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#1 Edited by HeirToTheKingdom (9201 posts) - - Show Bio

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Represented by: HeirToTheKingdom

VS

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Represented by: TheDailyBagel

Rules For Us

  • In-character
  • Fight to KO or if it comes to it death
  • No BFR

Rules For Audience

  • This is a debate between the two of us, don't interfere in that.
  • Don't say who you think wins until the debate is completely over.
  • Keep your negative comments to yourself or at-least bring them forth when the debate is over.
  • Asked to be tagged and you'll be reserved for voting at the end.
  • Do not flood the thread
  • Enjoy!

Location

  • Fight takes place in New York City.
  • Spider-Man will be observing the battle. Yes, Peter Parker himself.
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Tags

  • GhostRavage
  • Lvenger

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#2 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9201 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag.

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#4 Posted by Kennethmaestro (599 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay this should be a good one

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#5 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by HeirToTheKingdom (9201 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by Lvenger (36335 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be good, tag for votes.

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#8 Edited by HeirToTheKingdom (9201 posts) - - Show Bio

Opening post for Luchino Nefaria AKA Count Nefaria

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The Ionic Vampire!

Origin:

Count Nefaria was a normal human until he was subjected to a process developed and perfected by one ofBaron Heinrich Zemo's top scientists Dr. Kenneth Sturdy who after he and his assistants had analyzed the cellular and genetic structure of the three super villains of the of the group called the Lethal Legion. Dr. Sturdy granted Count Nefaria the combined powers of the Living Laser (energy projection), Power Man(superhuman strength, superhuman endurance and superhuman durability), and Whirlwind (superhuman speed), all amplified at over hundredfold. Because of this, When his body is fully charged with ionic energy, not only is Count Nefaria one of the most powerful beings who have ever walked the face of the Earth, but with his near limitless superhuman strength, Count Nefaria is also one of the physically strongest known humans in the Marvel Universe with his speed, and endurance amplified to the similar proportions.Powers and abilities:

  • Superhuman strength: Count Nefaria possesses a crazy amount of physical strength. His physical strength can be comparable to the high tier powerhouses of the Marvel Universe. He's strong enough to take on multiple Avengers at once without much trouble.
  • Superhuman durability: Count Nefaria is as durable as he is strong. He's capable of taking blows from some of the strongest Avengers like Wonder Man and Thor without much difficulty. He has even proven to be durable enough to take multiple energy blasts from the Avengers and Thunderbolts at the same time.
  • Superhuman speed: Nefaria possesses superhuman speeds which has allowed him to out-speed some of the Avengers. Due to his insane durability he usually wishes to endure hits, but when he needs to he is capable of moving at fast speeds allowing him to out-speed beings like Iron Man.
  • Super hearing: Like Superman, Nefaria has greatly enhanced hearing (not documented as great though). His hearing is far more better than that of a normal humans.
  • Flight: He is not only capable of flight, but also moving at supersonic + speeds in the air. Iron Man who is respectively fast in his own right was unable to chase after him due to the fact that he was moving too fast. Though his flight speed hasn't been stated on panel to be faster than this, he has feats that could suggest otherwise.
  • Energy projection: Nefaria is able to release blasts of ionic energy from his eyes. These blasts can have high destructive power.
  • Energy absorption: He is able to drain ionic energy from other beings who possess it. He was able to drain it from Atlas and Wonder Man quite easily, as well as anyone who he drains energy from, he's capable of manipulating or controlling their actions.
  • Constructs: Not only is he able to release blasts of ionic energy and absorb it, but he's also able to create constructs out of it too. In a way it's similar to that of a Green Lanterns.
  • Energy manipulation: Nefaria's control over his powers has grown greater throughout the years. He is now able to release his energy around or upon objects allowing him to move them around. Not only is he able to do this with objects, but he can do it to people too.

So for this post I really wanted you to just get an idea of what Nefaria brings to this battle without actually showing you any scans. I have however given you some of his feats which you will get more of when I show why I believe Nefaria can take this version of Hulk in a straight up battle. Will it be tough? Yes, but I believe he is capable of such a task.

I'll hand it over to you. @thedailybagel

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#9 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9201 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Edited by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

Intro

The Indestructible Hulk
The Indestructible Hulk

No introduction is needed for hulk in general, he's easily one of the most famous fictional characters on the planet and has been around for nearly 60 years. Indestructible hulk is essentially the most recent take on savage hulk, albeit more powerful and less intelligent. He was present throughout mark waid's run and also a vast chunk of Hickman's avengers titles. He truly lives up to his "indestructible" moniker, being perhaps hulks most durable incarnation to date, behind only Green Scar in overall damage soak. The best description of Indestructible hulk probably came from banner when describing him to maria hill during indestructible hulk #1:

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Moving on, lets get to his powerset...

Powers/Abilities

  • Superhuman Strength- Easily capable of grounding 100 tonners with ease, lifting ridiculous weight and in general just being the strongest one there is ;)
  • Superhuman Durability- Far in excess of most powerhouses, easily capable of shrugging off nukes, island busting bombs, molecular altering weapons and thor level ordinance
  • Superhuman Speed- capable of moving at hypersonic speeds and reacting to objects even faster than that, his leaps allow him to leave the atmosphere
  • Healing factor- Not showcased as much during indestructible hulk because he was rarely cut of injured, but when needed he could de-age himself in seconds and heal cuts/bruises rather quickly
  • Rage empowerment- Hulks trump card, contrary to popular belief being angry doesnt just make him stronger, it enhances all of his abilities
  • Telepathy resistance
  • Adaptation

As evidenced, he isnt just regular brick, he's built to tank attacks, doesnt have a problem with speed and has multiple trump cards that make him nigh impossible to put down, namely his healing factor and rage empowerment on top of his raw durability. For further info on his power level, here's an extract from marvel fact files #5 (released in 2014) that has the main part conveniently highlighted:

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After the explosion on sakaar that led to world war hulk, he was amped to his highest ever level and as stated outmatched the physical power of any other hero on earth. For reference writers like Hickman also agree that hulk is indeed the strongest avenger there is. So not only does this mean that Count Nefaria is fighting a versatile brick (by brick standards), but also the strongest brick there is. Moving on...

My Damage output vs Your Damage output

From what I know of nefaria, this isnt going to be a stretched out encounter involving a plethora of versatility, this is going to come down to who hits harder, and who can tank more damage, and I strongly believe that hulk has the count numbered in both areas. Fighting hulk head on is all but suicide for all but the most powerful characters, and I don't have Nefaria on that list.

For starters, Indestructible Hulk is so far above people like Iron-Man its borderline unfair. For example, In Secret Avengers #4 Hulk was sent to wipe out a literal army of sentient iron-patriots and proceeded to stomp every single one of them in a few pages...

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If I had to guess Id say there were dozens of them, yet they couldn't even slow hulk down. the key part here is that hulk tore through them like paper because they were unmanned, therefore he had no reason to hold back and this was explicitly mentioned by mariah hill when sending Bruce in. Whilst I don't believe that hulk will show the same level of ferocity against nefaria (purely because he's a living being), he isnt going to start off with love taps either, given that this particular incarnation of hulk needs people he likes to calm him down before he hurts people weaker than him, he doesnt know nor like Nefaria.

Whilst we're on the topic of Iron-Man lets refer back to A+X #7, wherein hulk quite literally smashed a hulkbuster with one hit, said hulkbuster previously stomping tony and completely no selling his forward repulsor which had all power diverted to it:

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A main part to note here is that hulk was also at the bottom of his anger levels as mentioned in the fourth scan, meaning in this fight he's going to be much stronger. In comparison Iron-Man has attempted a similar tactic on Nefaria during the counts first appearances...

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The main difference here being that Tony is using an older armour and he didn't divert all of his energy into a single blast like he did against the hulkbuster. So we have hulk one shotting an armour that no sold a similar attack that staggered count nefaria, whilst at the bottom of his anger levels no less.

Although this should suffice to prove that hulk can indeed harm the count, one more striking feat and a strength showing should suffice in sealing that notion. Take for example incredible hulk #3 where Jason aaron's hulk caused earthquakes all over the world whilst casually pounding gamma irradiated boars...

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These hits were also taking place in the earth's mantle as mentioned in the fourth scan, with said hits being described as "bombs" and generating earthquakes all over the world. In the second scan a boar is hit miles upon miles away, up from an unspecified part of the mantle to far above the surface, ultimately reaching a mountain top. For reference the mantle can be anything from just over 25 miles below the surface to 2,900 kilometres. Even assuming he was in the upper half of the mantle, he uppercutted a boar at least 26 miles upwards, most likely drastically more. The following scan also better shows the affects of his hits:

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His punches were causing volcanoes to erupt, shaking ships and were affecting geographical locations on separate sides of the planet.

Finally, in terms of raw strength take for example avengers #24, which involves hulk leaping out of earths atmosphere and pushing a ship the size of a small moon into a rogue planet nigh effortlessly, said ship even igniting because of how hard he moved it, in comparison Nefaria has never faced anyone with this level of strength aside from Thor...

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In conclusion, I do indeed believe that hulk hits significantly harder than the count and would deal much more damage as a result. His hits have caused much more collateral damage on top of harming more durable foes, and will only get harder as this fight rages on. Moving on...

My damage soak vs your damage soak

This is the area where indestructible hulk shines and just like the previous section, I firmly believe that hulk surpasses Nefaria by a significant margin. Some of his durability feats include laughing off massive blunt force impacts, to tanking molecular altering weapons, some of which will be showcased below.

In terms of blunt force durability (Nefarias main form of attack as far as im aware) look no further than Infinity #6, an issue where hulk smiled at an attack from thanos as well as a few more durability feats that ill showcase later into the debate. Anyway, scans below:

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He essentially tanks a haymaker from thanos of all people, someone i'm absolutely certain hits much harder than Count Nefaria. If for any reason someone can't see the second scan, top panel, I'll post a cropped version for ease of viewing below...

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In terms of 'explosive' durability, Indestructible hulk has no sold an island busting nuke to his face during Indestructible hulk annual #1, with shield needing to let him swim around in the aftermath in the hopes that he would calm down and be capable of extracting Banner...

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It's worth noting that Count Nefaria has never faced an attack of this scale, nor tanked one of this scale. Hulk has done both and easily at that.

Although this should be more than enough for now to prove that hulk can easily deal with what Nefaria can dish out, two more examples couldnt hurt. Take for example Indestructible hulk #2 where Bruce basically walks through tony's optic blasts with little to no effort on hulks part:

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Finally, in terms of healing, Indestructible hulk only really has one instance that occurred during indestructible hulk #13, A chronarchist with the ability to manipulate time attempted to age hulk to dust, a strategy that caused people earlier in the issue to be reduced to dust and skeletons instantly, yet hulk resisted it with some help from his armour:

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The key part to note here isn't that hulk resisted the affects, but rather how quickly he recovered from them. He went from grey haired and wrinkled back to his usual self within a single panel, which is a true testament as to how quickly his cells regenerate themselves, the same principle should apply to cuts and injuries as well.

This should be more than ample proof that hulk can rather easily deal with whatever Nefaria can bring to the party, and if needs be heal whatever damage Nefaria manages to give him. Onto speed...

My reactions vs your speed

Personally, I don't think speed will be much of a factor in this fight as Nefaria doesnt use his speed very intelligently and has hardly showcased what speed he does possess at all. Hulk should have no problem landing hits and even bull-rushing him if needs be. One example of hulks reaction time was showcased during Indestructible hulk #11. Due to time being messed with, random occurrences were happening all over the planet, with objects/people from one time period being transported to another out of thin air. Case in point, one such event was a world war two era plane moving at full speed appearing metres behind a group of soldiers, only for hulk to stop said plane showing fine reaction time whilst doing so...

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Scans are jumbled, read from right, to left and then middle

He essentially reacted with his back turned to a full speed plane appearing out of thin air, and then punched said plane before it moved a few inches. Most planes (even during the second world war) move at hundreds of metres a second at top speed, yet hulk covered 10 plus metres before that aircraft could move what seems like a few inches, showcasing both high level reaction time and running speed to boot.

In terms of raw speed, take for example Indestructible hulk #17 where hulk catches up to a jet moving easily at hypersonic speeds and piloted by beast, being seen as barely a blur in the instance let alone stealing a bomb before hank pym even knew what was going on...

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These two examples should be more than ample proof that hulk can tag, react to or even bullrush Nefaria if given the opportunity. Hulk blitzing him is also a likely scenario given that in character Nefaria prefers to tank attacks just to prove that he can, he also underestimates his opponents. A perfect example came from a scan I posted, i've cropped it and highlighted an example i was referring to:

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Tony admitted to himself that Nefaria was supposed to be a allot faster than he is, but despite the speed gap tony still closed a decent distance and smacked him the face before Nefaria could react, purely because Nefaria was too confident in his abilities and underestimated what speed Tony did have. There's no reason that hulk couldn't accomplish the same in the opening seconds of this fight given how in character it was for Indestructible hulk to bullrush enemies.

Conclusion

Overall, Hulk has better feats against superior foes in more or less all important areas of this fight. He hits much harder, can take significantly more damage, and is more than fast enough to land consistent hits on the Count, even blitzing him if it comes down to it. I'm struggling myself to find a case for Nefaria winning this particular matchup and I haven't even begun to get into some of this hulks more overpowered and impressive feats... Furthermore a trump card I've neglected to mention so far also further swings this match in hulks favour, namely the rate at which Nefaria expends energy, ultimately making him weaker over time whilst hulk gets stronger. This was explicitly stated by Goliath and Ironman during their second encounter with Nefaria:

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They originally beat him by wearing him down, causing him to use up more energy than he generated. Granted, goliath later mentions that it would take three weeks before Nefaria went down due to running out of energy, although that part isn't important here for two reasons;

  1. Nefaria would be putting farmore effort into a fight with hulk than he did against a c-list avengers/thunderbolts lineup, consisting of street levelers and mid-tiers. Therefore meaning he would expend energy at a much faster rate, not to mention I don't really agree with the 'three weeks' assessment to begin with...
  2. Nefaria doesnt need to completely run out of energy for hulk to get a win, the main point is that Nefaria will be getting progressively weaker whilst hulk is getting considerably stronger, and then consider that Nefaria is outclassed to begin with.

This should be the icing on the cake for hulk to get a very convincing win in my opinion.

Summary:

  • Hulk is stronger, hits harder and has a much higher damage output than the count can even dream to match
  • Hulk's durability combined with his healing factor is leagues above what Nefaria can overcome
  • Hulk's speed is more than sufficient enough to land hits without trouble, and factoring in Nefaria's character is enough to land surprise blitz's and bulrushes
  • Nefaria will get weaker, Hulk will only get stronger
  • Hulk is the overall more powerful character of the two and outclasses him by a decent margin, ergo, Hulk smash ;)

This is it for my opener, best of luck in your reply mate, i'm looking forward to seeing what Nefaria really brings to the table outside of what I already know about him. Looking forward to it.

@heirtothekingdom

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#12 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@heirtothekingdom: just giving you another tap in case you didn't get the above notification.

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#13 Posted by TheIncredibleSuperHulk8642 (4463 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#14 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9201 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel: Your opener is way better than mine lol. I'm going to need some time to construct an equally great counter post.

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#15 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@heirtothekingdom: any idea when you can get your reply up? Just saying because I'm away for the next 6 days so don't feel rushed about finishing it bro.

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#18 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9201 posts) - - Show Bio

@heirtothekingdom: any idea when you can get your reply up? Just saying because I'm away for the next 6 days so don't feel rushed about finishing it bro.

I'm going to have to forfeit. After looking at Nefaria's feats and comparing it to the Hulk's, I don't think I can win. Sorry man.

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#19 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9201 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedailybagel: By the way I hope we can have a debate in the future. The Hulk is just a really hard character to defeat lol.

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#20 Posted by P00TY (5781 posts) - - Show Bio

CN is one of those characters that you know is powerful but doesn't have the showings.

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#21 Posted by Thedailybagel (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@heirtothekingdom: no worries bro, it was a really uphill task to begin with and nefaria doesn't have a plethora of showings. And yeah, I hope so as well :)

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#22 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9201 posts) - - Show Bio

@p00ty said:

CN is one of those characters that you know is powerful but doesn't have the showings.

Haha, I agree man.

@heirtothekingdom: no worries bro, it was a really uphill task to begin with and nefaria doesn't have a plethora of showings. And yeah, I hope so as well :)

Thanks for understand! :)