CAV: Darth Maul (AlexTheBoss) vs Shaak Ti (kbroskywalker)

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kbroskywalker

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@alextheboss

I'll reply tomorrow, too giddy about usa vs ecuador

also clarificatin:

yes old wounds is non canon, but he fight itself is in legends continuity

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uugieboogie

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T4v

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AlexTheBoss

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#53  Edited By AlexTheBoss

@kbroskywalker:

yes old wounds is non canon, but he fight itself is in legends continuity

But you were using old wounds for an argument. We don't know what happened in the actual legends fight.

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kbroskywalker

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@uugieboogie: @alextheboss:

tagged, but debate aint done

The comic referennced this fight, kenobi WON this fight.

We know what happened

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YousufKhan1212

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WTF happened here?

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kbroskywalker

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kbroskywalker

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@erkan12: You said maul wins 7/10 v dooku and that mace is the better fighter compared to yoda

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Erkan12

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#58  Edited By Erkan12

@kbroskywalker said:

@erkan12: You said maul wins 7/10 v dooku

Jeremy Barlow said that. I said 6,5...

And 1 v 1 fight is a different than the general power level, Maul has a personal advantage over Dooku's fighting style in a 1 v 1 fight, that's why. Try to understand a little.

@kbroskywalker said:

mace is the better fighter compared to yoda

Yes, and Yoda is a more powerful Force user. That doesn't mean ''Windu > Yoda'' genius...

In short; you lied again ..............

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kbroskywalker

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@alextheboss:

That comic isn't canon, you yourself admitted that.

The COMIC, not THE FIGHT. The fight is referenced in a Grevious comic here, ""The Soulless One was eventually tracked down by a cyborg acquaintance of Obi-Wan's, an old enemy who anonymously reported the ship to the local Imperial authorities." the souless one is maul.

Also what? if a comic references another comic that does not mean the fight in the comic referenced did not happen. This fight happened in legends and Kenobi won 3 years past his prime:

No Caption Provided

The Maul from old wounds isn't even the same Maul. That Maul even explained his backstory and said he was following Kenobi and how he followed him to Geanosis, ect. However we know none of that is true.

There is only one Darth Maul in the sw universe so yes it is. That backstory is non canon so it shouldn't be used to try and claim this one is different.

Savage also held his own against Anankin and Obi-wan and seemed to be winning. Then later when he was even stronger he was easily beaten by Maul. Anyways Ventress isn't Shaak-ti. Did Shaak-ti ever beat Ventress? Did she ever beat Grievous?

Ventress was on a dark side nexus, which happened to be her home planet. And do you have proof is a better duelist than Ventress?

Ti contended with a far superior duelist to both in pre prime Marek. No she didn't beat the jedi council soloing grevious but unless you're going to try to argue that kit fisto and eath koth>Shaak Ti, she would beat tcw Grevious.

She also matched Anakin who matched Kenobi.

"As the clones continued the attack, Darth Vader discovered Shaak Ti within her chambers. After dueling and disorienting the Sith Lord, she managed to lead a band of Padawans and their Masters out of the Temple and later secured a small number of her charges passage through the Undercity of Coruscant.[13]Arligan Zey, the leader of the clone army's"

Savage also held his own against Anankin and Obi-wan and seemed to be winning. Then later when he was even stronger he was easily beaten by Maul. Anyways Ventress isn't Shaak-ti. Did Shaak-ti ever beat Ventress? Did she ever beat Grievous?

Savage barely dueled them, not the same thing.

Those fodder clones he killed weren't even close to Maul's level. The fact they were failed clones brings into question how durable they are. For all we know they could already be falling apart.

FODDER? how the hell are the clones of someone who could match the emperor for a few seconds fodder? Their failings were MENTAL, there was never a mention of physical failings.

Prime Maul>ep 1 Maul>injured Maul>=tpm kenobi and Qui-gon

Vader is a tier or two above all mentioned combatants

She was really just influencing the planet. Maul's resurrection caused a disturbance in the force across the galaxy.

Maul's resurrection likely caused a disturbance due to Talzin doing it.

Influencing a planet>than anything Maul has done.

I have no idea what you are watching. It took her just over 30 seconds to destroy the first one. I will agree once she got on of their staffs she started to beat them quickly, which doesn't even make sense since she should be better with a lightsaber, but it doesn't matter because she doesn't get an electrostaff in this fight, she gets a lightsaber and with her lightsaber she couldn't even destroy one.

No Caption Provided

Ti was focused on outmaneuvering and defense when with one blade, so thats not a fair comparison. Her being able to do this with a weapon she doesn't use makes it more impressive. Also I'm assuming we're counting Maul with his sabeerstaff(as thats his last appearance in continuity who had a saberstaff.) so same thing applies to Maul.

Bro can you count? 30 SECONDS? it takes 6 seconds to take out 6 magna guards. As stated before, three magnaguards from tcw couldn't take Ahsoka hours after she became a padawn, a lone magna guard from cw took on a jedi master for a while.

By the way in your third gif, that was a great display of unarmed combat skill.

Vader didn't take the full force of Sidious' lighting. Most of it was going into the air. Vader couldn't even stand up by himself afterwords.

Vader still took of some of that lighting hitting his skull, you even see his skeleton show. Thats far more impressive then what Maul can take. Note Vader never screamed, Maul did.

It doesn't matter if they couldn't beat Sidious together. The fact that Dooku think a Maul level warrior would give him a victory over Sidious means he thinks Maul was extremely strong. Something tells me Dooku wouldn't say me and a warrior on Shaak-ti's level could beat Sidious. She would be as useful as Kit Fisto was with Mace, at least at that point. I agree force unleashed Shaak-ti would fare a little better, but not as good as Maul.

Its a nice accolade, but the significance of that accolade is questionable as part of it is false.

Too bad that's prime Marek's power and not Shaak-ti's, someone who lost to pre-prime Marek on a light side nexus with animals for backup.

You act as if Marek wasn't powerful when he faced Ti. Marek destroyed a Sarlacc with his force repulse, can Maul match that?

We don't know if Vader was out of prime. Rebels (his prime) takes place only a couple years before his fight with clone Maul. His power wouldn't of changed much since then.

Which takes place only a few years before Vader's fight with clone Maul.

AOTC happened a couple of years before ROTS. Are you going to tell me Kenobi didn't improve much?

You are right not being able to beat Vader doens't put them out of Maul's league, but they need something to put them into Maul's league in the first place. A padawn can't beat Vader, that doesn't put him out of Maul's league either, but we can't say a random padawan is in Maul's league unless the padawan proves he is. So what did pre-prime Marek do that put him in Maul's league?

How about dueling someone who matched Anakin?

Can I have the quote that says Luke>Anakin.

I misquoted, he said ROTJ LUKE might be more powerfl than Anakin

"Luke could be more powerful than Anakin"

he isn't talking about potential by the way.

-ROTJ

Also luke and vader being equals when both had identical morals shows luke>anakin.

Pre rebels ROTJ was Vader's prime.

The only time the fought Anankin lost.

You know as well as I do that was circumstantial. Gillard states ANAKIN>KENOBI. Anakin matched dooku who ragdolled kenobi.

While I personally believe this is true, this isn't a fact and many people feel the opposite.

Nothing being argued here is fact.

Vizsla isn't force sensitive as far as I know. You just said Maul needed to use the force to grab the darksaber to kill Vizsla. I said he didn't and I already proved it. How can you just ignore my perfectly good argument on why Maul didn't need a lightsaber to kill Vizsla?

I concede your second point.

When did I say he was? If i did, i miswrote.

I would like to see the source for this. Anankin couldn't of been really injured considering it looked like he was perfectly fine when confronting Kenobi a few hours later.

Read quote above. He was not injured, my bad, but he was disorientated suggesting Ti had the edge.

Because Sidious killed Marek almost instantly. Maul taking the lighting for over 10 seconds>>>being killed instantly.

It took sidious about the same time to kill Marek.

Sidious was trying to kill Marek, he was not killing Maul. Maul tanking an attack that was not intended to kill him proves nothing. You know that Sidious could have instakilled him if he wanted to.

I agree they hold weight, but his words aren't 100% canon either. Also when Lucas said Anakin could beat Sidious, did he mean there was a chance but it was low, or he would most likely beat him.

Did they ever give a number for Maul?

I'm pretty confident its 100% g-canon. We both agree Maul at best is kenobi level so at best maul's an 8.

This isn't true. Kenobi is a match for Dooku, and Maul is a match for both Kenobi and Dooku, however he would loose a slight majority to both.

Maul is not a match for Dooku. Dooku was a match for Anakin and Mace Windu, Maul would lose to both about 8/10 IMO. Dooku also held his own v Yoda, Maul could not replicate this.

Kenobi did not beat Maul on equal footing either.

He did in their third fight POST PRIME.

While he had envir. help v maul and opress, he also had to use a secondary style so you could argue that engagement was on even ground.

You can master every style and still loose to someone who master just one.

True, but multiple styles gives variety. Kenobi has taken advantage of this. In his bout on Felucia, Kenobi's mastery of ataru and jar kai allowed him to take both brothers even though Soresu is his primary style. In his third duel with Maul, Kenobi tired Maul out with soresu and then beat him quickly with Ataru. Against Vader, he could compete because of his mastery of Shi Cho.

Maul could arguably do any of those.

WHAT? No he couldn't. Maul cannot stomp Grevious and did not stomp him.

Maul cannot match Anakin or Dooku through saber skills.

That's not what happened in the game.

Thats what happened in the novel. If you want to go by the game then I should point out starkiller actually evaporated those clones with his repulse.

So you think commanding a planet puts her on Kenobi's level but way past Mauls? By your logic her planet commanding should put her way past Kenobi. Has he done anything like that? Also that scan doesn't really show much.

Except that Kenobi has achieved oneness, the second most powerful force ability. I'd mention immortality but it was way after this feat.

Obi-wan beat Grievous in a lightsaber duel in under 20 seconds. Then Grievous ran, Obi-wan lost his lightsaber catching up (the only reason he had a problem), and then finally killed Grievous.

That is false. They dueled for about a minuite before kenobi tkd him. Had he not tkd him it could have lasted for 2 minutes.

It's plausible, but unlikely. In just about every source of media I've seen she has been weaker than Grievous.

you mean in cw she's weaker than Grevious. Cw Grevious solos groups of council masters. TCW shows grevious losing to folks You'd agree are inferior to Ti like Kit Fisto.

That's not really what happened, lol. Maul walked in the front door and said, "One warning, disconnect the droids command signal or die." He then created a force wave and tackled Grievous.

He surprised him, it was an ambush, Maul never did anything like this in their first duel.

I thought that scream was just something his species he could do.

Maybe, still I'd back a jedi master over someone who became a padawan hours ago.

True but those weren't part of Grievous' guard. The one's Maul fought were.

Those were part of Grevious' guard

Because Maul is stronger than them.

You think Maul is more powerful than three council masters and three other jedi masters combined?

No Caption Provided

Ok so you are saying Maul can toy with the strongest sith in history, gg I win.

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT DAMN IT!!!!!!!!

First you say George Luca said Anakin can beat Sidioius, now you are using a statement and argument that completely contradicts that.

There's a reason episode 1 and 2 happened and were as bad as they were. Fortunately he redeemed himself with 3 and tcw.

Maul had to retreat because his brother lost an arm.

And Kenobi didn't lose an arm.

Total # of arms taken off:

KENOBI

1

BROTHERS

0

Like you and I both mentioned, that was a non canon comic.

Fight was legends so the fight part of the comic is valid and there Kenobi won post prime.

Maul's fan induced immortality gives him the win.

No Caption Provided

R2 D2 IS LORD OF ALL REALITY AND FICTION

R2D2 LIKES TI MORE.

YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID.

/THREAD

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AlexTheBoss

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@kbroskywalker:

The COMIC, not THE FIGHT.

Yes, so like I said we can't use the fight in the comic so don't use it. Also even if we were to use it that would be a completely out of prime Maul who never got stronger during the clone wars. He is even older than Obi-wan and his last major fight was on Naboo almost 30 years before. The Ben beat isn't the Maul we know.

Also what? if a comic references another comic that does not mean the fight in the comic referenced did not happen. This fight happened in legends and Kenobi won 3 years past his prime:

That's almost nothing.

There is only one Darth Maul in the sw universe so yes it is. That backstory is non canon so it shouldn't be used to try and claim this one is different.

How can you bring up the fight in the comic if Maul literally explains his non canon background in it? The Maul Ben beat was a Maul that has been tracking Kenobi since his defeat and had no involvement in the clone wars.

There is also only one Grievous in the sw universe but you said I can't compare the old cw Grievous to canon Grievous.

Ti contended with a far superior duelist to both in pre prime Marek.

That version of Marek has no dueling feats that puts him on Maul or Ventress' level. The most impressive thing he has done at that point is fight with Shaak-ti, and you are saying the most impressive thing Shaak-ti did was contend with a Marek who's best dueling feat is dueling with Shaak-ti, lol.

No she didn't beat the jedi council soloing grevious but unless you're going to try to argue that kit fisto and eath koth>Shaak Ti, she would beat tcw Grevious.

If there is only one Maul there is only one Grievous. My case for two Mauls is actually better considering the 2nd Maul I speak of was never canon and literally confirmed himself his background was completely different.

Also Shaak-ti during the clone wars has done nothing to say she is better than Fisto, but ya she is almost definitely better than Eath Koth.

She also matched Anakin who matched Kenobi.

"As the clones continued the attack, Darth Vader discovered Shaak Ti within her chambers. After dueling and disorienting the Sith Lord, she managed to lead a band of Padawans and their Masters out of the Temple and later secured a small number of her charges passage through the Undercity of Coruscant.[13]Arligan Zey, the leader of the clone army's"

Where did that quote come from? Also it is very vague and it sounds like she might of had help from the padawans and their masters.

Savage barely dueled them, not the same thing.

It still proved he was a force to be reckoned with.

FODDER? how the hell are the clones of someone who could match the emperor for a few seconds fodder? Their failings were MENTAL, there was never a mention of physical failings.

Considering how easily they were to beat they were fodder. Vader wouldn't surround himself with a bunch of mentally unstable clones all arguably on his level. They could turn on him and kill him if that was the case. Those clones could not contend with the emperor he would vaporize all of them.

Vader is a tier or two above all mentioned combatants

There is absolutely no evidence to say Vader is that much stronger. Prime Maul could easily be in the same tier as Vader, however he would of course loose. Maul proved he was in the same tier when his clone almost beat Vader.

Maul's resurrection likely caused a disturbance due to Talzin doing it.

There is no evidence Talzin caused the disturbance. It was pretty clear it was supposed to be Maul.

Influencing a planet>than anything Maul has done.

Galaxy>>>>planet

Ti was focused on outmaneuvering and defense when with one blade, so thats not a fair comparison. Her being able to do this with a weapon she doesn't use makes it more impressive.

She doesn't get that weapon here, she gets her lightsaber which she couldn't destroy one.

Bro can you count? 30 SECONDS? it takes 6 seconds to take out 6 magna guards.

It was 30 seconds from the beginning of the battle to the first destroy magna guard. Yes she destroyed a bunch all in a short period of time, but it took 30 seconds before that to start happening.

As stated before, three magnaguards from tcw couldn't take Ahsoka hours after she became a padawn, a lone magna guard from cw took on a jedi master for a while.

The magna guards Ahsoka beat aren't the ones that Maul fought.

Vader still took of some of that lighting hitting his skull, you even see his skeleton show. Thats far more impressive then what Maul can take. Note Vader never screamed, Maul did.

We saw his skeleton because of his suite. Vader didn't scream because he accepted his fate and that would of ruined the scene, lol.

Its a nice accolade, but the significance of that accolade is questionable as part of it is false.

Ya but I'm not trying to compare Maul and Dooku to Sidious, I'm comparing Maul to Dooku. For Dooku to think Maul can help him against Sidious, he most likely thinks of Maul as close to himself in power.

You act as if Marek wasn't powerful when he faced Ti. Marek destroyed a Sarlacc with his force repulse, can Maul match that?

Can I have a scan? Because he didn't do that in the game.

AOTC happened a couple of years before ROTS. Are you going to tell me Kenobi didn't improve much?

Yes Kenobi improved in a couple of years of war and intense training, but why would we think Vader got a lot worse in a couple of years for no reason?

How about dueling someone who matched Anakin?

Shaak-ti matching Anakin is still very dubious.

I misquoted, he said ROTJ LUKE might be more powerfl than Anakin

"Luke could be more powerful than Anakin"

he isn't talking about potential by the way.

Who said that and in what context?

Also luke and vader being equals when both had identical morals shows luke>anakin.

Not really, prime Anakin could hang with a Vader that didn't want to kill him. As you pointed out George Lucas said Anakin could possibly beat Sidious, which means he should easily be able to contend with Vader.

You know as well as I do that was circumstantial. Gillard states ANAKIN>KENOBI. Anakin matched dooku who ragdolled kenobi.

Ya but they still are in the same league and Kenobi's defensive style and Anakin's arrogance got Kenobi the win.

Nothing being argued here is fact.

You know what I mean, it's accepted that Sidious>Padawan by everyone. It is not accepted that Kenobi>Maul.

When did I say he was? If i did, i miswrote.

You said Maul needed to use the force to get the darksaber to kill Vizsla, and then I said he could snap his neck with the force and his hands and I had scans of him doing it, and then you said, there is nothing remotely impressive about snapping the necks of non force sensitives, but that argument would only work if Vizsla was a force sensitive. If he isn't Maul could unimpressivley snap his neck like you said.

Read quote above. He was not injured, my bad, but he was disorientated suggesting Ti had the edge.

That seems pretty vague to me.

It took sidious about the same time to kill Marek.

That's because Marek was blocking it, once it hit him he died.

Sidious was trying to kill Marek, he was not killing Maul. Maul tanking an attack that was not intended to kill him proves nothing. You know that Sidious could have instakilled him if he wanted to.

Has anyone been instakilled by canon lighting yet?

I'm pretty confident its 100% g-canon. We both agree Maul at best is kenobi level so at best maul's an 8.

Ya I can agree with this.

Maul is not a match for Dooku. Dooku was a match for Anakin and Mace Windu, Maul would lose to both about 8/10 IMO. Dooku also held his own v Yoda, Maul could not replicate this.

When I say Maul is a match for Dooku I don't mean he has a good chance of winning, I mean he would make Dooku work for his win.

He did in their third fight POST PRIME.

And like I said many times before we don't truly know what happened in the legends or canon continuity, just the non canon old wounds.

While he had envir. help v maul and opress, he also had to use a secondary style so you could argue that engagement was on even ground.

That was a really good showing for Kenobi, but he never did any damage to Maul, only Savage. It just shows Savage can't really keep up with a extremely focused possibly amped Kenobi.

True, but multiple styles gives variety. Kenobi has taken advantage of this. In his bout on Felucia, Kenobi's mastery of ataru and jar kai allowed him to take both brothers even though Soresu is his primary style. In his third duel with Maul, Kenobi tired Maul out with soresu and then beat him quickly with Ataru. Against Vader, he could compete because of his mastery of Shi Cho.

That's true but Maul has never showed a problem fighting anyone and he won't have a problem with Shaak-ti.

WHAT? No he couldn't. Maul cannot stomp Grevious and did not stomp him.

The amped Maul after Savage's death would most likely stomp Grevious. Maul under normal conditions could stomp if he decided to use the force to try and kill him.

Maul cannot match Anakin or Dooku through saber skills.

He could match them for a bit and compete, but ultimately loose.

Except that Kenobi has achieved oneness, the second most powerful force ability. I'd mention immortality but it was way after this feat.

Qui-gon also became immortal and was master of the force but still lost to Maul. Non combative force powers aren't helping here.

That is false. They dueled for about a minuite before kenobi tkd him. Had he not tkd him it could have lasted for 2 minutes.

There duel lasted 20 second up until Obi-wan's army came. All of that time after the 20 seconds were up, were just hem talking until Obi-wan force pushed Grievous.

TCW shows grevious losing to folks You'd agree are inferior to Ti like Kit Fisto.

Prime Shaak-ti is stronger than Fisto, but is there any real evidence clone wars Shaak-ti is?

He surprised him, it was an ambush, Maul never did anything like this in their first duel.

I guess you could just say it as a bad showing for Grievous instead of a good showing for Maul. However that doesn't change the fact a tackle form Maul hurt Grieous and Maul captured him.

Grievous captured Shaak-ti and Maul captured Grievous. There is a natural order to this.

Maybe, still I'd back a jedi master over someone who became a padawan hours ago.

True but I'm pretty sure the magnaguards performance against Ahsoka was the worst in the series. The rest of the show they weren't quite that bad.

Those were part of Grevious' guard

The ones that attacked Ahsoka were with Dooku, not Grievous.

You think Maul is more powerful than three council masters and three other jedi masters combined?

No, not combined, but definitely by them selves and arguably two at once.

And Kenobi didn't lose an arm.

Total # of arms taken off:

KENOBI

1

BROTHERS

0

It's not fair to base Maul's performance off of Savage's. Lets say you get into a fight with a guy and you have your little brother for back up. If that guy manages to knock your brother out, while you two are fighting him does that automatically mean he could beat you in a 1v1? No, you might even end up beating him after you brother is out cold.

Fight was legends so the fight part of the comic is valid and there Kenobi won post prime.

I don't think we can pick out that fight as canon when the rest of the comic contradicts everything we know about Maul.

R2 D2 IS LORD OF ALL REALITY AND FICTION

R2D2 LIKES TI MORE.

YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID.

/THREAD

Nobody like Ti. Regional Manager Darth Maul is a better dancer therefore wins.

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kbroskywalker

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#61  Edited By kbroskywalker

@alextheboss: Yes, so like I said we can't use the fight in the comic so don't use it. Also even if we were to use it that would be a completely out of prime Maul who never got stronger during the clone wars. He is even older than Obi-wan and his last major fight was on Naboo almost 30 years before. The Ben beat isn't the Maul we know.

Out of prime? based on what? That dude looks ripped.

Backstory is non canon but the fight isn't meaning that the backstory was overwriiten by tcw and the fight happened vs current maul.

Yes we can use the fight. It is referenced in legends. The grevious comic references no other fight, it references the fight which Kenobi won.

That's almost nothing.

AOTC Kenobi was three years pre his prime, so no, that is not almost nothing.

How can you bring up the fight in the comic if Maul literally explains his non canon background in it? The Maul Ben beat was a Maul that has been tracking Kenobi since his defeat and had no involvement in the clone wars.

There is also only one Grievous in the sw universe but you said I can't compare the old cw Grievous to canon Grievous.

Cw grevious is the same as tcw grevious and both are legends or canon continuity. Its just that the shows potray each other differently. Maul's backstory does not change what happened in the fight. We don't need Maul's backstory for that fight to happen. There an infinite number of ways that confrontation could have came about.

That version of Marek has no dueling feats that puts him on Maul or Ventress' level. The most impressive thing he has done at that point is fight with Shaak-ti, and you are saying the most impressive thing Shaak-ti did was contend with a Marek who's best dueling feat is dueling with Shaak-ti, lol.

Oh yea because pre suit Vader is definitely below ventress's level.

If there is only one Maul there is only one Grievous. My case for two Mauls is actually better considering the 2nd Maul I speak of was never canon and literally confirmed himself his background was completely different.

Already countered this above.

Also Shaak-ti during the clone wars has done nothing to say she is better than Fisto, but ya she is almost definitely better than Eath Koth.

Where did that quote come from? Also it is very vague and it sounds like she might of had help from the padawans and their masters.

From wookiepedia. While it is a wiki its a pretty damn accuarte one and it is the only source I could find that shows their fight.

Ti was in her quarters and no padawans were mentioned being there, it was 1 v 1 and To may have had the edge considering she disorientated him. This at a minimum puts her on par if not above Maul.

It still proved he was a force to be reckoned with.

Not really, maul dueled ayla and mace for a few seconds as well, doesn't mean he can beat mace windu.

Considering how easily they were to beat they were fodder. Vader wouldn't surround himself with a bunch of mentally unstable clones all arguably on his level. They could turn on him and kill him if that was the case. Those clones could not contend with the emperor he would vaporize all of them.

The clones were kept asleep so they posed no threat to Vader.

There is absolutely no evidence to say Vader is that much stronger. Prime Maul could easily be in the same tier as Vader, however he would of course loose. Maul proved he was in the same tier when his clone almost beat Vader.

Maul did this to a post prime vader who had gone on without a lightsaber duel for years. He also mentally unbalnced him, somethng that typically wouldn't happen. Vader is more skilled and a better force user than Anakin. Anakin according to g canon is >Kenobi. We both agree Kenobi>/= Maul with me thinking he's>maul. Vader is a high 9, possibly a low ten(putting yoda and sidious as 11's), maul at best is an 8. Thats two tiers above him.

There is no evidence Talzin caused the disturbance. It was pretty clear it was supposed to be Maul.

There is also no evidence that Maul alone created the disturbance. Also being able to be senses by other characters isn't a unheard of thing. Vader could sense ESB luke from across the galaxy. ESB luke had barely used the force. Vandar sensed Bastilla across the galaxy.

Galaxy>>>>planet

Thats a misleading statement. Shaak Ti manipulated all the life of a planet, All Maul did was get felt by force users across the galaxy.

She doesn't get that weapon here, she gets her lightsaber which she couldn't destroy one.

And Maul doesn't get the jarkai blades, he gets a saberstaff.

It was 30 seconds from the beginning of the battle to the first destroy magna guard. Yes she destroyed a bunch all in a short period of time, but it took 30 seconds before that to start happening.

So? Shaak Ti still was able to take out 6 magna guards in 6 seconds when she went on the offensive. Thats more impressive than what Maul did.

The magna guards Ahsoka beat aren't the ones that Maul fought.

Does anything suggest there was a disparity in skill between them?

We saw his skeleton because of his suite. Vader didn't scream because he accepted his fate and that would of ruined the scene, lol.

If there was no suit then it would have been easier to see hi skeleton. He didn't scream because Vader can take a lot more pain than Maul can. EX: Shrugging off a walker falling him instantly.

Ya but I'm not trying to compare Maul and Dooku to Sidious, I'm comparing Maul to Dooku. For Dooku to think Maul can help him against Sidious, he most likely thinks of Maul as close to himself in power.

Close is a relative term.

Can I have a scan? Because he didn't do that in the game.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Yes Kenobi improved in a couple of years of war and intense training, but why would we think Vader got a lot worse in a couple of years for no reason?

There was a reason, Vader had gone a while without a light saber duel.

Who said that and in what context?

Vader said it. Vader is pretty good at assessing people's skills.

Not really, prime Anakin could hang with a Vader that didn't want to kill him. As you pointed out George Lucas said Anakin could possibly beat Sidious, which means he should easily be able to contend with Vader.

Contend, yea, beat, not for a majority. Vader is more skilled, refined, and much better at tapping into his power.

Ya but they still are in the same league and Kenobi's defensive style and Anakin's arrogance got Kenobi the win.

Depends on what you mean by league. Gillard who's word is g canon said Anakin is a tier above Kenobi.

You said Maul needed to use the force to get the darksaber to kill Vizsla, and then I said he could snap his neck with the force and his hands and I had scans of him doing it, and then you said, there is nothing remotely impressive about snapping the necks of non force sensitives, but that argument would only work if Vizsla was a force sensitive. If he isn't Maul could unimpressivley snap his neck like you said.

I was talking about you saying Visla is force sensitive.

Has anyone been instakilled by canon lighting yet?

Darth Traya insta killed three council masters, Revan instakilled Darth Nyriss

When I say Maul is a match for Dooku I don't mean he has a good chance of winning, I mean he would make Dooku work for his win.

So? Ventress can make Anakin work for a win. Ofee made Anakin work for a win.

And like I said many times before we don't truly know what happened in the legends or canon continuity, just the non canon old wounds.

And like I said many times before yes we do. The scan i posted was legends, the fight was legends, that happened in legends continuity.

That was a really good showing for Kenobi, but he never did any damage to Maul, only Savage. It just shows Savage can't really keep up with a extremely focused possibly amped Kenobi.

He actually landed three kicks on Maul.

That's true but Maul has never showed a problem fighting anyone and he won't have a problem with Shaak-ti.

No Caption Provided

So I guess Kenobi and Sidious don't count.

The amped Maul after Savage's death would most likely stomp Grevious. Maul under normal conditions could stomp if he decided to use the force to try and kill him.

Thats speculation.

He could match them for a bit and compete, but ultimately loose.

I could say the same about Ventress.

Qui-gon also became immortal and was master of the force but still lost to Maul. Non combative force powers aren't helping here.

Shaak Ti influencing a planet was non combative untill she fought Marek. I was talking about overall power. Also Oneness is combative.

There duel lasted 20 second up until Obi-wan's army came. All of that time after the 20 seconds were up, were just hem talking until Obi-wan force pushed Grievous.

You should rewatch the fight. Grevious starts moving to attack Kenobi at the 30 second mark. Kenobi Tk's Grevious at the 1:50 second mark. About 30 or so seconds showed the clones coming.

Prime Shaak-ti is stronger than Fisto, but is there any real evidence clone wars Shaak-ti is?

Nothing suggests there was considerable skill increase from tcw shaak ti to ROTS Shaak Ti who matched Anakin.

I guess you could just say it as a bad showing for Grievous instead of a good showing for Maul. However that doesn't change the fact a tackle form Maul hurt Grieous and Maul captured him.

Grievous captured Shaak-ti and Maul captured Grievous. There is a natural order to this.

He was off guard. I can enter a bank and yell give me the money or die before taking a hostage, that hostage would still have been caught off guard.

True but I'm pretty sure the magnaguards performance against Ahsoka was the worst in the series. The rest of the show they weren't quite that bad.

Not really. Anakin almost instantly took out two and Maul made quick work of 4 later on.

The ones that attacked Ahsoka were with Dooku, not Grievous.

Does anything suggest a skill disparity?

No, not combined, but definitely by them selves and arguably two at once.

Grevious took all of them at once.

Also you think ki ad mundi and secura combined would lose to Maul? I can see it, I guess.

It's not fair to base Maul's performance off of Savage's. Lets say you get into a fight with a guy and you have your little brother for back up. If that guy manages to knock your brother out, while you two are fighting him does that automatically mean he could beat you in a 1v1? No, you might even end up beating him after you brother is out cold.

My point is with Opress's help Maul could not subdue Kenobi.

I don't think we can pick out that fight as canon when the rest of the comic contradicts everything we know about Maul.

The fight was referenced in legends continuity, its valid. Your second statement is why the rest of the comic is non canon.

Nobody like Ti. Regional Manager Darth Maul is a better dancer therefore wins.

No Caption Provided

YOU JUST PISSED OFF R2D2

NOBODY PISSES OF MY BUD R2D2

(REACHES OUT AND GRABS ALEX THE BOSS'S THROAT TELKENETICALLY)

Also look at 10:44. Qui Gon totally owns maul with his spin moves on the floor.

LIAM NELSON>MAUL.

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#64  Edited By kbroskywalker
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Out of prime? based on what? That dude looks ripped.

Backstory is non canon but the fight isn't meaning that the backstory was overwriiten by tcw and the fight happened vs current maul.

Yes we can use the fight. It is referenced in legends. The grevious comic references no other fight, it references the fight which Kenobi won.

The only mention of the fight in the legends continuity is that Kenobi won, it didn't say he won easily did it? If it didn't say that we don't know how hard it was for him. And it doesn't matter how ripped he is, Palpatine and Yoda aren't ripped but they can out duel Maul.

AOTC Kenobi was three years pre his prime, so no, that is not almost nothing.

The difference is that you can make a big difference your strength in 3 years of combat and training. The only reason Vader would be getting weaker is age. He was training and in combat throughout his life. There is no reason Vader getting a couple years older would make him drop significantly in strength.

You can't compare 3 years of growing as a warrior to 3 years of just getting older, not getting in a duel for a couple years (unknown if that's true) isn't going to make a huge difference.

Cw grevious is the same as tcw grevious and both are legends or canon continuity. Its just that the shows potray each other differently. Maul's backstory does not change what happened in the fight. We don't need Maul's backstory for that fight to happen. There an infinite number of ways that confrontation could have came about.

Ok, then I can just say Maul is portrayed weaker than usual in that comic. Either way that comic was never canon or legends.

Oh yea because pre suit Vader is definitely below ventress's level.

Pre suit Vader is out of Shaak-ti's league. Ventress, I would say is around clone wars Shaak-Ti level.

From wookiepedia.

Ok, so an unofficial source.

While it is a wiki its a pretty damn accurate one and it is the only source I could find that shows their fight.

It doesn't really matter how accurate it is, it matters if you can find an official source to back your claims.

Ti was in her quarters and no padawans were mentioned being there, it was 1 v 1 and To may have had the edge considering she disorientated him. This at a minimum puts her on par if not above Maul.

Maul could definitely disorient Anakin considering he was clowning Kenobi and Qui-gon at the same time.

Not really, maul dueled ayla and mace for a few seconds as well, doesn't mean he can beat mace windu.

I never said Savage could beat Anakin or Obi-wan, I just said him matching them for a little while proved he was a force to be reckoned with, just like Maul matching Aayla and Windu at the same time proves he is also a force to be reckoned with.

The clones were kept asleep so they posed no threat to Vader.

But he woke them up to fight.

Maul did this to a post prime vader who had gone on without a lightsaber duel for years. He also mentally unbalnced him, somethng that typically wouldn't happen. Vader is more skilled and a better force user than Anakin. Anakin according to g canon is >Kenobi. We both agree Kenobi>/= Maul with me thinking he's>maul. Vader is a high 9, possibly a low ten(putting yoda and sidious as 11's), maul at best is an 8. Thats two tiers above him.

As you mentioned Sidious and Yoda are said to be 9's, but you and I both seem to disagree with that. However I believe that was sabers only. If I had to put them in overall tiers I would put them like this.

Yoda and Sidious: 10+

Vader and Mace: 9-9.5

Anakin and Dooku: 8.5-9

Maul and Kenobi: 8-8.5

Qui-gon, Shaak-ti, Fisto, and other top tier masters: 7.5-8

Average jedi masters and canon Grievous: 6.5-7.5

There is also no evidence that Maul alone created the disturbance. Also being able to be senses by other characters isn't a unheard of thing. Vader could sense ESB luke from across the galaxy. ESB luke had barely used the force. Vandar sensed Bastilla across the galaxy.

Vader and Luke were connected to each other and they were both reaching out. Maul's pressence was creating a tremor across the galaxy that all the strong force users seemed to feel.

Thats a misleading statement. Shaak Ti manipulated all the life of a planet, All Maul did was get felt by force users across the galaxy.

It is different, but Shaak-ti wasn't treated like much of a threat. Vader was just like, she's actually strong, go kill her for your final test. Maul was so threatening Sidious had to step in.

And Maul doesn't get the jarkai blades, he gets a saberstaff.

Which can also be used as a single blade. As far as I can tell the darksaber is basically just a regular lightsaber that looks cool.

So? Shaak Ti still was able to take out 6 magna guards in 6 seconds when she went on the offensive. Thats more impressive than what Maul did.

At best it seems to be about the same. They were both taking them out quickly, the difference is Maul started to do it right away.

Does anything suggest there was a disparity in skill between them?

No, that but there is nothing that says they are just as weak either. The only logical thing to do is to treat them as if they were average magnaguards.

If there was no suit then it would have been easier to see hi skeleton. He didn't scream because Vader can take a lot more pain than Maul can. EX: Shrugging off a walker falling him instantly.

The black suite and it's machinery are what caused us to see his skeleton. If it was easier to see someones skeleton without a suite (in the star wars movie verse,not real life since I don't know) then we would of seen Luke's skeleton, but we didn't.

Close is a relative term.

True, but there powers must of been comparable. There is no way Dooku thought he had a chance against Sidious with someone who isn't even comparable to himself for backup. If you took Savage away and replaced him with Dooku in Maul's fight against Sidious, the fight actually would of been pretty good.

You act as if Marek wasn't powerful when he faced Ti. Marek destroyed a Sarlacc with his force repulse, can Maul match that?

The Sarlaac that he destroyed really wasn't that big. The one in the game was huge, bug all he did was push it back.

Vader said it. Vader is pretty good at assessing people's skills.

Can I have the exact quote and source for Vader saying Luke>Anakin?

Contend, yea, beat, not for a majority. Vader is more skilled, refined, and much better at tapping into his power.

I agree with this. Anakin's speed and agility would make him a tough opponent though.

Depends on what you mean by league. Gillard who's word is g canon said Anakin is a tier above Kenobi.

The actual movie holds a lot more weight than Gillard and Obi-wan had a 5 minute duel with Anakin (the longest in the series) and won. You don't do that to someone who is out of your league, lol. Sidious was out of Kenobi's league, that's why Yoda said Obi-wan can't fight him even though Kenbo asked to because he didn't want to fight Anakin.

P.S. Why didn't Yoda and Kenobi just go together to kill the emperor and then when they were done go after Anakin? lol

I was talking about you saying Visla is force sensitive.

I never said he was force sensitive, I said you implied he was.

Darth Traya insta killed three council masters, Revan instakilled Darth Nyriss

That's not "canon lighting" though.

So? Ventress can make Anakin work for a win. Ofee made Anakin work for a win.

Well Ventress is arguably in CW Anakin's league. Offee did make Anakin work but she never had a chance of winning. I would say Anakin beats Ventress 9/10, and beats Offee 9.9/10. I agree Dooku beats Maul around 7/10. The rounds Dooku looses are the ones Maul is able to make the fight last a really long time and outlast and physically overpower him.

And like I said many times before yes we do. The scan i posted was legends, the fight was legends, that happened in legends continuity.

The scan you posted was legends? I thought it was from the non legends comic "Old Wounds". If it's not from there, where is it from?

He actually landed three kicks on Maul.

And Maul landed some hits earlier in the fight and landed some force hits. Neither of them were majorly damaged though.

So I guess Kenobi and Sidious don't count.

When I said Maul never showed a problem fighting anyone I meant do to their style. Maul had a problem with Sidious do to his power and he had trouble with Kenobi because of Kenobi's amp and he underestimated him.

Thats speculation.

Aren't you the one who said everything is speculation?

I could say the same about Ventress.

Ventress against Dooku was clearly inferior and couldn't even win with help. Maul wouldn't show such inferiority, he would make Dooku fight for his life.

Shaak Ti influencing a planet was non combative untill she fought Marek. I was talking about overall power. Also Oneness is combative.

If she was some super powerful force user why couldn't she just instantly stomp Grievous with the force? If she can't use the force to stop a non force user, she isn't stopping Maul with it, one of the strongest force users of the time.

You should rewatch the fight. Grevious starts moving to attack Kenobi at the 30 second mark. Kenobi Tk's Grevious at the 1:50 second mark. About 30 or so seconds showed the clones coming.

Yes I know that but they never actually reconnect sabers. I was counting from when their blades first hit to the time they last hit. Kenobi took two hands from Grievous in that time. With only two hands left Grievous was at an even bigger disadvantage. He really had no hope of continuing a duel for much longer. Also it's not really fair to count the time they were just standing there. They fought for 20 seconds, and in that time Kenobi took both arms. Then Kenobi force pushed him so hard Grievous lost his other two sabers. Grievous was utterly defeated in their duel.

Nothing suggests there was considerable skill increase from tcw shaak ti to ROTS Shaak Ti who matched Anakin.

Until I see the actual source and know exactly what happened I will refrain from making an argument here.

He was off guard. I can enter a bank and yell give me the money or die before taking a hostage, that hostage would still have been caught off guard.

Kenobi landed a kick on Grievous and all that did was hurt himself. Maul landing a physical attack on Grievous and hurting him without hurting himself is impressive even if Grievous was caught off guard.

Not really. Anakin almost instantly took out two and Maul made quick work of 4 later on.

Anakin should be able to almost instantly take them out. Him and Kenobi took them out pretty easily in ep 3, the only problem was they didn't die right away when they hit them.

Does anything suggest a skill disparity?

Ya, they got crapped on by a padawan, lol. However one was destroyed by her in a surprise attack. She really only beat two face to face.

Grevious took all of them at once.

Also you think ki ad mundi and secura combined would lose to Maul? I can see it, I guess.

Ya Ki Adi and Secura would most likely loose to Maul. Ki Adi is old and I would say almost definitely below Qui-gon. I don't think Secura would be much better than ep1 Kenobi, if at all.

My point is with Opress's help Maul could not subdue Kenobi.

Maul could of kept fighting but chose to help his brother. If you are trying to subdue someone with someone else for backup and he goes down, you might be able to keep going and win, but you would rather help your comrade so you retreat. Maul didn't even want to fight Kenobi yet, he even said so before the fight even began.

The fight was referenced in legends continuity, its valid. Your second statement is why the rest of the comic is non canon.

Was there any reference in the legend continuity of how difficult the fight was?

LIAM NELSON>MAUL.

This goes without saying, but

Maul>Shaak-Ti

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#66  Edited By kbroskywalker

@alextheboss:

I appreciate you allowing me to use ti vs anakin but fortunately there is an official source, TFU.

The only mention of the fight in the legends continuity is that Kenobi won, it didn't say he won easily did it? If it didn't say that we don't know how hard it was for him. And it doesn't matter how ripped he is, Palpatine and Yoda aren't ripped but they can out duel Maul.

Discounting scans which showed the same thing, or flashback scans, the fight was over in 8 scans. Each scan shows a single move from either opponent. In other words, if this was a chess game, kenobi would have won in 8 moves.

the link is here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3teFwdmOMQc

Also does anything suggest this maul was out of prime? Remeber the old backstory has been overwritten.

The difference is that you can make a big difference your strength in 3 years of combat and training. The only reason Vader would be getting weaker is age. He was training and in combat throughout his life. There is no reason Vader getting a couple years older would make him drop significantly in strength.

You can't compare 3 years of growing as a warrior to 3 years of just getting older, not getting in a duel for a couple years (unknown if that's true) isn't going to make a huge difference.

I countered this already, vader lost his skill because he had been out of practice.

Ok, then I can just say Maul is portrayed weaker than usual in that comic. Either way that comic was never canon or legends.

The fight is legends. And I can say kenobi was weaker in that comic. Kenobi is the point of comparison so you can't say maul was weaker using him. Kenobi took a more offensive approach so there's an explantion for maul's quicker defeat. Grevious actually has tons of feats that show his tcw incarnation was weaker. Note as ti is an ataru master comparable to kenobi, kenobi is unlikely to pull the same thing on her.

Pre suit Vader is out of Shaak-ti's league. Ventress, I would say is around clone wars Shaak-Ti level.

Then why was ti able to disorientate him?

Maul could definitely disorient Anakin considering he was clowning Kenobi and Qui-gon at the same time.

No, that really doesn't mean anything, both combined are much weaker than anakin. Anakin was able to land a tk hit on dooku while he dueled both him and ventress. Anakin was able to defeat dooku who solod easily both anakin and kenobi in aotc(both of whom are stronger than their tpm counterparts).

But he woke them up to fight.

Unless a source actually says they were physically handicapped, you can't say they were. There are many safe guards he could have put on them should things have gone wrong.

As you mentioned Sidious and Yoda are said to be 9's, but you and I both seem to disagree with that. However I believe that was sabers only. If I had to put them in overall tiers I would put them like this.

Good list though obviously i disagree with shaak t's placing.

It is different, but Shaak-ti wasn't treated like much of a threat. Vader was just like, she's actually strong, go kill her for your final test. Maul was so threatening Sidious had to step in.

I mean Vader did say, "I don't expect you to survive", also maul was threatening sidious through his personal power, he threatened him with the fact he was forming a criminal empire.

Which can also be used as a single blade. As far as I can tell the darksaber is basically just a regular lightsaber that looks cool.

Jarkai/=/single blade. Looking at the time frame of sod comapred to tcw, its fair to say maul had been spending months using jarkai.

At best it seems to be about the same. They were both taking them out quickly, the difference is Maul started to do it right away.

Except that Ti had to worry about 6 additional combatants.

No, that but there is nothing that says they are just as weak either. The only logical thing to do is to treat them as if they were average magnaguards.

Thats fine, but cw average magna guards are likely stronger than tcw magna gurds as the latter have no feats comparable to cw's ones.

The black suite and it's machinery are what caused us to see his skeleton. If it was easier to see someones skeleton without a suite (in the star wars movie verse,not real life since I don't know) then we would of seen Luke's skeleton, but we didn't.

Sidious never hit luke in the skull with it, but this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

True, but there powers must of been comparable. There is no way Dooku thought he had a chance against Sidious with someone who isn't even comparable to himself for backup. If you took Savage away and replaced him with Dooku in Maul's fight against Sidious, the fight actually would of been pretty good.

comparable is relative. I could argue that depending what that means, ofee is comparable to anakin.

Also unless Dooku actually got to see how skilled maul was, whats to say he didn't overrate him? How would dooku know how much help maul would be?

Also, it would only be as good of a fight as sidious wanted it to be. As said earlier, sidious can move faster than either can perceive.

The Sarlaac that he destroyed really wasn't that big. The one in the game was huge, bug all he did was push it back.

Its still a freaking sarlacc.

Can I have the exact quote and source for Vader saying Luke>Anakin?

I'll look for the quotein a respect thread, but the source is the return of the jedi novelization.

The actual movie holds a lot more weight than Gillard and Obi-wan had a 5 minute duel with Anakin (the longest in the series) and won. You don't do that to someone who is out of your league, lol. Sidious was out of Kenobi's league, that's why Yoda said Obi-wan can't fight him even though Kenbo asked to because he didn't want to fight Anakin.

P.S. Why didn't Yoda and Kenobi just go together to kill the emperor and then when they were done go after Anakin? lol

Yet again, anakin was hindered. Nick Gillard who said this while working on the movie stated when anakin is not hindered, he is a tier above. Now off course its possible you could group a couple of tiers into the same league, which I'd think is the case here.

I never said he was force sensitive, I said you implied he was.

When did I do this?

That's not "canon lighting" though.

This isn't a canon only discussion so it happening in legends means it could happen i canon.

Well Ventress is arguably in CW Anakin's league. Offee did make Anakin work but she never had a chance of winning. I would say Anakin beats Ventress 9/10, and beats Offee 9.9/10. I agree Dooku beats Maul around 7/10. The rounds Dooku looses are the ones Maul is able to make the fight last a really long time and outlast and physically overpower him.

No she isn't. Ventress was getting beat by opress, was pimp slapped by dooku, and quickly retreated against mace windu. She was beat by a padawan anakin and by kenobi.

The scan you posted was legends? I thought it was from the non legends comic "Old Wounds". If it's not from there, where is it from?

The scan was from the part of old wounds referenced in legends. Its legend and valid for this discussion.

And Maul landed some hits earlier in the fight and landed some force hits. Neither of them were majorly damaged though.

Maul never landed any hits and only tkd him when he was preoccupied with trying to strike both him and his brother.

Also I would like to point out that a darksider draws his power from hate. Maul hates kenobi way more than Shaak Ti.

When I said Maul never showed a problem fighting anyone I meant do to their style. Maul had a problem with Sidious do to his power and he had trouble with Kenobi because of Kenobi's amp and he underestimated him.

This isn't true. Manka's unothrodox staff style threw maul off. Kenobi's use of soresu tired maul out and he finished the fight with maul being unable to deal with kenobi's ataru.

Aren't you the one who said everything is speculation?

I said nothing here is fact, not the same thing.

Ventress against Dooku was clearly inferior and couldn't even win with help. Maul wouldn't show such inferiority, he would make Dooku fight for his life.

What about vs kenobi, Plo Koon, anakin and mace?

If she was some super powerful force user why couldn't she just instantly stomp Grievous with the force? If she can't use the force to stop a non force user, she isn't stopping Maul with it, one of the strongest force users of the time.

Please stop lowballing Ti by using cw grevious. Maul when grevious wasn;t suprised never ever tkd grevious, tcw grevious, the one who eath koth force pushed.

Yes I know that but they never actually reconnect sabers. I was counting from when their blades first hit to the time they last hit. Kenobi took two hands from Grievous in that time. With only two hands left Grievous was at an even bigger disadvantage. He really had no hope of continuing a duel for much longer. Also it's not really fair to count the time they were just standing there. They fought for 20 seconds, and in that time Kenobi took both arms. Then Kenobi force pushed him so hard Grievous lost his other two sabers. Grievous was utterly defeated in their duel.

A fight starts when both opponents move to attack each other, not when their attacks hit, which is why dodging is possible. Also the fight was cut short by kenobi's force push, it could have gine on longer.

Until I see the actual source and know exactly what happened I will refrain from making an argument here.

Now that we have a source I'll make an argument around this. Ti dis orientated Anakin suggesting she was doing better than him. Now lets compare this to anakin v kenobi. Anakin was even more hindered vs kenobi due to his hate for him and still they were perfectly even untill Kenobi did the high ground thing. Now there is context as kenobi is a defensive duelist and both knew each other's style, but evn then, as kenobi was the teacher, the second one would help kenobi more. At the very least this puts shaak ti at kenobi's level which at the minimum puts her on maul's level if not igher considering we both agree kenobi >/= maul.

Kenobi landed a kick on Grievous and all that did was hurt himself. Maul landing a physical attack on Grievous and hurting him without hurting himself is impressive even if Grievous was caught off guard.

Kenobi was able to tear gevious's armor. Kenobi also matched anakin while holding back in h2h in tcw. Anakin is faster and stronger than maul evidenced by him cracking stone as a padawan, and covering dooku's vision with light.

Ya, they got crapped on by a padawan, lol. However one was destroyed by her in a surprise attack. She really only beat two face to face.

And later on numerous were instakilled by anakin and maul.

Maul could of kept fighting but chose to help his brother. If you are trying to subdue someone with someone else for backup and he goes down, you might be able to keep going and win, but you would rather help your comrade so you retreat. Maul didn't even want to fight Kenobi yet, he even said so before the fight even began.

Considering kenobi even when faced with opress handed landed numerous hits on maul, it doesn't seem to me in a 1 v 1, maul would do too well.

Was there any reference in the legend continuity of how difficult the fight was?

Addressed this above.

Also, I never said everything is speculation, i simply said nothing here's a fact.

DON'T MAKE ME QUOTE BEN KENOBI!

This goes without saying, but

Maul>Shaak-Ti

I just made a godawful stick figure drawing of shaak ti stomping both sidious and maul at the same time

so therefore:

ti>maul+sidious

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@kbroskywalker:

I appreciate you allowing me to use ti vs anakin but fortunately there is an official source, TFU.

We still don't know what really happened.

Discounting scans which showed the same thing, or flashback scans, the fight was over in 8 scans. Each scan shows a single move from either opponent. In other words, if this was a chess game, kenobi would have won in 8 moves.

And none of those scans are from legends or canon.

I countered this already, vader lost his skill because he had been out of practice.

Vader couldn't of been that out of practice. At the lowest I would put him at 90% of what he was.

The fight is legends. And I can say kenobi was weaker in that comic. Kenobi is the point of comparison so you can't say maul was weaker using him. Kenobi took a more offensive approach so there's an explantion for maul's quicker defeat. Grevious actually has tons of feats that show his tcw incarnation was weaker. Note as ti is an ataru master comparable to kenobi, kenobi is unlikely to pull the same thing on her.

It doesn't matter if the idea of the fight is legends, the comic isn't. Anyways it can't be the same Maul because his legs are completely different.

Then why was ti able to disorientate him?

We don't know because the source doesn't say. Maybe she landed a quick force push or kick on Anankin and quickly ran, or maybe she used her environment. All we can tell from the quote is Shaak-ti was good enough to not instantly loose.

No, that really doesn't mean anything, both combined are much weaker than anakin. Anakin was able to land a tk hit on dooku while he dueled both him and ventress. Anakin was able to defeat dooku who solod easily both anakin and kenobi in aotc(both of whom are stronger than their tpm counterparts).

Yes, Anakin was stronger than his tpm counterpart, lol. I assume you meant Qui-gon compared to Kenobi though, which I would disagree. I think ep2 Kenobi is basically equal to Qui-gon and ep1 Anakin isn't much better than ep1 Kenobi. Count Dooku didn't even have to fight them at the same time, he fought them 1v1. We don't know how Dooku would of fared against both at the same time.

Unless a source actually says they were physically handicapped, you can't say they were. There are many safe guards he could have put on them should things have gone wrong.

Considering they were being stomped by 1 clone they were definitely inferior.

I mean Vader did say, "I don't expect you to survive", also maul was threatening sidious through his personal power, he threatened him with the fact he was forming a criminal empire.

I'm pretty sure Vader was just saying that to put doubt in Marek's mind. Also in rebels it's shown only Vader and Sidious are above Maul. Nobody weaker than Vader would be able to take a decisive win over him.

Jarkai/=/single blade. Looking at the time frame of sod comapred to tcw, its fair to say maul had been spending months using jarkai.

Maul just used a single blade to beat the magnaguards. He can switch to a single blade when using his double bladed lightsaber whenever he wants.

Except that Ti had to worry about 6 additional combatants.

This is true, however when she started destroying them they were mostly just standing around just watching.

Thats fine, but cw average magna guards are likely stronger than tcw magna gurds as the latter have no feats comparable to cw's ones.

Possibly.

Sidious never hit luke in the skull with it, but this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Electricity travels through your body and Vader's entire skeleton was visible. It doesn't really have anything to do with the argument, but it was brought up because Maul was tanking lighting and you said his skeleton wasn't even showing. It was made pretty clear in the movie that Vader's skeleton was showing because of his suite.

comparable is relative. I could argue that depending what that means, ofee is comparable to anakin.

Also unless Dooku actually got to see how skilled maul was, whats to say he didn't overrate him? How would dooku know how much help maul would be?

Also, it would only be as good of a fight as sidious wanted it to be. As said earlier, sidious can move faster than either can perceive.

Offee isn't comparable to Anakin she was just able to hold her own for a short time.

Dooku must of known about Maul. I think he saw holos of his training or something.

Dooku perceived Yoda and Maul perceived Sidious while they were fighting.

Its still a freaking sarlacc.

Each tentacle was smaller than a human, so unless you have scans for sarlacc durability, it isn't any more impressive than destroying any other organic material.

I'll look for the quotein a respect thread, but the source is the return of the jedi novelization.

Ok

Yet again, anakin was hindered. Nick Gillard who said this while working on the movie stated when anakin is not hindered, he is a tier above. Now off course its possible you could group a couple of tiers into the same league, which I'd think is the case here.

Did Gillard state Anankin was hindered and dropped a tier? I thought his tier statement were about the beginning of the movie with their fight with Dooku. If he didn't state anything about the Mustafar fight, for all we know Kenobi might of just brought his A game.

When did I do this?

When I said Maul snapping non force sensitive neck's was a feat that proves he could kill Vizsla without a saber you said killing non force sensitives isn't impressive, and that statement would only make sense if you were implying Vizsla was force sensitive.

This isn't a canon only discussion so it happening in legends means it could happen i canon.

Fair enough, but we know that lighting would never vaporize anyone in the clone wars show, so it really isn't fair to bring it up in the discussion of a clone wars scene.

No she isn't. Ventress was getting beat by opress, was pimp slapped by dooku, and quickly retreated against mace windu. She was beat by a padawan anakin and by kenobi.

Ya Ventress can't beat CW Anakin, but she is one of the people good enough to give him a fight. When I say she is in CW Anakin's league, she is definitely in the low part of the league.

Shaak-ti(CW)<=>Ventress<Shaak-ti(prime)<=>Maul(tpm)<Maul(prime)<=Kenobi(ep3)<Anakin (ep3)

The scan was from the part of old wounds referenced in legends. Its legend and valid for this discussion.

It isn't legends. Every source I have ever seen said it wasn't legends and before Disney rewrote the canon wookiepediea had it in the non canon section.

Maul never landed any hits and only tkd him when he was preoccupied with trying to strike both him and his brother.

Also I would like to point out that a darksider draws his power from hate. Maul hates kenobi way more than Shaak Ti.

Maul was able to take Kenobi and Adalia at the same time for a second too. He didn't even look at her. I know this exchange so it's kind of like the Mace and Aayla fight, but I think both of those fights prove Maul is far above Aayla and Adalia, since he didn't even pay attention to them and even kicked Aayla.

No Caption Provided

This isn't true. Manka's unothrodox staff style threw maul off. Kenobi's use of soresu tired maul out and he finished the fight with maul being unable to deal with kenobi's ataru.

Wasn't that the fight when Maul was still in training and didn't even make his double bladed saber yet?

I said nothing here is fact, not the same thing.

Well since we aren't gods we can't know anything for a fact. A fact is just something that humans accept without question, like I can say it's a fact Sidious is stornger than an average padawan in the star wars universe and people will accept that as a fact.

What about vs kenobi, Plo Koon, anakin and mace?

Maul would kill Plo, make Kenobi fight for his life, and push Anankin and Mace pretty good.

Please stop lowballing Ti by using cw grevious. Maul when grevious wasn;t suprised never ever tkd grevious, tcw grevious, the one who eath koth force pushed.

That's the only Grievous she fought, and lets just say we didn't use the fight, we know she lost to Grievous on courasount because she was protection the chancellor. That means she couldn't stop Grievous.

Yes Eeth Koth force pushed Grievous, but he did that because he was loosing, and that was canon Grievous only using two sabers.

A fight starts when both opponents move to attack each other, not when their attacks hit, which is why dodging is possible. Also the fight was cut short by kenobi's force push, it could have gine on longer.

Ok we can count them standing around if you want but that doesn't account for their skill. Kenobi took two hands from Grievous in 20 seconds. Then after that he got rid of the rest of his lightsabers with a force push. Grievous was humiliated.

Now that we have a source I'll make an argument around this. Ti dis orientated Anakin suggesting she was doing better than him. Now lets compare this to anakin v kenobi. Anakin was even more hindered vs kenobi due to his hate for him and still they were perfectly even untill Kenobi did the high ground thing. Now there is context as kenobi is a defensive duelist and both knew each other's style, but evn then, as kenobi was the teacher, the second one would help kenobi more. At the very least this puts shaak ti at kenobi's level which at the minimum puts her on maul's level if not igher considering we both agree kenobi >/= maul.

We still don't know how she disorientated him. She could of even did it by using his feelings against him.

Kenobi was able to tear gevious's armor. Kenobi also matched anakin while holding back in h2h in tcw. Anakin is faster and stronger than maul evidenced by him cracking stone as a padawan, and covering dooku's vision with light.

Grievous' armor was just held together by screws. And how do those feats you mentioned surpass Maul's?

And later on numerous were instakilled by anakin and maul.

And both of them should be able to instakill magnaguards.

Considering kenobi even when faced with opress handed landed numerous hits on maul, it doesn't seem to me in a 1 v 1, maul would do too well.

Obi-wan was amped and had an advantage in the cave, I believe Filioni even stated this, I could be wrong though.

I just made a godawful stick figure drawing of shaak ti stomping both sidious and maul at the same time

so therefore:

ti>maul+sidious

And I just made a highly intellectual argument proving Maul is stronger than Shaak-ti.

so therefore:

Maul>Ti

Do you want to start with the closing statements soon?

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Ecthelion

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The never ending CaV

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...This CaV tho...

No Caption Provided

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@alextheboss: @themuser: WE WILL TEACH YOU THE MEANING OF PAIN.

Rounds=arguments sike, it means punching each other in the face

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How is this CaV still going? Open to votes soon?? Pretty soon it will get too long for people to want to read.

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AlexTheBoss

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@kbroskywalker: It's getting long so lets each do are closing statements and open for votes.

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kbroskywalker

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@alextheboss:

We still don't know what really happened.

Not exactly but we can deduce some things. As nothing suggests anakin ever had an edge vs ti and shaak disorientated him, at a bare minimum, Ti matched Anakin and quite possibly had an edge over him. This anakin was less hindered than he was vs Kenobi when he matched him(kenobi never won through superior skill, just anakin being stupid). Kenobi aso benifitted as he taught Anakn and had sparred him before. Kenobi also used soresu, a style that djem so is weak against. On the other hand, Ti uses ataru that was strong vs form 5, but also uses makashi which is weak against it so she had no stylistic edge unlike Kenobi. We both agree maul is at best equal to kenobi. This seems to indicate Ti is at worst on par with maul as a duelist and quite possibly superior.

And none of those scans are from legends or canon.

The grevious comic referenced THESE scans in this quote:

"The Soulless One was eventually tracked down by a cyborg acquaintance of Obi-Wan's, an old enemy who anonymously reported the ship to the local Imperial authorities."

-The Story of General Grievous: Lord of War

There is no other fight being referenced except for this one. The fight is legends, thus the scans provided are legends.

These scans clearly show Kenobi>Maul

Maul having a different look in legs could just be artistic, canon maul's look was based on this maul. It can't be a different maul unless parralel universes exist in star wars.

Also how does the comic being non canon matte? The fight is legends and thats what I'm using.

Vader couldn't of been that out of practice. At the lowest I would put him at 90% of what he was.

If three years with lightsaber duels can make kenobi improve drastically, then three years without can make vader regress drastically.

Besides a 10% drop is pretty significant.

Yes, Anakin was stronger than his tpm counterpart, lol. I assume you meant Qui-gon compared to Kenobi though, which I would disagree. I think ep2 Kenobi is basically equal to Qui-gon and ep1 Anakin isn't much better than ep1 Kenobi. Count Dooku didn't even have to fight them at the same time, he fought them 1v1. We don't know how Dooku would of fared against both at the same time.

No I meant Anakin. Maul's showing vs tpm kenobi and qui gon doesn't mean much vs Anakin. If maul is at best kenobi's equal, how would he disorientate him when kenobi couldn't?(untill high ground)

Considering they were being stomped by 1 clone they were definitely inferior.

Starkiller's replulse was powered by pure rage and anger. Marek was much more powerful than he would normally be.

I'm pretty sure Vader was just saying that to put doubt in Marek's mind. Also in rebels it's shown only Vader and Sidious are above Maul. Nobody weaker than Vader would be able to take a decisive win over him.

Ahsoka Tano contended with Vader and in her brief duel with Maul twice overpowered his bladelocks. Notably she did this once using one hand while Maul used two:

No Caption Provided

Have we seen anything suggesting maul> prime ahsoka?

Also considering ben kenobi's performance vs vader, he is in the running as well.

Maul just used a single blade to beat the magnaguards. He can switch to a single blade when using his double bladed lightsaber whenever he wants.

Doesn't mean anything as Maul won't switch to a single blade.

This is true, however when she started destroying them they were mostly just standing around just watching.

Likely because Ti was too fast for them to react.

Electricity travels through your body and Vader's entire skeleton was visible. It doesn't really have anything to do with the argument, but it was brought up because Maul was tanking lighting and you said his skeleton wasn't even showing. It was made pretty clear in the movie that Vader's skeleton was showing because of his suite.

Fair enough, still the lightning vader took was intended to kill luke. The lighting maul took was not intended to kill him. Not sure what maul not dying from lightning that wasn't intended to kill him proves other than sidious being capable of controlling his lightning output.

Dooku perceived Yoda and Maul perceived Sidious while they were fighting.

We have to conclude yoda was holding back and it is stated that sidious was toying with maul. Its made very clear in the rots novelization that yoda or sidious caould easily speed blitz maul and dooku. Anakin couldn't percieve sidious who is about as fast as yoda. Anakin is faster than Dooku.

Each tentacle was smaller than a human, so unless you have scans for sarlacc durability, it isn't any more impressive than destroying any other organic material.

So destroying a non force sensitive human is as impressive as destroying a sarlacc?

Did Gillard state Anankin was hindered and dropped a tier? I thought his tier statement were about the beginning of the movie with their fight with Dooku. If he didn't state anything about the Mustafar fight, for all we know Kenobi might of just brought his A game.

Anakin is sated to be a tier above kenobi yet is matched by him in their duel. Seems pretty clear to me their was a significant drop.

When I said Maul snapping non force sensitive neck's was a feat that proves he could kill Vizsla without a saber you said killing non force sensitives isn't impressive, and that statement would only make sense if you were implying Vizsla was force sensitive.

You misunderstood what I said. I said Visla never had the chance to get up because Maul used the force to call his saber. Though in hindsight i don't think visla was recovering anyway.

Fair enough, but we know that lighting would never vaporize anyone in the clone wars show, so it really isn't fair to bring it up in the discussion of a clone wars scene.

In this discussion unless legends contradicts canon, but are treated as being in the same boat. Also sidious has never tried to vaporize anyone in tcw.

It isn't legends. Every source I have ever seen said it wasn't legends and before Disney rewrote the canon wookiepediea had it in the non canon section.

The comic wasn't in legends. The fight is. Also its worth noting wookiepedia, what you're using here, itself says this may make all of oldwounds legends but I disagree and would say that it only makes the fight legends as that and maul finding kenobi(not how he found him, or his backstory) are referenced in the quote.

Maul was able to take Kenobi and Adalia at the same time for a second too. He didn't even look at her. I know this exchange so it's kind of like the Mace and Aayla fight, but I think both of those fights prove Maul is far above Aayla and Adalia, since he didn't even pay attention to them and even kicked Aayla.

That doesn''t really mean anything. I'm fairly confiident Kenobi could also parry a strike or two from both dooku and maul and land a kick on maul. Doesn't make Kenobi capable of avoiding defeat to both.

Also I was talking about kenobi landing strikes on maul, maul never lands anything on kenobi in the gif you showed.

Wasn't that the fight when Maul was still in training and didn't even make his double bladed saber yet?

I have noc lue how pre prime maul was here so we can discount that if you want.

Well since we aren't gods we can't know anything for a fact. A fact is just something that humans accept without question, like I can say it's a fact Sidious is stornger than an average padawan in the star wars universe and people will accept that as a fact.

Speak for yourself bro, I'M SPACE JESUS

Maul would kill Plo, make Kenobi fight for his life, and push Anankin and Mace pretty good.

Maul actually considered plo koon a worthy test in shadow hunter. Note that this same book had maul saying only mace windu could challenge him of council masters. The dude who thinks he can beat yoda thinks koon is a worthy test. Plo Koon also was beating ventress despite having a broken hand(note djem so makes heavy use of two handed strikes) so its premature to say maul would kill koon without more showings.

That's the only Grievous she fought, and lets just say we didn't use the fight, we know she lost to Grievous on courasount because she was protection the chancellor. That means she couldn't stop Grievous.

Yes Eeth Koth force pushed Grievous, but he did that because he was loosing, and that was canon Grievous only using two sabers.

She lost to cw grevious on coruscant not tcw grevious. And nerfed grevious is the only grevious maul fought. As both would be stomped by someone who easily solos three council masters and three additional jedi masters, there's no point in using grevious from cw here.

Ok we can count them standing around if you want but that doesn't account for their skill. Kenobi took two hands from Grievous in 20 seconds. Then after that he got rid of the rest of his lightsabers with a force push. Grievous was humiliated.

I'm not counting them standing around, I'm counting grevious spinning all 4 sabers like a chainsaw and coming towards kenobi, thats a showing of skill being able to do that. Kenobi was also prompted to back away, making kenobi back away takes skill. Both were moving in order to boost their combative viability, they were in a fight, they were not standing around.

We still don't know how she disorientated him. She could of even did it by using his feelings against him.

Dun moch is fair in combat and maul is most certainly susceptible to it. Also there are many physical ways she could have done it. Her emotionally ublancing him is the only way she could have disorientated him without lightsaber skill, physical prowess or force powers. Its more than likely it was her getting the better of Anakin, if for only a moment.

Grievous' armor was just held together by screws. And how do those feats you mentioned surpass Maul's?

Maul has fought on rock before, him striking a saber never caused the rock to crack. Anakin was only a padawan when he did this.

Obi-wan was amped and had an advantage in the cave, I believe Filioni even stated this, I could be wrong though.

Kenobi still had to deal with both of the brothers and used a secondary style.

And I just made a highly intellectual argument proving Maul is stronger than Shaak-ti.

so therefore:

Maul>Ti

Do you want to start with the closing statements soon?

Brawn over Brains man.

also...

No Caption Provided

Use of iconic move line makes your argument invalid.

TI>MAUL

You decide when we make closing arguments, I think we should make it a rule that we can't counter each other in our closing statement.

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kbroskywalker

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@alextheboss: alright, no counters in closing arguments.

Also.. I don't think we should count erkan's vote as its pretty clear he'll vote against me regardles of whether he reads or not.

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kbroskywalker

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@nfactor1995: the purpose of this cav was to encourage reading

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AlexTheBoss

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@kbroskywalker:

Closing arguments for Maul

Maul was one of the strongest people in the galaxy during his time with Yoda and Sidious being the only two who were out of his league. He beat Qui-gon, one of the strongest jedi in the order at the time even with a young Obi-wan for backup. Later in the clone wars Maul continuously matched a near prime Kenobi, one of the best duelists in the jedi order.

Shaak-ti was a strong jedi but she has never defeated someone on Maul's level and doesn't have enough showings to prove she can win against such a fearsome opponent.

Shaak-ti may be able to hold Maul off for a time but his powerful and quick strikes will eventually overwhelm her. Maul had amazing stamina so even if they were dead even in skill and power Maul would still end up being the victor by outlasting Shaak-ti.

Even if Maul somehow manages to push Maul, Maul is very tactical. Qui-gon and Kenobi were able to push Maul, but he used battle stragey to separate and defeat them (almost, lol).

That brings me to Maul's greatest weakness, his overconfidence. He has lowered his guard when fighting much weaker opponents, but I don't think Shaak-ti is weak enough for him to do that (i'm sure you would agree on that).

Even Sidious thought the jedi wouldn't even be a match for Maul. Shaak-ti did get stronger since ep1, but I doubt she ever surpassed tpm Maul and Maul has gotten even stronger since then.

Maul: At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge.

Sidious: You have been well trained, my young apprentice. They will be no match for you.

In conclusion Maul is just to great a warrior for Shaak-ti to defeat, and his overconfidence will be unlikely to get the better of him while fighting a jedi master.

I win!
I win!

No Caption Provided

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kbroskywalker

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@alextheboss: use of comiccon costume autmatically makes you forfeit cav

jk, my closing will come tomorrow

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#84  Edited By kbroskywalker

@alextheboss: It may be a while, I'm kinda busy with sports and summerschool(thats why you should pass all your classes kids). I also have to worry about the two roleplays I've created, I should be able to post a closing before the end of this week

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#86  Edited By KeiKrossKira

T4V

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kbroskywalker

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@alextheboss: Closing argument is here:

No Caption Provided

AND NOW THE END IS NEAR:

CLOSING ARGUMENT

FORCE ABILITIES:

Maul is powerful, but he is not as powerful as Ti. Ti has been able to command all the flora and fauna of a planet which she turned into a light side nexus:

No Caption Provided

Her TK is also superior to Maul. She and kenobi were able to hold back a river while simultaneously blocking it off with debris:

No Caption Provided

She was also able to force push galen marek:

No Caption Provided

While marek was pre prime he was still powerful and was able to destroy "One of the biggest sarlaccs in the galaxy"-TFU

with his repulse:

No Caption Provided

Marek was able to in his prime block the emperor's lightning for a few seconds so pre prime marek is likely more powerful than maul.

Also as a last resore ti can use tutamiis to block a lightsaber blow.

Ti is more powerful than Maul.

DUELING:

Ti is on par if not superior to maul as a duelist.

Ti is the best makashi duelist of all time besides dooku.

She is even stated to be a peer of Dooku's:

"There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from great swordbeings of the Jedi Order. He lack entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is no where in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda could become"- ROTS Novelization(Credit to @wollfmyth209)

She was also a master of ataru with the only people rivalling her skill in this during this time period being Kenobi and Yoda.

Maul has never matched near prime kenobi on even footing dueling wise. Maul was effectively stomped by a post prime Kenobi here:

No Caption Provided

As stated before, the fight itself is in legends continuity.

TI's showing v anakin as potrayed in the tfu puts ti to be on kenobi's level and a near equal to him.

The fact that anakin is never said to have an upperhand here and the fact ti disorientates him suggests ti either matched, or got the better of anakin in this duel. Aakin here was not as hindered as he was vs kenobi and ti unlike kenobi did not have the benefit of having taught anakin or having sparred him before. This shows ti is at least on par if not superior to maul as a duelist.

Marek also admitted he was lucky to beat ti and Ti landed hits with her blade on Marek. While marek was pre prime he was still a master of shien, juyo, and soresu. He also had trained with simulations of all the council masters including Ti meaning he may have been familiar with Ti's style. Prime marek contended with vader so even pre prime marek was skilled.

Ti was also able to duel 12 magna guards at the same time. She took out 6 of them in seconds.

Ti >= maul as a duelist.

PHYSICAL PROWESS:

Maul is a physical beast but Ti is arguably even more physically impressive.

She is very strong being able to match strikes from pre suit vader and to overpower marek. Note marek was able to withstand Vader's strikes and pre suit Vader's strikes were able to make kenobi's elbows buckle and padawan anakin's strikes were so hard that him hitting a lightsaber caused the rock underneath him to crack. Kenobi imo was the second physically most impressive force user after anakin being able to match anakin in h2h while holding back in tcw, punch maul's horns off post prime, withstand strikes from vader waaaaay post prime, send maul back a couple of yards with his kicks, and make opress's knees buckle with a couple of kicks.

Here's a scan showing padawan anakin's strength:

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Ti was also insanely durable surviving a repulse from Marek. Note Marek's repulse instantly destroyed one of the galaxy's biggest sarlaccs. Also a weaker clone of marek had a repulse so powerful it liquified scores of hisidentical powerful force sensitive clones. Ti also was unaffected by hits from the electro staffs of magna guards. These elctro staffs have made grevious wince and have been able to in incapacitate anakin when enough hits were landed on him:

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Note Ti also overpowers a magna guard here.

Ti is also faster than Maul.

Ti was able to blitz 6 magna guards with all 12 present magna guards being unable to react to her:

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Ti matched pre suit vader's speed. Anakin was able to "cover dooku's vision in light"-ROTS and as a padawan covered himself in light.

Ti is stronger, more durable, and faster than Maul.

SUMMARY:

Ti has better force showings than Maul such as her manipulation of Felucia.

Ti has beter dueling showings than Maul such as her matching of Anakin.

Ti has better physical showings than Maul such as her matching of Anakin and overpowering of Marek.

TI>MAUL

I win!
I win!
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Maul is clearly on crack in both images

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If you vote for maul you support drug addiction.

DON'T DO DRUGS, TI>MAUL

Open voting alexthe boss, tag everyone.

We should have two votes. One for the cav,and one for the funny arguments we made at the end of each of our posts

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AlexTheBoss

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nfactor1995

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@alextheboss: Oh gosh, no, I just can't...too long...sorry man :(

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AlexTheBoss

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@nfactor1995: (jedi mind trick) you will

at least read the opening and closings and a couple of the arguments.

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nfactor1995

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YousufKhan1212

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Can't vote now cause I got a headache. And there are far too many comments to read and the comments are too long... I'll vote when my head is clear.

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TheMuser

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I went through like 90% of this debate days ago....I remember nothing aside from a distinct feeling of mental pain causing me to fall ill. ill go through it here after a while....But nothing soon.

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@nfactor1995: (jedi mind trick) you will

at least read the opening and closings and a couple of the arguments.

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CATS SUCK, THIS IS HOW YOU MIND TRICK SOMEONE:

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OR

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OR

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OR

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Or you just force choke em:

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kbroskywalker

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AlexTheBoss

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AlexTheBoss

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#98  Edited By AlexTheBoss

@themuser: You may have to dig deep into your memory and go places you wished you never had to go back to.

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kbroskywalker

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@erkan12 said:

Jeremy Barlow said that. I said 6,5...

@kbroskywalker said:

@erkan12: You said maul wins 7/10 v dooku

And 1 v 1 fight is a different than the general power level, Maul has a personal advantage over Dooku's fighting style in a 1 v 1 fight, that's why. Try to understand a little.

@kbroskywalker said:

mace is the better fighter compared to yoda

Yes, and Yoda is a more powerful Force user. That doesn't mean ''Windu > Yoda'' genius...

In short; you lied again ..............

: mace being a better fighter than yoda is still an in correctclaim that has been debunked by numerous sources. Yoda is CANONICALLY a better fighter.

I read the op of that thread, so i understood all your points. You said that maul may have stronger tk than dooku(which is blatantly wrong). You said dooku's lighting would be a non factor despite the fact dooku was able to make maul scream and has hurt more durable people like anakin with his lightning. You said that maul would win due to his strength despite the fact that without the rage amp he had in rots anakin and dooku were equals and anakin is stronger than maul. When shooting nova gave feats proving anakin was stronger and faster, nobody actually countere his argument with feats and rather they decided to call him a fanboy. Personal fighting style? Juyo is weak against Makashi. You're in no position to be bashing me as you regulary make incorrect and unbased claims with little to no basis.

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TheMuser

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