CaV: Dark Schneider (mevbi) vs Ren Amamiya (vibecheckfailed) -VOTING CLOSED-

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vibecheckfailed

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#1  Edited By vibecheckfailed
My obvious charms and god-like powers always dazzle the simple, ordinary folk.
My obvious charms and god-like powers always dazzle the simple, ordinary folk.
No Caption Provided
Did you enjoy the show?
Did you enjoy the show?

Rules

  • End-Game Ren with Composite Compendium (including DLCs from base game & Royal)
  • Strongest version of Dark Schneider
  • Basic Knowledge
  • No prep time
  • Conceptual Manipulation restricted for Ren
  • Bloodlusted
  • Battle takes place in an indestructible Universe
  • Win by death or K.O

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vibecheckfailed

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#2  Edited By vibecheckfailed
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mevbi

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#3  Edited By mevbi
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vibecheckfailed

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#4  Edited By vibecheckfailed

@mevbi: I'll go first. I'll post my opener as soon as possible.

Edit: My opener should be up on Monday or Wednesday.

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Guzmania

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T4V and TAEP, I'm interested

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RikuYamaha

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On Jah? Two Coolio viners caving? T4V and TAEP

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debunkdude

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T4V and TAEP

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CaoCao

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That is a hard CaV. First two good debaters and second, two haxed characters. Hell, i am in.

T4V and TAEP please.

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Lsoon23

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TAEV

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baph

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T4V.

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MoneyyJunee

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T4V

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johnsmjs36

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T4V and TAEP

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DarkOcean

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T4V and TAEP

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COOLGUY18

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T4V and TAEP

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vibecheckfailed

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#16  Edited By vibecheckfailed

Note 1; This is my first CaV, so don't expect much.

Note 2; The same video may appear multiple times.

Note 3; I have almost zero knowledge on Dark Schneider.

Note 4; I'll try to keep this as short as possible.

Note 5; If there's anything wrong with my opener I'll happily redo it when I have time.

Ren Amamiya

No Caption Provided

Bio

Ren Amamiya is the main protagonist of Persona 5. He is a second-year high school student who transfers to Shujin Academy after a false assault charge issued by Masayoshi Shido, which caused him to end up with a one year probation sentence. Jumping a bit further, Ren becomes the leader of the Phantom Thieves, a group whose purpose is to steal the hearts of corrupted adults in order to create a reformed society.

Abilities ("list")

  • Durability, Resistance and Invulnerability ignoring/bypassing attacks
  • Immortality and Regeneration Negation (Can affect Abstract Entities as well)
  • Resurrection
  • Healing
  • Regeneration
  • Instakill abilities
  • Attack Reflection
  • Passive Skills (boost, enhance, null, repel)
  • Superhuman Speed (without Personas)
  • Resistance to Resistance Negation, Durability Negation, Time Stop, Existence Erasure, should have Resistance to Reality Warping and Conceptual Manipulation
  • Plus a few others, but I'll go through them later on

Durability

Even if it sounds strange, this part isn't really that necessary. Since we are using Ren with Composite Compendium, he nulls / drains / repels most types of attacks;

  • Physical
  • Gun
  • Fire, Ice, Wind, Electric
  • Light - Bless/Holy
  • Darkness / Curse
  • Nuclear
  • Psychokinesis
  • Almighty (ignores Resistances, Durability and Invulnerability)

A few examples of null/drain/repel;

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Repel;

Loading Video...

Null;

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Drain;

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After awakening Satanael, Ren nullified Yaldabaoth's Rays of Control, which can bypass Resistances, Invulnerability and Durability, just like every Almighty attack (and shields [Makarakarn] as well).

Loading Video...

He has other durability feats as well;

He can survive "Big Bang Challenge", which is comparable, if not equal, to a literal Big Bang;

Loading Video...

For the Existence Erasure; Every single Phantom Thief already resisted and survived Existence Erasure, as seen when they started to disappear from people's cognition;

Loading Video...

For the Time Stop resistance; Ren was able to move during Time Stop when he first arrived at Shibuya;

Loading Video...

Reality Warping / Conceptual Manipulation resistance; Ren should be completely immune to all of Yaldabaoth's attacks and abilities because he didn't outhax them in their battle, but this is just my assumption.

Strength

Ren can casually move Stars around at insane speeds and even capable of moving one to Earth in a near-instant;

Loading Video...

Far superior to a Shadow capable of causing a Big Bang;

Loading Video...

and far superior to God of Control (G.o.C) Yaldabaoth, who, in a much weaker form, casually merged the Metaverse and Reality (basically, merging 2 Universes) together.

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Yaldabaoth is an immortal, abstract entity, being made by the unconscious thoughts of humanity. His immortality is dependent on the human's wishes to escape from the burden of freedom. Which basically means he can't die as long as humanity wishes for an escape from the burden of freedom. Ren effortlessly one shot Yaldabaoth, negating his Immortality and killing him completely;

Loading Video...

Speed

Ren is easily capable of dodging Big Bang Challenge, which covers a Universe (Galaxy sized even with lowball) sized distance in a few seconds.

(the only video I found where one of them actually dodges the attack)

Loading Video...

He can also use attacks such as Morning Star and Cosmic Flare (Cosmic Flare covers a Galaxy sized distance in a near-instant);

Loading Video...
Loading Video...

Ren can also tag Shadows capable of dodging Morning Star and Cosmic Flare with his knife (without using his Personas)

Abilities ("explanation")

Durability, Resistance and Invulnerability ignoring/bypassing attacks

Every single Almighty attack ignores Durability, Resistances and Invulnerability (+ bypasses shields). I can't really find a video where an Almighty attack hits Arahabaki or anyone with great resistances. I'll probably post a video after I have time to play P5 again (or if anyone has a video, then I would appreciate it if you could send it to me)

Immortality and Regeneration Negation (Can affect Abstract Entities as well)

Ren negated Yaldabaoth (an abstract entity)'s Immortality and Regeneration with Sinful Shell. As I explained before, Yaldabaoth cannot die as long as humanity wishes for an escape from the burden of freedom, and Ren still one shot him.

Loading Video...

Resurrection

After being "killed" / KO'd, Ren can resurrect once with full HP (which would mean fully healed, without any injuries). I couldn't find a video again, but I can post pictures this time;

No Caption Provided

Healing

Ren has several healing skills that can restore his health (heal all of his injuries);

Loading Video...

Regeneration

He can regenerate to an extent between rounds (not sure how would this work in an actual, non-turn based battle, but we'll see)

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Instakill abilities

Ren has several instakill moves with medium success rate. He also has one with a rather high success rate;

Loading Video...

Attack Reflection

He can reflect Physical, Gun, Fire, Ice, Wind, Electric, Light - Bless/Holy, Darkness/Curse, Nuclear and Psychokinesis attacks / abilities

Loading Video...

Passive Skills (boost, enhance, null, repel)

There isn't much to explain. Ren has passive skills that automatically increases his accuracy/evasion and defense or boosts the power of certain attack types.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Superhuman Speed (without Personas)

I've mentioned this before, but he can tag Shadows capable of dodging Morning Star and Cosmic Flare.

Resistance to Resistance Negation, Durability Negation, Time Stop, Existence Erasure, should have Resistance to Reality Warping and Conceptual Manipulation

Ren nullified Yaldabaoth's Rays of Control, which ignores Durability, Resistances and Invulnerability;

Loading Video...

Was unaffected by Time Stop when he first arrived at Shibuya;

Loading Video...

Resisted Existence Erasure when they started to disappear from the people's cognition;

Loading Video...

Copy-pasting from the "Durability" section;

"Reality Warping / Conceptual Manipulation resistance; Ren should be completely immune to all of Yaldabaoth's attacks and abilities because he didn't outhax them in their battle, but this is just my assumption."

Conclusion;

I can't make a proper conclusion yet because I barely have any knowledge on Dark Schneider. But from what I know, he shouldn't be able to hurt Ren and he could possibly kill Dark Schneider with "Sinful Shell" due to Immortality and Regeneration Negation.

A little fun fact to the end of my opener;

The voice actor of Igor, an important Persona character, died in 2012, but instead of recording new voices, they are reusing the audio data from previous games.

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AkshSarpanch

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T4v

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UltimateSage

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#19 UltimateSage  Online

Nice! The lay out is good, I can see the guys feats clearly.......now we wait for the counters.....

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mevbi

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mevbi

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Guzmania

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Yeah, and nice first post btw

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CaoCao

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Good post. I can´t wait for the next one.

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johnsmjs36

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Nice

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RikuYamaha

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Yeah, tag me after each posts

Btw, good opener.

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DarkOcean

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Count me in

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mevbi

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#27  Edited By mevbi

Dark Schneider

No Caption Provided

Note: there is a lot of swearing and nudity in Bastard! so be prepared

Enjoy the music while you are reading:

Loading Video...

Bio

Since you have no idea who Dark Schneider is let me introduce you to his story.Darsh is the main character of Bastard!! and is the most powerful wizard of its universe. 15 years prior to the current timeline, he had an army of wizards and warriors led by the "Riders of Havok". He was defeated by Lars Ul Metallicana, but used his magic to reincarnate himself into a young boy named Lushe Ren Ren.

Abilities and powers

Insanely haxed character. Many years ago he was probably considered one of the most strongest Anime/Manga character and let me show you why

  • Superhuman strength
  • Superhuman speed
  • Superhuman durability
  • Regeneration
  • Exist on three planes
  • Can negate regen
  • Can negate immortality
  • Regeneration
  • Immune to reality wraping, instant wins attacks, mind manipulation, energy manipulation, poison, lies and mainly any attacks that arent physical
  • Has camouflage
  • Have many spells, which i will list later
  • Existence erasure

He is very haxed and that could be a big problem for Ren.

Forms

He has many forms, which will be listed here. The diffrence in powers between those form is very big and i will show why

Base Darsh

This is him basically after entering Hell and returning back. There he met Satan and gained powers(somehow).

He was able to fight par with Konron. This version of him was able to absorb supernova and fight with Konron who should be 7000x ftl. I will explain later why 7000x ftl

No Caption Provided

Majin Darsh

No Caption Provided

This is him after stealing 7/8 pieces of the Judas pain from the demon lords. It was stated that his spells have became millions of times stronger and his physical categories and senses have become ten thousand stronger prior of that when he was in base

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Not only that, but he was stated to be able to destroy a galaxy

No Caption Provided

Yeah impressive, but for what cost? The Judas pain granted him power, but for a exchange he was feeling immense pain on every plane. It's stated that, if mere human tries to obtain the Judas Pain and feel that much pain, he will turn to a pillar of salt

No Caption Provided

Basically he resisted an existence erasure. Btw he got another 1000x power up after the galaxy statement

Dragon Knight Lucifer

No Caption Provided

After darsh being overpowerd by Uriel in Majin form he used the Dragon Knight mecha armor to gain much more power than he could probably wish for. Him and Uriel throwing their strongest attack at each other broke the Dark Abyss and Hell's barriers for a brief moment. It's also stated that Hell is being disintegrated. This feat is impressive, because the energy required to break out of the Black Abyss is the same amount reqired to start up a universe (big bang)

No Caption Provided

However Uriel stated that the Dark Abyss was getting weaker, so that would probably put it's durability at multi-galaxy++ level.

After all that the ten old wise men stated that Uriel size is increased and it increased 17x times, alongside with his power. His power increased 130x times, folded by another 130x times, making it 16 900x in total. Darsh was able to fight on par with him meaning he probably powered too.

Adam of Darkness

No Caption Provided

He has not many feats in that form, but he was shown to be able to blitz Uriel and after Uriel trying to punch him, his arm being disintegrated just by Darsh immense durability. He is said to be closest to God, even if i remember correct Satan feared him. Satan was able to casually open the Dark Abyss (before it being weakend)This should be universe+ feat, because when Abigail said that it needs big bang level to open the Dark Abyss, he was reffering to that being done in only 1/6000 of a nanosecond. Satan casually opens it for much longer timeframe and outruns the blackhole, which is stated to trap time and even light not being able to escape it.

No Caption Provided

I've seen many people saying that Satan feared Darsh, but i never remember seeing this statement. Atleast it can be said that Darsh is equal to Satan who created mini-universe in his base archangel form(angels get stronger when they fall)

Striking/Power

To clarify how strong Darsh is

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9

Here is him cancelling out Uriel's Gugnir. The power that is unleashed is so powerful that it shattered reality and breaked the barriers trough dimensions. Being able to do that has to be atleast multi-galaxy+ feat, because

  • Uriel states that the barrier was weakend
  • It's a shared feat between Uriel and Darsh
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

He can also cancel out attacks or more specifically he creates a black hole, which absorbs the attack and sends it into another dimension

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Beeblezub said that if he tried to disort space or dimension leap, the entire country would have dissapeared as a side effect. The whole attack is called Giran Ira

And here is Loudness All Guns Blazing

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8

The DKL's nine elemental furnaces are opened and fired simultaneously. The attack is powerful enough to break through Uriel's dispel Bound in one hit. Uriel's dispel bound was able to withstand the attack that destroyed the Dark abyss and shaterred reality, basically making it mutli-galaxy++ level. Loudness all guns blazing was able to break it.

Here Dark Schnider with Jaw Breaker Light Wings, he was able to shatter the dimensional barriers alone.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

So we already established that Dark Schneider alone is multi-galaxy++ level or very close to universal! Now people are gonna ask, how is that even remotly close to a guy, who beated a guy who merged 2 universes?

Dark Schneider was going toe to toe with Uriel, who got another power up, 16 900x to be exact. Meaning his DC is 16 900x times more than multi-galaxy++, comfortably putting him in the universal ranges.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Note that he has one more form, which is kinda featless, but should atleast be equal to Satan

Durability

Now things are starting to get intresting. Ren can't kill Dark Schneider, neither he can K.O. him. Well dear readers let me show you why Darsh hax render Ren any attack completely ussles. And of course i am going to start with

Dispel Bound

"The ultimate defense ability" is what basically is dispel bound. It's hundreds of thousands of shields, which are repared at FTL speeds. They as shown negate any hax Ren could offer

No Caption Provided

So, if Ren wants to kill Darsh somehow, he needs to break those shields somehow. They protect him on every plane he exist and there are multiple layers of it. Ren have to break them simultaneously. How durable they are you ask? Well they protected Darsh from Uriel and his strongest attack clash(which destroyed the Dark Abyss and shattered the dimensional barrier).

Eternal atoms

High level beings in Bastard! have eternal atoms. Those are atoms that allow you to exist on three diffrent planes simultaneously(physical, mental and astral). He has soul, spirit and body.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

You should destroy person's atoms on every plane at the same time, if there is even one atom left Darsh will just regenerate

No Caption Provided

Unless Ren can attack on 3 planes, Darsh is unkillable for him.

Speed

It is said that the distance between the Dark Abyss and Earth is 28 000 light years. And the seraphs were able to cross it in 4 years.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

So since it took Base Uriel 4 years to travel 28,000 Lightyears, we simply get the conclusion that Uriel was travelling 7000x FTL. It is a travel feat, but dont worry i will explain that.

Here we see Konron reacting to Uriel's attack, which puts Konron at 7000x ftl

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Welp... here is base Darsh blitzing Konron, who we just established being atleast 7000x ftl

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Base D.S. is already 7000x ftl, well after that he activatd the Judas Pain and as i already said his physical categories multiplied by tens of thousands

No Caption Provided

Here Beeblezub says that his senses and physicals increased by several tens of thousands. Beeblezub himself holds one of the judas pain pieces so he is a reliable source.

That roughly puts Majin Dark Schneider at 7 000 000 ftl and that's me already lowballing him. After that Uriel hate increased 1000x times and DS was matching him meaning his strength and speed has grown too. 7 000 000 000 ftl already, he has one more transformation, his dragon knight lucifer. We dont know exactly how stronger he became, but let me just lowball it and say he didn't get faster. After that we have a 16 900 power up, which means he already enters the quadrillion times ftl. I am also excluding his Adam of Darkness transformation too. So we already have him quadrillion times ftl lowballed.

Spells

Darsh has a tons of hax, but here i will list the ones that are most game changing

and here comes copy and pasting

Bloodstone-Dark Schneider creates a cursed space in which all damage dealt to him will be reflected onto his opponent with the same intensity.

Judas Priest-One of Dark Schneider's greatest spells, Judas Priest strikes his opponent on an atomic level to blast them apart. After his transformation into Majin Dark Schneider, it grew in power to strike his opponent on every level of existence simultaneously, destroying the eternal atoms of their body, soul, and spirit all at once and erasing them from existence.

Crow bar-Using this demon sealing spell, Dark Schneider traps his opponent in a thirteen-layered magical prison that saps their power. If they attempt to escape, it will unmake their soul.

Chanters-Darsh manifests 3 demonic faces on his body. This allows him to cast 4 spells at once, one of these spells including Kall Su's Testament

Illusions-Darsh can manipulate illusions. He normally uses it to make dopplegangers or copies of himself to take his place from an attack. But it has other uses too

he can also stop time, but that doesnt really matter here, bcuz Ren counters it

Counters

  • Durability, Resistance and Invulnerability ignoring/bypassing attacks
  • Immortality and Regeneration Negation (Can affect Abstract Entities as well)
  • Resurrection
  • Healing
  • Regeneration
  • Instakill abilities
  • Attack Reflection
  • Passive Skills (boost, enhance, null, repel)
  • Superhuman Speed (without Personas)
  • Resistance to Resistance Negation, Durability Negation, Time Stop, Existence Erasure, should have Resistance to Reality Warping and Conceptual Manipulation
  • Plus a few others, but I'll go through them later on

Healing and regenerations get's negged by dispel bound as well as instakill abilities, time stop should be no problem, because he himself can stop time.

A few examples of null/drain/repel;

This should be negged by dispel bound too

After awakening Satanael, Ren nullified Yaldabaoth's Rays of Control, which can bypass Resistances, Invulnerability and Durability, just like every Almighty attack (and shields [Makarakarn] as well).

Impressive, but i doubt it can bypass dispel bound.

He can survive "Big Bang Challenge", which is comparable, if not equal, to a literal Big Bang;

Impressive, but Darsh striking and energy projection is above that.

strength:

Ren can casually move Stars around at insane speeds and even capable of moving one to Earth in a near-instant;

Insane, but Base Darsh absorbed a supernova

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Far superior to a Shadow capable of causing a Big Bang;

Impressive, but Darsh in DKL form after 16 900 power up should be on the same level too.

and far superior to God of Control (G.o.C) Yaldabaoth, who, in a much weaker form, casually merged the Metaverse and Reality (basically, merging 2 Universes) together.

Well in my opinion Adam of Darkness should scale to Satan who broke out of the Dark Abyss, before it was weakend, meaning he should be Universal+ as this feat was done kinda casually and to break the abyss for 1/6 of nanosecond you need big bang level energy, Satan did it and broke it in higher time frame.

Speed

Ren is easily capable of dodging Big Bang Challenge, which covers a Universe (Galaxy sized even with lowball) sized distance in a few seconds.

Impressive, but again Darsh should be probably around the same speed as he scales to Satan who outran a Black hole, which traps time itself and light.

He can also use attacks such as Morning Star and Cosmic Flare (Cosmic Flare covers a Galaxy sized distance in a near-instant);

Impressive, but Darsh wouldn't need to run from that, dispel bound protects him.

and for abilities dispel bound counters all of them.

Conclusion

They are around the same speed tier with Ren probably being little bit faster

Dark Schneider can erase Ren atoms on mental and astral planes, which would likely lean to his death

Ren can't kill or K.O., Darsh

DS can use bloodstone to revert any attack thrown at him at Ren with the same damage

DS can use crow bar which would likely seal Ren, unles he want's to destroy his soul

He can cast all of this spells at the same time and can use Giran Ira to send Ren's attacks to other dimension. So what's my awnser when somebody says Ren wins over Dark Schneider:

No Caption Provided

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mevbi

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Guzmania

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Nice post too, so now you both have an answer and then we can vote, right ?

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mevbi

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@guzmania: no, each of us have to post atleast 3 posts

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CaoCao

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Goot post. Good from both sides.

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vibecheckfailed

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Note 1; If there's anything wrong with my counters, feel free to tell me and I'll redo it when I have time.

Counters to Strength

Here is him cancelling out Uriel's Gugnir. The power that is unleashed is so powerful that it shattered reality and breaked the barriers trough dimensions. Being able to do that has to be atleast multi-galaxy+ feat, because

  • Uriel states that the barrier was weakend
  • It's a shared feat between Uriel and Darsh

A Multi-Galaxy level attack isn't going to kill him, plus he could reflect or nullify it.

He can also cancel out attacks or more specifically he creates a black hole, which absorbs the attack and sends it into another dimension

Can he do that before Ren uses Sinful Shell or any of his stronger Almighty abilities, which would most likely K.O DS?

The DKL's nine elemental furnaces are opened and fired simultaneously. The attack is powerful enough to break through Uriel's dispel Bound in one hit. Uriel's dispel bound was able to withstand the attack that destroyed the Dark abyss and shaterred reality, basically making it mutli-galaxy++ level. Loudness all guns blazing was able to break it.

Again, it wouldn't kill him and he could reflect or nullify it.

Dark Schneider was going toe to toe with Uriel, who got another power up, 16 900x to be exact. Meaning his DC is 16 900x times more than multi-galaxy++, comfortably putting him in the universal ranges.

Considering Ren can survive a Big Bang in the 5th palace, and he's way stronger than his previous versions due to Composite Compendium, this shouldn't be a problem. He could also nullify or reflect most of his spells (or at least most of the ones you listed)

Counters to Durability

"The ultimate defense ability" is what basically is dispel bound. It's hundreds of thousands of shields, which are repared at FTL speeds. They as shown negate any hax Ren could offer

Almighty attacks can bypass shields, so he can most likely K.O DS. He definitely can't kill him though.

So, if Ren wants to kill Darsh somehow, he needs to break those shields somehow. They protect him on every plane he exist and there are multiple layers of it. Ren have to break them simultaneously. How durable they are you ask? Well they protected Darsh from Uriel and his strongest attack clash(which destroyed the Dark Abyss and shattered the dimensional barrier).

Again, he can most likely bypass Dispel Bound with Almighty attacks and K.O him.

High level beings in Bastard! have eternal atoms. Those are atoms that allow you to exist on three diffrent planes simultaneously(physical, mental and astral). He has soul, spirit and body.

Yeah, Ren cannot kill him, but he can K.O DS.

Counters to Speed

That roughly puts Majin Dark Schneider at 7 000 000 ftl and that's me already lowballing him.

Morning Star (MS) is way faster than that, and Ren can easily tag and react to Shadows capable of dodging MS without his Personas.

After that Uriel hate increased 1000x times and DS was matching him meaning his strength and speed has grown too. 7 000 000 000 ftl already

Considering that Ren can casually dodge a Big Bang, this won't be a problem.

After that we have a 16 900 power up, which means he already enters the quadrillion times ftl. I am also excluding his Adam of Darkness transformation too. So we already have him quadrillion times ftl lowballed.

Again, Ren can casually dodge a Big Bang in the 5th palace, and Composite Compendium Ren is way superior to any of his previous version in every single way. Also, 7.000.000.000x16.900 is not even remotely close to the quadrillions, its in the trillions. On the other hand, Ren could casually dodge a big bang, which makes him way faster than DS.

Counters to Spells

Bloodstone-Dark Schneider creates a cursed space in which all damage dealt to him will be reflected onto his opponent with the same intensity.

Ren can simply resurrect.

Judas Priest-One of Dark Schneider's greatest spells, Judas Priest strikes his opponent on an atomic level to blast them apart. After his transformation into Majin Dark Schneider, it grew in power to strike his opponent on every level of existence simultaneously, destroying the eternal atoms of their body, soul, and spirit all at once and erasing them from existence.

The "Atomic Level Blast" would probably get reflected, nullified or drained (assuming its some kind of Energy attack or one of the attack types I've listed before), and even if it somehow hits Ren, he has resistance to Existence Erasure.

Loading Video...

Crow bar-Using this demon sealing spell, Dark Schneider traps his opponent in a thirteen-layered magical prison that saps their power. If they attempt to escape, it will unmake their soul.

Does it have to hit Ren? If so, Ren is faster than DS, so he could dodge it. So unless it doesn't have to hit Ren in order to seal him, this won't work.

Chanters-Darsh manifests 3 demonic faces on his body. This allows him to cast 4 spells at once, one of these spells including Kall Su's Testament

From what I know about Testament (from a fast google search), Ren would nullify, reflect or drain it.

Illusions-Darsh can manipulate illusions. He normally uses it to make dopplegangers or copies of himself to take his place from an attack. But it has other uses too

Forgot to mention this in my opener, but Ren shouldn't have problem with illusions because of "Unshaken Will" (Passive)

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he can also stop time, but that doesnt really matter here, bcuz Ren counters it

Yup, Ren is unaffected by Time Stop.

Counters to Counters

Healing and regenerations get's negged by dispel bound as well as instakill abilities, time stop should be no problem, because he himself can stop time.

Not a counter, but a correction. Ren cannot stop time, he's just immune to it.

After awakening Satanael, Ren nullified Yaldabaoth's Rays of Control, which can bypass Resistances, Invulnerability and Durability, just like every Almighty attack (and shields [Makarakarn] as well).

Impressive, but i doubt it can bypass dispel bound.

Correction again, Ren cannot use Rays of Control. He's just immune to it and Almighty attacks can bypass shields, so it should be able to bypass Dispel Bound.

He can survive "Big Bang Challenge", which is comparable, if not equal, to a literal Big Bang;

Impressive, but Darsh striking and energy projection is above that.

Ren can simply nullify his energy attacks, just as he nullified Yaldabaoth's Rays of Control.

Far superior to a Shadow capable of causing a Big Bang;

Impressive, but Darsh in DKL form after 16 900 power up should be on the same level too.

Ren is far superior to that Shadow since the 5th Palace (There are 8 palaces in total, 9 if we count Takuto's palace from Royal) and can beat it with mid-tier Personas. That Shadow is a joke compared to any of the Near End-Game Phantom Thieves, let alone Near End-Game Ren, who could beat all of them simultaneously without any difficulty at all. Composite Compendium Ren is ridiculously above End-Game Ren with Satanael. End-Game Ren with Satanael is massively above Near End-Game Ren.

and far superior to God of Control (G.o.C) Yaldabaoth, who, in a much weaker form, casually merged the Metaverse and Reality (basically, merging 2 Universes) together.

Well in my opinion Adam of Darkness should scale to Satan who broke out of the Dark Abyss, before it was weakend, meaning he should be Universal+ as this feat was done kinda casually and to break the abyss for 1/6 of nanosecond you need big bang level energy, Satan did it and broke it in higher time frame.

Yaldabaoth in his Holy Grail form casually merged the Metaverse and Reality (aka 2 Universes, as I said before) together. Holy Grail Yaldabaoth is no more than a fodder to God of Control Yaldabaoth, and he was fodder to Ren with Satanael. Composite Compendium Ren is ridiculously above Satanael Ren, so you get my point I hope?

and for abilities dispel bound counters all of them.

I thought Dispel Bound can be broken with enough force? Considering that Almighty attacks can bypass shields as well I'm pretty sure he can do it. He should be able to do it with force alone as well, although I'm not sure.

Counters to Conclusion(?)

Dark Schneider can erase Ren atoms on mental and astral planes, which would likely lean to his death

Ren can resurrect himself and he should be able to do it more than once due to Composite Compendium.

Ren can't kill or K.O., Darsh

Ren should be able to bypass Dispel Bound with Almighty attacks because they can simply bypass shields. He has no real way of killing DS though, but he can K.O him.

Going by your own words, (""The ultimate defense ability" is what basically is dispel bound. It's hundreds of thousands of shields")

DS can use bloodstone to revert any attack thrown at him at Ren with the same damage

Does DS have to activate it manually to work? If so, I'm pretty sure again that Ren could K.O him before that happens. And even if he manages to activate it, Ren can still resurrect.

DS can use crow bar which would likely seal Ren, unles he want's to destroy his soul

Does it have to hit Ren in order to work? If so, as I said before, he'll most likely dodge it. Even if he's caught in the seal, he could still resurrect after trying to escape.

He can cast all of this spells at the same time and can use Giran Ira to send Ren's attacks to other dimension. So what's my awnser when somebody says Ren wins over Dark Schneider:

Most of his spells that you listed would get reflected at DS or simply nullified. Even if he's caught in one of the spells he'll either resurrect or heal himself.

Conclusion

Ren should be able to bypass Dispel Bound with Almighty attacks.

Sinful Shell would most likely K.O Dark Schneider.

Ren can react to him and attack him before he can do something (assuming he has to activate most of his abilities and they are not passive).

Ren should be able to resurrect multiple times due to Composite Compendium, so even if DS kills him, he'll come back.

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Yeah I needed that clarification for Sinful Shell.

Nice post !

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mevbi

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#35  Edited By mevbi

Rebuttal of the ultimate sex symbol

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Now, now after reading trough out my post, I realized something. I lowballed Darsh too much. He even before the 16 900x power up should be universal.

His clashes with Uriel were able to destroy Hell's barriers and destroy the Dark Abyss for a brief moment. Let me clarify something:

  • They destroyed the Dark Abyss, which is 28 000 light-years away from their fight. It's stated that the Dark Abyss has the mass of fifty million suns and its powers are billions of times that of a supernova.(basically a galaxy)
No Caption Provided
  • Alongside that, they destroyed Hell's barriers and shattered reality. Their durability(hell's barriers) was stated that being able to withstand big bang level of energy. That's only in a timeframe of 1/6 nanosecond. They did it in a much longer timeframe
  • It was all a side effect of their fight.
  • Dark Schneider was able to do that alone afterward.
  • All of that was before the 16 900x powerups and Adam of Darkness.

This should give you an idea that Darsh, have no problem overpowering and stomping universal+ characters. Even in his Majin form, he was a multi-galaxy threat. I doubt he only grew a little bit above that, considering how big is the multiplier between each power-up. Now let's get to the counters

Counters to strength:

A Multi-Galaxy level attack isn't going to kill him, plus he could reflect or nullify it.

As I retconned my info for Darsh, he should operate much above multi-galaxy level. Nullify would be a problem, but could he counter Judas Priest? It destroys the enemy on atomic level. It strikes him on astral and mental planes too. So my question is could Ren defend himself of astral and mental plane?

Again, it wouldn't kill him and he could reflect or nullify it.

He can't nullify it tho. It was able to bypass Uriel dispel bound, even tho it is shown that dispel bound nullifies energy. Even if we agree he can nullify it, Darsh could just use blunt force. As seen he was able to throw infinite punches and counters (hyperbole, but it should still be around quadrillion times) that being able to disintegrate Uriel who we established many, many times above universal characters. About reflection, dispel bound is stated to be able to nullify counters.

After reading all the abilities listed in the picture I saw "anti-magic" meaning that Dispel bound negates nullification too.

No Caption Provided

Considering Ren can survive a Big Bang in the 5th palace, and he's way stronger than his previous versions due to Composite Compendium, this shouldn't be a problem. He could also nullify or reflect most of his spells (or at least most of the ones you listed)

Darsh is way stronger than a big bang too so that wouldn't be a problem. About nullifying and reflect, that is already countered above.

Counters to Durability

Almighty attacks can bypass shields, so he can most likely K.O DS. He definitely can't kill him though.

Dispel bound is not just shields. It nullifies most of the hax you can think of. Almighty should be under the section of Magic or Energy. Dispel bound disables energy attack and magic existence.

Again, he can most likely bypass Dispel Bound with Almighty attacks and K.O him.

Proved above, why this isn't true.

Yeah, Ren cannot kill him, but he can K.O DS.

He can't K.O. First, he has to touch him.

Counters to speed

Morning Star (MS) is way faster than that, and Ren can easily tag and react to Shadows capable of dodging MS without his Personas.

Base Seraphs crossed half a galaxy in 4 years. The gap between base seraphs and Dark Schneider is immense

Considering that Ren can casually dodge a Big Bang, this won't be a problem.

And what's the speed of a Big bang? It's not even 100% sure by scientists that it was faster than light.

Again, Ren can casually dodge a Big Bang in the 5th palace, and Composite Compendium Ren is way superior to any of his previous version in every single way. Also, 7.000.000.000x16.900 is not even remotely close to the quadrillions, its in the trillions. On the other hand, Ren could casually dodge a big bang, which makes him way faster than DS.

You should consider the fact that I lowballed the shit out of DS.

Counters to Spells

Ren can simply resurrect.

No, he can't. Dispel bound is also stated as being able to negate immortality.

The "Atomic Level Blast" would probably get reflected, nullified or drained (assuming its some kind of Energy attack or one of the attack types I've listed before), and even if it somehow hits Ren, he has resistance to Existence Erasure.

Everything you've listed has been countered. He resisted existence erasure, but could he resist it on planes he does not exist?

Does it have to hit Ren? If so, Ren is faster than DS, so he could dodge it. So unless it doesn't have to hit Ren in order to seal him, this won't work.

Yes, it does have to hit Ren but is Ren really faster than DS? The shockwaves of his attacks with Uriel were able to reach the Dark Abyss for a fraction of the second and the Dark Abyss was 28 000 light-years away from them. All of that, before the 16 900x power up and he got significantly faster in Adam of Darkness.

From what I know about Testament (from a fast google search), Ren would nullify, reflect or drain it.

Wrong as I already proved

Forgot to mention this in my opener, but Ren shouldn't have problem with illusions because of "Unshaken Will" (Passive)

Yeah I was expecting that

Counters to Counters

Correction again, Ren cannot use Rays of Control. He's just immune to it and Almighty attacks can bypass shields, so it should be able to bypass Dispel Bound.

It doesn't tho. As I've already proved Dispel bound are not just mere shields

Ren can simply nullify his energy attacks, just as he nullified Yaldabaoth's Rays of Control.

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Ren is far superior to that Shadow since the 5th Palace (There are 8 palaces in total, 9 if we count Takuto's palace from Royal) and can beat it with mid-tier Personas. That Shadow is a joke compared to any of the Near End-Game Phantom Thieves, let alone Near End-Game Ren, who could beat all of them simultaneously without any difficulty at all. Composite Compendium Ren is ridiculously above End-Game Ren with Satanael. End-Game Ren with Satanael is massively above Near End-Game Ren.

As I already rebutted my point Schneider should be far above universal. AoD is massively above him

Yaldabaoth in his Holy Grail form casually merged the Metaverse and Reality (aka 2 Universes, as I said before) together. Holy Grail Yaldabaoth is no more than a fodder to God of Control Yaldabaoth, and he was fodder to Ren with Satanael. Composite Compendium Ren is ridiculously above Satanael Ren, so you get my point I hope?

Well, well impressive, but Satan and DS are stated to be the closest to God in power. God, however, should be multiversal,

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Ren does not possess enough strength to break dispel bound.

Conclusion:

Ren can't harm DS

Ds can revert any damage meant to him to Ren

He can negate his regen and eventually kill him

Fun fact

DS possess sharingan

No Caption Provided

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We can start to vote now or is there more counters to come ?

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vibecheckfailed

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@guzmania: Mevbi told me each of us has to post 3 times in total, so there'll be one more from me, and one more from him.

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Okay !

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Note 1; If I messed up something then please, tell me and I'll fix or redo it.

Final Counters

Counters to Counters (Strength)

As I retconned my info for Darsh, he should operate much above multi-galaxy level. Nullify would be a problem, but could he counter Judas Priest? It destroys the enemy on atomic level. It strikes him on astral and mental planes too. So my question is could Ren defend himself of astral and mental plane?

As I said before, Ren can resurrect, but to answer your question, he shouldn't be able to defend himself without his resurrection.

He can't nullify it tho. It was able to bypass Uriel dispel bound, even tho it is shown that dispel bound nullifies energy. Even if we agree he can nullify it, Darsh could just use blunt force. As seen he was able to throw infinite punches and counters (hyperbole, but it should still be around quadrillion times) that being able to disintegrate Uriel who we established many, many times above universal characters. About reflection, dispel bound is stated to be able to nullify counters.

Ren has already nullified durability - resistance and invulnerability ignoring attacks, not sure why he wouldn't be able to nullify it. Blunt force would get nullified. Even if we say that he (for some reason) can't nullify it, he could just drain it.

After reading all the abilities listed in the picture I saw "anti-magic" meaning that Dispel bound negates nullification too.

I thought Anti-Magic means that he wouldn't be affected by magical attacks.

Darsh is way stronger than a big bang too so that wouldn't be a problem. About nullifying and reflect, that is already countered above.

I'm not so sure about your "nullifying counter", so if you could explain it better I would appreciate it. The resurrection still plays a big part in this fight, so even if he somehow kills Ren, he'll just keep coming back.

Counters to Counters (Durability)

Dispel bound is not just shields. It nullifies most of the hax you can think of. Almighty should be under the section of Magic or Energy. Dispel bound disables energy attack and magic existence.

Which basically means he's invulnerable to Magical and Energy attacks, right? Good thing that every Almighty attack ignores resistances, durability and invulnerability. By "disables energy attack and magic existence", you mean that he can disable Ren's magical & energy abilities? Or magical and energy attacks / abilities would automatically cancel as soon as it comes in contact with his body?

Proved above, why this isn't true.

Again, that would mean he's invulnerable to Magical and Energy attacks. Every Almighty attack can bypass invulnerability, resistances and durability. Oh, and please, answer my question above.

He can't K.O. First, he has to touch him.

Again, Ren should be able to K.O him with Almighty attacks.

Counters to Counters (Speed)

And what's the speed of a Big bang? It's not even 100% sure by scientists that it was faster than light.

We can scale it to Tatsuya's Universe creation which is in the quadrillions. Even if you disagree with the calc, it still covers a Universe sized distance in a few (2~) seconds and Ren can casually dodge it in the 5th palace. Near End-Game and End-Game versions are way faster than that, and Composite Compendium is way above any of his other versions in everything.

You should consider the fact that I lowballed the shit out of DS.

It doesn't change the fact that he isn't in the quadrillions.

Counters to Counters (Spells)

No, he can't. Dispel bound is also stated as being able to negate immortality.

And? Negating Immortality =/= Negating Resurrection. Ren isn't immortal, he can resurrect due to his abilities.

Everything you've listed has been countered. He resisted existence erasure, but could he resist it on planes he does not exist?

I'm confused here, so please no bully :(. How would DS erase Ren on "planes he does not exist"? Anyways, he can still come back due to resurrection.

Yes, it does have to hit Ren but is Ren really faster than DS? The shockwaves of his attacks with Uriel were able to reach the Dark Abyss for a fraction of the second and the Dark Abyss was 28 000 light-years away from them. All of that, before the 16 900x power up and he got significantly faster in Adam of Darkness.

Yes, Ren is faster than DS. Casually dodging a Big Bang is already (at least) in the quadrillions, while the speed you provided puts DS in the trillions.

Wrong as I already proved

What's stopping Ren from draining it?

Counters to Counters

It doesn't tho. As I've already proved Dispel bound are not just mere shields

Being invulnerable (to a lot more abilities, but energy and magical attacks are the priority here) to energy and magical attacks isn't going to help here. Every single Almighty attack can bypass resistances, durability and invulnerability.

*insert "WRONG" picture here*

Ren has already nullified durability - resistance and invulnerability ignoring attacks, so again, I'm not sure why he wouldn't be able to do it. Even if he can't nullify his energy attacks, he would either resurrect or dodge them.

As I already rebutted my point Schneider should be far above universal. AoD is massively above him

G.o.C Yaldabaoth is ridiculously superior to his previous (Holy Grail) form, which is already Universal to Multi-Universal. G.o.C Yaldabaoth is a fodder compared to Ren with Satanael alone. Composite Compendium Ren is, again, ridiculously stronger than any of his previous versions.

Well, well impressive, but Satan and DS are stated to be the closest to God in power. God, however, should be multiversal,

Okay? Even if he's multiversal for some reason, Ren can still resurrect and has Almighty attacks that can bypass Invulnerability, Resistances and Durability. Sinful Shell or Myriad Truths would most likely K.O Dark Schneider.

Ren does not possess enough strength to break dispel bound.

He doesn't need to break Dispel Bound due to Almighty attacks. I think he can break it with force alone because of the meme Samurai, but I'm not sure.

Counters to Conclusion

Ren can't harm DS

With Almighty attacks he can.

Ds can revert any damage meant to him to Ren

Ren can K.O him before that happens, and he can still resurrect.

He can negate his regen and eventually kill him

Still not sure what would stop Ren from resurrecting.

Conclusion

From what you told me, DS is invulnerable to a lot of things, including magical and energy attacks. However, any Almighty attacks can bypass invulnerability, durability and resistances, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Sinful Shell or Myriad Truths would K.O DS.

Ren is faster than Dark Schenider. Ren can be put in the quadrillions (× FTL) while DS is in the trillions. He should be able to blitz DS as well (I mean, at least 293 quadrillion × FTL vs 118 trillion × FTL).

Most of DS's spells and attacks would get either dodged or drained. Even if one of them hits him he'll resurrect.

Fun Fact

Ren doesn't have the Sharingan.

No Caption Provided

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johnsmjs36

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This is getting interesting.

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T4V.

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mevbi

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General counters

As I said before, Ren can resurrect, but to answer your question, he shouldn't be able to defend himself without his resurrection.

Dispel bound negates immortality on atomic level and I find it hard to believe that Ren would still be able to resurrect. Even Konron, the guy who exists on three planes was helpless against it.

Ren has already nullified durability - resistance and invulnerability ignoring attacks, not sure why he wouldn't be able to nullify it. Blunt force would get nullified. Even if we say that he (for some reason) can't nullify it, he could just drain it.

Dispel bound should negate nullification, as dispel bound already bypassed nullification(Konron's void howling).

I thought Anti-Magic means that he wouldn't be affected by magical attacks.

No, anti-magic is meant for attacks that negate your attacks. Magic existence is for magical attacks :)

I'm not so sure about your "nullifying counter", so if you could explain it better I would appreciate it. The resurrection still plays a big part in this fight, so even if he somehow kills Ren, he'll just keep coming back.

Dark Schneider is shown being able to bypass Konron's Void Howling, which negates powers and nullifys them. He should have no problem with Ren's nullifying and no he will not keep coming back, because he will be erased on every plane and hasn't shown any defense to it

Which basically means he's invulnerable to Magical and Energy attacks, right? Good thing that every Almighty attack ignores resistances, durability and invulnerability. By "disables energy attack and magic existence", you mean that he can disable Ren's magical & energy abilities? Or magical and energy attacks / abilities would automatically cancel as soon as it comes in contact with his body?

Yes and dispel bound attacks bans attacks that ignore resistance, durability, etc...We are playing the "which one is more NLF game" right now. Yes, it should ban Ren magical and energy abilities, the only reason Uriel abilities weren't cancelled out was, because he is possessing dispel bound too.

Again, that would mean he's invulnerable to Magical and Energy attacks. Every Almighty attack can bypass invulnerability, resistances and durability. Oh, and please, answer my question above.

Dispel bound bans Almighty (expect Yhwach's almighty, it solos fiction). Dispel bound being able to ban reality-warping should give you the idea that Almighty attacks wouldn't work

Again, Ren should be able to K.O him with Almighty attacks.

*insert "wrong" picture here*, but on a serious note, Dark Schneider is shown being able to be knocked out only, if he is on the brink of death

We can scale it to Tatsuya's Universe creation which is in the quadrillions. Even if you disagree with the calc, it still covers a Universe sized distance in a few (2~) seconds and Ren can casually dodge it in the 5th palace. Near End-Game and End-Game versions are way faster than that, and Composite Compendium is way above any of his other versions in everything.

Uriel and Darsh's collision made shockwaves that traveled so fast that they were able to cross galf a galaxy in a fraction of a second and alongside with that, they reached Hell's barriers and destroyed them. Oh and did i mention that Hell is universe sized?

No Caption Provided

So what we established so far?

  • Darsh in weaker form could create a shockwave that crossed 28 000 years and universe sized quadrants in a fraction of second
  • He got much faster afterward

That would easily put his speed above that of Ren's.

It doesn't change the fact that he isn't in the quadrillions.

It does. If I used 100 000x power up not 10 000x (it's stated that he got tens of thousands stronger, faster, etc) And at least gave him 10 000x power-up, when he entered DKL form that would lean to him being easly in the quadrillions times ftl, if not faster

And? Negating Immortality =/= Negating Resurrection. Ren isn't immortal, he can resurrect due to his abilities.

Can he resurrect after his atoms being disintegrated on every plane? No, that's what I meant with negating immortality.

I'm confused here, so please no bully :(. How would DS erase Ren on "planes he does not exist"? Anyways, he can still come back due to resurrection.

I meant he can't defend himself on those planes and I'm not gonna bully you, but Darsh will bully Ren.

Yes, Ren is faster than DS. Casually dodging a Big Bang is already (at least) in the quadrillions, while the speed you provided puts DS in the trillions.

And? The shockwave created by DS and Uriel could travel whole universe in a fraction of a second.

What's stopping Ren from draining it?

Dispel bound :0

Being invulnerable (to a lot more abilities, but energy and magical attacks are the priority here) to energy and magical attacks isn't going to help here. Every single Almighty attack can bypass resistances, durability and invulnerability.

Again, we are playing the NLF game. The same thing you said, could be applied to Dispel bound

Ren has already nullified durability - resistance and invulnerability ignoring attacks, so again, I'm not sure why he wouldn't be able to do it. Even if he can't nullify his energy attacks, he would either resurrect or dodge them.

So did Darsh

G.o.C Yaldabaoth is ridiculously superior to his previous (Holy Grail) form, which is already Universal to Multi-Universal. G.o.C Yaldabaoth is a fodder compared to Ren with Satanael alone. Composite Compendium Ren is, again, ridiculously stronger than any of his previous versions.

D.K.L Dark Schneider(after his power up) is ridiculously superior to his previous(before the power up) form , which is already Universal to Multi-Universal. 16 900x Dark Schneider is a fodder Uriel with his size increased 17x times. Adam of Darkness is, again, ridiculously stronger than any for of Uriel or his previous versions.

See what I did there

Okay? Even if he's multiversal for some reason, Ren can still resurrect and has Almighty attacks that can bypass Invulnerability, Resistances and Durability. Sinful Shell or Myriad Truths would most likely K.O Dark Schneider.

He cant resurrect, Almighty is NLF just like dispel bound and Sinful shell or Myriad Truths wouldn't be a problem for Darsh either.

He doesn't need to break Dispel Bound due to Almighty attacks. I think he can break it with force alone because of the meme Samurai, but I'm not sure.

He doesn't need to break Almighty attacks due to Dispel Bound. I don't understand the next sentence

With Almighty attacks he can damage Darsh.

Again, it's not sure whether it would effect Darsh or not, because o Dispel Bound

Ren can K.O him before that happens, and he can still resurrect.(Bloodstone)

Nope, he can't, bloodstone creates a cursed space around him, which reflects anything meant to harm him to it's owner, not only that, but Dispel Bound counters any attack or hax, as well as eternal atoms which allow him to regenerate without him being Knocked out.

Still not sure what would stop Ren from resurrecting.

It should, as he has no defense to atomic destruction on planes he can't defend himself.

Conclusion

Dark Schneider is faster than Ren and that would lead to him being able to seal him with Crow Bar

Even, if hypothetically agree that Ren is faster than DS somehow, he can deflect any of his attack with Bloodstone and destroy his atoms on every plane of existence.

Dispel bound should negate every Almighty attack, as well as banning his resurrection. And with that ladies and gentlemen we can say that This CaV is open for votes

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#47  Edited By Guzmania

My vote goes for DS because of Sharingan.

No but seriously I’ll have to read through all that again, this seems to be pretty close.

EDIT : Now that I went through all that again, my vote goes to vibecheckfailed/Ren, maybe it’s because I’m more familiar with the verse but I felt that video proofs were helping too.

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My vote goes to Mister vibe, simply because of the proof and hard to counter statements and proof he gave.

Both sides did incredibly good and deserve a metal for this awesome cav,but overall, Vibe takes my vote.

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mevbi

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:(

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johnsmjs36

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My vote goes yo Mevbi. While both have given pretty good arguments, the argument for bypassing Dispel Bound falls short especially cosidering it seems it was able to nullify an ability whose job was nullifying dispel bound. Though Ren seems to be faster my vote still goes to DS