CaV: CW Arrow (BladeOfFury) vs. IP Man (NormanBates)

IP Man/Donnie Yen being represented by yours truly,

The Star City Savior represented by @bladeoffury

Rules:

• No outside assistance/interference
• Winner by death/KO/incapacitation
• Melee fight only: Ollie can use his bow, and IP Man has a steel staff
• Both are in their peak physical & skill prime
• Both are determined to win
• Morals on
• Random encounter/no pre-preparations

Fighting Location: Dojo

Debater Rules:

• As this is a CaV, we ask that you keep your opinions to yourself until the debate is over
• If you wish to be tagged when the debate does end, simply ask and you will be notified
• Please do not vote on who you think is more powerful, but on who made a better case for their rep's victory
• Respect one another in the comments
• Please respect these rules, and don't make us call the mods
• Other than that, thanks for reading!

@bladeoffury This look good?

@normanbates:

Very, good luck! This should be lots of fun.

@bladeoffury: Good luck to you as well, friend! Would you like to go first or shall I?

@normanbates:

You can go first if you like.

Tag

@bladeoffury: Ok, but it'll take me a day or two to post, as I'm going to have watch some of the movies over again on Netflix, and the post is going to be big.

T4V

@normanbates: That's fine, I will take several days as well, as I plan to get rid of all my work first.

Callouts:

Ooooo. Excited.

T4V.

Tag

T4V

T4v. I haven't seen IP man movies, so this should be fun.

T4V

t4v

T4v

T4V

T4V

Why am I on the list of arrow call outs?

TV4

@jashro44: Because you've defeated several Arrow debaters??? :p

T4v

T4V

@bladeoffury:

IP Man

Bio

Yip Man, also known as Ip Man, was born on October 1, 1893, in Foshan, China. He studied Wing Chun and went on the become one of the most respected martial arts masters of his time. Among his most notable students was Bruce Lee. Yip Man died on December 2, 1972, in Hong Kong. In 2013, two films about his life were released, The Grandmaster and Ip Man: The Final Fight.

Morals/Attitude

Before we get started and proceed to feats, let’s talk about Ip Man’s morals and attitude in this fight. Usually, Yip is calm and collective in his fights usually aiming to subdue his opponents with pulled punches and pressure points, depending on his opponents and the circumstances of the fight, but since this is him at his very best, the gloves are coming off and he won’t hesitate to give the courtesy of a severe beating kind of like this:

Plus, he will utilize his skill to the maximum potential which results in a very dangerous fighter. Now I know Oliver is the same, pulling his punches even at his best and because this is a morals on fight, but I just wanted to give you an idea what type of fighter, Yip is under these conditions. Now on to feats.

Skill

Yip is grandmaster tier in skill, easily dispatching and defeating master martial artists specializing in Kung Fu, Wing Chun, northern fighting styles, and even boxing. He has been training in Wing Chun since his late teens/early 20’s. One of his best examples of skill, is him subduing, disarming, and easily defeating Jin Shan Zao, with the use of pressure points and joint attacks:

In case you didn’t know who Jin is, he is an aggressive, rude, and highly skilled martial artist from North of Chine who easily dispatched and stomped multiple senseis of fighting schools putting them on the defensive end throughout Foshan prior to meeting Yip:

Defeating Jin is impressive, as the former has shown an impressive feat of strength, drop kicking a man with enough force to send him flying and break a table in half:

Add that to the fact that in his fight with Yip, he wielded a lethal weapon with far more reach, whereas Yip had one with less and non-lethal.

He also easily defeated 10 of General Miura’s training who display high degrees of skill, oneshotting one of them, and fights four simultaneously:

If you thought the previous GIF and video was impressive, wait till you here the context behind it:

1. He defeats 10 of these trainees despite not practicing Wing Chun since the Japanese infiltrated Foshan, time of which can range from multiple months to a year.

2. He was low on energy or borderline starving. He was giving most of the food (which was very little), he received from work to his family, in hopes that his wife at the time would receive energy as she was sick at the time, and so his wife and son wouldn’t starve to death. And this was right after he was inputting labor at the coal mine, which must’ve been very tiring.

3. 3 of these trainees stomped Foshan Martial Arts Master Liu, who before made little work of one.

He also has the feat of defeating Master Law, Cheng, and stalemated Hung in a table match, all of which who are senseis of martial arts school:

Let me elaborate, the table match consist of two opponents fighting on a table, until one either surrenders or falls off, resulting in elimination. IP Man wins 3 out of 3 matches utilizing coordination, dexterity, agility, and skill in attempt to stay put.

He also defeats the boxer Twister, with the utilization of pressure points and vital attacks to the arms and areas of the body holding senses (eyes, ears) and well placed strikes to the face, temple, and torso in an effort to use his strength, and skill against him:

wister held many advantages against Yip, stacking the odds against him:

1. He was far stronger, younger, and in shape than Ip. He was literally ragdolling Hung with his punches, and tossed Ip across a boxing ring.

2. The judges in the middle of the fight, restrained Ip so that he couldn’t kick.

3. He was as fast, if not faster than IP evident by the fact that Hung was capable of unleashing a flurry of blows in seconds like this:

And yet, Twister was able to tag both of them.

Twister in retrospect has stomped Master Hung in a professional fight, who has stalemated IP Man:

And even oneshotted one of Hung’s students prior to their fight leaving a superficial mark against his face, and no sold a punch to the gut from that student as well.

There are far more showings of skill, but these are to give you an idea what type of fighter Yip is, and how he’s going to treat Ollie in this brawl.

Combat Speed/Reflexes

One of the main keys of using Wing Chun in combat, is to dispatch your opponent as fast and efficiently as possible. Hence, why you often see IP Man throwing a rapid flurry of punches like this:

There’s also the feat of him, dodging a rapid flurry of punches delivered from Zhang Tian Chi, a master in Muay Thai:

The impressive part about this, is right before this feat, Yip was pressure pointed in one of his eyeballs, leaving him temporarily blind and then used his senses (hearing) and balance to evade the attacks.

Plus Zhang, as you can see in the video above was as fast if not faster than Yip.

I’ll keep this part short, and say he does things similar to this, just in different circumstances. Doing the former, gives me a chance to talk about Ollie’s combat speed: Now I see a lot of people on the forums saying he’s fast enough to tag the Flash. I’d argue that’s rather him telegraphing, and utilizing his skill to do so, plus Barry was bloodlusted and wasn’t incorporating any usual tactics that would him in battle. Even if he was fast enough to do so, that feat would inconsistent in comparison to his other because he’s been tagged by slower such as Cyrus Gold, Diggle, Merlyn, The copycat arrows, Ted Grant, Nyssa, or basically skilled opponents (some of them). My point is IP should be able to tag Ollie as every highly skilled individual he has come across has been able to do so, and he should also be able to evade some of them.

Durability

If IP Is tagged by Ollie it won’t be a game changer, as he took attacks that sent him flying back on a few occasions and has resumed fighting. Take for example, attacks from Twister:

Twister as I said before possessed the strength to oneshot a martial artist leaving a superficial mark on his face.

Or punches from Mike Tyson that sent him flying back as well:

Dealing damage to Ollie will be difficult, but I’ll explain how he’ll do it in this fight, in my strategy.

Strength/Striking

Looks can be deceiving, but Yip is no pushover in raw strength by any means. Look at how he oneshots a highly skilled marital artist with a well-placed kick to the face:

Or how casually oneshots fodder with duel bamboo sticks:

Slams the 240+ lb. Mike Tyson:

He also hits a ninja fodder with a bamboo stick hard enough to send him flying and through a wooden chair as a young, but brittle man:

Bench presses a large billboard off of him as an elderly man:

Kicks a small wooden structure into a fodder, oneshotting him as an elderly man:

Before you say it, yes Yip is by no means stronger than Ollie, however he’s not completely outclassed based on the feats I posted above.

Strategy

So here’s how I see this fight going: Both Ip and Ollie will have one another locked in sights, ready to engage. Once engaged, both will confront each other with their respectable weapons and duel it out. Once Yip sees Ollie taking all of this damage and not showing signs of going down, he will proceed to use pressure points to wear him down followed by vital attacks which’ll surely do some damage. Once Ollie is tired and worn down, he will proceed to finish him off with a one inch punch to the stomach either incapacitating or KO’ing him. Ollie’s weakness here is that he’s never fought anybody of Yip’s tier regarding skill, nor his fighting style while Yip has fought and defeated master martial artists specializing in Ninjitsu, Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu, Muay Thai, Wing Chun, Boxing, etc. Plus he’s never fought anybody with Yip’s prowess and efficiency with combat speed.

Sorry my post took so long! School’s been keeping me busy, and I wish you the best of luck on your opener!

Tag

@normanbates: Nice

Just remember, Ollie beat the boxer on his first episode, that Donnie had trouble with

@danieldaripper: Thanks :)

Introducing the Man Under the Hood - Oliver Queen

"My name is Oliver Queen. After 5 years in hell, I returned home with only one goal: To save my city. But my old approach wasn't enough. I had to become someone else. I had to become something else. I had to become the Green Arrow."

After being lost at sea and stranded on a hellish island for 5 years, a billionaire playboy named Oliver Queen had to abandon his morals, cross his thresholds, and transform himself into a living weapon in order to survive. Upon his return, Oliver used his newfound skills to save his city as the vigilante known as the Green Arrow.

Throughout his years on the island and crusade as the Arrow, Oliver faced and beat immortal ninjas, bullet-proof crime-lords, super soldiers, metahumans, speedsters, aliens, and telekenetic manipulators of primordial energies. Arrow's experience and vast physical prowess is more than enough for him to take the win.

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My initial argument is straightforward: Arrow outclasses IP Man in all aspects but skill, in which IP Man's slight advantage isn't enough to overcome Arrow's experience and far superior physicals.

The categories I will be analyzing are strength, speed, durability, and skill. Each category will have 2 sections: feat presentation (presenting feats) and counters (countering the opposition's feats).

Strength

Brute force:

Oliver snaps a man's neck:

Throws a man through a door with one hand:

Wrestles a Mirakuru user, preventing him from choking him out:

One fodder Mirakuru user soloed an entire precinct of officers.

Striking:

Cleanly decapitates a stone statue:

Hurts Cyrus Gold:

The Mirakuru amped Cyrus to the point that he can no-sell bullets, steel arrows bend when they hit him, and his muscle density has been compared to that of concrete.

Hurts Deathstroke:

Counters -

Look at how he oneshots a highly skilled marital artist with a well-placed kick to the face

Or how casually oneshots fodder with duel bamboo sticks

Impressive. Arrow has a feat surpassing those, where he one-shots 3 highly skilled triad members in one blow:

He also hits a ninja fodder with a bamboo stick hard enough to send him flying and through a wooden chair as a young, but brittle man

Bench presses a large billboard off of him as an elderly man

Kicks a small wooden structure into a fodder, oneshotting him as an elderly man

The above feats are not performed by the IP Man we are debating with. IP Man has 3 movies, the actor being Donnie Yen. These feats were performed by another IP Man, not the same actor, not the same continuity.

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Speed

Combat speed:

Arrow keeps up with Flash in H2H:

At this point, Barry was already able to see bullets in slow-motion.

Oliver takes this one step further, and actually tags Barry:

Reactions:

Oliver is an arrow-timer:

Oliver can even dodge bullets at close range, right as they are fired:

Travel speed:

Oliver outruns a mountain lion:

Gallery

Mountain lions can run up to 80 km/h.

Counters -

One of the main keys of using Wing Chun in combat, is to dispatch your opponent as fast and efficiently as possible. Hence, why you often see IP Man throwing a rapid flurry of punches like this

To be honest, I wouldn't call that efficient. While fast, those punches are low damage, hence why he needs so many to bring down one fodder opponent. They also take more energy to execute. On the other hand, Oliver takes his opponents down in one or two shots, which takes less time and less energy.

There’s also the feat of him, dodging a rapid flurry of punches delivered from Zhang Tian Chi, a master in Muay Thai

The impressive part about this, is right before this feat, Yip was pressure pointed in one of his eyeballs, leaving him temporarily blind and then used his senses (hearing) and balance to evade the attacks.

This feat is very impressive, but Oliver has one that surpasses it:

Just like IP Man, Oliver did not have eyes on the attacker. He used his hearing to identify the attack and reacted just in time. However, this feat is superior for the following reasons:

1. An arrow travels much faster than a punch does (about 6 times faster).
2. Unlike IP Man, Oliver didn't even know he was in a fight, considering that the attackers ambushed him. He was caught completely off guard.

Now I see a lot of people on the forums saying he’s fast enough to tag the Flash. I’d argue that’s rather him telegraphing, and utilizing his skill to do so,

While skill definitely played a big part, so did speed. As shown here and here, regular people are standing still when Barry moves in his "slow motion" mode. They don't even notice him there. Just the fact that Oliver was able to actually move makes it an incredible speed feat.

plus Barry was bloodlusted and wasn’t incorporating any usual tactics that would him in battle.

I don't entirely agree. Not only was Barry more brutal and thus using his speed to his fullest potential, but he actually seemed to be smarter and more tactical. This is evident in several moments in their fight:

• After Oliver restrains Barry with his grapple arrow, Barry uses it against him by dragging Oliver across the street at superspeed
• After Oliver hits Barry with the tranquilizer, Barry vibrates it out of his system
• Barry attempts to cut off Oliver's oxygen supply by running around him
• After Oliver escapes by shooting a grapple hook at a high point, Barry uses it against him by running up the building, disconnecting the hook, and letting Oliver fall from a great height
• After Oliver triggers a trap set by him earlier and two arrows are shot at Barry's back, Barry recalls Oliver doing this in a training session and catches the arrows

Even if he was fast enough to do so, that feat would inconsistent in comparison to his other because he’s been tagged by slower such as Cyrus Gold, Diggle, Merlyn, The copycat arrows, Ted Grant, Nyssa, or basically skilled opponents (some of them). My point is IP should be able to tag Ollie as every highly skilled individual he has come across has been able to do so, and he should also be able to evade some of them.

Oh, there is no doubt that IP Man will tag Arrow and that he will be able to evade some of Arrow's attacks. Some, not all. The Flash encounter is evidence that Oliver is fast enough to tag IP Man, which is all I need to make my case.

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Durability

Oliver tanks being kicked and put through a wall by Cyrus Gold, and proceeds to beat him:

Tanks being ragdolled by Damien Darhk's telekenisis:

Counters -

Or punches from Mike Tyson that sent him flying back as well

Tanking punches from Frank is nice, but tanking punches for Mirakuru Deathstroke is better (the flashback fight):

If IP Is tagged by Ollie it won’t be a game changer, as he took attacks that sent him flying back on a few occasions and has resumed fighting. Take for example, attacks from Twister

Let's prolong the very GIF you provided:

Yes, let's take this example. When Oliver tags IP Man, IP Man will go down harder and for longer than in the above instance. Why?

1. Oliver has much better strength and striking feats than Twister
2. Oliver's metal bow is harder than a fist
3. Twister's boxing gloves decrease the force of the punch

If IP Is tagged by Ollie it won’t be a game changer

So I disagree, this will be a game changer. In fact, this may cost IP Man the entire game.

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Skill

Fodder:

Takes down 15 guards, a dozen of them in a tight hallway:

Takes down 9 highly trained mercenaries

Takes down 24 armed guards

Keep in mind that these feats are from Season 1 and 2, and Oliver gets much better during the upcoming 4 seasons. This is evident through his fights against skilled opponents.

Skilled opponents:

Oliver fights Merlyn, barely beating him in Season 1:

Merlyn was clearly the better fighter - he even handled Ollie and Diggle at the same time. Oliver only won by stabbing himself through the shoulder.

Now look at how much Ollie improved after his LoA training, being able to outright stomp Malcolm:

Arrow struggles with Cupid and struggles with China White pre-training, but holds the upper hand against both Cupid and China White at the same time post-training:

His improvement is clear as day.

Here are some more of his fights against skilled opponents, and sometimes even multiple skilled opponents at the same time:

• Defeats China White
• Beats Deathstroke
• Beats Anarky
• Stomps his teammates
• Holds his own against Spartan, Speedy, and White Canary at the same time

Super-humans:

Arrow's skill can also be seen through his performance against super-humans, who significantly outclass him in physicals. Here are some examples:

• Defeats Stardust (a metahuman who doesn't feel pain)
• Defeats (arguably) a bloodlusted Flash
• Defeats Cyrus Gold
• Defeats the Atom

Counters -

One of his best examples of skill, is him subduing, disarming, and easily defeating Jin Shan Zao, with the use of pressure points and joint attacks

In case you didn’t know who Jin is, he is an aggressive, rude, and highly skilled martial artist from North of Chine who easily dispatched and stomped multiple senseis of fighting schools putting them on the defensive end throughout Foshan prior to meeting Yip

Impressive. Oliver has a feat that surpasses it, where he disarms and kills Ra's Al Ghul:

In case you didn't know who Ra's is, he a mystical grandmaster, the leader of an ancient organization of ninjas (the League of Assasins), who trained for over 100 years, kills ninjas just for practice, casually stomped Speedy with one hand, and humiliated pre-training Oliver with the use of joint-locks and pressure points:

This is also a representation of Oliver's improvement.

He also easily defeated 10 of General Miura’s training who display high degrees of skill, oneshotting one of them, and fights four simultaneously

Arrow has a feat that matches it, where he also defeats 10 mercenaries:

Just like IP Man, Oliver was far from his best shape. While IP Man was simply out of practice and low on energy, Oliver was overdosed on a lethal drug in his system, hence why he couldn't take his bow to the fight. Moreover, the trainees IP Man fought were unarmed, while some mercenaries facing Oliver were armed with machine guns.

He also has the feat of defeating Master Law, Cheng, and stalemated Hung in a table match, all of which who are senseis of martial arts school

The fights were nice, but none of these men have any feats for themselves. Oliver was able to defeat Nyssa Al Ghul, defeat Captain Boomerang, and beat Prometheus, all of which have a ton of feats for themselves.

He also defeats the boxer Twister, with the utilization of pressure points and vital attacks to the arms and areas of the body holding senses (eyes, ears) and well placed strikes to the face, temple, and torso in an effort to use his strength, and skill against him

Little did we know, but after Twister got beat by IP Man, he moved to Starling City, and was recruited to be the top bodyguard for a man named Adam Hunt. Only to get stomped and killed by Arrow on his first night...

Ok, just kidding. Defeating Twister is impressive, but Oliver defeated someone even more dangerous in a boxing match - Deathride:

Gallery

Deathride is a superhuman hitman who comes out of hiding for the "Tournament of Skulls," in which he was the reigning champion (Oliver being the reason for the was). His fist is bigger than Oliver's entire head. Yet, Oliver defeated him through pressure points and pure skill .

I would also like to say a few words about the combatants' fighting styles. IP Man practices a fighting style which centers around Wing Chun. Oliver is a master in a dozen different fighting styles, with Wing Chun being one of them. Oliver is more versatile than IP Man in this way.

Regardless on the style, all of these feats shown above prove that Ollie is more than skilled enough to hang with IP Man in this category.

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Strategy

Counters -

Once Yip sees Ollie taking all of this damage and not showing signs of going down, he will proceed to use pressure points to wear him down followed by vital attacks which’ll surely do some damage.

The problem with pressure points is that it is much harder to utilize them on a faster and similarly skilled opponent, especially if said opponent actually knows pressure points himself.

• Arrow disables the dodger's arm by throwing a flechette at a pressure point (2:45)
• Arrow revives Tommy with the use of a pressure point (2:11)
• Arrow uses a pressure point on Deathride:

• Oliver also made Diana seem dead and later revived her in the Season 4 flashback plot

Oliver knows pressure points. It only makes sense that we will be able to prevent someone from using them against him.

Once Ollie is tired and worn down, he will proceed to finish him off with a one inch punch to the stomach either incapacitating or KO’ing him.

1. Oliver won't be worn down to begin with because the pressure points are likely to be ineffective
2. Unless that one inch punch packs anywhere near as much damage as punches from Mirakuru users (which Oliver tanked), it will also be innefective
3. You're also forgetting that Oliver won't just be standing there letting IP Man put his durability to the test. He will be fighting back. He will also be tagging IP Man, but unlike Yip, Ollie doesn't have to resort to pressure points to hurt him. A clean strike to the face and Yip is done for.

Ollie’s weakness here is that he’s never fought anybody of Yip’s tier regarding skill, nor his fighting style while Yip has fought and defeated master martial artists specializing in Ninjitsu, Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu, Muay Thai, Wing Chun, Boxing, etc.

Oliver fought Ra's Al Ghul, Deathstroke, Dark Archer, and Prometheus, all of whom come pretty close to IP Man in skill, and outclass him in physicals.

IP Man's weakness is that he has never fought someone

• as strong as Oliver
• as fast as Oliver
• as durable as Oliver

Oliver also knows all the fighting styles you mentioned. IP Man has fought individuals specializing in each of those fighting styles separately, but he has never fought an individual specializing in all of those styles at once.

Plus he’s never fought anybody with Yip’s prowess and efficiency with combat speed.

As fast as Yip is, I don't think he comes close to Flash and Reverse Flash, both of whom Arrow has fought.

Why Arrow Wins

Arrow outclasses IP Man in all aspects but skill, and it isn't close.

1. Strength - IP Man takes fodder down in multiple shots, while Arrow hurts Mirakuru users.
2. Speed - Oliver arrow-times, outruns mountain lions, dodges bullets for dinner, and keeps up with the Flash in H2H. There is nothing to suggest that IP Man can replicate any of those feats.
3. Durability - IP Man struggles to get up after a boxer's punch, while Arrow gets up after multiple attacks from Mirakuru users.

For skill, Arrow has fought numerous skilled opponents through his crusade, and even held the upper hand against multiple skilled opponents at once. He constantly uses his skill to take down opponents outclassing him in physicals, such as Cyrus Gold, Stardust, and the Flash. Ollie can easily rival IP Man through skill alone.

The fight will go as follows: Arrow and IP Man will engage in a close quarters fight. IP Man will land some punches, probably some of his signature quick punches, and Oliver will complement him for the massage:

No matter how to think about it, Oliver is skilled and fast enough to tag Yip at some time in the fight. When that time comes, IP Man will go down quick. If a punch from Twister in boxing gloves brought Yip down, what do you think will happen after a physically superior opponent with a metal weapon connects?

When IP Man goes down (and he will go down), Oliver won't have a referee pushing him back to his corner. IP Man won't have a crowd of supporters protecting him. Oliver won't have to follow the rules of a boxing match, and he will use this advantage to pound on a defenseless IP Man.

Oliver won't win easily. IP Man will put up a good fight. But he doesn't have the feats, experience, and physicals to suggest that he can beat a superhero.

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@normanbates, you're up. Good luck!