CaV: darthjhawk (616 Hawkeye) vs sync1 (N52 Batgirl)

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#1  Edited By sync1

Challenge a Viner: @darthjhawk's 616 Hawkeye vs @sync1's N52 Batgirl

No Caption Provided

Hawkeye represented by: @darthjhawk

vs

No Caption Provided

Batgirl represented by: @sync1

Tale of the Tape:

Barbara "Batgirl" GordonvsClint "Hawkeye" Barton
5"7Height6"3
135Weight230
21AgeProbably like 30
  • Martial Arts
  • Gadgets
  • Superb Athleticism
  • Photographic Memory
Abilities
  • Master Archer & Marksman
  • Trick Arrows
  • H2H training
  • Exceptional Athlete

Rules

  • Standard New 52 versions/feats for Batgirl (pre-redesign composite)(sync1)
  • Standard 616 versions/feats for Hawkeye (darthjhawk)
  • In-character & determined to win by any means
  • Win by KO, Death, or Incap
  • *Both characters have basic knowledge of each other (ex: Hawkeye knows Batgirl was trained by Batman and has similar gadgets, Batgirl knows Hawkeye is a marksman and has trick arrows)
  • Fight starts across the street from each other, both behind cover (behind the taxis)

Map

No Caption Provided

CaV rules:

  • When voting is open, a series of users will be tagged for voting. You do not need to be tagged to vote, as voting is open to anybody.
  • 3 posts maximum for each debater
  • First user to obtain 5 votes (either @darthjhawk or @sync1) wins the debate. (or whoever has the most votes after a 1 week span).
  • The only way for your vote to count is if you leave an explanation as to why you have voted for the user (ex: vote for whoever you believe made the stronger argument that supports their respective character would win)
  • Please, don't leave a comment for anything other than asking for a T4V, or giving your vote and explaining why you voted for who. If you feel there are any flaws in our feats or arguments, PM us instead :)

Let the CaV begin @darthjhawk . You can post your intro or wait for me, up to you

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#3 darthjhawk  Moderator

@sync1: sweet I'll have a quick opener up soon.

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#5 darthjhawk  Moderator
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#9  Edited By darthjhawk  Moderator

Clint Barton, Hawkeye:

@sync1: For my op, I'll mainly be focusing on physical abilities, and most useful skills/gear.

No Caption Provided

Bio:

Clint Barton was born into an abusive family. He and his older brother Barney were the target of an abuse from their alcoholic father (Harold) and their mother (Edith) who didn't care. Tragedy, or perhaps poetic justice, struck when both parents died in a car accident caused by Harold's excessive drinking.

Soon after the accident, Clint and Barney were put into an orphanage. The two escaped soon after, dreaming of a better life. While on the run, the two fell in the company of a traveling circus. Needing food and shelter, Clint and Barney decided to do odd jobs for the performers.Two performers, Swordsman and Trickshot, saw potential in Clint and took him under their wing. Trickshot taught Clint archery while Swordsman taught Clint acrobatics and knife throwing. The duo became heroes to Clint as he began to surpass his masters.

Clint felt unappreciated and alone at the circus. His act, "The Amazing Hawkeye" got little attendance. Much to his dismay, his performance was ignored when Iron Man stopped a run away ride. After seeing Iron Man in action, Clint was inspired to use his archery skills to fight crime.

Powers and Abilities:

Though he has no superpowers, Hawkeye is still a force to be reckoned with. He is a peak-athlete, possessing exceptional strength, speed, stamina and agility. He is a world class archer and marksman. Hawkeye is also a talented acrobat, performing acrobatic maneuvers that an Olympic gold medalist would envy. He has been trained in hand-to-hand combat by Captain America, making him an accomplished combatant. Hawkeye is also shown to be a fine leader and strategist.

His most famous ability, Hawkeye is able to hurl or fire projectiles with extreme speed and accuracy. He is also able to fire or throw objects against walls or other obstacles, resulting in complicated rebounding situations. Hawkeye is also known for his utilization of several "trick arrows" containing explosives, electrical discharges, nets, etc.

Trick Arrows:

The assortment of arrows and arrowheads used by the archer.

  • Acid Arrow
  • Adamantium Arrow
  • Adhesive Arrow
  • Blunt Arrow
  • Bola Arrows
  • Boomerang Arrow
  • Cable Arrow
  • Diamond-Tipped Arrow
  • Electro-Arrow
  • E.M.P. (Electromagnetic Pulse) Arrow
  • Explosive Arrow
  • Flare Arrow
  • Freeze Arrow
  • Glue Arrow
  • Matter Disruption Arrow
  • Magnetic Arrow
  • Magno-volt Arrow
  • Net Arrow
  • Putty Arrow
  • Pym Particles Arrow
  • Rocket Arrow
  • Rust Arrow
  • Smoke Arrow
  • Sonic Arrow
  • Suction Cup Arrow
  • Taser Arrow
  • Tear Gas Arrow
  • Thermal Arrow
  • USB Arrow
  • Vibranium Arrow
  • Vibration Arrow

Physical Capabilities: At a Glance

Strength (Lifting and Striking):

Hawkeye, while a bit limited has some very good showings in strength.

Scan 1: Hawkeye is powerful enough to stagger the Wrecker with his blows.

Scan 2: Hawkeye is strong enough to lift a car off himself with his bow as leverage

Speed/Reaction:

This will be Hawkeye's second most useful stat in this fight as he is a casual bullet timer imo.

Scan 1: Dodges close range gunfire from a minigun

Scan 2: Evades automatic gunfire again in enclosed space

Scan 3: Lets loose two arrows and ducks behind cover before he can be shot at

Scan 4: Hits Venom faster than he can react then kicks Bullseye's bow before he can fire an arrow.

Endurance/Durability:

Scan 1-2: Gets blasted by Crimson Dynamo through a wall and is uninjured and is just fine.

Scan 3-4: Gets slammed into the ground hard enough to disrupt it by Charcoal and is just fine after.

Senses:

This will be Hawkeye's most useful stat to fight Blackout:

Scan 1: In a pitch black room, Hawkeye; uses solely his hearing to take out several thugs

Scan 2-4: While BLIND, Hawkeye beats his brother who was trained by Trickshot. Not full fight, can post if you want. Doubles for h2h skill as well.

Scan 5-6; Easily tells there were people following him via smell

The Skills, At a Glance:

Now I won't do too much here as this is my opener and I still have some of the best stuff. I'll mainly give a quick focus to archery right now and to h2h later as I believe it is going be difficult for Batgirl to get close to Hawkeye, and deal damage in CQC.

Marksmanship:

Scan 1: Five shots, five KOs, Self-explanatory I think.

Scan 2: Shoots an arrow and ricochets it off a wall to take someone out from behind

Scan 3: Angel prepares himself to dodge, yet still fails to avoid Hawkeye's arrow

Scan 4: Lands a headshot mid-backflip. Hawkeye is in the middle panel, right under Iron Man.

Scan 5: Outsmarts an invisible opponent making them expose their position, which is what I am assuming Blackout will be like.

Arrows:

Just some of the arrows Hawkeye can use to tag your team.

Scan 1: Hypersonic arrow bombards Radioactive Man with sound

Scan 2: Taser arrow causes Nul to cry out in pain

Scan 3: Several explosive arrows stagger Nul, an amped Hulk -

Scan 4-5: Putty Arrow capable of holding an adamantium Ultron

Initial Thoughts & Why Hawkeye Can Win:

I'll hold off on full blown strategy or saying outright that Hawkeye wins, until you have a chance to open yourself. But I will say a few words. In this battle Hawkeye wants to win by any means possible. The thing about an in-character Hawkeye, is that he won't mind using some of his best arrows to take down Batgirl down as soon as possible. I'm not saying the fight will be over fast, I think Hawkeye does have an advantage due to the starting distance, skills, and arrow versatility.

Why he can win:

  • Physicals that can rival Batgirl's
  • Distance and senses will allow him to keep Batgirl in a position most advantageous to him
  • Arrow versatility and power rivals Batgirl's own gear.

That's all for me you're up. Good Luck!

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#10 darthjhawk  Moderator

@asgardianbrony: Thank you, and hope you enjoy it!

@sync1:Post up, depending on when you put yours up, I can have mine in tonight, driving 10 hours later in the morning. Good Luck with your post!

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#11  Edited By cokirules

T4V

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#12  Edited By sync1

@darthjhawk:

"You were always meant to be Batgirl, Barbara." - Bruce Wayne

Alright straight off the bat there's a couple things I notice: Clint's only real way of winning is through trick arrows. Because let's face it, once Barbara gets in close, it's over for Hawkeye (which I will get into later in the post). And i think that's exactly what would happen, because as far as what i'm aware of and the feats you've presented so far; there's no compelling evidence that suggests Clint can hit Barbara with an arrow. Below are speed feats of her being what you like to call being a casual bullet timer.

Dodges a speedblitz, then rushes gunmen shooting SMG bullets at her

.

Another example of dodging gunfire
more scans
Swerves a shot from Starling (who is a pretty damn good shot herself), then KOs her.
Disarms Detective McKenna before she can shoot
Close quarter combat against Joker's men; able to dodge point blank gunfire and KO the entire group.
Fast enough to tackle Bruce out of the way from SWAT machine gun fire before they can shoot him

As you can see from the scans above, Barbara is insanelyfast, and coupled with her versatility in gadgets and consistent showcase of speed with her batarangs, she has more than enough capability to close the distance with Hawkeye. Let's look at some feats of her being quick with her gadgets (some bigger names to mention, like Captain Boomerang and Livewire)

Batarang > boomerang
Batarang > boomerang

Richochets ONE batarang off THREE guys, knocking all three out.

Quick on the draw; Barbara is able to fling a batarang in her brother's eye before he could react to save their mom.
more scans of batarang usage
Hits a guy with a batarang before he could react. (Note, similar to Cassandra Cain (and current Dick Grayson), Barbara can read your body movement and predict what you are going to do to a small degree, which allows her to pull off feats like this. In this panel, Barbara clearly state she read his body language and knew what he was going to do next.
She richochets a single batarang and KO's three cops wearing RIOT GEAR. This is a testament to her speed, strength, and accuracy with her equipment.
Good showcase of speed when deploying her foam bombs. Didn't quite work on Livewire because of her powers. However, Clint is just... Clint so it should be quite effective on him, and will be suffocating his limbs in seconds.

How strong is Barbara's equipment?

Her foam grenade is able to prevent a full grown tiger from mauling through it, (not to mention the radius the foam expands in a few seconds is impressive and noteworthy in this fight. all it takes is one to expand and totally handicap Hawkeye from using his bow).
Her foam grenade is able to prevent a full grown tiger from mauling through it, (not to mention the radius the foam expands in a few seconds is impressive and noteworthy in this fight. all it takes is one to expand and totally handicap Hawkeye from using his bow).
Has equipment to defuse missiles
Can use her grappling hook as weapon. This thing is strong enough to destroy drones
...and KO bad guys
And of course, her explosive batarangs (these are all superhumans being thrown back by the explosion)
And of course, her explosive batarangs (these are all superhumans being thrown back by the explosion)

Now as far as durability goes, let's look at the scans:

Withstands direct flamethrower
Rest of the scan above. Not only did she survive the flamethrower; she survived an explosion and got up out of the rubble standing. This is a very impressive showing of not only her durability, but her heart as well. She has the heart of a warrior, and will make it very difficult for Hawkeye to put her down.
Takes shots from superhuman Gretel, including blocking a blade with her gauntlets. Is completely fine right after.
Gets up from being stabbed, then proceeds to beat the hell out of Knightfall.
Gets up from a direct blast from Grotesque, then beats him up.
Cape is able to withstand metahuman acid for a brief moment (the acid was strong enough to burn through metal), long enough for Barbara to take the cape off and proceed to beat the dude up.

So what we're taking from these durability feats is that one, her suit is fireproof and is able to withstand explosives and electric blasts. Two, she has an iron chin, and is able to trade blows with metahumans. And three, she just doesn't give up.

Another point I would like to mention is Barbara's hand-to-hand skills. She shares the ability to read body language with Dick Grayson, and they both use it as an advantage to predict what their opponent is going to do. With that being said, she has picked up on how her former teammate moves and thinks, and was able to actually catch Nightwing off-guard in a brief scuffle.

This feat is impressive considering the skill level Nightwing is currently at. Here's a quote from @jayaaerow about NW beating Batman in NW 30:

"(Note: Yes, he did, in fact, beat Bruce. According to Tim Seeley in an interview, he did win. Bruce did not hold back. He explained that Bruce did think he could take him on at full strength. And it is he who gave up and recieved bandages. The Batcave is also partially destroyed. Many attempt to debunct this feat as Batman holding back. He did not.) (Nightwing 30)"

With that being said, I attribute this feat to Barbara's unorthodox fight style and ability to read movement. Barbara's ruthless ballet-based fighting style (along with the fact that she likes to mix up her fighting with her gadgets) makes her a dangerous opponent because it catches people off-guard, and Barbara takes advantage of that. Especially to someone like Clint who isn't particularly as skilled as Nightwing in H2H combat, and he hasn't fought someone with the a similar fighting style to Barbara. She's willing to fight dirty and hit you where you're most vulnerable. It is actually a common trait for her to fight dirty and brutally. Let's take a look at some H2H feats:

Knees a vampire in the nuts
Uses unorthodox fighting style to defeat Ragdoll (who is a metahuman)
Lands a nasty combo on Dinah during sparring. Dinah attempts an arm submission that Barbara gets out from moments later . They call it a day. If you ask me, this is a pretty damn impressive feat.
Some more of Batgirl vs Black Canary (except this time Barbara is outnumbered, and she still wins this exchange)
Barbara manhandles a full grown tiger.
Barbara drops a pissed Poison Ivy with a straight, and shuts her up.
Batgirl beating up Talons (same ones were giving Catwoman a hard time)
This last scan is particularly how I see Clint going down to Barbara in H2h combat.

These feats are just the few of many examples that prove Batgirl has more than what it takes to take down Clint in this fight. To put it this way, I think Barbara is just too fast, too skilled, and too versatile and unorthodox for Clint to handle. From the feats presented thus far and the research i've done on Hawkeye; there isn't enough feats (or any really) that suggest Hawkeye can tag and person who moves like Barbara does. It's just not happening. We're talking about the same Barbara that dodges bullets on a daily and grew up competing with Nightwing in acrobatic ability. One major factor also which pretty much confirms that Barbara is going to to close the distance, is that Clint is going to be having to avoid various gadget attacks as well (which include grappling hooks, bolas, batarangs, foam grenades, and explosive batarangs.) All of which can result in win either through a KO win (via headshot with batarang), or easy INCAP win (via foam grenades and bolas). And if it made matters worse for Clint; Barbara's suit can withstand explosives and superhuman electricity attacks. Her cape is durable enough protect her from fire and metahuman acid blasts, and Barbara's gauntlets have shock plates in them. All Barbara needs to do is close the distance(which i am strongly confident Barbara will do), get close and put on a striking clinic. In the actual h2h fight, Clint is not going to be ready for Barbara's fast, brutal, and tactical fight style, and quite frankly, I believe he will be foamed up or bola'd up before he can even put up his fight stance. Her feats have put her in at least Black Canary's level in h2h skill. Her ability to read her opponents movement, paired with her h2h skill and variety of gadgets at her disposal, will make it easy for Barbara to decide which of her many ways of beating Hawkeye she wants to use to win the battle.

Batgirl wins this fight.

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#13  Edited By sync1
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#14 darthjhawk  Moderator

Counter and Strategy I:

Alright straight off the bat there's a couple things I notice: Clint's only real way of winning is through trick arrows. Because let's face it, once Barbara gets in close, it's over for Hawkeye (which I will get into later in the post). And i think that's exactly what would happen, because as far as what i'm aware of and the feats you've presented so far; there's no compelling evidence that suggests Clint can hit Barbara with an arrow. Below are speed feats of her being what you like to call being a casual bullet timer.

It feels we are only just getting into this and Hawkeye is being underestimated. Even with the feats shown I have not seen anything that makes Barbara faster than Clint. If anything I could see an argument for them being equals and that is being generous. Another thing is that it seems as though you are downplaying Clint's h2h skill, and use of his bow. But we will get into that.

As you can see from the scans above, Barbara is insanely fast, and coupled with her versatility in gadgets and consistent showcase of speed with her batarangs, she has more than enough capability to close the distance with Hawkeye.

You make it seem as if Hawkeye is just going to be standing still while Barbara tries to rush him. Hawkeye can easily fight with his bow&arrow in CQC and on the move, ill just drop these here. The first one is pretty self explanatory in my book. My scans seems to be in reverse, try and bear with it, benefits of a Mac.

"This is how Hawkeye took down seventeen hired guns without killing a single one of them while avoiding a monster and still totally following the plan, wondering why the Fury wasn't following the plan, then realizing that those things crawling out of the gate look like they might be the things the Fury had babies with"

Hawkeye, with a damaged bow, manages to seamlessly, weave through a crowd and nail, who I believe is Crossbones who is on the other side of a city block, and still manages to nail him with a perfect non-lethal shot and take him down. This is a guy who gives Captain America some trouble. And why mention Cap?

Because Hawkeye, extensively trains and spars in CQC with Cap. I consider Captain America to be much more impressive than Batgirl, or Nightwing, and arguably more impressive than Batman himself. Consequently, I do not see Barbara if she can close the distance being able to have any significant edge over Hawkeye in CQC.

As far as gear versatility you have only shown batarangs, explosive batarangs, foam, and a grappling hook. Hawkeye has all of these and so much more. So until you show she has more versatility than this, Clint has the much better gear just by this.

Arrows:

Just some of the arrows Hawkeye can use that matches and imo outdoes the power and versatility of Babs gear.

Scan 1: Hypersonic arrow bombards Radioactive Man with sound

Scan 2: Taser arrow causes Nul to cry out in pain

Scan 3: Several explosive arrows stagger Nul, an amped Hulk -

Scan 4-5: Putty Arrow capable of holding an adamantium Ultron

Now as far as durability goes, let's look at the scans:

Withstands direct flamethrower
Rest of the scan above. Not only did she survive the flamethrower; she survived an explosion and got up out of the rubble standing. This is a very impressive showing of not only her durability, but her heart as well. She has the heart of a warrior, and will make it very difficult for Hawkeye to put her down.
Takes shots from superhuman Gretel, including blocking a blade with her gauntlets. Is completely fine right after.
Gets up from being stabbed, then proceeds to beat the hell out of Knightfall.
Gets up from a direct blast from Grotesque, then beats him up.
Cape is able to withstand metahuman acid for a brief moment (the acid was strong enough to burn through metal), long enough for Barbara to take the cape off and proceed to beat the dude up.

So what we're taking from these durability feats is that one, her suit is fireproof and is able to withstand explosives and electric blasts. Two, she has an iron chin, and is able to trade blows with metahumans. And three, she just doesn't give up.

Impressive, but Clint could replicate all of these feats without something like Batgirl's armor, but imo might not even have too as he would be fast enough to avoid some of these like the flamethrower, Gretel, or the acid.

Another point I would like to mention is Barbara's hand-to-hand skills. She shares the ability to read body language with Dick Grayson, and they both use it as an advantage to predict what their opponent is going to do. With that being said, she has picked up on how her former teammate moves and thinks, and was able to actually catch Nightwing off-guard in a brief scuffle.

This feat is impressive considering the skill level Nightwing is currently at. Here's a quote from @jayaaerow about NW beating Batman in NW 30:

"(Note: Yes, he did, in fact, beat Bruce. According to Tim Seeley in an interview, he did win. Bruce did not hold back. He explained that Bruce did think he could take him on at full strength. And it is he who gave up and recieved bandages. The Batcave is also partially destroyed. Many attempt to debunct this feat as Batman holding back. He did not.) (Nightwing 30)"

Okay this Nightwing feat. Nightwing wasn't even really trying to fight her. She caught him off-guard because he came worried as a friend, not to pick a fight. While the Batman fight was impressive for him, I don't see anything here that shows that she actually beat him, while he was truly fighting back. This feat and the sparring one for Black Canary were both cheap shots from people who were not fighting at their best, (not really trying imo) or trying to get her angry (Black Canary).

With that being said, I attribute this feat to Barbara's unorthodox fight style and ability to read movement. Barbara's ruthless ballet-based fighting style (along with the fact that she likes to mix up her fighting with her gadgets) makes her a dangerous opponent because it catches people off-guard, and Barbara takes advantage of that. Especially to someone like Clint who isn't particularly as skilled as Nightwing in H2H combat, and he hasn't fought someone with the a similar fighting style to Barbara. She's willing to fight dirty and hit you where you're most vulnerable. It is actually a common trait for her to fight dirty and brutally. Let's take a look at some H2H feats:

Where is this move-reading ability? I haven't seen it once yet. The fight with Dick Grayson was comparing her ballet style to his acrobatics. And that comes from their shared history, not move reading. Also as I stated above Clint was trained extensively by Captain America, so I am pretty sure he does not get outmatch in skill, but lets compare feats since you've shown better h2h feats against fodder characters whose h2h skills are not that impressive and the ones against established fighters are not very strong & solid feats in my book:

Hawkeye nearly beats Mockingbird to death in hand to hand--they both start out mind controlled but Clint and Bobbi finds a way to counteract it later on.

Now lets reference his Ronin days in New Avengers, Hawkeye can match several of Babs' metahuman h2h feats with his own, and is capabe of taking on and defeating multiple Hand Ninja at once. The Hand are some of the best h2h fodder around, so that is no small feat.

Now this is an impressive feat of Clint's. Here he takes on and defeats Steve Rogers in an impressive display of combat speed, and skill, and trick arrows to down Cap. I haven't seen anything from you that proves Barbara can take out someone on Cap's level in a fight that both parties are equally trying to win.

These feats are just the few of many examples that prove Batgirl has more than what it takes to take down Clint in this fight. To put it this way, I think Barbara is just too fast, too skilled, and too versatile and unorthodox for Clint to handle. From the feats presented thus far and the research i've done on Hawkeye; there isn't enough feats (or any really) that suggest Hawkeye can tag and person who moves like Barbara does. It's just not happening. We're talking about the same Barbara that dodges bullets on a daily and grew up competing with Nightwing in acrobatic ability. One major factor also which pretty much confirms that Barbara is going to to close the distance, is that Clint is going to be having to avoid various gadget attacks as well (which include grappling hooks, bolas, batarangs, foam grenades, and explosive batarangs.) All of which can result in win either through a KO win (via headshot with batarang), or easy INCAP win (via foam grenades and bolas). And if it made matters worse for Clint; Barbara's suit can withstand explosives and superhuman electricity attacks. Her cape is durable enough protect her from fire and metahuman acid blasts, and Barbara's gauntlets have shock plates in them. All Barbara needs to do is close the distance(which i am strongly confident Barbara will do), get close and put on a striking clinic. In the actual h2h fight, Clint is not going to be ready for Barbara's fast, brutal, and tactical fight style, and quite frankly, I believe he will be foamed up or bola'd up before he can even put up his fight stance. Her feats have put her in at least Black Canary's level in h2h skill. Her ability to read her opponents movement, paired with her h2h skill and variety of gadgets at her disposal, will make it easy for Barbara to decide which of her many ways of beating Hawkeye she wants to use to win the battle.

Batgirl wins this fight.

Just a few things from this:

  • I think you've lowballed Clint's CQC considerably, and I feel if you had researched a bit more thoroughly you would have seen the scans I put out.
  • I have not seen anything yet that makes a string case as to why Batgirl has an edge over Clint in speed or versatility when I have displayed Clint's at least equal speed, and overall more effective versatility with his weapons, the bulk of which I still did not even get into.
  • Her suit from what I have seen let her survive those things, not necessarily tank or withstand them, plus Hawkeye's explosives are more powerful than the ones shown.
  • Closing the distance, while you think gives Barbara an edge, actually makes Clint's job easier to hit her a close range with an arrow, mix up a h2h/arrow combo or just straight up use his arrows with his hands to take her out of this fight
  • The feats you have shown against established fighters, were not those at their best or even trying to seriously fight, while Hawkeye has a solid and definitive win over Captain America, someone more impressive than Black Canary or Nightwing.
  • You haven't displayed this move reading ability, but rather a knowledge on Nightwing due to their history.
  • Her gadgets have a limited variety, whereas Hawkeye has so many more, that I have not shown yet.

Conclusion: Hawkeye Wins.

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#15  Edited By darthjhawk  Moderator

@sync1:

Post up. Your move friend. Good Luck!

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@darthjhawk: Nice counter post. I'm going to start working on my post now

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#18  Edited By darthjhawk  Moderator

@sync1: Thanks, your opener/counter was great as well.

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This is interesting, t4v

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#20  Edited By sync1

Dude i'm so sorry for the late post man, had some real lifing to do lol. Anyway without further ado here's my 2nd post:

@darthjhawk said:

Counter and Strategy I:

"It feels we are only just getting into this and Hawkeye is being underestimated. Even with the feats shown I have not seen anything that makes Barbara faster than Clint. If anything I could see an argument for them being equals and that is being generous. Another thing is that it seems as though you are downplaying Clint's h2h skill, and use of his bow. But we will get into that."

Only thing being downplayed here is Barbara's intelligence. Her brain works like a computer, and she's able to think further ahead than normal people can. In fact she's so smart that she's able to turn off her photographic memory, so that she's able to think even faster (according to comic book logic). Let's look at an example of that ability below, when she's able to defeat Teacher, a character who is much faster than Barbara.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
This scan above is their first encounter, and Barbara loses because she's just too fast. When Barbara learns how to turn off her photographic memory, she's able to predict Teacher's movements and defeat her.
Defeats "Teacher"

Teacher has meta-human enhanced thinking, and has trained other metahuman assassins like the Moth, and others whom names i can't recall right now. But let's look at their feats below, they all manage to give Barbara a hard time, and are all inhumanly fast and thinking capabilities' are enhanced:

Notice how fast the assassin is moving, and in the last scan Fruitbat deflects the knife.
Forces Batgirl to retreat, Cape is able to deflect Hawkeye's standard tip arrows*
Moth vs Barbara in MMA (first encounter), Moth catches Barbara off guard when Barbara sees her tattoo and figures out she's an assassin
Moth vs Batgirl (second encounter), a fully focused Batgirl defeats Moth no problem.

Barbara's genius level intellect gives her an edge in this fight, which is something I think you're undermining. She's able to fight people who are faster than her. But that's not to undermine Barbara's speed as well. In a lot of her fights she likes to mix it up with her equipment as well, so let's look at her speed/equipment feats below:

Fights Xa-Du, a Superman villain. She effortlessly dodges his heat vision and attacks, and has a strong flashbang batarang
Swerves gunshot point blank by flipping the gunmen before the gun can even shoot
Barbara is no slouch in accuracy, she's able to do impressive trick shots with her batarangs

As you can see, she's fast in speed and at drawing her batarang. She's even more deadly when she uses her gear. To get a better idea of how strong her equipment is, let's look at some feats below:

EMP batarang can take out a whole building, including everything electronic inside
Batarang can cut through Poison Ivy's vines
Strong enough to hold Huntress's body weight
Strong enough to hold Huntress's body weight

You make it seem as if Hawkeye is just going to be standing still while Barbara tries to rush him. Hawkeye can easily fight with his bow&arrow 1on1 CQC and on the move.

Hawkeye, with a damaged bow, manages to seamlessly, weave through a crowd and nail, who I believe is Crossbones who is on the other side of a city block, and still manages to nail him with a perfect non-lethal shot and take him down. This is a guy who gives Captain America some trouble. And why mention Cap?

Because Hawkeye, extensively trains and spars in CQC with Cap. I consider Captain America to be much more impressive than Batgirl, or Nightwing, and arguably more impressive than Batman himself. Consequently, I do not see Barbara if she can close the distance being able to have any significant edge over Hawkeye in CQC.

Crossbones was running in a straight line... Barbara could chuck a bowling ball and hit him from that range. And as far as Hawkeye's "CQC training" , this is about as much as it will do for him:

Stephanie Brown's training was meaningless against Barbara
Stephanie Brown's training was meaningless against Barbara

"As far as gear versatility you have only shown batarangs, explosive batarangs, foam, and a grappling hook. Hawkeye has all of these and so much more. So until you show she has more versatility than this, Clint has the much better gear just by this.

Arrows:

Just some of the arrows Hawkeye can use that matches and imo outdoes the power and versatility of Babs gear.

Scan 1: Hypersonic arrow bombards Radioactive Man with sound

Scan 2: Taser arrow causes Nul to cry out in pain

Scan 3: Several explosive arrows stagger Nul, an amped Hulk -

Scan 4-5: Putty Arrow capable of holding an adamantium Ultron"

And notice, ALL of these guys are slower than Barbara. Good feats, but redundant if he's not going to actually hit Barbara with anything.

"Clint could replicate all of these (durability) feats without something like Batgirl's armor, but imo might not even have too as he would be fast enough to avoid some of these like the flamethrower, Gretel, or the acid."

Oh come on, so Clint is fireproof? Show me a scan of him tanking a flamethrower and then we're talking. Also, going to need some more feats of him dodging something like heat vision casually, before we can even assume he's on the same level as Batgirl in terms of speed.

"Okay this Nightwing feat. Nightwing wasn't even really trying to fight her. She caught him off-guard because he came worried as a friend, not to pick a fight. While the Batman fight was impressive for him, I don't see anything here that shows that she actually beat him, while he was truly fighting back. This feat and the sparring one for Black Canary were both cheap shots from people who were not fighting at their best, (not really trying imo) or trying to get her angry (Black Canary)."

I was saying Nightwing is good at not being caught off-guard, because of HIS ability to read opponents (he's said he has this ability many times in the comics, don't see the need to bring feats for it). Therefore, Barbara is evidently good at catching people off-guard. Who's to say Clint will see Barbara coming, with her smoke bombs and unorthodox stealthy attacks?

As far as Black Canary goes; why would she purposely get beat up by Barbara? Twice? You're just in denial if you really think she was holding back. This isn't the first time they went toe to toe. Barbara has other times as well, including in staff fighting and when Dinah was mind controlled; Barbara was doing just fine defending from Canary. At this point, if you read their comics; it's basically a given that Batgirl is at LEAST on the same level as Black Canary in fight skill.

Where is this move-reading ability? I haven't seen it once yet. The fight with Dick Grayson was comparing her ballet style to his acrobatics. And that comes from their shared history, not move reading. Also as I stated above Clint was trained extensively by Captain America, so I am pretty sure he does not get outmatch in skill, but lets compare feats since you've shown better h2h feats against fodder characters whose h2h skills are not that impressive and the ones against established fighters are not very strong & solid feats in my book:

I've gave feats for her move reading ability above. Also, training extensively means nothing if you have no skill to back it up.

Hawkeye nearly beats Mockingbird to death in hand to hand--they both start out mind controlled but Clint and Bobbi finds a way to counteract it later on.

They were dead even more than half the time... this feat to me, doesn't prove anything we didn't already know. And who even is Mockingbird haha she hasn't done anything impressive IIRC.

Now lets reference his Ronin days in New Avengers, Hawkeye can match several of Babs' metahuman h2h feats with his own, and is capabe of taking on and defeating multiple Hand Ninja at once. The Hand are some of the best h2h fodder around, so that is no small feat.

Match?? Talons are significantly better than Hand Ninjas. Plus Barbara has already beaten League of Assassin ninjas, who are basically on the same skill level as Hand Ninjas:

Barbara easily fights multiple League of Assassin ninjas

But without a doubt, Talons are the much better fodder than both Hand Ninjas and League of Shadows ninjas, and Barbara has even defeated one of the better Talons "Strix":

And another thing you're forgetting is Barbara's ruthlessness when it comes to fighting. When has Hawkeye fought someone as savage as Batgirl?

Barbara eye gouges a metahuman

Now let's look at your one example of Clint beating Cap:

Now this is an impressive feat of Clint's. Here he takes on and defeats Steve Rogers in an impressive display of combat speed, and skill, and trick arrows to down Cap. I haven't seen anything from you that proves Barbara can take out someone on Cap's level in a fight that both parties are equally trying to win.

That is exactly what this is: just one example. There are numerous other examples that suggest otherwise. You have already shown us multiple feats of Cap dodging his arrows like slight work, and even a couple where he beats Clint. To me, this feat tells a very inconsistent story, and if we're going by which feats are stronger; then it has to be consistent. This feat cannot be accomplished consistently by any means. Therefore, to be riding off this feat as Clint's "normal" fighting skill would be a very unsubstantiated argument, when people like Black Widow can dodge Clint's arrows:

No Caption Provided

Just a few things from this:

  • I think you've lowballed Clint's CQC considerably, and I feel if you had researched a bit more thoroughly you would have seen the scans I put out.

I think you haven't shown enough evidence that supports your claims. I feel like i've provided more than enough evidence to back up my statements.

  • I have not seen anything yet that makes a string case as to why Batgirl has an edge over Clint in speed or versatility when I have displayed Clint's at least equal speed, and overall more effective versatility with his weapons, the bulk of which I still did not even get into.

Heat vision, fireballs, acid balls, tasers, bullets; all easily dodged by Barbara. She has more point blank bullet dodging feats than Clint's got bullet dodging feats in general! Honestly there's not much use in me trying to argue Barbara is faster because i'm sitting here comparing the feats you've presented and the feats i've presented and Barbara is clearly and visibly faster. So until you provide me some more solid evidence of Clint being able to dodge laser beams of Xa-Du's caliber, or better yet even be able to consistently dodge gunfire from point blank, then i'm not convinced at all that Clint is even at Barbara's level, nonetheless faster.

  • Her suit from what I have seen let her survive those things, not necessarily tank or withstand them, plus Hawkeye's explosives are more powerful than the ones shown.

Can Hawkeye hit Barbara with an arrow? That's the biggest question you have yet to provide any evidence for.

  • Closing the distance, while you think gives Barbara an edge, actually makes Clint's job easier to hit her a close range with an arrow, mix up a h2h/arrow combo or just straight up use his arrows with his hands to take her out of this fight

Won't make it easier if she's in range to hit Clint with a foam bomb. All it takes is one to completely immobilize him. She also has the gear necessary to make it easier to hit him with a foam bomb, like flash bangs, bolas, EMPs, smoke bombs, and all types of other batarangs. To be honest i don't see this being a h2h fight until Barbara exhausted all of her options with her tech; and if that's the case then Clint is going down hard with a combo of bat tech and h2h fighting.

  • The feats you have shown against established fighters, were not those at their best or even trying to seriously fight, while Hawkeye has a solid and definitive win over Captain America, someone more impressive than Black Canary or Nightwing.

Yeah and Hawkeye also lost all the rest of their encounters. Can't keep riding off an inconsistent feat, because Hawkeye can't do it every single time whereas Barbara has consistently been able to hold her own against Canary. Consistency > ONE "win"

  • You haven't displayed this move reading ability, but rather a knowledge on Nightwing due to their history.

The ability is up above. look through the scans

  • Her gadgets have a limited variety, whereas Hawkeye has so many more, that I have not shown yet.

What you see as limited, i see as all she needs. Seriously, one foam bomb is all it takes. I'll give you a chance to show me some solid evidence that proves Clint can dodge her gear, otherwise i'ma assume he's getting foamed up then KO'd. Barbara is smarter, faster, and more skilled of a fighter based off of the feats presented. She uses unorthodox methods of striking, which i believe Clint will not be prepared for, and is more than capable of taking Clint out with a cheapshot to the nuts or eyes. Either way, clean or dirty, with gadgets or without; Hawkeye is going down.

Conclusion: Hawkeye Wins loses. :)

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#21  Edited By darthjhawk  Moderator

@sync1:

Dude i'm so sorry for the late post man, had some real lifing to do lol. Anyway without further ado here's my 2nd post

Nah no worries man, its life. Glad to see you're doing okay, nice post, will do my best to respond soon. Also this should be the last post right? Since we only have three each max.

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#22 darthjhawk  Moderator

Counters & Strategy II:

@sync1: Well then I'll treat this as the final post then we can go to votes. Cool?

Only thing being downplayed here is Barbara's intelligence. Her brain works like a computer, and she's able to think further ahead than normal people can.

For starters, I'm not sure why this is too relevant here. I'm pretty sure I didn't mention anything about downplaying Barbara's intelligence. Its Barbara Gordon after all, it would be foolish of me to say she isn't smart. But okay sure, Hawkeye may not as booksmart as Batgirl, when it comes to combat he is a master tactital combatant and strategist himself.

In fact she's so smart that she's able to turn off her photographic memory, so that she's able to think even faster (according to comic book logic). Let's look at an example of that ability below, when she's able to defeat Teacher, a character who is much faster than Barbara.

Teacher has meta-human enhanced thinking, and has trained other metahuman assassins like the Moth, and others whom names i can't recall right now. But let's look at their feats below, they all manage to give Barbara a hard time, and are all inhumanly fast and thinking capabilities' are enhanced:

None of these characters seem nearly as fast in combat speed or reaction as Venom, Bullseye or Captain America, who Clint has either beaten or hit them before they could react. Here is the Cap fight again for reference

Now for Venom and Bullseye: Mind you Venom just bit him in the shoulder making this more impressive since he could make Venom cry out in pain as well. Remember these are guys that have gone toe to toe with Spider-man and Daredevil respectively, bith very impressive in their own right. I won't go into each character because this is about Hawkeye.

No Caption Provided

But in your own words you said this:

But let's look at their feats below, they all manage to give Barbara a hard time, and are all inhumanly fast and thinking capabilities' are enhanced:

Capatin America alone is greater than any of those metahumans in thinking and combat speed, and they gave Barbara a hard time? That won't be good for her, going up against Clint.

Barbara's genius level intellect gives her an edge in this fight, which is something I think you're undermining. She's able to fight people who are faster than her.

Again, when did I ever undermine her intelligence? Can you tell me when I did? Are you saying when I asked for showings of her move reading?

But that's not to undermine Barbara's speed as well. In a lot of her fights she likes to mix it up with her equipment as well, so let's look at her speed/equipment feats below:

In a lot of her fights she likes to mix it up with her equipment as well, so let's look at her speed/equipment feats below:

Fights Xa-Du, a Superman villain. She effortlessly dodges his heat vision and attacks, and has a strong flashbang batarang
Swerves gunshot point blank by flipping the gunmen before the gun can even shoot
Barbara is no slouch in accuracy, she's able to do impressive trick shots with her batarangs

As you can see, she's fast in speed and at drawing her batarang. She's even more deadly when she uses her gear. To get a better idea of how strong her equipment is, let's look at some feats below:

EMP batarang can take out a whole building, including everything electronic inside
Batarang can cut through Poison Ivy's vines

This is all well and good, but its nothing Clint can't replicate himself, I have already proven how he is fast enough and skilled enough to do so; and I still don't see how this puts Barbara above Clint in terms of speed when Clint can dodge blasts from Celestials and still fire arrows faster than it can react to him.

No Caption Provided

Or do this:

Where despite being trapped under debris and having broken ribs and a broken wrist, he manages to shoot Bruce Banner out of the way of a bullet that was fired at PBR.

Crossbones was running in a straight line... Barbara could chuck a bowling ball and hit him from that range. And as far as Hawkeye's "CQC training" , this is about as much as it will do for him:

Stephanie Brown's training was meaningless against Barbara
Stephanie Brown's training was meaningless against Barbara

First off I would love for you to show me evidence Barbara can do that through a crowd of people, with a damaged "bowling ball". And second come on man, don't disrespect Hawkeye like that by comparing him to Spolier especially with the combat feats I just showed you.

And notice, ALL of these guys are slower than Barbara. Good feats, but redundant if he's not going to actually hit Barbara with anything.

Except that I have shown you Hawkeye's speed, with or without a bow. In addition that this was meant to display Hawkeye's gear over Barbara's and his explosives are just a start.

Oh come on, so Clint is fireproof? Show me a scan of him tanking a flamethrower and then we're talking. Also, going to need some more feats of him dodging something like heat vision casually, before we can even assume he's on the same level as Batgirl in terms of speed.

Well then here we go.

As far as flames/heat:

Withstands Typhoid Mary's Pyrokinesis enough to K.O her, or

No Caption Provided

Tanking Harrier's missle and PBR explosion which eclipses a simple flamethrower in heat and power.

And energy projection along with the above Celestial feat:

Scan 1: He saves Skein from Skul's energy blast, more impressive because he moved someone else out of the way of the blast.

Scan 2: Easily dodges an energy blast from The Fury, a Captain Britain and X-Men villain.

I was saying Nightwing is good at not being caught off-guard, because of HIS ability to read opponents (he's said he has this ability many times in the comics, don't see the need to bring feats for it). Therefore, Barbara is evidently good at catching people off-guard. Who's to say Clint will see Barbara coming, with her smoke bombs and unorthodox stealthy attacks?

But like I said, why would he see Barbara as an opponent in that instance, until after the fight started? He came there as a friend, not to fight. If he was actually coming to fight her or for that matter actually facing her direction when she attacked him, I could see your point here. Clint starts the fight with her in sight, so she won't be cheap shotting him like she did Nightwing.

As far as Black Canary goes; why would she purposely get beat up by Barbara? Twice? You're just in denial if you really think she was holding back. This isn't the first time they went toe to toe. Barbara has other times as well, including in staff fighting and when Dinah was mind controlled; Barbara was doing just fine defending from Canary. At this point, if you read their comics; it's basically a given that Batgirl is at LEAST on the same level as Black Canary in fight skill.

I say BC is holding back because you said this:

Lands a nasty combo on Dinah during sparring

What is sparring? It is training, tell me why and how BC was going all out especially when your scan shows her deliberately goading Barbara:

No Caption Provided

And stopping once Barbara hits her the first time until she gets sucker punched :

No Caption Provided

And your second set:

Some more of Batgirl vs Black Canary (except this time Barbara is outnumbered, and she still wins this exchange)

Black Canary is literally trying to figure out a way to not hurt Barbara and even says she is undercover. Batgirl lands hits when BC underestimates her or again isn't really trying her best to fight her.She didn't even use her Canary Cry. Don't say I'm in denial when I am using evidence from your own scans.

I've gave feats for her move reading ability above. Also, training extensively means nothing if you have no skill to back it up.

I'm sorry what? So you're telling me that training doesn't develop skill? Really?

They were dead even more than half the time... this feat to me, doesn't prove anything we didn't already know. And who even is Mockingbird haha she hasn't done anything impressive IIRC.

I'm not going to make a MB respect thread in a Hawkeye debate, but she has rivaled Captain America in skill before, and can dodge bullets at PBR.

Match?? Talons are significantly better than Hand Ninjas. Plus Barbara has already beaten League of Assassin ninjas, who are basically on the same skill level as Hand Ninjas

But without a doubt, Talons are the much better fodder than both Hand Ninjas and League of Shadows ninjas, and Barbara has even defeated one of the better Talons "Strix":

Not saying Hand > Talon, but Hawkeye and Batgirl can both battle fodder well. That is what I'm saying. And it looks like Batgirl defeated her through sheer luck by kicking her into an explosive. Plus just earlier in that issue Strix dominated her. But if can prove Barbara outskilled/outfought her than I'm down to be corrected.

And another thing you're forgetting is Barbara's ruthlessness when it comes to fighting. When has Hawkeye fought someone as savage as Batgirl?

No I didn't. I mentioned when I was talking about how she cheap-shotted Nightwing and BC. Sucker Punching is savage no matter who does it. Hawkeye has taken hits from Deadpool, fought Hulk, and the Thunderbolts ( a team of former villains). One of those is Deadpool and another most known form is labeled The Savage Hulk.

That is exactly what this is: just one example. There are numerous other examples that suggest otherwise. You have already shown us multiple feats of Cap dodging his arrows like slight work, and even a couple where he beats Clint. To me, this feat tells a very inconsistent story, and if we're going by which feats are stronger; then it has to be consistent. This feat cannot be accomplished consistently by any means. Therefore, to be riding off this feat as Clint's "normal" fighting skill would be a very unsubstantiated argument, when people like Black Widow can dodge Clint's arrows:

First off, show me those other examples please, no sarcasm here, i would genuinely love to know where I missed those. Next what multiple feats feats did I show of Cap here, he is only featured in the above fight. And lastly re-read this scan please. BW is literally cut in the second panel when does she dodge? She says it cuts deep and you can even see her blood. You are giving me more proof to Hawkeye's arrow speed. As far as I can tell this one feat I have shown beats out your own still.

No Caption Provided

Final Points:

I think you haven't shown enough evidence that supports your claims. I feel like i've provided more than enough evidence to back up my statements.

Except that I have, and your efforts to debunk them, have backfired in my favor, and even given more evidence to Hawekeye being able to win.

Heat vision, fireballs, acid balls, tasers, bullets; all easily dodged by Barbara. She has more point blank bullet dodging feats than Clint's got bullet dodging feats in general! Honestly there's not much use in me trying to argue Barbara is faster because i'm sitting here comparing the feats you've presented and the feats i've presented and Barbara is clearly and visibly faster. So until you provide me some more solid evidence of Clint being able to dodge laser beams of Xa-Du's caliber, or better yet even be able to consistently dodge gunfire from point blank, then i'm not convinced at all that Clint is even at Barbara's level, nonetheless faster.

Based on what I have shown Clint is at the very least equal to Barbara and I think he is faster. And since you seem to want to continue to lowball Clint and doubt his bullet dodging along with everything else, I post an album of his feats below with links. Take them as you will.

Clint's Speed:

Slices a gun before it can be shot - NAV1 #37

Dodges War Machine's bullets - AV5 #35

Hits Venom then kicks Bullseye's bow before he can fire an arrow - NAV1 Annual #3

Evades gunfire from two gunmen - HV4 #2

Dodges close range automatic gunfire - HV4 #4

Evades shots from a handgun, taking out two people in the process - HV4 #15

Evades automatic gunfire again in enclosed space - HV4 #21

Lets loose two arrows and ducks behind cover before he can be shot at - HVD #4

While mind controlled dodges a thrown knife by Black Widow - SAV1 #31

Leaps off Captain Britain, dodging a blast from a Celestial, then uses an arrow to steal from it - SAV1 #34

Dodges an energy blast from The Fury - SAV3 #4

Manages to evade the majority of Angel's projectiles before finally getting tagged - AvX Vs #5

Guts Angel before he can take off - AvX Vs #5

Angel fears Hawkeye might be too fast for Psylocke - AvX Vs #5

Evades sound pods from Songbird and rubber bullets from Mach 1 - TV1 #21

Dodges a blitz from Jolt - TV1 #21

Dodges USAgent's shield - TV1 #23

Fires an arrow in a "split second" - TV1 #24

Saves a falling Songbird with a trick arrow - TV1 #28

Despite being trapped under debris and having broken ribs and a broken wrist, he manages to shoot Banner out of the way of a bullet - TV1 #34

Nails Harrier and Cyclone mid-flight - TV1 #71

Saves Skein from Skul's energy blast - TV1 #71

Evades M-80's explosives - TV1 #71

Nets Citizen V before he can hit Zemo - TV1 #75

Hits a gunman before they can kill him and evades gunfire after - HV1 #2

While on his skycycle he "flies between the shrapnel" of explosive fire - HV2 #3

Dodges gunfire from a laser guided robot gun that shoots 30 rounds per second - HV2 #3

Dodges close range gunfire from Viper - HV2 #4

Dodges gunfire from multiple sources while simultaneously firing back mid-backflip - HV3 #7

Dodges close range gunfire from a minigun - HV3 #7

Dodges gunfire from some robots - HM #4

Dodges gunfire from Crossfire - HM #5

Dodges gunfire from several thugs - Blindspot #2

Dodges Steve Roger's energy shield - Blindspot #2

Dodges arrows from his brother and bullets/arrows from some booby traps - Blindspot #3

Won't make it easier if she's in range to hit Clint with a foam bomb. All it takes is one to completely immobilize him. She also has the gear necessary to make it easier to hit him with a foam bomb, like flash bangs, bolas, EMPs, smoke bombs, and all types of other batarangs. To be honest i don't see this being a h2h fight until Barbara exhausted all of her options with her tech; and if that's the case then Clint is going down hard with a combo of bat tech and h2h fighting.

Kinda shot yourself in the foot there. Babara isn't hitting Clint from a distance. She needs to bring it close to win this. And you seem to forget the vast amount of arrows Hawkeye has at his disposal that matches Barbara's in every way.

Arrows:

Conventional Arrows:

2) Explosive Arrows:

3) Putty Arrow:

4) Taser Arrow:

5) Grapple Arrow:

6) Bola Arrow:

7) Acid Arrow:

8) Sonic Arrow:

9) Rocket Arrow:

10) Net Arrow:

11) Cryo Arrow:

12) Suction Tip Arrow:

13) Flashbang Arrow:

14) Blunt Arrows:

15) Gas Arrows:

16) Electronic Scrambler Arrows:

17) Pym Particle Related Arrows:

18) Incendiary Arrows:

Yeah and Hawkeye also lost all the rest of their encounters. Can't keep riding off an inconsistent feat, because Hawkeye can't do it every single time whereas Barbara has consistently been able to hold her own against Canary. Consistency > ONE "win"

What other encounters? And your feats are lacking a lot of context, you can't rely on feats when you aren't explaining everything that is going on in the scans. My one fight has the context and argument to back it up whereas some of your "consistent showings" don't display Barbara in the best light in pure h2h skill rather than relying on cheap shots or opponents holding back.

The ability is up above. look through the scans

Against Teacher? Where has she shown she can do that mid-fight? She only did after she woke up from being schooled by teacher the first time. If she can't do it mid-fight with Hawkeye without retreating first, I don't see how this comes into play.

What you see as limited, i see as all she needs. Seriously, one foam bomb is all it takes. I'll give you a chance to show me some solid evidence that proves Clint can dodge her gear, otherwise i'ma assume he's getting foamed up then KO'd. Barbara is smarter, faster, and more skilled of a fighter based off of the feats presented. She uses unorthodox methods of striking, which i believe Clint will not be prepared for, and is more than capable of taking Clint out with a cheapshot to the nuts or eyes. Either way, clean or dirty, with gadgets or without; Hawkeye is going down.

Already have shown Clint's speed, which is faster than what Barbara can throw out, plus he can just shoot anything she throws out of the air. Clint is just a battle-smart, as fast, if not faster, and can compete in skill enough to land him a solid win based on feats presented. In the end, though she puts on a good fight. Clint wins here.

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Is this finished?

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#26 darthjhawk  Moderator