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#1 Posted by dark-sith123 (5026 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Caedus (represented by Riddlerfan77)

No Caption Provided

Darth Maul and Count Dooku (represented by dark-sith123)

No Caption Provided
  • The victor will be decided by popular vote. There is no limited number of judges, nor are judges selected prior to the debate.
  • All combatants are at the peak of their power
  • The battle takes place on an empty, open field

Let's get this show on the road!

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#2 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#3 Posted by Vitisid (1199 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP.

Also, is the Maul/Kun CaV still happening?

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#4 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

Started my opener will be up soon [Will hold off for your other duties if required though].

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#5 Posted by dark-sith123 (5026 posts) - - Show Bio

@vitisid:

Unsure. Will wait on that but my main focus is on getting the Vader thing out of the way and concentrating on this CaV.

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#6 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#7 Posted by xolthol (973 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V and tag after each post pls. Good luck to both...

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#8 Posted by Bayman007 (1543 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v

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#9 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#10 Posted by deactivated-5be85ba9d64f1 (712 posts) - - Show Bio

Holy good goddess, please tag me after every post. Also, please do these sith justice. (Lol)

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#11 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

Holy good goddess, please tag me after every post. Also, please do these sith justice. (Lol)

Don't worry my friend, justice will be served to the dark lords of the sith.

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#12 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Caedus

No Caption Provided

Bio

If you don't know who Darth Caedus is at this point I don't even want to talk to you but in any case I can never be bothered with this so I just copy pasted off Wookieepedia so you get a general idea.

The son of Han and Leia Organa Solo, Jacen Solo was a leading Jedi Knight who proved crucial in defeating the Yuuzhan Vong and protecting the galaxy during the Yuuzhan Vong War. The grandson of Darth Vader, Darth Caedus was a Sith lord who turned against his family and friends, betraying his former principles and leading the Galactic Alliance he once championed into a reign of terror as he attempted to bring order and stability to a fractured galaxy. It was Solo's desire to protect the galaxy and his increasing willingness to accept any cost in that cause that facilitated his fall to the sith.

Born in 9 ABY, Jacen Solo spent most of his early years as the target of various kidnapping plots and schemes against his famous parents. When he was thirteen, he and his twin sister Jaina began attending the Jedi Praxeum on Yavin 4 where their uncle Luke Skywalker taught them the ways of the force. There he made several friends, among them the Hapan princess Tenel Ka Djo, to whom he became strongly attracted. While training, he and his friends defeated numerous plots against the New Republic and, in 24 ABY, he and his younger brother Anakin were apprenticed to Skywalker.

A philosopher who struggled with the idea of employing violence to fight violence, Solo entered a personal crisis with the outbreak of the Yuuzhan Vong War. He preferred to serve off the front lines, but felt obligated to volunteer for the strike team assembled to eliminate the voxyn queen at Myrkr. There, Anakin Solo was killed and Jacen Solo stepped up to lead the team, killing the queen and ending the voxyn threat before he was captured by the Yuuzhan Vong.

Solo spent nearly a year in captivity, during which he was tortured for weeks at a time. Solo struggled with his circumstances and with the teachings of his captor and mentor, Vergere. He slipped to the dark side before returning and embracing the idea of responding to the universe with unconditional, all-encompassing love. He escaped Yuuzhan Vong custody with Vergere, a former Jedi of the Old Republic and re-joined the war effort. In the final battle of the war, Solo stormed The Supreme Overlord Shimrra Jaamane's Citadel and defeated Omni who was mentally controlling the Supreme Overlord, while Solo himself experienced a moment of unity with the force.

Afterward, he spent five years visiting and learning from various Force-using sects. During his time with the Mind Walkers, he experienced a vision of a dark figure ruling the galaxy and became determined to prevent its fulfilment. He returned to the Jedi during the Dark Nest Crisis and, armed with a more ruthless philosophy of accepting various sacrifices in the name of the greater good, conspired to eliminate the Killiks to prevent another vision of galactic war and protect his infant daughter Allana, secretly conceived with Tenel Ka Djo. In 40 ABY, Solo agreed to become the Sith apprentice of Lumiya after probing the future and finding that, if he did not do so, he would kill Luke Skywalker and the galaxy would be consumed by chaos.

He embarked on a year-long descent into the dark side slowly turning against the Jedi and his family as he grew darker and more extreme. After seizing control of the Galactic Alliance, killing Mara Jade Skywalker, torturing his former apprentice Ben Skywalker, committing multiple atrocities, taking Tahiri Veila as his official Sith apprentice, and ascending to Sith Mastery as Darth Caedus, he was finally killed by his twin sister Jaina.

-Wookieepedia

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Caedus

Power

Caedus V Luke

Let us begin.

Ok I will begin my argument with perhaps the most impressive display of Jacen's skill and power which is his showing against Luke Skywalker.

Luke didn't know what it was doing there-whether Ben had attacked Jacen with it, or whether Jacen had been using it on Ben-but he started to accept that the horrible scene was real. He was, in fact, standing in the doorway of a secret cabin filled with Yuuzhan Vong torture devices, watching his twisted nephew taunt his captive son.

Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang.

Ben's jaw dropped, and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt and igniting it in the same motion, bringing the emerald blade around high to protect his heart and head.

But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh.

The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse.

Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps.

Good, Luke thought. This was supposed to hurt.

Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been.

Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber. Luke leapt after him, bringing his lightsaber around in a low, clearing sweep.

Jacen stopped pulling and started to swing his free hand around. Luke was ready, had been expecting this since the fight started. Still flying through the air, he raised his own hand, palm outward, and pushed the Force out through his arm to form a protective shield.

The lightning never came. Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising.

Bad mistake.

Luke raised his lightsaber, slashing through the thorn bed as he sprang. Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck

-which Jacen ducked. He came up under Luke's guard, holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke's ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke's chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing.

Luke struck again with his lightsaber, using both hands and putting all his strength into the attack, beating his nephew's guard down so far that Jacen's emerald blade bit into his own shoulder. Jacen kicked at Luke's legs, catching the side of a knee. Something popped and Luke felt himself going down. On the way, he swept his blade horizontally.

Jacen screamed, and the smell of scorched bone and singed hair filled the air. Knowing Jacen would strike despite the wound, Luke rolled over his throbbing knee and spun back to his feet with a clearing sweep.

His blade met Jacen's in a shower of brilliant sparks. Luke freed one hand and drove a finger-strike at Jacen's eyes.

Jacen turned his head, but Luke's little finger scratched across something soft and bulbous. Jacen roared and stumbled away, shaking his head. Luke feinted a dash toward his nephew's blind side, then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave.

Jacen went flying, and it required only a soft nudge to steer him into a tendril-draped rack in the far corner. He hit with so much cracking and crashing that Luke worried the rack had broken, but the thin tendrils quickly entwined Jacen in a net of pulsing green.

Luke started forward, his injured knee buckling each time he put weight on it. The rack's slender tendrils were tightening around Jacen, cutting into his flesh and oozing a yellowish irritant that made skin puff up and split. Jacen began to slash his lightsaber up and down, cutting the vines away two and three at a time. If Luke wanted to finish this-and it seemed like a good idea, given how battered he was himself-he had only a few seconds.

Luke closed to within two meters without saying a word. What point would there have been? Jacen wasn't going to surrender, and Luke wouldn't have believed him if he offered. It was better to attack quickly, while he still had the advantage. He brought his lightsaber up to strike.

-Legacy Of The Force: Inferno

Jacen manages to hold his own against Luke for a period of time and despite losing the fight he performs admirably, landing a kick to his chest, breaking his leg and hitting him with a torture rack to the point where Luke was significantly injured.

Debunking The False Notions Surrounding This Fight!

Misconception 1 [Luke Can One Shot Caedus]

In the next instant, Caedus found himself flying across the cabin toward his observation bubble. Luke had not gestured, had not flinched, had not even shifted his gaze; he had simply grabbed Caedus in the Force and hurled him five meters into his chair.

"Don't lie." Luke started across the cabin. "I'm getting tired of it."

Caedus sprang out of the chair... or attempted to. Instead, he found himself struggling against an invisible weight. He felt as if he were accelerating to lightspeed with a faulty inertial compensator.

"Luke, you've gone mad." Caedus reached for the controls on the arm of his chair and discovered he couldn't even do that much. "You can't do this. I know you're having trouble dealing with Mara's death, but..."

"This has nothing to do with Mara," Luke said. "And you're lucky it doesn't. If she were here-if she had known what you were using Ben for-there'd be pieces of you scattered along the entire length of the Hydian Way."

The irony of the statement was far from lost on Caedus, but he was too astonished-and too frightened-to take any pleasure in it. While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort-and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion.

Keenly aware that all that stood between him and a quick death was Luke Skywalker's much-strained sense of decency, Caedus let a little of his very real fear seep into the Force, just enough to seem properly alarmed.

[...]

"Then I'll take it for what it's worth," Luke said. Leaving Caedus Force-pinned in his chair, he started toward the door. "I'll show myself out."

Caedus knew he would be freed as soon as Luke turned his concentration to something other than Force-pinning him-but that might take minutes, and Caedus needed to send in the Home Fleet now. Besides, he was the Chief of State of the Galactic Alliance, and he could not allow anyone, even Luke Skywalker, to humiliate him and simply leave. He had to assert some sort of authority.

-Legacy Of The Force: Inferno

One of the common misconceptions surrounding this fight is that Luke can obliterate Caedus simply because in another exchange he was able to hold him pinned to a chair for a period of time. What seems to go unnoticed is the fact that Caedus was astonished by Luke's sudden attack which caught him off guard. Caedus was basically cheap shotted, he had no way of defending himself against the attack as it was sudden and caught him off guard. I'm not sure why Caedus being one shotted by a surprise attack is being used against him at all. If this is how characters are ranked we may as well put TPM Kenobi over Maul because what happened here was no different. Literally every line of text here refers to Caedus being Surprised/Astonished/Frightened, basically a cheap shot in every sense of the word, regardless of how easily Luke did it.

Meanwhile Luke felt a pained exertion in the Force as Saba leapt up to the walkway and walked-limped-off the bridge.

Three YVH droids were left. And Jacen. Against Luke and Ben. Jacen was Luke's match, which meant Ben had to cope with three combat droids. The odds weren't good. Then the odds changed.

-Legacy Of The Force: Fury

This claim is even further disproven by the fact that Jacen is described as a match for Luke. So the evidence for Jacen being able to give Luke a good fight is a statement and a fight between the two, the evidence for the contrary is a surprise attack. Hardly what I'd call reliable and undeniable proof.

Misconception 2 [Caedus Was Amped]

The tip sank a few centimetres, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse.

-Legacy Of The Force: Inferno

Caedus was amped yes I won't deny that, the text explicitly notes it. However I'm not entirely sure this is an argument against Jacen as any injury he receives in a fight will amp him. This was not a specific amp only in one fight due to a sudden burst of emotion, a nexus ect, that won't occur on a neutral playing field but rather an injury coupled with Jacen's power to amp himself. This amp is essentially available in every fight and is a mark of Jacen's strength [That injury will only increase him as opposed to decreasing].

Misconception 3 [Luke Was Injured Before The Fight Which Caedus Exploited]

Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps.

-Legacy Of The Force: Inferno

The quote of Luke breathing in short gasps was not a permanent thing but rather a temporary inconvenience due to a strike. It's not a crippling injury, not only is it never brought up for the rest of the fight [Implying his gasps were temporary] not to mention the fact that it was a healed scar, not an open wound. Nothing about this injury affected Luke throughout the fight.

Misconception 4 [Caedus Only Survived Due To The Environment]

Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been.

Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber. Luke leapt after him, bringing his lightsaber around in a low, clearing sweep.

-Legacy Of The Force: Inferno

Another misconception is that Caedus only survived through the environment but where exactly does the text suggest this. All it says was Luke gets in a few good hits [Caedus kicked Luke right at the start, that automatically means Caedus stomps even though that's absolutely not the case as we see in the fight. Caedus using telekinesis isn't proof he couldn't have deflected the strike himself, in fact he uses it to pull himself towards a rack so he can use said rack against Luke, not to save himself from death, Luke landing a few decent hits does not mean he automatically would have killed Caedus simply because the latter chose to withdraw, not to survive but to use his surroundings [Which BTW is commonly done in SW duels].

Misconception 5 [Caedus Needed Luke To Be Poisoned To Hold His Own]

Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising.

-Legacy Of The Force: Inferno

Now whilst this isn't exactly helpful for Luke Caedus was hit by the same torture rack and had the same venom going through it [He was stuck in the thing too, not merely hit by it meaning his dose would be far more lethal, though Luke's knee was broken which counteracts this.

He hit with so much cracking and crashing that Luke worried the rack had broken, but the thin tendrils quickly entwined Jacen in a net of pulsing green.

Luke started forward, his injured knee buckling each time he put weight on it. The rack's slender tendrils were tightening around Jacen, cutting into his flesh and oozing a yellowish irritant that made skin puff up and split. Jacen began to slash his lightsaber up and down, cutting the vines away two and three at a time. If Luke wanted to finish this-and it seemed like a good idea, given how battered he was himself-he had only a few seconds.

Luke closed to within two meters without saying a word. What point would there have been? Jacen wasn't going to surrender, and Luke wouldn't have believed him if he offered. It was better to attack quickly, while he still had the advantage. He brought his lightsaber up to strike.

"Wait!" Ben cried from behind him. "Let me do it!"

Astonished and appalled, Luke put a little too much weight on his injured knee-and fell as it buckled. He rolled beyond the reach of Jacen's lightsaber and looked back across the chamber. Ben was still strapped in the Embrace, but he had summoned the vibrodagger off the floor and was battling to cut himself free of the chair's lashing tentacles.

Luke shook his head. "I don't think so, Ben."

"You have to!" Ben insisted. "I deserve it!"

"Deserve it?" Luke returned to his feet, far angrier with Jacen than he had been just a moment earlier. "To kill someone?"

"You don't understand, "Ben insisted. "It was my fault. If I don't do this..."

"I said no, "Luke interrupted. How could Ben believe that he had a right to kill someone? "You're very confused, Ben. We'll talk about this later."

Giving his son no further chance to argue, Luke turned back to Jacen, who by now was almost free. Only one leg remained caught, though it was still entwined in a half a dozen places. Luke limped forward, circling toward Jacen's trapped side.

Jacen stopped cutting at the tendrils and flung a hand toward the ceiling.

-Legacy Of The Force: Inferno

Jacen's dose would have been far worse though Luke's leg was broken and something collapsed on him so it more than likely evens out to a roughly comparable state of injury.

Jacen's lightsaber droned twice, filling that corner of the torture chamber with flickering green light. Luke Force-hurled the light fixture off his back, then hobbled to his feet.

Jacen launched himself over Luke in a high Force flip. They exchanged perfunctory attacks as he tumbled past, then Luke was alone in the corner, watching the green column of his nephew's lightsaber move toward the door.

-Legacy Of The Force: Inferno

Despite this Jacen was still matching Luke blow for blow which pretty much debunks the idea that Luke being poisoned was significant in any way as even when Luke obtained further injuries that put him in a similar state to Jacen who was being pumped with venom for far longer yet still matched Luke's blows. If Luke was so badly injured by the poison to the point where Jacen could match him, something he apparently can't do despite the fact that when he obtained a far worse dose of it, which more than likely made up for Luke's additional injuries he did so anyway. None of Luke's injuries were as bad as made out, the poison, Caedus was still fighting on par with Luke after being hit by a far more lethal dose and the scar isn't a serious injury, it's not brought up again and was literally just that, a scar. Not a life threatening injury but a scar.

Vader Scaling

From this we can draw a line of scaling that puts Jacen solidly above Maul and Dooku as fighters. We can do this by scaling to Darth Vader.

Contrast this with Vader's performance against ROTJ Luke who for starters is far weaker than LOTF Luke. Even Luke as of DE was more powerful than his ROTJ self.

"You've grown very strong in the Force since we last met… But then, so have I!"

-Dark Empire

And that's not even LOTF just DE. The gap between ROTJ Luke and LOTF Luke is pretty damned big. To further elaborate Jaina suggests she hadn't seen even half, maybe a quarter of Luke's abilities, suggesting power growth between NJO and LOTF.

She had thought she had a fair understanding of his Force abilities, but if his flying was any example, he hadn't revealed half of what he could do. Maybe not even a quarter.

-Legacy Of The Force: Inferno

Now we've established Luke's power growth we have the fact that ROTJ Luke was equal to Vader.

For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.

-Return Of The Jedi Novelization

Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers even more vicious than the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to attack.

-Return Of The Jedi Script

The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match.

-Star Wars Fact File 111

Now as is noted in the ROTJ Novel Vader was humiliated and furious at the idea Luke could match him and was not holding back in the slightest yet was still equalled in skill and power [Even the script notes the duel as vicious]. Contrast this with Caedus significantly injuring a far more powerful version of Luke despite losing and we can summarise that Caedus>Vader at best you can argue the two are equal given there respective fights against Luke. Now let's get on to where this ranks Caedus in comparison to Maul and Dooku.

As noted here Vader is more powerful than he was pre-suit.

Over time Vader has advanced in his ability to manipulate the dark side of the Force, and has used it to sustain his own damaged body as well as to persuade opponents of his will. Under the Emperor's tutelage, Vader learns to kill with mere suggestion.

- Star Wars Visual Dictionary

Vader was ever growing in strength.

Further backed up by the fact that Vader was described as at the height of his powers as of Empire Strikes Back.

Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was he even aware of it. For it was an honour, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power; it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground ... but he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.

-Return Of The Jedi Novelization

Vader himself muses that he was even stronger at the time of ROTJ.

Basically what we have so far is Caedus>ROTJ Luke=ROTJ Vader>ESB Vader>ANH Vader>Pre Suit Vader.

Now even the weakest incarnation of Vader mentioned [Pre suit] is capable of effortlessly stomping Dooku one of the fighters on your team.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker—Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

-Revenge Of The Sith Novelization

This scaling is further backed up by the fact that Anakin was stomping Obi Wan, Dooku's inferior (link) which backs up the idea that Anakin is well beyond Dooku/Maul levellers

Obi-Wan sighed.

He brought out his own lighstaber and angled it before him. "Then I will do what I must."

"You'll try," Anakin said, and leapt.

Obi-Wan met him in the air.

Blue blades crossed, and the volcano above echoed their lightning with a shout of fire.

***

Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.

In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash.

Exchanges flashed. Leaps were sideslipped or met with flying kicks; ankle sweeps skipped over and punches parried. The door of the control center fell in pieces, and then they were inside among the bodies. Consoles exploded in fountains of white-hot sparks as they ripped free of their moorings and hurtled through the air. Dead hands spasmed on triggers and blaster bolts sizzled through impossibly intricate lattices of ricochet.

Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back, and the bolts flared between their blades until their galvening faded and the particles of the packeted beams dispersed into radioactive fog.

"Don't make me destroy you, Obi-Wan." Anakin's voice had gone deeper than a well and bleak as the obsidian cliffs. "You're no match for the power of the dark side."

"I've heard that before," Obi-Wan said through his teeth, parrying madly, "but I never thought I'd hear it from vow."

A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into a wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half stunned. Anakin stepped over bodies and lifted his blade for the kill.

Obi-Wan had only one trick left, one that wouldn't work twice—

But it was a very good trick.

It had, after all, worked rather splendidly on Grievous...

He twitched one finger, reaching through the Force to reverse the polarity of the electrodrivers in Anakin's mechanical hand.

Durasteel fingers sprang open, and a lightsaber tumbled free. Obi-Wan reached. Anakin's lightsaber twisted in the air and flipped into his hand. He poised both blades in a cross before him. "The flaw of power is arrogance."

"You hesitate," Anakin said. "The flaw of compassion—"

"It's not compassion," Obi-Wan said sadly. "It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were."

He sighed. "It's regret for the man you should have been."

Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!"

Dark power bore down with his grip.

Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.

Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad.

-Revenge Of The Sith Noveliation

This point is even further solidified by the fact that Anakin is credited as a tier 9.

"Hayden in this film has gone up to a level nine. He's gone past Obi. The difference between an 8 and a 9 really is the dark side."

-Nick Gillard

Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it.

-Duelling Jedi

[Note that the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous and Kenobi is the former].

Basically what we have here is Caedus>ROTJ Vader>ESB Vader>ANH Vader>Pre Suit Vader>Dooku>Maul. And given how badly the fight went for Dooku I'm not inclined to believe that he would win against Pre Suit Vader never mind Caedus.

Conclusion

This fight is a god one and Maul and Dooku can definitely hold there own but they sure as hell are not winning this fight at all, Caedus wins. Your move now @dark-sith123.

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#13 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

Decent post. Interested with where this goes.

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#14 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 Figured you may be interested in this.

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#16 Posted by dark-sith123 (5026 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay. Will work on a response in the next few weeks. I don't really feel counters in an opener but there are several things which I do feel the need to address.

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#17 Edited by Kilius (1610 posts) - - Show Bio

Pity I haven't read Legacy of the Force yet nor do I want to spoil myself. Ah well, expect a bump many months perhaps maybe a year from now when I've caught up and given my opinion.

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#18 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay. Will work on a response in the next few weeks. I don't really feel counters in an opener but there are several things which I do feel the need to address.

I'm guessing the Luke fight though I addressed most of the arguments against it.

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#19 Edited by dark-sith123 (5026 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77:

The Luke fight (which was debunked long ago, this post doesn't change anything) but still going to put the nail in the coffin in misconception that Caedus is anything other than fodder to Luke.

And most bits of the Vader scaling, namely RotJ Vader = RotJ Luke (seriously?)

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#20 Posted by Vitisid (1199 posts) - - Show Bio

That was...faster than I thought.

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#21 Posted by dark-sith123 (5026 posts) - - Show Bio

@vitisid:

The reply will be much slower, but don't worry. I'll put our Solo friend in place.

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#22 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: He's good with everything else but debating Caedus lol (hence some of the faulty scaling).

Unfortunately when dealing with Caedus he's not very objective.

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#23 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

@vitisid said:

That was...faster than I thought.

I had nothing better to do.

@riddlerfan77:

The Luke fight (which was debunked long ago, this post doesn't change anything) but still going to put the nail in the coffin in misconception that Caedus is anything other than fodder to Luke.

Sure, you can argue it and it's nice to know how little impact I have on this community.

And most bits of the Vader scaling, namely RotJ Vader = RotJ Luke (seriously?)

I backed up all of my points, it's your job to debunk them.

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#24 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

Good to know my arguments are described as faulty even though I literally backed up everything I said.

@vitisid:

The reply will be much slower, but don't worry. I'll put our Solo friend in place.

So where I rank him...

Good.

J.K

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#25 Posted by dark-sith123 (5026 posts) - - Show Bio

Never said they're faulty. Just... not, ehh, 100% good with me. The original Luke vs Caedus debunk was made by ILS so you'll always be fighting an uphill battle.

The Solo friend thing is a joke with Vitisid, don't worry.

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#26 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

Never said they're faulty. Just... not, ehh, 100% good with me.

Ok, I eagerly await your rebuttal though I was referring to @arkhamasylum3 more than you.

The original Luke vs Caedus debunk was made by ILS so you'll always be fighting an uphill battle.

Because ILS=SW God. In all seriousness I knew it would be an uphill battle, doesn't mean I can't attempt it.

The Solo friend thing is a joke with Vitisid, don't worry.

Ok.

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#27 Posted by xolthol (973 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77: Really interresting post. It is pretty good to see someone on CV who didn't permanently lowball Caedus.

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#28 Posted by Hope_w (2834 posts) - - Show Bio

It's a shame that reputation factors in on canon material, as if any user here just has an indefinite say so over what's law in the EU. Shame that individual intelligence isn't rewarded over bandwagoning someone else's idea.

T4V, even if I can't vote I wanna see the arguments

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#29 Edited by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

@xolthol said:

@riddlerfan77: Really interresting post. It is pretty good to see someone on CV who didn't permanently lowball Caedus.

Thanks a lot.

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#30 Posted by deactivated-5c17990e14f60 (326 posts) - - Show Bio

The Audiobooks for LoTF and Fate of the Jedi were excellent, at least to me.

@kilius said:

Pity I haven't read Legacy of the Force yet nor do I want to spoil myself. Ah well, expect a bump many months perhaps maybe a year from now when I've caught up and given my opinion.

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#31 Posted by deactivated-5be85ba9d64f1 (712 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77: appreciate the tag. Not a bad first post. Personally would have gone a different route, but nicely done with the evidence. I'm very curious to see how sith will attempt to debunk.

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#32 Edited by Bayman007 (1543 posts) - - Show Bio

Good luck guys

Enjoyed the read so far, and i'm looking forward to the response

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#33 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77: appreciate the tag. Not a bad first post. Personally would have gone a different route, but nicely done with the evidence. I'm very curious to see how sith will attempt to debunk.

Thanks and I do have other arguments, this was merely an opener to get the ball rolling.

Good luck guys

Enjoyed the read so far, and i'm looking forward to the response

Thanks.

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#34 Posted by Richard96 (5729 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Edited by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by Richard96 (5729 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77:

The part about Luke vs Caedus is very good, although I don’t share totally the part about the scaling from Vader.

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#37 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77:

The part about Luke vs Caedus is very good, although I don’t share totally the part about the scaling from Vader.

Thanks and just so we don't clog up the thread you can PM what you disliked about the Vader scaling.

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#38 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2528 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77 I will debunk this over the weekend in a PM with you, that ROTJ Luke = Vader is garbage

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#39 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

@in-sidiousvader said:

@riddlerfan77 I will debunk this over the weekend in a PM with you, that ROTJ Luke = Vader is garbage

Please do. I already PM'd him a link to a blog on the matter.

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#40 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by dark-sith123 (5026 posts) - - Show Bio

@in-sidiousvader:

Insidious, let me handle it. Don't worry about it. Vader will be done justice, but please, allow me.

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#42 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2528 posts) - - Show Bio

@in-sidiousvader:

Insidious, let me handle it. Don't worry about it. Vader will be done justice, but please, allow me.

Alright, but the idea that our lord and saviour's favorite apprentice is being lowballed so... displeases me greatly.

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#43 Posted by dark-sith123 (5026 posts) - - Show Bio

@in-sidiousvader:

I understand you. Regarding this specific post, though, I can handle it.

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#44 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by Vitisid (1199 posts) - - Show Bio
Loading Video...

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#46 Posted by i_like_swords (26198 posts) - - Show Bio

Can someone please inform Riddlerfan that the horse he's beating has been dead for quite a while now...

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#47 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

Can someone please inform Riddlerfan that the horse he's beating has been dead for quite a while now...

You do realise I've read your debunk right? Just because I ironically decided to argue rather than falling in line like an obedient sheep which you criticised others for doing even though your word on the fight is now taken as Gospel and parroted by "Obedient sheep". Not to be rude but opinions are allowed on the site.

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#48 Posted by i_like_swords (26198 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77: There's not being a sheep, and then there's going against the grain for no good reason. That said, all the more power to ya.

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#49 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77: There's not being a sheep, and then there's going against the grain for no good reason. That said, all the more power to ya.

My points will be built upon in subsequent posts, this is just an opener.

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#50 Posted by GrandmasterGoat (67 posts) - - Show Bio

maul solos