• 96 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
Avatar image for pokergeist
#1 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

VS

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

  • Standard Gear
  • In Character
  • Death or KO
  • Battle here starting 100 feet apart.
No Caption Provided

Avatar image for pokergeist
#2 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for wolverine008
#3 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

Change that Wolverine pic to this :D

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for dondave
#4 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah the Wolverine pic is horrible, the Bucky one isn't much better either

Avatar image for pokergeist
#5 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

Change that Wolverine pic to this :D

No Caption Provided

Black and White?

Avatar image for wolverine008
#6 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for pokergeist
#7 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for wolverine008
#8 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

Change that Wolverine pic to this :D

Black and White?

Hell yeah!

Hell no. The one I have is awesome!

Not it isn't! Stop giving the characters you are debating against horrible pictures in the OP! :D

Avatar image for pokergeist
#9 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

Not it isn't! Stop giving the characters you are debating against horrible pictures in the OP! :D

Horrible?! those pictures are top quality! You and Dondave would not know art if it swims up, and bit you all in the @$$!

Avatar image for higorm
#10 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: @dondave: pictures are fine, I actually like them, the Bucky one indicates I can use all his feats so far :P

Didn´t like the location though, what kind of crap place is that @cadencev2 ? :P

Avatar image for nickzambuto
#11 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the Wolverine pic. It's definitely something different.

Avatar image for wolverine008
#12 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Now THAT'S a good Wolverine pic Cadence!

Avatar image for pokergeist
#13 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

@wolverine08: @dondave: pictures are fine, I actually like them, the Bucky one indicates I can use all his feats so far :P

Didn´t like the location though, what kind of crap place is that @cadencev2 ? :P

You go first this time.

Avatar image for higorm
#14 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for higorm
#15 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: here goes my opening post..

Team @higorm

Logan Howlett a.k.a Wolverine / James Buchanan Barnes a.k.a Bucky

No Caption Provided

Initial Considerations

Team Chemistry

No Caption Provided

I´m considering this as a factor, since there´s nothing stipulating otherwise, so this is an important factor. Remember you created the rules, so in character means that the characters on my team will work well together, the same way they´ve done before, but I can´t say the same about your team. As seen above, Bucky and Logan fought together before, since the World War to the present day, Bucky even helped Wolverine with his son Daken, placing a carbonadium bullet in the back of his neck. This is a great team-up since even in character they don't mind harming people. Their morals work well together. Wolverine was right next to Bucky when Bucky sniped Madam Masque with a sniper rifle as well. So Wolverine is an excellent person to work with Bucky and vice versa.

Gear/Equipment

No Caption Provided

Since this is BuckyCap, he can count on his bullet proof and impact resistant suit, bionic arm (EMP/Electrical discharges), SHIELD modified handgun (high caliber), vibranium shield, combat knife and a couple of explosives. Wolverine doesn´t need nothing more than his healing factor and adamantium skeleton. Wolverine would be good with Bucky because of his X-Force experience and high amounts of durability. Bucky can neutralize most of Snake´s gear via EMP, so he doesn´t have any advantage here in this department, not to mention most of it wouldn´t work either considering the high durability my team is packing here. Thus, my team possess more than enough gear combined with skill to compete and win this fight.

H2H Combat/Martial Skill

No Caption Provided

Don´t know much about The Shadow but he seems to be the weak link here in terms of fighting ability. Bucky possess enough skill to overcome Snake in a close combat, considering his suit can tank bullets, and his arm gives him superior strength, not to mention that none of his enemies got intel about his bionic arm and its capabilities, remember that thanks to Nick Fury, Bucky's bionic arm is covered in a flesh like material making it both look and feel like a real arm. So this is a large advantage for my team from the start. Making a quick comparison, Bucky said that Steve is 3 times his physical stats, yet he has gone up against Steve's rogues and defeated them fairly well. Steve's encounter with Crossbones without the SSS was not as impressive as all of Bucky's encounters with Crossbones. Bucky fought Batroc the leaper, the man with no face, a small private army and an Apache helicopter. He still managed to get a good shield strike that put Batroc out of the fight. He also defeated 50's Cap twice who is double of Steve's stats and therefore 6 times Bucky's stats, and there wasn't Shield or the Falcon there to help him. Bucky is just as skilled as Steve, he has more raw natural talent due to performing just as well as Steve against Steve's rogues without having a SSS. I don´t even need to talk about Wolverine´s martial skill since it wouldn´t be fair in comparison to your guys, combined they come nowhere near him. If this battle have to be decided on the basis of martial skill, it´s clear who would come on top.

Stealth

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

I´m 110% sure you would end up bringing this to the table as an "advantage" your guys would have against my team. Well, stealth won´t work at all against these characters. Both have extensive training in this particular area. Just to show you how prepared they are, Wolverine has an entire X-Force series all about stealth and going on black ops missions. He´s a covert Ops expert, he has acquired and demonstrated advanced covert abilities during the years he has worked with the C.I.A., Canadian Intelligence and S.H.I.E.L.D. He has trained in the use of and is familiar with many weapons, vehicles, aircraft and computer systems. Bucky is the man who manage to follow the same guy for 3 days without him knowing, than he continued to follow Wolverine for a month without him noticing.

We´re talking about Wolverine here, the one with Superhuman Acute Senses, the ability to see vast distances with complete clarity, advanced eyesight that allows him to see in almost complete darkness. Wolverine's hearing is also enhanced allowing him to hear from great distances as well as hear pitches that ordinary human beings cannot and even fight blindfolded. These abilities also allow Wolverine to recognize people by their scent even if they are in a shape shifted state like beings such as Mystique and Morph. Wolverine is also one of the best trackers in the Marvel universe as he is able to track objects as well as human over very great distances. He has also been seen to be a human lie detector as he can hear a person’s heartbeat increase when they lie and also identify certain changes in their body such as increase in perspiration. Wolverine's sense of taste is also enhanced, allowing him to not only smell, but taste pheromones in the air such as when he made mention of training with Jean Grey in the Danger Room.

Wolverine also possess several passages when he manage to find, track, sense hidden, invisible, noiseless and even odorless enemies before, just using his enhanced senses. So I highly doubt that either Snake or Shadow would have any chance trying to sneak on him, that wouldn´t work at all, in fact that would be a clear chance of counter attack by him.

Avatar image for pokergeist
#16 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Nice cute little opener, I will get on this tonight.

Avatar image for wolverine008
#17 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll be watching.

Avatar image for higorm
#18 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for pokergeist
#19 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Well its time to layeth the smack down.

Lets know a little of both characters shall we. Unlike your team on the Vine, my team is very much unknown.

Solid Snake

Solid Snake is a clone super human with the perfect soldier genes. Bucky was trained to be a soldier, Snake was born to be the perfect soldier. Snake's training is also completely in depth in multiple forms of Martial Arts, all Military Fields, and Government Black Ops Training. On top of all this he is a Military Genius sporting a 180 IQ in all things fighting and stealth.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

All three Bios in order.

Snake is a proven beast of war that has taken down multiple Super Human beings and giant mechs known as Metal Gears with Modern Day weapons. He is like Punisher meets Batman.

I feel I should list Snake's gear from the games as well here.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

This is what he is packing alright. Minus the infinite ammo Bandanna perk.

Shadow

The Shadow is a soldier of fame like Snake, only his tours was World War 1. At the end of the War, he took over much of China's criminal underworld with his cunning and smarts. He however redeem his ways when he meet monks who taught him the Mystic arts of Clouding Men's Minds, Read the Soul, and Know the Fates of all he looked upon. Using his famed fighting skills, criminal genius, and these Mystic powers the Shadow was born. Scourge of the many evils in the world from common street thugs, to the rise of Nazi's, to ancient evils that existed before time. He is a agent of Fate itself.

No Caption Provided

The Shadow is the first and most true Batman in history, existing on Radios across America before Comics even thought of Superman or Batman, and today Dynamite entertainment bring those stories to life.

Shadows Gear is quick to list. He uses .45 Colt Hand Guns and Tommy Machine Gun.

Initial thoughts on your points.

Teamwork:

Your team does have teamwork advantage, but thanks to Solid Snake working with anyone flawlessly, part of being in the Military, and the Shadow's own Military heavy background, I see no reason for the two characters not to mesh well. Also Snake's Codec can be used to gain info on the Shadow. The Shadow exists n his world as a radio superhero still. Mean while, the Shadow can simply look at Snake, read his Soul, and know just about all he needs to know of Snake. Thanks to Shadow's precog abilities, he can also see where him and Snake will have trouble with far in advance. These two characters will mesh very well from the start.

Hand to Hand:

Hand to Hand skill is dead even with all the characters here. Shadow is a master hand to hand fighter who has the ability to read the future of fights before they happen as well read the soul to determine what moves someone is going to use in a fight. He is very athletic, superhuman in his ability to get around, and has proven H2H feats in his comics when his powers failed to work from plot device. Snake is stated by Konami officially as being a master in 32 forms of MAs, and is the current master of CQC which is the most advance form of Hand to Hand combat in the world.

Stealth:

I still hold a major advantage in this area thanks to Snakes constant stated and shown skill in stealth combined with his Stealth Unit device. Shadow also still has the mystic power to Cloud Men's Minds which is key to misdirecting Cap and Wolverine every step of the battle. People of Strong will power can resist it to a degree, but it still affects strong will people in small numbers, and with help of distractions can be pulled off without a hitch. In fact, my team kinda already won due to Cloud Men's Minds.

Senses:

Mean nothing to Solid Snake who has evaded Military Working Dogs and Psychics with his stealth skill. Also means nothing to Shadow with his Cloud Men's Minds.

Opening Moves

I see Shadow opening this up by reading the futures of Snake, seeing the outcomes already, through this he will already know Bucky and Wolverine initial game plans, powers, and abilities. Now what was a random encounter just turned into prep for mine.

Then Snake will focus on what he needs to on Wolverine, which is many explosive weapons as possible via Missiles, Claymores, C4, ect.

Shadow will easily get close to Bucky via Misdirection and then kill Bucky up close and personnel.

Avatar image for higorm
#20 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Well its time to layeth the smack down.

I knew it was a trap, since the very beginning, but don´t start with that "my team kinda already own" crap, the battle has just begun son!

Initial thoughts on your points.

Teamwork

You´re damm right I got the advantage, it is obvious and clear at this point. But I´m not quite convinced that your team will work so nice and easy from the start. The Shadow seems to be the guy who prefers to work alone, and I doubt he would trust Snake so easily, same thing goes for Solid. Also, as said by the battle conditions: Battle here starting 100 feet apart. Also, Wolverine is by far the fastest person here, with his Enhanced Speed, Wolverine is able to move at low level superhuman speeds. He can close the gap without making any sound. He has attacked faster than the eye could follow and even Spider-Man briefly thought Wolverine was faster than he was in their first fight. His combat speed seems more enhanced then anything else, as he has frequently kept up with Spider-Man in combat, and blitzed people before they pull their trigger fingers. So, I hardly believe your guys would have time to trade cards and all that, there´s no room for preparation here. If you wanna go that way be my guest, I even prefer, since my team already know each other well, they will start the action as soon as possible, since there's not much space separating them. At this kind of conditions, in a random encounter, the best course of action is by instinct, and there´s no better person able to use his instincts than Wolverine.

Hand to Hand

Combat skill is far from being even, no one here can compete with Logan in terms of martial arts abilitiy, not even your teammates combined. You can bring all the training and different martial arts mastering you want, but in the end of the day, it still not enough to match the skill of a man that has been around for hundreds of yers, undergoing training through several different masters during the ages, facing and defeating all kinds of enemies, from top street level human martial artist such as Iron Fist, Daredevil, Captain America, Deadpool, Shang-Chi, to alien and supernatural bodies such when he performed a pressure point attack to defeat Kid Gladiator and when he crumbled the Black Dragon's stone minion with one well placed blow. Wolverine has been able to learn virtually every form of fighting style on Earth, mastering 28 forms of Kung-Fu alone, as well as the pressure points located not just on the human body. He has been shown to study in both past and present with Stick, and has been quoted teaching to knowing and using many different styles besides just Kung Fu. Due to his longevity and the fact he has been just about everywhere as an operative (either Black Ops, CIA, Weapon X, SHIELD, etc.) he stands to have mastered most forms of martial arts on Earth than anyone else.

As for Bucky´s fighting ability, he was observed as a young teenager to have remarkable fighting prowess by fighting military men twice his size and age. Due to his high capacity, the U.S. Army sent him off to train with the British SAS. Upon returning, he continued his training under William Essart Fairbairn and Colonel Rex Applegate to become Bucky, the sidekick to Captain America (Steve Rogers).

Thereafter, as Bucky, he was further trained by Steve Rogers until his death and rebirth into the Russian assassin known as the Winter Soldier. With no prior memory of his former self except for his fighting ability, the Winter Soldier continued to train under the Russians to harness his skill in martial arts and assassinations. Because of his skill, James became the basis for the Red Room program and trained dozens of other Russian assassins including the Black Widow. Bucky has proven his fighting ability against creditable fighters such as Black Widow, Sin, Crossbones, Batroc the Leaper, Wolverine and more, not to mention his skill showing against Clint Barton, Daredevil and others.

I also doubt about the ability to see the future, since I don´t know if The Shadow has ever faced someone of the same level as Wolverine. Who has proven able to overcome the likes of Mister X, who possess low-level psychic abilities to predict the moves of his opponents, giving him an advantage in hand-to-hand combat, not even him, who is also a master of every martial art known to man and has even attempted to create his own, not even him was able to effectively predict his moves and so was defeated by him.

Stealth/Senses

Like I said before, that´s not going to work, psychic assaults, mystic powers, advanced tech, reality warping, none of that prevent being caught by Logan senses. Also remember that teams start at only 100 feet apart, so going by hyper active animal senses it´s safe to say that he is more than able to track the enemy team as soon as the battle starts. I will list below some moments in relation to his keen superhuman senses that more than proves what I´m talking about:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10
  • 1/2 - He is able to sense a shadow ninja that was about to get the drop on Dr. Strange.
  • 3 - Wolverine's enhanced senses pick up on plastics and alloys even in a raging inferno, also a great dispplay of his Healing Factor since he gets up almost immediately after having his throat crushed.
  • 4 - Wolverine hears Silver Samurai’s helmet get hit from another building while inside.
  • 5 - Wolverine picked up Havoks scent in the CITY of Ciaro.
  • 6/7 - Can hear controlled ninja heartbeats from another room with the door closed.
  • 8 -Wolverine picks up on Cyber’s presence off of two scents while asleep on a mountain overlooking the entire city of Madripoor
  • 9/10 - Is able to fend off invisible assassins his senses picked up

Not good enough? Okay.

Let´s talk about Wolverine Sixth Sense!

Over the years Wolverine has displayed not only incredible enhanced animal senses but also an innate ability to detect danger or mystical prescenses even without the trace of anything nearby, including a scent. Whether this is the culmination of years of training and honed instincts or an actual supernatural ability is uncertain but he does have some sort of extrasensory ability by all appearances.

- Even though Wolverine's enhanced senses are picking up nothing alarming in their environment Wolverine can still detect that there's not only a danger nearby, but even where it's/he's located:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

- Even though these two are using a whole mess of tech that enables them to be completely cloaked to the outside world, Logan thinks that he recognizes something's nearby leaving the two onlookers baffled:

.

No Caption Provided

- Wolverine recognizes that a host of Nafarian creatures who have no scent and make no noise are on their way towards him:

.

No Caption Provided

Wolverine picks up on a ghost even though the Danger Room can’t, then he makes it book ass:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Another instance where Wolverine shows the extent of his super senses, here he was not affected by reality warping:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Also talking about will power, here we see that rage and anger are and has always been part of his natural defense, the scan below shows a brainwashed Jean Grey failing to attack him through a psionic suggestion:

No Caption Provided

I have plenty more if necessary, but I would like to see the Cloud Men's Minds working on someone like Wolverine here. How many times The Shadow used it before? Against metahumans, superhuman characters, with enhanced senses at the level shown above?

I hope this move isn´t your best shot or I would be very disappointed..

Opening Moves

I see Shadow opening this up by reading the futures of Snake, seeing the outcomes already, through this he will already know Bucky and Wolverine initial game plans, powers, and abilities. Now what was a random encounter just turned into prep for mine. Then Snake will focus on what he needs to on Wolverine, which is many explosive weapons as possible via Missiles, Claymores, C4, ect. Shadow will easily get close to Bucky via Misdirection and then kill Bucky up close and personnel.

As The Shadow waste time with all that reading, Wolverine will close the gap using his enhanced speed, moving without making any sound through the environment, being cover by Bucky, who is up to the fight using his shield and handgun to both attack and defend himself. I don´t know how The Shadow will know about my team plans, (with you assuming that they made a plan at a non-prep battle condition), considering that Wolverine possess mental shields implanted by Prof. Xavier himself. Snake will find that Wolverine is more than he used to deal with, and his "many" explosives and weapons won´t do the job, since the guy has taken a lot worse before, not to mention that with Bucky´s arm, he can release the EMP to shutdown most of his gadjets, rendering him depleted and vulnerable since Snake doesn´t have the slightest idea about it. Snake will fall either way, against Bucky or Logan, since the first possess a weapon to nulify his goodies, turning the battle one-sided since Barnes can rely on his skill and superior strength to bring him down, and the later possess enough durability and damage soak to tank his best shots to close the gap and use his superior stats to overcome him in close combat. Same thing goes for The Shadow who will find his ultimate weapon useless agains Wolverine, someone he doesn´t know and doesn´t expect to have such high senses at his disposal, he can unload his weapons on him but Logan can count on two things either of your teammates possess, healing factor and adamantium skeleton, he can heal from injures, but the same can´t be said for your guys, so one hit K.O.

Avatar image for pokergeist
#21 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

Teamwork

You´re damm right I got the advantage, it is obvious and clear at this point. But I´m not quite convinced that your team will work so nice and easy from the start. The Shadow seems to be the guy who prefers to work alone, and I doubt he would trust Snake so easily, same thing goes for Solid. Also, as said by the battle conditions: Battle here starting 100 feet apart. Also, Wolverine is by far the fastest person here, with his Enhanced Speed, Wolverine is able to move at low level superhuman speeds. He can close the gap without making any sound. He has attacked faster than the eye could follow and even Spider-Man briefly thought Wolverine was faster than he was in their first fight. His combat speed seems more enhanced then anything else, as he has frequently kept up with Spider-Man in combat, and blitzed people before they pull their trigger fingers. So, I hardly believe your guys would have time to trade cards and all that, there´s no room for preparation here. If you wanna go that way be my guest, I even prefer, since my team already know each other well, they will start the action as soon as possible, since there's not much space separating them. At this kind of conditions, in a random encounter, the best course of action is by instinct, and there´s no better person able to use his instincts than Wolverine.

Um.... no, no, and...no.

First off, thanks to Shadow's Read Souls and Precog he will trust Snake completely. Also Shadow has worked with a host of heroes at one time with no issues. He has worked and fought with no qualms next to Green Hornet, Kato, The Spider, Black Terror, and Zorro!

No Caption Provided

And Shadow knew nothing of these guys till meeting them in the Masks mini series. Solid Snake does not trust anybody, but consistently shown to work well with anyone he needs to in every game via codec or advice. He worked with Grey Fox (Cyber Ninja) after Grey Fox tried to kill him.

Secondly, Wolverine is the fastest person here? No. Wolverine may be the fastest runner, however Shadow has traverse cities and jump scaled 3 to 4 stories at a time with insane speeds.

Shadows Speed and Traveling

I'm not super sure how the Shadow as a peak Man can do all this, but he clearly seems very stealthy and has the ability to scale towers, buildings, and jump from insane heights with no problem. At crazy speeds on top of that. Even Batman needs his Grapple Gun and Lines, Shadow has none of this.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

1) Drops from a large building into the car.

2) Appears on a high crane unseen.

3) Jumps from over 30 meters from the side of a ship onto the dock.

4) Travels from roof tops to appear on the ground in front of this man.

5) Appears on a super high tower structure that seems impossible to physically scale.

6) Appears from the shadows of this wall, and then easily gets up to the 3rd story window of this building in no time.

On top of this Shadow is proven to be very fast in reaction time. Recently he showed his own speed vs the insanely fast The Light.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

1) the Light with sowrds and speed cuts masses of bullets from the air pretty easy.

2) Light again cuts bullets out of the air and than attacks Shadow who dodges her attacks pretty well in their first encounter,

3-4) Shadow rematch with the light shows he is not only as fast, but counters her speed and attacks with little trouble.

Also Snake is insanely fast as a super soldier.

Snake's Speed

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10

1) Old Snake dodges Crying Wolf's rail gun shot after it was fired.

2) Snake on his back dodges the mach speed sword attacks from Cyborg Ninja Grey Wolf. Snake has dodges many mach speed sword attacks from grey Wolf.

3-4) Snake regularly dodges Liquids Machine Gun from the Hind D. Same Hind that Liquid use to shoot down two F-16 Fighter Jets in a snowstorm!

5-6) Snake dodges two supersonic missiles that were only yards away from him. then tanked the explosion shock wave.

7) Old Snake dodges a Missile coming for his head.

8) Solid Snake back flips over a bullet shot at him by the worlds premier ace gunman, Revolver Ocelot. Snake was ambushed too.

9) Snake moves his head out of the path of this .45 bullet after the bullet was shot.

10) Snake blitzes and surprise attack Vamp who deflects bullets of his knives as well has muscle reading ability.

So Wolverine is blitzing them? No.... just no...They do not need to communicate with eachother in battle when Shadow can easy cast his Cloud Minds while Snake simply follows Shadow lead.

Hand to Hand

Combat skill is far from being even, no one here can compete with Logan in terms of martial arts abilitiy, not even your teammates combined. You can bring all the training and different martial arts mastering you want, but in the end of the day, it still not enough to match the skill of a man that has been around for hundreds of yers, undergoing training through several different masters during the ages, facing and defeating all kinds of enemies, from top street level human martial artist such as Iron Fist, Daredevil, Captain America, Deadpool, Shang-Chi, to alien and supernatural bodies such when he performed a pressure point attack to defeat Kid Gladiator and when he crumbled the Black Dragon's stone minion with one well placed blow. Wolverine has been able to learn virtually every form of fighting style on Earth, mastering 28 forms of Kung-Fu alone, as well as the pressure points located not just on the human body. He has been shown to study in both past and present with Stick, and has been quoted teaching to knowing and using many different styles besides just Kung Fu. Due to his longevity and the fact he has been just about everywhere as an operative (either Black Ops, CIA, Weapon X, SHIELD, etc.) he stands to have mastered most forms of martial arts on Earth than anyone else.

As for Bucky´s fighting ability, he was observed as a young teenager to have remarkable fighting prowess by fighting military men twice his size and age. Due to his high capacity, the U.S. Army sent him off to train with the British SAS. Upon returning, he continued his training under William Essart Fairbairn and Colonel Rex Applegate to become Bucky, the sidekick to Captain America (Steve Rogers).

Thereafter, as Bucky, he was further trained by Steve Rogers until his death and rebirth into the Russian assassin known as the Winter Soldier. With no prior memory of his former self except for his fighting ability, the Winter Soldier continued to train under the Russians to harness his skill in martial arts and assassinations. Because of his skill, James became the basis for the Red Room program and trained dozens of other Russian assassins including the Black Widow. Bucky has proven his fighting ability against creditable fighters such as Black Widow, Sin, Crossbones, Batroc the Leaper, Wolverine and more, not to mention his skill showing against Clint Barton, Daredevil and others.

I also doubt about the ability to see the future, since I don´t know if The Shadow has ever faced someone of the same level as Wolverine. Who has proven able to overcome the likes of Mister X, who possess low-level psychic abilities to predict the moves of his opponents, giving him an advantage in hand-to-hand combat, not even him, who is also a master of every martial art known to man and has even attempted to create his own, not even him was able to effectively predict his moves and so was defeated by him.

This is cute too. What good is all the skill in the world when Wolverine has forgotten most of it and is too lazy to employ it half the time?

Shadow is not only very skilled fighter, he can read every move Wolverine will make thanks to Soul Read and Precog. Let me explain how these powers work.

The Shadow Knows

This is a form of precognition. Simple as that. He is a servant of Justice, but this Justice is all due to Fate. Fate grants him visions of key events, and the ability after looking into someones heart the glimpses of their futures. Sometimes for Plot, Fate grants nothing, which The Shadow searches out why, and always never grants him the full story or info to accomplish a task. However he does use this to see others futures and predict people's action in a fight. This ability is use as a Line of sight power, like Reading the Hearts of Men. It also may tell him of a opponents next action, but it is up to the Shadow to react to said action.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10

1) Key explanation on the Shadow's precog abilities. He cannot fathom all possible endings, only the key ones that matter in his fights.

2) Starts speaking of Margo's future in casual talk.

3-6) Shadow uses his Precog to see the fate of one of his worst enemies, knowing Justice was served.

7) Uses Precog to predict the mans actions and intent.

8-9) Uses his power to glimpse what had happen already rather than what will happen. He can see what has happen as well it seems.

10) Shadow foresees World War 2 and the Nazi Regime.

Reading the Hearts of Men

This is a very confusing and unique power. Sort of like Telepathy, however has nothing to do with Mind Control or Reading. It is more Soul Reading and Control. Its a mystic power that The Shadow uses to deal out justice. This power seems to require Line of Sight to work. Add to that some people remain immune to it if they are Mystics, Souless, or protected by Fate. This power also seems to manipulate the Dead and dying into carrying out orders or stay alive till he is through with them.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

1) Explains how this power works. Its like a Road Map with all the tour spots listed. In this scan the Black Sparrow is immune to his Mystic powers for unexplained reasons.

2) Spots the evil soul of a target. He had no clue who he was looking for till he spot the Soul which revealed all it needed for Shadow to find who he was looking for.

3) Uses this power to know if man is lying or telling truth. He does this alot in the comics. He also reads his next thoughts to attack.

4-5) Digs into the past Evils of this Nazi.

6) Reads the Spider's secrete identity with a glance.

As you can see. Wolverine skill will be as effective as his fight against Gorgon, meanwhile shadow will know every weakness and ability Logan has. Useful no?

Solid snake has already fought a Wolverine like fighter as well. He was called Vamp!

Snake vs Vamp

No Caption Provided

Snake vs Vamp is unique difference of IDW Comics to the Games. Simply because in this retelling he fights snake rather than Raiden. Woods and Kojima both felt the fans would not invested cash into Raiden since Raiden was so frown upon in the game. I say good on them for noticing.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10

Vamp is as much a bad@$$ in the IDW Comics as he is in the Game. He still has all the skill abilities he shows in MGS4. Like that insane Healing Factor.

Vamp is all shades of holy crap as he is in the Game. In the Game its explain why he seems so fast.

No Caption Provided

He still must be extremely fast, however not faster than bullets as we see. What makes it more impressive however is he can read your muscles at insane speeds and counter any move you make in turn. He also has a Nanonite Regen that makes him near immortal.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Clearly seen when shot in the Head not once, but twice! Still comes back in MGS4 to challenge Raiden no less.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

In the Comics Raiden never makes it to Emma. Snake has to retrieve her and beats Vamp in a simple quick Throat Cut move. Showing off that speed and skill of Snake. Again this is impressive because this is still the same Vamp who would later on in a few years battle Cyborg Ninja Raiden!

That is what Snake had beaten with no awesome Cyborg powers. and Snake had to face this guy and beat him as Old Snake.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

The whole battle of Snake taking down Vamp only to have Vamp keep getting back up, until Snake uses some CQC to turn Vamp more kill able with a injection of Nanites. Then Raiden takes on Vamp while Snake fights of waves of Gecko with his Rail Gun

Solid Snake beaten Vamp every time since their first encounter, nothing Wolverine is packing Skill wise or powers is not something Snake has not fought and won against.

Stealth/Senses

Like I said before, that´s not going to work, psychic assaults, mystic powers, advanced tech, reality warping, none of that prevent being caught by Logan senses. Also remember that teams start at only 100 feet apart, so going by hyper active animal senses it´s safe to say that he is more than able to track the enemy team as soon as the battle starts. I will list below some moments in relation to his keen superhuman senses that more than proves what I´m talking about:

  • 1/2 - He is able to sense a shadow ninja that was about to get the drop on Dr. Strange.
  • 3 - Wolverine's enhanced senses pick up on plastics and alloys even in a raging inferno, also a great dispplay of his Healing Factor since he gets up almost immediately after having his throat crushed.
  • 4 - Wolverine hears Silver Samurai’s helmet get hit from another building while inside.
  • 5 - Wolverine picked up Havoks scent in the CITY of Ciaro.
  • 6/7 - Can hear controlled ninja heartbeats from another room with the door closed.
  • 8 -Wolverine picks up on Cyber’s presence off of two scents while asleep on a mountain overlooking the entire city of Madripoor
  • 9/10 - Is able to fend off invisible assassins his senses picked up

Not good enough? Okay.

Let´s talk about Wolverine Sixth Sense!

Over the years Wolverine has displayed not only incredible enhanced animal senses but also an innate ability to detect danger or mystical prescenses even without the trace of anything nearby, including a scent. Whether this is the culmination of years of training and honed instincts or an actual supernatural ability is uncertain but he does have some sort of extrasensory ability by all appearances.

- Even though Wolverine's enhanced senses are picking up nothing alarming in their environment Wolverine can still detect that there's not only a danger nearby, but even where it's/he's located:

- Even though these two are using a whole mess of tech that enables them to be completely cloaked to the outside world, Logan thinks that he recognizes something's nearby leaving the two onlookers baffled:

- Wolverine recognizes that a host of Nafarian creatures who have no scent and make no noise are on their way towards him:

Wolverine picks up on a ghost even though the Danger Room can’t, then he makes it book ass:

Another instance where Wolverine shows the extent of his super senses, here he was

not affected by reality warping

:

Also talking about will power, here we see that rage and anger are and has always been part of his natural defense, the scan below shows a brainwashed Jean Grey failing to attack him through a psionic suggestion:

I have plenty more if necessary, but I would like to see the Cloud Men's Mindsworking on someone like Wolverine here. How many times The Shadow used it before? Against metahumans, superhuman characters, with enhanced senses at the level shown above?

I hope this move isn´t your best shot or I would be very disappointed..

I am disappointed in you :0.

Every example you showed is simply Logans resistance to Psy power, even the Reality Warping was stated Psy Power in the narration box. Also Wolverine is so resistant to Magic power, then....

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Here Blackheart uses Magic to mentally converse with Punisher, Wolverine, and Ketch at the same time. Wolverine goes as far to attack the Metal image in his head.

No Caption Provided

Or how about the time Wolverine was mentally dominated by a Possession Demon?

Shadow is not a Psychic, he is a mystic. His power is magical. Nothing shows me Wolverine is immune to Shaodw Mystic Misdirection any more than Wolverine was immune to Fantomex Misdirection. However if you wish to see feats of the Cloud Mens Minds....

Cloud Men's Minds

The Shadow uses his ability to Mystically Misdirect foes to accomplish goals. Only the Mystically powered, or those protected by Fate are immune. Extreme Will foes can resist it to a degree, but they are still shown to be affected by it in some way, including other Heroes like the Green Hornet and his side kick Kato.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10Gallery image 11Gallery image 12

1) Clouds mind of business man to enter his windowless office unseen.

2) Clouds Soldier's mind into seeing none of his Shadow gear.

3) Misdirects Assassins to think he was a painting.

4-6) The Shadow enters and leaves this detective's office from the shadows by clouding his mind.

7) Clouds the minds of the Green Hornet and his sidekick Kato to disappear in the Shadows.

8) Clouds the minds of a whole Dock Yard to board a ship.

9) Misdirects a small Japanese and Chinese army to get to the Buffalo.

10-11) Shadow enters a tiny room on a ship, this room has no windows of course, located in the bowels, and is barely big enough to fit 4 men. Clouds the minds to enter with no probs.

12) Misdirects multiple gangsters firing at him.

Now you will ask the question "well none of them have super powers" and I will reply so what? Wolverine is a Human with a Genetic Healing power. How does this translate to immunity I do not know. If your still unconvinced.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8

The Shadow defeats Psychic children with the power of a evil that fled the light of Existence. He kills their servants and undead slaves at the docks. Then he confronts them at their mansion to save Margo. After a slight mental attack, the Shadow shoots the kids, watches them burn in their own Psychokinesis, and then hunts down the root of the evil force.

Now I showed this whole battle to show how shadow actually Clouds the Minds of this powerful Psychic force that possessed the Children.

No Caption Provided

As seen he is already at the Mansion, misdirecting the Psy Power until revealing himself when Margo was endangered.

Easy counter to your precious Wolverine ;)

As The Shadow waste time with all that reading, Wolverine will close the gap using his enhanced speed, moving without making any sound through the environment, being cover by Bucky, who is up to the fight using his shield and handgun to both attack and defend himself. I don´t know how The Shadow will know about my team plans, (with you assuming that they made a plan at a non-prep battle condition), considering that Wolverine possess mental shields implanted by Prof. Xavier himself. Snake will find that Wolverine is more than he used to deal with, and his "many" explosives and weapons won´t do the job, since the guy has taken a lot worse before, not to mention that with Bucky´s arm, he can release the EMP to shutdown most of his gadjets, rendering him depleted and vulnerable since Snake doesn´t have the slightest idea about it. Snake will fall either way, against Bucky or Logan, since the first possess a weapon to nulify his goodies, turning the battle one-sided since Barnes can rely on his skill and superior strength to bring him down, and the later possess enough durability and damage soak to tank his best shots to close the gap and use his superior stats to overcome him in close combat. Same thing goes for The Shadow who will find his ultimate weapon useless agains Wolverine, someone he doesn´t know and doesn´t expect to have such high senses at his disposal, he can unload his weapons on him but Logan can count on two things either of your teammates possess, healing factor and adamantium skeleton, he can heal from injures, but the same can´t be said for your guys, so one hit K.O.

All that reading? Shadow does all this with a glimpse. He will know the future of the fight in the time to blink his eye.

Also why is Wolverine closing in without making a sound matter? Shadow will know this outcome due to Snake's future being read and Snake will know via Soliton Radar.

The Shadow will know of your plans via Soul Reading and seeing the outcome of battle with his Precog.

Mental shields on Wolverine mean nothing to SOUL READING AND PRECOG!!!

Bucky EMP is a big threat, but not a problem when it has limited range and Shadow knows of it to warn Snake. Also EMP only works on active devices. As long the crap Snake uses is turned off (Claymores, C4, ect...) then Snake is good. Also snake does not rely on his Radar, which is all Bucky will EMP anyway.

Snake fall to Bucky or Wolverine? Wolverine is a good possibility due to his healing factor. Bucky? No way. Snake not only has way more in depth training, more years of service, and stated skills, but Bucky loses all the time to Super Humans like Cap. Snake is near equals to Cap's own stats and is as well trained, with a much higher IQ for fighting.

Sigh, how can you insist Wolverine immunity to magic and soul reading will make Wolverine a unknown factor to Shadows Precog, Soul Reading, and Clouding Minds?

You still gave me no defense how Bucky will fight at all when his mind is being Clouded. In fact, this is in all reality a 3 on one fight. Bucky will end up working for me pretty easy as he has no defense vs Clouding and been brainwashed easy enough a few times.

Hypnotize

The Shadow uses his ability to Hypnotize, Sway, or Command the Dead to accomplish goals with the power of his voice. Only the Mystically powered, or those protected by Fate are immune. Even the dead and dying are not immune to the commanding voice of The Shadow.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10Gallery image 11

1) Hypnotizes suggests Airfield Mechanic.

2) Sways Bar owner to his use.

3) Hypnotizes suggests to a British Major what he needs to do.

4-5) Hypnotizes Nazi into seeing the evil he had done to his mom.

6) Sways suggests a souless soldier of WW1 to kill himself.

7) Explains he can manipulate the Living and Dead if he has too.

8-9) Commands the dead pilot to live again and land them before fleeing into death.

10) Commands a dead soldier to return to camp to spread fear before striking.

11) Commands a dead assassin with a bullet in his head to reveal info.

Shadow makes his way to Bucky with that insane travel speed and makes Bucky work for him.

Honestly, Bucky is inferior to Shadow and Snake all around period. wolverine is your heaviest hitter and has no Magic Immunity, infact he been affected by it in Ghost Rider comics as I showed.

Avatar image for wolverine008
#22 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

Good debate so far. Seeing some lowballing already, but pretty good debate. Let me know when you open voting.

Avatar image for higorm
#23 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

nice, I will get to it tomorrow.

@wolverine08 said:

Good debate so far. Seeing some lowballing already, but pretty good debate. Let me know when you open voting.

Thanks. Lowballing, huh? imagine that :P As for the voting, I pledge myself to do it :)

Avatar image for pokergeist
#24 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: @wolverine08: well we all know Wolverine fans are just going to vote for HigorM regardless. ;)

Avatar image for wolverine008
#25 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: @wolverine08: well we all know Wolverine fans are just going to vote for HigorM regardless. ;)

I'll vote for whoever makes the best arguments/counters, and doesn't lowball :D

Avatar image for pokergeist
#26 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@higorm: @wolverine08: well we all know Wolverine fans are just going to vote for HigorM regardless. ;)

I'll vote for whoever makes the best arguments/counters, and doesn't lowball :D

Which means whoever has Wolverine will make the best argument since Wolverine is perfect fighter, better at MAs than Batman, and is Immune to any form of attack whether mental, physical, or Spiritual.

So as long I say Wolverine Solos my team with ease, then Im not low balling Wolverine ;)

Avatar image for wolverine008
#27 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:
@cadencev2 said:

@higorm: @wolverine08: well we all know Wolverine fans are just going to vote for HigorM regardless. ;)

I'll vote for whoever makes the best arguments/counters, and doesn't lowball :D

Which means whoever has Wolverine will make the best argument since Wolverine is perfect fighter, better at MAs than Batman, and is Immune to any form of attack whether mental, physical, or Spiritual.

So as long I say Wolverine Solos my team with ease, then Im not low balling Wolverine ;)

I didn't insinuate any of the statements you that you maid mate. Just do your best to not lowball. You tend to do so in your debates, and it is especially evident when you debate against Wolverine.

Avatar image for pokergeist
#28 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:
@cadencev2 said:

@higorm: @wolverine08: well we all know Wolverine fans are just going to vote for HigorM regardless. ;)

I'll vote for whoever makes the best arguments/counters, and doesn't lowball :D

Which means whoever has Wolverine will make the best argument since Wolverine is perfect fighter, better at MAs than Batman, and is Immune to any form of attack whether mental, physical, or Spiritual.

So as long I say Wolverine Solos my team with ease, then Im not low balling Wolverine ;)

I didn't insinuate any of the statements you that you maid mate. Just do your best to not lowball. You tend to do so in your debates, and it is especially evident when you debate against Wolverine.

I understand where it looks that, but many other people agree with me on my points, so it really comes down preference. Wolverine is highly inconsistent and victim of massive plot device for being uber unbeatable, or easily handled.

I wont bring up Ennis, if that helps.

Avatar image for wolverine008
#29 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:
@cadencev2 said:

@higorm: @wolverine08: well we all know Wolverine fans are just going to vote for HigorM regardless. ;)

I'll vote for whoever makes the best arguments/counters, and doesn't lowball :D

Which means whoever has Wolverine will make the best argument since Wolverine is perfect fighter, better at MAs than Batman, and is Immune to any form of attack whether mental, physical, or Spiritual.

So as long I say Wolverine Solos my team with ease, then Im not low balling Wolverine ;)

I didn't insinuate any of the statements you that you maid mate. Just do your best to not lowball. You tend to do so in your debates, and it is especially evident when you debate against Wolverine.

I understand where it looks that, but many other people agree with me on my points, so it really comes down preference. Wolverine is highly inconsistent and victim of massive plot device for being uber unbeatable, or easily handled.

I wont bring up Ennis, if that helps.

Well, we'll just see what you do, and I and other voters will decide if it's something that we like. And the plot device comment really doesn't make sense to me, but okay.

Avatar image for pokergeist
#30 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Plot device, you know, where Wolverine loses his healing factor, but has skill still in the old days. Then he recently loses his healing factor, and he is inept.

Plot Device.

Avatar image for wolverine008
#31 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Or maybe it is just writing from someone who has been noted to be going against what usually consistently happens with Wolverine? Anyways, I am not in the mood to do a Wolverine debate with you. I'll let Higor handle his thing.

Avatar image for pokergeist
#32 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Or maybe it is just writing from someone who has been noted to be going against what usually consistently happens with Wolverine? Anyways, I am not in the mood to do a Wolverine debate with you. I'll let Higor handle his thing.

Word. We have... what... 4-5 threads of Wolverine debates?

Avatar image for wolverine008
#33 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2: Or maybe it is just writing from someone who has been noted to be going against what usually consistently happens with Wolverine? Anyways, I am not in the mood to do a Wolverine debate with you. I'll let Higor handle his thing.

Word. We have... what... 4-5 threads of Wolverine debates?

Probably.

Avatar image for higorm
#34 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: @wolverine08:

No Caption Provided

Oh and Cadence, please stop being so whimper, I get really aggrieved with that bullsh!t talk of yours when you say "well we all know Wolverine fans are just going to vote for HigorM regardless."

When you say that you take all the credits from me in the case of a victory, like no matter how well I´ve debated I´ve just won because Wolverine possess many fans here. Enough with the discredit bro, let´s debate with dignity for god sakes! This is the second time you let me down bro, I hope there isn´t a third.

Avatar image for pokergeist
#35 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

@cadencev2: @wolverine08:

Oh and Cadence, please stop being so whimper, I get really aggrieved with that bullsh!t talk of yours when you say "well we all know Wolverine fans are just going to vote for HigorM regardless."

When you say that you take all the credits from me in the case of a victory, like no matter how well I´ve debated I´ve just won because Wolverine possess many fans here. Enough with the discredit bro, let´s debate with dignity for god sakes! This is the second time you let me down bro, I hope there isn´t a third.

Pffft, I gave up on winning in Votes against anyone who uses Mainstream comic characters. Certain people keep claiming I am a low baller, I scan Bomb, ect. Im content to get a vote or 2 these days.

Do your best to keep me from getting a vote or two.

Avatar image for higorm
#36 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

Pffft, I gave up on winning in Votes against anyone who uses Mainstream comic characters. Certain people keep claiming I am a low baller, I scan Bomb, ect. Im content to get a vote or 2 these days.

Frankly I do not understand why you are bringing your problems to the table, considering that I´ve never accused you of anything, quite the opposite, so I consider think all this talking needless, you accepted the challenge, now deal with it, so let´s keep ourselves focus on the battle shall we?


Do your best to keep me from getting a vote or two.

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for pokergeist
#37 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

Do your best to keep me from getting a vote or two.

No Caption Provided

Do not take it personnel, I was merely responding to Wolverine08, and has nothing to do with you Higor. Im not complaining and reserved with the knowledge I will not win in votes. I just want to debate and teach people knew things on other characters. Im just tired of being labeled a Low Baller or whatever because I think Wolverine is highly inconsistent and overrated, yet his fans jump me for it.

Been a problem last few months. So no need for you to take it personnel.

Avatar image for pokergeist
#38 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for higorm
#39 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: okay then, I just wanted yo make things clear. You'll have your reply soon.

Avatar image for wolverine008
#40 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

@cadencev2: @wolverine08:

Oh and Cadence, please stop being so whimper, I get really aggrieved with that bullsh!t talk of yours when you say "well we all know Wolverine fans are just going to vote for HigorM regardless."

When you say that you take all the credits from me in the case of a victory, like no matter how well I´ve debated I´ve just won because Wolverine possess many fans here. Enough with the discredit bro, let´s debate with dignity for god sakes! This is the second time you let me down bro, I hope there isn´t a third.

Pffft, I gave up on winning in Votes against anyone who uses Mainstream comic characters. Certain people keep claiming I am a low baller, I scan Bomb, ect. Im content to get a vote or 2 these days.

Do your best to keep me from getting a vote or two.

I still don't know why you attribute the criticisms people bring towards you during your debates is due to the fact that you are debating against mainstream characters with characters that are not every well known. @tparks is regularly debating with characters that are just as obscure as the ones that you against mainstream Marvel and DC characters, and he regularly picks up wins without people telling him that he is lowballing or scan dumping. Your particular debating style just irks some people and maybe you should try improve it.

Avatar image for pokergeist
#41 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

I still don't know why you attribute the criticisms people bring towards you during your debates is due to the fact that you are debating against mainstream characters with characters that are not every well known. @tparks is regularly debating with characters that are just as obscure as the ones that you against mainstream Marvel and DC characters, and he regularly picks up wins without people telling him that he is lowballing or scan dumping. Your particular debating style just irks some people and maybe you should try improve it.

Which leads me into the phrase, "My style is my style, and I cannot please everyone." Im fine with that.

Avatar image for higorm
#42 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

First off, thanks to Shadow's Read Souls and Precog he will trust Snake completely. Also Shadow has worked with a host of heroes at one time with no issues. He has worked and fought with no qualms next to Green Hornet, Kato, The Spider, Black Terror, and Zorro!

Okay, I get that, I was just poiting that your team work will not be as good as Wolverine and Bucky, considering that despite using those powers to discover who Snake is, the powers doesn´t give combat experience to them, since they have never worked together before. So thats the advantage my team possess from the start in this battle.

Secondly, Wolverine is the fastest person here? No. Wolverine may be the fastest runner, however Shadow has traverse cities and jump scaled 3 to 4 stories at a time with insane speeds.

Wolverine - Faster than the eye can follow?

Wolverine is not only the fastest runner but is also superior in terms of combat speed and reflexes. His mutant powers gives him and edge above anyone else here. The Shadow is extremely outclassed in every single aspect. Seeing those scans, your guy didn´t do anything Wolverine can do best. I will show you below what is a real jump. Snake isn´t a match for him either.

With his Superhuman Agility Wolverine's balance and agility as well as his body coordination is beyond the capabilities of a human being at its peak and is well into the superhuman range. He has also been seen to jump nearly 30ft in the air unassisted. The Enhanced Speed makes him able to move at low level superhuman speeds. He has attacked faster than the eye could follow and even Spider-Man briefly thought Wolverine was faster than he was in their first fight. His combat speed seems more enhanced then anything else, as he has frequently kept up with Spider-Man in combat, and blitzed people before they pull their trigger fingers. Add to that the Superhuman Reflexes so now he possesses enhanced reflexes. He has dodged bullets point blank, machine gun fire and even Cyclops' optic blasts. Most impressively, he was able to tag Speed-Demon in combat before. In top of all that, the Superhuman Stamina via healing factor is able to fight off fatigue toxins allowing Wolverine to exert himself for a long period of time before fatigue builds up. He has been able to fight in Omega Red's death spores for over 17 hours.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10

The Super Jump

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7
  • 1. Does a straight 40 foot vertial into the air to nail the head off of a sentinal sized robot
  • 2. Wolverine jumping around to the top of sentinels heads again
  • 3/4. Jumps to the top of a massively oversized T-Rex's head
  • 5. Leaps to the top of a Gigantisaurus’ head from quite some distance away
  • 6/7. Jumps ridiculously high to attack an airborne opponent and shows he is more agile then the looks.

Now that´s a real jump!

What good is all the skill in the world when Wolverine has forgotten most of it and is too lazy to employ it half the time?

Shadow is not only very skilled fighter, he can read every move Wolverine will make thanks to Soul Read and Precog. Let me explain how these powers work.

Forgotten most of it?! Are you freaking kidding me?

Wolverine - Fighting Serious

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8

Wolverine uses his martial skills in a way no one else can use. He possess the ability to performe counter-strikes, using either a punch, or a kick or a slash from his claw. I agree he is not going to use it the way martial arts teachers do, but when he throws a punch the enemy automatically gets his claws as an bonus. Like I said he´s been there for a long time, training and improving himself, which allowed him to master several martial arts. He is even deadly since he can rely on healing factor in combination with an adamantium skeleton, so that´s why he possess such great damage soak. As just presented, he also got an impressive agility, which makes him a bullet dodger, moving fast enough to turn himself into a blur so the human eye can´t follow. His animal senses allow him to track his enemies, see in complete darkness and even fight blind. Your team possess zero durability in this scenario since no gear from their universes would prevent them from being cut and stabbed by his claws, he manage to cut God-like characters before such as Thor.

The main reason he is seen fighting without using his martial prowess is because most of the time he just doesn´t need or doesn´t have to. I know there´s thousand of scans out there showing Wolverine taking bullets and blows and sword through his body to get a clear shot against his enemy, but there are also other tons of scan showing him dodging the same bullets, strikes from his enemies and so on. He knows that he can just tank the damage and keep fighting or going after his opponent. Why would he bother using h2h combat against meatshields as most of the time he is fighting them, but we all know he can and continuously is shown using martial skill, against the likes of Daredevil, Captain America, Iron Fist, Shang Chi, just to name a few but the list is extensive.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

As for Snake, let´s say that Wolverine already fought and bested a superior soldier, so he shouldn´t have much problem dealing with him, in fact, it´s the opposite you have to consider, Snake never fought someone on Logan´s level. Vamp isn´t a refference.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Shadow is not only very skilled fighter, he can read every move Wolverine will make thanks to Soul Read and Precog. Let me explain how these powers work.

I doubt that would work on him. First, he has never met someone like Wolverine before, someone he doesn´t know, from a completely different universe, with unique skills and powerset, together with the adamantium, which turns everything different. In one instance Wolverine proved himself before being able to nullify the advantage of telepathy since his body and mind can move as one, I know that your character doesn´t use telepathy but that ability work for his powers as well. In another, Wolverine’s Adamantium skeleton also helps resist against some forms of mind swapping as shown with Proteus in X-Men #126.

As you can see. Wolverine skill will be as effective as his fight against Gorgon, meanwhile shadow will know every weakness and ability Logan has. Useful no?

First, Gorgon possess a powerset to match and defeat Logan, something neither of your characters possess. In addition, Gorgon saw Wolverine fighting before engaging him in a fight, since his telepathy doesn't work against him. Wolverine was still able to tag him when they fought, and in addition to that, Wolverine also manage to tag Spider-Man who is also far superior to The Shadow and possess a danger sense which is a form of precognition. So The Shadow doesn´t bring something completely new to the table. We can also recall the fight against Mr. X, who couldn't read his movements after Logan discovered how to fight him avoiding his powers. Wolverine is well prepared to deal with him.

Solid snake has already fought a Wolverine like fighter as well. He was called Vamp!

Solid Snake beaten Vamp every time since their first encounter, nothing Wolverine is packing Skill wise or powers is not something Snake has not fought and won against.

I beg to differ. Vamp is not as skilled as Wolverine, doesn't have a healing factor to match him, not to mention the adamantium skeleton, so no, Snake as never fought someone like him before.

Every example you showed is simply Logans resistance to Psy power, even the Reality Warping was stated Psy Power in the narration box. Also Wolverine is so resistant to Magic power, then....

Yes, but as you said before, people with strong will can resist to it. His mental showings proves that he can resist it, since he was able to resist mind control before using nothing but his strong will, against the likes of Mesmero, Jean Grey, Mojo, Elektra, Psylocke, etc.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Here Blackheart uses Magic to mentally converse with Punisher, Wolverine, and Ketch at the same time. Wolverine goes as far to attack the Metal image in his head.

So you´re comparing Blackheart to The Shadow? Really??

Or how about the time Wolverine was mentally dominated by a Possession Demon?

That´s funny because, even for a thousands years old demon who has come back from death and the pits of hell, the horrors in Wolverine's mind are so horrible that Ogun can't sustain his demonic hold over Logan. Remember that Ogun is a demonic astral entity who was once Wolverine's Master and Dark Sorceror, so someone that knew him very well.

No Caption Provided

Shadow is not a Psychic, he is a mystic. His power is magical. Nothing shows me Wolverine is immune to Shaodw Mystic Misdirection any more than Wolverine was immune to Fantomex Misdirection. However if you wish to see feats of the Cloud Mens Minds....

Yes, I get that, but if a human person, with strong will was able to resist it at some point, Wolverine is more the capable to resist it, counting on his superhuman senses if necessary, that power will be insufficient to overcome his senses considering the level it operates.

Also why is Wolverine closing in without making a sound matter? Shadow will know this outcome due to Snake's future being read and Snake will know via Soliton Radar.

The Shadow will know of your plans via Soul Reading and seeing the outcome of battle with his Precog.

Mental shields on Wolverine mean nothing to SOUL READING AND PRECOG!!!

That´s incorrect. Your own scans proves it. The Shadow can´t be 100% sure he will see or predict the outcome of someone, he said that one day one man was a blank, this man could be Wolverine here. Also, the other character "says that we cannot see all ends" . So you are relying too much on abilities that doesn´t grant him all scenarios or possibilities, he can´t predict everything, he can't say he will discover everything about Wolverine or predict his next move, something Spider-Man couldn´t do with his own precog ability via danger sense. Your guy can be mistaken or get an parcial vision of the picture that could led him to a uncertain path, since he is strongly believing in it, he could very well fall into Wolverine´s claws.

Bucky EMP is a big threat, but not a problem when it has limited range and Shadow knows of it to warn Snake. Also EMP only works on active devices. As long the crap Snake uses is turned off (Claymores, C4, ect...) then Snake is good. Also snake does not rely on his Radar, which is all Bucky will EMP anyway.

You are wrong again. Snake doesn´t know about Bucky´s arm. He doesn´t have reasons to stay away from him, since his gunfire won´t work at all against a bullet timer character using a vibranium shield wearing a bullet-proof suit. Snake would have to engage him in a close combat fight and that´s where BuckyCap will have the chance to use the EMP against him, neutralizing most of his gear. Also, if necessary, Barnes can provide range since he can remove the arm and controle it with his mind to strike Snake by surprise, using either EMP or eletrical shock against him, I´m sure he won´t expect that.

Snake fall to Bucky or Wolverine? Wolverine is a good possibility due to his healing factor. Bucky? No way. Snake not only has way more in depth training, more years of service, and stated skills, but Bucky loses all the time to Super Humans like Cap. Snake is near equals to Cap's own stats and is as well trained, with a much higher IQ for fighting.

Good possibility? Wolverine would tear Snake apart, he is superior to him in every single way except maybe for markismanship, but that doesn´t matter since he can´t take him down with gunfire. Bucky is more than capable to at least match Snake, considering he dealt with stronger foes before, many villains from Steve´s gallery, which he defeated with less trouble, was also skilled enough to neutralize attacks from the likes of Daredevil and Hawkeye. He´s packing gear that make him superior to Solid in terms of durability, there´s nothing he can use against him offensively. Bucky already proved to be Cap´s equal with his feats.

You still gave me no defense how Bucky will fight at all when his mind is being Clouded. In fact, this is in all reality a 3 on one fight. Bucky will end up working for me pretty easy as he has no defense vs Clouding and been brainwashed easy enough a few times.

Don´t need. The Shadow won´t have time to mess with Bucky because he got bigger problems to deal with, which is Wolverine. Bucky has never been brainwashed in the middle of a fight, not to mention that Barnes already dealt with a foe similar to The Shadow before. I´m talking about The Man With No Face, who has the abilties to fly, go intangible, and travel through shadows. When he passes through people while intangible it causes the person to feel extreme pain. While intangible his only weakness is electricity, but when he is tangible he is just a normal person. Bucky fought him and Batroc the Leaper at the same time while was being attacked by a Apache helicopter and cannon fodder, and did pretty well. Bucky eletrical discharg would be devastanting to The Shadow considering his lack of durability.

No Caption Provided

Bucky is skilled and possess superior durability to hold Snake for enought time until Wolverine manage to kill The Shadow, who will find himself impotent against him and by the time he discovers his powers won´t work on him it´s gonna be to late, all that will be left is blood withing the cape, turning the battle into a 2x1 fight where Snake stands no chance of winning.

Avatar image for pokergeist
#43 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: I see some major flaws in this argument, I think you are not too familiar with my characters. Time to address that.

Okay, I get that, I was just poiting that your team work will not be as good as Wolverine and Bucky, considering that despite using those powers to discover who Snake is, the powers doesn´t give combat experience to them, since they have never worked together before. So thats the advantage my team possess from the start in this battle.

Yes, your team has advantage in working together, however my team has 2 things going for them.

1) They shown multiple times to work well with others in Random battles.

2) Shadow has Misdirection working on Bucky and Logan.

Wolverine - Faster than the eye can follow?

Wolverine is not only the fastest runner but is also superior in terms of combat speed and reflexes. His mutant powers gives him and edge above anyone else here. The Shadow is extremely outclassed in every single aspect. Seeing those scans, your guy didn´t do anything Wolverine can do best. I will show you below what is a real jump. Snake isn´t a match for him either.

With his Superhuman Agility Wolverine's balance and agility as well as his body coordination is beyond the capabilities of a human being at its peak and is well into the superhuman range. He has also been seen to jump nearly 30ft in the air unassisted. The Enhanced Speed makes him able to move at low level superhuman speeds. He has attacked faster than the eye could follow and even Spider-Man briefly thought Wolverine was faster than he was in their first fight. His combat speed seems more enhanced then anything else, as he has frequently kept up with Spider-Man in combat, and blitzed people before they pull their trigger fingers. Add to that the Superhuman Reflexes so now he possesses enhanced reflexes. He has dodged bullets point blank, machine gun fire and even Cyclops' optic blasts. Most impressively, he was able to tag Speed-Demon in combat before. In top of all that, the Superhuman Stamina via healing factor is able to fight off fatigue toxins allowing Wolverine to exert himself for a long period of time before fatigue builds up. He has been able to fight in Omega Red's death spores for over 17 hours.

Wolverine has good feats, no one is arguing that, however is his speed superior? No.

Shadow I shown is more than Bullet Speed as his fight with Light showed.

What about the Super Human Snake? Some feat on his Speed.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10

1) Old Snake dodges Crying Wolf's rail gun shot after it was fired.

2) Snake on his back dodges the mach speed sword attacks from Cyborg Ninja Grey Wolf. Snake has dodges many mach speed sword attacks from grey Wolf.

3-4) Snake regularly dodges Liquids Machine Gun from the Hind D. Same Hind that Liquid use to shoot down two F-16 Fighter Jets in a snowstorm!

5-6) Snake dodges two supersonic missiles that were only yards away from him. then tanked the explosion shock wave.

7) Old Snake dodges a Missile coming for his head.

8) Solid Snake back flips over a bullet shot at him by the worlds premier ace gunman, Revolver Ocelot. Snake was ambushed too.

9) Snake moves his head out of the path of this .45 bullet after the bullet was shot.

10) Snake blitzes and surprise attack Vamp who deflects bullets of his knives as well has muscle reading ability.

So Wolverine whose best feat is faster than the human eye can follow and dodging bullets (Mach 1+ feats) better than Snake who reacted and dodged a Rail Gun (Mach 3+) after it was fired? Or reacts to the Cyborg Ninja's (Mach 2+ being) attacks?

C'mon now......

Wolverine - Fighting Serious

Wolverine uses his martial skills in a way no one else can use. He possess the ability to performe counter-strikes, using either a punch, or a kick or a slash from his claw. I agree he is not going to use it the way martial arts teachers do, but when he throws a punch the enemy automatically gets his claws as an bonus. Like I said he´s been there for a long time, training and improving himself, which allowed him to master several martial arts. He is even deadly since he can rely on healing factor in combination with an adamantium skeleton, so that´s why he possess such great damage soak. As just presented, he also got an impressive agility, which makes him a bullet dodger, moving fast enough to turn himself into a blur so the human eye can´t follow. His animal senses allow him to track his enemies, see in complete darkness and even fight blind. Your team possess zero durability in this scenario since no gear from their universes would prevent them from being cut and stabbed by his claws, he manage to cut God-like characters before such as Thor.

The main reason he is seen fighting without using his martial prowess is because most of the time he just doesn´t need or doesn´t have to. I know there´s thousand of scans out there showing Wolverine taking bullets and blows and sword through his body to get a clear shot against his enemy, but there are also other tons of scan showing him dodging the same bullets, strikes from his enemies and so on. He knows that he can just tank the damage and keep fighting or going after his opponent. Why would he bother using h2h combat against meatshields as most of the time he is fighting them, but we all know he can and continuously is shown using martial skill, against the likes of Daredevil, Captain America, Iron Fist, Shang Chi, just to name a few but the list is extensive.

As for Snake, let´s say that Wolverine already fought and bested a superior soldier, so he shouldn´t have much problem dealing with him, in fact, it´s the opposite you have to consider, Snake never fought someone on Logan´s level. Vamp isn´t a refference.

Wolverine is a great fighter, yet..... in his recent run he is shown to depend too much on his healing factor rather than skill. On top of this Wolverine has to my knowledge had been stated by his own teacher to be Lazy in employing skill.

You say "When Wolverine is serious...." means Wolverine may not take the fight Serious as you claimed. I can show more feats of lack of super top tier skill in battle than you can show super top tier skill.

He is fighting the top tier skilled fighters of their own worlds that is Solid Snake and Shadow.

Examples.

The Shadow's Skill

Shadow is insanely skilled fighter that was well known for his skill during Wolrd War 1, his time as crime lord of the Chinese Criminal Underworld, and even by the standards of Mystic Tibetan Monks.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

The Shadow takes down Spanish soldiers in hand to hand for a get away.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

The Shadow takes down a group of knee breakers with no trouble.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

The Shadow faces Raja, a man with the same powers as him. Raja and Shadow literally cancel each other powers out. Yet with no Mystic Powers, the Shadow takes out his gang, then faces Raja in powerless sword battle to the death. Raja who was also trained by the Mystic Tibetan Monks like The Shadow.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

The Shadow encounters the Green Hornet and Kato. Shadow easily takes down the Martial Arts expert Kato with one move. Probaly do to Soul Reading, Precog, or both. Then heads off the fleeing criminal to blow him away.

Here is three more examples of the shadow facing a Woman who is immune to his powers of Soul Reading and Precog.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

The Shadow takes out a couple of soldiers, then takes on the very skilled Black Sparrow who he beats handily in a straight up fight.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

The Shadow takes on Black Sparrow and others. Although she gains the advantage, she loses it right on the Shadow's scheduled, as he foresaw the opening he would have with his Precog.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

The Shadow final battle with the Black Sparrow in H2H on a castles edge. He not only beats her handily, he shows off incredible agility while doing it.

I already showed Shadow facing the Light who was the best Swordsmen in France with his bare hands.

The Shadow is a Insane combatant. To try and say he is not skilled enough to compete with his Precog and Soul reading abilities is laughable.

I also see your not impressed with Solid Snake.

Solid Snake also decimated super human martial artist like Liquid Snake and Solidus.

No Caption Provided

Liquid is no freaking joke! Solid snake final battle was with his equally trained clone brother Liquid Snake. Before snake hand to hand Liquid, he had already ran a gauntlet of super humans and half the Genome Army. He even had to help beat Rex first!

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Snakes final showdown is with Liquid Snake piloting Rex. The new Metal Gear. look at these stats!

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9

Rex is a beast of a machine. He actually fights the thing in the equally canon Twin Snakes and MGS games before Grey fox saves him. Firing multiple Stingers before Grey Fox intervenes. All these are approved canon by Kojima.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

After Rex goes down Snake Blacks out and wakes up. Here he bests Liquid in H2H. What makes this impressive the most is Snake has been wounded, tortured, and fighting a gauntlet of Super Humans and still has the stamina, skill, and strength to beat Liquid in hand to hand.

No Caption Provided

Finally we have Solidus. Another clone, and one with as much skill and experience as Snake himself. Solidus has been starting and waging wars for years while Solid and Liquid were both training. On top of this he is wearing a Exo Suit that enhances his stats far beyond Snakes own.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Solidus suit and skill is enough swipe down Heavy fire from Metal Gear Ray! Just to show how fast and beastly he is.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

Solidus easily beats Raiden. Snake with the sword, a weapon we know he is not the best with, defeats Solidus who has his Cyborg Ninja Suit to amp his already Super Human stats. We know Snake was stripped of all weapon before this, so he must had use the sword.

So Solid is a push over after beating Solidus, Liquid, and Vamp? Do you believe you can sell that story?

I doubt that would work on him. First, he has never met someone like Wolverine before, someone he doesn´t know, from a completely different universe, with unique skills and powerset, together with the adamantium, which turns everything different. In one instance Wolverine proved himself before being able to nullify the advantage of telepathy since his body and mind can move as one, I know that your character doesn´t use telepathy but that ability work for his powers as well. In another, Wolverine’s Adamantium skeleton also helps resist against some forms of mind swapping as shown with Proteus in X-Men #126.

A lot of this is hard to sell BS, and you know it.

First you said Telepathy again... STOP IT!!!!!!!! Its Soul Reading, not Mind Reading! Its getting aggravating at this point :/

Second, Wolverine is from another Universe, so what? What prove does Wolverine have he will be immune to Shadow in this clear cut neutral universe? Thats like arguing Flash cannot speed steal against a Marvel guy, because Marvel guy if from another Universe. That is a weak argument at best.

I also proven above here...

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Here Blackheart uses Magic to mentally converse with Punisher, Wolverine, and Ketch at the same time. Wolverine goes as far to attack the Mental image in his head.

No Caption Provided

Mentally dominated by demon.

That Wolverine can and has been tricked via illusions as well mind controlled by magic. Facts are right there.

Wolverine has nothing to suggest he will resist Cloud Men's Minds in any degree much less be immune to the Soul Read or Precog.

First, Gorgon possess a powerset to match and defeat Logan, something either of your characters possess. In addition, Gorgon saw Wolverine fighting before engaging him in a fight, since his telepathy doesn't work against him. Wolverine was still able to tag him when they fought, and in addition to that, Wolverine also manage to tag Spider-Man who is also far superior to The Shadow and possess a danger sense which is a form of precognition. So The Shadow doesn´t bring something completely new to the table. We can also recall the fight against Mr. X, who couldn't read his movements after Logan discovered how to fight him avoiding his powers. Wolverine is well prepared to deal with him.

Gorgon Telepathy did not work, yet Wolverine needed TP proof devices? How does that work?

Spider Man Danger Sense is often ignored half the time by spider Man. Only few time when Spider Man does Way of the Spider does his Spider Sense really paid off. Also Wolverine has NEVER beaten Peter Parker Spider Man, so bad example on your part. I mean Punisher tagged Spider Man before.

Shadow has Cloud Men's Minds, Precog that extends into decades of foresight, and Soul Reading. As well superhuman reaction time. Wolverine also has NO CLUE of Shadow's powers and will be unprepared for it.

I beg to differ. Vamp is not as skilled as Wolverine, doesn't have a healing factor to match him, not to mention the adamantium skeleton, so no, Snake as never fought someone like him before.

Vamp is highly skilled as I showed, insanely skilled, and has Deadpool level Healing Factor which is better than Logans.

He fought and nearly killed Cyborg Raiden twice..... twice.....

Yes, but as you said before, people with strong will can resist to it. His mental showings proves that he can resist it, since he was able to resist mind control before using nothing but his strong will, against the likes of Mesmero, Jean Grey, Mojo, Elektra, Psylocke, etc.

So you´re comparing Blackheart to The Shadow? Really??

That´s funny because, even for a thousands years old demon who has come back from death and the pits of hell, the horrors in Wolverine's mind are so horrible that Ogun can't sustain his demonic hold over Logan. Remember that

Ogun

is a demonic astral entity who was once Wolverine's Master and Dark Sorceror, so someone that knew him very well.

He resisted, which is great, Im not Mind Controlling, I am misdirecting and illusion casting.

Blackheart in the feat I just showed was when Blackheart was very weak, dying, and was able to be harmed by mortal weapons. Yet in his most weaken state, he fooled Wolverine with his magic.

Yes, the fact remains he was able to fully dominate Wolverine for a time. Why cannot Shadow misdirect Wolverine then?

Wolverine is susceptible to magic, period.

Yes, I get that, but if a human person, with strong will was able to resist it at some point, Wolverine is more the capable to resist it, counting on his superhuman senses if necessary, that power will be insufficient to overcome his senses considering the level it operates.

No one has resisted the Cloud Men's Minds with their will, only Limit how many people Shadow can put under. Only one time I seen so far where Shadow was unable to Cloud Minds was when he had a whole city block watching Shadow and his Mask team fight Law Enforcement. He could not make his team go unnoticed with so many minds to be clouded. In this fight all he has to focuse on is 2 people. He was also able to Cloud the Minds when Kato use a Smoke Bomb which helped Shadow cast Cloud Minds on those closest to him and his team.

Solid snake does have Flash Bangs.

No Caption Provided

Like that.

I also showed Shadow Clouding the Minds of a Psychic power that has mind controlled a small army! Wolverine and Bucky alone are not enough to resist it with any real degree of success.

That´s incorrect. Your own scans proves it. The Shadow can´t be 100% sure he will see or predict the outcome of someone, he said that one day one man was a blank, this man could be Wolverine here. Also, the other character "says that we cannot see all ends" . So you are relying too much on abilities that doesn´t grant him all scenarios or possibilities, he can´t predict everything, he can't say he will discover everything about Wolverine or predict his next move, something Spider-Man couldn´t do with his own precog ability via danger sense. Your guy can be mistaken or get an parcial vision of the picture that could led him to a uncertain path, since he is strongly believing in it, he could very well fall into Wolverine´s claws.

The problem with your counter is context. Later at the end of the comic run, it was theorized by Shadow that the Blank Man was done by Fate on purpose to force Shadow back to Tibet, and kill Raja who had killed the Mystic Monks there. Otherwise Shadow would never known of Raja and his abuse of Fate's power.

He cannot see all ends, only the immediate likely ones. This is always a boon. Look at my scans again, Shadow foresaw the death of a enemy he let go knowing full well that said enemy would die in the Hiroshima Atomic Bomb few years later. That is accuracy!

The only people who are blanks to Shadow is Mystics and Soulless people.

You are wrong again. Snake doesn´t know about Bucky´s arm. He doesn´t have reasons to stay away from him, since his gunfire won´t work at all against a bullet timer character using a vibranium shield wearing a bullet-proof suit. Snake would have to engage him in a close combat fight and that´s where BuckyCap will have the chance to use the EMP against him, neutralizing most of his gear. Also, if necessary, Barnes can provide range since he can remove the arm and controle it with his mind to strike Snake by surprise, using either EMP or eletrical shock against him, I´m sure he won´t expect that.

Snake will know what Bucky can do as long he and Shadow are within shouting distance. Shadow was informing the Mask crew all the time what was up in combat.

Another thing is Snake's MMO is stealth and range before close combat. snake will be setting C4 and Clamores all around where he can while Bucky is under the Cloud Men's Minds.

Also what gear is Neutralized? Snake has nothing Electrical depended on except his Nanites, Missile Launcher, Thermnals, and Soliton Radar? Who cares if that goes? He really does not need any of that to win.

Good possibility? Wolverine would tear Snake apart, he is superior to him in every single way except maybe for markismanship, but that doesn´t matter since he can´t take him down with gunfire. Bucky is more than capable to at least match Snake, considering he dealt with stronger foes before, many villains from Steve´s gallery, which he defeated with less trouble, was also skilled enough to neutralize attacks from the likes of Daredevil and Hawkeye. He´s packing gear that make him superior to Solid in terms of durability, there´s nothing he can use against him offensively. Bucky already proved to be Cap´s equal with his feats.

Wolverine is no way superior to Snake in skill, it is very arguable since Wolverine has current showings that he forgets skill, too lazy to use it, and relies on his healing factor too much. All these things are stated in Wolverines own comics and current.

Also Snake Durability is pretty top notch.

Some on Durability

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10Gallery image 11Gallery image 12Gallery image 13

1-3) Solid Snake is tortured with high volts of electricity till his body is smoking. Gets freed moments later and is back in the fight right after that.

4) Snake gets hit with a crap ton of Semtex. Survives to cause mayhem.

5-6) Snake's rope is shot by Sniper Wolf. He free falls a couple stories onto the ground below. No broken bones or ruptured organs, he simply rolls over with sniper rifle out.

7-10) Old Snake is already in bad shape, but manages to crawl and drag himself for 5 minuets through a Microwave hallway with heat so intense that parts of Snake's gear explode from the temperature. Snake makes it out smoking, pukes everywhere, and forces himself up and onward. Then Snake battles a host of sentry bots after all this.

11-13) Snake is hit by the forces of a Tank Shell twice. He simply shakes of the blast force that would kill a platoon of men.

No Caption Provided

out of the 100s of Marines on this Oil Tanker that sinks, Snake is the only one to swim out of it, and swim to shore through the ocean currents to land. He does it undetected as well. Ocelot and the Cypher drones monitoring the accident did not even detect Snake's survival.

Don´t need. The Shadow won´t have time to mess with Bucky because he got bigger problems to deal with, which is Wolverine. Bucky has never been brainwashed in the middle of a fight, not to mention that Barnes already dealt with a foe similar to The Shadow before. I´m talking about The Man With No Face, who has the abilties to fly, go intangible, and travel through shadows. When he passes through people while intangible it causes the person to feel extreme pain. While intangible his only weakness is electricity, but when he is tangible he is just a normal person. Bucky fought him and Batroc the Leaper at the same time while was being attacked by a Apache helicopter and cannon fodder, and did pretty well. Bucky eletrical discharg would be devastanting to The Shadow considering his lack of durability.

The Man with No Face is nothing like Shadow. At all. In anyway.

  • Man With No Face has Electrical powers, shadow travel, intangibility, and flies.
  • Shadow has Cloud Men's Minds, Precognition, Soul reading, and Hypnosis powers.

WTH!?

As for for Bucky beating Shadow, how? Bucky will not only be easily under Cloud men's Minds, but Shadow will know everything Bucky can do.

How does Bucky manage to avoid Hypnosis that Shadow easily performs on even the strongest willed people?

Bucky is skilled and possess superior durability to hold Snake for enought time until Wolverine manage to kill The Shadow, who will find himself impotent against him and by the time he discovers his powers won´t work on him it´s gonna be to late, all that will be left is blood withing the cape, turning the battle into a 2x1 fight where Snake stands no chance of winning.

Almost everything you said is low balling Solid snake skill, or outright ignoring Shadow's mystic power set.

The Real Scenario

Shaodw Clouds your teams minds with ease from the start. Then he soul reads the team while seeing the probable futures.

Solid Snake is planting C4 and Clamores everywhere, blowing Wolverine around with ease. Shadow makes his way to Bucky just as fast as Wolverine makes it to where Shadow was. Hypnotizes Bucky onto my team. Now it is 3 on 1. Wolverine meanwhile is still suffering explosions with his healing factor constantly being taxed.

Shadow realizes through Soul Reading heart damage drops Wolverine. Bucky sacrifices himself to do Shadow Bidding.

No Caption Provided

Like this man did for Shadow lol.Telling Bucky to jam his arms under Wolverine rib cage and pull his heart out. Or Snake and Shadow can find a bullet into Wolverines heart. Many people manage weapons in between Wolverine ribs for heart stabs, like Kaine and Deadpool.

You simply cannot say Shadow and Snake cannot keep up with Wolverine win feats show they can. Bucky so far is total non factor as he is easily under Shadow's powers.

No Caption Provided

His puppet.

Avatar image for wolverine008
#44 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: I know you ain't going to let Cadence get away with the incorrect information he made about made about Logan's skill are you? :D

Avatar image for wolverine008
#46 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

@higorm: I know you ain't going to let Cadence get away with the incorrect information he made about made about Logan's skill are you? :D

You mean the correct Info that @god_spawn explained to me? Im pretty sure he told me Wolverine forgets certain skill he had learned from time to time, and the current run seems to reflect this. He gets lazy. It makes sense too.

You said in your post that he has forgotten most of his skill, and that is completely inaccurate. He has decades of skill has learned and if he had forgotten most of it he wouldn't even be that effective in fights. He has forgotten bits and pieces of what he has learned at times, but he relearns and even adds more to his arsenal. Most recent example of this was with Manifest Destiny in 2008. Yes, he has shown to be a bit lazy when choosing to apply his skill, but he's been noted to usually busts it out when he is confronted by skilled fighters (Which you have insinuated that your team is.) and his trakced record against skilled fighters supports this.

You really didn't seem to get the full gist about the nuances regarding Logan's skill to be honest.

Avatar image for wolverine008
#48 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

@higorm: I know you ain't going to let Cadence get away with the incorrect information he made about made about Logan's skill are you? :D

You mean the correct Info that @god_spawn explained to me? Im pretty sure he told me Wolverine forgets certain skill he had learned from time to time, and the current run seems to reflect this. He gets lazy. It makes sense too.

You said in your post that he has forgotten most of his skill, and that is completely inaccurate. He has decades of skill has learned and if he had forgotten most of it he wouldn't even be that effective in fights. He has forgotten bits and pieces of what he has learned at times, but he relearns and even adds more to his arsenal. Most recent example of this was with Manifest Destiny in 2008. Yes, he has shown to be a bit lazy when choosing to apply his skill, but he's been noted to usually busts it out when he is confronted by skilled fighters (Which you have insinuated that your team is.)

You really didn't seem to get the full gist about the nuances regarding Logan's skill to be honest.

Well I never get the inconsistent feats of Logan to be honest :P

Then be careful about what you note if you don't know the full story.

Avatar image for wolverine008
#50 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Meanwhile Iron Fist has dealt with Wolverine and the entire X-Men roster at one time.

That was during the 80s when canonically, Wolverine hadn't even received all his current training that he has under his belt. When Logan did have all his training and went up againsy Iron Fist, we all saw what happened in that sparring match.

IMO he beaten Shang Chi and Iron Fist due to his Claws and Healing Factor (Shang Chi) and Healing Factor with Adamantium Bones (Chi Less Iron Fist).

GodSpawn already completely explained to you why that sparring match was due to skill and you couldn't refute him.

IMO, Wolverine being the top highest ranking MAs is not warranted when its more do to his powers as Black Panther noted in the recent run of a healing factor less Wolverine. That makes sense to me.

Yup, that is why he stomped a fresh Captain America in Origins when his healing factor was barely working due to exhaustion and getting cut by the Murusama blade. What you don't seem to grasp is that Paul Cornell's Wolverine run is inconsistent with has been noted multipletimes about Wolverine's skill and the nuances surrounding it. Seeing as how you have noted that you want to go with consistency regarding mainstream comics, this should make sense to you. Looking at Wolverine's performances against top tier fighters then and now even backs this up. Captain America beat him up badly in the middle of World War II before Logan had receive all his training. When Logan came back with all his training, he stomped Steve despite being in an extremely weakened state. Shang Chi owned him in another moment before World War II. When Logan came back with his training, he absolutely manhandled him. Iron Fist owned Wolverine and the X-Men before Logan's training. After his extensive training, Logan beat Iron Fist in a sparring match. Logan's wins against top tier fighters are due to skill. His healing factor and adamantium skeleton are what grant him wins over bricks to be honest.