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#1 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
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VS

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Comics vs Manga match up.

  • Standard Gear.
  • Battle to the Death.
  • In Character.
  • Random Encounter.
  • Start 100 feet away here.
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#2 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14555 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Fine I'll give some character info. Feel free to start while I set up. (~ locomojis.com/whacky/23 ~)

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#4 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity said:

(~ locomojis.com/whacky/23 ~)

WTH is this?

Anyway, I will give a quick break down of said characters.

Luther Strode is a High Schooler who had a pretty abusive life. He gets a Book called the Hercules Method. This book teaches the principles of aligning your Mind, Body, and Spirit to a single purpose to achieve super human results. This Method however seems to be rooted in the art of Murder however.

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"Talents." As the ending goes from that last scan. People with Talents manifest the same abilities, but at different levels of mastery. Luther is a prodigy commented on constantly by Librarian, and Binder that he may rival the greatest Cain himself.

The Talents associated with Luther and Librarian are as follows.

  • Super Strength.
  • Super Speed.
  • Super Healing.
  • Immune to Pain.
  • X-Ray of anything made Flesh.
  • Precognition of 1000 moves ahead.
  • Insane Accuracy.

Luther and Librarian also been in the art of murder for many years themselves. Both show high showings of skill in the comics.

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#5 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14555 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Assuming you can't see it, it is my new emotes.

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Caerula Sanguis

A vampire type-V mutant (having the type - v virus)

Mutant abilities

  • Super strength
  • Super reaction speed
  • "neural pulse flow sensing" basic mumbo jumbo to say precog (not 1000 scenarios tho)
  • minor healing factor increases with blood drinking.

Her strength is enough shake Alita's core/spine in her Imaginos body which is far superior to steel but it doesn't do any lasting damage. Although it jogs a memory.

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Also clash with Victor while deviating the surroundings.

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.

Super sonic speed is a given seeing how she can dodge Alita's punch avoiding being turned to paste & reflects bullets off her sword

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As for her precog basic explanation.

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As for factor it kept her alive 55 years & heals he missing arm without nourishment only needing blood of a few men.

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She very tactical using every move to set up for a kill shot.

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Zazie

Cyborg built for combat abilities

  • Superhuman reaction speed
  • Superhuman durability
  • Walking arsenal everything form thermite, osmium bullet, nets, land mines etc. She also crates her own ammunition but one time showings are not standard
  • a degree of superhuman strength not so much as shown but considering cyborg body noted

Reaction hope you don't mind me copying pasting (can't stop me)

Zazie's opponent running around near/at the speed of sound while throwing weapons Zazie casually dodges.

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Not once but repeated times.

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Durability

Enough to be suspended in mono-molecular wire until super human strength is applied.

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This wire cut things with just the touch.

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Tank point blank grenade.

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Stands up after hit by this shock wave. Although disoriented.

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Then hit again gets up & fires back.

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But her best durability feat is surviving for one month with vibrations (equal to a small caliber hand gun) rattling through her skull. The fact that when the doctors tried to touch her their equipment & hands would explode makes me believe it.

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#6 Posted by i_like_swords (26071 posts) - - Show Bio

First time I've looked forward to something including manga.

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#7 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14555 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14555 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: In case notification didn't go through.

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#9 Edited by i_like_swords (26071 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity said:

@i_like_swords: I consider that a compliment, so thanks.

It was one. I don't normally like manga/anime but you've intrigued me about Last Order. :D

But yeah, sorry, on with your debate.

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#10 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Alrighty, time to get the A Game on.

I am impressed with the speed, but nothing I do not think Luther of Librarian can counter.

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Luther is as I said a weak skinny kid who mastered the teachings of the Hercules Method. In turn he gain insane stats as part of his Talents.

Speed

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Lets look at the speed of the Hercules Method.

1) Stated by Luther himself to dance between bullets.

2) Faster than Humans can track.

3) Literally travels across a city in a minuet.

4) Dodges a room packed with gun fire.

5) Blitzes Mercenaries and does more dodging of massive gunfire.

6) Reacts to multiple tranq fire from Binder, another being who uses the Hercules Method.

This is Jack the Ripper.

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7) Jack is super fast, he regularly deflects bullets with his knives at point range, and leaves sonic booms on his attacks, as well after images. Luther counters easy.

8) Here Luther takes it a step forward, he counters Binder, and the faster Jack at the same time.

9) Again reacts to Jacks attacks on is girlfriend Petra. Notice the background. The derbies and the dead body are flying from the force of the wake that was left by Jack's speed.

10) Here Luther uses his Super Speed to leave double Sonic Boom Clouds where he breaks the sound barrier twice. Mach+, or Super Sonic.

Then we have the Strength.

Strength

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Luther is somewhere between 10-20 tons honestly.

1) Luther casually rips through solid doors and craters walls.

2) More Casually walking through solid walls.

3) Rips open a security gate design to stop dead ramming vehicles.

4) This is a good one, from a position of no leverage, and awkward position at that, Luther rips apart the multiple Chains and Bindings design to hold people with his powers.

5) Throws this human across the street and through a brick wall.

6) Craters the entire floor of this mansion with a slam.

7-8) This is actually Jack cratering the concrete floor of a mall, however he stated Luther is the stronger.

Then we have Durability of these guys.

Durability

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1) Luther shows the Talents allow you to catch Bullets with your muscles.

2) Uses the soft tissue of his Intenstins to strangle a Multi toner Librarian by making his Intestines as hard as steel.

3-4) This giant explosion did not even kill Binder, the weakest of the 4 characters in the Hercules Method.

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The Librarian is like wise insane fast, close to Luther as their fight showed with each other.

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1-2) The Librarian Speed is more than enough to cause Luther to accidentally kill his own mother, then Librarian manhandle Luther after that.

3) Here, with a large caliber bullet a foot and a half away from his face, the Librarian tilts his head to the side in reaction casually.

Examples of his strength show he is as strong as Luther.

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1-2) A clash of him and Luther cause a solid built Warehouse to fall on top of them in seconds.

3) Librarian rips through a Police Van.

4) Librarian punches casually through the inches Steel Bulk head of this Ship. These things are design to withstand explosions, and insane deep pressure with no damage.

Librarian Durability is enough to take any hit from Luther and vice versa.

With these raw stats (I have not yet touched on the other special abilities or skill yet) should be enough to win the day.

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#11 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14555 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Alrighty, time to get the A Game on.

Great this wouldn't be as interesting with out it.

Opening Strategy

So going off what is shown what has been show so far. I would say Caerula is stronger in striking than your team, & faster in reflexes. Zazie should be even in reflexes & durability being higher.

My team has the advantage of weapons & with that range.

Zazie

Since they start 100 feet Zazie will start off with her best. First shooting grenades steering your team while her other set of hands throw down mono-molecular wire nets to trip up your team & block off paths to mine. They are remote detonated and springs fast enough to trap characters in your teams combat speed range.

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Plus your team has no idea what mono-molecular wire is so a blitz hitting it will crate meat bits.

While your team is finding a way to get close (if they can) Zazie will ready her osmium rounds, grenades & shotgun. Things she doesn't use unless the opponents are close.

Zazie's osmium rounds break through depleted uranium. Being slow bullets bullets this is where her expert marksman shine. Doing this as hiding rounds in the shadow of other rounds & catching Rakan's super sonic a$$ point blank after he has thrust his hips.

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When Zazie is incapable of tagging her opponent at close range she will tank her own grenades. I've shown Zazie tanking a grenade.

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But this isn't a problem seeing as Caerula is watching Zazie's back & your team isn't above Zazie's reflexes.

Caerula Sanguis

Caerula won't be standing still. She will attack while covering Zazie's back not everything will go off without a hitch.

Your thinking what does she have up her sleeves?

Just a hundred+ knives. The knives weren't for show they set up Alita's death (note scan set below)

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Once your team is in striking distance she will go to work with her twin blades.

Your team may be fast but not fast enough. Alita specifically states Caerula's striking speed isn't even one third of Alita's top speed. But Alita has all the cuts not only that Caerula wasn't even touched.

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By Alita stating she is faster than Caerula would put Alita above your team but she has feats to back this up.

Even further down the line of the fight Alita loses, only due to plot does she survive & I'll even fill you in on that (Note knives carved out the symbol for death)

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This is the plot listen up. Alita had a traumatic memory of being sliced up by Caerula before and with that froze. The kicker is both saw a premonition of Altia's death.

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Considering Caerula sliced up Alita, means your team with steel like features, can't make contact with these blades without being meat bits.

(~ locomojis.com/whacky/3 ~)

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Finish him

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#12 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14555 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity:

Opening Strategy

So going off what is shown what has been show so far. I would say Caerula is stronger in striking than your team, & faster in reflexes. Zazie should be even in reflexes & durability being higher.

I disagree with what you shown. The best feat so far is the sword one, and that is not so much a strength feat as a sword wiping around with some kind of slicing wave to me.

My team has the advantage of weapons & with that range.

Well you have that there.

Zazie

Since they start 100 feet Zazie will start off with her best. First shooting grenades steering your team while her other set of hands throw down mono-molecular wire nets to trip up your team & block off paths to mine. They are remote detonated and springs fast enough to trap characters in your teams combat speed range.

Plus your team has no idea what mono-molecular wire is so a blitz hitting it will crate meat bits.

Disagree. Time to introduce you to a awesome power. Muscle Power!

See Luther with total control of his body has the unique ability to increase the durability of his tissue and use his muscles to catch or hold weapons.

Muscle Control

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1) Pushes out razor bladed Shurikens.

2) Catches bullets, and pushes them out.

3) Increases the Durability of his easily to tear intestines to hold together with his multi ton strength to choke Librarian!

4) Actually catches and holds 2 razor bladed steak knives, even Jack with his tonage strength could not move them!

5) Luther catches Jacks hands, traping them inside his muscle!

Thats not even totally getting into the durability feats i posted above, they simply can harden there bodies to withstand Bullets, Knives, Explosions, and more. Luther takes this a step further, and uses his muscles as a weapon.

Your mono wire took effort to cut Zazie, I see no reason why it will at all slice up Luther as long he traps it in his muscles. Both Luther and Librarian have super healing too thanks to control over there bodies.

Healing factors

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1) Luther easily heals his Bullet wounds.

2-3) Luther tanks massive gun fire from cops so they think he was dead.

4) Heal the knife stabs from Shurikens.

5) Heals his crush skull and arm ripped from the sockets no problem.

6) Heals his Intestines being used as a Yo Yo.

7) Jack Breaks and fractures Luther's arm in two places badly, luther has it healed in the next panel.

Librarian also has great Healing.

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1) Here Librarian has his necked snapped, he snaps it back in place.

2) Librarian get his Throat stabbed with a steak knife, means nothing to him.

Zazie's osmium rounds break through depleted uranium. Being slow bullets bullets this is where her expert marksman shine. Doing this as hiding rounds in the shadow of other rounds & catching Rakan's super sonic a$$ point blank after he has thrust his hips.

When Zazie is incapable of tagging her opponent at close range she will tank her own grenades. I've shown Zazie tanking a grenade.

But this isn't a problem seeing as Caerula is watching Zazie's back & your team isn't above Zazie's reflexes.

MUHAHAHAHA, I was ready for this moment. let me introduce another power! Precognition!

Precog

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1) First use of it to catch the dish that was going to fall.

2) Uses the Precog to catch the dodge ball, and then easily plant it in the Bully's face.

3) Uses it with his back turn, knowing his friend was going to throw the book already.

4) Librarian is viewed in the Precog which allowed Luther to beat him.

The Librarian explains with this ability, you can see a 1000 moves ahead!

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As seen. Of course Luther does not master this until the final fight.

Both of these characters have Insane precog and can counter almost any move your team makes. Add this to there easily Super sonic speed, and well, you have character who very well out perform yours.

Caerula Sanguis

Caerula won't be standing still. She will attack while covering Zazie's back not everything will go off without a hitch.

Your thinking what does she have up her sleeves?

Just a hundred+ knives. The knives weren't for show they set up Alita's death (note scan set below)

Once your team is in striking distance she will go to work with her twin blades.

Your team may be fast but not fast enough. Alita specifically states Caerula's striking speed isn't even one third of Alita's top speed. But Alita has all the cuts not only that Caerula wasn't even touched.

By Alita stating she is faster than Caerula would put Alita above your team but she has feats to back this up.

Even further down the line of the fight Alita loses, only due to plot does she survive & I'll even fill you in on that (Note knives carved out the symbol for death)

This is the plot listen up. Alita had a traumatic memory of being sliced up by Caerula before and with that froze. The kicker is both saw a premonition of Altia's death.

Considering Caerula sliced up Alita, means your team with steel like features, can't make contact with these blades without being meat bits.

This made me laugh. Let me show you Luther Strode again please.

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Yeah, both characters have the Muscle Control to catch these weapons as I showed above, and are now armed with long range projectiles themselves!

Now take into account the strength, speed, and precog of these two. Lets see what they can do with it.

Accuracy

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1) Luther actually jams two guns with Slim Jims! At the same time!

2) Luther wrecks the side of this Van while decapitating a man.

3) Uses his tooth as a projectile to break a syringe!

4) Throws a grown man hundreds of feet, with such force that they went through a brick wall!

5) Librarian casually tosses a knife that sinks heavy through the wooden door, and with presicion to only graze Pete's hand, cutting off only his fingers to deliver a message.

Now my team has projectiles to throw at massive mach speeds around, and with insane accuracy/precog makes it near impossible for your team to dodge I should say.

(~ locomojis.com/whacky/3 ~)

LOL this still is ramble words on my screen ;)

Strategy

everything I countered above is part of the strategy. My team will rush foward at Super Sonic Speeds, closing the distance in no time, and easily foreseeing what your team will possibly do ahead of time. They can brute past any range attack you throw thanks to their durability, muscle control, and healing.

Once in close combat, my team dominates.

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#14 Posted by those_eyes (17291 posts) - - Show Bio
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YEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!

I cant believe how epic this CAV is. Tag me for vote please.

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#15 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14555 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Rebuttal

I disagree with what you shown. The best feat so far is the sword one, and that is not so much a strength feat as a sword wiping around with some kind of slicing wave to me.

I only showed striking power/strength feats because showing how much Caerula can lift doesn't factor into combat. But if you wan't context behind those feats than I will oblige .

Starting with this feats I presented in my intro.

Her strength is enough shake Alita's core/spine in her Imaginos body which is far superior to steel but it doesn't do any lasting damage. Although it jogs a memory.

Early in the series Alita is sent flying or cratered into things without any harm done to her core/spine.

Gets cratered into a steel wall completely fine.

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Then sent through it no sign of damage.

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I don't need to show all Alita's durability feats. I just need to prove Caerula getting a reaction out of Alita definitely shows striking power above your team.

Also clash with Victor while deviating the surroundings.

This feat is self explanatory as Victor has no feats to suggest he can level multi-storey buildings on his own even in full battle mode. So it's their combined strike that did it.

Disagree. Time to introduce you to a awesome power. Muscle Power!

See Luther with total control of his body has the unique ability to increase the durability of his tissue and use his muscles to catch or hold weapons.

Your mono wire took effort to cut Zazie, I see no reason why it will at all slice up Luther as long he traps it in his muscles. Both Luther and Librarian have super healing too thanks to control over there bodies.

Healing factors

Mono-molecular wire is very consistent on how it cuts things. Stronger materials need strength applied & weaker materials cuts on contact.

Cuts a wall and the armored guys behind it just by running past

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Expiation of mono-molecular. Mono-molecular cuts Alita's arm after one of the twins pulls the wire taut.

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But it doesn't cut up this giant made up of the same imaginos marital when the giant is suspended in it.

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I doubt your team will catch the wire in between every muscle on their body while blitzing & heal completely amputated limbs. Plus the fact that steel is a non factor when it comes to mono-molecular cutting power.

Precog

The Librarian explains with this ability, you can see a 1000 moves ahead!

As seen. Of course Luther does not master this until the final fight.

Both of these characters have Insane precog and can counter almost any move your team makes. Add this to there easily Super sonic speed, and well, you have character who very well out perform yours.

There are things your team can't counter even after they are seen.

Such as Zazie pulling the pin on a grenade then shooting it. Or Zazie force fully shoving a thermite grenade into your team's chest. This can be said for all of Zazie's close range weapons.

Then we have Caerula who dodged Alita's super sonic punch. Only being hit by the backlash once clear of the punch. Which has to be high supersonic (mach 2-4 range).

Turns a cyborg's body into tiny missiles destroying an aircraft as a side effect.

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Your characters out preform mine how?

This made me laugh. Let me show you Luther Strode again please.

Yeah, both characters have the Muscle Control to catch these weapons as I showed above, and are now armed with long range projectiles themselves!

Now take into account the strength, speed, and precog of these two. Lets see what they can do with it.

Accuracy

Now my team has projectiles to throw at massive mach speeds around, and with insane accuracy/precog makes it near impossible for your team to dodge I should say.

Where are they getting these weapons you haven't shown any gear for them? Also I've shown Caerula has superior striking feats to your team so trying to catch her blade in between their muscles is suicidal. Now you may go back on this using precog as a crutch. But Caerula has cut up Alita who's faster and more durable than your team so same results.

Also my team dodging isn't needed. So you shouldn't say.

My team is durable to take any projectiles your team throws.

Zazie has two forms of shotguns & accuracy to shoot a redirected bullet out of the air(with her back turned).

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Caerula has her own form of precog & has sliced up Alita.

Precog allows her to sense the flow of air molecules.

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Even if your team gets close there isn't anything on there resume my team can't counter. Caerula is stronger than your team and just as fast with a superior precog by feats.

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#16 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity:

I only showed striking power/strength feats because showing how much Caerula can lift doesn't factor into combat. But if you wan't context behind those feats than I will oblige .

Starting with this feats I presented in my intro.

Early in the series Alita is sent flying or cratered into things without any harm done to her core/spine.

Gets cratered into a steel wall completely fine.

Then sent through it no sign of damage.

I don't need to show all Alita's durability feats. I just need to prove Caerula getting a reaction out of Alita definitely shows striking power above your team.

Well it put things in perspective, however Jack who is weaker than Strode manage to crater 20+ feet of Concrete with a small slam attack, which Luther ignored. Add in the fact he can heal a broken spine in seconds, I see no reason why your team is still stronger, or easily by passing my teams durability in hand to Hand.

This feat is self explanatory as Victor has no feats to suggest he can level multi-storey buildings on his own even in full battle mode. So it's their combined strike that did it.

So it was a combine feat much like Luther and Librarain causing a ware house to fall from their blows in seconds.

Mono-molecular wire is very consistent on how it cuts things. Stronger materials need strength applied & weaker materials cuts on contact.

Cuts a wall and the armored guys behind it just by running past

Expiation of mono-molecular. Mono-molecular cuts Alita's arm after one of the twins pulls the wire taut.

But it doesn't cut up this giant made up of the same imaginos marital when the giant is suspended in it.

I doubt your team will catch the wire in between every muscle on their body while blitzing & heal completely amputated limbs. Plus the fact that steel is a non factor when it comes to mono-molecular cutting power.

Fair point, they cannot counter the wire, thanks to the set up however, 5 things pop into my mind.

1) The Wire seems most destcrutive when taunt.

2) The Wire was held by the twins, but did not slice their fingers off?

3) If the wire is loose, why cannot Luther throw a car or barrier to cause the loose wire to be tangled with said object?

4) How can the wire get up before Luther and Librarian Mach+ up to you from a 100 yards?

5) Why cannot they counter with precog ahead of time?

There are things your team can't counter even after they are seen.

Such as Zazie pulling the pin on a grenade then shooting it. Or Zazie force fully shoving a thermite grenade into your team's chest. This can be said for all of Zazie's close range weapons.

Then we have Caerula who dodged Alita's super sonic punch (only being hit by the backlash once clear of the punch. Which has to be high supersonic (mach 2-4 range).

Turns a cyborg's body into tiny missiles destroying an aircraft as a side effect.

Your characters out preform mine how?

So your argument to the awesome precog is what now? My characters are super sonic in Mach 2+, your is roughly the same, and mine has the benefit of a 1000 moves ahead of time which they are capable of processing the whole fight.

My team is simply faster in reaction times. Where you team has a edge in weapons, mine does in Precog and Healing.

Where are they getting these weapons you haven't shown any gear for them? Also I've shown Caerula has superior striking feats to your team so trying to catch her blade in between their muscles is suicidal. Now you may go back on this using precog as a crutch. But Caerula has cut up Alita who's faster and more durable than your team so same results.

There getting the weapons you claimed you are throwing at me. As soon they hit Strode or Librarian they become their weapons now.

Also no, you showed one striking feat that looked like a charged up attack. Most of the Vampires attacks are inferior to Luthers attacks with his strength and speed.

Striking Ability

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1) Luther's speed and strength allows him to dismember humans with things like flashy limbs as if they were swords!

2) Luther sees in a precog with a school Bully what would happen if he gave in the murder. He cuts the Bullies head off with his hand like a Samurai.

3) Disintegrates a humans head through a door.

4) Surgically rips out a heart.

5) Uses his hands to cut a steel chain!

You have no solid proof your team is faster with feats like this, and that precog allows Luther to see quite far ahead some events play out. It allows him to see 1000 moves ahead currently.

Your team is highly outclass in Close Combat due to Precog, my teams natural speed, damaging attacks, and the Seeing the Flesh power, which I will reveal in the bottom.

Also my team dodging isn't needed. So you shouldn't say.

My team is durable to take any projectiles your team throws.

Zazie has two forms of shotguns & accuracy to shoot a redirected bullet out of the air(with her back turned).

Caerula has her own form of precog & has sliced up Alita.

Precog allows her to sense the flow of air molecules.

Even if your team gets close there isn't anything on there resume my team can't counter. Caerula is stronger than your team and just as fast with a superior precog by feats.

There is nothing Precognition of Air molecule Sensing, its a sense ability like Daredevils Radar that allows for better reaction time.

Luther precognition allows for your team to pull NO Surprise attacks at all. Meanwhile a chance to counter before you make your own attack. Before I close this counter I also like to state I think my team is far more skilled too.

Your going to argue it I suppose, but Librarian is a master fighter and knows the insane skill of pressure points.

Pressure Points

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1) Disables Luther's muscles in a fight.

2) KOes Luther's mom with a forehead tap.

3) Wakes up Luther's knocked out father with a neck tap.

Librarian been using skill to hunt down people like Luther, and teach them to use their powers in fights. Luther so skilled, he beat librarian, Binder, and Jack who all have way more experience and knowledge than Luther.

Examples of Luther skill facing the Librarian are as such.

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Here the Librarian with his skill and knowledge easy defeats Strode.

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Here Luther gets schooled again by Librarian, he was scholled the whole team till Luther learned to use his Precog, and then it was a fair match.

Luther has spent 5 years after this fight honing his abilities, and proven his Skill further against guys like Binder. A guy with the same powers of Strode as well, but Binder specializes in capturing people with the Herculese method power set, and he failed with prep against Luther.

This is a major Skill set in play as Luther and Librarian also have the ability to see flesh. Another by product of the Hercules Method.

Seeing the Flesh

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1) Sees the Librarian is no normal human in their first encounter.

2) Sees the School kids as flesh.

3) Able to see into his friend Peter's body who had every bone broken by the Librarian. Another skill showing for Librarian.

4) Watches his own guts heal.

The Librarian comment all people with the Hercules Method sees the flesh. This is a helpful ability to determine weak spots and see what damage they are causing in a fight as well. So not only do my guys seem more skilled, but they have the stats, and special abilities to dominate.

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#17 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14555 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Closing Argument

Well it put things in perspective, however Jack who is weaker than Strode manage to crater 20+ feet of Concrete with a small slam attack, which Luther ignored. Add in the fact he can heal a broken spine in seconds, I see no reason why your team is still stronger, or easily by passing my teams durability in hand to Hand.

Glad I could help. We must agree to disagree on strength.

Zazie can by pass durability. But I have been avoiding hand to hand feats. Just because my team has superior weaponry & by all means will use it.

Zazie has only fought characters that are more skilled than her in hand to hand so her using hand to hand to win a fight is limited.

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But to let you know she isn't useless in that option. She still knows a technique that would liquefy your teams insides anywhere she strikes due to her cyborg body.

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Chest strike or head strike will be an instant kill.

Caerula can detect & defeat invisible opponents in armor.

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And shown to be more skilled than Alita.

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Knowing everything about Panzer Kunst, Alita's martial arts. Making Alita specifically demand a sword battle. Which Alita loses.

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You need more?

A simple palm strike rag dolls a man.

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And she is definitely not above pulling out your teams heart.

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So it was a combine feat much like Luther and Librarain causing a ware house to fall from their blows in seconds.

It seems we agree on the context but not on the degree of the feats. I find Caerula combined feat superior.

It seems you missed some places on putting statements in quotes. No big deal tho.

Fair point, they cannot counter the wire, thanks to the set up however, 5 things pop into my mind.

1) The Wire seems most destcrutive when taunt.

2) The Wire was held by the twins, but did not slice their fingers off?

3) If the wire is loose, why cannot Luther throw a car or barrier to cause the loose wire to be tangled with said object?

4) How can the wire get up before Luther and Librarian Mach+ up to you from a 100 yards?

5) Why cannot they counter with precog ahead of time?

Yes they are.

The twins have a tuned body basically they unwind it form their hands.

Possible if she doesn't set it up to form a net which would defeat the purpose. Your team using items to get through would stop their blitz giving Zazie time for a grenade throw then shooting it.

It trap fast a opponent comparable to your team. And form the scans previously shown the spring time doesn't seem slow.

The why question isn't why they cannot counter ahead? Never said they couldn't. It is what would they do to counter ahead? While grenade launcher & knife throws are tracking their movements.

So your argument to the awesome precog is what now? My characters are super sonic in Mach 2+, your is roughly the same, and mine has the benefit of a 1000 moves ahead of time which they are capable of processing the whole fight.

My team is simply faster in reaction times. Where you team has a edge in weapons, mine does in Precog and Healing.

Weaponry, strength, durability etc.

Mach 2 plus or mach 2? There is a difference.

My previous statement "Now you may go back on this using precog as a crutch. But Caerula has cut up Alita who's faster and more durable than your team so same results."☜(゚ヮ゚☜)

Basically what I'm trying to convey is show me there precog out preforming someone who is vastly faster than them. Caerula isn't one third of Alita's top speed and you have seen most of Caerula speed feats. ◔_◔

There getting the weapons you claimed you are throwing at me. As soon they hit Strode or Librarian they become their weapons now.

Also no, you showed one striking feat that looked like a charged up attack. Most of the Vampires attacks are inferior to Luthers attacks with his strength and speed.

Caerula is the only one throwing weapons hundreds in seconds. So I don't see your team catching many if any. But if your team wants to shave more time off there blitz (which you adamantly argue) then by all means do so. Plus I doubt they will do any damage at all if they could land.

The only striking feats I've shown for vampires' are Victor & Caerula so i don't see how they are inferior. Also Alita can do hundreds of punches a second. What Alita did was focus all her speed and strength into one punch which your team doesn't have the feats to dodge.

Striking Ability

You have no solid proof your team is faster with feats like this, and that precog allows Luther to see quite far ahead some events play out. It allows him to see 1000 moves ahead currently.

Your team is highly outclass in Close Combat due to Precog, my teams natural speed, damaging attacks, and the Seeing the Flesh power, which I will reveal in the bottom.

Zazie has super sonic combat speed. Caerula has supersonic combat speed with high supersonic reflexes. Alita has combat speed faster than mach 2 not even Alita's top speed. Now refer back to my previous scans of Alita & Caerula fight.

Damaging attacks?

Zazie is tanking grenades, had tens of thousands vibrations in her skull for a month (equal to small caliber hand gun) & suspended in mono-molecular wire.

Caerula has been impelled by Victor in full battle mode and wasn't KOed. While Victor is swinging Caerulas body he gets detracted & she goes in for the kill.

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Here is what Victor does to normal human & the Gateway Arch

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He had already cut into the Gateway Arch with casual sword swings then Caerula dislodges it.

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There is nothing Precognition of Air molecule Sensing, its a sense ability like Daredevils Radar that allows for better reaction time.

Luther precognition allows for your team to pull NO Surprise attacks at all. Meanwhile a chance to counter before you make your own attack. Before i close this I also like to state i think my team is far more skilled too.

Your going to argue it I suppose, but Librarian is a master fighter and knows the insane skill of pressure points.

Fair enough you can liken it to that. But Caerula did throw knives at the beginning of her match forming the exact spot Alita would be for the final blow. Caerula is working 100 moves ahead of Alita, which was stated by a guy with two supercomputers in his head.

Cover skilled should have done it sooner my apologies.

Pressure Points

Librarian been using skill to hunt down people like Luther, and teach them to use their powers in fights. Luther so skilled, he beat librarian, Binder, and Jack who all have way more experience and knowledge than Luther.

This is major Skill set in play as Luther and Librarian also have the ability to see flesh. Another by product of the Hercules Method.

Seeing the Flesh

The Librarian comment all people with the Hercules Method sees the flesh. This is a helpful ability to determine weak spots and see what damage they are causing in a fight as well.

Zazie is a a cyborg the only thing confirmed to be human about her is the brain.

Caerula is more durable than you give her credit for and she already knows pressure points. Your team can go for it but they will lose the offending hand.

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#18 Posted by HyperViper97 (1351 posts) - - Show Bio

Meanwhile on the Luther strode respect thread...

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#19 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14555 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: You may have the last post or start voting.

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#20 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity:

Closing Argument

Zazie can by pass durability. But I have been avoiding hand to hand feats. Just because my team has superior weaponry & by all means will use it.

Zazie has only fought characters that are more skilled than her in hand to hand so her using hand to hand to win a fight is limited.

But to let you know she isn't useless in that option. She still knows a technique that would liquefy your teams insides anywhere she strikes due to her cyborg body.

Chest strike or head strike will be an instant kill.

Caerula can detect & defeat invisible opponents in armor.

And shown to be more skilled than Alita.

Knowing everything about Panzer Kunst, Alita's martial arts. Making Alita specifically demand a sword battle. Which Alita loses.

I guess we will agree to disagree on strength. most of your strength showings can be accomplish by Ultimate Captain America who is only a 5 toner. None of those attack will work the way you might think they do on the super durable strode and Librarian who can turn there softest intestines into steel hard rope.

Also Healing will instantly heal any damage they receive anyway.

The why question isn't why they cannot counter ahead? Never said they couldn't. It is what would they do to counter ahead? While grenade launcher & knife throws are tracking their movements.

They can trow any object around at Super sonic speeds to counter while tanking Grenades or Knives with no problem. One good throw of a barrier will instantly ruin any attempt to throw up a net.

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Just like Luther here throwing a whole Soda Machine at super speeds in a blink of eye. There goes your net trap already thanks to Precog, and my teams ability to soak more damage your range attacks can put out.

Plenty of Debris around here too.

Weaponry, strength, durability etc.

Mach 2 plus or mach 2? There is a difference.

My previous statement "Now you may go back on this using precog as a crutch. But Caerula has cut up Alita who's faster and more durable than your team so same results."☜(゚ヮ゚☜)

Basically what I'm trying to convey is show me there precog out preforming someone who is vastly faster than them. Caerula isn't one third of Alita's top speed and you have seen most of Caerula speed feats. ◔_◔

It out preform Jack. Jack is for all intents and purpose is faster the Strode.

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1) Jack dodges every bullet and casually with a knife deflects two bullets from a few feet away.

2) Jack is a streak that cuts Binder to pieces.

3-4) Jack in less than a hour surgically disables 100s of people in a mall, and then spreads there bodies to his content. non of these people were dead either. Just mutilated by Jack the Rippers skill with a blade and speed.

This is Binder, another guy like Librarian, only he been around centuries catching people like Jack and others with Luther Strodes abilities.

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He is very skilled, only slightly under luther over all, and experienced.

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This is important battle. First two scans show how fast Jack is. Jack has blitzed Luther with streaks of after images. Luther adjusts easy with his Precognition and skill combo. Then the rest of the fight has Luther putting Jack on the defensive. Binder then joins the fray, and Luther ends up effectively countering both of these foes. One slightly faster than Strode, and the other just as fast at the same time.

Why should I believe your two characters who by feats I looked at are not faster at all than Luther himself be a problem for Luther, or Librarian's precog?

Caerula is the only one throwing weapons hundreds in seconds. So I don't see your team catching many if any. But if your team wants to shave more time off there blitz (which you adamantly argue) then by all means do so. Plus I doubt they will do any damage at all if they could land.

You missed the point of my scans. I will post them again.

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With Muscle control, they will let the weapon stick in their bodies to be used later. Strode does this alot BTW.

The only striking feats I've shown for vampires' are Victor & Caerula so i don't see how they are inferior. Also Alita can do hundreds of punches a second. What Alita did was focus all her speed and strength into one punch which your team doesn't have the feats to dodge.

So what if she can punch a hundred times a second, Luther and Librarian also fight on a level to counter all those if they need to, or decapitate with a hand shop.

Zazie has super sonic combat speed. Caerula has supersonic combat speed with high supersonic reflexes. Alita has combat speed faster than mach 2 not even Alita's top speed. Now refer back to my previous scans of Alita & Caerula fight.

Damaging attacks?

Zazie is tanking grenades, had hundreds of thousands vibrations in her skull for a month (equal to small caliber hand gun) & suspended in mono-molecular wire.

The Wire cuts through Zazie, not much of a feat.

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It clearly cut through. Luther and Librairian are pumped full of swords from your Vampire chick to use, and their own bare hands can cut through steel. Why should Zanzie be immune? The other two feats are not that impressive either when dealing with 10+ ton foes. A Humvee can tank a grenade, not tanking a 10 ton ramming Vehicle.

Caerula has been impelled by Victor in full battle mode and wasn't KOed. While Victor is swinging Caerulas body he gets detracted & she goes in for the kill.

Here is what Victor does to normal human & the Gateway Arch

He had already cut into the Gateway Arch with casual sword swings then Caerula dislodges it.

Neat, still shows how easy she will lose her head or be dismembered by the Strode team.

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Fair enough you can liken it to that. But Caerula did throw knives at the beginning of her match forming the exact spot Alita would be for the final blow. Caerula is working 100 moves ahead of Alita, which was stated by a guy with two supercomputers in his head.

Supercomputers seem like a good idea to throw around, but lets face it. Terminator is aSuper computer robot, and cannot hit Sarah Conner worth crap with a weapon :/ I have a smart phone that keeps getting voice commands wrong for music. Supercomputers are faulty at best. Proven faulty in your own scenario.

The only people who can beat Strode, Binder, Jack, and Librarian were people with the same abilities. Strode could not land a hit on Librarian no matter his stats until his precog matches Librarians.

Its proven infallible thus far. Your character may be tactful, but every move can be foreseen and countered. Even Binder who has the same powers needed prep to get Luther, and he still failed :/

Zazie is a a cyborg the only thing confirmed to be human about her is the brain.

Thats fine, it will be the weak spot given Luther and Librarian's powers, that is what they will aim for or Dismember her.

Caerula is more durable than you give her credit for and she already knows pressure points. Your team can go for it but they will lose the offending hand.

Again I doubt it, they know every move she will make before she does it. I also think they are faster too.

In the end my team can always have a way to counter whatever your team throws, last longer due to their talents, and dismember your team in a close combat match which this match will be.

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They can easily counter your team at range.

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Then they rush up and rip your team apart.

End of the match and in only the space of a few heart beats.

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#21 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: That was a good match. Giving shout outs, and hope at the least you have a idea of Luther now when ever you want to debate for or against. The Graphic novels are really really good. And cheap.

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#22 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14555 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: You have to start with Strange Talent of Luther Strode, and then Legend of Luther Strode.

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#24 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14555 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14555 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Yep. Plus you never followed me, I'm little disappointed. ಥ_ಥ

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#27 Edited by cdiddyman911 (5525 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2@mr_ingenuit Like usual both of you did a great job. It was a excellent debate and a lot of fun to read! However I do see a clear cut winner and IMO it's Cadence! He was able to counter everything Mr_Ingunuity threw at him(literally) and seemed to physically outmatch Mr's team in almost every aspect. So my vote goes to @cadencev2

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#28 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Yep. Plus you never flowed me, I'm little disappointed. ಥ_ಥ

I thought you already followed me :P

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#29 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: give me a day to read through all that before voting ok?

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#30 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

That was nice. I'm kind of biased (Having read Last Order) but Mr. I's team was waaaay too powerful for Cadence's. Zazie would be a decent matchup for them, but Caerula is so far above Zazie it's not even funny. She hits harder (or atleast more effectively) than giant robots that dwarf 100 ton strength, ignoring the fact that she made a mockery of someone who's a casually supersonic fighter. I guess my vote goes to Mr_Ingenuity in that sense, but it was hardly a fair fight from the outset.

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#31 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: yeah bud, i need to read this through a few times as I am not too familiar with these characters.

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#32 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

That was nice. I'm kind of biased (Having read Last Order) but Mr. I's team was waaaay too powerful for Cadence's. Zazie would be a decent matchup for them, but Caerula is so far above Zazie it's not even funny. She hits harder (or atleast more effectively) than giant robots that dwarf 100 ton strength, ignoring the fact that she made a mockery of someone who's a casually supersonic fighter. I guess my vote goes to Mr_Ingenuity in that sense, but it was hardly a fair fight from the outset.

So your vote is base on personnel knowledge then and not argument ;)

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#33 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

That was nice. I'm kind of biased (Having read Last Order) but Mr. I's team was waaaay too powerful for Cadence's. Zazie would be a decent matchup for them, but Caerula is so far above Zazie it's not even funny. She hits harder (or atleast more effectively) than giant robots that dwarf 100 ton strength, ignoring the fact that she made a mockery of someone who's a casually supersonic fighter. I guess my vote goes to Mr_Ingenuity in that sense, but it was hardly a fair fight from the outset.

So your vote is base on personnel knowledge then and not argument ;)

He used the same arguments that I'm aware of. I mean if you want me to pick out problems, you shooing off her feats as things that could be done by ultimate Cap were downright silly, but there wasn't much you could do about it when faced with her. Mr_I pretty plainly pointed out that Caerula was more than a match for Alita and, well, he's shown what Alita can do (Even if only a little).

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#34 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@dredeuced said:

That was nice. I'm kind of biased (Having read Last Order) but Mr. I's team was waaaay too powerful for Cadence's. Zazie would be a decent matchup for them, but Caerula is so far above Zazie it's not even funny. She hits harder (or atleast more effectively) than giant robots that dwarf 100 ton strength, ignoring the fact that she made a mockery of someone who's a casually supersonic fighter. I guess my vote goes to Mr_Ingenuity in that sense, but it was hardly a fair fight from the outset.

So your vote is base on personnel knowledge then and not argument ;)

He used the same arguments that I'm aware of. I mean if you want me to pick out problems, you shooing off her feats as things that could be done by ultimate Cap were downright silly, but there wasn't much you could do about it when faced with her. Mr_I pretty plainly pointed out that Caerula was more than a match for Alita and, well, he's shown what Alita can do (Even if only a little).

Thats fine, the way you said it sounded like straight basing off your own knowledge rather than what Mr. i said. See how all that could have been avoided with a little explanation on the arguments at hand? ;)

Also on a side note, I still seen nothing from Last stand that is higher than what Spidey has done in some showings.

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#35 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Alita matches, or comes close to, spiderman in about everything once she gets her tuned body. Strength, speed, reaction time etc. I debated using her before against you and you even called into question if she was within Spiderman's limits.

Her Imaginos body is quite a few leagues ahead of the Tuned body. Heck, she beats three copies at the same time after waking up in her Imaginos body despite barely being able to control it. Later she becomes massively supersonic (probably hypersonic, I'd have to calc how fast she'd have to go to do some of the sonic boom stuff she does) in combat speed, and that's when she fights Caerula. Just the speed of her punch causes massive destruction akin to hundred tonner thunderclaps.

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#36 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14555 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Alita matches, or comes close to, spiderman in about everything once she gets her tuned body. Strength, speed, reaction time etc. I debated using her before against you and you even called into question if she was within Spiderman's limits.

Her Imaginos body is quite a few leagues ahead of the Tuned body. Heck, she beats three copies at the same time after waking up in her Imaginos body despite barely being able to control it. Later she becomes massively supersonic (probably hypersonic, I'd have to calc how fast she'd have to go to do some of the sonic boom stuff she does) in combat speed, and that's when she fights Caerula. Just the speed of her punch causes massive destruction akin to hundred tonner thunderclaps.

So she has a better upgrade than her Tune Body? I did not know this.

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#38 Edited by Baltoro (1822 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

@cadencev2: Alita matches, or comes close to, spiderman in about everything once she gets her tuned body. Strength, speed, reaction time etc. I debated using her before against you and you even called into question if she was within Spiderman's limits.

Her Imaginos body is quite a few leagues ahead of the Tuned body. Heck, she beats three copies at the same time after waking up in her Imaginos body despite barely being able to control it. Later she becomes massively supersonic (probably hypersonic, I'd have to calc how fast she'd have to go to do some of the sonic boom stuff she does) in combat speed, and that's when she fights Caerula. Just the speed of her punch causes massive destruction akin to hundred tonner thunderclaps.

This sure was an interesting battle. Alita's punch looked very powerful and fast, but didn't Caerula dodge most of the shockwave? She appeared to be bleeding from a grazing blow. Where's the 100 tons calculation coming from? Another thing, Caerula collapsed an entire building and it looked like a massive one at that, in her fight with Victor. That feat would require a tremendous amount of striking power if we assume each party did equal work to accomplish that. I don't think I'm ready to vote, it's definitely too early, but if shockwaves from Caerula's fights are busting massive buildings then I don't see how Luthor can compete here. Are we misinterpreting things here?

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#39 Posted by IheartZombies92--defunct (2317 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Hmm, okay.

While @mr_ingenuity had a much stronger start than @cadencev2, cadencev2 was more convincing towards the end.

mr, I think your stronger side is the fact gathering and the opening, while cadence was better with putting everything together and adapting to mr's arguments.

Great debate overall, my vote goes to cadencev2, but it's very close.

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#40 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#41 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@baltoro said:

@dredeuced said:

@cadencev2: Alita matches, or comes close to, spiderman in about everything once she gets her tuned body. Strength, speed, reaction time etc. I debated using her before against you and you even called into question if she was within Spiderman's limits.

Her Imaginos body is quite a few leagues ahead of the Tuned body. Heck, she beats three copies at the same time after waking up in her Imaginos body despite barely being able to control it. Later she becomes massively supersonic (probably hypersonic, I'd have to calc how fast she'd have to go to do some of the sonic boom stuff she does) in combat speed, and that's when she fights Caerula. Just the speed of her punch causes massive destruction akin to hundred tonner thunderclaps.

This sure was an interesting battle. Alita's punch looked very powerful and fast, but didn't Caerula dodge most of the shockwave? She appeared to be bleeding from a grazing blow. Where's the 100 tons calculation coming from? Another thing, Caerula collapsed an entire building and it looked like a massive one at that, in her fight with Victor. That feat would require a tremendous amount of striking power if we assume each party did equal work to accomplish that. I don't think I'm ready to vote, it's definitely too early, but if shockwaves from Caerula's fights are busting massive buildings then I don't see how Luthor can compete here. Are we misinterpreting things here?

I dunno, the shockwave from her punch does stuff like destroy buildings and causes things to explode in the distance. As I said, it is akin to 100 tonner stuff. She has well over 100 ton feats later in the series, but those are technically after ill defined upgrades so I'm unsure if they really count for her. But yea, Caerula can swing her sword and destroy a sky scraper pretty casually, as well as being fast enough to dance around presumably hypersonic opponents.

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#42 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14555 posts) - - Show Bio

...

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#43 Posted by Baltoro (1822 posts) - - Show Bio

@baltoro said:

@dredeuced said:

@cadencev2: Alita matches, or comes close to, spiderman in about everything once she gets her tuned body. Strength, speed, reaction time etc. I debated using her before against you and you even called into question if she was within Spiderman's limits.

Her Imaginos body is quite a few leagues ahead of the Tuned body. Heck, she beats three copies at the same time after waking up in her Imaginos body despite barely being able to control it. Later she becomes massively supersonic (probably hypersonic, I'd have to calc how fast she'd have to go to do some of the sonic boom stuff she does) in combat speed, and that's when she fights Caerula. Just the speed of her punch causes massive destruction akin to hundred tonner thunderclaps.

This sure was an interesting battle. Alita's punch looked very powerful and fast, but didn't Caerula dodge most of the shockwave? She appeared to be bleeding from a grazing blow. Where's the 100 tons calculation coming from? Another thing, Caerula collapsed an entire building and it looked like a massive one at that, in her fight with Victor. That feat would require a tremendous amount of striking power if we assume each party did equal work to accomplish that. I don't think I'm ready to vote, it's definitely too early, but if shockwaves from Caerula's fights are busting massive buildings then I don't see how Luthor can compete here. Are we misinterpreting things here?

I dunno, the shockwave from her punch does stuff like destroy buildings and causes things to explode in the distance. As I said, it is akin to 100 tonner stuff. She has well over 100 ton feats later in the series, but those are technically after ill defined upgrades so I'm unsure if they really count for her. But yea, Caerula can swing her sword and destroy a sky scraper pretty casually, as well as being fast enough to dance around presumably hypersonic opponents.

Thanks. I've read over this thread again. I think they both did a good job but no one really wowed me in this debate with their arguments. True, Cadence did lowball Mr_Ingenuity's team comparing them to Ultimate Captain America but I felt Mr_I should have expanded more on how powerful Caerula really is. If she's taking down skyscrapers with her sword (the claim) then Cadence's team gets stomped by Caerula alone. Example of the arguments:

Also clash with Victor while deviating the surroundings.

That's how Mr_Ingenuity described a skyscraper getting toppled by sword swings...I mean, a little more detail wouldn't hurt? Maybe the guy is just modest and was going easy on Cadence's team. I could have voted for Mr_I's team but it's kind of unfair how Cadence's guy tosses soda machines around and is supposed to beat a super speed vampire that can destroy skyscrapers? Correct me if I'm misinterpreting the arguments here...

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#46 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14555 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

More votes before closing.

@cosmicallyaware1: @higorm:

sorry took so long man, very busy lately. In all honesty I'm having a very difficult time deciding on whom to vote for. Due to my lack of knowledge of characters involved. As far as the presentation of information you both did an excellent job as always and debated phenominally. Considering that I vote draw.....

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#48 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, this is one of those battles with unusual characters, specially talking about the anime/manga character, since Luther has been much more debated lately. Initially I didn't saw much arguments being made, but just both competitors trying to prove their characters capabilities, showing lots of scans, and then the real debate started. In the end I believe @cadencev2 proved in a more convincing way that his champion would be the last one standing, those feats of healing factor and pain resistance are just insane.