CaV: Count Dooku(hellothere5432) vs Gandalf(ComicGirl21). Voting round open.

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hellothere5432

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#1  Edited By hellothere5432

Count Dooku(@hellothere5432)

No Caption Provided

Gandalf (@comicgirl21)

No Caption Provided

Rules for the debaters and battle:

  • The victor will be decided by popular vote. There is no limited number of judges, nor are judges selected prior to the debate.
  • Canon Count Dooku however his legends feat of throwing multiple ships will be included and he will be allowed 3 legends accolades to make it more interesting. Legends arguments regarding these three accolades and the cruiser feat are also allowed.
  • Composite Gandalf.
  • Count Dooku is in his prime.
  • Gandalf is in his prime.
  • Speed is equalised.
  • 3 posts each
  • In character and fully serious.
  • Random encounter
  • The battle takes place on an empty and open field
  • Remain civil and respectful and may the best debater win.

Rules for the voters:

  • Vote for who you think had the better points, or the more realistic arguments regarding the fight. Don't vote based on your personal preferences or based on who you think should win .
  • Give always a reasoning for your vote, try to give details and if possible write a overall analysis of the CaV.
  • To prevent from alts damaging the voting part, users with less than 150 posts wont' be allowed to vote.
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hellothere5432

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ComicGirl21

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@comicgirl21 Are these rules cool with you?

They are nearly perfect. If I may suggest one little thing, we can discuss excluding judges who have less than 500 posts, because of the ongoing alt issues on CV. But if that's too harsh of a rule for you, you can propose some other method of achieving a sincere verdict. That's just what worked for me in the past.

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hellothere5432

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@hellothere5432 said:

@comicgirl21 Are these rules cool with you?

They are nearly perfect. If I may suggest one little thing, we can discuss excluding judges who have less than 500 posts, because of the ongoing alt issues on CV. But if that's too harsh of a rule for you, you can propose some other method of achieving a sincere verdict. That's just what worked for me in the past.

I don't mind. Though maybe less than 150 posts is better, because there are a lot of genuine users with under 500 posts. And everyone who votes needs to give good reasons for why they voted for who they did.

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ComicGirl21

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hellothere5432

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@hellothere5432: That's great, let's do that then!

Cool. Will have my post up in around a week if not sooner. Good luck :)

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ComicGirl21

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@comicgirl21 said:

@hellothere5432: That's great, let's do that then!

Cool. Will have my post up in around a week if not sooner. Good luck :)

And good luck to you! :* I'm sure this'll be an awesome debate. Can't wait to see your post, give my boy Tyranus a good head start!

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GodlyShinigami

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TAEP

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Morningstar999

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Lmao. TAEP, I can't miss this please.

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deactivated-61a94331705e8

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gdara

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TAEP.

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Darthor

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#15 Darthor  Online

@hellothere5432 said:

@comicgirl21 Are these rules cool with you?

They are nearly perfect. If I may suggest one little thing, we can discuss excluding judges who have less than 500 posts, because of the ongoing alt issues on CV. But if that's too harsh of a rule for you, you can propose some other method of achieving a sincere verdict. That's just what worked for me in the past.

I really don't think you should do this. A better option is to judge whether to accept their vote based on the quality of their explanations. That being said, T4V and TAEP

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Betatesthighlander1

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TAEP

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ComicGirl21

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@darthor: Obviously we don't want to exclude anyone, but alts are also a problem. We got down to 150 posts so we kinda met mid-way on that. I think that should be fair :*

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#19 Darthor  Online

@darthor: Obviously we don't want to exclude anyone, but alts are also a problem. We got down to 150 posts so we kinda met mid-way on that. I think that should be fair :*

fair enough

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#20 Aryan87  Online

TAEP.

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Uhu123

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TAEP please.

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@comicgirl21 said:

@hellothere5432: That's great, let's do that then!

Cool. Will have my post up in around a week if not sooner. Good luck :)

How's your opening post doing? :) Glad we're having this debate!

Also, bump!

OOOOPS Did I just bump this? I swear I didn't mean it.
OOOOPS Did I just bump this? I swear I didn't mean it.

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hellothere5432

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@comicgirl21:

How's your opening post doing? :) Glad we're having this debate!

Also, bump!

Very well. It will be out by Friday at the latest. Apologies for the delay, I've been busy recently.

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@comicgirl21:

How's your opening post doing? :) Glad we're having this debate!

Also, bump!

Very well. It will be out by Friday at the latest. Apologies for the delay, I've been busy recently.

Stupendously splendid!

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Dooku

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hellothere5432

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@hellothere5432 said:

@comicgirl21:

How's your opening post doing? :) Glad we're having this debate!

Also, bump!

Very well. It will be out by Friday at the latest. Apologies for the delay, I've been busy recently.

Stupendously splendid!

My post will be out in the coming days. It's taking a bit longer than I expected. Apologies for the delay

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#29  Edited By hellothere5432

Opening thoughts and Initial Reasoning:

Firstly I want to apologise for the delay, been very busy recently irl and haven't had enough time to properly work on my opener. Anyway, my initial thoughts on this battle are quite clear. I don't see how Gandalf is going to best Count Dooku/ Darth Tyranus. My reasoning for this mainly stems from Dooku's knowledge, power and experience both in the force and in combat allowing him to both counter the worst of Gandalf's spells and overwhelm the wizard with his superior TK. Count Dooku's force lighting will also give him a large advantage, with none save Yoda being shown to possess enough power to block it without a lightsaber, a weapon which Gandalf doesn't possess. Even assuming Gandalf's staff is capable of blocking Dooku's force lighting, Gandalf himself would still be greatly challenged to merely block Dooku's force lighting. Gandalf would also be overwhelmed by Dooku's superior force power which would grant the Count an opening to abuse his force lighting and once he does that, then its game over for Gandalf.Now I will explain in depth, why Count Dooku takes this fight more often than not:

Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus:

No Caption Provided

Bio:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Dooku.

Asajj Ventress and Savage Oppress Scaling:

In TCW S3 Count Dooku takes on the combined might of Asajj Ventress and Savage Oppress:

Apart from the part of the fight where Savage Oppress was rage amped, therefore far more powerful than usual and one instance of Savage momentarily overpowering Count Dooku with his strength, Count Dooku was dominating the team, kicking Ventress round at every turn and constantly stunning Savage with lighting. The multiple sources on the fight further reinforce Dooku's far superiority to the team:

"This was not to be, as the Sith Lord was too strong with the dark side and survived the attack.

Source:http://www.starwars.com/databank/count-dooku

"Yet when the moment arose, Ventress and Opress were not powerful enough to destroy Dooku, and the monster turned against both."

Source:http://www.starwars.com/databank/asajj-ventress

"But Dooku proved too strong for even their combined efforts - and Savage finally snapped under the strain of his abusive training, turning his fury on both Dooku and Ventress."

Source:http://www.starwars.com/databank/asajj-ventress-biography-gallery

"Although Opress escapes, he displeases Dooku, leading to brutal combat. Then Ventress strikes. Unable to best the powerful Dooku, the two escape."

Source: Insider 122

With one quote even describing Dooku as far beyond Asajj Ventress and Savage Oppress's combined might in the force:

"Asajj Ventress and Savage Opress wage a combined attack against Dooku, whose abilities with the Force far surpass those of his apprentices."

Source:http://www.starwars.com/video/dooku-vs-his-apprentices

Count Dooku was far more powerful than the combined might of Asajj Ventress and Savage Oppress. This might not seem like much at first however once one dives deep into the latter's feats, it becomes incredible.

Let's start of with Savage Oppress:

As of S3, Savage already possessed a variety of highly impressive feats such as these:

Savage blasts through heavy metal, sending it flying back:

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Savage force pushes a large ship off a platform:

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Savage destroys a cell made of iron, killing a fully armoured in the process:

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(Note: I am aware of this being TCW S5 Savage who is stronger than TCW S3 Savage who Dooku was stated to be far above. However Dooku himself enjoyed considerable growth throughout TCW so it evens out.Same applies for the Asajj Ventress feats.)

No Caption Provided

Source for the cell being made of Iron:

They lead Satine to a prison cell in her own palace, shutting her in a little room with a cot, desk, and chair, behind a door made of Mandalorian iron.

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

Now this feat in particular is extremely impressive. Firstly we know how much Mandalorian equipment and weaponry was created to counter Jedi and their weapons. The writers intent is very clear with this feat and there is several showing supporting it , such as the fact that Mandalorian armour is capable of tanking lightsaber strikes as proven in the Mandalorian:

No Caption Provided
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And as this source make clear, Mandalorian armour and technology is extremely durable and is designed to hold force users. So for Savage to be able to break through it and kill a fully armoured Mandalorian soldier in the process is extremely impressive.

Now lets look at Asajj Ventress:

Ventress was easily overpowering an army of pirates with nothing but the force.

Ventress had been using a combination of the Force and the pirates' own blasters to methodically mow them down. It was almost too easy. She'd already incapacitated the half-dozen who had been unloading the cargo ship, and Hondo had brought only another ten back with him. There was an ample supply of things to hurl at them—pitchers, a crate and the sharp-edged tools it was filled with, mugs, stools, even the pirates themselves could be used to knock their fellows down.

Source: Kindred Spirits

Ventress uproots a tree.

It was a faint sound, but both of them tensed. Moregi must have thought that they were so engaged in exchanging quips that he could sneak past them. Ventress’s respect for the unnamed bounty-stealer went up a small notch. Few ears were sharp enough to have detected the soft noise. It was time to end this, and her patience—both with the Idiot and with the bounty—had worn out.

Ventress homed in on the source of the sound, extended a hand, and casually uprooted the tree behind which Moregi had been hiding. He stared at her, four eyes wide with shock, then fled toward the edge of the rooftop.

Source: Dark Disciple

Ventress overpowers TCW Movie Anakin with the force and pins him to a wall:

But Ventress wasn't defenseless. As Anakin ducked and used the Force to push him backward, taking him by surprise. He smashed against the wall, dropping his lightsaber.

Ventress held our her right hand and a lightsaber flew into it. She advanced on Anakin, pinning him against the wall.

Source: The Clone Wars Junior Novelisation

So to recap:

Count Dooku is far more powerful than the combined might of Savage Oppress and Asajj Ventress. Savage having highly impressive feats such as blasting through heavy metal, force pushing a large ship of a platform and breaking through Mandalorian armour, killing a fully armoured Mandalorian in the process. Mandalorian armour being lightsaber proof to a degree, making it incredibly durable. Ventress also possessing multiple highly impressive feats such as dominating TCW Movie Anakin Skywalker with the force, casually wiping out an army of pirates with the force and uprooting a tree.Extremely impressive that's for sure.

Force pushing RotS Obi Wan with a "whipcrack of power:"

Aboard the Invisible Hand, Dooku fought Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in a duel. During the skirmish, Dooku used the Force to knock Obi-Wan aside:

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.

Source: Revenge of the Sith Novelisation

The movie novels are canon where they align with what is on screen. Since nothing explicitly contradicts Dooku using a mere "whipcrack," of his power to push Obi Wan, we can assume that this is the case:

''To clarify, movie novelizations are canon where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie.''

Source: Twitter Star Wars Books @DelReyStarWars / 30.04.2014

I am not one of the people who believe Dooku tossing Kenobi around the room was legitimate. However, Dooku still sent him flying against a wall and even temporarily knocked him out cold with a minuscule fraction of his power. Keep in mind, Obi Wan due to having a high level of power in the force has a much higher durability than the average human which makes this feat all the more outstanding.This demonstrates that, in Force power, Dooku is ahead of Revenge of the Sith Obi-Wan Kenobi by a noticeable margin- at the very minimum Kenobi as of the Battle of Coruscant.

Because of this feat being significantly above the other ones, I thought I would make a special note of it. Now let's move on to more general feats and accolades for the Count.

Force Power:

Count Dooku brings down a chunk of a stone ceiling on Yoda:

No Caption Provided

Dooku crushes the base of a huge pillar with a mere gesture:

No Caption Provided

Dooku lifts about a dozen heavy obelisk stones:

No Caption Provided

Dooku overpowers and disarms Asajj Ventress with the force alone:

No Caption Provided

Dooku collapses a cave entrance:

No Caption Provided

Dooku floors around a dozen Pyke guards and staggers Anakin and Obi Wan simultaneously:

No Caption Provided

Dooku dominates Asajj Ventress and Quinlan Vos with the force. Quinlan Vos being an esteemed Jedi Master and Ventress possessing many great feats as shown above:

"He stood tall, imposing, and as Vos raced toward him, Dooku didn't flinch. He lowered his sword and extended his hand. Vos rose in the air and then Dooku shoved, sending the Jedi slamming into one of the pillars. The count turned, almost nonchalantly performing the same maneuver with Ventress. The wind was knocked out of her and she couldn't breathe. Stubbornly, using her hate the way she had taught Vos to do, she summoned energy to to push herself up to a kneeling position, still clutching her lightsaber.

Dooku's lip curled in a manner that might have been a smile or a snarl. Abruptly, Ventress found herself dangling in in the air as he whirled her around behind him and then threw her down like a spoiled child discarding a disliked toy.

The pain was excruciating, but Ventress remained conscious long enough to see that Dooku wasn't yet done. She could only watch helplessly as she slid, headfirst, into the unyielding stone of a meticulously carved bench. Then the world went white, and she knew nothing more."

Source: Dark Disciple

As well as Count Dooku's accolades further cementing his immense power in the force:

"It is Yoda who brings the newly-created Clone Army to the Battle of Genosis (22 BBY), and it is Yoda who confronts an escaping Count Dooku for a spectacular Lightsaber clash, one super-powerful Force warrior battling another."

Source: Star Wars Trading Card Game

"I play a character called Count Dooku, a battle-scarred Jedi. He's obviously a man of immense power — mental power, and physical power."

Source:https://youtu.be/5z35FU-J1I8?t=375

"Now, I agree wholeheartedly that Dooku is incredibly powerful."

Source:https://youtu.be/4o1fd-M3aBo?t=34

"Kill him! Kill him, you fool!"

"I... can't. He's too... powerful."

Source: Savage Oppress and Asajj Ventress against Count Dooku

It's safe to say that Dooku is beyond Gandalf in TK, based off his showings, immense scaling and accolades.

Force Lightning:

Count Dooku's force lightning has been shown to be extremely powerful in all of its uses.Several examples would include:

Dooku's force lightning was strong enough to incapacitate AOTC Anakin Skywalker:

No Caption Provided

But this was no simple warrior enemy. Dooku's hand shot out toward the charging Jedi, sending forth a Force push as solid as any stone wall, and a burst of blue Force lightning, unknown to Jedi, charged all about the trapped and lifted Jedi Padawan. Anakin managed to hold onto his lightsaber as he went up into the air, held there by the power of the Count. With a wave of his hand, Dooku sent Anakin flying across the room, to crash into a distant wall, where he slumped down, dazed.

Source: Attack of the Clones Novelisation.

Even Master Yoda, one of the most powerful Jedi ever struggled to absorb Dooku's lightning:

"Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily."

Source: Attack of the Clones Novelisation

I could link respect threads for Master Yoda however I think his power goes without saying, so for Yoda to struggle to block Dooku's lighting with the force is extremely impressive.

Dooku's lightning was strong enough to momentarily subdue Savage Oppress, someone with insane durability feats:

Despite collapsing in pain from a blaster bolt wound and having an injury from a ship crash reopen, Dooku fires Lightning so powerful that it kills Asajj Ventress.Obi-Wan later states that she sacrificed herself to save Quinlan Vos, indicating that he would've been killed had the Lightning struck him instead:

"Another blaster bolt, and this time, it hit. Dooku had just made it to the threshold when he suddenly arched in pain and collapsed.

--

Vos inspected the wound, then rolled Dooku’s limp form over. “There’s nothing we can do now about the blaster burn, but this injury from the crash has reopened.” Gently, Vos picked Ventress up and laid her down beside the unconscious Dooku. He took her good arm and placed it on Dooku’s injury. “Keep pressure on it,” he said.

--

Vos saw Ventress’s eyes open wide. Her body went taut and she seemed to be staring at something he couldn’t see. Fear exploded in him, quivering in the pit of his belly, and he shook her, gently.

“Asajj?”

“No,” she whispered, her eyes still unfocused, frighteningly blank. Then, “No!”

Violently, she shoved Vos away, putting the Force into the movement so powerfully that he was hurled across the room. As he struck the wall, he heard a terrifyingly familiar sound: the sizzle and crackle of Force lightning.

Dooku stood, his teeth bared in a savage snarl of victory. Ventress was caught in the most violent bolts of Force lightning Vos had ever seen. They danced and crackled about her hungrily, almost like living creatures. Her body spasmed and her face contorted into a mask of absolute agony. Blood trickled from her ears, eyes, and nose.

“Asajj!” Vos cried, leaping between Ventress and Dooku. He activated his lightsaber, deflecting the Force lightning back onto Dooku. The count’s eyes widened in comprehension a split second before his own weapon turned on him, disloyal, as things of the dark always were. Dooku was flung back and lay on the ground, screaming and trembling, then lying still as the bolts faded.

Ventress lay unmoving on the floor. Her clothes—and her body itself—emitted wisps of smoke. “No,” Vos moaned. She was breathing, but her pulse was thready and she was still, so terribly still. “Asajj…no…no…!”

Fury, as intense and primal as the bolts that had nearly killed her, shuddered through him, and the world went red. Vos threw back his head and voiced his rage, whirling on the count as he lay, shivering and gasping for breath, on the stone floor.

Three strides brought Vos to Count Dooku. He pressed the humming blade close to Dooku’s neck.

“Do…it,” rasped Dooku. Impossibly, he was smiling. “The lightning wasn’t…for her. It was for you. She just…got in the way. Go on. Take…your revenge!”

Vos’s heart shook his body with its pounding, its aching, its demands. His gaze flickered to Ventress, lying so terrifyingly motionless. His vision blurred. It took him a moment to realize that tears were falling down his face in a river of pain. The dark, rage-filled tide inside him receded, leaving in his heart only the truth of the tears. The count still smiled, still anticipated the final step that would turn Vos irrevocably to the dark side.

“I am not your kind,” Vos said, his voice thick. “I do not feed off vengeance.” Truth was quiet. It did not need to shout or to demand. It simply existed. “I am a Jedi.”

Vos deactivated his lightsaber. Ventress was still alive, and hope, cruel and beautiful and agonizing, flared in his chest as he rushed to her.

“Vos.” He didn’t turn around at the sound of Kenobi’s voice. Somehow, he was unsurprised that Obi-Wan was here, at this moment. “We’ll take him from here.”

Vos simply nodded. He might still be executed. He would certainly be taken back to the Council in chains. But none of that mattered. Everything that mattered was here, right before him. He felt raw in this moment—cracked open and laid bare. His senses were heightened and he was almost painfully aware of everything: the smell of blood and scorched flesh; the steady slip of tears down his angular cheekbones, and their salty taste; the coppery tang of blood and fear in his mouth. He saw that strange patterns now decorated Ventress’s bone-white skin; traces of darker flesh that looked like lightning bolts. The Force lightning had marked her for its own.

Ventress’s breathing grew labored. He wanted to hold her, to keep her alive through the sheer force of his will, but he was afraid touching her would cause her more pain. Her beautiful, ice-blue eyes opened, and she smiled. He tried to return her smile, and failed miserably.

“Hey, handsome,” Ventress murmured.

Vos gave a shaky laugh through the tears. “Hey, yourself.”

“I won’t break, you know.” No. She would never break. Not Asajj Ventress. At the invitation, Vos gathered her as gently as possible in his arms. The movement caused her to cough violently. “I’m…”

Blood ran from her mouth, soaking his shirt. He bit back a sob. “Don’t try to speak.”

Ventress gave him a look that was so completely her, it tore him apart. “You don’t…tell me what to do, Idiot.”

A small smile surprised him. “Never could,” he admitted.

“Damn right.” Another bout of coughing racked her thin frame, and for a devastating, heart-scalding second Vos thought this would take her. But she continued. “I’m proud of you for…what you did over there. You chose loving me instead of hating him.” Her bloody-frothed lips curved in a smile. “Best choice you’ve ever made.”

Vos wept unashamedly, cradling her, stroking her face. He wanted to memorize its every curve, sear it into his memory, then realized that he had already done so. “It was,” he agreed. He swallowed hard. “Asajj…you were right. I—I did fall to the dark side. And I’ve been there this whole time. I just…I didn’t…know!”

“You lied to yourself,” Ventress whispered. “That’s…why I couldn’t tell.”

“I love you, and I’ve never stopped, not for a moment.” Here, at the end, Vos had to make sure she—

“I know,” Ventress said. “But you did stop lying.” She shuddered deeply. Vos felt his heart crack. Her fingers dug into his arm tightly and her gaze bored into his. “Remember…you always have a choice to be better. You always have a choice to…to pick the right path.” She smiled sadly. “Even if that choice comes a little late.”

No, it couldn’t be too late. Vos still had to tell her everything he’d felt. How his heart had jumped the first time she had touched him tenderly, caring for his injury on the Banshee. That seemed like a lifetime ago. When she’d asked him how she looked in the ball gown, he should have told her. And when they had first kissed—Asajj Ventress had changed everything in his world, was still changing it, right this minute. But there was too much to say, and not enough time to say it, and the words crowded his throat and choked him into silence.

With an effort, Ventress reached to touch his face, tracing the yellow tattoo, lingering over his lips. When she spoke, her voice was so faint that he had to strain to hear it. “And always remember…that I loved you, with all of my heart.”

He had known it. But he had never before heard it from her lips. Now he found he could speak, the simplest of words. “I will.”

Ventress took a shuddering breath. The tension left her body, and she relaxed into his embrace as her eyes began to close.

No.

“Asajj,” Vos begged. “Asajj. Please don’t go.”

Her eyes flickered open, and a corner of her mouth turned up. “I have to, Quinlan. It’s my time now. My sisters…are waiting.”

Fear such as he had never known seized Vos, and he tightened his arms around her, as if by holding on he could somehow prevent death from taking her. “Please…please don’t…”

“You must let me go, my love,” Ventress said, her voice so gentle, so tender, and she smiled lovingly. “It’s the Jedi way.”

And she was gone.

--

“Asajj Ventress moved Vos out of harm’s way, taking the full brunt of Dooku’s Force lightning upon herself,” Kenobi said. “She sacrificed her life to save him.”

Source: Dark Disciple

Simply put, Gandalf will have an extremely hard if not impossible time dealing with Dooku's lightning. Combine this with Dooku's immense TK power and the wizard goes down. Dooku's lightning would either outright kill or at least momentarily incapacitate Gandalf which would allow Dooku to easily finish the wizard off with his lightsaber.

Conclusion:

  • Count Dooku has a similar level of raw power as shown from both his scaling, feats and accolades. This will allow him to both counter the worst of Gandalf's attacks and overwhelm Gandalf with his superior TK.
  • Count Dooku's multiple decades of experience in both combat and in the force will allow him to both not be taken by surprise by Gandalf's spells and to be able to counter the worst of Gandalf's attacks alongside his power.
  • Count Dooku's lightning will be extremely hard if not outright impossible for Gandalf to deal with. If hit with the lightning, Gandalf will either die instantly or would at least be incapacitated long enough for the Count to finish him off with his lightsaber.
  • Count Dooku wins this more often than not.

Ball's in your court @comicgirl21

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Morningstar999

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Nice.

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Darthor

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#32 Darthor  Online

@hellothere5432 Insane opener. Captured all the parts where Dooku has the definite advantage against Gandalf

Although, I know you have TPM Maul and Dooku as equals. And Savage is stated as being above TPM Maul, what is your justification for TPM Maul and Dooku being equal when you have Dooku >>> Savage?

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ComicGirl21

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@hellothere5432: yesssss, I've been waiting for this! <3 I'll give it a read today and prep some awesome counters for tomorrow. :)

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Dooku solo

It's a second time you're breaking our CaV rules. Please remove your comments or I'll have mods do it.

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SheevSmacker

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@comicgirl21: I no know how to removing comment. How is break CAV rule?

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hellothere5432

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@darthor:

Insane opener. Captured all the parts where Dooku has the definite advantage against Gandalf

Thanks :)

Although, I know you have TPM Maul and Dooku as equals. And Savage is stated as being above TPM Maul, what is your justification for TPM Maul and Dooku being equal when you have Dooku >>> Savage?

Where is Savage stated to be above TPM Maul? In S3 Dooku stated that TPM Maul was stronger. And Maul has a supremacy quote over Savage as of S4 when he's weaker than he was in TPM.

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geekryan

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T4V

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hellothere5432

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@hellothere5432: yesssss, I've been waiting for this! <3 I'll give it a read today and prep some awesome counters for tomorrow. :)

Nice. Looking forward to your post :)

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@comicgirl21: I no know how to removing comment. How is break CAV rule?

You have close to 4k posts and "you no know" how to remove a comment? And you don't know what CaV's are and what are the rules? Bruh.

CaV is a debate between two users. Others are not allowed to post and debate until the voting phase.

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My opener was almost ready, so this actually took a lot less then I expected. Enjoy!

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#42  Edited By ComicGirl21

Post #1 THE MIGHT

Gandalf, the White Pilgrim
Gandalf, the White Pilgrim

Brief intro

It’s finally here! Our Dooku vs Gandalf CaV. It’s been like 2 years since I last CaVed with a LOTR character (you show Clint who’s a better archer here, Leggy!) and since I’ve been a LOTR crazy fangirl for the longest time and love representing the lore, I’ve been looking forward to this one.

My motif for doing this CaV is simple. I noticed recently that vast majority of Viners rate Gandalf decisively below high and even mid-tier SW force users. Initially I agreed myself, but thought this required a deeper analysis. After doing some research I came to a conclusion that general consensus couldn’t be more wrong! And I’m here to prove it, and return some respect to our boy Gandalf.

As for this CaV - there is a LOT to be said about Gandalf. He’s a major character in 6 absurdly long-ass movies and four books. Then there’s craploads of canon-licensed games, art gallery novels and other materials for the Jacksonverse, on top of some mentions in Silmarillion and other post-Tolkien works, and much more. For the sake of my posts not taking forever both for me to write and for you to read, I’ve decided to present Gandalf in all 3 of my posts, little by little:

#1 The Might – My first post will contain info on Gandalf’s origin, authority, experience and core physical stats, on top of some counters for HelloThere5432’s first post, and I will build the foundation of my case for Gandalf based on that.

#2 The Magic – In my second post I will present Gandalf's innate abilities, magical artifacts, spells and inherited powers, and will strengthen my original case with those, while also shooting back some counters to my opponent's second post.

#3 The Conclusion – In my final post I will sum up all of my previous arguments, pointing out which I believe were successfully debunked and which still hold up, and present my final counters. Also, I’ll give my opinion on how the battle would go down.

I will try my best to make it interesting and fun for yall! ;*

Let’s do this!

No Caption Provided

Bio

Gandalf belongs to the race of ancient gods of Middle-Earth known as Ainur, or the Holy Ones, who pre-date Earth and even creation itself. The Holy Ones were created at the dawn of reality, when Iluvatar, the Supreme diety of the Tolkien universe, gave birth to Ainur with his thoughts. Each of the Holy Ones was given a vast understanding of the aspect of divine mind from which it was born. Gandalf, also known as Olorin when he was first born, received an innate understanding of Iluvatar’s perfect wisdom. Because of that, other Holy Ones always held him in great respect. Even though he wasn’t ranked among the most powerful of Ainur (The Valar, or the Supreme Ainur), he most certainly was given wisdom almost unrivaled among all spiritual beings.

Innate divine authority

For the sake of this debate it’s important to grasp how powerful Ainur are when it comes to their spiritual nature. Ainur pre-date reality itself, and were directly responsible for the creation of the universe.

Credit: Silmarillion; The Ainur create the universe
Credit: Silmarillion; The Ainur create the universe

That includes Gandalf, and even though we can only speculate how great was his role in that massive cosmic event, taking into consideration how vast universe is, and how limited is the full number of Ainur, we should still conclude that Gandalf in his original form is an absurdly powerful cosmic being, easily responsible for the creation of multiple galaxies, and I genuinely believe this is a very moderate estimate. I've seen Gandalf put on High Universe level power tier on some forums, but I personally think that's pushing it a little.

Either way, I just wanted to let you guys know, that if Gandalf was allowed to fight in his original form, he would effortlessly solo the verse as far as SW goes. Something to think about.

A painting of the Holy Ones creating the Middle-Earth universe out of The Void with their celestial music
A painting of the Holy Ones creating the Middle-Earth universe out of The Void with their celestial music

After the creation event Ainur took different roles on planet Earth, where their powers were greatly suppressed by Iluvatar. They were separated into many smaller groups and begun tending to a lot more grounded, non-cosmic tasks. The order of Holy Ones Gandalf belongs to is called the Istari. These particular Ainur were designated by the Valar to leave their paradise island, descend to Middle-Earth and fight Sauron, a rogue Ainur set on dominating the free world. Istari were forced to inhabit flesh similar to that of mortal races, and took upon themselves many restrictions when it comes to their vast powers. The reason for this was that they were only supposed to guide mortal races to victory against Sauron, and thus teach them to fight their own battles against evil. This, in turn, would also be a second “layer” of restrictions given to Ainur, as all of them were heavily restrained by Iluvatar first when they descended to newly created Earth in the first place.

The order of Istari Wizards: Left to Right - Pallando the Blue, Radagast the Brown, Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey and Alatar the Blue.
The order of Istari Wizards: Left to Right - Pallando the Blue, Radagast the Brown, Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey and Alatar the Blue.

This is how we go down from Gandalf being a divine cosmic entity directly responsible for creation of vast portions of cosmos to an old man with a staff – first, he was restricted by the Supreme Deity when he descended to Earth, and then was given additional restrictions, including a mortal body by the Valar gods upon being sent to Middle-Earth in the Third Age.

Despite this it’s still crucial to understand that Gandalf is still an extremely powerful being, both innately, and factually when we look at his feats. So let’s not waste any time and look at Gandalf in his human form (which is the form Dooku will be fighting) at his most powerful – which is after his mortal body of Gandalf the Grey was killed by another powerful Ainur called Balrog, and he was reborn as Gandalf the White.

Rebirth

Gandalf comes back from the dead in the form of Gandalf the White, empowered by Iluvatar.
Gandalf comes back from the dead in the form of Gandalf the White, empowered by Iluvatar.

While Gandalf the Grey is no slouch and will still play a vital role when I will be presenting Gandalf’s feats and abilities, its crucial to understand how immense was his power-up when Iluvatar personally sent him back to Earth in his new body.

Let’s start with an outright statement that Gandalf, after he was reborn became the most dangerous being on the face of the Earth (at the very least, the most dangerous being Gimli would’ve been able to see), with the only exception being Sauron himself.

Gandalf is the most dangerous being on the face of the Earth in Gimli’s generation
Gandalf is the most dangerous being on the face of the Earth in Gimli’s generation

This means, Gandalf is more powerful than all of these guys:

Galadriel, the most powerful elf sorceress in Middle-Earth, known to be even feared by Sauron, shown atomizing an orc with a blast so powerful it parts the clouds.
Galadriel, the most powerful elf sorceress in Middle-Earth, known to be even feared by Sauron, shown atomizing an orc with a blast so powerful it parts the clouds.
Saruman of Many Colors, previous head of the Wizard Order, showing enough power to command the clouds, thunders and a blizzards to do his bidding on a gigantic, multi-country scale.
Saruman of Many Colors, previous head of the Wizard Order, showing enough power to command the clouds, thunders and a blizzards to do his bidding on a gigantic, multi-country scale.
Smaug the terrible, a great dragon known for his near invulnerability and extremely hot fire breath, capable of decimating entire kingdoms without finding any challenge.
Smaug the terrible, a great dragon known for his near invulnerability and extremely hot fire breath, capable of decimating entire kingdoms without finding any challenge.
Tom Bombadil, a mysterious god-like being governing his own domain, who’s shown immense control over the powers of nature, undead spirits, and even the One Ring.
Tom Bombadil, a mysterious god-like being governing his own domain, who’s shown immense control over the powers of nature, undead spirits, and even the One Ring.
Durin’s Bane, a powerful Balrog who stalemated Gandalf in the past, slaughtered a whole dwarf nation single-handedly and broke a side of the mountain as collateral damage to his battle.
Durin’s Bane, a powerful Balrog who stalemated Gandalf in the past, slaughtered a whole dwarf nation single-handedly and broke a side of the mountain as collateral damage to his battle.

If Gandalf is more powerful then all of these guys, just how powerful is he? Statements like these and the fact that Gandalf directly scales to some of these characters, whom he directly fought (for example Saruman or Balrog) are the reason why Gandalf is ranked at country+ level of Attack Potency on some forums, and though I'm not making any such claims myself, it’s hard to disagree with that conclusion when you look deeper into what his capabilities on paper truly are. I’ll write some more on this topic in my post #2 “the Magic” where I will be exploring the direct potency of Gandalf’s spells.

Secondly Gandalf’s new body is no longer a body of a mortal that he was given by the Valar. His new body given to him by Iluvatar himself allows for much more of his innate power to be released and has a divine, metaphysical nature.

Gandalf’s new body is almost weightless and seems intangible.

Credit: The Two Towers
Credit: The Two Towers

His new body no longer requires food or drink to survive. He no longer needs to sleep either, and sitting entire days on a top of a frozen peak of a mountain, completely naked, doesn’t bother him at all.

Credit: The Two Towers
Credit: The Two Towers

His senses became transcendent. While sitting on the mountain top, he can hear people talking around the world Superman style.

No Caption Provided

In short if you came here thinking Dooku is going to be fighting an old grandpa with a magic staff, you're in for a surprise!

Summary

To sum up, Gandalf in his Grey form was a powerful Ainur, however clothed with human, mortal flesh and with his power significantly restricted. Gandalf the White on the other hand, has received divine, transcendent body on top of his Ainur spirit and is significantly less restricted because of that. In fact, he is the most powerful being on the face of Middle-Earth apart from Sauron. Based on all of this it should be easy to pick up that Dooku, being a mere human in the middle of the Sith tier will have a hard time competing here. All of this will be important as we move on to his feats.

Skill and experience

Before I move on to Gandalf’s stats, I want to briefly address his skill.

I believe Gandalf has a significant edge when it comes to fighting skill and combat experience over Dooku. This may not be obvious at first glance, so allow me to back up that statement. Here are my reasons:

Experience

First, there’s an obvious difference when it comes to their age. Gandalf is approximately 24 000 years old!

Gandalf is around 24 000 years old, if we assume 80 years is more or less a full life of a human, which without modern medicine, I’d say is probably a good estimate.
Gandalf is around 24 000 years old, if we assume 80 years is more or less a full life of a human, which without modern medicine, I’d say is probably a good estimate.

Of course, Dooku is old and experienced too, but only by mortal standards. Compared to Gandalf he is just a freshman facing off a grand general who’s seen it all. Gandalf have been trained by actual gods and has seen countless battles and took part in incalculable numbers of duels and skirmishes.

It’s also worth noting that even within his own universe, Dooku just recently became an apprentice to a new master, and his Sith training is still considered incomplete.

Dooku, although considered both particularly skilled and very powerful in his verse, is still only a Sith Apprentice who is yet to reach his full potential when it comes to training and power.
Dooku, although considered both particularly skilled and very powerful in his verse, is still only a Sith Apprentice who is yet to reach his full potential when it comes to training and power.

Meanwhile Gandalf the White is THE HEAD of his order, and so far superior in power and experience to everyone else in his tier, he can literally one shot the second most powerful wizard with one command spell.

In Tolkienverse, compared to Gandalf, everyone is a padawan.
In Tolkienverse, compared to Gandalf, everyone is a padawan.

Attitude

We should also consider the difference in character between the two. Dooku is using assassins like Ventress and Savage, army generals like Grievous and others to do his dirty work for him 90% of the time. He only ever steps in to confront an opponent when there is no other way.

No Caption Provided

We’re also yet to see Dooku actually train or even meditate. We only ever see him fight, command or teach his assassins. His training sessions with Sidious that are technically happening offscreen also have to be very few and far between, considering Palpatine can’t visit him for any longer than a brief moment, since he needs to maintain his act and can’t be followed to Dooku or connected with him at all costs.

What I’m trying to say is – Dooku not only is a child compared to Gandalf, but also isn’t exactly an active Sith Lord with loads of training and action on his hands, he is more of a mastermind general type of a villain who occasionally steps in to cross sabers with someone. Meanwhile, Gandalf is always on the road, always in the forefront of every battle, always getting his sword dirty.

Gandalf is always personally involved. Like here, when he's leading the charge at Black Gates in the first row.
Gandalf is always personally involved. Like here, when he's leading the charge at Black Gates in the first row.

Because of these differences, even if these two were the same age, Gandalf’s edge in combat experience would be massive, simply because of his approach when it comes to battle and leadership.

Combat skill

Next, in regards to Gandalf’s technical skill with a sword in personal combat, I believe him to be superior to Dooku by a considerable margin as well. Gandalf dual-wields a magic sword and a magic staff, and he’s shown true mastery in wielding them against all sorts of opponents.

No Caption Provided
Gandalf one shots a group of fully armored orcs, monsters bred for the sole purpose of battle, dual wielding his staff and sword and displaying impressive fencing skills, agility and precision in the process.
Gandalf one shots a group of fully armored orcs, monsters bred for the sole purpose of battle, dual wielding his staff and sword and displaying impressive fencing skills, agility and precision in the process.
Gandalf one shots multiple Uruk Hai in full plate armor. Each Uruk Hai is a high street level metahuman in heavy gear and with expert combat training.
Gandalf one shots multiple Uruk Hai in full plate armor. Each Uruk Hai is a high street level metahuman in heavy gear and with expert combat training.
Gandalf one shots elite Olog-Hai warrior. These should be considered at least building level in terms of sheer stats, and are also expertly trained for combat.
Gandalf one shots elite Olog-Hai warrior. These should be considered at least building level in terms of sheer stats, and are also expertly trained for combat.
Gandalf kills another Ainur in a duel. Balrog is usually put on small mountain level in stats, and is an ancient being with thousands of years of combat experience just like Gandalf.
Gandalf kills another Ainur in a duel. Balrog is usually put on small mountain level in stats, and is an ancient being with thousands of years of combat experience just like Gandalf.

These feats also give us a good insight into Gandalf's style. Gandalf's style focuses on delivering skillful and powerful attacks, aiming to swiftly one shot his opponent.

Whenever Gandalf doesn’t see an opportunity for a straight one shot, his typical assault includes breaking his opponents guard with a swift, distracting attack and delivering a subsequent heavy blow with his offhand weapon to a vital area.

No Caption Provided
Gandalf's two strike combo - an initial heavy strike to distract or break the guard, and a following, powerful one shot.
Gandalf's two strike combo - an initial heavy strike to distract or break the guard, and a following, powerful one shot.

If we try to incorporate into SW universe fencing practices, this is very reminiscent to Star Wars lightsaber combat style called Djem So or Form V, which is a typical style focused on saber to saber combat and delivering heavy blows that follow swift counters. This is also particularly valuable to me, because this style of combat is very effective against Dooku’s personal style, Makashi. Quoting from the wiki:

No Caption Provided

Quinlan Vos is also a good practical example of this particular weakness of Dooku's style. Quinlan overall is far inferior to Dooku in pretty much everything - his feats when it comes to dueling, using force powers, his training and experience - all of it is far inferior to Dooku. And yet, being a practitioner of the reverse grip version of Form V - Djem So, he was able to beat Dooku in a solo fight twice, abusing the advantage his aggressive, powerful style has over Makashi.

But ComicGirl! - I I hear you say - that is not really applicable since Gandalf is not trained in this exact form! Well, my dear reader, I'm just talking about the principle. We all know that even in Star Wars you don’t really have to be a lightsaber user or know anything about lightsaber forms to keep up with masters of lightsaber combat. Below a handful of examples. To my knowledge, all of these are canon:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

In all of the above examples, we have characters who have not been formally trained in lightsaber combat beat or at least keep up with a force user in at least jedi master tier or above. We’ve also seen Dooku having troubles going up against opponents who are NOT using Djem So, and aren't particularly skilled in lightsaber combat in general, just the basic principle of them being stronger and using heavy, powerful attacks is enough to overwhelm Dooku, who's form isn’t really fit to intercept and counter such attacks:

No Caption Provided

So the general principle should apply here. It really seems to me, that even if we go strictly by SW dueling rules, if an opponent is skilled and experienced enough, he should have no issues dealing even with a masterfully trained lightsaber user. And Gandalf’s has plenty of those qualities, especially compared to the guys above. The similarities between Gandalf’s personal fighting style and Djem So and his overwhelming strength that I will soon address below will all contribute further to increase his advantage in this field.

All he really needs now for his victory in a fencing duel to be unquestionable is a weapon impervious to lightsaber’s heat, and if you’ll take a peek into my Strength: Glamdring section, you’ll find that Gandalf will have no issues there as well.

Based on all of the above, I believe that Gandalf is easily capable of besting Dooku in a straight fencing duel. His experience and skill is much superior, and his agile, heavy attacks will be going right through Dooku’s guard.

PHYSICALS – AGILITY

Now let’s move to stats and physicals, starting with agility and dexterity. For the sake of the debate being about something more than mere speed calcs, we agreed to equalize the speed of our characters. Still, even with their speed equalized I think it is necessary to prove Gandalf can keep up with Dooku in terms of his mobility, because we’ve seen Dooku jump and blink around the battlefield, and I understand that at first glance Gandalf may seem like some elderly warrior who wouldn't be able to keep up with the acrobatics of the force users. I don’t think many people realize, Gandalf can easily match Dooku in that quality too.

I’ve already shown above that Gandalf is no mere old man, but can boost his physical attributes to considerably superhuman degree, and this includes his agility in combat. Even as Gandalf the Grey, he is capable of avoiding and narrowly escaping fast and powerful AOE attacks pretty casually.

No Caption Provided

He can also blind his enemies with a spell, and then instantly accelerate his speed to the point of blitzing his opponents completely and moving FTE.

No Caption Provided

Though Gandalf the White, after receiving his new, divine body I mentioned above, has shown a whole other degree of agility, now being capable of leaping and jumping around like a trained acrobat with ease.

Credit: The Two Towers
Credit: The Two Towers

Here, Gimli is armed and ready to strike with his axe, but Gandalf leaps away too quickly for Gimli to react. Gimli is a master dwarf fighter, capable of keeping pace with Aragorn and Legolas, who both have significant superhuman feats.

Credit: The Two Towers
Credit: The Two Towers

He is not just fast on his feet though. His attacks are equally agile and fast. For example, he can deflect projectiles from the sky with his staff with ease. This is particularly impressive, considering it’s a point blank range and Legolas’s arrows and bow are magical and much faster than normal arrows.

No Caption Provided

And the heck with arrows. Gandalf is skilled enough to catch an air to ground LIGHTNING BLAST, which obviously doubles as a feat for his magic, since swords really don't do that in real life... but still, DAMN!

Overall, I don’t believe Dooku can hope for any advantage over Gandalf in this area. Gandalf is a very agile and dexterous fighter just like Count, capable of leaping away from attacks, and instantly accelerating to his top speed, and both with his footwork and his strikes are just as agile and precise as any force user. Of course I realize Dooku can do all of that too. My point is - with speed equalized, there really is no distinct difference between the two in this field at all.

PHYSICALS – STRENGTH

One of the core reasons I believe Gandalf can prove superior to Dooku in direct sword-on-saber combat, is this very issue of superior strength. Both in his Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White forms, he was capable of boosting his physical body to impressive super-human levels, easily exceeding Dooku’s ability to use force augmentation.

Here’s once again, let's look at Gandalf one-shooting a giant troll with a single strike.

No Caption Provided

Trolls have absurd levels of durability. Though they have a minor weakness when it comes to piercing weapons, their natural hide in itself makes them almost completely impervious to any other means of conventional damage, including cutting damage from swords.

Boromir is a powerful warrior and his sword, giving that he is a Gondorian prince, should be also no fodder weapon. And yet, when he tries to cut a troll, he only injures himself and damages his blade.
Boromir is a powerful warrior and his sword, giving that he is a Gondorian prince, should be also no fodder weapon. And yet, when he tries to cut a troll, he only injures himself and damages his blade.

Trolls can also walk through thick stone walls without even noticing them.

No Caption Provided

And yet, Gandalf's single sword swing is enough to murder a beast of this caliber. But that’s not even the limit of Gandalf’s strength. He can even compete against actual giants like Balrog.

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Not just Balrog’s size, but his durability is also absurdly massive. I mean just look at him bumping around razor sharp stone cliffs at freefall speeds, without taking any major damage whatsoever.

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And yet we can clearly see Gandalf’s attacks are hurting Balrog, shedding his scales and leaking his lava-like blood.

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No Caption Provided

Gandalf also has direct strength feats we can scale from. For example, when his sword clashed against Balrog’s, the force from the clash was so great, the shockwave sent Balrog flying off the bridge and landing on his ass, and yet Gandalf only took a step back, without flinching.

Credit: Fellowship of the Ring
Credit: Fellowship of the Ring

There are MASSIVE implication to this feat. Balrog’s are absolutely enormous in size. In the movies, Balrog was depicted as a gigantic creature that if translated into nature would easily weigh multiple tons and much more than any of our real life large animals.

No Caption Provided

In the books (where the feat is coming from), Balrogs are depicted as even larger. We read his wings spread across the entire Moria Hall, from wall to wall, filling literally the entire space of the gigantic cave. This image may help illustrate better how the Balrog was described.

No Caption Provided

Of course, based on imagery it’s impossible to tell how heavy would Balrog be exactly, but I think it’s only fair if we assume his weight to be bare minimum of 10 tons (As a point of reference, real life large animals like elephants can be as heavy as 7 tons) if my opponent will feel like this is an overblown estimate, I’ll gladly debate this further, but I think this is a pretty fair.

A proof that Balrog’s weight should be calculated at the very least in 10+ ton range can be also found in this quote from The Two Towers:

No Caption Provided

As you can see, when Balrog’s dead body was falling from the peak on which he fought Gandalf, it broke the side of the mountain into rubble. If Balrog was only larger than big animals, but somehow supernaturally light, this obviously would never have happened. I've seen this feat being alternatively used to estimate Balrog's physical strength directly instead of his weight, and of course either way would work for me. But for now let's focus on weight, because to me, this is way more appropriate giving the context.

Why are we talking about Balrog’s size and weight? Well, because a strike from a gigantic creature that can weigh many tons and crush mountain sides on impact would generate an absurd amount of kinetic force when striking, even if we assume he has no super strength on top of his natural size. It’s pretty easy to estimate how powerful was that blow based on the data we have. Here's a quick calculation:

No Caption Provided

An average weight to strike force translation is a multiplicative factor of 3.5. And we’re talking about boxing here, a sword strike would actually be even more powerful, because the total surface connecting the energy is bigger when you punch. Additionally, sword provides a longer leverage and consequently allows us to gain more speed and achieve better impact force.

In short – if we assume Balrog’s rough weight to be 10 tons, and on top of that we grant him no supernatural speed or strength beyond what we see, he’d strike Gandalf with at the very least the force of 350k N

10 tons (10 000 kg) x10 N x3.5 = 350 000 N

We even read in the quote above how Balrog’s gigantic body is sent FLYING by the force of this attack, and his fire-sword bursts into pieces on impact, which is a direct proof I am not blowing this out of proportion. This attack was in fact, just as stupidly powerful as it seems by calculation.

How much force is it? Well based on Newton’s equation (1 N = 1 kg x m/s2) we know that it would be more or less the same impact as getting hit by a compact truck and casually bringing it to a dead stop (compact trucks are roughly 1,628 kg. If a one was driving at full zone speed of 13.8 m/s it would generate about the same force)

And yet take another look at the quote and see… that Gandalf only takes a step back… while he is blocking that attack with one hand (the staff is in his offhand) as if he barely noticed it. Anybody getting Goku vibes?

No Caption Provided

Nothing else really needs to be said here. I think it’s pretty clear Gandalf’s feat puts him at many times superior strength to what we’ve ever seen from Savage, so he will have no troubles of replicating his feat of completely breaking Dooku’s force-augmented guard upon strike. If Gandalf and Dooku connect their blades, Dooku is sent flying with his bones turned into jello. Bare minimum, he should be ragdolled and instantly disarmed like shown here. Sorry Dooku.

No Caption Provided

Glamdring

Last but not least, let’s take a look at Gandalf’s gear. Here at my “Might” post I’ll focus on his sword, while in the “Magic” post you can expect his staff and ring to be presented. Gandalf’s sword is obviously connected to his strength, as it is his core strength multiplier (Gandalf doesn’t really use unarmed combat to fight, similarly to Dooku)

I believe there’s no doubt Gandalf can use Glamdring to cut off Count's head if he gets a shot. Is that fair? I think it is.

The big question is though… if the two engage in a duel, would Gandalf’s sword be even effective against a lightsaber? Won’t Dooku’s blade just burn straight through elven steel? Let’s find out.

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Glamdring is an ancient sword of the King of the Elves from the Realm of Gondolin. As such the blade is a highly magical and very powerful artifact. Glamdring is usually portrayed glowing with cold, white light.

Credit: Fellowship of the Ring
Credit: Fellowship of the Ring

According to Richard Taylor, who created the movie version of the sword, the elvish runes on the handle enchant the blade with protective spells. This explains the feats I’m about to present, because this sword is quite literally indestructible.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

But are these enchantments any good against heat-based weapons, like a lightsaber? It just so happens that we reliably prove they are.

First of all, Gandalf already crossed his blade with an energy-based weapon, this being Balrog’s sword made of condense, magical flame. I've just posted this quote above in the Strength section. The result? Balrog’s sword shatters, Gandalf’s sword is intact. If it wasn’t impervious to heat, I’m thinking there would at least be a small dent in it, wouldn’t it? A dulled side or a chip, some burns, perhaps? After all, we’ve already established that the force of that strike was absolutely enormous… but no, nothing. The sword is fine.

But we have even more confirmation than this. Gandalf used Glamdring as a conduit for his lightning summoning spell later on. That’s a major, and prolonged exposure to a cloud to earth lightning strike, which is 5 times hotter than the surface of the sun.

No Caption Provided

And if you’re thinking – wait a minute, metal rods and antennas that are designed to catch lightning strikes on vehicles or buildings don’t get destroyed by lightning! Well – it’s actually common for lightning strikes to melt or straight explode metal antennas as they pass through them, so that’s not exactly right either.

No Caption Provided

And secondly, lightning only fails to completely melt the metal it passes through most of the times because it strikes so suddenly and passes nearly instantly, that there is simply no time for it to do its job. The lightning Gandalf absorbed however, took at least a couple seconds to pass through as seen in the GIF. That’s actually thousands of times longer than it takes a lightning to pass through your average antenna, considering that lightning travels at 270,000 mph. And yet, the sword didn’t burst or melt due to prolong exposure to lightning. This proves beyond all doubt that the blade’s heat resistance is absolutely extraordinary.

Now I realize that the heat of a lightsaber is a debatable issue. But let’s combine above knowledge with a known fact that there are metals in SW universe that can withstand the heat of the lightsaber, like Beskar:

Even thin plates of beskar used for Mandalorian armor are capable of no-selling intense and consecutive lightsaber strikes no problems
Even thin plates of beskar used for Mandalorian armor are capable of no-selling intense and consecutive lightsaber strikes no problems

Even though they are clearly not immune to heat in general – we see they can be melted almost instantly in a furnace, that I somehow doubt it heats up to well over 5 times the surface of the sun, which is as much as Gandalf’s sword has taken without leaving a mark on the blade.

Beskar is not impervious to heat, despite being almost completely lightsaber-proof. It easily melts within seconds on an open-air furnace.
Beskar is not impervious to heat, despite being almost completely lightsaber-proof. It easily melts within seconds on an open-air furnace.

There should be no reason to doubt that Gandalf’s sword, being a mystical, magic blade that’s already been tested by heat-based weapons and even prolonged exposure to something as super-hot as lightning without being damaged at all, would melt when exposed to a lightsaber strike. With that, I rest my case.

PHYSICALS – DURABILITY

A major aspect of this debate is Gandalf’s ability to survive and tank Dooku’s telekinetic powers. Dooku is famous for pushing around his opponents, choking them, dropping debris on their ass – you name it. How is Gandalf handling all that?

Gandalf is surprisingly durable when telekinesis is involved.

When he fought Saruman, he survived an entire telekinetic battle and was ragdolled many times:

No Caption Provided

Of course, he doesn't have his divine body here and he gets hurt, but it's still hella impressive, considering each of Saruman’s telekinetic strike can shatter solid stone to tiny pieces.

No Caption Provided

If Dooku had that kind of telekinetic power under his sleeve, his force pushes would be shattering organs of his opponents, but we never see such display of power from him. I don’t think an argument can be made that Dooku’s force push or any variations of his telekinetic abilities would be able to take Gandalf the Grey down.

Gandalf can even survive a telekinetic onslaught from Sauron himself. Staff in his hand gets atomized, he is smacked around the battlefield with great force, entire structures around him crumble to pieces, but he still survives. Gandalf’s resistance to telekinetic attacks is insane!

Gandalf survives being exposed to and ragdolled by Sauron's incredibly destructive telekinetic power.
Gandalf survives being exposed to and ragdolled by Sauron's incredibly destructive telekinetic power.

And once again, this is all Gandalf the Grey! Gandalf the White, obviously would straight no-sell any of Dooku's attempts.

As far as durability goes, in the books he do see Gandalf get hurt and we see him bleeding a fair amount of times.

BUT not Gandalf the White. I mentioned already in by Innate divine authority section that when Gandalf was reborn, his body became transcendent and subsequently, it should be also immune to harm. Since its now nearly weightless and intangible he can't really be harmed in a conventional way. This is further supported by Gandalf’s own statement. According to Gandalf the White himself, he is completely immune to weapons, even magical ones.

Gandalf reveals to Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn, that none of them could hurt him if they tried.
Gandalf reveals to Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn, that none of them could hurt him if they tried.

This statement is particularly impressive, considering Legolas wields Galadhrim bow and arrows, with which we’ve seen him kill massive drakes called the Fell Beasts (book) and Mumakils (movie) in just one shot. But that’s not even it. The statement also includes Aragorn’s Anduril, which is just about the most powerful weapon in the Tolkienverse. Let's take a closer look to what exactly is Gandalf's body immune:

Strikes of Anduril create explosions and flames on every strike, and can shatter helmets and skulls:

Credit: Fellowship of the Ring
Credit: Fellowship of the Ring

And no, it really isn’t natural for a sword to cut through a helmet.

Helmets are designed to be immune to swords. No matter how stron you are or how sharp the blade is, cutting helmet it half with a sword is basically impossible.
Helmets are designed to be immune to swords. No matter how stron you are or how sharp the blade is, cutting helmet it half with a sword is basically impossible.

A strike from Anduril can devastate a whole horde of Uruk Hai and wild men, cutting through a row of their steel shields and sending them flying. We're now far beyond a simple questions like "can a sword cut a helmed or not" Were approaching some Berserk level shit here.

It’s magical power can manifest in a form of telepathic aura that strikes terror into the hearts of Aragorn’s enemies and can drove away entire armies.

Credit: The Two Towers
Credit: The Two Towers

And did I mention, it was used to kill the most powerful non-Valar Ainur to ever walk the Earth?

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THIS is how massive is Gandalf’s statement.

If Gandalf’s divine, transcendent body is immune to Anduril, I wonder, what hope does Dooku have to kill Gandalf by throwing some rocks at him or applying telekinetic pressure and other such attack? It seems to be an impossibility to me. His only option seems to be cutting Gandalf down with a lightsaber... but would that even work? Visit my pryokinesis - fire resistance section in the next post and find out. :)

PHYSICALS - STAMINA

This will be short, but important none the less. Dooku, like most SW fans acknowledge, has a major weakness when it comes to his overall stats. He is old, and gets tired rather quickly. We see this time and time again that he tries to flee the battlefield after a brief confrontation because he is running out of steam. He gets tired when fighting Anakin and Obi Wan.

He gets tired when he was fighting Ventress and her Nightsister squad. He got tired when he was fighting Yoda. He gets tired when fighting TCW Anakin in a solo fight, and when fighting Anakina and Obi Wan duo and so on. And all of these fights were pretty short too, ranging from under a minute, to a couple of minutes maximum.

Dooku exhaling heavily after his duel against Yoda (Yoda is strong alright, but he fight lasted less then half a minute!)
Dooku exhaling heavily after his duel against Yoda (Yoda is strong alright, but he fight lasted less then half a minute!)
Dooku is exhausted and easily caught off guard after a brief fight against the Nightsisters
Dooku is exhausted and easily caught off guard after a brief fight against the Nightsisters
Once again Dooku is portrayed breathing heavily after a brief duel - this time against Obi Wan and Anakin
Once again Dooku is portrayed breathing heavily after a brief duel - this time against Obi Wan and Anakin
And here Dooku gets pressured and also is portrayed gasping for air when going up against TCW Anakin.
And here Dooku gets pressured and also is portrayed gasping for air when going up against TCW Anakin.

I don’t mean to lowball here, that doesn’t mean Dooku is weaker than TCW Anakin or anything. He actually won some of those fights. Dooku is a very talented and powerful fighter, and when he fights, he leaves a pile of bodies behind. Respect my dude Count! :) He is also a powerful force user and can augment a lot of his stats. No doubts on any of that.

BUT...

His stamina seems to be his returning issue none the less. Dooku is portrayed as getting tired quickly very consistently, and it's pointless to deny that. Almost every time he is engaged in an intense fight, we see him running out of breath and getting tired in a matter of short minutes, sometimes just seconds. When going up against Gandalf, he is into by far the most demanding battle of his lifetime, and he has nowhere to run, and he won't be given any time to catch a breath.

Sidious also seems to underline that Dooku's elderly age was an issue.
Sidious also seems to underline that Dooku's elderly age was an issue.

This combined with Sidious’s comment on how he is looking for someone both more powerful and “younger” provides a very grounded picture of Dooku’s fighting endurance.

A lesser known fact. From the moment Gandalf started fighting Balrog on the bridge to time of his death, a total of 10 days passed.
A lesser known fact. From the moment Gandalf started fighting Balrog on the bridge to time of his death, a total of 10 days passed.

Meanwhile, Gandalf’s most difficult and draining fight against an equally powerful Ainur Balrog lasted a whole 10 days and included running from the bottom of the Earth to the peak of the world on his own two feet. And that was before he received his more powerful body, that doesn’t even need any sustenance to survive and doesn’t seem to be obeying laws of physics at all.

And did I mention, Gandalf was already tired before his fight against Balrog even begun?

No Caption Provided

And... that's it! Yeah, like I said, this really is short, because there is no contest here whatsoever. There is no basis to claim that Dooku can kill Gandalf in a brief fight. And with every passing second Gandalf gains another advantage over his opponent, because Dooku is easily exhausted, especially when fighting a highly demanding adversary, which Gandalf clearly is.

COUNTERS

Even without at all addressing Gandalf's magic properly I still think it's clearly visible how one-sided this battle is. Gandalf is far beyond Dooku's punching grade and anyone from his Star Wars tier for that matter. This will become even more apparent and devastating when I finally DO address the magic in my next post. Stay tuned for that! :)

And now, on to some counters!

Dooku vs Savage and Ventress:

Apart from the part of the fight where Savage Oppress was rage amped, therefore far more powerful than usual

Rage amped? What does that mean? Isn't anger a common emotion that dark force users exploit to gain power when they fight? You know the whole "use your aggressive feelings boy!" and etc? Why do you assume Savage was "amped" by being angry? He really looked angry all the time to me, but maybe that was just my personal expression from watching the show. By that logic, wouldn't force users like Maul who seem constantly pissed off at Obi Wan or others be amped at all time? Sorry I'm just trying to understand, it would help if you elaborated. Is there an author statement or something that tells us Savage got "far more powerful than usual"?

and one instance of Savage momentarily overpowering Count Dooku with his strength, Count Dooku was dominating the team,

Sorry, but I don't think this is a fair portrayal of that encounters. How can you say that Dooku dominated them when Savaged ragdolled him and later overpowered him by getting angry? This really is a very unstable foundation to draw scaling from, obviously Dooku wasn't just "better" than Savage in everything. For example, you yourself noticed that Savage is stronger. But later you're going to claim Dooku's strength somehow scales to Savage's feat of breaking down the door. Sorry, but this argument really isn't the best, you've got to see it man.

kicking Ventress round at every turn and constantly stunning Savage with lighting. The multiple sources on the fight further reinforce Dooku's far superiority to the team.

Yes, Dooku was able to overpower Savage and Ventress, but not because he was just better than both of them in absolutely everything, and the quotes to do not provide any such claim either. I think even the most die-hard Dooku fans would admit that. Dooku was able to handle the situation, because he specifically prepped for this when he trained Savage. He purposely left a gap in his training when it comes to defense against force lightning in order to control him:

No Caption Provided

This is why he was too powerful for Savage to take down.

Did Dooku outmuscle Savage or beat him in a saber duel? No. So you can't scale his dueling/strength feats to Dooku. It was Savage who ragdolled him when their sabers first connected, and the only reason why it happened "only once" was because Dooku was smart enough to never try to trade blows with him again. Savage is clearly stronger, it's just a fact.

Did Dooku overpower Savage with telekinesis? No. So you can't scale his TK feats to Dooku. It was Savage who completely broke Dooku's force barrier twice, with a force push and a force choke. I'm not saying Dooku CAN'T push around Savage with the force or choke him to death, but certainly can't assume that from their exchange.

That's just putting the events on their head.

With that said, I'm gonna go ahead and skip most of what you showed for Savage. Sorry, I adore Dooku as much as the next guy, but I don't think you've showed he scales to Savage in TK, strength, dueling or pretty much anything besides force lightning, and I think our readers also realize that this is not an earned scaling based on the context of the CW show. If you revisit this and give some more arguments I'll gladly comment on Savage's feats though. No pressure :)

Ventress also possessing multiple highly impressive feats

hmmm? Ventress ain't bad, but I can't recall you showing anything particularly impressive.

such as dominating TCW Movie Anakin Skywalker with the force,

Come on man, that is just not true. Read your own quote again:

As Anakin ducked and used the Force to push him backward, taking him by surprise. He smashed against the wall, dropping his lightsaber.

She jumped him is all. TCW Anakin nearly beat Dooku on his own, so how is this scaling supposed to work? Ventress > TCW Anakin = Dooku > Ventress?

Also, you didn't show our readers anything about TCW Anakin, so even if Ventress was more powerful than him, or even comparable (and I think we all know she is not by the mere fact of jumping him) this scaling still amounts to nothing unless you assume everyone who reads the thread knows details about his feats. This scaling doesn't work, and even if it did, you didn't give the context for it to be measurable.

casually wiping out an army of pirates with the force

That also didn't sound impressive at all... Let's look again:

Hondo had brought only another ten back with him. There was an ample supply of things to hurl at them—pitchers, a crate and the sharp-edged tools it was filled with, mugs, stools, even the pirates themselves

She is dealing with 10 men and she is throwing some craters, tools and pitchers at them. I mean I know I didn't show Gandalf's TK feats yet (coming next post! :) ), but how weak is Gandalf supposed to be for this to be impressive? You can do better bro, don't let me down!

and uprooting a tree. Extremely impressive that's for sure.

The tree is of unknown size. A tree doesn't have to be a 40 meter tall pine for someone to hind behind it. It can be a small fruit tree, not much bigger than a grown human. My old man used to uproot his own fruit trees when I was a kid, I saw with my own eyes a person ripping a tree with it's roots, the tree just has to be small and the root system has to be restricted. It WOULD be a somewhat impressive feat if we had any details on it. As it is, it can range from pretty weak to somewhat impressive, and that's not telling us much.

Dooku vs Obi Wan

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.

Source: Revenge of the Sith Novelisation

The movie novels are canon where they align with what is on screen. Since nothing explicitly contradicts Dooku using a mere "whipcrack," of his power to push Obi Wan, we can assume that this is the case:

I honestly think you misinterpreted this quote. The quote doesn't outright state that it took just a whipcrack of DOOKU's power to ragdoll Obi Wan. It took a whipcrack of THE FORCE, the power that exists throughout the universe, to ragdoll Obi Wan. The quote is talking about the force being this massive, gigantic entity, and just a tiny tiny whipcrack of it is enough to send a person flying. The force is what is impressive in this quote, not Dooku. This is why it says "as":

negligent as a flick of his wrist

If Dooku literally just needs a whipcrack of his OWN power to achieve what he did, why is it negligent AS a flick of his wrist? Why isn't it just A flick of his wrist for him? Because for the giant cosmic energy field that spreads throughout the universe, sending a person flying is just as easy AS flicking a wrist. But for Dooku, it takes effort, because Obi Wan is strong with the force too. It's THAT power - power of the force. Not HIS power - Dooku's:

the slightest whipcrack of that power

Besides, Novels are written in a very poetic fashion so they'd be nice to read. Don't bring an atomic clock and a microscope to what's written in there, you'll end up getting very confusing stuff out of that. Like you yourself mentioned, we should PRIMARELY look at what's happening on screen. And it's so totally not what we see on the screen, so by your own admission, shouldn't be treated as canon. Dooku didn't just FLICK Obi Wan like he was nothing. Look at all he needed to do here:

1. Briefly knock back Anakin. Why? Because he needs to concentrate to overpower Obi Wan. Not a "whipcrack" from him by any means.

No Caption Provided

2. Next, the time span. Dooku picks up Obi Wan with the force, and then throws him away. He doesn't just finger flick him away. Below GIF is 5 seconds long. It took Dooku 5 seconds to ragdoll Obi Wan from the point he picked him up.

No Caption Provided

3. Third, the larger context. Maybe Dooku is just that much stronger than Obi Wan, but maybe he just surprised him? You know, like Ventress did Anakin and all? And there is a way we can confirm this. All we need to do is look for other moments when Dooku tries to use TK against Obi Wan and see if they're any different. And sure enough, they are.

This is not the first time Dooku and Obi Wan fought. Your own GIF proves Dooku can't just one shot Obi Wan with the force casually. In the GIF you presented we clearly see Obi Wan shields himself with the force from Dooku's power and is only slightly moved backwards, he doesn't get overpowered at all.

No Caption Provided

Yeah, I don't think it's a good argument either. And once again, I'm not saying Dooku isn't stronger than Obi Wan. He clearly is. I'm just saying, that he clearly can't overpower Obi Wan with some minuscule gesture, that really is stretching your sources too thin to be a believable claim.

Dooku's force power:

Yessss now we finally get to the good stuff :) Maybe it's just me, but I love direct feats a lot more than vague quotes. Let's look at what our boy Dooku can do!

Count Dooku brings down a chunk of a stone ceiling on Yoda:

Dooku collapses a cave entrance:

Huh, yes, but the gravity helped him with those, didn't it? I mean all Dooku really did is made cracks in the ceiling, the rocks fell by themselves. I'm not saying making cracks in rocks isn't anything to be proud of, but it's hardly going to be a noticeable feat when I present Gandalf's TK showings in my next post. But still, even if Gandalf didn't have ANY telekinesis of his own, you must clearly realize that TK of this magnitude wouldn't even make Gandalf flinch, based on what I've shown him survive in the past.

Dooku crushes the base of a huge pillar with a mere gesture:
Dooku lifts about a dozen heavy obelisk stones:
Dooku overpowers and disarms Asajj Ventress with the force alone:
Dooku floors around a dozen Pyke guards and staggers Anakin and Obi Wan simultaneously:

Same as the above. There are not terrible feat by any means, but it's still tiny in scale when compared to what I've showed Gandalf can survive even in his lesser forms. Denting some metal, lifting a couple tons of rock harmlessly and slowly in the air, overpowering a weaker force user and throwing a bunch of fodder a few feet back. Gandalf the Grey took a telekinetic beating to the face from the likes of Sauron and Saruman, who both made entire structures made of solid rock pulverize into shards on every blast of their TK, and he barely got a nosebleed from those.

In his White form, he really won't even notice the blasts you've presented, even if we disregard Gandalf's intangibility and immunity to conventional brute force altogether, and you still have to show me how do you get through those first if you want to prove Dooku can hurt Gandalf AT ALL.

In the end, even though I don't have my own TK showings out yet, these feats really do not look impressive when compared to what I've shown Gandalf can tank. Dooku will find Gandalf an immovable object with this amount of power. Sorry Dooku! I love you buddy but you can't beat a Wizard in that particular game!

Force Lightning:

That's a lot of feats! Nice... But unfortunately, I'm gonna have to make this one short. What is more powerful, actual air to ground lightning, or force lightning?

OMFGadsodjaodfahsakda!!!!!
OMFGadsodjaodfahsakda!!!!!
Ow ow ow like three more minutes and I REALLY will be dead!
Ow ow ow like three more minutes and I REALLY will be dead!

Yeah... I really think this is not a debatable issue, right?

And for the record - you know I'm joking, right? :) Obviously, force lightning can be deadly too... but we've seen so many characters survive with minor burns from it at this point, it's pretty obvious it's nowhere near comparable to the real deal. That's all I'm saying.

And I already showed this above in the agility section... but here's once again Gandalf CATCHING an actual lightning on his blade to then use it against his opponent.

No Caption Provided

That kind of lightning is MUCH larger, faster, and many times more deadly. And even for Gandalf the Grey, it's not a big deal at all, just another element he can use as his weapon.

I could drag this out and go through your feats one by one and compare them with Gandalf's energy based durability - and if you make a good case for Dooku's lightning being dangerous to Gandalf who can literally eat lightning bolts, I'll gladly do that too. But for now, I can't see any reason why our readers would believe force lightning would be dangerous to Gandalf.

Count Dooku has more raw power as shown from both his scaling, feats and accolades.

Not anymore he doesn't!

Count Dooku's multiple decades of experience in both combat

...are nothing, when compared to Gandalf's, to whom even Yoda is a small child, and won't give him any advantage here, sorry!

Count Dooku's lightning will be extremely hard if not outright impossible for Gandalf to deal with.

Nope.

Count Dooku wins this more often than not.

If by WIN you mean LOSE, then we actually agree :)

That's all folks!

Summary:

- I showed Gandalf is an immortal god and a cosmic level being hidden in a supernatural, human-shaped body in his “White” form. He is completely out of Dooku’s reach when it comes to his sheer nature and innate power.

- I proved Gandalf has a significant advantage over Dooku when it comes to training, combat experience and technical sword skill, considering he has larger and better combat record and a style naturally reminiscent of Djem So, which is Dooku’s known weakness.

- I proved Gandalf is a match for Dooku when it comes to his agility, dexterity, and overall combat mobility, proving he can leap around the battlefield, swiftly accelerate and instantly react to super-fast attacks just like Count Dooku can. With “speed equalized” being our CaV condition, I don’t believe either one holds significant advantage over the other in this area.

- I showed Gandalf scales much higher than Dooku when it comes to his strength, thanks to some of his top calcs and feats going up against massively multi-ton creatures like trolls and a Balrog.

- I proved Gandaf’s sword should have no troubles blocking lightsaber strikes.

- I showed Gandalf’s durability feats ensure he can survive telekinetic attacks far superior to what Dooku has up his sleeve even as Gandalf the Grey, and as the White, he is stated to be basically immune to conventional means of causing harm altogether.

- I proved Gandalf can fight at his 100% for entire days, while Dooku has consistently displayed significant stamina issues. Dooku has no hope of winning even a slightly prolonged fight.

- I provided counters to all of your core arguments in regards to Dooku’s capabilities. Most of your scalings don't work correctly, Gandalf survives a lot more powerful TK even in his lesser forms, Dooku's lightning is meaningless against a wizard who can just absorb and redirect it, and Dooku's experience won't matter against a 24k y.o. diety.

I'm pumped! Now let's see what you've got. And don't you dare go easy on me!
I'm pumped! Now let's see what you've got. And don't you dare go easy on me!
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#45  Edited By hellothere5432

@comicgirl21: Good post. Will have my counter up soon. And I will address lightsaber combat in my second post, but at least imo, the force/magic will play a larger role in this fight than duelling. Will explain this more in-depth

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#46 Darthor  Online

@darthor:

Insane opener. Captured all the parts where Dooku has the definite advantage against Gandalf

Thanks :)

No problem

Although, I know you have TPM Maul and Dooku as equals. And Savage is stated as being above TPM Maul, what is your justification for TPM Maul and Dooku being equal when you have Dooku >>> Savage?

Where is Savage stated to be above TPM Maul? In S3 Dooku stated that TPM Maul was stronger. And Maul has a supremacy quote over Savage as of S4 when he's weaker than he was in TPM.

It was one of those comparison books.

No Caption Provided

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#47 Darthor  Online
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@comicgirl21: So after reading your post(it was a very good post :) I have realised that Canon Count Dooku can't beat Gandalf.. However Legends Dooku definitely has a chance at winning so if you are ok with it, can we change it from Canon to composite Dooku? If not, then that's fine too.

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@darthor:

It was one of those comparison books.

Those magazines aren't really the most reliable. Maul has another quote saying that his TCW S4 self is well above Savage:

"Viewers of Star Wars: The Clone Wars know that Maul's brother Savage Opress is no slouch when it comes to fighting. But compared to Maul, even a killer like Savage takes a back seat. "Savage is fearsome," Taylor points out. "He would tear the arms off a wookiee with his teeth. But Maul is calculating, and his ability makes him a far more formidable foe." Add the fact that the two warriors share a brotherly bond, and you have a one-two punch unrivalled by another other team in the Star Wars galaxy.

Source: Star Wars Insider 134

S4 Maul is also sub-TPM Maul.

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ComicGirl21

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@hellothere5432: Hey there, I'm glad you liked the post :) If you want to talk about changing CaV rules mid-debate we can discuss this. I've sent you a PM, let's talk there. This CaV already has plenty of spam as is.