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#1 Edited by Subline (7733 posts) - - Show Bio
Slade Wilson / Deathstroke
Slade Wilson / Deathstroke "The Terminator"

VS

Bobbi Morse / Mockingbird
Bobbi Morse / Mockingbird

Rules:

  • No Mirakuru.
  • No Prep, In Character.
  • Bobbi gets the suit from the image and 2 Batons.
  • Slade gets the Island Suit and 1 Sword.
  • Weapons are for Melee Use only, no Shock or special features.
  • Tie In Comic feats and TV Show feats are allowed.
  • Win by Death / KO / Incap.

Location:

Abandoned Warehouse
Abandoned Warehouse

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#2 Posted by Kevd4wg (12701 posts) - - Show Bio

Ooh T4V. Hopefully this doesn't become a debate about how impressive AoS is

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#3 Posted by TonyMartial (9238 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice

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#4 Posted by JSDoctor (1628 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after each post. Looks great.

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#5 Posted by KingOfWakanda (2380 posts) - - Show Bio

Aw snap. TV4

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#6 Posted by blackpantherisb (7110 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after every post.

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#7 Edited by The_Kidd (11957 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor said:

Tag after each post. Looks great.

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#8 Edited by deactivated-5c15205dbdcac (503 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after each post

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#9 Posted by AngelJax (11646 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#10 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4756 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after each post.

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#11 Posted by CelestialKnight (1474 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#12 Posted by Amcu (16616 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after each post.

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#13 Posted by Subline (7733 posts) - - Show Bio

The CaV won't be opening any time soon as we both are quite busy at the moment.

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#14 Posted by Subline (7733 posts) - - Show Bio

Deathstroke the Terminator:

No Caption Provided

Strength / Striking Power:

The strength section will be important as Slade regularly incorporates Hand-to-Hand Combat into his fighting even while he is using a sword (refer to skill section for an example of Slade using H2H). So these feats will prove how he could put Bobbi down with punches or kicks.

Here Slade sends a man flying with a single kick.

Slade one shots Oliver Queen / The Green Arrow.

Oliver Queen has remained conscious after being hit by Supergirl.

No Caption Provided

Durability:

Slade Wilson has some great durability feats which will mean Bobbi will have a tough time putting Slade down.

Here, Slade gets slammed into a tree, kneed in the face by Speedy and punched in the face by the Green Arrow, and is un-affected by all of it.

Here, Slade gets kicked by Billy Wintergreen twice but gets up instantly without any harm done.

Deathstroke takes around a dozen hits from Oliver Queen and is fine and able to keep fighting.

Deathstroke and Billy are conscious and fine after having a missile blasted into his plane and crash landing on Lian Yu

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

I am aware Bobbi has a good feat of pain tolerance, being tortured by Ward / Agent 33 for a few hours or so. Deathstroke has a much more impressive feat, when he landed on Lian Yu, Billy and Slade were tortured for 324 days, Billy decided to give up by then and tell Fyers what he wanted to know, but Slade did not say anything.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Deathstroke gets a bullet dug out of his arm with a knife, he is fine after this and the pain does not effect him after it's dug out.

Reaction Speed:

Slade and Bobbi are around the same level here, meaning that skill will play an even bigger factor considering their reactions are fairly even, and thankfully Slade is more skilled out of the 2, which will be addressed in the Skill Section. Anyway, lets talk about Slade's reaction feats.

Here, Slade appears to bullet time, as he hits 2 bullets out of the way, one with his sword, and another with his gun.

No Caption Provided

Here, we can see it in Slo-Mo, and he clearly hits both bullets.

No Caption Provided

Here, in another showing, he hits a bullet with his sword again.

No Caption Provided

Now, he has hit 3 bullets with his sword / gun. All after they were fired, it seems way too coincidental for them to all just be lucky.

H2H Skill / Swordsmanship:

Fodder Feats:

When it comes to fodder feats, Deathstroke has a lot, he has taken on soldiers and even ninjas who have been trained by Talia al Ghul, the oldest daughter of Ra's al Ghul. Talia's ninjas most likely have the same training as League of Assassins Ninjas, who could take out the future director of Argus, Lyla Michaels, who could take out "Ghosts" without too much issue.

No Caption Provided

Here, Deathstroke cuts up 4 ninjas in a few seconds, although he did attack them from behind, the last 2 had time to react especially the last ninja, and even after they turned around they were disposed of easily.

No Caption Provided

Here, Deathstroke stomps 3 ninjas in a few seconds, note how he also uses a punch in the fight as well as his sword which was why I posted Striking feats and is why I will also post h2h feats.

No Caption Provided

Here without any use of his sword, he beats around 5 ninjas in seconds with ease.

No Caption Provided

Here, Deathstroke kills 5 Soldiers / Mercenaries before they can do anything, although they were unaware, this is still a great showing of combat speed on Slade's part.

No Caption Provided

Against Established Opponents:

When it comes to fights against established opponents, Slade has many fights, Bobbi does have quite a few too, which will be addressed in counters.

In this video, Slade beats Billy Wintergreen in around 40 seconds, Billy Wintergreen lands 4 hits on Slade which have little to no effect, and Slade lands 8 hits on Billy Wintergreen, so Slade is considerably more skilled than Billy Wintergreen.

For comparison, Billy Wintergreen has:

Here Deathstroke defeats Joe Wilson (his son) while holding back.

For comparison, Joe Wilson has:

Here, Deathstroke easily beats Oliver Queen (Green Arrow) while unarmed, this is after months of being in prison without any combat practice.

Oliver Queen has:

Here, Deathstroke fights Green Arrow and has the upper hand on numerous occasions, right after being hit with the Mirakuru Antidote, note that the antidote was knocking out all other Mirakuru Soldiers too so it is very likely that Slade wasn't at 100% during the fight.

For comparison, Oliver Queen at this point could:

Here, Deathstroke easily defeats Captain Boomerang.

For comparison, Captain Boomerang:

Deathstroke defeats Thea Queen in a few seconds.

Thea Queen has:

Summary:

Deathstroke is clearly the more skilled combatant of the 2, having fought much more skilled opponents than Bobbi has such as Oliver Queen or Captain Boomerang for example. He's also fought formidable fodder like Talia's Ninjas, and disposed of lots of them in seconds. He's clearly the more skilled combatant, plus he has a reach advantage due to having a sword.

Conclusion:

Deathstroke is clearly the more skilled fighter out of the 2, and he also implements hand to hand combat in his sword fights, due to his great striking power, he will be able to put Bobbi down after a few hits, and he will also be armed with a sword - a one shot weapon. He will be able to land hits on her due to his on par reaction speed, greater combat speed and greater skill. Each hit, especially from a sword - will be deadly. Whereas Bobbi, will be armed with 2 Batons, Deathstroke has shown some great durability feats that will mean putting him down will be difficult.

Deathstroke due to greater skill / speed will land more hits and due to having great striking feats / a one shot weapon (sword), Bobbi will go down before she can put Slade down, which will be difficult anyway due to his great durability. Slade also has greater reach with his weapon which will make it even more difficult for Bobbi to land hits.

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#16 Posted by Daywalker88 (114 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#17 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4756 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice opener.

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#20 Posted by The_Magister (13872 posts) - - Show Bio

@subline:I saw, nice post

Will get to this eventually

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#21 Posted by Subline (7733 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by The_Magister (13872 posts) - - Show Bio

@subline: I got my strength/striking section done, halfway done with skill as well. Working on the rest slowly but surely.

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#24 Edited by The_Magister (13872 posts) - - Show Bio

@subline:

Instead of having a separate section for rebuttals, I'll sprinkle my rebuttals throughout my post in sections such as Skill, Speed, etc.

Bobbi Morse aka Mockingbird

No Caption Provided

Bobbi Morse is one of SHIELD's best agents, a combat and espionage operative with superlative skills in a variety of areas. She was one of the strongest specialists to come out of the SHIELD Academy of Operations, and her talents have proven invaluable in a multitude of missions.

Strength & Striking

Slade's strength counters

Slade's feat against Oliver, while good, isn't really as great as you're making it out to be. Certainly not enough to give him a clean advantage of any sort against Bobbi.

Oliver remaining conscious after being ragdolled by Supergirl (or is it Overgirl?) is pretty wildly inconsistent with his general showings. I don't think I need to go over CW kryptonians' feats to establish this, I believe most people here have a general idea of what they can do. Oliver's been consistently hurt or put down by much less; like hits from Mirakuru soldiers, small-scale explosives, and hits from peak humans or even fodder. If you want to contest this point, we can go over it in detail to elaborate on why Oliver remaining conscious after a hit from a kryptonian is a massive outlier.

And I'm inclined to believe that Slade oneshotted him like that because it was an ambush. We've seen them fight in head-on scenarios, and Slade's never been that quick to put Oliver down without a surprise attack. In the same episode as the one you're referencing, Slade fought Thea and Oliver.(Video) He didn't exactly oneshot either this time, since he didn't get to ambush them.

Same goes for his fight against Oliver in 2x23, as seen here. He didn't have the element of surprise, so he wasn't able to oneshot Oliver or even come close to it.

You also provided a feat of Slade kicking a guy and ragdolling him, which is impressive. However - Bobbi's strength is very good, and she has better feats than the ones you provided for Slade.

Bobbi's strength

These are feats of Bobbi's:

  1. Here, she slams an end of a long table so hard that the other side flips up and KO's her opponent
  2. Here, she hurls her batons hard enough to instantly KO two soldiers
  3. Here, she flips a HYDRA agent with her baton

She also sent Grant Ward flying through a glass window with a two-footed kick:

I can provide feats for Ward's durability & damage soak in my next post, if you'd like
I can provide feats for Ward's durability & damage soak in my next post, if you'd like

Another impressive feat from her is this. She sends Vin-Tak, a Kree warrior capable of holding his own against Lady Sif (both physically and skill-wise), flying backwards into a wall with a kick.

Bobbi's feats seem to eclipse those of Slade that you provided. I don't really think there's a competition, especially given that you used an outlier which can be easily written off as inconsistent. Bobbi has the striking to surpass Slade's, and she packs enough power in her strikes to put him down for the count.

Durability & Pain Tolerance

Bobbi has a few neat feats here. Slade's sword poses problems, but she has the damage soak to keep fighting until or unless she gets punctured in a vital spot.

She's punched in the face and thrown a considerable distance by a Kree warrior that matched Lady Sif. Bobbi's hurt from the Kree's attacks, but has no lasting injuries afterwards.

Here, she tanks a kick from Giyera.

As a reminder, Giyera's kicks on May were much more impactful:

No Caption Provided

The first kick is a side kick similar to the one he lashed out at Bobbi with, but May is much more visibly affected (despite it being a body shot and not a head shot).

As a reminder, May's taken hits from superhumans such as the following:

In both of these instances, she got up to fight after short notice. Bobbi outright tanking a hit from an opponent that hurt May with a similar attack is really impressive.

Pain tolerance wise, you already brought up Bobbi's feat. It's worth noting that the needles were only a small part of the pain. Bobbi was given a special anesthesia that would minimize the pain until several hours later, when it would all flood in at once. We see Bobbi in pain when Ward comes back in just before the fight, indicating that she's feeling those effects as the fight occurs. This is a great pain tolerance feat, one which will allow her to fight through slashes and any other inflictions of pain. Slade needs damn good strikes and accurate sword slashes targeted at vital areas to take her down.

I fully disagree with you comparing Slade's pain tolerance feat to hers. Slade's is good, yes. He didn't break after 324 days of questioning. But it's not nearly as applicable to combat as Bobbi's feat is. As far as I can tell, he just resisted day after day, which shows good willpower but nothing else. Bobbi actually had to fight right after her torture - which do you think is more applicable in the context of a fight such as this one? I'd say Bobbi's, and I don't see how it's debatable.

You also mentioned that Slade took a dozen hits from Oliver here. It's just not the case, it was 6 hits total. And I disagree with Slade being unaffected by Thea and Oliver's hits. He continued to fight which is impressive, but unaffected? Hardly... dude was reeling after Thea's knee, and Oliver's punch literally spun him around. "Unaffected" is what I'd use to describe Bobbi tanking Giyera's kick (which I've shown above).

Slade keeping still while a bullet's being dug out of his arm is a solid feat, not much else to say about that. Taking a kick from Wintergreen is solid but not that impressive, considering Wintergreen has very little to establish him in physicals otherwise.

Overall, I think they're fairly close in this category. If one has better pain tolerance in the context of a combat situation though, it's Bobbi.

Speed/Agility

Debunking Slade's "bullet timing"

Let's just... address the elephant in the room. You say those feats of Slade's are bullet timing? I disagree.

Play in 0.25x speed from here if you want.

I'll also provide screenshots:

He's in a position where he's recovering from his slash attack on one fodder
He's in a position where he's recovering from his slash attack on one fodder
He's practically in the same position when the bullet hits him
He's practically in the same position when the bullet hits him

Next instance...

Slade already has his arm up before the fodder shoots
Slade already has his arm up before the fodder shoots
Slade's arm is in that same exact position when the gun goes off
Slade's arm is in that same exact position when the gun goes off
Slade's arm is still in that position, and the bullet hits; not because he bullet-timed, but because he had his arm up before the guy started shooting
Slade's arm is still in that position, and the bullet hits; not because he bullet-timed, but because he had his arm up before the guy started shooting

And let's look at this one:

No Caption Provided

Slade's being shot literally everywhere on his upper torso in this gif. You can't just factor in the one bullet that hit his sword and chalk that up to bullet timing. You could just as easily make the claim that the scene shows Slade's lack of ability to bullet time, since he was hit everywhere. And even that holds more credibility, given how many bullets hit him all across his body as opposed to the one that hit his sword.

In other words, Slade's "bullet timing" is anything but. All three of the examples you pointed out are pretty easily shown to not be bullet-timing, if you analyze the scene at hand.

Bobbi's speed & agility

Bobbi definitely has the speed to contend with Slade, if not surpass him.

For basics, she dodges a quick telekinetic attack pretty easily.

She blitzes a gunman before he can pull a trigger (even though his finger is already on said trigger). Here is the gif.

She outpaces May's aim and firing speed to backflip out a window. This is also far greater agility and acrobatic skill than Slade's ever shown.

As a reference point, May can do this:

After the first guy is hit, May takes a tiny fraction of a second to shoot the second guy
After the first guy is hit, May takes a tiny fraction of a second to shoot the second guy

Bobbi was still able to outpace her.

Bobbi is more than capable of matching or exceeding Slade in speed, and she has an obvious advantage in sheer agility.

Skill

Bobbi has some great feats here, ones that place her decisively above Slade. The only area in which Slade has any sort of advantage is standalone fodder feats, because Bobbi doesn't really have many of those. What she has plenty of, are feats against skilled combatants. These scale her to a very high level.

Let's go over them categorically.

Bobbi vs Vin-Tak

Vin-Tak was a Kree warrior that matched Lady Sif. (I am having trouble finding the footage on YouTube, but I can go digging if you really want it).

With the use of her batons, Bobbi could keep him on the defensive. On another occasion, Bobbi broke past his defenses despite the massive physical disadvantage.

These are great showings of skill, as Vin-Tak himself is a trained warrior and has massively superhuman physicals to boot - going off of his feat against Sif. Slade doesn't really have a feat to compare with this when it comes to performances against physically superior opponents.

Bobbi vs Kara

Bobbi stomped Kara, a former SHIELD agent with extensive skills in combat.

Now, why is this impressive? I am going to inject some scaling into this equation, to paint a clearer picture. Kara could keep up with and ultimately defeat Skye, who was a capable field agent by this point in her career. Skye could keep up with five Alisha clones (she defeated two of them, and was dominating the remaining three before being overwhelmed... note how all five approach her at once in the beginning) . Each Alisha clone could fodderize a SHIELD agent.

There's a tier of combatants that can keep up with 5 of these fighters almost simultaneously, and this tier of combatants gets stomped by Bobbi in close quarters combat. That's the level of skill that Slade's dealing with here.

Bobbi vs May

Bobbi could keep up with Melinda May in combat on two separate occasions. (1, 2)

I'd argue that Bobbi is slightly superior. For example - in the first fight, May was actually willing to kill her while Bobbi was trying to escape.

May's feats are pretty well known, but I'll list some here anyways:

Bobbi vs Kara and Ward

Here's the real kicker. Bobbi's feat against Ward & Kara is definitely the feat that I think puts her decisively above Slade in skill. She is not only fighting a single established opponent, she is fighting two.

As you can see - towards the end of the fight, she is handling both Kara and Ward from two directly opposed angles:

No Caption Provided

She gets tagged, but she'd just been through hours of torture. Her mobility & speed are severely limited (as you can see by the way she limps), and she is still outskilling her opponents. She does get overwhelmed after her injuries prove to be too much to overcome, but doing as well as she does is a huge testament to her martial arts skill. She outhits Ward & Kara for the vast majority of the fight, and she would've done even better if she was at full health.

Now, of course, the feat is only impressive because the two opponents are skilled themselves. We've gone over why Kara is skilled in a previous section, so you know what she is capable of. Now let's look at why Ward is impressive.

Ward has multiple feats of combat skill that make Bobbi's feat impressive by association:

The Centipede Soldier feat also establishes Ward as having great physicals (taking multiple throws and slams from a superhuman opponent), so Bobbi keeping up with him while handling another opponent simultaneously is an insane showing. You could argue that Ward was also at a disadvantage because he had needles jammed into his neck and was caught by surprise initially, but I don't believe that is enough to counteract the fact that Bobbi had to ultimately fight both himself and Kara after the torture.

Comparing the Kara/Ward feat with the Oliver/Thea feat

These two feats can be easily compared/contrasted because they have a similar premise: a skilled fighter takes on two established opponents. I think you are being a little disingenuous by passing individual instances off as "Slade defeats Thea in a few seconds" and "Slade easily beats Oliver Queen" without showing the full fight and omitting some context.

  1. Slade vs Thea/Oliver full fight
  2. Bobbi vs Kara/Ward full fight

First of all, Oliver was injured before the fight. Here's the clip; we see him get pierced in the shoulder. Barely 2 minutes pass before Slade makes his appearance and Oliver's forced into a combat situation. We then see Slade repeatedly hit Oliver on the exact spot where he'd just been injured, exacerbating the pain and giving Slade the edge.

I did a quick tally of the hit counts, including critical slams and such.

For the Slade vs Thea/Oliver fight, these are the tallies of the hits connected:

  • Slade on Oliver - 8
  • Oliver on Slade - 8
  • Slade on Thea - 1
  • Thea on Slade - 1

I am not counting the part where Oliver tackled him down the hill, and I am not counting the part where Thea hit him from behind with the wooden pole.

For the Bobbi vs Kara/Ward fight, these are the tallies of the hits connected:

  • Bobbi on Ward - 10
  • Ward on Bobbi - 8
  • Bobbi on Kara - 4
  • Kara on Bobbi - 1

I am not counting the part where Bobbi took Ward by surprise initially, and I am counting the part at the end where Ward punches her to finish the fight.

I am showing Slade leniency by not counting pivotal moments that work against him. I am also grading Bobbi more critically by including the blow that defeated her and removing her initial attack barrage from the equation. Even still, Bobbi comes out superior in a hit-for-hit comparison. Now let's factor in the fact that I provided superior raw unarmed feats for Ward and Kara than you did for Oliver and Thea.

Defeating trained fodder like Oliver did is something I highlighted above in Ward's skill section, and I provided a very solid feat against a superhuman on top of that. In sheer h2h, the feat I provided for Kara is better than Thea somewhat keeping up with Merlyn in a sword fight as well. If Thea kept up with Merlyn unarmed and fought Slade with a sword, that would be more definitive for scaling purposes; but robbing her of her weapon of choice? That's less certain, since it's logical to say that Thea would be better with the weapon she's trained in, than with her bare hands. Also, you have to consider the fact that Merlyn consistently holds back against Thea.

If you want to contest the hit counts of the two fights, we can go over them on a case by case basis.

Breaking down the Slade/Joe/Diggle scaling

I do want to point out that those guys that Diggle defeated weren't actual League of Assassins members. They were a part of Talia's cult, which was a different faction altogether. A faction like the Thanatos Guild was as skilled as their League predecessors, but they were more of a direct offshoot than Talia's cult was. We kind of see this when Diggle has a tougher time with Thanatos Guild assassins than he does with Talia's cult:

No Caption Provided

And that's corroborated by this statement, which Diggle makes later in the episode:

No Caption Provided

So this basically ties the League of Assassins to the Thanatos Guild, implying a similar skill level.

The reasons why I don't think Diggle was factoring the cult into the equation when he referred to "those guys" is because:

  1. It had only been a few months since he'd fought that cult, but the statement implies it's been a while since he's faced a LoA level of opponent
  2. Dig implies here that he doesn't really like to go up against the LoA, whereas he had no real problems with Talia's cult

Even besides that, the case of consistency with Joe/Diggle can be called into question.

We've seen Diggle take on higher level fighters like Diaz, who can give Oliver trouble. I'm sure you recall Oliver stomping Joe in seconds. The validity of Joe stomping Diggle is questionable at best, and doesn't seem consistent with the fact that Diggle's at point where Oliver can't just walk all over him like he did to Joe. If you disagree, we can go over that in more depth.

Also - Lyla stomping a Ghost happened in the same episode where civilians were keeping up with them just fine, IIRC. Kind of puts doubt on the reliability of said feat, no? If this is not the same episode, that's my mistake - but I think it was the last episode of season 4. So using that to establish a fodder LoA (or Talia's cult) ninja's skill seems faulty if that's the case.

Countering Slade vs Oliver (Season 2 fight)

Slade definitely performed well here. But I think you're delving too far into the realm of head canon and speculation when you say "note that the antidote was knocking out all other Mirakuru Soldiers too so it is very likely that Slade wasn't at 100% during the fight." Could just as easily argue that Slade was one of the few people to have been injected with Mirakuru directly, without the use of a biotransfusion chamber - this means he metabolized the Mirakuru directly in his bloodstream. So that might mitigate the effects of the cure, that's another way to look at it. Bottom line is, we don't know... since Slade didn't receive a diluted form of Mirakuru from someone else's blood, he got the actual thing. There's no way to determine if him pushing through is a product of willpower, his "purer" serum, etc. So we should only go by what we see or what we can infer.

Ok, moving on from that point - it's definitely a good feat for Slade to keep up with Oliver, but I am not convinced that it is equal to any of Bobbi's feats against established opponents. The feat you provided for Oliver (beating around 10 thugs in the hallway) is pretty good. It might even be his best melee feat prior to his League of Assassins training. At that point, it comes down to what you think is more important to establish a character - feats against lesser numbers of superior fodder & feats against superhumans? Or feats against larger numbers of baseline low-quality fodder? There are a lot of ways to look at what constitutes skill.

I don't think that Oliver's feat is anything special compared to feats against superhumans and such. May's Primitives feat strikes me as much better if we're talking raw close quarters combat skill. One thing I notice in a lot of Arrow debates is the focus on whether opponents attack simultaneously or one at a time. If we grade by this metric, then May's feat is already better; the most Oliver ever engages is 2 at a time, May engages 3 simultaneously and breaks them up by outmaneuvering them and multi-tasking between every opponent.

I don't necessarily agree with this metric though, since there can be flaws in it. So let's also look at other factors. Some which often jump out when it comes to fodder are:

  1. Skill of fodder (advantage: May)
  2. Physicals of fodder (advantage: May)
  3. Total number of fodder (advantage: Oliver)
  4. Amount of fodder engaged at once (advantage: May)

Oliver really only has the advantage in that his fodder were greater in total number. May took on more surrounding her at the same time, and her fodder were superior to boot.

Breaking down the Captain Boomerang feat

Not sure where you're getting the "10 ARGUS agents" number from.

No Caption Provided

We see the scene afterwards, and there are 6 agents lying on the ground. One of the bodies lines up perfectly with where the agent fell after Boomerang threw his boomerang backwards, so there's nobody off-screen either.

That is consistent with the fact that we see 5 ARGUS agents in front of Boomerang at the start:

No Caption Provided

And then one comes from behind later on to get KO'ed by a boomerang toss, making it 6 total.

It's still a good feat of skill and mobility, but I just wanted to clear that up. From a raw cqc standpoint, this feat doesn't add anything to the table that Bobbi can't overcome easily. If you disagree, we can go over that in more depth.

Quick note about the Billy Wintergreen feat

Shado had her back turned and had to turn around and open fire. You're acting like Billy blitzed her from the front, which isn't the case. Also, the best combat feat you brought up for Shado is beating two mercenaries - something that will barely register on Bobbi's radar. I just don't think this feat brings much to the table, but it's a decent baseline for Slade. If you disagree with my take on this, we can go over it in more depth.

Quick look at Slade's fodder feats

No Caption Provided

I only see 3 ninja here. Either way, as you said, he caught them by surprise.

No Caption Provided

This is a good feat, but I don't think it brings much to the table given the level that Bobbi scales to. If you disagree, we can go over this in more depth.

No Caption Provided

Slade didn't really take out all 5. He mainly evades them, and knocks down 3 of them in the process. And then it pans away from him, so we have no clue if his opponents were down for the count or not... or how long the fight dragged on, for that matter. Still a good feat, but doesn't stack up to the level that Bobbi scales to.

No Caption Provided

Good combat speed, doesn't really say much of skill though (given that it's an ambush). Don't want to downplay it though, it shows good coordination & quickness on Slade's part.

Bobbi is comfortably more skilled given the respective feats we've both posted.

Conclusion

Bobbi has the skill, physicality, speed, and pain tolerance to beat Slade here. While he has a weapons advantage, it's not nearly enough to save him from a beatdown. Bobbi's combat ability combined with her use of the batons will secure her victory.

No Caption Provided

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#25 Edited by The_Magister (13872 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by The_Magister (13872 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#27 Posted by Kevd4wg (12701 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver Queen has remained conscious after being hit by Supergirl.

I forgot about this scaling lol

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#28 Posted by Subline (7733 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: I agree that was a bit too far, but I will address that in counters.

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#29 Posted by Subline (7733 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: I've done everything and have done around half of the skill section, my post should be up within a few days.

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#30 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Edited by The_Magister (13872 posts) - - Show Bio

@subline: No rush. Do you wanna keep it at 2 posts each, so we can finish quicker? I was thinking that

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#32 Posted by Subline (7733 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by Subline (7733 posts) - - Show Bio

@subline: No rush. Do you wanna keep it at 2 posts each, so we can finish quicker? I was thinking that

Yeah 2 posts each sounds good.

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#34 Posted by DC77 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

Mag ragdolled Sub with that counter. Assuming Mag bothers to finish this should be a decisive victory in his favour.

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#35 Posted by Subline (7733 posts) - - Show Bio

Closer: Slade Wilson

No Caption Provided

Strength

Slade:

Oliver remaining conscious after being ragdolled by Supergirl (or is it Overgirl?) is pretty wildly inconsistent with his general showings. I don't think I need to go over CW kryptonians' feats to establish this, I believe most people here have a general idea of what they can do. Oliver's been consistently hurt or put down by much less; like hits from Mirakuru soldiers, small-scale explosives, and hits from peak humans or even fodder. If you want to contest this point, we can go over it in detail to elaborate on why Oliver remaining conscious after a hit from a kryptonian is a massive outlier.

And I'm inclined to believe that Slade oneshotted him like that because it was an ambush. We've seen them fight in head-on scenarios, and Slade's never been that quick to put Oliver down without a surprise attack. In the same episode as the one you're referencing, Slade fought Thea and Oliver.(Video) He didn't exactly oneshot either this time, since he didn't get to ambush them.

Same goes for his fight against Oliver in 2x23, as seen here. He didn't have the element of surprise, so he wasn't able to oneshot Oliver or even come close to it.

I agree about the Supergirl point, that was way too far-fetched. But he still has taken hits from beings like The Flashwho even at his early stages could create holes in punching bags.

Slade one shotting him may have partially been due to it being an ambush, but Oliver had a good time to react, and it at least shows that Slade can hurt Oliver (as shown in his other fights) and put him down, and Oliver is more durable than Bobbi. So Slade will be able to put Bobbi down too.

I believe Oliver is more durable than Bobbi as:

Bobbi:

Here, she slams an end of a long table so hard that the other side flips up and KO's her opponent

Here, she flips a HYDRA agent with her baton

I don't think these feats are anything that Oliver can't replicate, he's already shown to be able to ragdoll men with his punches and KO the Dark Archer. Slade took many hits from Oliver in their fights.

I also don't think these are anything that Slade himself can't replicate, Slade has repeatedly ragdolled Jackals and sent them flying hard enough to knock down racks, second instance.

Here, she hurls her batons hard enough to instantly KO two soldiers

One shotting featless fodder is hardly impressive.

She also sent Grant Ward flying through a glass window with a two-footed kick:

I can provide feats for Ward's durability & damage soak in my next post, if you'd like
I can provide feats for Ward's durability & damage soak in my next post, if you'd like

This doesn't seem that much more impressive than Slade kicking a man over a table, as Bobbi here had momentum from the bar and used 2 feet to push Ward back, whereas Slade has no momentum and uses 1 leg.

Another impressive feat from her is this. She sends Vin-Tak, a Kree warrior capable of holding his own against Lady Sif (both physically and skill-wise), flying backwards into a wall with a kick.

I don't see why this is anymore impressive than kicking any regular guy into a wall, if the kick hurt him then it would be different, but in this case I don't see the difference.

Durability

She's punched in the face and thrown a considerable distance by a Kree warrior that matched Lady Sif. Bobbi's hurt from the Kree's attacks, but has no lasting injuries afterwards.

Here, she tanks a kick from Giyera.

As a reminder, Giyera's kicks on May were much more impactful:

No Caption Provided

The first kick is a side kick similar to the one he lashed out at Bobbi with, but May is much more visibly affected (despite it being a body shot and not a head shot).

As a reminder, May's taken hits from superhumans such as the following:

In both of these instances, she got up to fight after short notice. Bobbi outright tanking a hit from an opponent that hurt May with a similar attack is really impressive.

I only disagree with 1 thing here, and thats the Giyera kick.

Giyera had a lot of momentum against May with his kick as he did a full flip whereas against Bobbi it was just a regular kick, so there is no direct comparison to the feat.

These feats do suggest she can take a good amount of hits from Slade, but Slade won't have to rely on his strength alone to put down Bobbi, as he will have his Sword to help him do this.

Pain tolerance wise, you already brought up Bobbi's feat. It's worth noting that the needles were only a small part of the pain. Bobbi was given a special anesthesia that would minimize the pain until several hours later, when it would all flood in at once. We see Bobbi in painwhen Ward comes back in just before the fight, indicating that she's feeling those effects as the fight occurs. This is a great pain tolerance feat, one which will allow her to fight through slashes and any other inflictions of pain. Slade needs damn good strikes and accurate sword slashes targeted at vital areas to take her down.

You claimed that she took much more punishment, but didn't provide any links or even state what punishment.

This feat isn't nearly enough to say that she can take sword slashes from Slade or a cut near a vital area.

I fully disagree with you comparing Slade's pain tolerance feat to hers. Slade's is good, yes. He didn't break after 324 days of questioning. But it's not nearly as applicable to combat as Bobbi's feat is. As far as I can tell, he just resisted day after day, which shows good willpower but nothing else. Bobbi actually had to fight right after her torture - which do you think is more applicable in the context of a fight such as this one? I'd say Bobbi's, and I don't see how it's debatable.

Bobbi's feat is more combat applicable, but Bobbi will need pain tolerance as Slade will have a sword, whereas Bobbi will have to rely on blunt force.

The reason I pointed out Slade's feat was just to show that he won't ever give up, and Bobbi will have to put him down for good.

Bobbi however, will have to have great pain tolerance to prove she can take Sword slashes, and she has no feat which proves such.

You also mentioned that Slade took a dozen hits from Oliver here. It's just not the case, it was 6 hits total. And I disagree with Slade being unaffected by Thea and Oliver's hits. He continued to fight which is impressive, but unaffected? Hardly... dude was reeling after Thea's knee, and Oliver's punch literally spun him around.

I was basing the amount of hits off of the rate, and the punching sound stops as the scene cuts to Thea, where I believe Oliver would have kept punching. So it would have been around 8 punches, anyway sorry for my overestimate, but you get the point with this.

As for Slade being affected by their hits, he was slightly stunned but it didn't compromise his combat ability in the slightest, as after the hits he carries on fighting regularly a second later.

Speed

Deathstroke's Bullet Timing:

Let's just... address the elephant in the room. You say those feats of Slade's are bullet timing? I disagree.

Play in 0.25x speed from here if you want.

I'll also provide screenshots:

He's in a position where he's recovering from his slash attack on one fodder
He's in a position where he's recovering from his slash attack on one fodder
He's practically in the same position when the bullet hits him
He's practically in the same position when the bullet hits him

I strongly disagree with this. After he slashes the guy he isn't in the same position as when the bullet hits him.

No Caption Provided

Slade is clearly looking the other way and his arm is well out of the way.

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Slade has clearly moved quite a bit from his last position.

Next instance...

Slade already has his arm up before the fodder shoots
Slade already has his arm up before the fodder shoots
Slade's arm is in that same exact position when the gun goes off
Slade's arm is in that same exact position when the gun goes off
Slade's arm is still in that position, and the bullet hits; not because he bullet-timed, but because he had his arm up before the guy started shooting
Slade's arm is still in that position, and the bullet hits; not because he bullet-timed, but because he had his arm up before the guy started shooting

His arm is not in the same position in the last 2 screenshots, he's clearly moved his arm at a considerable angle to hit the bullet as his gun was much more vertical in the 2nd screenshot than the last.

Think of it this way, his arm was in the place where the bullet hit for a split second because he was swinging his arm at a high speed, his arm wasn't stationary while the guy shot, if it was it could be rendered aim block. But instead, Slade moves his arm from a low position to a high position at a very high speed and manages to hit the bullet, if you are moving your arm fast and a bullet strikes, it's bullet timing, if it's still then it's aim block.

And let's look at this one:

No Caption Provided

Slade's being shot literally everywhere on his upper torso in this gif. You can't just factor in the one bulletthat hit his sword and chalk that up to bullet timing. You could just as easily make the claim that the scene shows Slade's lack of ability to bullet time, since he was hit everywhere. And even that holds more credibility, given how many bullets hit him all across his body as opposed to the one that hit his sword.

At first he gets shot everywhere in the torso as he gets shot from out of nowhere. Then after he hits a few bullets with his sword. It seems too co-incidential for him to hit such a small projectile with such a thin weapon.

Bobbi's Speed:

Bobbi definitely has the speed to contend with Slade, if not surpass him.

For basics, she dodges a quick telekinetic attack pretty easily.

The speed of this object is unquantifiable, and Slade bullet timing is really leagues above this feat anyway.

She blitzes a gunman before he can pull a trigger (even though his finger is already on said trigger). Here is the gif.

So this proves that Bobbi is faster than singular fodder? I don't see how that compares to Slade, who drew his pistols and blitzed numerous soldiers before they could react. You might say that it was an ambush, but the first soldier had time to react when Slade pulls out his gun and after he shoots the first soldier, the other soldiers would have had more than enough time to react.

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She outpaces May's aim and firing speed to backflip out a window. This is also far greater agility and acrobatic skill than Slade's ever shown.

As a reference point, May can do this:

After the first guy is hit, May takes a tiny fraction of a second to shoot the second guy
After the first guy is hit, May takes a tiny fraction of a second to shoot the second guy

Bobbi was still able to outpace her.

Again, this proves that Bobbi is faster than May. But based off of the gif you've shown Slade is also a good bit faster, as May's feat is out-reacting a single fodder whereas Slade outreacts multiple.

I also don't see how agility is going to affect this battle much, Oliver is an agile combatant but Slade could still take him down. And agility isn't something that is expressed much in Bobbi's fighting style.

Skill

Bobbi:

Vin Tak:

Vin-Tak was a Kree warrior that matched Lady Sif. (I am having trouble finding the footage on YouTube, but I can go digging if you really want it).

With the use of her batons, Bobbi could keep him on the defensive. On another occasion, Bobbi broke past his defenses despite the massive physical disadvantage.

These are great showings of skill, as Vin-Tak himself is a trained warrior and has massively superhuman physicals to boot - going off of his feat against Sif. Slade doesn't really have a feat to compare with this when it comes to performances against physically superior opponents.

I don't see why this is so impressive skill wise, you haven't provided a single skill feat for Vin Tak or Sif for me to address so Bobbi dancing around him for a while is hardly impressive in terms of skill.

I also do believe Slade could replicate this feat, Slade was able to fight evenly with Oliver w/ a Bow as I established in my first post, and Oliver at this point could give Cyrus Gold a good fight, an enhanced metahuman with Superhuman physical characteristics similar to Vin Tak.

Agent 33:

Bobbi stomped Kara, a former SHIELD agent with extensive skills in combat.

Now, why is this impressive? I am going to inject some scaling into this equation, to paint a clearer picture. Kara could keep up with and ultimately defeat Skye, who was a capable field agent by this point in her career. Skye could keep up with five Alisha clones (she defeated two of them, and was dominating the remaining three before being overwhelmed... note how all five approach her at once in the beginning) . Each Alisha clone could fodderize a SHIELD agent.

There's a tier of combatants that can keep up with 5 of these fighters almost simultaneously, and this tier of combatants gets stomped by Bobbi in close quarters combat. That's the level of skill that Slade's dealing with here.

I can definitely see Slade replicating this, as he was able to stomp a similarly skilled opponent in Thea Queen, who can defeat 3 Ghosts while surrounded. And although Ghosts aren't as skilled as a Alisha Clone and there were a smaller amount, Thea actually beats the Ghosts whereas Daisy loses to the Clones eventually, and Thea disposes of them in a short amount of time.

Melinda May:

Bobbi could keep up with Melinda May in combat on two separate occasions. (1, 2)

I'd argue that Bobbi is slightly superior. For example - in the first fight, May was actually willing to kill her while Bobbi was trying to escape.

Slade was similarly able to deafeat Oliver in H2H, and according to Oliver's conscious he can't beat Slade, and I do believe Oliver is superior to May.

May's feats are pretty well known, but I'll list some here anyways:

May wasn't fighting the Primitives "simultaneously", she fights them 1 or 2 at a time but in quick succession, Oliver took out 2 Mirakuru Soldiers simultaneously and much quicker than May did. I also view Mirakuru users as above Primitive Soldiers, having also snapped metal chains but a soldier was also able to lift a large metal object which was calculated to weigh around 1300kg.

In these gifs May fights 1 or 2 (max) fodder at a time, Oliver was able to go untagged by Nyssa al Ghul, who could take out 6 LoA Ninjas.

A pretty good feat, but I believe Oliver taking out 2 Mirakuru Users is better just because of the ease in which he did it and the time it took.

  • Can keep up with a skilled Kree warrior that was in the Kree Imperial fleet and considered to be the best combatant in Kasius' ranks (1, 2) - May did this with a bilateral quadricep tear which Enoch stated should have made standing practically impossible, let alone fighting

The injury didn't seem to be compromising her combat anyway, besides Oliver was able to out-maneuver Roy Harper with ease, a Mirakuru User who could punch through metal and take out 2 armed thugs with ease.

Speed wise, she is very impressive with excellent agility & mobility (1, 2)

Oliver has demonstrated high levels of agility himself, but also speed too, having caught arrows shot from behind him.

Bobbi vs Kara & Ward:

Here's the real kicker. Bobbi's feat against Ward & Kara is definitely the feat that I think puts her decisively above Slade in skill. She is not only fighting a single established opponent, she is fighting two.

As you can see - towards the end of the fight, she is handling both Kara and Ward from two directly opposed angles:

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She only takes them on one at a time, not simultaneously.

She gets tagged, but she'd just been through hours of torture. Her mobility & speed are severely limited (as you can see by the way she limps), and she is still outskilling her opponents. She does get overwhelmed after her injuries prove to be too much to overcome, but doing as well as she does is a huge testament to her martial arts skill. She outhits Ward & Kara for the vast majority of the fight, and she would've done even better if she was at full health.

Individually I believe Bobbi is superior to Ward but only by a slight margin, as we could see earlier in their fight that both land a similar amount of hits, which could have been why Bobbi was limping in the above gif, having just taken a beating from Ward.

Bobbi is definitely above Kara, but this has been addressed, I don't believe it is right to say that Bobbi is superior to Ward & Kara combined, since Ward alone gave Bobbi a good fight, and Kara gave Agent May a good fight who we already established at around Bobbi's level.

Ward has multiple feats of combat skill that make Bobbi's feat impressive by association:

I'm not trying to say that Ward has no skill, but I think there is a quite clear disparity between Oliver & Ward in skill.

As pointed out before Oliver gave Nyssa a solid fight, and Nyssa was able to take out 6 LoA Ninjas while surrounded (Gifs and Links are provided earlier in the post), that is more fodder than what Ward takes on in any of those gifs, and he usually takes them on one or 2 at a time. Not to mention how he gets tagged much more.

The Centipede Soldier feat also establishes Ward as having great physicals (taking multiple throws and slams from a superhuman opponent), so

Oliver was able to keep up with Super Soldiers too, such as Roy Harper, Cyrus Gold and 2 Mirakuru Soldiers, he can definitely replicate this feat (links / gifs provided earlier).

Bobbi keeping up with him while handling another opponent simultaneously is an insane showing. You could argue that Ward was also at a disadvantage because he had needles jammed into his neck and was caught by surprise initially, but I don't believe that is enough to counteract the fact that Bobbi had to ultimately fight both himself and Kara after the torture.

But Bobbi only seems to "handle" them one at a time. And isn't far above either of them in terms of skill as we've established.

Deathstroke:

Thea & Oliver:

First of all, Oliver was injured before the fight. Here's the clip; we see him get pierced in the shoulder. Barely 2 minutes pass before Slade makes his appearance and Oliver's forced into a combat situation. We then see Slade repeatedly hit Oliver on the exact spot where he'd just been injured, exacerbating the pain and giving Slade the edge.

I think this clearly shows why Slade took care of Oliver with such ease, but even without any injuries I believe Slade is above Oliver, having gaining the upper hand in their Season 2 fight and Oliver's conscious also believes that he can't defeat Slade.

For the Slade vs Thea/Oliver fight, these are the tallies of the hits connected:

  • Slade on Oliver - 8
  • Oliver on Slade - 8
  • Slade on Thea - 1
  • Thea on Slade - 1

I am not counting the part where Oliver tackled him down the hill, and I am not counting the part where Thea hit him from behind with the wooden pole.

You said that you are not counting the tackle, but still counted what came after. 6 of the hits that Oliver landed were due to Oliver tackling Slade down the hill which wasn't really fair for Slade as he was in a disadvantageous position to begin with and ended on the ground rather than Oliver.

For the Bobbi vs Kara/Ward fight, these are the tallies of the hits connected:

  • Bobbi on Ward - 10
  • Ward on Bobbi - 8
  • Bobbi on Kara - 4
  • Kara on Bobbi - 1

I am not counting the part where Bobbi took Ward by surprise initially, and I am counting the part at the end where Ward punches her to finish the fight.

I am showing Slade leniency by not counting pivotal moments that work against him. I am also grading Bobbi more critically by including the blow that defeated her and removing her initial attack barrage from the equation. Even still, Bobbi comes out superior in a hit-for-hit comparison. Now let's factor in the fact that I provided superior raw unarmed feats for Ward and Kara than you did for Oliver and Thea.

All you have really done is count the hits without any context.

For all the 1v1 segments of Slade's battle he had a clear upper hand against either Thea or Oliver whereas Bobbi clearly had the upper hand against Kara but was hardly showing a clear advantage against Ward, as they were both dishing out a similar amount of attacks, but Ward was also landing more meaningful attacks like slams and ragdolls.

Defeating trained fodder like Oliver did is something I highlighted above in Ward's skill section, and I provided a very solid feat against a superhuman on top of that. In sheer h2h, the feat I provided for Kara is better than Thea somewhat keeping up with Merlyn in a sword fight as well. If Thea kept up with Merlyn unarmed and fought Slade with a sword, that would be more definitive for scaling purposes; but robbing her of her weapon of choice? That's less certain, since it's logical to say that Thea would be better with the weapon she's trained in, than with her bare hands. Also, you have to consider the fact that Merlyn consistently holds back against Thea.

I don't believe the gap between Oliver & Ward in pure H2H Skill is that large, but since Oliver had an injured shoulder and Slade didn't have his full gear, I will go deeper into Ward vs Oliver later using the Slade vs Oliver S2 fight which I believe gives us a clearer understanding of how they compare.

Slade vs Oliver

Slade definitely performed well here. But I think you're delving too far into the realm of head canon and speculation when you say "note that the antidote was knocking out all other Mirakuru Soldiers too so it is very likely that Slade wasn't at 100% during the fight." Could just as easily argue that Slade was one of the few people to have been injected with Mirakuru directly, without the use of a biotransfusion chamber - this means he metabolized the Mirakuru directly in his bloodstream. So that might mitigate the effects of the cure, that's another way to look at it. Bottom line is, we don't know... since Slade didn't receive a diluted form of Mirakuru from someone else's blood, he got the actual thing. There's no way to determine if him pushing through is a product of willpower, his "purer" serum, etc. So we should only go by what we see or what we can infer.

I don't think there's much room for me to contest against this so I'll concede to this point but I don't believe it compromises my overall argument anyway, moving on.

Ok, moving on from that point - it's definitely a good feat for Slade to keep up with Oliver, but I am not convinced that it is equal to any of Bobbi's feats against established opponents. The feat you provided for Oliver (beating around 10 thugs in the hallway) is pretty good. It might even be his best melee feat prior to his League of Assassins training. At that point, it comes down to what you think is more important to establish a character - feats against lesser numbers of superior fodder & feats against superhumans? Or feats against larger numbers of baseline low-quality fodder? There are a lot of ways to look at what constitutes skill.

I don't think that Oliver's feat is anything special compared to feats against superhumans and such. May's Primitives feat strikes me as much better if we're talking raw close quarters combat skill. One thing I notice in a lot of Arrow debates is the focus on whether opponents attack simultaneously or one at a time. If we grade by this metric, then May's feat is already better; the most Oliver ever engages is 2 at a time, May engages 3 simultaneously and breaks them up by outmaneuvering them and multi-tasking between every opponent.

If your point for Bobbi being able to replicate such a showing against Oliver I disagree, I've already gone through Oliver vs May and I believe Oliver is clearly superior based off of him also having showings against better superhumans, but also having the upper hand against Nyssa al Ghul who could take out 6 LoA Ninjas while surrounded, Ninjas who are all trained combatants.

Skill of fodder (advantage: May)

Hardly, I don't think you'll disagree when I say that LoA are more skilled than most conventional fodder and are at the very least equal to regular Shield fodder skill-wise, but Nyssa also kept up with much more fodder.

Physicals of fodder (advantage: May)

If we use Oliver's feat against Roy Harper or Mirakuru Soldiers, they clearly have superior physical attributes to Primitives.

Amount of fodder engaged at once (advantage: May)

May only ever engages one or two (max) fodder at a time, however Nyssa fights up to 4 or more Ninjas at once. And Oliver had a clear advantage against Nyssa, whereas he did not against Slade.

Joe Wilson:

I do want to point out that those guys that Diggle defeated weren't actual League of Assassins members. They were a part of Talia's cult, which was a different faction altogether. A faction like the Thanatos Guild was as skilled as their League predecessors, but they were more of a direct offshoot than Talia's cult was. We kind of see this when Diggle has a tougher time with Thanatos Guild assassins than he does with Talia's cult:

No Caption Provided

And that's corroborated by this statement, which Diggle makes later in the episode:

No Caption Provided

So this basically ties the League of Assassins to the Thanatos Guild, implying a similar skill level.

The reasons why I don't think Diggle was factoring the cult into the equation when he referred to "those guys" is because:

  1. It had only been a few months since he'd fought that cult, but the statement implies it's been a while since he's faced a LoA level of opponent
  2. Dig implies here that he doesn't really like to go up against the LoA, whereas he had no real problems with Talia's cult

I don't see anything wrong here, I agree with almost everything.

I'd just like to point out that although Talia's ninjas may not be as skilled as League Ninjas, they are still trained which should establish them as above regular street thugs and their swords also give them a good reach advantage over opponents.

We've seen Diggle take on higher level fighters like Diaz, who can give Oliver trouble. I'm sure you recall Oliver stomping Joe in seconds.

The thing is Joe wasn't expecting Oliver to randomly get up and attack him, and Joe also had a sword when fighting Diggle, he didn't against Oliver.

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The validity of Joe stomping Diggle is questionable at best, and doesn't seem consistent with the fact that Diggle's at point where Oliver can't just walk all over him like he did to Joe. If you disagree, we can go over that in more depth.

I don't believe it was a total stomp, Diggle got a good few knee strikes in, but Joe's suit protected him and made the knee strikes pretty much harmless, then Joe took down Diggle and held him at bay with his sword.

They were pretty even in skill, and I believe some of that can be credited to Joe having his sword and suit, but he also had both of these things against Slade.

I believe Slade is quite clearly on another level to Diggle when Diggle is unarmed and Slade is armed.

Also - Lyla stomping a Ghost happened in the same episode where civilians were keeping up with them just fine, IIRC. Kind of puts doubt on the reliability of said feat, no? If this is not the same episode, that's my mistake - but I think it was the last episode of season 4. So using that to establish a fodder LoA (or Talia's cult) ninja's skill seems faulty if that's the case.

In the fight you are referring to the Ghosts were clearly heavily out-numbered, there were much more civilians than the latter.

I don't think we can just say Ghosts are that trash, since they were credited as:

They are nothing like we've seen before. Well trained, well armed.

Captain Boomerang:

Not sure where you're getting the "10 ARGUS agents" number from.

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We see the scene afterwards, and there are 6 agents lying on the ground. One of the bodies lines up perfectly with where the agent fell after Boomerang threw his boomerang backwards, so there's nobody off-screen either.

That is consistent with the fact that we see 5 ARGUS agents in front of Boomerang at the start:

No Caption Provided

There was also a guy at the back who is hidden initially but we see him move his arm.

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From what I count he takes out 7 in CQC and 8 if we include the guy that he throws his Boomerang at during the start. I made a short breakdown for this. Anyway my bad for claiming it was 10, but it's definitely more than 6.

It's still a good feat of skill and mobility, but I just wanted to clear that up. From a raw cqc standpoint, this feat doesn't add anything to the table that Bobbi can't overcome easily. If you disagree, we can go over that in more depth.

I do believe Bobbi could replicate Boomerang's feat but what I can't see her doing is stomping Boomerang as easily as Slade did.

She's never done anything to suggest she can.

Billy Wintergreen:

Shado had her back turned and had to turn around and open fire. You're acting like Billy blitzed her from the front, which isn't the case. Also, the best combat feat you brought up for Shado is beating two mercenaries - something that will barely register on Bobbi's radar. I just don't think this feat brings much to the table, but it's a decent baseline for Slade. If you disagree with my take on this, we can go over it in more depth.

No disputes here, and yeah this feat was just to establish Slade, it's not one of his best feats.

Slade's Fodder Feats:

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I only see 3 ninja here. Either way, as you said, he caught them by surprise.

From what I see he takes out two at the start, by then the other 2 have had time to get ready then he kills the other 2, anyway this was just a good base feat. I can see Bobbi doing this for sure.

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This is a good feat, but I don't think it brings much to the table given the level that Bobbi scales to. If you disagree, we can go over this in more depth.

I agree, most of these fodder feats were just used as a baseline to establish consistency.

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Slade didn't really take out all 5. He mainly evades them, and knocks down 3 of them in the process. And then it pans away from him, so we have no clue if his opponents were down for the count or not... or how long the fight dragged on, for that matter. Still a good feat, but doesn't stack up to the level that Bobbi scales to.

He drops all 5 in the gif, I only really used this to show that Slade is also a capable unarmed fighter even when at a reach disadvantage, which he won't be at here.

No Caption Provided

Good combat speed, doesn't really say much of skill though (given that it's an ambush). Don't want to downplay it though, it shows good coordination & quickness on Slade's part.

Agreed with most stuff here.

Conclusion

Most points from my opener still stand, Slade is durable enough to take a few hits and so is Bobbi, but Slade has a higher damage output due to his Sword and based off of his showings against more skilled opponents such as Oliver Queen, he will be able to land some Sword Slashes and strikes on Bobbi which will ultimately put Bobbi down quicker than her blunt force attacks will put Slade down.

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#36 Posted by Subline (7733 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by DC77 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

Predictably terrible rebuttal filled with dumb and zero logic.

Mag has this in the bag, even if his next post sucks, which it won't.

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#38 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4756 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by Subline (7733 posts) - - Show Bio