CAV: ComicStooge vs Lvenger - VOTING NOW OPEN!

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Veshark

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@comicstooge

Sure did. Once again, much respect to the both of you ;)

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dondave

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ComicStooge gets my vote

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MonsterStomp

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#53  Edited By MonsterStomp

So this is what a pro debate looks like? Well first I'd like to thank you guys for teaching me so much, I aspire to improve my debating skills so maybe one day I can be as good as you guys.

With that out of the way, I vote for @comicstooge.

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DarkRaiden

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Lvenger

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Lvenger

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So the current scores are

4 - Lvenger

2 - ComicStooge

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Deranged Midget

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First off, I hate voting for these things because in almost all cases, both guys toss out brilliant discussions and I feel it's unfair that I have to choose one over the other when they both have extremely powerful points. Massive respect to both ComicStooge and Lvenger here!

Reading through, Comic Stooge dishes out some fantastic counter-points and points of his own but I feel like Lvenger did a more consistent job of representing and displaying Tony's diverse capabilities.

Again, kudos to both of you! DOWN WITH THE VOTING!

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jwalser3

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#59  Edited By jwalser3

Going with Lvenger

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Ancient_0f_Days

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I can't choose....

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Lvenger

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I can't choose....

I know, it was a really close debate this time round. ComicStooge made me sweat for every counter point.

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Ancient_0f_Days

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@lvenger: This thread comes down to more than just Jack vs Tony....it's the Iron Army vs a living super city that can rebuild itself ..... Honestly, I can't decide who debated better because you two are like Goku and Vegeta right now (before Vegeta became a punching bag for villains) .... this thread is a damn breath of fresh air compared to most of the threads around here. Not only how close this actually turned out to be, but you two...I ain't even got the words for it. It was an exciting read, really, but I can't even begin to mull it over for who wins the debate...as for the battle, I'm not sure Tony can take out a self sustaining city, not every armor was made to withstand the force of a few million tons of steel and concrete and the ones that can take it can't take it longer than that city can take them. Doors are still an issue for Tony if Jack wants to be rid of a few more powerful armors real quick but I just don't see a permanent way for Tony to win unless he simply unloads everything from each suit and obliterates that entire city, along with Jack in the process....It's possible but he'd probably lose too many suits for the damage to stick, Jack would be in a pretty sh*t condition as well despite his regenerative abilities. I'm just unable to see a decisive end to this...but damn...not much more I can say about this

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Lvenger

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#63  Edited By Lvenger

@lvenger: This thread comes down to more than just Jack vs Tony....it's the Iron Army vs a living super city that can rebuild itself ..... Honestly, I can't decide who debated better because you two are like Goku and Vegeta right now (before Vegeta became a punching bag for villains) .... this thread is a damn breath of fresh air compared to most of the threads around here. Not only how close this actually turned out to be, but you two...I ain't even got the words for it. It was an exciting read, really, but I can't even begin to mull it over for who wins the debate...as for the battle, I'm not sure Tony can take out a self sustaining city, not every armor was made to withstand the force of a few million tons of steel and concrete and the ones that can take it can't take it longer than that city can take them. Doors are still an issue for Tony if Jack wants to be rid of a few more powerful armors real quick but I just don't see a permanent way for Tony to win unless he simply unloads everything from each suit and obliterates that entire city, along with Jack in the process....It's possible but he'd probably lose too many suits for the damage to stick, Jack would be in a pretty sh*t condition as well despite his regenerative abilities. I'm just unable to see a decisive end to this...but damn...not much more I can say about this

Thanks mate, I appreciate the comparison and I'm sure @comicstooge will like it too. Now which one of us is Goku and which of us is Vegeta? You bring up loads of good points mate and truth be told, I admitted Tony's Iron army probably can't beat Jack's City Titan. I used them as a distraction whilst either Tony or a Hulkbuster unit blitzes through the middle to locate Jack and get him away from the City Titan thus winning via BFR or with Tony beating down on Jack. That was my proposed counter for the City Titan.

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Ancient_0f_Days

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@lvenger: Can't Jack move freely within the City Titan though? Intangibly, like he's swimming almost? Maybe he's not as fast as Tony can move and shoot but he could probably operate that colossus from anywhere within it, just not as well as he would in the center. But if Tony can figure out that Jack operates best from the center and somehow take him down before he can open a door right back inside...then he'd have one way of possibly winning...if that doesn't work, Tony would have to either keep trying or blow that thing to hell...problem is....Jack could see that coming and open a mean door that catches the blast, then open it back up the other way around....I mean, this fight is unending to me right now

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Lvenger

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@ancient_0f_days: Hmm the possibilities are more open in this particular debate. You'll have to ask comicstooge about whether Jack can move through the City Titan intangibly.

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DarkRaiden

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@lvenger: Can't Jack move freely within the City Titan though? Intangibly, like he's swimming almost? Maybe he's not as fast as Tony can move and shoot but he could probably operate that colossus from anywhere within it, just not as well as he would in the center. But if Tony can figure out that Jack operates best from the center and somehow take him down before he can open a door right back inside...then he'd have one way of possibly winning...if that doesn't work, Tony would have to either keep trying or blow that thing to hell...problem is....Jack could see that coming and open a mean door that catches the blast, then open it back up the other way around....I mean, this fight is unending to me right now

Hmm....wouldn't you have to disregard that? Since comicstooge didn't bring it up IIRC. I mean if he did, feel free to ignore me, but I just thought we ONLY count stuff we see/that is brought up by the debaters.

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Ancient_0f_Days

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#67  Edited By Ancient_0f_Days

@lvenger said:

@ancient_0f_days: Hmm the possibilities are more open in this particular debate. You'll have to ask comicstooge about whether Jack can move through the City Titan intangibly.

looks pretty intangible....

Hmm....wouldn't you have to disregard that? Since comicstooge didn't bring it up IIRC. I mean if he did, feel free to ignore me, but I just thought we ONLY count stuff we see/that is brought up by the debaters.

Noted

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BuckshotWasHere

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#68 BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

I'm genuinely interested to hear what @buckshot has to say, being the premier Wildstorm expert.

I gotta thank you for calling me out. This was fun to read. It was some trouble reading this and trying to only look at what was said. I had a lot of my own counterarguments I would have made for Jack, and some stuff you didn't even get close to touching on, but you did surprise me a few times when I thought you had missed an easy comment and you got to it in the next message. Judging it only on what was said and not any argument of my own was made even harder because I thought some of your points were good but you didn't carry them with enough confidence to change minds. By that I just mean you could have hit harder with some of your points or followed them to their conclusion more explicitly so others would understand what that means for the fight. But, I would much rather see a debate where two people enjoy it and have a good attitude about things even if it means things get missed, so I think you both did well on that front. In the end I think what really determines my vote on this debate isn't which character I like more, who would actually win, who had an answer for every question, or who seemed most self-assured, but who got me to stop and say "Damn, you got him." There were two parts in this thread (ironically, I don't remember these points that originally stood out to me, and I don't feel like rereading) where a response was given and I just jumped back and put my hand over my mouth because a bomb had been dropped and the game was over. @comicstooge delivered both of those so that's who my vote goes to. That's not to say that was the only good thing about your argument. Even though I think you could have brought it more, you were solid overall, thought outside the box, and clearly had a plan for this fight from beginning to end. You knew your stuff and had your bases covered. It's just that with both of you doing such a good job, those "Gotcha!" responses carried a lot of weight for me. And lvenger, you did good for Iron Man. You gave him a better defense than most people could and you know how to handle yourself in a debate, so this is in no way a knock against you. (Lmao the only thing you actually did wrong is use the word "whilst" half a dozen times, but that's not an actual problem, it just bothers me.)

I do want to add something to the debate. No further arguments or anything, I'll keep my opinions on that out, but a clarification on the issue of Jack's strength since it seemed to be a point of confusion. When it comes to dreamwar, the crossover wasn't an accurate representation of some things, but, the skewing seemed to be always in favor of the DC characters, so if anything it makes Jack's feat more impressive because the DC characters were being amped. Also, despite the DC constructs not matching the originals, comicstooge did bring up how Superman's durability was established within the series (with Majestic), so if nothing else, Hawksmoor was still able to do damage, small as it was, to a character that Majestic didn't one-shot. And with that and the Donna Troy example, Hawksmoor's strength at full power (not depowered and weakened when he could still toss 40some tons) is established as pretty high, and there isn't really anything to suggest those displays are incorrect.

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Pope052

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@comicstooge has my vote, I felt he represented his case better.

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laflux

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Lvenger

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6 - Lvenger

5 - Comicstooge

Really getting close now mate as it should be.

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Lvenger

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@buckshot: I have to admit I was interested too in what you had to say. If I'd been debating you on Jack, I know I'd have been in even more trouble than I was here. Heh I'll try and cut down on the 'whilsts' in future debates from now on :P Thanks for passing your verdict over this and showing where the debate was changed dramatically. I appreciate the comment and vote for CS.

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ComicStooge

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@lvenger said:

6 - Lvenger

5 - Comicstooge

Really getting close now mate as it should be.

I knew this would be close!

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ComicStooge

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#74  Edited By ComicStooge

@lvenger said:

@ancient_0f_days said:

@lvenger: This thread comes down to more than just Jack vs Tony....it's the Iron Army vs a living super city that can rebuild itself ..... Honestly, I can't decide who debated better because you two are like Goku and Vegeta right now (before Vegeta became a punching bag for villains) .... this thread is a damn breath of fresh air compared to most of the threads around here. Not only how close this actually turned out to be, but you two...I ain't even got the words for it. It was an exciting read, really, but I can't even begin to mull it over for who wins the debate...as for the battle, I'm not sure Tony can take out a self sustaining city, not every armor was made to withstand the force of a few million tons of steel and concrete and the ones that can take it can't take it longer than that city can take them. Doors are still an issue for Tony if Jack wants to be rid of a few more powerful armors real quick but I just don't see a permanent way for Tony to win unless he simply unloads everything from each suit and obliterates that entire city, along with Jack in the process....It's possible but he'd probably lose too many suits for the damage to stick, Jack would be in a pretty sh*t condition as well despite his regenerative abilities. I'm just unable to see a decisive end to this...but damn...not much more I can say about this

Thanks mate, I appreciate the comparison and I'm sure @comicstooge will like it too. Now which one of us is Goku and which of us is Vegeta? You bring up loads of good points mate and truth be told, I admitted Tony's Iron army probably can't beat Jack's City Titan. I used them as a distraction whilst either Tony or a Hulkbuster unit blitzes through the middle to locate Jack and get him away from the City Titan thus winning via BFR or with Tony beating down on Jack. That was my proposed counter for the City Titan.

Yeah, I like that comparison. We seem roughly even (though I guess this debate is to figure out who's slightly better, right?)

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Lvenger

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@comicstooge: Indeed though it's staying the same for a while now. Maybe I need to call in some more voters to get a more decisive score?

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ComicStooge

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@lvenger said:

@comicstooge: Indeed though it's staying the same for a while now. Maybe I need to call in some more voters to get a more decisive score?

That would be a good idea.

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Lvenger

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Backflip

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Instinctively I thought that Hawksmoor should win this and ComicStooge presented him admirably. However that being said, Lvenger really went to town I thought and I was overly very impressed with his argument. Purely on the debate, I'm gonna give it to Lvenger.

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ComicStooge

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#79  Edited By ComicStooge

@backflip said:

Instinctively I thought that Hawksmoor should win this and ComicStooge presented him admirably. However that being said, Lvenger really went to town I thought and I was overly very impressed with his argument. Purely on the debate, I'm gonna give it to Lvenger.

Lvenger - 7

CS - 5

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HeraldofGanthet

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#80  Edited By HeraldofGanthet

@comicstooge: @lvenger:

Damn. You guys are awesome. Remind me to include you guys in every thread I create from now on. You guys are that good. I was leaning toward Jack at first, but now I don't know what to think.....

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Lvenger

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@heraldofganthet: Ancient had a similar attitude. I called extra voters in to make the postion of the victor on votes a tad clearer than what it was.

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Lvenger

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Ooh two more people I just thought of that might have the time and expertise to vote

@killemall@tparks

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tparks

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@lvenger: I'll read this as soon as I get a chance and put a vote in, looks like a good match. Thanks for tagging me!

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NoBody134

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CS

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god_spawn

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#85 god_spawn  Moderator  Online

I think Lvenger did slightly better at arguing for his character, but nothing against Comicstooge, who did fantastic himself.

Great job guys.

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Doomnaut

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Lvenger

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ComicStooge

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#89  Edited By GhostRavage

@lvenger Gets my vote. Sorry for lasting this long but it was awfully close IMO. @comicstooge I gotta admit, i didn't know you could pull debates like this :P *thumbs up*... Im looking forward to have an official debate with you, same as @lvenger, but since i had a small debate against him, i may aim for you next time. Good job for you 2.

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ComicStooge

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@lvenger Gets my vote. Sorry for lasting this long but it was awfully close IMO. @comicstooge I gotta admit, i didn't know you could pull debates like this :P *thumbs up*... Im looking forward to have an official debate with you, same as @lvenger, but since i had a small debate against him, i may aim for you next time. Good job for you 2.

Thanks, I think. I generally only put real effort into CAVs.

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GhostRavage

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@comicstooge: No man... Thanks to you, i often don't see debates of this caliber. Also, i knew NOTHING about Jack Hawksmoor... Hell, i didn't even know a power like that existed... and now im particularly interested in him. Kudos.

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ComicStooge

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@comicstooge: No man... Thanks to you, i often don't see debates of this caliber. Also, i knew NOTHING about Jack Hawksmoor... Hell, i didn't even know a power like that existed... and now im particularly interested in him. Kudos.

Anytime.

After I'm finished my debate with Veshark, do you want to do a CAV?

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Lvenger

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#93  Edited By Lvenger

How long would you like to keep voting up for?

It's up to you mate. I admit, even with the scores slightly weighed in my favour, I'd prefer waiting several more days to see if the tides turn. 3 votes can be easily made up to meet the votes. But it depends on how many people vote and all that.

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ComicStooge

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@lvenger said:

@comicstooge said:

How long would you like to keep voting up for?

It's up to you mate. I admit, even with the scores slightly weighed in my favour, I'd prefer waiting several more days to see if the tides turn. 3 votes can be easily made up to meet the votes. But it depends on how many people vote and all that.

Let's wait until Monday ends?

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GhostRavage

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@comicstooge: Im actually looking forward to make a Marvel Now's Daredevil vs "insert character here" or Current Hulk or Thor. However, i may need a few days from now to finish the issues (Just got Daredevil's ones today), if you have any character matchable we can arrange something :P

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ComicStooge

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@comicstooge: Im actually looking forward to make a Marvel Now's Daredevil vs "insert character here" or Current Hulk or Thor. However, i may need a few days from now to finish the issues (Just got Daredevil's ones today), if you have any character matchable we can arrange something :P

Sounds good to me.

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Lvenger

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GhostRavage

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@comicstooge: Deal, i'll contact you via "Challenge a Viner" when im done. Also, can you please link your debate with Veshark?

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