CaV: Darth Bane(DarthBane77) VS Mace Windu{FatedXtasy}

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Fated_Xtasy

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#1  Edited By Fated_Xtasy

The Creator of the Rule of Two: Darth Bane. Championed by @darthbane77

No Caption Provided

VERSUS

The Creator of Vaapad: Mace Windu. Championed by @fated_xtasy

No Caption Provided

Battle takes place at a Massassi Temple on Yavin IV.

Combatants start at 20 feet apart.

Standard Gear.

Peak incarnations for both Characters: ROTS for Mace. DOE for Bane.

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Azronger

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T4V

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Greysentinel365

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kbroskywalker

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#4  Edited By kbroskywalker

T4V

I see the Mace>Plagueis movement I started has taken off :(

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darthfallax

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Good luck, you two.

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Emperor339

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Please let this be a CaV that actually finishes. T4V

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darthfallax

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@emperor339: Let's be honest, Fated will make a post max.

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Helloman

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darthbane77

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@fated_xtasy: I'll be free to begin this probably Monday afternoon/evening.

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Fated_Xtasy

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@darthbane77:
That's cool dude. You get first punch btw, then I'll respond. I can't wait :)

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darthbane77

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cdiddyman911

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Ooooh, tag please!

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nfactor1995

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darthbane77

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@fated_xtasy

This is just gonna be a quick opener explaining Bane’s advantage over Windu in the Force. I’m sick at the moment, so I don’t feel like posting a long opening, but felt I should still post SOMETHING.The main reason I have Bane above Windu, is their difference in power. I believe Bane to be somewhat comfortably above Windu in the Force, due mainly to a specific showing of power that I’ll show here:

Bane Levels of the Temple of the Ancients on Lehon-


There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.

Bane watched the spectacle of the Temple's implosion from the safety of the ground at the foot of the stairs. Billowing clouds of dust rolled out from the wreckage and down the stairs toward him.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction



At first, this may seem only mildly impressive, but in reality, it’s incredibly impressive, the Lehon temple’s size in the PoD novel is reflective of the temple’s size in the first KOTOR game, which was relatively small, however, the temple seen in KOTOR was later retconned to be far larger in SWTOR.

KOTOR Temple (top)

SWTOR temple (bottom)

Sorry the pics are so big, the text in the post gets messed up if I use anything less than a max sized picture, and I don't know how to fix it.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided


Now, more than just the size of the temple was changed, we also got a good look at its durability in SWTOR. This temple tanked direct bombardment from a Harrower Class Dreadnought, one of the most powerful ship types of the era. Keep in mind that Jedi Civil War era ships like the “Leviathan”, Malak’s flagship, were capable of easily destroying sky scrapers, and Harrowers would logically be at least a little bit stronger.Now, I’m not sure of the exact stats of the ships, but iirc, Harrower Class Dreadnoughts are roughly equivalent to the Clone Wars’ era Acclamator Assault ships which (iirc) have around 200 gigatons of firepower per shot. I’ll try to find the exact source for that, I’m pretty sure I remember seeing it, and it should be believable since weapons tech didn’t really seem to have advanced too significantly between the two eras in question. If I can’t find the source, and/or you don’t find it believable, I’ll concede that specific part of this point. For now, I have the one below.

Not the exact source I was thinking of, but it's something. Archaic ships, which the Harrower would like qualify as, are 2/3 the effectiveness of modern ships (if I'm understanding the stats anyway), meaning the Harrower still has 100+gigatons of firepower.


No Caption Provided


Anyway, if we assume that to be true, the Lehon temple took several direct hits from 200 Gigaton Turbolasers. The temple also emerged relatively unscathed, suffering only cosmetic damage at most.

Revan Bombards the Temple (go to 2:15)


Now, refer back to the quote about Bane leveling the temple. Granted, there was another couple thousand years after the events in SWTOR where the structural integrity of the temple could have weakened, but the temple had been standing for tens of thousands of years before that, and showed no signs of weakening when it was fired on by Revan’s ship. Which leads me to believe that the condition of the temple when Bane destroyed it, was not much less than its condition before Revan’s ship fired on it.This means that Bane’s Force Wave was able to produce more power than multiple shots from a turbolaser. A feat of power that, to me, is easily beyond anything Windu has achieved within his own power.Apologies that the opening is so short. Again, I’m sick and really don’t feel like slapping down a giant wall of text.

Bane levels the temple quote (again):

There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.

Bane watched the spectacle of the Temple's implosion from the safety of the ground at the foot of the stairs. Billowing clouds of dust rolled out from the wreckage and down the stairs toward him.

Path of Destruction

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Fated_Xtasy

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Aight dude. Well i won't be able to respond today since I gotta go out with a friend. But i should have a post ready by Wednesday or friday:)

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darthbane77

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Alright, sounds good.

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deactivated-5aba78567e8b5

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Fated_Xtasy

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#20  Edited By Fated_Xtasy

@darthbane77said:

@fated_xtasy

This is just gonna be a quick opener explaining Bane’s advantage over Windu in the Force. I’m sick at the moment, so I don’t feel like posting a long opening, but felt I should still post SOMETHING.The main reason I have Bane above Windu, is their difference in power. I believe Bane to be somewhat comfortably above Windu in the Force, due mainly to a specific showing of power that I’ll show here:

Bane Levels of the Temple of the Ancients on Lehon-

At first, this may seem only mildly impressive, but in reality, it’s incredibly impressive, the Lehon temple’s size in the PoD novel is reflective of the temple’s size in the first KOTOR game, which was relatively small, however, the temple seen in KOTOR was later retconned to be far larger in SWTOR.

KOTOR Temple (top)

SWTOR temple (bottom)

Alright, cool. Also before I begin, I wanna say i hope you're feeling better now, dude.

Now, more than just the size of the temple was changed, we also got a good look at its durability in SWTOR. This temple tanked direct bombardment from a Harrower Class Dreadnought, one of the most powerful ship types of the era. Keep in mind that Jedi Civil War era ships like the “Leviathan”, Malak’s flagship, were capable of easily destroying sky scrapers, and Harrowers would logically be at least a little bit stronger.Now, I’m not sure of the exact stats of the ships, but iirc, Harrower Class Dreadnoughts are roughly equivalent to the Clone Wars’ era Acclamator Assault ships which (iirc) have around 200 gigatons of firepower per shot. I’ll try to find the exact source for that, I’m pretty sure I remember seeing it, and it should be believable since weapons tech didn’t really seem to have advanced too significantly between the two eras in question. If I can’t find the source, and/or you don’t find it believable, I’ll concede that specific part of this point. For now, I have the one below.

Not the exact source I was thinking of, but it's something. Archaic ships, which the Harrower would like qualify as, are 2/3 the effectiveness of modern ships (if I'm understanding the stats anyway), meaning the Harrower still has 100+gigatons of firepower.

That's impressive, yet I'd still like to see the quote you're specifically referring to. With that said, I am very skeptical about the power of the cruiser.

Anyway, if we assume that to be true, the Lehon temple took several direct hits from 200 Gigaton Turbolasers. The temple also emerged relatively unscathed, suffering only cosmetic damage at most.

Right, keyword being "assume."

Now, refer back to the quote about Bane leveling the temple. Granted, there was another couple thousand years after the events in SWTOR where the structural integrity of the temple could have weakened, but the temple had been standing for tens of thousands of years before that, and showed no signs of weakening when it was fired on by Revan’s ship. Which leads me to believe that the condition of the temple when Bane destroyed it, was not much less than its condition before Revan’s ship fired on it.

Yes, what you're saying is true, to an extent. However, take another gander at the comparison. 300 years later, the temple is seen with several large plants, and fauna sprouting out from it due to over-growth, obviously it has changed substantially from a time where the Rakatan tribes were still alive and able to keep their sacred grounds well-guarded. The appearance of the fauna alone tells us that the temple's integrity has been seriously affected by this. Not to mention that the reason why the Rakatan Temple was standing for X amount of years, is likely due to the fact it was never bombarded or touched by anyone in centuriesprior to Revan in the Shadow of Revan expansion and in KOTOR. I have to ask, DB, where do you get the idea that it showed no signs of weakening? Is it stated somewhere in a source-book? by an in-universe article? I'd very much like to see something that indicates to this being the case? Clearly, the mass fauna would affect the structural integrity, and, it would only be logical that the Temple, which we agree is less advance than the skyscrapers of Taris and Telos, yes? - would be highly affected by the turbolasers, especially ones that have had 300 years to advance.

This means that Bane’s Force Wave was able to produce more power than multiple shots from a turbolaser. A feat of power that, to me, is easily beyond anything Windu has achieved within his own power.

I sincerely doubt that. The Temple is shown to be damaged by the growth of the fauna, the turbolasers could also have severely damaged the structure's integrity as well, I don't believe Bane leveled the entirety of the temple, throughout his fight with Kas'im, they are stated to have traveled from the uppermost level of the Temple, down to the entrance.

Battling through the halls and corridors, the combatants rounded a corner to bring them in sight of the Rakatan Temple's only entrance: the wide archway and the small landing beyond,with the wide staircase leading back down to the ground nearly twenty meters below. In the instant it took Kas'im to recognize where they were and realize that his opponent might still escape, Bane thrust out with the Force. He knocked the Twi'lek off balance for a brief second, then backflipped out through the archway and onto the landing. He dropped into a crouch, still facing his opponent. But in his haste Bane had leapt too far; he was balanced precariously on the precipice of the uppermost stair, the steps falling sharply away behind him.

Kas'im responded by using the Force to knock Bane backward, sending him tumbling down the great stone staircase, away from the Blademaster. The fall would have broken his neck-or at least fractured an arm or a leg-if Bane hadn't cocooned himself in the Force. Even so he reached the bottom bruised, battered, and momentarily stunned.

On the landing high above Kas'im stood beneath the massive arch of the Temple entrance, staring down at him.

"I will follow you wherever you run," he said. "Wherever you go I will eventually find you and kill you. Don't live your life in fear, Bane. Better to end it now."

"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster's speech.

There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.

Darth Bane: Path Of Destruction

Underlined here, are passages important to my argument, firstly, we see the archway mentioned several times in this single page, it isn't an Occam's Razor that it requires us to delve deeper into the meaning of it, no, it being continuously mentioned in the passage makes it Chekhov's gun, and is obviously important to the story. Secondly, we have the omniscient narrator tell the reader that the foundation was shaken, not destroyed. Thirdly, our narrators later informs us that the walls of the entrance's wall explode first, this due to Bane's power, that much I will acknowledge. However, the archway logically collapses solely due to the loss of of the walls of the entrance, it's simple physics. The fact that the roof caves in later only proves that Bane's destruction of the walls only leveled the entrance of the Temple, not the entire temple. Please, Bane's powerful, but he's not that powerful. I mean, even if that were the case, why did we never Bane his abilities to such an extent later in his life?

While Mace has shown himself to be very consistent in using the Force

Example A - With a Gesture.

Example B - Against an Army

I mean, if we wanna use feats that involve gravity doing most of the work, then here ya go:

Example C

Example D

Regardless of how you view Mace, he is no way, shape, or form, going to ragdolled or destroyed by any telekinetic blast Bane can muster. Not a Jedi Master of Windu's caliber. I'm sorry if the opener is somewhat lackluster, I'm very sick and tired. I can't wait to see your response.

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darthbane77

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@fated_xtasy: I'll get to working on my response and post it after I wake up tomorrow.

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Emperordmb

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T420V

Uggghhhhhh, reading Fated's post really triggers me, but I gotta suppress the urge to speak up. I'll let DB77 fight this battle and win or lose on his own merits, but every single one of these points is one I could counter.

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darthbane77

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I've got my response all typed up now, just need to get it here to CV and format properly now. It'll be posted sometime tomorrow, afternoon to evening.

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darthbane77

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#24  Edited By darthbane77

@fated_xtasy:

Now, more than just the size of the temple was changed, we also got a good look at its durability in SWTOR. This temple tanked direct bombardment from a Harrower Class Dreadnought, one of the most powerful ship types of the era. Keep in mind that Jedi Civil War era ships like the “Leviathan”, Malak’s flagship, were capable of easily destroying sky scrapers, and Harrowers would logically be at least a little bit stronger.Now, I’m not sure of the exact stats of the ships, but iirc, Harrower Class Dreadnoughts are roughly equivalent to the Clone Wars’ era Acclamator Assault ships which (iirc) have around 200 gigatons of firepower per shot. I’ll try to find the exact source for that, I’m pretty sure I remember seeing it, and it should be believable since weapons tech didn’t really seem to have advanced too significantly between the two eras in question. If I can’t find the source, and/or you don’t find it believable, I’ll concede that specific part of this point. For now, I have the one below.

Not the exact source I was thinking of, but it's something. Archaic ships, which the Harrower would like qualify as, are 2/3 the effectiveness of modern ships (if I'm understanding the stats anyway), meaning the Harrower still has 100+gigatons of firepower.

That's impressive, yet I'd still like to see the quote you're specifically referring to. With that said, I am very skeptical about the power of the cruiser.

---------

I have yet to find the specific quote I was looking for, but will continue to search. For now, I’m gonna change the course of this point somewhat. As I said, we know that a single Interdictor class cruiser (such as the “Leviathan”) is capable of, obviously, easily leveling skyscrapers. A Harrower class Dreadnought is a newer, larger, model of ship. Not only would the firepower of the turbolasers be greater on the Harrower, the Harrower would also boast more weapons. While we have no specific numbers, basic logic and common sense pertaining to the 300 year difference in time would suggest that what I’ve said concerning the comparison is correct, in that the Harrower would be more powerful. So, the basic gist of it is, Bane’s Force Wave>Harrower turbolaser>Interdictor turbolaser.

_______

Now, refer back to the quote about Bane leveling the temple. Granted, there was another couple thousand years after the events in SWTOR where the structural integrity of the temple could have weakened, but the temple had been standing for tens of thousands of years before that, and showed no signs of weakening when it was fired on by Revan’s ship. Which leads me to believe that the condition of the temple when Bane destroyed it, was not much less than its condition before Revan’s ship fired on it.

Yes, what you're saying is true, to an extent. However, take another gander at the comparison. 300 years later, the temple is seen with several large plants, and fauna sprouting out from it due to over-growth, obviously it has changed substantially from a time where the Rakatan tribes were still alive and able to keep their sacred grounds well-guarded. The appearance of the fauna alone tells us that the temple's integrity has been seriously affected by this. Not to mention that the reason why the Rakatan Temple was standing for X amount of years, is likely due to the fact it was never bombarded or touched by anyone in centuriesprior to Revan in the Shadow of Revan expansion and in KOTOR. I have to ask, DB, where do you get the idea that it showed no signs of weakening? Is it stated somewhere in a source-book? by an in-universe article? I'd very much like to see something that indicates to this being the case? Clearly, the mass fauna would affect the structural integrity, and, it would only be logical that the Temple, which we agree is less advance than the skyscrapers of Taris and Telos, yes? - would be highly affected by the turbolasers, especially ones that have had 300 years to advance.

---------------

“obviously it has changed substantially”

Not really. Given that the temple was still standing strong, and was able to take multiple shots from the Harrower, despite your supposed “substantial” changes in the temple’s integrity.

“The appearance of the fauna alone tells us that the temple's integrity has been seriously affected by this.”

Again, the integrity of the temple obviously was NOT affected to any significant extent. Given that it was still standing with no apparent heavy damage after Revan’s bombardment was finished.

“Not to mention that the reason why the Rakatan Temple was standing for X amount of years, is likely due to the fact it was never bombarded or touched by anyone in centuriesprior to Revan in the Shadow of Revan expansion and in KOTOR.”

I mean, that’s kind of a given. Obviously most buildings aren't gonna just fall in on themselves if they’re built properly and are structurally sound. So I’m unsure as to what the point here is. MY point, is that, despite the temple having stood for tens of thousands of years meaning, (due to erosion and passage of time) there would have been some level of wear, on top of being rained down on by Revan’s Harrower, was still standing afterwards. The fact that it was never bombarded before Revan did so is irrelevant.

“I have to ask, DB, where do you get the idea that it showed no signs of weakening? Is it stated somewhere in a source-book? by an in-universe article? I'd very much like to see something that indicates to this being the case?”

Just general observation. This is another one of those common sense instances. If the damage from the overgrowth (if there was any at all) and the repeated fire from a powerful turbolaser wasn’t enough to cause the temple to collapse then and there, then it’s obvious the damage from the overgrowth and erosion was minimal at the most. The fact that the temple continued to stand for another few thousand years, is obvious evidence that no real damage was done to the temple. While I don’t disagree that erosion and overgrowth could have weakened the temple somewhat, over time, the damages were FAR less than what you’re trying to argue.

“Clearly, the mass fauna would affect the structural integrity, and, it would only be logical that the Temple, which we agree is less advance than the skyscrapers of Taris and Telos, yes?”

I’ve answered the matter of the overgrowth a couple times now, so I won’t bother with in this specific point. But no, the temple would have been MORE advanced:

“Ten thousand years before the formation of the Republic, the Rakata ruled much of the known galaxy. War-like and cruel, strong in the Force and technologically advanced, they enslaved or wiped out every civilization they encountered. At its peak, nearly five hundred conquered worlds paid tribute to the Rakata Infinite Empire. However, the Rakata’s rapid expansion came to an abrupt end when a strange plague swept through the species. Millions died, and most of those who survived lost their connection to the Force. Suddenly vulnerable, the Rakata were unable to suppress a massive outbreak of violent slave uprisings. The liberated worlds destroyed the creations and records of their defeated overlords, wiping out almost all trace and knowledge of the Rakata in the greater galaxy. A few thousand Rakata survivors–all that remained of the Infinite Empire–retreated to their hidden homeworld of Lehon, where they descended into barbarism.”

The Rakatans are stated in their codex entry, (the quote above), to be technologically advanced.

Just as well:The above, is the codex entry for Rakata Technology, and it seems to be made VERY clear that the technology is very advanced, and is even at the time of the Great Galactic War and Cold War, coveted and actively searched for. Again, in KOTOR, we have a statement that the Rakatan’s technology is advanced. This is all pretty well corroborated with the theme of almost every appearance or mention of the Infinite Empire, as being an incredibly advanced people.

“The ancient Rakata combined proficiency with the Force with a mastery of technology and bioengineering. Massive weapons of war--such as the Star Forge, a space station powered by the dark side and capable of manufacturing whole fleets--were among their largest-scale achievements, but not every Rakata creation was so grandiose. Rakata mind traps are capable of containing the psyche of an individual in a virtual environment. Creatures bred and enhanced by Rakata life-shapers can survive both hard vacuum and baradium explosives. Rakata droids possess weaponry capable of breaking apart most forms of matter at the atomic level. Rakata relics--even nonfunctional ones--are desperate sought after by those few scientists and archaeologists aware of their existence. Urban legends among smuggling rings tell of ancient devices that wreak havoc on their owners, and both Imperial Intelligence and the Strategic Information Service monitor these rumors with interest. One stray Rakata artifact can change the course of history.”

The below link is a picture of a line of dialogue in the KOTOR tlk files.

Rakata Tech

“would be highly affected by the turbolasers, especially ones that have had 300 years to advance.”

I’m fairly certain I’ve rendered this statement here to be pretty much void, so I won’t bother stomping it into the dirt :).

__________

This means that Bane’s Force Wave was able to produce more power than multiple shots from a turbolaser. A feat of power that, to me, is easily beyond anything Windu has achieved within his own power.

"I sincerely doubt that. The Temple is shown to be damaged by the growth of the fauna, the turbolasers could also have severely damaged the structure's integrity as well, I don't believe Bane leveled the entirety of the temple, throughout his fight with Kas'im, they are stated to have traveled from the uppermost level of the Temple, down to the entrance."

------------

The overgrowth seems to be the entire crux of your argument here, something I just spent a lot of time attempting to counter. So, if it’s all the same to you, I’ll just refer you back to my above counters here. I will, however, address the quote you posted.

Battling through the halls and corridors, the combatants rounded a corner to bring them in sight of the Rakatan Temple's only entrance: the wide archway and the small landing beyond,with the wide staircase leading back down to the ground nearly twenty meters below. In the instant it took Kas'im to recognize where they were and realize that his opponent might still escape, Bane thrust out with the Force. He knocked the Twi'lek off balance for a brief second, then backflipped out through the archway and onto the landing. He dropped into a crouch, still facing his opponent. But in his haste Bane had leapt too far; he was balanced precariously on the precipice of the uppermost stair, the steps falling sharply away behind him.

Kas'im responded by using the Force to knock Bane backward, sending him tumbling down the great stone staircase, away from the Blademaster. The fall would have broken his neck-or at least fractured an arm or a leg-if Bane hadn't cocooned himself in the Force. Even so he reached the bottom bruised, battered, and momentarily stunned.

On the landing high above Kas'im stood beneath the massive arch of the Temple entrance, staring down at him.

"I will follow you wherever you run," he said. "Wherever you go I will eventually find you and kill you. Don't live your life in fear, Bane. Better to end it now."

"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster's speech.

There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.

Darth Bane: Path Of Destruction

The best way to shut your interpretation of this down, is with the quote itself.

“There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple”

Bane’s attack shook the temple’s very foundations. Personally, I interpret this as meaning that the Force Wave was so powerful that it shook the entire temple. I feel it’s relatively straightforward in what it means there. The fact that they fought through the temple first isn’t really relevant, the effect of the Force Wave would have been the same no matter where in the temple they were standing.

“Underlined here, are passages important to my argument, firstly, we see the archway mentioned several times in this single page, it isn't an Occam's Razor that it requires us to delve deeper into the meaning of it, no, it being continuously mentioned in the passage makes it Chekhov's gun, and is obviously important to the story. Secondly, we have the omniscient narrator tell the reader that the foundation was shaken, not destroyed. Thirdly, our narrators later informs us that the walls of the entrance's wall explode first, this due to Bane's power, that much I will acknowledge. However, the archway logically collapses solely due to the loss of of the walls of the entrance, it's simple physics. The fact that the roof caves in later only proves that Bane's destruction of the walls only leveled the entrance of the Temple, not the entire temple. Please, Bane's powerful, but he's not that powerful. I mean, even if that were the case, why did we never Bane his abilities to such an extent later in his life?”

You’re taking the wording literally, it’s not meant to be taken literally.

Again:

“There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple”

The way that “shook the very foundations” is being used here, is pretty much the same thing as Sidious shaking stars, etc, after Plagueis’ death. It’s not literal, it’s symbolic (might not be the right word for this), it’s relaying that “this guy here is pretty strong”.

Now, I’m going to give a small bit of ground to you here, and agree that the walls exploding destroyed the support for the rest of the temple, and caused the building to fall down far easier than normal. However, I’m also going to point out that this is STILL far more damage than the Revan’s Harrower did to the temple. Logic, at least to me, would dictate that if the Harrower can’t make the temple start falling in on itself by shooting it more than several times in the same general area, that it wouldn’t be any different a result had Revan targeted a different portion of the structure. Meaning Bane’s Force Wave still had more destructive power behind it than the many turbolaser shots coming from Revan’s ship. Either way, Bane’s Force Wave was still stronger than weaponry capable of leveling skyscrapers. Plus, going back to my recent counters, the Raktan temple was MORE advanced than the skyscrapers that the Leviathan (and by extension the Harrowers) could destroy, making Bane’s feat even more impressive.I may have missed something I should have countered in your above statement, if there’s something I missed, point it out to me.

___________

Example A: Not terribly impressive tbh. Kanan Jarrus is able to lift large stone bridges like that. Now, please note that I am NOT saying Kanan’s feat is equal or even close to what Windu did there, but it’s somewhat within the same wheelhouse. So while it IS impressive, it’s not terribly so, and Windu certainly has better showings.

Example B: That’s more like it. Certainly an impressive showing, but again, not terribly so. There are other showings from other Force users that are pretty much the same, some of which are actually BETTER showings. Like Revan using a Force wave against the second Yavin IV strike team is comparable, if not superior, to Windu’s feat here, simply because several of Revan’s targets were rather powerful Force users. The ability to ragdoll ______ Force using protag, Lana, Satele, and Marr, is certainly comparable to pushing a few dozen droids, and I don’t believe you’re unreasonable enough to disagree with that :), which in itself is still inferior to Bane’s feat, imo.

Example C: Hardly comparable, the fact you’re using that as a basis for any kind of argument is, no offense meant at all my friend, laughable. Even if we assume your outlook on Bane’s feat is entirely correct, the ability to explode the walls of an absolutely massive temple such as the one on Lehon, is still FAR superior to pulling a door from its hinges and dropping it.

Example D: Better, but still not the same. Again, I highly doubt that slightly lifting and then pushing an AT-TE is comparable to decimating the massive walls and supports of a huge-ass structure like the Temple of the Ancients.

__________

“Regardless of how you view Mace, he is no way, shape, or form, going to ragdolled or destroyed by any telekinetic blast Bane can muster. Not a Jedi Master of Windu's caliber. I'm sorry if the opener is somewhat lackluster, I'm very sick and tired. I can't wait to see your response.”

Oh I don’t disagree, not entirely anyway. I do, however, believe Bane’s advantage in the Force, to be greater than Windu’s advantage with a lightsaber, which I plan on going over at some point very soon. It’s all good, it was a good opener.

I apologize if this looks really unorganized. I'm really shitty at using CV's formatting.

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#25  Edited By Fated_Xtasy

@darthbane77Frig, nice response. still sick as a dog, and I got something this weekend. I prolly wont be able to answer until like two weeks for now, that said I'll do my best to get a response out. Quality>quantity tho :P

Anyways, nice response, I got my work cut for me lmao. Also don't worry about the format, I hated cv's formatting for years lmao. Maybe's once this is over I can go over a general overview of the site witchu (regardless of who wins or loses :P )

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T420V

Uggghhhhhh, reading Fated's post really triggers me, but I gotta suppress the urge to speak up. I'll let DB77 fight this battle and win or lose on his own merits, but every single one of these points is one I could counter.

All these flavors, and you choose to be salty.


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>Fated using Windu in a CaV

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#29  Edited By Fated_Xtasy

Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan.

anywho, @darthbane77 I've recently gotten over my illness, so i'll be right on track to replying to your response, please expect my retort by saturday in the evening, or sunday afternoon at the latest, Thank ya for being patient my dude.

@brightsteel Dude, did you by any chance have a Mace Windu RT? I've seen Nova's and Wulf's, and they seem extremely lacking in well, every sourcebook quote Mace has, so I wanna ask if you made one, because if not, I'm tempted to do one myself for the Master of the Order. Pls lemme know.

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T4V......GL Gents.

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@fated_xtasy: Sounds good, looking forward to your response.

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#32  Edited By Fated_Xtasy

@darthbane77

I have yet to find the specific quote I was looking for, but will continue to search. For now, I’m gonna change the course of this point somewhat. As I said, we know that a single Interdictor class cruiser (such as the “Leviathan”) is capable of, obviously, easily leveling skyscrapers. A Harrower class Dreadnought is a newer, larger, model of ship. Not only would the firepower of the turbolasers be greater on the Harrower, the Harrower would also boast more weapons. While we have no specific numbers, basic logic and common sense pertaining to the 300 year difference in time would suggest that what I’ve said concerning the comparison is correct, in that the Harrower would be more powerful. So, the basic gist of it is, Bane’s Force Wave>Harrower turbolaser>Interdictor turbolas

I don't doubt that the harrower is more powerful than 300 year old ships, I'm only asking for to present the quote you had, I'm curious about it for another RT, I'm making. Regardless, your response is noted.

Not really. Given that the temple was still standing strong, and was able to take multiple shots from the Harrower, despite your supposed “substantial” changes in the temple’s integrity.

Again, the integrity of the temple obviously was NOT affected to any significant extent. Given that it was still standing with no apparent heavy damage after Revan’s bombardment was finished.

Ok, cool. You're still not answering the question, how was it not affected by the Harrower? What proof can you present to back up your claim? I've yet to see any.

I mean, that’s kind of a given. Obviously most buildings aren't gonna just fall in on themselves if they’re built properly and are structurally sound. So I’m unsure as to what the point here is. MY point, is that, despite the temple having stood for tens of thousands of years meaning, (due to erosion and passage of time) there would have been some level of wear, on top of being rained down on by Revan’s Harrower, was still standing afterwards. The fact that it was never bombarded before Revan did so is irrelevant.

Ok..?

Just general observation. This is another one of those common sense instances. If the damage from the overgrowth (if there was any at all) and the repeated fire from a powerful turbolaser wasn’t enough to cause the temple to collapse then and there, then it’s obvious the damage from the overgrowth and erosion was minimal at the most. The fact that the temple continued to stand for another few thousand years, is obvious evidence that no real damage was done to the temple. While I don’t disagree that erosion and overgrowth could have weakened the temple somewhat, over time, the damages were FAR less than what you’re trying to argue.

So you acknowledge the erosion and overgrowth as a factor then? good.

The Rakatans are stated in their codex entry, (the quote above), to be technologically advanced.

Just as well:The above, is the codex entry for Rakata Technology, and it seems to be made VERY clear that the technology is very advanced, and is even at the time of the Great Galactic War and Cold War, coveted and actively searched for. Again, in KOTOR, we have a statement that the Rakatan’s technology is advanced. This is all pretty well corroborated with the theme of almost every appearance or mention of the Infinite Empire, as being an incredibly advanced people.

That's cool, that said, i find it difficult to believe that when it took 6+ or so Thranta/Hammerhead class cruisers to destroy the Star Forge. which was far more advance than the Temple itself, we're still questioning how much damage a ship - that has had 300 years to advance in tech - did to the Temple, when any and every form of defense the Temple once had was completely destroy by Revan/The Republic when the Star Forge was eviscerated, this is something that is echoed within the novel itself, as well.

As he had done in the tombs on Korriban, he began to probe the area around him with the Force. He felt the echoes of the safeguards that had once protected the Temple, but they were so weak as to be almost nonexistent.He wasn't surprised. The shields around the Temple had been fueled by the power of the orbiting Star Forge. With its destruction, the shields had failed-along with all the other defenses that had made the Unknown World a graveyard of ships.

I'm sorry, but without it's shield, there's no way the Temple would not sustain some sort of damage, if we're going to take the "common sense" route, then well crap dude, the temple being damaged should one of those "common sense" things as well. But I'd rather provide proof for my claim, so here we go. Frankly, your claim(s) are outlandish, I'm sorry but it's true. Firstly, i sincerely doubt Bane Is capable of producing a telekinetic attack stronger than a turbo-laser, let alone a barrage of turbo-laser fire coming from a dreadnought type ship, of all things. Here's why, when a NJO Era Medical Supply Ship is capable of destroying a Rakatan Space Station, I'm going to doubt the whole "Rakata are so advanced!" spiel.

Firstly, I'll provide the ship's description in comparison to this space station

The huge station, built of some smooth, greenish substance that did not appear to be metal, floated above the planet in geosynchronous orbit. A shaft of some kind descended from one end of the ovoid station all the way down to the surface of the planet.

"Move the ship close to the station," Seer said. She had risen halfway out of her seat, as if buoyed up by her belief.

Soldier flew the supply ship in closer. Even the large ship seemed tiny compared with the station's bulk.

Star Wars: Riptide

Here's another description of this space station. it's a bit long, so please forgive the wall of text.

The cylinder as large as a star cruiser hung in geosynchronous orbit over the rocky face of the dark side of the planet. The cylinder tapered to a point at one end, fattened to a rounded end on the other. In form, it reminded Jaden of a kind of shell. Its surface, the deep greenish black of ocean depths, was smooth, without any visible viewports or docking stations.

The narrow end of the cylinder faced away from the planet, toward the system's star, while the wide end faced the planet's surface. A thick tether of the same green material extended from the wide end, reached all the way to the planet's surface, and vanished in a dimple of the rocky crust.

"Looks like the damned planet has a tail," Khedryn said, and Jaden agreed.

The entire structure emitted dark-side power, a breeze of evil wafting into space, polluting the entire system. This power felt different, though, a flavor of the dark side that Jaden had never before encountered.

"I feel it, too," Marr said, blinking as if against a stiff wind. "It feels angry, but also : there is sadness, despair."

Marr had put his finger on it. Ordinarily the dark side felt to Jaden like manifest rage, its touch a storm of anger, but this felt more subdued, an anger mellowed by disappointment and suffering. He'd felt something akin to it from Soldier.

"Strange," Jaden said, thoughtful. He erected a mental shield to block it out.

"Neither the cylinder nor the tether are made of metal or any identifiable composite," Marr said, scanning both.

Jaden eyed the structure, unable to shake the image of the planet as an egg, the cylinder and tether the tail of a beast breaking its way out of the planetary shell, a world birthing a monster into a universe.

"It is organic," Marr said, sounding surprised.

Jaden's flesh goose-pimpled.

"Well, maybe it's organic," Marr said.

"What do you mean?" Jaden asked.

Marr pored over the data the scanners fed to his monitor. "It shows characteristics of being organic, but there are organized power lines within it. Even power nodes and relays. But they're like veins and arteries as much as conduits. And the whole thing is hollow, filled with openings that look like corridors and rooms. I think that tether is a lift or : some kind of pathway down to the surface."

"Stang," Khedryn said. "It's a ship of some kind?"

Marr shook his head. "More like a station, I'd say. But I don't see how it could have been built this way. Everything is sealed and there are no : seams or welds or anything like that."

Star Wars: Riptide

This advanced Rakatan Creation was capable of being destroyed by a medical supply ship's engines when Khedryn Faal overloaded them.

On the other side of the station, the supply ship exploded. There was an enormous ball of flame. Immediately, secondary explosions blossomed here and there on the station, growing in size and intensity, one after another rippling along its surface. Curtains of flame shot out into space. An explosion rocked the station near the tether and the part of the station in orbit lurched, severed from the tether, and began to fall toward the planet.

Star Wars: Riptide

So, if a Medical Supply Ship. that is regarded as "tiny", compared to the Space Station, capable of destroying one of the Rakatan's space stations, shouldn't a Harrower class ship be capable of doing notable damage to an eon(s) old Temple with inactive defenses, erosion, and overgrow? I mean, it seems like common sense to me, dude. What's more, your argument relies on just a... general observation? I'm sorry, what? Yeah, no. This brings me to my second point. You're general observation isn't a convincing argument, what-so-ever, because, dude, SWTOR's graphical limitations as an MMO, prevent them from showing every area's rubble and destruction, I mean, Just look at this link at minute 8:30 Vector obviously destroys the shield generator, but the generator is "still standing", yet we know from the way the story progresses that the Generator has been destroyed, which is exactly what's wrong with your "general observation/common sense." argument, it doesn't work when we see various instances where because of SWTOR's limitations the buildings that are destroyed end up looking relatively unharmed, but we have characters speaking of them as if they were destroyed. You need more than a general observation here, to make this work dude.

Lastly, we have these gems.

"Turbo-lasers are locking on! get out of there!"

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Theron Shan

Are we also going to ignore the fact that the Temple of Ancients shook under the barrage of turbo-laser fire from Revan's ship? and how the strike team, or what have you, was sent sprawling/stumbling to the ground?

"The way Revan was laying waste to that place. I wasn't sure you'd come out of it in one piece."

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Theron Shan

"With the amount of fire Revan's ship was laying down. I wasn't optimistic."

Star Wars: The Old Republic; Theron Shan

Firstly, if Theron would warn the Strike-Team about Revan's turbo-laser and tell them to get out of there, I'm sure he's actually worried that the Temple's rubble would crush them to death, not to mention that after speaking to the protag, he states that he's surprised they even made out of there, obviously the Harrower did damage the Temple, which would make sense given the fact that it's defenses are nearly non-existent, it's being shot at by a dreadnought, and we've seen how much damage a "tiny" medical supply ship can do to a Space Station - that would be highly advanced, if not more advanced than a Med ship, according to your quote. - thousands of years later, yes? And, the Temple has suffered from both erosion, and overgrowth, even if it is minimal, the damage is there. So, the Temple isn't at it's peak strength when Bane destroyed it, and that's if he destroyed the entirety of the temple at all,

Bane’s attack shook the temple’s very foundations. Personally, I interpret this as meaning that the Force Wave was so powerful that it shook the entire temple. I feel it’s relatively straightforward in what it means there. The fact that they fought through the temple first isn’t really relevant, the effect of the Force Wave would have been the same no matter where in the temple they were standing.

Yeah, keyword being "shook", as opposed to him destroying the foundation of the Temple, or anything else, dude. And it is relevant, as the battle progressed through the temple until it reached the arch-way, which was the only thing described as being destroyed.

Now, I’m going to give a small bit of ground to you here, and agree that the walls exploding destroyed the support for the rest of the temple, and caused the building to fall down far easier than normal.

Excellent, this is progress.

However, I’m also going to point out that this is STILL far more damage than the Revan’s Harrower did to the temple. Logic, at least to me, would dictate that if the Harrower can’t make the temple start falling in on itself by shooting it more than several times in the same general area, that it wouldn’t be any different a result had Revan targeted a different portion of the structure.

Except the fact that Theron was amazed that the protag made out alive after Revan laid waste to the temple, suggests that the protag could of died by the rubble around them, so.

Meaning Bane’s Force Wave still had more destructive power behind it than the many turbolaser shots coming from Revan’s ship. Either way, Bane’s Force Wave was still stronger than weaponry capable of leveling skyscrapers. Plus, going back to my recent counters, the Raktan temple was MORE advanced than the skyscrapers that the Leviathan (and by extension the Harrowers) could destroy, making Bane’s feat even more impressive.I may have missed something I should have countered in your above statement, if there’s something I missed, point it out to me.

That's really quite the claim, buddy. But I reiterate, the Temple was obviously dealt damage over the course of Forged Alliances, Theron/Lana makes this pretty evident, you've already conceded that, at the very least, there was some minor damage due to erosion and overgrowth. You've conceded that Bane's wave caused the walls of the archway to explode, and inertia did the rest. I've provided evidence of a small ship blowing a giant Rakatan Space station. I mean, what's the defense here, dude? You're general observation stuff isn't gonna work here, nothing says the temple wasn't damaged in anyway, shape or form, your argument is based on a ... well a fallacy.

Example A: Not terribly impressive tbh. Kanan Jarrus is able to lift large stone bridges like that. Now, please note that I am NOT saying Kanan’s feat is equal or even close to what Windu did there, but it’s somewhat within the same wheelhouse. So while it IS impressive, it’s not terribly so, and Windu certainly has better showings.

I'll be frank,I've not seen a decent, and complete Mace Windu RT, I might take on the challenge if no one else has opted to take on the Jedi's giant list of appearances. So, what you say is fair enough>

Example B: That’s more like it. Certainly an impressive showing, but again, not terribly so. There are other showings from other Force users that are pretty much the same, some of which are actually BETTER showings. Like Revan using a Force wave against the second Yavin IV strike team is comparable, if not superior, to Windu’s feat here, simply because several of Revan’s targets were rather powerful Force users. The ability to ragdoll ______ Force using protag, Lana, Satele, and Marr, is certainly comparable to pushing a few dozen droids, and I don’t believe you’re unreasonable enough to disagree with that :), which in itself is still inferior to Bane’s feat, imo.

This is a red herring on your part, buddy. No one but you, is making the comparison between Revan and Mace. Provide a scan/quote where Bane ragdolls anyone of note, then we can proceed to talk, :P

Example C: Hardly comparable, the fact you’re using that as a basis for any kind of argument is, no offense meant at all my friend, laughable. Even if we assume your outlook on Bane’s feat is entirely correct, the ability to explode the walls of an absolutely massive temple such as the one on Lehon, is still FAR superior to pulling a door from its hinges and dropping it.

I agree, Mace ripped the door off it's hinges, and inertia did the rest, just like Bane's feat on Lehon.

Example D: Better, but still not the same. Again, I highly doubt that slightly lifting and then pushing an AT-TE is comparable to decimating the massive walls and supports of a huge-ass structure like the Temple of the Ancients.

A silly comparison, for a silly argument, buddy.

Oh I don’t disagree, not entirely anyway. I do, however, believe Bane’s advantage in the Force, to be greater than Windu’s advantage with a lightsaber, which I plan on going over at some point very soon. It’s all good, it was a good opener.

We'll see.

That said, Mace is just considerably more powerful. Considering he's the only Jedi, barring Skywalker, and perhaps Dooku on Vjun, capable of matching Yoda in Force Strength. I'd post the quotes, but their are a great many quotes comparing the two most powerful Jedi, and this response is already big enough as is, so I'll just post the basics.

He [Mace] seems to be second most powerful jedi on the that council, next to Yoda.

Insider#55

Along with Mace Windu, a senior member of the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful member of the Jedi Order.

Star Wars Fact File 11

That was why Mace was on the Jedi Council. That was why, except for Yoda, Obi-Wan thought him the most powerful Jedi he'd ever known.

Jedi Quest; The False Peace

Though Yoda's junior by eight centuries, Mace Windu is seen as Yoda's equal in the Jedi Order, and he is a senior member of the Jedi Council.

The Phantom Menace Novelisation

I doubt someone as powerful as Mace, is going to be defeated by Bane in a battle of Force Power. This concludes my retort, nice job DB, took me sometime to gather this info, and well, I can't wait for your response bud. Time for me, to pass the frig out.

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darthbane77

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@fated_xtasy: Cool. I'll take the next day or so to get my response around. Shouldn't have it up any later than Wednesday.

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#34  Edited By redheathen

T4V please

Don't let this one die, guys!

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#35  Edited By darthbane77

@fated_xtasy: I ended up visiting my grandparents, and their internet connection is kinda bad, making it harder to find my sources and stuff. So I'll have to wait until I get back to finish my response. Apologies for the delay.

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@fated_xtasy: I ended up visiting my grandparents, and their internet connection is kinda bad, making it harder to find my sources and stuff. So I'll have to wait until I get back to finish my response. Apologies for the delay.

Hey don't worry about it, buddy. Enjoy your little vacation :)

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@fated_xtasy: I'll be back to my house sometime this weekend, I'll be able to get my response typed up and posted sometime around then.

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#39  Edited By darthbane77

@fated_xtasy: Haha, don't count me out just yet, I've got a few arguments up my sleeve yet. The internet here isn't nearly as bad as it was last time I was here, and now I've got some free time, so I'll start up my response sooner than this weekend.

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#40  Edited By darthbane77

By "sooner than this weekend", I mean right now, :) @fated_xtasy

I don't doubt that the harrower is more powerful than 300 year old ships, I'm only asking for to present the quote you had, I'm curious about it for another RT, I'm making. Regardless, your response is noted.

Unfortunately, I couldn’t find the quote I was thinking of, so I have to assume it was either made up, or some Star Wars induced fever dream, haha! So on the point of that specific quote, we’re both gonna have to settle with being disappointed, lol.

---

Ok, cool. You're still not answering the question, how was it not affected by the Harrower? What proof can you present to back up your claim? I've yet to see any.

If it’s evidence you desire, it’s evidence you shall have.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-6148324

---

Ok..?

OK..?

---

So you acknowledge the erosion and overgrowth as a factor then? Good.

Because of the previously used source, I’m actually gonna rescind that small concession, or rather, bring the point back up.

---

That's cool, that said, i find it difficult to believe that when it took 6+ or so Thranta/Hammerhead class cruisers to destroy the Star Forge. which was far more advance than the Temple itself, we're still questioning how much damage a ship - that has had 300 years to advance in tech - did to the Temple, when any and every form of defense the Temple once had was completely destroy by Revan/The Republic when the Star Forge was eviscerated, this is something that is echoed within the novel itself, as well.

Eeeeh, your point here is pretty weak tbh. Three-hundred years of advancement or not, 6+ Hammerheads are >> a single Harrower, based on numbers alone. Plus, the comparison between the Star Forge and Temple isn’t apt, given the Star Forge was more advanced. The logical explanation is that there were far more Republic ships present at the battle than we see, which isn’t really surprising, given that we know Malak’s FLEET destroyed Taris, yet the cutscenes in-game show only the Leviathan. Logic dictates that could have been DOZENS of ships present firing on the Star Forge. As well, the Harrower obviously did little to no damage to the temple anyway, as the quote from PoD suggests. (sorry if this seems disjointed, as I’m writing this, I’m pretty tired).

The basic gist of what I’m trying to say, is that whether there was 300 years of advancement for the Harrower doesn’t seem to matter, compared to the numbers arrayed against the Star Forge, and the fact that Bane notes the Temple to be in pristine condition.Bane also notes that plant life seems to refuse to grow around the temple, while this is obviously not entirely true based on the screenshot I provided (kinda shot myself in the foot there huh? haha) it does help support the idea that any damage to the Temple was superficial at best, if it was present at all.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-6148323

---

I'm sorry, but without it's shield, there's no way the Temple would not sustain some sort of damage, if we're going to take the "common sense" route, then well crap dude, the temple being damaged should one of those "common sense" things as well. But I'd rather provide proof for my claim, so here we go. Frankly, your claim(s) are outlandish, I'm sorry but it's true. Firstly, i sincerely doubt Bane Is capable of producing a telekinetic attack stronger than a turbo-laser, let alone a barrage of turbo-laser fire coming from a dreadnought type ship, of all things. Here's why, when a NJO Era Medical Supply Ship is capable of destroying a Rakatan Space Station, I'm going to doubt the whole "Rakata are so advanced!" spiel.

Well, fortunately for myself, I found evidence to support my “outlandish” claims. Bane’s own statement that the temple was pristine.

As for your argument about the Medical ship, if what you say is true, and the station was destroyed because, and think you’d agree, overloading engines capable of thrusting a ship weighing hundreds, if not thousands, of tons, should cause more damage than turbolasers. Also, proof that the station in your quotes is Rakata?

Finally, the quotes from Theron, don’t imply anything regarding the temple. They imply concern for the PEOPLE that were on the roof of the temple, concern for their safety, and at the time, I’m sure they knew little about the durability of the temple. Bane’s observations of the temple’s condition obviously mean any concern Theron had over the temple itself, was unwarranted.

---

Firstly, if Theron would warn the Strike-Team about Revan's turbo-laser and tell them to get out of there, I'm sure he's actually worried that the Temple's rubble would crush them to death, not to mention that after speaking to the protag, he states that he's surprised they even made out of there, obviously the Harrower did damage the Temple, which would make sense given the fact that it's defenses are nearly non-existent, it's being shot at by a dreadnought, and we've seen how much damage a "tiny" medical supply ship can do to a Space Station - that would be highly advanced, if not more advanced than a Med ship, according to your quote. - thousands of years later, yes? And, the Temple has suffered from both erosion, and overgrowth, even if it is minimal, the damage is there. So, the Temple isn't at it's peak strength when Bane destroyed it, and that's if he destroyed the entirety of the temple at all,

All of these are points I’ve addressed already, so I won’t waste your time by making you re-read through what you just finished reading a minute ago.

---

Yeah, keyword being "shook", as opposed to him destroying the foundation of the Temple, or anything else, dude. And it is relevant, as the battle progressed through the temple until it reached the arch-way, which was the only thing described as being destroyed.

This is untrue, quite simply.

Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.

-Path of Destruction

The walls were likewise destroyed, not just the archway.

---

Excellent, this is progress.

Don’t get too excited. :)

---

Except the fact that Theron was amazed that the protag made out alive after Revan laid waste to the temple, suggests that the protag could of died by the rubble around them, so.

I addressed this in this response once already, again, won’t waste your time with making you read the same counter yet again.

---

That's really quite the claim, buddy. But I reiterate, the Temple was obviously dealt damage over the course of Forged Alliances, Theron/Lana makes this pretty evident, you've already conceded that, at the very least, there was some minor damage due to erosion and overgrowth. You've conceded that Bane's wave caused the walls of the archway to explode, and inertia did the rest. I've provided evidence of a small ship blowing a giant Rakatan Space station. I mean, what's the defense here, dude? You're general observation stuff isn't gonna work here, nothing says the temple wasn't damaged in anyway, shape or form, your argument is based on a ... well a fallacy.

I believe the quote(s) I provided earlier are ample evidence to make sure this specific claim of yours doesn’t exactly stand.

---

I'll be frank,I've not seen a decent, and complete Mace Windu RT, I might take on the challenge if no one else has opted to take on the Jedi's giant list of appearances. So, what you say is fair enough>

My friend Vasili said something about potentially doing a more complete RT for Windu, not sure how serious he is about it though. Either way, Windu needs a proper RT, unfortunately, I don’t have the means to make half the RTs I’d like to make, haha.

---

This is a red herring on your part, buddy. No one but you, is making the comparison between Revan and Mace. Provide a scan/quote where Bane ragdolls anyone of note, then we can proceed to talk, :P

I mean, ragdolling several powerful Force users should logically be >>ragdolling droids. But, since this IS a debate, As a couple of TK feats for Bane:

Ragdolling a Sith Master as a mere apprentice:

Bane feinted as if he was going to press forward, then took a step back, opening a full meter of space between them. It gave him just enough time to cast out his arm in the direction of the unsuspecting Yevra. Catching her up with the Force, he hurled her against one of the nearby shelves hard enough to splinter the wood.

She crumpled to the floor, dazed.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Bane casually killing Qordis with TK, Qordis being among the most powerful members of the Brotherhood of Darkness.

"And therein lies the problem." Bane lashed out with the dark side, seizing Qordis in an immobilizing, crushing grip. His opponent tried to protect himself, throwing up a field to deflect the incoming assault, but Bane's attack tore through the pitiful defense, wiping it away as if it hadn't even been there.

There was a strangled cry of pain from Qordis as the Force tightened around him and lifted him up from the ground.

"Your wisdom has destroyed our order," Bane explained casually, watching as Qordis struggled helplessly above him. "You have polluted the minds of your followers; you and Kaan have led them down the path of ruin."

"I-I don't understand," Qordis gasped, barely able to speak as the breath was squeezed inexorably from his lungs.

"That has always been the problem," Bane replied. "The Brotherhood must be purged. The Sith must be destroyed and rebuilt. You, Kaan, and all the others must be wiped from the face of the galaxy. That is why I have returned."

Dawning horror spread across Qordis's long, drawn features. "Please he groaned, "not ... like this. Release me. Let me ... draw my lightsaber. Let us fight ... like Sith."

Bane tilted his head to the side. "Surely you know I could kill you just as easily with my lightsaber as I could with the Force."

"I . . . know." Qordis's skin was turning red, and his body was trembling as the pressure mounted. Each word he spoke took tremendous effort, yet somehow the dying man found the strength to make his final plea. "More ... honor ... in ... death ... by ... combat?'

Bane gave an indifferent shrug. "Honor is for the living. Dead is dead."

A final push with his mind tightened the invisible vise. Qordis let out a final scream, but with no air in his lungs it came out only as a rattling gasp that was lost beneath the snapping and crackling of his bones.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

For proof that Qordis is among Kaan's most powerful, here's his RT. I'm sure you're familiar with it.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/emperordmb/blog/lord-qordis-respect-thread/125786/

Ragdolling Zannah, though I will note that Bane was amped somewhat by his Orbalisks.

"Listen to me, Master!" she shouted now that she had put some distance between them. "If I wanted to betray you, why didn't I help them during the-oooffff!"

Bane hit her with a powerful Force throw, sending her hurtling backward. Only the barrier she had instinctively thrown up at the last second to shield herself saved her bones from being shattered by the concussive force of the impact.

Darth Bane: Rule of Two

These, among other things, are, imo, impressive enough to sustain my point.

---

I agree, Mace ripped the door off it's hinges, and inertia did the rest, just like Bane's feat on Lehon.

It’s still not comparable, despite your “inertia” statement. Blasting apart the temple walls and archway, with its established durability, is far more impressive than Windu’s feat with the door.

---

A silly comparison, for a silly argument, buddy.

Silly how? Based on the Temple’s obviously immense durability, I don’t see how you’d disagree that Mace’s feat is inferior.

---

That said, Mace is just considerably more powerful. Considering he's the only Jedi, barring Skywalker, and perhaps Dooku on Vjun, capable of matching Yoda in Force Strength. I'd post the quotes, but their are a great many quotes comparing the two most powerful Jedi, and this response is already big enough as is, so I'll just post the basics.

Dooku is stated to be Windu’s equal on more than occasion, no? Logically, on a Dark Side nexus, he would be above Windu. With that, Dooku on Vjun still failed to defeat Yoda, despite Yoda being hindered on top of Dooku’s amp. Yoda is, obviously, much farther above Windu and Dooku than you seem to think. As for the quotes you provided, none of them are at all convincing as far as the “Windu~/=Yoda” argument goes, and I’ll explain why.

He [Mace] seems to be second most powerful jedi on the that council, next to Yoda.

Insider#55

Nothing much to disprove here, it says Windu is second to Yoda, which really means very little. You can be the second most powerful Jedi and still be vastly weaker than the most powerful Jedi. Using Revan as an example again (I know, original right?) Revan was the most powerful Jedi of his age, and Meetra the second, yet Surik, by all accounts, was nowhere near as powerful as Revan. Another example is Luke Skywalker and Kyp Durron or Jaina Solo, either Kyp or Jaina can be argued as the NJO's second best, but neither of them are in the same wheelhouse as Luke. Now, obviously Windu is more powerful than Surik, and I'm not saying Windu is vastly below Kyp or Jaina, but logic and precedent stand to say that Windu being second only to Yoda doesn’t need to mean Windu is at all comparable to Yoda. This same argument and logic can apply to almost all of the quotes you provided here. Except this one:

Though Yoda's junior by eight centuries, Mace Windu is seen as Yoda's equal in the Jedi Order, and he is a senior member of the Jedi Council.

The Phantom Menace Novelization

Now this one warrants a separate response, but the end result is the same. Windu and Yoda are stated as equals within the order, but there is no mention made of power. This can easily be interpreted to mean that Windu and Yoda hold equal sway on the council, equal POLITICAL power, not Force power. Which is backed by comparison of Yoda and Windu’s feats, of which Yoda has the better.

---

I doubt someone as powerful as Mace, is going to be defeated by Bane in a battle of Force Power. This concludes my retort, nice job DB, took me sometime to gather this info, and well, I can't wait for your response bud. Time for me, to pass the frig out.

Sidious doubted he would be killed by Luke in DE, doubt means nothing to dem straight fact boio. haha

Good rebuttal my friend, Fated, if a bit easy to counter, :).

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@darthbane77 Whoa my dude, nice to see your response, unfortunately, i won't be able to respond till December due to the holidays, work I need to be doing, and of course NaNoWriMo. That said, my internet won't be too bad, I think, so in between all that I'll work on my response and hopefully I'll have it up before December. :D

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@fated_xtasy, just reminding you that this thread is still a thing. lol

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@darthbane77 said:

Unfortunately, I couldn’t find the quote I was thinking of, so I have to assume it was either made up, or some Star Wars induced fever dream, haha! So on the point of that specific quote, we’re both gonna have to settle with being disappointed, lol.

Very well.

If it’s evidence you desire, it’s evidence you shall have.

What? lol, Ok.

Because of the previously used source, I’m actually gonna rescind that small concession, or rather, bring the point back up.

we'll see.

Three-hundred years of advancement or not, 6+ Hammerheads are >> a single Harrower, based on numbers alone.

Yeah, prolly. Though, the Hammerheads were limited in their ability to coordinate due to their data systems being incapable of dealing with the stress of "large fleet actions," according to the KOTOR RPG campaign guide(Not to be confused with the KOTOR Prima guide.) But that's a debate for another time, unless you want fight that bad on this, whatever the case I leave that to you.

Plus, the comparison between the Star Forge and Temple isn’t apt, given the Star Forge was more advanced.

Indeed, so it would make assuming the Temple would be damaged by a single, more advanced, battle-cruiser - Similar to The Oppressor which was capable of crippling Taris - is only logical right?

he logical explanation is that there were far more Republic ships present at the battle than we see, which isn’t really surprising, given that we know Malak’s FLEET destroyed Taris, yet the cutscenes in-game show only the Leviathan. Logic dictates that could have been DOZENS of ships present firing on the Star Forge.

Yes. there were smaller republic ships, yes Malak's fleet did destroy Taris, I would attribute this to the fact that his fleet destroyed the Endar Spire, his fleet also attacked the Ebon Hawk, more so than whatever you're trying to insinuate. That said, yes, smaller ships did attempt to attack the Star Forge... they just failed to do any damage lol. Not to mention they would be attempting to keep the remaining ships at bay. so you're right, they are there, however whatever assistance they provided was negligible

As well, the Harrower obviously did little to no damage to the temple anyway, as the quote from PoD suggests. (sorry if this seems disjointed, as I’m writing this, I’m pretty tired).

Is that so?

The basic gist of what I’m trying to say, is that whether there was 300 years of advancement for the Harrower doesn’t seem to matter, compared to the numbers arrayed against the Star Forge, and the fact that Bane notes the Temple to be in pristine condition.Bane also notes that plant life seems to refuse to grow around the temple, while this is obviously not entirely true based on the screenshot I provided (kinda shot myself in the foot there huh? haha) it does help support the idea that any damage to the Temple was superficial at best, if it was present at all.

Ok, I'm having trouble following you, DB, so.. you first stated the following:

At first, this may seem only mildly impressive, but in reality, it’s incredibly impressive, the Lehon temple’s size in the PoD novel is reflective of the temple’s size in the first KOTOR game, which was relatively small, however, the temple seen in KOTOR was later retconned to be far larger in SWTOR.

You, in your first post.

You're using TOR, a source which you correctly state that has retconned the size of the Temple in the universe, and proceed to say:

Now, more than just the size of the temple was changed, we also got a good look at its durability in SWTOR. This temple tanked direct bombardment from a Harrower Class Dreadnought, one of the most powerful ship types of the era.

And now you're citing POD, the source you stated was overridden by SWTOR, as your proof? I'm sure you know, as someone who just went through the source, that this is the same material that notes the Temple's height as being twenty meters. yes?

Suddenly they broke through into a clearing, a circle nearly one hundred meters across. In the very center stood the Rakatan Temple. The structure rose nearly twenty meters to the sky, a monument of carved rock and stone.

POD

I'm sorry, but which source are you sticking too? Bane notes that the temple is pristine, but clearly the TOR shows something else entirely from that. I mean, the only logical reason I could see for Temple being smaller is the very likely possibility that Revan's bombardment did more damage than we had originally thought. So, please explain which source you’re sticking too, because there no way you can use both sources without them coming into conflict with one-another, especially when it comes to Bane's supposed "best" feat.

Well, fortunately for myself, I found evidence to support my “outlandish” claims. Bane’s own statement that the temple was pristine.

Support that is in contention with your previous statements. Which can be summarized as putting one's foot in their mouths. No offense.

As for your argument about the Medical ship, if what you say is true, and the station was destroyed because, and think you’d agree, overloading engines capable of thrusting a ship weighing hundreds, if not thousands, of tons, should cause more damage than turbolasers. Also, proof that the station in your quotes is Rakata?

Why of course.

He sat in the middle of a wide corridor. The dim, intermittent flashes of the strange overhead lights showed little detail. The walls, ceilings, and floors were composed of a substance he'd never seen before, light green, semitranslucent. At first he thought it was some form of plastoid, or hued transparisteel, but no, it was a resin of some kind. For the first time, he realized that the floor was not merely vibrating under him, it was warm, like flesh. Faint lines of light glowed deep within it, barely visible, capillaries of luminescence. The arrangement looked ordered, a matrix of some kind, and the pattern of their flashes was not random, though he could not look at it long without its flashes disorienting him.

He tried to make sense of what he was seeing. The architecture, the technology it implied :

Where was he?

A word leapt to the forefront of his mind, a flash that came and went without explanation.

Rakatan.

Star Wars: Riptide

Here's another.

They took position in Flotsam's cockpit, ran a quick diagnostic, and got on the comm with Khedryn. The ship's boat detached from Junker and floated free in space. Jaden engaged the engines and the small craft darted toward the enormous station.

"I'm curious as to what that tether connects to below the surface," Marr said.

"As am I," Jaden answered, imagining a hollow planet filled with Rakatan technology.

"I'll swing Junker into the fringe of the asteroid belt," Khedryn said. "Just to stay out of sight."

Star Wars: Riptide

And another

Flotsam closed on the enormous Rakatan cylinder. Jaden piloted the boat in close, studying the smooth, glistening surface of the cylinder through the cockpit's canopy. As they flew over it, the surface rippled and bulged, not unlike the skin of the sick clones.

Star Wars: Riptide

Another.

Nyss saw the scan readout in his HUD, which indicated a huge structure in geosynchronous orbit above the rocky surface of a desolate planet. He pulled the flyer above the plane of the asteroid belt and caused the image in the transparisteel canopy to magnify.

There, he saw it clearly-an enormous, greenish lozenge floating above the planet, connected to the surface by a miles-long shaft. He did not need further scans to know that the station was a mechano-organic construct. He recognized the telltale signs of Rakatan technology, the same technology reflected in the mindspears he carried.

"What is that?" the Iteration asked.

"A Rakatan station," Nyss said.

Star Wars: Riptide

And another.

He patted Junker's instrument panel and allowed himself a relieved breath. He hoped the Umbaran had blown himself up in the asteroid belt, but a scan of the area showed otherwise.

The scout ship was headed fast toward the Rakatan station on the dark side of the planet.

Star Wars: Riptide

Would you care for more proof? or is that enough?

Finally, the quotes from Theron, don’t imply anything regarding the temple. They imply concern for the PEOPLE that were on the roof of the temple, concern for their safety, and at the time, I’m sure they knew little about the durability of the temple. Bane’s observations of the temple’s condition obviously mean any concern Theron had over the temple itself, was unwarranted.

LMAO, no, it means that a book that was published September 26, 2006, didn't take into account the "concern" a character created 4 years, 8 months, and 13 days later, had.(btw, that's June 8th of 2011) So, whatever view Bane held in regards to the condition of the temple, is kind of invalidated. With that said, I need to know what source are you sticking to? Because you can't just plant yourself firmly into one side, and then switch to the other side when it suits your agenda/needs, my dude.

All of these are points I’ve addressed already, so I won’t waste your time by making you re-read through what you just finished reading a minute ago.

You know, I'm actually thankful for that, no sarcasm. Debates often get lost in repeating the shame stuff over, and over, so thanks! :p

I mean, ragdolling several powerful Force users should logically be >>ragdolling droids. But, since this IS a debate, As a couple of TK feats for Bane:

Ragdolling a Sith Master as a mere apprentice:

Que? Firstly, Yevra is fodder compared to the likes of Sirak, let that sink in. Secondly, Githany killed Yevra, not Bane. Lastly, all of the students on the Sith Academy of Korriban were given the title of Dark Lord of the Sith, which includes Bane, as well. So, no, Bane wasn't a "mere apprentice." And Yevra being a Dark Lord - not a Sith Master - isn't as impressive as it seems when Bane holds the exact, same, title.

The news that Bane had returned did not sit well with Qordis. The timing couldn't have been worse. Lord Kaan had sent an urgent message: everyone from the Academy was to come to Ruusan to join the battle against the Jedi. The apprentices were all to be presented with lightsabers and given seats in the Brotherhood of Darkness, elevating them to the ranks of the Dark Lords of the Sith.

POD

If anything, despite their title, the two were technically equal, in title only, at best.

"I of all people should have known better than to underestimate you," she said. "You saw me take your lightsaber! That's why you followed me."

"No," Bane replied, still heady from the rush of killing his enemy. "I didn't see anything. I was just guessing?'

For a brief moment her expression darkened; then she burst out with a laugh. "You never cease to amaze me, Lord Bane."

"Don't call me that," he said.

"Why not?" she asked. "Qordis has given all the students the rank of Dark Lord of the Sith."

POD

I don't know where you got the idea that Yevra was a sith master, and Bane an apprentice, but it sure is..odd.

For proof that Qordis is among Kaan's most powerful, here's his RT. I'm sure you're familiar with it.

Considering the fact that Bane, before he himself finally accepted his title of Dark Lord, considers Qordis a master of nothing.

When Bane hesitated, Qordis spoke again. "Take it, Lord Bane." He put a special emphasis on the new title. It sounded sour in Bane's ears: an empty honor bestowed by a fool who believed himself a Master.

POD

Not to mention, that being the strongest out of a bunch of weaklings isn't impressive at all. Consider this:



He(Bane) wouldn't be foolish enough to say so, of course. The Brotherhood would never follow him; neither would Qordis or any of the others at the Academy. Weak and ignorant as they were, they could still overwhelm him with their numbers.

POD

I honestly, don't how worth we put into Palpatine's word when he's never met Qordis, as opposed to Bane who considers the man a weakling..

It’s still not comparable, despite your “inertia” statement. Blasting apart the temple walls and archway, with its established durability, is far more impressive than Windu’s feat with the door.

I never stated it was comparable, merely that the way the feats are executed are similar, given that they both rip the support of something, and, gravity does the rest.


Silly how? Based on the Temple’s obviously immense durability, I don’t see how you’d disagree that Mace’s feat is inferior.

That statement is highly questionable, my dude.

Dooku is stated to be Windu’s equal on more than occasion, no?

I believe so, yes.

Logically, on a Dark Side nexus, he would be above Windu.

Arguable.

With that, Dooku on Vjun still failed to defeat Yoda, despite Yoda being hindered on top of Dooku’s amp.

Yeah, and Yoda failed to beat Sidious, you wouldn't necessarily say that Sheev is on a whole different level than Yoda, would you? Not to mention.

Yoda is, obviously, much farther above Windu and Dooku than you seem to think. As for the quotes you provided, none of them are at all convincing as far as the “Windu~/=Yoda” argument goes, and I’ll explain why.

Aight.

Nothing much to disprove here, it says Windu is second to Yoda, which really means very little. You can be the second most powerful Jedi and still be vastly weaker than the most powerful Jedi. Using Revan as an example again (I know, original right?) Revan was the most powerful Jedi of his age, and Meetra the second, yet Surik, by all accounts, was nowhere near as powerful as Revan. Another example is Luke Skywalker and Kyp Durron or Jaina Solo, either Kyp or Jaina can be argued as the NJO's second best, but neither of them are in the same wheelhouse as Luke. Now, obviously Windu is more powerful than Surik, and I'm not saying Windu is vastly below Kyp or Jaina, but logic and precedent stand to say that Windu being second only to Yoda doesn’t need to mean Windu is at all comparable to Yoda. This same argument and logic can apply to almost all of the quotes you provided here. Except this one:

Except... some quotes call Mace Yoda's equal in the Jedi Order(meaning force or what have you), then continue to call him the most senior member of the Council.. in the same quote, so?

Not to mention that they refer to power in each, and everyone of those quotes, so you're points kind of moot. I mean, who has ever considered a quote calling a Jedi powerful to mean political power? I mean, heck, the Council themselves detest involving themselves in politics lol. I understand you what you're trying to get at, but it doesn't apply here, sorry, i guess.

Though Yoda's junior by eight centuries, Mace Windu is seen as Yoda's equal in the Jedi Order, and he is a senior member of the Jedi Council.

I'm sorry, but I just can't put Bane above the likes of Mace, this guys took on Palaptine when the most revered of swordmasters fell to the Sith Lord, is considered an equal to one of the most prolific duelists of the era, an equal to the second greatest Jedi Grandmaster, ever, has dueled evenly with a Jedi-Killer capable of single-handedly destroying the likes of Mundi, Ti, and the like, I just don't see it, Sorry.

That's my response for the time being, I apologize for the long wait, I've been busy with the holidays, cooking for thanksgiving, and putting up decorations for my favorite freaking holiday ever!(hint, hint, it's awesome) So it's taken me awhile, hope you had a lovely thanksgiving if you celebrate it, DB, or just a lovely day in general if you don't ;D

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darthbane77

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@fated_xtasy: I'll get to this as soon as I can. Just had an operation done a few days ago and I currently lack the energy to do pretty much anything. Once I'm fully recouped I'll be able to get back to this.

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*Grabs popcorn... waiting.

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#48  Edited By darthbane77

@fated_xtasy: recouped and ready to go, I'll have my response up in the next couple days.

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Will have my counter up tomorrow. Have it all typed up, just need to edit it and junk.

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@fated_xtasy:

“Yeah, prolly. Though, the Hammerheads were limited in their ability to coordinate due to their data systems being incapable of dealing with the stress of "large fleet actions," according to the KOTOR RPG campaign guide(Not to be confused with the KOTOR Prima guide.) But that's a debate for another time, unless you want fight that bad on this, whatever the case I leave that to you.”

Eh, I don’t think it’s something to push. From what you said, you do agree that several Hammerheads>>a single Harrower, which was my point anyway. So I’ll count that as a win and let the point drop.

“Indeed, so it would make assuming the Temple would be damaged by a single, more advanced, battle-cruiser - Similar to The Oppressor which was capable of crippling Taris - is only logical right?”

It would be, if there wasn’t other information contradicting the idea of the temple being damaged. Something we have a source directly saying as much.

“Yes. there were smaller republic ships, yes Malak's fleet did destroy Taris, I would attribute this to the fact that his fleet destroyed the Endar Spire, his fleet also attacked the Ebon Hawk, more so than whatever you're trying to insinuate. That said, yes, smaller ships did attempt to attack the Star Forge... they just failed to do any damage lol. Not to mention they would be attempting to keep the remaining ships at bay. so you're right, they are there, however whatever assistance they provided was negligible

I don’t recognize a lot of the shots used in that video, and the description of the video makes it seem like it’s an edited version. Were there cutscenes in the PC version or something that weren’t in the Xbox version? Anyway, I feel like that video, if we assume it to be good evidence (again, the video is an edited one, so I’m not sure I trust it entirely) I think it actually helps me, because it proves that there were many more ships than just the three Hammerheads seen in most of the cutscenes. As well, it seems that the Star Forge wasn’t actually outright destroyed by the Republic ships, rather, several of them concentrated fire on a single spot and appeared to have caused a chain reaction that resulted in the station’s destruction. So any possible comparisons drawn between this event and the NJO era ship destroying a Rakatan station are kind of pointless, as the Star Forge was obviously not able to be destroyed by simple bombardment or firepower, rather, a weak spot needed to be targeted by what appeared to be a large-ish portion of the Republic’s fleet.

“Is that so?”

It is.

“And now you're citing POD, the source you stated was overridden by SWTOR, as your proof? I'm sure you know, as someone who just went through the source, that this is the same material that notes the Temple's height as being twenty meters. Yes?”

Right. The SIZE of the temple was retconned, nothing else, everything else is entirely usable, as nothing else is directly contradicted.

“I'm sorry, but which source are you sticking too? Bane notes that the temple is pristine, but clearly the TOR shows something else entirely from that. I mean, the only logical reason I could see for Temple being smaller is the very likely possibility that Revan's bombardment did more damage than we had originally thought. So, please explain which source you’re sticking too, because there no way you can use both sources without them coming into conflict with one-another, especially when it comes to Bane's supposed "best" feat.”

It’s actually very easy to reconcile the two, aside from the retconned size, everything else can be explained. For example, Bane’s analysis of the temple being pristine isn’t necessarily wrong, as even in KOTOR, the temple showcased some minor damage, if you notice, one of the pillar/outcroppings at the top of the temple in KOTOR is damaged, and that same pillar is damaged in SWTOR, with the only added “damage” being minor vegetation growing sparsely across the sides of the temple. So really, when examined visually, the temple in SWTOR has no more damage done to it than what it did in KOTOR, and Bane’s description was meant to reflect what was seen of the temple’s condition in KOTOR. So the two sources are both perfectly usable.

“Support that is in contention with your previous statements. Which can be summarized as putting one's foot in their mouths. No offense.”

As explained in my recent comment, I haven’t actually contradicted myself.

“Why of course.”

Fair enough, it’s Rakatan. However, that doesn’t really change my overall point. The explosion of a ship’s engine should be far more powerful than the firepower of ancient turbolasers. The strength of the explosion of the engine would likely have been considerably in excess of what would have been needed to destroy a lesser Rakatan station, one which would have obviously been less powerful and durable than the Star Forge, the Rakatan Empire’s pride and joy.

“LMAO, no, it means that a book that was published September 26, 2006, didn't take into account the "concern" a character created 4 years, 8 months, and 13 days later, had.(btw, that's June 8th of 2011) So, whatever view Bane held in regards to the condition of the temple, is kind of invalidated. With that said, I need to know what source are you sticking to? Because you can't just plant yourself firmly into one side, and then switch to the other side when it suits your agenda/needs, my dude.”

My prior explanation for my use of both sources should suffice for this as well. That being said, nothing you’ve said here contradicts or disproves what I said:

“Finally, the quotes from Theron, don’t imply anything regarding the temple. They imply concern for the PEOPLE that were on the roof of the temple, concern for their safety, and at the time, I’m sure they knew little about the durability of the temple. Bane’s observations of the temple’s condition obviously mean any concern Theron had over the temple itself, was unwarranted.”

“You know, I'm actually thankful for that, no sarcasm. Debates often get lost in repeating the shame stuff over, and over, so thanks! :p”

Sure, no problem.

“Que? Firstly, Yevra is fodder compared to the likes of Sirak, let that sink in. Secondly, Githany killed Yevra, not Bane. Lastly, all of the students on the Sith Academy of Korriban were given the title of Dark Lord of the Sith, which includes Bane, as well. So, no, Bane wasn't a "mere apprentice." And Yevra being a Dark Lord - not a Sith Master - isn't as impressive as it seems when Bane holds the exact, same, title….If anything, despite their title, the two were technically equal, in title only, at best….I don't know where you got the idea that Yevra was a sith master, and Bane an apprentice, but it sure is..odd.”

I’m actually not sure where I got the idea she was a Sith Master either. I remember being pretty tired when I wrote my last response, so maybe I got confused, lol. Feats were required to be provided, and I did so.

“Considering the fact that Bane, before he himself finally accepted his title of Dark Lord, considers Qordis a master of nothing.

Not to mention, that being the strongest out of a bunch of weaklings isn't impressive at all. Consider this:

I honestly, don't how worth we put into Palpatine's word when he's never met Qordis, as opposed to Bane who considers the man a weakling..”

Bane considered every member of the Brotherhood, with the exception of Kaan and (iirc) Kas’im, to be weak. It doesn’t actually mean they were, and Qordis was considered by his other contemporaries to have been pretty powerful. Bane’s contempt for Qordis makes his personal thought and analysis of Qordis' power somewhat unreliable.

“I never stated it was comparable, merely that the way the feats are executed are similar, given that they both rip the support of something, and, gravity does the rest. “

So then, your point is that _____ Force user can lift stuff, and then let gravity drop said stuff? Regardless of how the physics of the feats worked, one is clearly superior to the other. Making the point of “well physics helped” is pointless because OBVIOUSLY gravity is going to drop the objects in some capacity.

“That statement is highly questionable, my dude.”

How so? Pushing an AT-TE off a cliff isn’t really that impressive. It’s been replicated to different extents by several other Force users. Busting immense buildings while vastly pre-prime, however, is something that ranks among even Vader’s best feats (destroying the large cathedral) which Bane’s feat is more than comparable to. I feel that logic should dictate that leveling a large structure>>>pushing a vehicle off a cliff.

“Arguable.”

I should specify that I mean in regards to the Force only. Not counting any possible amps that Windu might be granted from Vaapad’s loop, assuming it worked to a similar extent as it did against Sidious. But thus far, you’ve provided no feats for Windu that are at all comparable to the destructive force demonstrated by Bane. You showed Windu pull a door off its hinges, pish a few dozen droids, and push an AT-TE off a cliff. As opposed to Bane, whether through gravity or not, temple busting.

“Yeah, and Yoda failed to beat Sidious, you wouldn't necessarily say that Sheev is on a whole different level than Yoda, would you? Not to mention.”

So, Windu is stated to be ~ Dooku, so this is a non Vaapad heightened Windu, I’m assuming. Dark Side Nexus amped Dooku, who would be above Windu, is still incapable of besting Yoda. So by scaling, Yoda>amped Dooku>base Dooku~Windu, Yoda>>Windu. You can probably already tell that I’m not counting anything Windu gets from Vaapad against Dark Siders, only using his base self. It’s simple scaling. Also, no, I don’t. I’ve got ROTS Sidious and Yoda pretty much neck and neck, with Sidious edging it out just barely. I do, however, believe Yoda and Sidious are on a whole different level than Dooku and Windu.

“Aight.”

I’ll collect my sources and address why the “Windu~/=Yoda” argument is bunk, either in the next counter, or in a separate comment altogether, since it might be rather lengthy. Plus, it’ll take a little while for me to get all the quotes I need.

“Except... some quotes call Mace Yoda's equal in the Jedi Order(meaning force or what have you), then continue to call him the most senior member of the Council.. in the same quote, so?

Not to mention that they refer to power in each, and everyone of those quotes, so you're points kind of moot. I mean, who has ever considered a quote calling a Jedi powerful to mean political power? I mean, heck, the Council themselves detest involving themselves in politics lol. I understand you what you're trying to get at, but it doesn't apply here, sorry, i guess.”

You would need to prove they’re referring specifically to the Force, none of the quotes you provided to me make that at all clear. Plus, assuming they are referring to power, they’re unsupported by feats. Which Yoda has the superior of, sans for Windu’s “defeating” of Sidious, which can be argued as a ploy by Sidious, entirely circumstantial, or both. I didn’t mean the politics of the Republic, I meant self contained hierarchy within the order itself, politics was poor word choice on my part. What I meant was that Windu and Yoda share equal power in the Jedi Order’s hierarchy, equal decision making power, equal military sway, etc. Nothing in the quotes you provided explicitly states nor implies that they were equals in the Force, plus, Yoda has several accolades of his own stating he’s the most powerful Jedi of the time, Windu has nothing of the sort. So any accolades stating Windu=Yoda, are challenged both by Yoda’s feats and Yoda’s own ">all other Jedi" accolades.

“I'm sorry, but I just can't put Bane above the likes of Mace, this guys took on Palaptine when the most revered of swordmasters fell to the Sith Lord, is considered an equal to one of the most prolific duelists of the era, an equal to the second greatest Jedi Grandmaster, ever, has dueled evenly with a Jedi-Killer capable of single-handedly destroying the likes of Mundi, Ti, and the like, I just don't see it, Sorry.”

Windu’s duel with Sidious was entirely circumstantial, and it can just as easily be argued that Sidious allowed him to win. That, however, will be a long ass explanation, so I’ll make that point in a separate comment, like I’ll do with the “Windu~/=Yoda” point, if you want me to elaborate on why I think Windu vs Sidious was circumstantial.