Viners of all ages! Welcome to this grand gladiatorial match-up of modern bronze and golden statues hailing from both sides of comic book television! In one corner of the battleground, we are graced with the presence of Star City's legendary sharpshooter and master hand to hand expert: The Arrow! On the other side, the ground trembles in the wake of Harlem's champion of the streets and steel-breaker: Luke Cage!
One battle. Two contestants. And hopefully more than three voters willing to take their analytical prowess to this episode of CaV! Who will come out with booted heel over body? You decide!
Arrow (CW)
vs.
Luke Cage (MCU)
Rules
Luke Cage has his fists. Arrow has his customized Oneida Kestrel bow, quiver, and his assortment of trick arrows and flechettes (this includes grappling hook, ensnarement, recording, flashbang, explosive, flare, tranquilizer, incendiary, remote detonator, electric, zip tie, bola, rope tying, cable net, tear gas, magnetic, parachute, shield, normal, and double arrows/flechettes - descriptions are in the link)
They have not encountered each other, but have rough knowledge on each other based off what they've heard in the news or in urban legend. Luke knows that the Arrow is a bow-wielding vigilante, acrobat, and martial artists. Oliver knows that Luke is a superhumanly durable and strong individual with a rough police and "criminal" record. For sake of fairness, Oliver's communication line to Felicity will be jammed. Meaning he can't ask her to do research on him.
Neither of them are prepared for this fight. Both of their appearances come as a shock to the other.
Morals are on for each. Oliver isn't going to kill a supposed hero of Harlem; Luke disapproves of Oliver's ways but isn't going to finish him either. However, both believe that a loved one is in danger and they're not afraid to cripple each other if they have to.
This means victory is obtained by KO or incapacitation.
@normanbates: Alright. Then I'll do my best to oblige.
Introduction
Luke Cage: saint, protector, tank with a hoodie. I would assume that many here on the Vine would know of Luke Cage, even if they haven't seen his cinematic counterpart on the Netflix screen. As such, it should come as no surprise that Mr. Cage is a walking titanium riot shield - he takes damage no problem; he deals damage no problem. Bullets don't put him down, explosions don't put him down, a glowing "iron fist" won't put down. So, why, on Yahweh's luscious green and blue earth should arrows be any sort of force nature against brawn of such magnitude? How is the legendary Oliver Queen going to bruise, maim, or hurt Mr. Cage in any fashion? Answer: he doesn't have to. Buckle up kiddies and enjoy the ride!
Analysis of Luke Cage
As a walking statue of titanium invincibility, Mr. Cage poses a threat to Oliver Queen as a superhuman fitted with unnatural strength and nearly impenetrable epidermic durability. With that said, it should be noted that in this analysis, Luke Cage's strength and durability will be the primary focus, since speed and hand to hand skill is negligible due to lack of significant feats regarding these aspects. If my contender, @normanbates wishes to argue otherwise, he is free to do so.
That said, even though the envelope will contain Luke's more positive capabilities, I will put a stamp on what his fighting ability looks like. That is, to say, that he is very casual and hardly inputs any real energy into a fight unless faced against a more superhuman opposition.
Fighting Style
Luke Cage's minimalistic approach to fighting is evidenced consistently from his earliest fights during his first appearances all the way through The Defenders. There are only three fights in which he really gets his hands dirty and in the mud from what I recall: the time Kilgrave controlled his mind to assault Jessica (a time of which his typical calm state of mind was overridden and thus, shouldn't really count as true aggression from Luke Cage), his final brawl with an amped Diamondback, and the time he fought Madam Gao, a telekinetic. Outside of that, Luke Cage has shown constraint when encountering humans who lack powers.
I realize I said I wouldn't delve too deep into combat skill, but I feel as if this demonstration of his fighting style against a martial artist supports my point even more. Plus, a few extra observations from this fight doesn't hurt either.
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Firstly, like I said, Luke Cage doesn't exert himself for the most part. In this fight, Luke Cage's attacks consist of mostly grabbing the torso or limbs, shoving, and pushing his opponent. This is a very revealing indication that Luke's mindset considers most human beings fragile, which could play against him when facing a more cunning and aggressive foe who isn't superhuman. Only when Danny lays a hand on the young man Cage is trying to protect does he actually get serious. But even when Luke gets serious, his punches are relatively sloppy and easily countered by more high-tier martial artists. Furthermore, not only is Luke's serious side ineffective against such opponents but it only lasts for so long. After attempting to deliver some more winded blows, so to speak, he collects himself once again and lets Danny futility assail him with rapid strikes. Once Danny realizes how futile his strikes are, an opening is created and Cage delivers a relatively restrained punch to put Danny in his place (or so he thought).
I could go on with more examples, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, Cage's lack of effort in regards to his fighting style is going to be a handicap against Oliver, a man who I'll argue could take several blows from Cage if he had to and has multiple options to end this fight.
Strength
The upper limits of MCU Luke Cage's strength is rarely shown within the show. From what I can tell, there are only a few instances which show Mr. Cage struggles in lifting strength and even fewer where the extent of his striking power is truly showcased in full. However, there is one instance that can be fairly concluded as a maximumly powered punch from Luke Cage.
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Given the context of this scene, when Jessica Jones finally unveils to Cage that she was his wife's actual killer, it is safe to say that Luke Cage is very emotionally charged. It is also safe to say that he takes the full extent of his anger out on the bus, given the prescribed circumstance and his yell of extreme frustration (putting it mildly). From what I can observe of Cage's feats, this is most likely the best example of his striking power. If @normanbates wishes to challenge that, then by all means go ahead and do so. Nevertheless, I will be using this feat as a baseline for Luke Cage's striking prowess.
Let's start with the type of bus we're dealing with, so we can understand how durable the bus's exterior was. Firstly, let us note the cap in which the bus driver was wearing:
"MTA"
Doing a quick Google Search of NYC bus types, we can narrow down the list of type of bus this mìs-en-scene took place at.
This bus in particular carries the appearance of a Nova Bus. We can specify even further since only one type of Nova Bus is operated by MTA: the 1996 model (most likely the RTS series).
To this day, Nova Bus manufactures their products with stainless steel. Back in Toronto during 1996, buses were also made of stainless steel during that time period. In 1998, the LF series was also made of the same material. Thusly, I believe it is safe to assume (though I don't typically like to assume) that this bus would have been smithed of stainless steel. I believe that this is a fair conclusion, as stainless steel tends to be quite a durable substance; it'd make sense that such a substance would be chosen to minimize vehicle impact.
Research suggests that, typically, yield strengths and ultimate tensile strengths for stainless steel range from 30,000 psi to 75,000 psi (1, 2, 3).
Originally, I was going to be generous and cut to the median between the two numbers. However, this is a really small dent and I feel like said median would be too generous. That being said, I'd estimate this dent to yield 40,000 psi, though feel free to dispute the math.
Now, we have a basis for the amount of force is behind a full strike from Luke Cage. There's some education for ya :). Let's continue and discuss what is perhaps Mr. Cage's greater advantage: his durability.
Durability
Luke Cage has durability feats far and in between, ranging from punches and handgun fire to Jessica Jones, cars, rocket launches, and a concussive blow or two from Iron Fist. Using my own judgement and examining the various feats he's displayed, I'd have to say that both the rocket launcher scene from his own series and the time he floored Cage when the rest of the Defenders were haunting him from leaving are the two most sturdiest samples of his skin's strength. Both the Iron Fist and the rocket launcher used by Cottonmouth has shown the most destructive power compared to most if not all the options, making great candidates to examine further.
FIM-43 Redeye Missile Launcher
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The beginning of this video starts with Cottonmouth yanking the trigger of a FIM-43 Redeye missile launcher, the predecessor to the more modern day Stinger missiles. According to this educational video, a single missile fired from one of these puppies packs a pound of TNT damage. This information makes it relatively easy to determine how much force this explosion Luke Cage resisted. Let us do the math:
TNT equivalent is a convention for expressing energy, typically used to describe the energy released in an explosion. The "ton of TNT" is a unit of energy defined by that convention to be 4.184 gigajoules,[1] which is the approximate energy released in the detonation of a metric ton (1,000 kilograms or one megagram) of TNT.
-Wikipedia
Using the referenced online conversion calculator (as I realize Wikipedia isn't necessarily the most appropriate source) and some other conversion calculators in addition (pounds to tons), we can determine that approximately .00045 metric tons (one pound) translates to .0018 gigaojoules of energy, or 1,800,000 joules of kinetic energy. To the find the power of that, we simply take the joules we've already calculated and divide it by the amount of seconds that the explosion took place in. Watching it on Netflix, the time in which the explosion ignited up unto the point what I'd assume to be the sound of the shockwave dispersing took about nine seconds. The answer should lead us to about 200,000 Watts.
Of course, I could be wrong about this as the exact minute details of this particular rocket launcher isn't necessarily at play to a tea in this scene. For example, the missile is supposed to travel at Mach 1.7, yet that clearly isn't the case here. Furthermore, I am not a physicist. I can only do the math to the best of my abilities. However, I feel comfortable that this is, at the very least, a good estimation. Admittedly, the flame produced seems bigger than the explosions I've researched, but the additional flame could easily be accounted for whatever propane the kitchen would have stored.
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The "Iron Fist"
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I have to say, it is a far more trickier deal to estimate the energy or power behind Iron Fist's punch once more. It is one thing to research convertible units of energy and put them in a calculator. It is entirely another thing to know all the formulas one needs under his or her belt to do the necessary math or understand them. It is much to my regret that I don't have such equipment under my mental capacity. Luckily for me, I don't necessarily have to, because a real physicist has already figured out the sort of power that comes behind the fist. According to Professor Allain in this fun-time article of his, the energy behind a similarly executed Danny Rand special should equal 3,920 joules and a power of 9,400 Watts. I know that it is a far cry from the previous feat that was discussed, but consider the following:
9,400 Watts is 188 times more powerful than what a world-class fighter could accomplish in a single punch (see previous link for sourcing)
If we were to equate Danny's punch to a missile warhead designed to take down jet fighters and suchlike, would we really expect the likes of Matt Murdock, Danny Rand himself, or even Jessica Jones to survive such power?
Even though this punch seemed to have a greater impact on Luke Cage than the missile (an annoying inconsistency to say the least), Luke Cage did seem relatively unharmed from the assault.
As I said earlier, durability isn't necessarily going to come into play in Arrow's victory, but I felt it necessary to give proper analysis to one of Luke Cage's more highlighted abilities just in case. Needless to say, Oliver Queen isn't going take Mr. Cage down by knuckle or sole of foot. Nor should a regular-tipped arrow suffice in cracking his skin. Not even an explosive arrow would do the trick most likely. However, I strongly believe that Oliver has some options in his quiver that could potentially loophole Mr. Cage's extraordinary epidermis.
Arrow vs. Cyrus Gold - Luke Cage's Strength in Comparison
In Season 2, Episode 8, a Mirakuru-enhanced soldier waltzed into a Queen Consolidated warehouse and stole an industrial centrifuge singlehandedly and carried said centrifuge over the shoulder with minimal difficulty. However, the centrifuge is not what I want to highlight. In this instance, I would like to compare Luke Cage's bus-denting feat and Cyrus Gold's door-breaching feat.
Unfortunately, YouTube's accessibility to the feat remains nonresistant. However, if you click on the following Putlocker link (or you may use any other streaming advertisement you prefer; there are false virus alerts that pop up fyi) and watch from 0:59-1:37, in five separate hits Cyrus earns the right to yell timber to the door before him. If you pay close attention, there are dents in nearly every strike and the aftermath shows the carnage one of them did:
What is this door made out of you ask? Well, I'm glad you asked:
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Expanded reinforced titanium. In comparison to stainless steel, regular titanium yields a tensile strength of nearly three and a half times more than the 40,000 psi that I calculated for Luke Cage, with a yield strength that's only 10,000 psi less than titanium's tensile strength (TS = 138,000 psi/950MPa, YS = 128,000 psi/880 MPa). More than half of most titanium alloys are at 700-1,250 MPa (in comparison, stainless steel's ultimate tensile strength is approximately 500 MPa). Given that this is expanded reinforced titanium, it is more likely that the MPa is 1,000MPa+; it should certainly be on the higher end of the spectrum. The same source says that some high end titanium can have a tensile strength surpassing 1,400 MPa. However, I will use the 128,000 psi yield strength for titanium, for generosity's sake.
Admittedly, the twisted metal in the picture isn't exactly coherent with the damage that shown within the scene. For simplicity's sake, lets stick with the damage shown within the actual break-in rather than the aftermath, since the dents in both Cage's instance and Cyrus Gold's instance should be comparable. Otherwise, the yield or tensile strength would probably be much higher and I don't wish to that math. Though, do not mistake this decision with what may have actually happened. It is equally possible and likely even more possible that the damage in the image is the real damage that took place. I merely lowball my own feat for (a second time, and) simplicity's sake.
That said, one punch was that of slightly over three times the amount of force Luke Cage demonstrated in his greatest punch. That is highly significant, given Oliver's fight with Cyrus Gold:
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Granted, Arrow did not win this fight, but you will notice that he took one punch to the chest and still remained conscious. He was almost ready to rise to his feet as well, albeit slowly. Furthermore, he survived a kick that hurled him into the air like a kickball (the leg is the strongest muscle in the body, thus a kick delivers more force than a punch) and an even more brutal punch thereafter.
The conclusion? After lowballing Cyrus Gold several times, a single strike from Cyrus Gold has been proven to be at least three times more exceptional and effective than Luke Cage's greatest punch. Oliver took one of these punches and wasn't instantly KO'd. Moreover, he took two more of these strikes capable of denting reinforced titanium, yet still wasn't put into a casket. So then, I ask any readers and/or voters out there: how likely is it for Luke Cage, a man who regularly holds back against human beings, rarely acts out in full strength in the first place, and only has a third of the power Cyrus Gold has, supposed to end this fight quickly? Against an opponent who is vastly more skilled than him, speedier by a significant degree, incredibly more tactical, and, as evidenced, should be able to continue fighting with only a minor to mild bruise if Luke Cage tags him in the first place?
Answer: He couldn't.
Ways to Loophole Luke Cage’s Durability
Horse Tranquilizer Arrow
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2,000 milligrams of horse tranquilizer (otherwise known as ketamine). While this certainly isn’t the most revolutionary tactic to defeat Mr. Cage and get around his durability, it is one of the first that springs to mind. Obviously, the outermost skin layer can’t be penetrated by any regular arrowhead; but, that is not the point. It is fair to say that Oliver would initially fire one of his not-so-tricksy arrows and immediately discover the extent of his opponent’s durability and the futility of notching and releasing a horse tranquilizer arrow into this yet-to-be Hero For Hire. It should be pointed out that Luke Cage is not the first bulletproof opponent Oliver has gone face to face against. When Oliver faced the A.T.O.M. face to face in combat, he initially fired a standard arrow at the armor but ceased to do so once he realized how ineffective it was. Likewise and because of this, it is fair to conclude that the same would happen in this occasion.
Instead, the idea would be to close in on Luke Cage, by way of either using his superior combat speed and skill to dance around him or by using diversionary tactics to switch into “stealth mode”, Arrow could inject the arrow into an area of his anatomy that wouldn’t necessarily be the outer layer of his skin. Up the nose, through the mouth or ear canal, or in an area full of cartilage such as the ear would all be great candidates of potential. Granted, not every one of those ideas would necessarily work, but there’s a juicy chance regardless that one of those areas would work. This wouldn’t necessarily be the first or even second action that Oliver takes, but since close quarters combat is one of Arrow’s primary fortees and he could take a hit or two anyways, this idea could certainly be a potential finisher.
It should be noted that Luke Cage is susceptible to gases, as he was taken out for the count by Stick using a like-minded tactic.
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Tear Gas Arrow
A tear gas arrow is a far more simpler and safer approach than going the CQC approach. The idea is essentially the same: take Luke Cage out via “chemical warfare”. This version of “chemical warfare”, tear gas, is much more effective than what television or cinema would lead you to believe. “The key active ingredient, called 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrate, is a chemical that activates a large amount of pain receptors in the eyes and respiratory system by irritating the membranes.”
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I recommend watching the full video, but the gist of it is that successfully firing a tear gas arrow even near Luke Cage would be advantageous towards Oliver in both blinding his contender and wreaking havoc on his contender’s ability to breathe, forcing him to desperately gasp for air. Because the tear gas functions in both of these capacities, Cage’s focus would shift towards his own pain and functioning and not the archer that stands before him, giving Oliver a chance to freely work on other options to put him down without resistance. That is, if we don’t count groping on the floor an incapacitation as is.
Cable Net Arrows
Back in the ol’ Civil Wars days, a wild horse would be captured by multiple wranglers surrounding the horse, who’d lasso his neck and limbs and pull from all sides. This would immobilize the creature’s ability to resist and pull because the tension would be so strong on all sides that wiggle room wouldn’t be afforded to the stallion. Any limb he tried to pull with couldn’t be enough to shake him free, because his other limbs that he’d need to truly give a strong enough effort would be incapacitated at the same time. A similar concept would apply here as well.
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In this instance, Arrow has thirty seconds of glorified Spidey-like fame, utilizing his grappling arrows to swing all around the damaged framework of an entire skyscraper-like building and his cable net arrows to deploy cable ends that pull the separating building structure together. While I’m sure I could spend a good many hours and a headache researching the physics of this, I don’t believe I particularly need to prove that the strength required to hold an entire large-scale building like this together is something out of Luke Cage’s depth. Not that it’s really necessary to show, but we’ve seen Cage struggling to lift a piece of fallen corbel off a car before, so an entire foundation that weighs quite a bit more than just a small piece of a foundation is certainly going to be too much for Cage to handle.
That said, the aforementioned “horse-catching” tactic could easily be applied with these cable net arrows that are proven to be too strong for Cage. By gaining a vantage point, Oliver could place his shot at his back or ankle, launching Luke Cage’s body mass into the air when the two cable ends hit their mark on the ceiling and yank. In quick succession, Oliver could fire twop more cable net arrows at his tankish opponent’s hands, preventing him from freeing himself. Essentially, Oliver would create a spider of webs of cable nets fitted with a titanium grip and tensile strength, neutralizing his mobility in suspended air.
Oliver’s bow, on more than one occasion, has shown the ability to unleash a barrage of flares meant to surprise and distract an overwhelming opposition. Discharging these could be used to allow Oliver to escape to the shadows, so that he might employ a stealth tactic.
Flash Bang Arrow
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Same idea, only this would only blind and deafen Luke Cage, temporarily.
@normanbates Would also just like to apologize for making you wait. I was going to post two days ago but due to "technical difficulties" a portion of my post's content was deleted.
No need for a bio, as I’m most If not all people on the vine are familiar with him and his backstory. I would to address, that I usually open a CaV displaying a variety of feats and attributes in regards to a specific ability for the character I’m representing, but since you opened up with something rather unorthodox I’ll do it that way and have my opener so that it focuses on your statements and rebuttals rather than what I traditionally do :)
Luke Cage's minimalistic approach to fighting is evidenced consistently from his earliest fights during his first appearances all the way through The Defenders. There are only three fights in which he really gets his hands dirty and in the mud from what I recall: the time Kilgrave controlled his mind to assault Jessica (a time of which his typical calm state of mind was overridden and thus, shouldn't really count as true aggression from Luke Cage), his final brawl with an amped Diamondback, and the time he fought Madam Gao, a telekinetic. Outside of that, Luke Cage has shown constraint when encountering humans who lack powers.
There’s the time he fought Danny Rand:
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And if Danny hadn’t moved in time, this punch would’ve killed him:
Here, Luke doesn't really make much of any real effort in his fight against drunkards; the only exception might be when every one of them pig-piled on top of Luke Cage, but even so Cage did little more than jerk his body upright and his arms back. For the most part, Luke shows the upmost "chill factor" against his attackers in this fight. Standing still and loosely slapping his attacker with the very hand that tried to harm him,shuffling a charging man like he was an empty egg carton,and rolling his eyes after an attacker clocks him on the uptown part of his head - then grabbing the top of his head and slamming it against his knee with little force shows very little movement on his part. The point is, he doesn't exert himself very much. This might seem like a praise to his ability to soak up damage with nonexistent difficulty and to dispatch foes with nearly equal ease, but at the same against more full-fledged, versatile, and tactical fighters such as Oliver Queen, this would play against Luke's favor by allowing Oliver more time to come up with a plan to defeat the Harlem beast.
The “chill factor” won’t’ really come into play in this fight, because Luke will know to take this fight serious because of the prior knowledge of Ollie stated in the OP, and his past experiences with other martial artists via Black Sky. Murakami, Danny, Diamondback, Sowande, etc.
Firstly, like I said, Luke Cage doesn't exert himself for the most part. In this fight, Luke Cage's attacks consist of mostly grabbing the torso or limbs, shoving, and pushing his opponent. This is a very revealing indication that Luke's mindset considers most human beings fragile, which could play against him when facing a more cunning and aggressive foe who isn't superhuman. Only when Danny lays a hand on the young man Cage is trying to protect does he actually get serious. But even when Luke gets serious, his punches are relatively sloppy and easily countered by more high-tier martial artists. Furthermore, not only is Luke's serious side ineffective against such opponents but it only lasts for so long. After attempting to deliver some more winded blows, so to speak, he collects himself once again and lets Danny futility assail him with rapid strikes. Once Danny realizes how futile his strikes are, an opening is created and Cage delivers a relatively restrained punch to put Danny in his place (or so he thought).
I could go on with more examples, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, Cage's lack of effort in regards to his fighting style is going to be a handicap against Oliver, a man who I'll argue could take several blows from Cage if he had to and has multiple options to end this fight.
I must point out that Luke didn’t exert himself because of the circumstances regarding the scenario. One of which, was because he didn’t know who Danny Rand was and wasn’t trying to kill him, only subdue and restrain him. It was only the lack of knowledge and coming unprepared that got the best of him. Meanwhile, Luke has prior knowledge on Ollie to a good extent might I add and won’t kill him but also won’t be afraid to get his hands dirty. Also, Ollie isn’t going to tank punches from Luke (which I’ll explain later on in my post).
Given the context of this scene, when Jessica Jones finally unveils to Cage that she was his wife's actual killer, it is safe to say that Luke Cage is very emotionally charged. It is also safe to say that he takes the full extent of his anger out on the bus, given the prescribed circumstance and his yell of extreme frustration (putting it mildly). From what I can observe of Cage's feats, this is most likely the best example of his striking power. If @normanbates wishes to challenge that, then by all means go ahead and do so. Nevertheless, I will be using this feat as a baseline for Luke Cage's striking prowess.
He did punch a hole in a beer keg in Defenders and I did post a gif showing him caving in an electrical box, but fair enough.
Let's start with the type of bus we're dealing with, so we can understand how durable the bus's exterior was. Firstly, let us note the cap in which the bus driver was wearing:
Lol
I have to say, it is a far more trickier deal to estimate the energy or power behind Iron Fist's punch once more. It is one thing to research convertible units of energy and put them in a calculator. It is entirely another thing to know all the formulas one needs under his or her belt to do the necessary math or understand them. It is much to my regret that I don't have such equipment under my mental capacity. Luckily for me, I don't necessarily have to, because a real physicist has already figured out the sort of power that comes behind the fist. According to Professor Allain in this fun-time article of his, the energy behind a similarly executed Danny Rand special should equal 3,920 joules and a power of 9,400 Watts. I know that it is a far cry from the previous feat that was discussed, but consider the following:
9,400 Watts is 188 times more powerful than what a world-class fighter could accomplish in a single punch (see previous link for sourcing)
If we were to equate Danny's punch to a missile warhead designed to take down jet fighters and suchlike, would we really expect the likes of Matt Murdock, Danny Rand himself, or even Jessica Jones to survive such power?
Even though this punch seemed to have a greater impact on Luke Cage than the missile (an annoying inconsistency to say the least), Luke Cage did seem relatively unharmed from the assault.
As I said earlier, durability isn't necessarily going to come into play in Arrow's victory, but I felt it necessary to give proper analysis to one of Luke Cage's more highlighted abilities just in case. Needless to say, Oliver Queen isn't going take Mr. Cage down by knuckle or sole of foot. Nor should a regular-tipped arrow suffice in cracking his skin. Not even an explosive arrow would do the trick most likely. However, I strongly believe that Oliver has some options in his quiver that could potentially loophole Mr. Cage's extraordinary epidermis.
I’ll probably regret saying this, but one could argue Luke wasn’t KO’d by the missile but rather the building collapsing on him. Luke being unharmed from the assault by Danny was rather a high end durability feat.
Granted, Arrow did not win this fight, but you will notice that he took one punch to the chest and still remained conscious. He was almost ready to rise to his feet as well, albeit slowly. Furthermore, he survived a kick that hurled him into the air like a kickball (the leg is the strongest muscle in the body, thus a kick delivers more force than a punch) and an even more brutal punch thereafter.
The conclusion? After lowballing Cyrus Gold several times, a single strike from Cyrus Gold has been proven to be at least three times more exceptional and effective than Luke Cage's greatest punch. Oliver took one of these punches and wasn't instantly KO'd. Moreover, he took two more of these strikes capable of denting reinforced titanium, yet still wasn't put into a casket. So then, I ask any readers and/or voters out there: how likely is it for Luke Cage, a man who regularly holds back against human beings, rarely acts out in full strength in the first place, and only has a third of the power Cyrus Gold has, supposed to end this fight quickly? Against an opponent who is vastly more skilled than him, speedier by a significant degree, incredibly more tactical, and, as evidenced, should be able to continue fighting with only a minor to mild bruise if Luke Cage tags him in the first place?
Okay, so here’s my thing with “the tanking punches from Cyrus and Mirakuru users” feats along with a few others that are similar but not to be brought up because they aren’t being discussed. I’d argue that this feat was PIS if anything, and solely occurred because sake of the plot and is inconsistent. Why might you ask? Because Cyrus in "The Scientist" (or his first appearance) killed a QC guard and sent him flying, and a few scientists instantly with a single punch, and there's no evidence what so ever that Oliver is enhanced or any different than any regular human that appeared on the show, besides being more skilled and being in athletic shape. Moreover, Ollie has a history of more than frequently being staggered, hurt, and even KO’d by the lesser of opponents. I’ll proceed with a few examples just to give you a taste of what I’m talking about:
During one of his season 1 fights with Malcom Merlyn, he displays pain and disorientation after being subject to many of Merlyn’s blows and the fight even ends with Oliver being kicked into oblivion:
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He even gets this treatment from Ted Grant aka Wildcat, in their first fight:
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In his fight with Ra’s Al Ghul or leader of the League of Assassins, he receives multiple blows a lot of which are clearly devastating and one even leaves him completely dazed:
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There are far more examples, but you get point. Basically what I’m trying to say, is this feat along with a few others (not to be discussed as they play no role in being relevant here) doesn’t align with his more frequent ones and shouldn’t be used for that matter.
Also, Luke will be holding back in this fight, but not as much as you make it out to be. His attitude will be akin to of his when he was fighting Elektra, Diamondback, and the restaurant scene in Defenders. And I agree whole heartily that Oliver is both vastly skilled and faster than Cage, however that doesn’t mean he won’t tag him at least ONCE.
One of the few instances to support my claim will be when Luke successfully telegraphed and tagged high-tier master martial artist, Danny Rand multiple times in mid-combat during their first encounter:
He does the same to Mirakami, another master martial artist and even disarms him:
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Furthermore, he manages to tag Black Sky Elektra, who’s as skilled as Oliver, if not more by a good margin, and certainly faster than him too despite being under the effects of Stick's KO gas:
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You may be asking yourself: What’s tagging him once going to do? Tagging him once whether it’d be from a punch, or Cage grabbing ahold of him will most certainly floor, and daze, or KO Oliver. Furthermore, this could also give Cage the opportunity to ragdoll or even put Oliver in a chokehold, something rather unorthodox but not unlike Cage to do.
Instead, the idea would be to close in on Luke Cage, by way of either using his superior combat speed and skill to dance around him or by using diversionary tactics to switch into “stealth mode”, Arrow could inject the arrow into an area of his anatomy that wouldn’t necessarily be the outer layer of his skin. Up the nose, through the mouth or ear canal, or in an area full of cartilage such as the ear would all be great candidates of potential. Granted, not every one of those ideas would necessarily work, but there’s a juicy chance regardless that one of those areas would work. This wouldn’t necessarily be the first or even second action that Oliver takes, but since close quarters combat is one of Arrow’s primary fortees and he could take a hit or two anyways, this idea could certainly be a potential finisher.
It should be noted that Luke Cage is susceptible to gases, as he was taken out for the count by Stick using a like-minded tactic.
As you stated before, there’s little to no chance such a strategy would work, as Luke is not just going to stand there and let Oliver do his worst via inserting Horse Tranquilizer into places in his body. Ollie doing that, would require him to coordinate and stand still to make sure the arrow can be efficiently inserted giving Cage time to tag him. I would also like to address and counter where you said Luke is susceptible to gases. The only reason he was taken out by Stick, was because Stick had the element of surprise by being Cage’s ally at the time, so Luke had his guard down. Oliver is no ally to Cage in this scenario, so if anything he’ll be on alert to anything Oliver tries or attempts to do.
I recommend watching the full video, but the gist of it is that successfully firing a tear gas arrow even near Luke Cage would be advantageous towards Oliver in both blinding his contender and wreaking havoc on his contender’s ability to breathe, forcing him to desperately gasp for air. Because the tear gas functions in both of these capacities, Cage’s focus would shift towards his own pain and functioning and not the archer that stands before him, giving Oliver a chance to freely work on other options to put him down without resistance. That is, if we don’t count groping on the floor an incapacitation as is.
If a tear gas arrow causes Cage that much pain, why wouldn’t he just remove the arrow and chuck it so it’s not within the area? I mean it wouldn’t be his first reaction, but it’s not out of the realm of logic.
In this instance, Arrow has thirty seconds of glorified Spidey-like fame, utilizing his grappling arrows to swing all around the damaged framework of an entire skyscraper-like building and his cable net arrows to deploy cable ends that pull the separating building structure together. While I’m sure I could spend a good many hours and a headache researching the physics of this, I don’t believe I particularly need to prove that the strength required to hold an entire large-scale building like this together is something out of Luke Cage’s depth
Your video didn’t load :P
Not that it’s really necessary to show, but we’ve seen Cage struggling to lift a piece of fallen corbel off a car before, so an entire foundation that weighs quite a bit more than just a small piece of a foundation is certainly going to be too much for Cage to handle.
Struggling is a bit exaggerated. He strained a bit, yes but once he lifted the corbel off the car he was resuming just fine. Even if “struggling” is the case, keep in mind that it was at least twice his size.
That said, the aforementioned “horse-catching” tactic could easily be applied with these cable net arrows that are proven to be too strong for Cage. By gaining a vantage point, Oliver could place his shot at his back or ankle, launching Luke Cage’s body mass into the air when the two cable ends hit their mark on the ceiling and yank. In quick succession, Oliver could fire twop more cable net arrows at his tankish opponent’s hands, preventing him from freeing himself. Essentially, Oliver would create a spider of webs of cable nets fitted with a titanium grip and tensile strength, neutralizing his mobility in suspended air.
I’m confused to see how this’ll work. How exactly is Cage going to launch in the air, if the arrows are being shot at his “ankle” or “back”, only for the cable ends to hit the ceiling and yank? Wouldn’t that mean Oliver would have to shoot two set of two cable net arrows to achieve such a goal? I’m saying this because when his Cable net arrows are projected and hit a target, don’t they only hit one spot and that’s it? Also, I don’t see the cable net-hand plan working, as he broke out of handcuffs and a heavy set of chains when he was detained by the police in his own show without a problem (Luke CageEp 11 or 12)
Even an explosive arrow at its highest yield would probably fail to knockout Luke Cage, though I’d argue it could still impact and hurt Cage significantly enough to weaken him.
I don’t see that working:
He didn't even budge when this explosion occurred, and this same explosion sent superhuman, Jessica Jones flying back twenty feet.
That said, even though an explosive arrow in of itself would probably fall short in winning the match, Arrow could still use an explosive arrow to “bring the house down” on Luke Cage. Literally. Environmental takedowns are not something Oliver Queen is unaccustomed to, exampled as such in his final fight with Cyrus Gold.
Yes, but would it actually work? The only time, he was knocked out by something like this is when Cottonmouth attempted to kill Cage with an RPG, but that was an entire building collapsing on Cage rather than chunks of debris. And by feats, Cage is superior to Cyrus in terms of blunt force.
Bulletproof Shield Arrow
Releases a bulletproof cloth that attaches to surfaces by the four corners. This could also be used to wrap around and temporarily blind Luke Cage if fired at his face.
Couldn’t he just pry it off, and remove it? Nothing says otherwise.
Conclusion
Oliver is faster, more skilled, and more equipped. However, that doesn’t mean Cage doesn’t have ways to counter his equipment, as discussed above and Oliver being faster and more skilled doesn’t he can’t be tagged as I shown Cage has the means to do so.
Cage can certainly floor or even KO Oliver with a well-placed strike. Furthermore, he can do something rather unorthodox like putting him in a choke-hold, in hopes of putting him to sleep which Oliver can’t escape.
Oliver can't put him down with any type of blunt force, and Luke is certainly not going to just stand there while Oliver attempts to inject him with some type of drug.
I’m missing something else, but this should do for now
Initial thoughts
Overall, I don’t think Oliver has any efficient way of putting down Cage. Yeah, there’s his trick arrows, cable net arrows, explosive arrows, and etc. But, I know for a fact that Oliver only carries 24 arrows in his quiver, and he has at least 17 different arrows in this fight as stated in the OP. So that means, he only has 2 of each, if not 1 and once he exhausts those, there’s not much he can do. Even with all these arrows or some, and a substantial amount of knowledge he still tried to fight up close or didn’t keep that of range with Mirakuru users such as Cyrus Gold (even in their second encounter) and Slade Wilson (same with him) utilizing normal arrows and even H2H combat before resorting to different types of arrows and tactics which will be a bad idea as stated above. I would also like to point out, even though Oliver knows Cage is superhumanly durable, he has to know to what extent. He usually and will most likely test his opponent or their durability by firing a few normal arrows at an opponent while closing the distance and eventually resorting to CQC, which’ll be his downfall. I would also like to point out, while Cage doesn’t utilize any type of CQC skill against normal humans he did in his fight with Diamondback utilizing boxing and grappling techniques so I don’t see why he wouldn’t do the same in this fight. I also, don’t see Ollie putting down Cage with anything in terms of blunt of force, as he doesn’t have the output to do so. Not to lowball or anything, but I don’t see why but I don’t see why Ollie wouldn’t break his hands punching Cage as regular humans did so.
@fetts: It's up :) Sorry I didn't have mine up any sooner, I was really busy earlier this week and had to go out of town last weekend. I was supposed to have mine's up last Monday.
@jsdoctor: @jayfreeman: Dude I am so sorry about this! I should have at least updated you a while ago. I'm in college now, so things have kept me preoccupied quite a bit lately. I'll TRY to have a response up this weekend, but if it doesn't happen by this weekend... I dunno.
And if Danny hadn’t moved in time, this punch would’ve killed him:
I have already discussed this in greater detail previously, but let’s be honest - even though Luke Cage was more enraged in this strike than his usual humble self, the audience knows very well at this point in the Netflix MCU narrative that Luke Cage is no killer. Did it bend metal in a junction box? Yes. But it isn’t likely that Luke Cage’s intent was to kill him, simply because he laid a privileged, manicured hand on the kid Mr. Cage was trying to protect. It is more likely that even in his rage, Luke Cage was holding on to some restraint and was aiming to cripple Danny instead.
Even still, this is just one punch out of many that were exchanged in this whole fight. It’s a toothpick to stand on to support the hypothesis that Luke Cage yields a lot of effort in his fights, because literally every other moment in this fight demonstrates the exact opposite.
The “chill factor” won’t’ really come into play in this fight, because Luke will know to take this fight serious because of the prior knowledge of Ollie stated in the OP, and his past experiences with other martial artists via Black Sky. Murakami, Danny, Diamondback, Sowande, etc.
You say that chill factor won’t apply, but later on you say that it does but just not to the extent I believe it will be. Pardon my confusion, but may I ask what you mean more specifically?
Let’s take a look at those fights shall we?
Luke Cage vs. Black Sky
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This fight was extremely fleeting, so I’ll try to keep my response in due accordance. There were only three strikes on Luke Cage’s part within this bout. At first glimpse, it’s easy to slap conclusions on the presentation and assume Cage was trying to seriously hurt Elektra, simply based on Luke Cage’s facial expressions. However, upon a keener observation, a viewer can spot that despite Cage’s seemingly angered state, his strikes make indications that he is holding back regardless. The first and second strikes demonstrate deflections of Elektra’s swords, not full-blown swings at her. A wiser combatant with Cage’s unparalleled skin probably would tanked the slashes and try to attack her person more directly, which really speaks to Luke Cage’s relative inexperience as a fighter in my opinion. Furthermore, it also speaks to the fact that Luke Cage can, indeed, be enraged and also restrained at the same time.
The final “blow” is followed by a tackle into the wall (or at least a futile attempt to do so), which would have probably knocked the wind out of Elektra’s abdomen-area and maybe cause minor bruising at best.
Luke Cage vs. Madam Gao
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Likewise, this fight is also similarly short, and isn’t really in need of much dissection. And while it wouldn’t be fair for me to chastise Luke Cage for restraining himself to a medium-or-so speed in his advance against an elderly lady, it does enhance the quantity of showings where Luke Cage does exercise restraint.
Luke Cage vs. Murakami
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I’ll be fair here: Luke Cage was noticeably more aggressive in his style here, executing an uppercut that launched Murakami a couple feet away and thereafter executing a strike that certainly would have pained Murakami given the shattered concrete. Nevertheless, restrained can be noted even in this fight, though less restraint there may be. Namely, Luke Cage has launched far more force-resistant foes (namely Diamondback) to a much farther distance in the past. This rocketing of Murakami displayed here pales in comparison to what Luke Cage can truly accomplish with his strength. Even with the lesser restraint in consideration, Murakami was able to recover relatively easily. How much more so if Oliver Queen, a notably more durable opponent, were in Murakami’s shoes in his stead?
Luke Cage vs. Sowande
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I’m half surprised that you bring this fight up, as if anything it works towards my favor than yours. I will grant you, there is one strike that looks like it could have taken Sowande’s head off if he didn’t duck. I will grant you that completely; however, looks can be deceiving. As shown several times throughout the show, Luke Cage’s strength is almost always restrained whether it looks as if that is the case or not. In my opinion, that is the only logical conclusion given the nature of his character, which I’ll get into more detail in but a moment.
However, as I stated previously, the example of this fight serves against you moreso than it does me. Fairly consistently, The Defenders has shown that Luke Cage is susceptible to properly executed strikes from master martial arts - staggering in many cases. This was shown in his fight with Murakami and Elektra (though to be fair, I think it’s fairly obviously Elektra is enhanced in this series), but there isn’t a fight that shows this more explicitly than this fight here. By my count, there was approximately nine strikes in that fight that clearly had some sort of effect on Luke Cage, one of which clearly pushed Luke Cage a sizable distance into the street, another that staggered him several steps, and a kick that clearly sent him tumbling and rolling. It’s hard to determine whether instances like these should be taken seriously, given that it is sort of illogical; but, at the same time, it is something to remark as consistent.
Luke Cage vs. Diamondback
In the beginning of this fight, Diamondback taunted Luke Cage twice, insulting Luke Cage’s hitting ability. Soon after, Cage even tried to calm him before, in his own words, “he really had to hurt” him. Admittedly, as the fight progressed, I’d judge that Luke Cage was fighting more seriously; albeit not his best, but seriously and close enough to his best. The way I interrupt his final knockout punch was that he gave everything he had left in its strength, which is impressive given the beating he had just received from Diamondback. Nevertheless, I think it can be agreed that Luke Cage, while serious, isn’t aggressive as the likes of some of the Oliver’s opponents Oliver has faced, as there were clearly a couple of openings Luke Cage had that he could have taken advantage of, but didn’t and allowed Diamondback to gather himself.
Let’s be honest though, Luke Cage has to hold back against his foes. The entirety of his show clearly displays his intrinsic desire to help people and then some. The man’s a saint. He was a church-going stud when he was but a wee lil lad. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but his attitude toward people to help and hurt minimalistically can probably be expressed at least once every twenty minutes in each episode. He is not a killer. You know this, I know this, everybody knows this. The point I make with this is that Oliver Queen has fought killers, many times on many different occasions - some of which, as demonstrated, are much stronger in comparison to Luke Cage. I will address your counter to this soon enough, but in laymen’s terms:
Foe with superior superhuman strength with killer intent >>> Foe with inferior superhuman strength without killer intent.
I must point out that Luke didn’t exert himself because of the circumstances regarding the scenario. One of which, was because he didn’t know who Danny Rand was and wasn’t trying to kill him, only subdue and restrain him. It was only the lack of knowledge and coming unprepared that got the best of him. Meanwhile, Luke has prior knowledge on Ollie to a good extent might I add and won’t kill him but also won’t be afraid to get his hands dirty. Also, Ollie isn’t going to tank punches from Luke (which I’ll explain later on in my post).
Is there ever really a circumstance where Luke Cage is actually trying to kill somebody? I know that’s not what you mean, but “subduing and restraining” (though I’m not really sure restraining was Luke Cage’s objective) falls under a line of a habitual non-lethal course of action that Luke Cage takes. Even though he was, indeed, unexpectant of Danny’s Iron Fist in the conclusion of the fight, it’s beside the point.
And the point you make about Cage’s prior knowledge isn’t too much of a threat. Even if we were to consider your point and come into agreement that Luke Cage would enter the arena with a mindset to break Oliver Queen into two as best he can without breaking him permanently, the simple matter of the fact is that Oliver has faced some seriously more competent and stronger foes than Luke Cage. Granted, there are a great deal of inconsistencies that have plagued the show in the past. Cyrus Gold, Damian Darhk, Vandal Savage, Eobard Thawne, Barry Allen (with killer intent), Dominators, and Overgirl are among the most prominent that have demonstrated more adeptability in fighting skill and superiority in strength or other other powers.
Okay, so here’s my thing with “the tanking punches from Cyrus and Mirakuru users” feats along with a few others that are similar but not to be brought up because they aren’t being discussed. I’d argue that this feat was PIS if anything, and solely occurred because sake of the plot and is inconsistent. Why might you ask? Because Cyrus in "The Scientist" (or his first appearance) killed a QC guard and sent him flying, and a few scientists instantly with a single punch, and there's no evidence what so ever that Oliver is enhanced or any different than any regular human that appeared on the show, besides being more skilled and being in athletic shape. Moreover, Ollie has a history of more than frequently being staggered, hurt, and even KO’d by the lesser of opponents. I’ll proceed with a few examples just to give you a taste of what I’m talking about:
I’m just going to skip to this part of your rebuttal for a moment, since we’re on the subject. I apologize if this at all sounds reprimanding, cause that is not my goal, but to say that Oliver has little to no evidence to suggest that he isn’t anything beyond an ordinary human being is… Absurdity. Don’t get me wrong, as you suggest paragraphs later, there are inconsistencies in the show. Completely true. Nevertheless, if there is any one thing that the show has managed to maintain a high degree of consistency on, it’s that Oliver Queen is a complete force of nature. I’ll even go as far to say that this was evidenced in Oliver’s very first scene in the entire show. No “ordinary man” would ever be able to defeat or last as nearly as well as Oliver Queen has against the laundry list of supervillains just previously mentioned, or other companions of the less civilized kind. I could show impossible feats of accuracy, such as sniping gasoline’d tinder from miles away on a cliffside with a strong, elevated seaside breeze to compensate for. I could pull up both television and comic panels of the Arrow dodging bullets literally after they’re fired. I could show an incredible feat of fighting strategy in which he literally outmaneuvers, predicts, and successfully tags the Scarlet Speedster, a man who could move three times the speed of sound at that point. I could bring up combat feats of the Hood stunning and even disarming Vandal Savage, a man with thousands of years of combat experience and a powerhouse who was single-handedly a threat to Flash, Arrow, Diggle, Speedy, Black Canary, Hawkman, and Hawkgirl. I could showcase a feat of the vigilante bracing against a fired grenade from a grenade launcher, or snapping a man’s neck with ease (despite Barry Allen’s obvious implication that it’s humanly impossible). Do any of these feats sound like they’re easily accomplished?
Of course, I could bring up those feats. But then again, even in your attempt to lowball Oliver Queen into something that he is not, you’ve still demonstrated that Oliver Queen’s physicality is definitely above that of a normal man’s.
During one of his season 1 fights with Malcom Merlyn, he displays pain and disorientation after being subject to many of Merlyn’s blows and the fight even ends with Oliver being kicked into oblivion:
Keep in mind that Malcolm Merlyn himself is a man of peak human stature (and that not by real world standards). In the same fight you just posted, Malcolm Merlyn split his recurve bow with his bare hand, which is made out of a strong wood designed to handle a lot of stress and drawback. Not only that, but he throws an arrow with enough force to break glass that was probably designed with the same integrity of glass you find in museum displays.
He even gets this treatment from Ted Grant aka Wildcat, in their first fight:
Admittedly, there’s nothing here to really mark the Arrow as a supreme physical specimen; but what you interpret as pain, I personally interpret as frustration.
In his fight with Ra’s Al Ghul or leader of the League of Assassins, he receives multiple blows a lot of which are clearly devastating and one even leaves him completely dazed:
Firstly, Ra’s al Ghul has struck with so much speed and force that he’s cleaved a sword in half.
Secondly, this took place immediately after Oliver Queen free-climbed a mountainside that dwarfs what looks to be mountains from the Himalayan mountain range.
Undoubtedly, after what was probably at least twenty-four hours of climbing, if not more, his body surely would have aching and tired. The fact that he even so much as stood up so straight after embarking on a climb that makes him look like an ant to a Toyota Tundra on top of another Toyota Tundra, making thousands of hand grabs over rocky terrain, pulling and hoisting his body up just as much with no sleep, never stopping to consume food rations given he clearly has none on hand, slipping every now and then, all under extreme conditions of cold and piercing wind, all at a high altitude with decreased blood flow and oxygen… I imagine he was a little tired.
I won’t even bring up the fact that he survived that fall… Gosh, Season Three was a mess.
There are far more examples, but you get point. Basically what I’m trying to say, is this feat along with a few others (not to be discussed as they play no role in being relevant here) doesn’t align with his more frequent ones and shouldn’t be used for that matter.
Even though I’ve already addressed this and mentioned that there are, indeed, a good number of inconsistencies in the show, Oliver Queen consistently displays a variety of high-end feats rather than low ones. The feats that the Arrow has performed could easily translate into comic-tier quality.
Despite the lowballing of the character, I believe I can read your point: If Luke Cage tagged Oliver, it’d hurt. That’s fine. I can concur with that analysis if that is, indeed, the point. I don't think it was ever really my own point that Luke Cage couldn't hurt Oliver. But, I am sure that it is well-established that given Oliver Queen’s unnatural physique, it is unsurprising that a hit from Luke Cage would not be detrimental to Oliver’s health. If Murakami was a sack of potatoes, Oliver would be a sack of granite bricks twice the size. If Cyrus Gold was Mr. T, than Luke Cage would be Josh Duhamel. We’ve seen characters, with durability feats that are either non-existent or pale in comparison to Oliver’s durability, take strikes from Luke Cage and remain relatively unscathed or unharmed. And, as my previous post thoroughly demonstrated, Oliver Queen has survived heavier hitters.
To ice that slice, here are some extra durability feats in case you’re not entirely convinced:
I’ll probably regret saying this, but one could argue Luke wasn’t KO’d by the missile but rather the building collapsing on him. Luke being unharmed from the assault by Danny was rather a high end durability feat.
If that’s the case, then that’d be an even worse durability feat than I gave him credit for. That’d mean that a falling brick knocked out his noggin’ and the rest just trapped him.
I would say he took it like a champ, but I honestly doubt he didn’t feel a degree of pain there.
One of the few instances to support my claim will be when Luke successfully telegraphed and tagged high-tier master martial artist, Danny Rand multiple times in mid-combat during their first encounter:
I wouldn’t really consider that third .gif a “telegraph”, but I see your point.
He does the same to Mirakami, another master martial artist and even disarms him:
To clarify, he really only did so once when he disarmed him. Not did so and disarmed him thereafter. Sorry to be Mr. Technical.
Furthermore, he manages to tag Black Sky Elektra, who’s as skilled as Oliver, if not more by a good margin, and certainly faster than him too despite being under the effects of Stick's KO gas:
Firstly, Oliver has a slew of combat feats that are more plentiful and quality than Black Sky’s. Secondly, your video link doesn’t work, but I will personally guarantee that anything Black Sky has, Oliver can do better. Thirdly, to me, it seems like Luke Cage just came out of the effects of Stick’s special concoction.
You may be asking yourself: What’s tagging him once going to do? Tagging him once whether it’d be from a punch, or Cage grabbing ahold of him will most certainly floor, and daze, or KO Oliver. Furthermore, this could also give Cage the opportunity to ragdoll or even put Oliver in a chokehold, something rather unorthodox but not unlike Cage to do.
Several things I want to address with these videos, mi amigo.
First order of business is, to reiterate, I think I’ve more than proven at this point that Oliver’s body has gone through a considerable amount of greater punishment than Luke Cage dishes out on a regular basis. While a blow would hurt, Arrow is certainly more than capable of recovering, considering Luke Cage’s track record with less durable opponents.
Second business of order is to point out that most, if not all of these combatants you present are not on Oliver’s skill-level. Danny Rand may be the “Immortal Iron Fist”, but he has a lot of character flaws including lack of discipline and self-control that makes him a less impressive combatant than you may realize. Murakami has few feats, and while he is obviously not canon fodder and knows his craft, he is a leader of The Hand’s faction in Japan. This seems to indicate he lets his underlings get their hands dirty rather than he himself more often than not. Likewise, Sowande is in a similar position. It is not my intention to undersell these two, as they are clearly skilled (Sowande can stop a man’s heart; Murakami killed a bear by himself in close combat), but merely that despite their longevity, they themselves don’t seem to have as much combat experience as Oliver or just about any of Oliver's routine “big bosses”. The only one who could arguably be as more skilled is Black Sky, given she has taken on the Defenders single-handedly. Even still, the Arrow has taken on and, at least on half the occasions, beaten foes that would mop the floor with the Defenders (ex. Reverse Flash, Flash, and Damian Darhk - who Oliver claimed in the following season he could have killed multiple different ways had he not held back). To conclude the point, if it hasn’t been demonstrated enough already, Oliver Queen is on an entirely different skill level than nearly everybody Luke Cage has come across. While it’s not impossible for Luke Cage to telegraph Oliver, he’d find himself at new heights of difficulty trying to replicate what he’s done to lesser combatants.
The third and final point of business is, the more you offer Luke Cage’s fights against skilled opponents, the more trouble-free I find it to believe that Oliver wouldn’t have such a difficult time facing Luke Cage in hand to hand combat. Even though, on paper, it really shouldn’t make sense, given that Luke Cage has shrugged off bullets and missile launchers... The simple matter of the fact is that Luke Cage has all-too-often gotten himself physically effected by properly executed strikes from master martial artists. Between both of his fights with Murakami, Elektra, and especiallySowande, all too easily he is consistently getting stung, pained, and slapped and finds himself stumbling and tumbling. There has to be at least a dozen strikes that could be pointed out having some sort of a harmful effect on him. If this is indeed the case, how much more likely is it that the Arrow is going to be able to successfully bat Luke Cage away, up and down? A sharp-shooting legend who can slice stone in half with his bow and physically harm master swordsman Slade Wilson through his top-notch bulletproof armor?
As you stated before, there’s little to no chance such a strategy would work, as Luke is not just going to stand there and let Oliver do his worst via inserting Horse Tranquilizer into places in his body. Ollie doing that, would require him to coordinate and stand still to make sure the arrow can be efficiently inserted giving Cage time to tag him. I would also like to address and counter where you said Luke is susceptible to gases. The only reason he was taken out by Stick, was because Stick had the element of surprise by being Cage’s ally at the time, so Luke had his guard down. Oliver is no ally to Cage in this scenario, so if anything he’ll be on alert to anything Oliver tries or attempts to do.
Ollie doesn’t have to play nursemaid with Luke Cage. He is precise and fast enough to be able to jam it into an aforementioned body part, mid-combat. It wouldn’t necessarily be his first tactic, and hell, he may even get tagged if it didn’t work and Luke inner layer of skin is bulletproof as well. But since we, as an audience, have no way of discerning whether it would or wouldn’t work, it is simply possible that it could.
Also, my statement doesn’t ring untrue. He may have indeed been caught off guard at that moment, but Stick didn’t have the methods of delivery that Oliver has.
If a tear gas arrow causes Cage that much pain, why wouldn’t he just remove the arrow and chuck it so it’s not within the area? I mean it wouldn’t be his first reaction, but it’s not out of the realm of logic.
Maybe he could, but that’s assuming Oliver wouldn’t be on top of and all around him by that point. Even still, the purpose of the tear gas arrow would be complete and it would be successfully administered into Luke Cage’s system. As you say, he wouldn’t react to it immediately.
Your video didn’t load :P
Yeah, my b :). The video was taken off YouTube, but I’ve replaced it now.
Struggling is a bit exaggerated. He strained a bit, yes but once he lifted the corbel off the car he was resuming just fine. Even if “struggling” is the case, keep in mind that it was at least twice his size.
To-may-to, to-mah-to. It’s beside the point. If you’ll watch the newly replaced video, you can see it’s nothing compared to Oliver’s cable net arrows.
I’m confused to see how this’ll work. How exactly is Cage going to launch in the air, if the arrows are being shot at his “ankle” or “back”, only for the cable ends to hit the ceiling and yank? Wouldn’t that mean Oliver would have to shoot two set of two cable net arrows to achieve such a goal? I’m saying this because when his Cable net arrows are projected and hit a target, don’t they only hit one spot and that’s it? Also, I don’t see the cable net-hand plan working, as he broke out of handcuffs and a heavy set of chains when he was detained by the police in his own show without a problem (Luke CageEp 11 or 12)
I think now that the video has been replaced with a more viable one, that maybe you should watch it again and hopefully understand what I am talking about, because they don’t work in the way in which you describe. Once you watch it, re-read the description of the strategy and feel free to any questions if you are still confused. And the point of the tactic is to immobilize Cage, so that he won’t be able to move his sturdy arms or legs in order to keep him propelled in the air and restrained.
I don’t see that working:
He didn't even budge when this explosion occurred, and this same explosion sent superhuman, Jessica Jones flying back twenty feet.
Jessica Jones is not made of a dwarf star alloy. Neither is Luke Cage. In fact, upon further research, I might actually say something a little daring here: an explosive arrow at its highest yield could knockout Luke Cage. And here’s why:
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This is a Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II jet fighter, a “fifth-generation combat aircraft is designed to perform ground attack and air superiority missions”. According to the thoroughly detailed Wikipedia page, there are two distinctions of short-range air-to-air missiles: the AIM-9X Sidewinder and the AIM-132 ASRAAM. I’m on a college time schedule here so… I flipped a coin and chose the AIM-9X Sidewinder to detail. Though, in all honesty, I’d imagine either of these yield far more destructive power than the FIM-43 Redeye Missile Launcher and the results should be comparable. But, with that said, let’s get nasty!
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The AIM-9X Sidewinder is an infrared air-to-air missile designed primarily for the U.S. Air Force and Navy, blasting off at speeds approximating Mach 2.7 and wielding a 9.36kg annular blast fragmentation warhead on the tip of its nose. Hopefully, I can make this much more simpler in mathematics than I did last time and simply use the scientific standard of 4,184 Joules per gram of TNT. Since there are 1,000 grams in a kilogram, all we have to do is multiply 9.36 by 1,000 to get 9,360 grams. 9,360 multiplied by 4,184 equals 39,162,240 Joules. The detonation in this video took about a second, meaning the wattage is about the same.
So, what does this mean? Plain and simple, the A.T.O.M. has tanked explosions approximately twenty times more powerful than what Luke Cage survived and was KO’d by. Obviously, the explosive arrow on its highest yield is no AIM-9X Sidewinder. But nevertheless, the fact that it had an explosive enough effect to send the Exosuit skidding through the air says something pretty significant. The explosive arrow may not have sent the A.T.O.M. Exosuit flying as far as the Sidewinder did, and it may not have damaged it as much as the Sidewinder did. But comparing the distance between how far each explosion sent Palmer flying, and I think it can be agreed upon that the distances are halfway to reasonably close; it would not have taken a twentieth of the power of the Sidewinder missile (the power of a FIM-43 Redeye) to send the A.T.O.M. as far he was sent in his fight with Oliver. Given this, I think it can be safely said that the Arrow’s explosive arrow at its highest setting yields a higher wattage than the FIM-43 Redeye Missile.
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Not convinced? Consider this. I think both the general public and you can agree that MCU War Machine is noticeably more durable than MCU Luke Cage. When MCU War Machine was shot out of the sky and plummeted to the depths below, he was crippled. And yet, at the end of this video, Ray Palmer survived a very similar fall at a higher velocity and stillwalks after the high octane ordeal. In comparison, the A.T.O.M. Exosuit is, by far, more durable than the War Machine Stark-variant, and thusly leagues more durable than Mr. Luke Cage himself.
Yes, but would it actually work? The only time, he was knocked out by something like this is when Cottonmouth attempted to kill Cage with an RPG, but that was an entire building collapsing on Cage rather than chunks of debris. And by feats, Cage is superior to Cyrus in terms of blunt force.
Pardon my confusion, but do you mean superior by blunt force striking power or blunt force resistance?
As for the top half, it may or may not work. Bringing down parts of the roof with explosive arrows would require enough spacing for Oliver to escape just in case. But it could serve more to incapacitate Luke Cage by piling up debris on top of him, rather than KO’ing him.
But, I know for a fact that Oliver only carries 24 arrows in his quiver, and he has at least 17 different arrows in this fight as stated in the OP. So that means, he only has 2 of each, if not 1 and once he exhausts those, there’s not much he can do.
Admittedly, I didn’t really establish any sort of limit to how many arrows Oliver Queen has. Though, I would be curious as to how you came up with the number twenty four. Regardless, in the context of this fight, Oliver does have enough and again, admittedly, I may or may not have given him slightly more than twenty-four. Not that I established a limit in the first place, but the context of the OP was that Oliver would have multiple trick arrows, some of which would idealistically be more than one of the same type (ex. standard, explosive, and cable-net, as he has demonstrated to have more than one of those in battles he wasn’t necessarily prepared for). If you really wish, I can give him a limit and take out the less relevant trick arrows, but I’d prefer not to because that’d feel a little dirty since we’re already halfway through the debate.
Even with all these arrows or some, and a substantial amount of knowledge he still tried to fight up close or didn’t keep that of range with Mirakuru users such as Cyrus Gold (even in their second encounter) and Slade Wilson (same with him) utilizing normal arrows and even H2H combat before resorting to different types of arrows and tactics which will be a bad idea as stated above. I would also like to point out, even though Oliver knows Cage is superhumanly durable, he has to know to what extent. He usually and will most likely test his opponent or their durability by firing a few normal arrows at an opponent while closing the distance and eventually resorting to CQC, which’ll be his downfall.
It’s true, that is a tactic that Oliver uses against superhumanly strong and durable opponents. However, that doesn’t mean he can distance himself mid-fight, either by his own direction or if Cage punches or pushes him back if he does gets his hands on him. From there, he can instigate some of the aforementioned tactics. Plus, for repitition’s sake, he can still effect Luke Cage in hand to hand in an even better fashion than Sowande or Murakami.
I would also like to point out, while Cage doesn’t utilize any type of CQC skill against normal humans he did in his fight with Diamondback utilizing boxing and grappling techniques so I don’t see why he wouldn’t do the same in this fight.
I do. Because he only does so in one fight. In every other fight, both canon fodder and martial artists, he seems to lack that same boxer technique he had when he encountered Diamondback for the last time. It’s more consistent that he doesn’t utilize such technique.
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Even if we were to give him that benefit, Oliver has mastered thirteen different fighting styles. Ignoring the relatively low-end inconsistency of his fight with Ted Grant (who was a professional-grade boxer in the first place, whereas Cage isn’t), a boxer isn’t likely to be able overwhelm someone so much more combatively diverse than he is.
You mean how Murakami, Sowande, Elektra, and Danny Rand all broke their wrists when they fought Luke Cage?
(Pardon my sass.)
Review
I don't have much to add from my initial post, but here are a couple of newly arrived details that have spawned from this response.
Luke Cage holds back. No question about it. Even against superb martial artists, blows that look as if they could wreck his opponent, strength taken into account, end up not doing so. His blows are much less likely to seriously injure Oliver Queen, a man who's body is much closer proximity to peak perfection than any of the foes Luke Cage has fought against.
Likewise, even though Luke Cage has telegraphed martial artists on rare occasion, Oliver Queen is leagues ahead of anybody Luke Cage has faced for the most part. Because of this, Luke Cage would have a much more difficult time tagging Oliver than he would with previously fought foes.
Consistently, Oliver's unnaturally sculpted body (no homo) has maintained a consistent threshold of taking higher damage output than what Luke Cage can deliver.
Consistently, Luke Cage has proven that he can be rocked by high-tier martial artists in hand to hand combat - a category of which Oliver Queen falls under.
Arrow's explosive arrow, at its highest yield, has skyrocketed A.T.O.M., a character who, by feats, is on a whole other scale of durability compared to Luke Cage. Theoretically, an explosive arrow at the same or approximate yield should knockout Luke Cage.
Oliver Queen has mastered thirteen different techniques of hand-to-hand fighting. Luke Cage is only familiar with one and has only really utilized it once.
@jayfreeman: Hey my man! My response is fully up! I don't know if you read my more drawn-out apology in the updates, but I do truly apologize. If I knew you in real life, I'd give you money to apologize (#bribery). Hope you can forgive me for the sloppy job I did keeping you upraised. Looking forward to your response!
P.S. I am indeed in a new semester of college now. So if you do respond, I will not necessarily be able to make a counter-rebuttal timely. Just a heads up!
I personally don't like having to judge based on just 1 post against 2 but since you are both in agreement to go to votes I will take what I have.
Voting for @fetts. It's not my personal take on the fight but based on the analyses presented I thought Arrow had a better argument going for him. Fetts made the smart move of taking both characters at face value and not exaggerating their capabilities. Despite the concessions he was forced to make for Cage his own showings for Oliver's gear seemed like very strong points. I am never a fan of fancalcs and this debate was crammed absolutely full of them, but I still feel the underlying comparisons are fair for the general strength of Oliver's gear and what his trick arrows are capable of affecting. At the same time I thought Cage's own weaknesses were appropriately identified and in general Fetts was able to put forward a strong argument that those weaknesses were exploitable to the point where Oliver can and will win this. Meanwhile I felt that Jay's counters to the analyses of many of Luke's feats didn't have much to support them, and in general most of what was given for Luke was conceded by Fetts anyway.
Was shaping up to a pretty decent debate but as I said I am not the biggest fan of voting when the arguments were not finished.
@amendment50: Thanks my man! Yeah, I would have liked to keep going on a loosely spaced progression but I completely understand his position and I'm in college anyways. It's one of the main reasons why I haven't been as active on Comic Vine in the last couple years.
Also giving my vote to @fetts. I feel like it's maybe a little unfair voting for two posts against one so I tried to look exclusively at the first post for each as much as possible. I feel like enough points were made as to how the various trick arrows/stealth techniques could exploit Luke's weaknesses, and they weren't all fully countered. Some were mitigated, but not to the extent that a victory could be taken. Great job from you both, however. I really enjoyed reading this.
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