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#1 Edited by WollfMyth209 (12083 posts) - - Show Bio
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Rules:

  • In-character/Standard Morals
  • Battle takes place on top of the Sky Spire
  • Both characters are in their primes(not counting amps) so RotS Dooku and RotJ Vader
  • Characters are composite, with Legends taking priority
  • When voting, voters should cast a vote for the superior debater who presented a greater case, not for the character they believe would win
  • Do not interrupt the debate, just ask to be tagged for votes if you want to be or don't if you do not
  • Each user has three posts
  • There's no clear time limit

Good luck, Az.

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#2 Posted by WollfMyth209 (12083 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Azronger (2524 posts) - - Show Bio

Looks goods

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#4 Posted by HitTheAssasin (2015 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#5 Edited by HitTheAssasin (2015 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: I'm gonna steal your arguments in favour of Dooku for my CaV :D lol. But anyway, good luck

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#6 Posted by Greysentinel365 (1599 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#7 Posted by KiAdiSandwich (768 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#8 Posted by WollfMyth209 (12083 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by thesithmaster (2132 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh my, this matchup, character and debating-wise, is absolutely fantastic! Super interested in this. T4V plz.

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#10 Edited by noobsnowman (2820 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#11 Posted by Frankenmidget (1228 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#12 Posted by foxerdes (5816 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh boy. T4V

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#13 Posted by slayne (422 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#14 Posted by kbroskywalker (12320 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#15 Posted by Generalissim0 (34 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#16 Posted by DarthFallax (440 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#17 Edited by Emperordmb (1838 posts) - - Show Bio

T420V

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#18 Posted by foxerdes (5816 posts) - - Show Bio
@foxerdes said:

Oh boy. T4V

Finish it. Finish it. Finish it. Finish it.

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#19 Posted by thesithmaster (2132 posts) - - Show Bio

^

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#20 Edited by Azronger (2524 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright… I guess one of us should start this…

The Opener

No Caption Provided

Vader wins. My case for him is mainly based on his superiority in the Force, so I’ll get right into it without wasting any time. First, Vader has been directly compared to Dooku many times via accolades, proclaiming him to be the most powerful out of all of Sheev’s apprentices:

"You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled.”

--Emperor Palpatine, Tarkin

“Of all the monsters I have created, I still regard Darth Vader as something of a minor masterpiece. No, he was not an entirely alchemical creation, but he was my monster nevertheless. Even though he failed to live up to his full potential, there was much pleasure in transforming Anakin Skywalker from a bright-eyed, tousle-headed youth into the greatest Jedi killer of all time. Yes, he ultimately turned against his Master, as monsters sometimes do, but that was my fault, not his. Given the opportunity to create Vader again, I would, and with zeal.

--Emperor Palpatine, Jedi Vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force

"My Empire, so perfect in vision, has at times proved infuriating in its implementation because of the sloth and stupidity of my underlings. Even Vader, my minor masterpiece, is often weak and indecisive. It is fortunate that I have an eternity to outlive his errors."

--Emperor Palpatine, Book Of Sith: Secrets From The Dark Side

Although Palpatine called for the extermination of Jedi and any Force-sensitives who could conceivably challenge him, he did keep a few loyal agents who were trained in the Force. Darth Vader was chief among them, as his primary lieutenant and Sith apprentice.

--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebels' Pinnacle Base.

--Handbook 3: Dark Empire

There is some wiggle room for the first four quotes, but not much for the very last one: it outright states Vader is Palpatine’s strongest disciple, and doesn’t impose limitations regarding era or faction, so it applies to Dooku as well. But how wide is this gap, then? Well, in my opinion, quite large, and there are several ways to prove that. First of all, George Lucas has outright stated Vader, immediately after getting is suit, is 80 % of Palpatine’s power:

“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful. But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

--George Lucas, Vanity Fair Magazine

The argument that I often see made against this, is that it it referring to suit Vader’s potential, but that is clearly a misinterpretation of the text. Every single sentence where Lucas mentions suit Vader, he is referring to the present: “...are curbed at this point…”, “...now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him.” Tell me, does that sound like he’s referring to what Vader could attain in the future? No, it doesn’t. Lucas makes a very clear distinction between Anakin’s potential, and Vader’s current power in his phrasing, and very clearly states Vader is now (now, as in after he has gotten all chopped up and burned, and been put into the suit) almost as powerful as the Emperor’s, and as such, very much ahead of Dooku.

But how can that be? Vader doesn’t display anything even close to Palpatine during that time, and failed to even cause Sidious to flinch during his telekinetic outburst in Revenge of the Sith, so how can he rival him in power? Well, the answer to that comes from Sidious himself, who believed Vader’s loss of ability was merely psychological, and mused that awakening Vader’s power again would be perilous for him:

Yes, Vader was not precisely what he had bargained for. Vader’s legs and arms were artificial, and he would never be able to summon lightning or leap about like the Jedi had been fond of doing. His dark side training was just beginning. But Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will. Self-restraint was praised by the Jedi only because they didn’t know the power of the dark side. Vader’s real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical, and for Vader to overcome them he would need to be driven deeper into himself, to confront all his choices and his disappointments.

Powered by treachery, the Sith Master-apprentice relationship was always a dangerous game. Trust was encouraged even while being sabotaged; loyalty was demanded even while betrayal was prized; suspicion was nourished even while honesty was praised.

In some sense, it was survival of the fittest.

Fundamental to Vader’s growth was the desire to overthrow his Master.

Had Vader killed Obi-Wan on Mustafar, he might have attempted to kill Sidious, as well. In fact, Sidious would have been surprised if Anakin hadn’t made an attempt. Now, however, incapable of so much as breathing on his own, Vader could not rise to the challenge, and Sidious understood that he would need everything in his power to shake Vader out of that despair, and reawaken the incredible power within him.

Even at Sidious’s own peril…

--Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

So obviously for Vader to be able to tap into that power here against Dooku, he would have needed to have reawakened it inside him, and I believe he did. Sidious mentioned that “Fundamental to Vader’s growth was the desire to overthrow his Master,” and given that Vader plotted to overthrow him on many occasions (Starkiller clones, Luke), I’d say it is fairly certain that he did reawaken his power and got access to that 80 %, power significantly above Dooku’s own. But Vader continued to grow from even there:

VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.

--Lords Of The Sith

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

--Beware The Sith

“This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words.”

--A New Hope

So an omniscient narrator, an unbiased observer, and Vader himself all agree that Vader is more powerful than he had been as Anakin and when he fought Obi-Wan on Mustafar. Not only has Anakin been stated to be far more powerful than Dooku, but also the most powerful Jedi ever, including Yoda, and even stronger as a Sith, just as strong as Sidious on Mustafar:

"Soon, I shall have a new apprentice. One far younger and more powerful."

--Darth Sidious, Revenge of the Sith

Sidious then turned his attention to Anakin Skywalker, knowing that young Skywalker was much stronger in the Force than Tyranus.

--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Sidious bared his teeth, but only briefly. "Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be my right hand."

--Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."

--Mace Windu, Revenge of the Sith novelization

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

--Revenge of the Sith novelization

"You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stone magazine

Lucas outright states, that after getting burned and chopped up, Vader, from then on, wasn’t as strong as Sidious, implying that before - including on Mustafar - he had been. So those quotes above - from Vader, Obi-Wan and an omniscient narrator - would indeed place Vader above either Yoda or Revenge of the Sith Darth Sidious in power as of A New Hope, far above Darth Tyranus. That is not the end, however. After his duel with Obi-Wan, Vader continues to grow even more in the Force, resulting in him becoming “far more formidable” than he had been in A New Hope:

When the Death Star exploded, it was believed that Vader had been lost to the void. But he returned, more powerful than before, and was given command of the fleet assigned to track down Skywalker and the Rebel fleet.

--Galaxy Guide 1: A New Hope

The more powerful figures may often be defeated but not slain. They may flee, like Darth Vader after the destruction of the Death Star, to return more powerful on another day.

--Gamer 5

Within the armed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.

--Insider 62

It is further stated that Vader is more powerful than he had ever been during the time period of ESB and RotJ:

In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.

--Insider 62

Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power, it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground... But he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.

--Return of the Jedi novelization

So on Bespin in The Empire Strikes Back, Vader is “at the height of his powers,” and in Return of the Jedi, Vader’s power is “greater than it had ever been.” Given that neither quote is restricted to suit Vader, Knightfall Vader is also fair game here. You know, the guy who thrashed Dooku harder than Yoda could, and who was stated to be more powerful than either Yoda or Sidious:

Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple.

--Databank (2008): Darth Vader

So now to summarize:

  • Vader is repeatedly stated as more powerful than Dooku
  • George Lucas stated Vader immediately after getting his suit rivalled the Emperor in power
  • Vader’s real weaknesses are psychological, not physical, and he overcame them, gaining access to the power he had had as Anakin
  • Vader is repeatedly stated to be more powerful than Anakin and pre-suit Vader, both of whom vastly exceeded Dooku in power and arguably exceeded Yoda and Palpatine too.
  • Vader grows to become a “far more formidable foe” than a Yoda/RotS Palpatine-level Force user

I think it all ties to together quite neatly. Vader would be able to ragdoll Dooku quite freely while Dooku would be incapable of doing anything to Vader, awarding him a rather easy win.

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Your turn, @wollfmyth209

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#21 Posted by HitTheAssasin (2015 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: Well damn, some rather bold claims, now i really want to see how this plays out.

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#22 Posted by BioDynamicApe (236 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty awful, but let's see how it goes.

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#23 Edited by Zapan871 (1620 posts) - - Show Bio

Uh, some very bold claims there, not even I wank Vader that much. But I'm curious to see where this goes.

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#24 Edited by kbroskywalker (12320 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#25 Posted by thesithmaster (2132 posts) - - Show Bio

Are my eyes deceiving me? Did... did Az just say ROTJ Vader is far ahead of ROTS Sidious?

Damn, I'm more interested than ever in this.

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#26 Edited by Greysentinel365 (1599 posts) - - Show Bio

Well this is either going to soar Az to victory or crash and burn

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#27 Edited by kbroskywalker (12320 posts) - - Show Bio

Well this is either going to soar Az to victory or crash and burn

watch how it manages to raise vader while simultaneously crashing and burning

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#28 Posted by LordOfTheLight (1570 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Az is just having some fun here.

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#29 Posted by kbroskywalker (12320 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Az is just having some fun here.

i'm sure i'll be using vader>>sidious some time soon

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#30 Posted by LordOfTheLight (1570 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker

I actually want Wollf to follow suit. It'll be a nice change from all the boring CaV's we are having recently where all that is done is that people throw RT's at each other.

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#31 Posted by kbroskywalker (12320 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker

I actually want Wollf to follow suit. It'll be a nice change from all the boring CaV's we are having recently where all that is done is that people throw RT's at each other.

nah, it's just going to turn into a hilarious stomp against my favorite character ever

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#32 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (31568 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V. Wolf, you're better due Dooku right! Sir Christopher Lee, may he RIP, hardly gets the respect entitled to him.

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#33 Posted by ordeith (1396 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by noobsnowman (2820 posts) - - Show Bio