CAV: ComicStooge vs Lvenger - VOTING NOW OPEN!

Jack Hawksmoor - @comicstooge

vs

Iron Man - @lvenger

Rules

• Wildstorm version of Jack is being used by ComicStooge
• Tony is wearing the Extremis armour so only Extremis feats will be used by Lvenger
• Morals are on and this is an in character fight.
• Win by KO, incapacitation, BFR or death

Location - London

• Battle begins inside the Houses of Parliament
• Combatants start on either end of the room

Voting

When it comes to voting

• Please give a reason for voting based on who you thought debated better and represented their side the best, not based on who you think wins in a fight.

VOTING IS NOW OPEN as the debate has finished

@comicstooge I've put the thread up. Are you satisfied with the fight conditions or shall I change them before the debate starts?

Should be interesting.

TIEEEE---BREEEAKKKKERRRR.

Alas. Looking forward to this.

Are they able to move outside the house of Parliament or are they confined to that space?

@comicstooge: Sorry I should have specified that they start out here. They can move the battle into the rest of London once the fight starts.

All right then I'll go first. Whilst I only have a passing familiarity with Jack Hawksmoor, I do know his basic stats. 40 tonner in strength, can control and manipulate cities, is at his most powerful when at the heart of a city etc. All well and good and ComicStooge has assured me Jack can pose more than a challenge to Iron Man. Best of luck to you @comicstooge

Despite Jack's impressive range of abilities, I'll make sure to show why I think Iron Man can win. Let me begin with some basic advantages Iron Man has over Jack. The first is through combat and reaction speed. Shocking that I of all people am starting here. But let's take a look at some of Tony's feats in this department.

Gallery

In scan 1, he was adjusting to attacks in less than a second, then in under two seconds, he was able to speedblitz the foe. And in scans 2 and 3, he dodges a lightning attack and moves as fast as a superhuman foe capable of moving like a blur. Not to mention he's running his suit by thought which, if Tony's intellectual feats are anything to go by is very fast indeed. I've never seen Jack move anywhere near as fast as this. Now for reaction feats

Thus, with speed feats like this, Jack's attacks will have to be fast and frantic to tag Tony, let alone hurt him. Secondly, Tony has a massive ranged advantage and I do mean massive. A taste of what his Repulsar rays can do should be enough to demonstrate this fact

Gallery

In the first scan, his uni beam reaches temperatures of 10,000 Kelvin which, on numerous scientific sources I've checked, is almost twice as hot as the surface of the sun. The surface reaches temperatures of about 5,800 K whereas the core is WAY hotter lol. Still Tony being able to fire blasts twice as hot as the surface of the sun is rather impressive. Has Jack tanked attacks that hot before? In scans 2 to 3, Tony not only shrugs off a tank battalion like it's nothing but he then proceeds to decimate said batallion like they're toys. And this full form repulsar ray is a nice feat that can get rid of any obstacles Jack can throw at him. For instance, if Jack uses the city to surround Tony with objects, one full form repulsar ray is all that's needed to disperse the objects. These ranged offensive weaponry feats should show that Tony is definitely capable of shrugging off whatever Jack can throw at him and then pepper him with said blasts to massively affect the fight's outcome. Couple that with Tony's speed and I already have two sets of clear advantages laid out already. I shall keep some feats and arguments held back for your reply though. Don't want to go all out so soon.

@lvenger said:

All right then I'll go first. Whilst I only have a passing familiarity with Jack Hawksmoor, I do know his basic stats. 40 tonner in strength, can control and manipulate cities, is at his most powerful when at the heart of a city etc. All well and good and ComicStooge has assured me Jack can pose more than a challenge to Iron Man. Best of luck to you @comicstooge

Despite Jack's impressive range of abilities, I'll make sure to show why I think Iron Man can win. Let me begin with some basic advantages Iron Man has over Jack. The first is through combat and reaction speed. Shocking that I of all people am starting here. But let's take a look at some of Tony's feats in this department.

Gallery

In scan 1, he was adjusting to attacks in less than a second, then in under two seconds, he was able to speedblitz the foe. And in scans 2 and 3, he dodges a lightning attack and moves as fast as a superhuman foe capable of moving like a blur. Not to mention he's running his suit by thought which, if Tony's intellectual feats are anything to go by is very fast indeed. I've never seen Jack move anywhere near as fast as this. Now for reaction feats

Well, first off, while Jack doesn't quite have Tony's level of speed, he's quite fast himself, even without interacting with a city.

He can casually chase down a speedster:

Gallery

And he's dodged gunfire:

On top of that, he's quite agile:

And he's kept up with Midnighter:

Gallery

More then once (notice he gets the last hit in?):

Gallery

And physically, he can dent Tony's armor with his fists.

Superman has felt his punches:

And he even continued fighting Superman on the next page:

And he's knocked Donna Troy through a loop (if I'm not mistaken, he straight up one-shoted her):

@lvenger said:

Thus, with speed feats like this, Jack's attacks will have to be fast and frantic to tag Tony, let alone hurt him. Secondly, Tony has a massive ranged advantage and I do mean massive. A taste of what his Repulsar rays can do should be enough to demonstrate this fact

Gallery

In the first scan, his uni beam reaches temperatures of 10,000 Kelvin which, on numerous scientific sources I've checked, is almost twice as hot as the surface of the sun. The surface reaches temperatures of about 5,800 K whereas the core is WAY hotter lol. Still Tony being able to fire blasts twice as hot as the surface of the sun is rather impressive. Has Jack tanked attacks that hot before? In scans 2 to 3, Tony not only shrugs off a tank battalion like it's nothing but he then proceeds to decimate said batallion like they're toys. And this full form repulsar ray is a nice feat that can get rid of any obstacles Jack can throw at him. For instance, if Jack uses the city to surround Tony with objects, one full form repulsar ray is all that's needed to disperse the objects. These ranged offensive weaponry feats should show that Tony is definitely capable of shrugging off whatever Jack can throw at him and then pepper him with said blasts to massively affect the fight's outcome. Couple that with Tony's speed and I already have two sets of clear advantages laid out already. I shall keep some feats and arguments held back for your reply though. Don't want to go all out so soon.

Jack has tanked a nuke before:

Those things can be anywhere from 60-100 million degrees Celsius (my source). The nuclear bomb is apparently hotter then out sun based off this source. Considering he basically brushed off a nuke, I'd say he can take that Uniblast.

Now I'll highlight a massive advantage - versatility.

For one thing, being in the city, he's essentially omnipresent.

This means Iron Man can't sneak up on him or outmaneuver him.

This grants him precognition:

He can attack Tony from anywhere, using anything in the city:

He can drop a building on Tony:

Or attack him from underground, he doesn't need be present to fight.

And he's capable of using lasers himself, firing them from the windows of buildings:

Gallery

Also, while underground, the city heals him:

Gallery

Jack can do various other things, such as amp electrical currents to make them thousands of times more powerful, manipulate gravity to make himself lighter and heavier etc and he can also blow up gas pipes:

Gallery

Tony's flight advantage it nullified by the fact Jack can summon Doors to send him wherever he wants, including mid-air.

Basically, Tony has a bunch of lasers and missiles, meanwhile, Jack has an entire city to use against Tony. His arsenal is much greater.

Alright, your turn @lvenger.

@comicstooge said:

Well, first off, while Jack doesn't quite have Tony's level of speed, he's quite fast himself, even without interacting with a city.

He can casually chase down a speedster:

Gallery

And he's dodged gunfire:

On top of that, he's quite agile:

And he's kept up with Midnighter:

Gallery

More then once (notice he gets the last hit in?):

Gallery

Impressive but nothing too special. Given that Iron Man has reacted to a lightning fast attack before, blitzed a foe in seconds and tagged superhuman speedsters like Spider-Man (who's often put up against Midnighter in fights on here due to their similar physical abilities) and the Human Torch, I think it's not unreasonable to suggest that Jack won't be out of Tony's reach to tag and when Jack does get tagged, it'll hurt a lot.

@comicstooge said:And physically, he can dent Tony's armor with his fists.

Superman has felt his punches:

And he even continued fighting Superman on the next page:

And he's knocked Donna Troy through a loop (if I'm not mistaken, he straight up one-shoted her):

As I was telling you in our PM, those scans come from a crossover that was unreliably written as most crossovers are when comparing the feats and abilities of characters from different universes. Batman gave Zealot a much better fight than he should have been able to and he was compared to a Khereubian warlord. I'm not wrong in saying there was a degree amount of PIS there. As for him socking Donna, you told me he was a 40 tonner and Donna is supposed to be near class 100 in strength which Iron Man also is in strength too. A 40 tonner socking a 100 tonner doesn't make much sense to me. In any case, Tony is definitely stronger than him. And let me put it this way. Superman would feel Tony's punches way more than he would Jack's punches.

@comicstooge said:

Jack has tanked a nuke before:

Those things can be anywhere from 60-100 million degrees Celsius (my source). The nuclear bomb is apparently hotter then out sun based off this source. Considering he basically brushed off a nuke, I'd say he can take that Uniblast.

Well look who else has tanked a nuke too

Guess I have your number in that department. Also how long was Jack in the heart of the nuclear explosion for. Tony's quite clearly feeling the brunt of it here whereas Jack is escaping from it via a door. And whilst we're on durability, here's Tony tanking a beatdown from an angry Thor after he hears about Tony's actions in Civil War and making a clone of Thor.

Gallery

And it was an Odinforce Thor too. He probably wasn't using it but it's important to note. I also have scans of him tanking shots from Sentry and She Hulk but they're a tad long to post. Needless to say, I have plenty of proof that Tony has another edge in the durability department too. Can Jack tank multiple of these level of blasts that Tony can dish out?

@comicstooge said:

Now I'll highlight a massive advantage - versatility.

For one thing, being in the city, he's essentially omnipresent.

This means Iron Man can't sneak up on him or outmaneuver him.

This grants him precognition:

Precog, OK I guess I should have seen that coming given he's in tune with the city all the time. Well that's certainly an advantage. No matter though too much. Tony's Extremis armour can link him into external communication systems such as satellites, phones and computers. Not to mention the armour amps Tony's response time and thinking making the already genius Tony even more of a fast thinker on his feet. So you're not the only one with a character to possess limited precog or knowledge of what's going to happen as Tony can link into what's going on around him technologically and let's face it, a city is a hub of technology making Tony's connection to it as legitimate as Jack's literal connection to the city.

@comicstooge said:

He can drop a building on Tony:

Or attack him from underground, he doesn't need be present to fight.

And he's capable of using lasers himself, firing them from the windows of buildings:

Gallery

Ah now this I was expecting. Let me deal you in on the ways Tony can deal with this environmental assault. Number one, straight up blasting everything. His repulsar rays can decimate military battalions like they're toys and his unibeam can reach 10,000K. I think that's enough to take apart Jack's control over the city and whatever he uses. If not, then you remember the full form repulsar rays?

Yeah these bad boys. These blasts can hit anyone within a 360 degree radius. If Jack tries city hands with Tony, this attack comes massively into play to counter that attack's danger. Secondly, as for the buildings, Tony's fast enough to fly up into the sky out of their attack range or durable enough to tank a building falling on him. Anyone who can go toe to toe with Marvel's powerhouses and tank a nuke isn't going to be affected by a building. Thirdly, Iron Man has a massive defensive advantage too on top of his impressive durability. He can raise shields.

Last point on Iron Man's shields. Though I can't find the scan for it, during an Illuminati story where they go to the Skrulls to stop them attacking Earth, Iron Man with 1% power still manages to shield himself and the Illuminati from a nuke. If that's not a telling sign of how good the shields are, I don't know what is. I found this post from Morpheus by the way so it's safe to say he was a guy who knew what he was talking about on here.

Finally, if Jack's using a lot of metal in the buildings or city to attack him, Tony can just neutralise these attacks with a magnetic polar field. Case in point

Of course, Jack can just throw trees and non metallic objects at Tony but these don't have the effect of a metallic attack no? Also how is he attacking underground in the last scan? Just looks like he isn't doing anything.

@comicstooge said:

Also, while underground, the city heals him:

Gallery

Jack can do various other things, such as amp electrical currents to make them thousands of times more powerful, manipulate gravity to make himself lighter and heavier etc and he can also blow up gas pipes:

Gallery

Tony's flight advantage it nullified by the fact Jack can summon Doors to send him wherever he wants, including mid-air.

Basically, Tony has a bunch of lasers and missiles, meanwhile, Jack has an entire city to use against Tony. His arsenal is much greater.

Alright, your turn @lvenger.

Well again Iron Man has a healing factor to match that of Jack's

Handbook description of Iron Man's abilities. And here he feels confident enough to challenge Wolverine to a healing factor contest. This is just a statement but the enhancements Extremis has given him clearly give Tony the bravado to make this call.

None of these other environmental abilities will do Tony any harm, that I can say for certain. And all teleporting into the air will do is leave Jack open to a repulsar blast from Tony.

Thus I think it's easy to see that Tony's "bunch of lasers and missiles" is more than enough to dispel most of what Jack can throw at him. His full form repulsar ray gets rid of Jack's close combat manipulations, his magnetic polar field can control metallic objects Jack can throw at him and Tony's durability/shields combo will shrug off what Jack has to offer. On top of this, Iron Man beats Jack in speed, strength and ranged offensive attacks with a clear advantage of being able to deal with Jack up close and far away.

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge said:And physically, he can dent Tony's armor with his fists.

Superman has felt his punches:

And he even continued fighting Superman on the next page:

And he's knocked Donna Troy through a loop (if I'm not mistaken, he straight up one-shoted her):

As I was telling you in our PM, those scans come from a crossover that was unreliably written as most crossovers are when comparing the feats and abilities of characters from different universes. Batman gave Zealot a much better fight than he should have been able to and he was compared to a Khereubian warlord. I'm not wrong in saying there was a degree amount of PIS there. As for him socking Donna, you told me he was a 40 tonner and Donna is supposed to be near class 100 in strength which Iron Man also is in strength too. A 40 tonner socking a 100 tonner doesn't make much sense to me. In any case, Tony is definitely stronger than him. And let me put it this way. Superman would feel Tony's punches way more than he would Jack's punches.

In all fairness, by the time the crossover was brought out, Wildstorm was apart of the DC Multiverse, so I'd say the crossover was a lot more reliable then say, any crossover DC and Marvel have done.

In regards to the whole 'Batman vs Zealot' thing, I'd say that was just a bit of fan service, considering Bats ended up with his throat slit, so they had to make sure he died while saving some face.

Anyway, the 40 ton lifting and throwing scan for Jack was done when his connection to cities was lost and he wasn't exactly in a big sprawling urban environment to begin with:

However, it's likely his only strength feat we can quantify, so I listed him as a 40 tonner, even though he's likely stronger.

Regardless, lifting feats aren't really reflective of striking feats. Midnighter, who's physically similar to Jack, has one-shoted guys who could fight Apollo, he's beaten Maul (who's in Majestic's class) and he's owned Winter (despite the latter being able to survive in the sun for years). Just because a character can only lift a certain amount (in Jack's case his minimum is 40 tons) doesn't mean they aren't capable of hitting harder.

If you'd like a purely Wildstorm feat, here, he punches through creatures who were durable enough to contain acid that could burn through the Carrier:

And he can alter his density, effectively amping his striking power, so this could be another explanation for his striking power:

To be fair, Spiderman has dodged Stark before. Tony isn't bloodlusted here, he's not going to go full out in speed or destructive ability the moment the fight starts:

Those scans you posted of Tony effortlessly dodging Parker's attacks were when Tony had been reading Spidey like an open book for weeks. Tony copied Spiderman's Spider-sense and it basically gave away Parker's every move:

A morals on Tony Stark is someone Jack can avoid using his precognition and agility, long enough for Jack to meld into the city and be able to attack from anywhere.

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge said:

Well, first off, while Jack doesn't quite have Tony's level of speed, he's quite fast himself, even without interacting with a city.

He can casually chase down a speedster:

Gallery

And he's dodged gunfire:

On top of that, he's quite agile:

And he's kept up with Midnighter:

Gallery

More then once (notice he gets the last hit in?):

Gallery

Impressive but nothing too special. Given that Iron Man has reacted to a lightning fast attack before, blitzed a foe in seconds and tagged superhuman speedsters like Spider-Man (who's often put up against Midnighter in fights on here due to their similar physical abilities) and the Human Torch, I think it's not unreasonable to suggest that Jack won't be out of Tony's reach to tag and when Jack does get tagged, it'll hurt a lot.

@comicstooge said:And physically, he can dent Tony's armor with his fists.

Superman has felt his punches:

And he even continued fighting Superman on the next page:

And he's knocked Donna Troy through a loop (if I'm not mistaken, he straight up one-shoted her):

As I was telling you in our PM, those scans come from a crossover that was unreliably written as most crossovers are when comparing the feats and abilities of characters from different universes. Batman gave Zealot a much better fight than he should have been able to and he was compared to a Khereubian warlord. I'm not wrong in saying there was a degree amount of PIS there. As for him socking Donna, you told me he was a 40 tonner and Donna is supposed to be near class 100 in strength which Iron Man also is in strength too. A 40 tonner socking a 100 tonner doesn't make much sense to me. In any case, Tony is definitely stronger than him. And let me put it this way. Superman would feel Tony's punches way more than he would Jack's punches.

@comicstooge said:

Jack has tanked a nuke before:

Those things can be anywhere from 60-100 million degrees Celsius (my source). The nuclear bomb is apparently hotter then out sun based off this source. Considering he basically brushed off a nuke, I'd say he can take that Uniblast.

Well look who else has tanked a nuke too

Guess I have your number in that department. Also how long was Jack in the heart of the nuclear explosion for. Tony's quite clearly feeling the brunt of it here whereas Jack is escaping from it via a door. And whilst we're on durability, here's Tony tanking a beatdown from an angry Thor after he hears about Tony's actions in Civil War and making a clone of Thor.

Gallery

And it was an Odinforce Thor too. He probably wasn't using it but it's important to note. I also have scans of him tanking shots from Sentry and She Hulk but they're a tad long to post. Needless to say, I have plenty of proof that Tony has another edge in the durability department too. Can Jack tank multiple of these level of blasts that Tony can dish out?

True, Tony is superior to Jack in terms of durability, but that isn't to say Jack can't hurt him.

He's also plowed off a building through multiple armored Spider-tanks with no damage whatsoever, not as impressive, but it's a much clearer feat:

Anyway, I'll respond in further detail to this point on durability as well as the other points to made, but I'm not able to right now.

@comicstooge said:

To be fair, Spiderman has dodged Stark before. Tony isn't bloodlusted here, he's not going to go full out in speed or destructive ability the moment the fight starts:

Those scans you posted of Tony effortlessly dodging Parker's attacks were when Tony had been reading Spidey like an open book for weeks. Tony copied Spiderman's Spider-sense and it basically gave away Parker's every move:

A morals on Tony Stark is someone Jack can avoid using his precognition and agility, long enough for Jack to meld into the city and be able to attack from anywhere.

My point was not that Jack is going to be someone Stark can effortlessly tag. My point was that given that Tony has tagged faster opponents and dodged attacks from faster opponents than Jack, he's not going to be hard pressed in tagging Jack. His precognition will only get him so far. Once he makes a move, Tony can counter far more quickly than Jack can react. As for your scans, your problems with using them are thus. With the black costume one, that involved a Peter who was stronger and had superior stats than he did before due to dying and reawakening from the Other and all that. Tony tagging him in the scan I provided adds credence to my point more. Secondly, I am aware Tony had been studying Peter and had developed something to neutralise his Spider sense but the crucial part of my argument is that he dodged Peter's attacks BEFORE resorting to the distorting spider sense trick you show in your other scan. You defeat your own point by showing exactly when Peter was fooled by Tony's tech. Before that, in my scan, he dodged Spidey's hits fairly easily.

@comicstooge said:

In all fairness, by the time the crossover was brought out, Wildstorm was apart of the DC Multiverse, so I'd say the crossover was a lot more reliable then say, any crossover DC and Marvel have done.

In regards to the whole 'Batman vs Zealot' thing, I'd say that was just a bit of fan service, considering Bats ended up with his throat slit, so they had to make sure he died while saving some face.

Anyway, the 40 ton lifting and throwing scan for Jack was done when his connection to cities was lost and he wasn't exactly in a big sprawling urban environment to begin with:

However, it's likely his only strength feat we can quantify, so I listed him as a 40 tonner, even though he's likely stronger.

Regardless, lifting feats aren't really reflective of striking feats. Midnighter, who's physically similar to Jack, has one-shoted guys who could fight Apollo, he's beaten Maul (who's in Majestic's class) and he's owned Winter (despite the latter being able to survive in the sun for years). Just because a character can only lift a certain amount (in Jack's case his minimum is 40 tons) doesn't mean they aren't capable of hitting harder.

If you'd like a purely Wildstorm feat, here, he punches through creatures who were durable enough to contain acid that could burn through the Carrier:

And he can alter his density, effectively amping his striking power, so this could be another explanation for his striking power:

Don't be hasty in grouping DC and Wildstorm so quickly. It doesn't change the statement that a 40 tonner managing to make a million tonner with planet busting durability feel his punch any less sketchy of an instance. Nor does it change the unreliability of some of the events in that crossover. In any case, it's good to see some more reliable instances of Jack's hitting power and yes I am very much aware of the difference between lifting and striking power so you don't need to make that point. In terms of what Midnighter can do, his feats have been in direct relation to his battle computer predicting almost every outcome of the fight and working his way backwards to find an outcome he prefers best. The guy knows exactly which punch will be thrown so I think you'll agree that explains why he can one shot top tier guys like he can. Jack does not have that benefit, at least not to the same degree as Midnighter. Density increments are all well and good but against a guy who tanked a nuke with 1% of his shields, I think Jack won't be able to increase his density enough to come close to that output (I found the scan btw on an Iron Man respect thread)

@comicstooge said:

True, Tony is superior to Jack in terms of durability, but that isn't to say Jack can't hurt him.

He's also plowed off a building through multiple armored Spider-tanks with no damage whatsoever, not as impressive, but it's a much clearer feat:

Anyway, I'll respond in further detail to this point on durability as well as the other points to made, but I'm not able to right now.

Fair enough, take your time with the finished response. I barely managed to make this reply as it is today due to being busier tonight than I thought. I'll make my response to your next point tomorrow after I've finished lectures and am back home.

@lvenger to continue the point of durability, Jack's been hit with a wrecking ball when his powers were cut off:

Gallery

So overall, despite not too many showings of durability, he can tank a nuke, jump off a building through armored tanks and tank hits by a wrecking ball despite being weaker then normal. He can increase his density to make himself more durable.

Luckily though, Hawksmoor doesn't need to tank too many of Tony's attacks. His speed, precognition and phasing through walls and buildings mean he can avoid Tony and if he gets cornered, Doors will help out to make sure he stay out of Tony's way.

Especially because Tony's morals suggest that he won't want be willing to go all out to begin with, yet with Jack, this isn't the case.

More or less, if he's being attacked he'll more or less be attempting to outright kill his opponent. Unlike Tony, he's willing to accept civilian casualties as a necessary evil. While he will attempt to limit damage done to areas, he (and the rest of the Authority) recognize that it's more important to take down their enemies permanently and as fast as possible.

Even against a crazy, murderous psychopath like Mallen, Tony resisted killing him until he made it absolutely necessary.

Looser morals is one of Jack's advantages over Tony - Jack won't hold back from the get-go, it may take Tony time to really let loose and by that time it may be too late.

@comicstooge: A very interesting response. I'm at university at the moment so suffice to say I don't have access to all my scans lol. I'll be sure to reply to this when I return home.

Cities actually like Jack (the guy Jack was talking to mentioned the a city was actually fighting his attempts to interact with it) and are prone to take orders from him:

And Jack can interface with the technology of Britain (and all other cities):

Gallery

He could simply ask the city to be unresponsive to Iron Man, substantially lowering his connection to the city.

@lvenger said:

Ah now this I was expecting. Let me deal you in on the ways Tony can deal with this environmental assault. Number one, straight up blasting everything. His repulsar rays can decimate military battalions like they're toys and his unibeam can reach 10,000K. I think that's enough to take apart Jack's control over the city and whatever he uses. If not, then you remember the full form repulsar rays?

Yeah these bad boys. These blasts can hit anyone within a 360 degree radius. If Jack tries city hands with Tony, this attack comes massively into play to counter that attack's danger. Secondly, as for the buildings, Tony's fast enough to fly up into the sky out of their attack range or durable enough to tank a building falling on him. Anyone who can go toe to toe with Marvel's powerhouses and tank a nuke isn't going to be affected by a building. Thirdly, Iron Man has a massive defensive advantage too on top of his impressive durability. He can raise shields.

Jack can actually make the constructs of the city denser:

And he can lift entire islands:

And he's even been shown to hurl sections of cities at high speeds:

That's right, he's launched the Eiffel tower at a space station, using it like a spear., hitting the space station is a VERY short time.

If Jack were to launch a city block at Tony, with it's density increased and with speeds rivaling a space shuttle, it would certainly be an issue for Tony to deal with.

In regards to Jack being trapped in one of Tony's shields, he can simply open a Door in the bubble to escape.

If Tony attempts to use his shield while grounded, Jack can come up from the ground and attack, like so:

Is Tony capable of attacking despite having his shields up? If not, that would only create a stalemate. While it would give Tony time to think, it would also give Jack time to cook something up too.

Jack can sense magnetic fields:

And he's easily capable of just using some density altered, high speed concrete debris and hurling it at Tony.

Basically, he'll still be able to do this:

I think it's also worth noting Tony does have to be conscious of his power supply, while Jack can actually rebuild cities to replenish his arsenal:

He could simply pressure Tony to use large amounts of power defending from his various attacks, wearing Tony out to the point he exhausts his power supply.

Jack doesn't tire in cities and only sleeps every few months, I'd say he can outlast Iron Man.

@comicstooge said:

Especially because Tony's morals suggest that he won't want be willing to go all out to begin with, yet with Jack, this isn't the case.

More or less, if he's being attacked he'll more or less be attempting to outright kill his opponent. Unlike Tony, he's willing to accept civilian casualties as a necessary evil. While he will attempt to limit damage done to areas, he (and the rest of the Authority) recognize that it's more important to take down their enemies permanently and as fast as possible.

Even against a crazy, murderous psychopath like Mallen, Tony resisted killing him until he made it absolutely necessary.

Looser morals is one of Jack's advantages over Tony - Jack won't hold back from the get-go, it may take Tony time to really let loose and by that time it may be too late.

Even though I can point out that Tony is a pragmatist about these matters and at the end of the day is willing to kill if the chips are fully down, I can't deny that your point is correct. Tony won't be out to kill Jack or fully open his arsenal straight away. He kills as a last resort in character that much is clear. But I can say that as the fight progresses, Tony will open up his full arsenal and that will be capable of overwhelming Jack what with his superior ranged offensive weaponry as I've outlined in the scans posted and his superiority in close quarters due to better striking power and speed. I realise I should prove he has better striking power btw

So here's my proof of that. It is with older armour but this first one shows how hard he has hit in the past

And as for stopping Jack without killing him, I think that can be done due to the advantages I've outlined and one other scan I've found

I realise this is out of the blue somewhat but Tony's Extremis armour did have these nifty Adamantium needles that KOed She Hulk, someone who's around about Jack's power class and is also a superhuman. Tony isn't likely to pull this card out but if he does, I'm hard pressed to see Jack having a counter for it

@comicstooge said:

@lvenger said:

Precog, OK I guess I should have seen that coming given he's in tune with the city all the time. Well that's certainly an advantage. No matter though too much. Tony's Extremis armour can link him into external communication systems such as satellites, phones and computers. Not to mention the armour amps Tony's response time and thinking making the already genius Tony even more of a fast thinker on his feet. So you're not the only one with a character to possess limited precog or knowledge of what's going to happen as Tony can link into what's going on around him technologically and let's face it, a city is a hub of technology making Tony's connection to it as legitimate as Jack's literal connection to the city.

Cities actually like Jack (the guy Jack was talking to mentioned the a city was actually fighting his attempts to interact with it) and are prone to take orders from him:

And Jack can interface with the technology of Britain (and all other cities):

Gallery

He could simply ask the city to be unresponsive to Iron Man, substantially lowering his connection to the city.

Well played my friend, this is something I can't conceivably counter given Jack's showings. But I do have a question for you. Will the cities know Tony's using their communications? And if so how will they know when Tony's hacking into their communications to find out where Jack is?

@comicstooge said:

Jack can actually make the constructs of the city denser:

And he can lift entire islands:

And he's even been shown to hurl sections of cities at high speeds:

That's right, he's launched the Eiffel tower at a space station, using it like a spear., hitting the space station is a VERY short time.

If Jack were to launch a city block at Tony, with it's density increased and with speeds rivaling a space shuttle, it would certainly be an issue for Tony to deal with.

You've provided some nice feats for Jack. But in character, is he really going to hurl a large chunk of London at Iron Man just to beat him? You said he;s willing to let construction damage happen but surely he's not going to throw an entire island just to beat Iron Man? It seems a tad unlikely from my POV that Jack will pull that move. Secondly, with the density thing, unless Jack can increase the density of his attacks to the level of Sentry or Thor, which I doubt he can, then the increased density city attacks can still be shrugged off by Iron Man's durability not to mention his shields. And as for him hurling parts of the city at Tony, this can be dealt with in two ways

Way 1. This will be a mix of scans but what I'm putting forward as proof is Tony's ability to quickfire his repulsar blasts via his efficient repulsar systems. If you can pick out the multifiring scans I'm posting, that should show that Tony can blast Jack's attacks quickly out of mid air.

And even if Tony can't blast Jack's shrapnel throwing tactic like you showed with the Eiffel Tower, he still has a very good chance of dodging it. Case in point, here's two scans which show the speed Iron Man can travel at as well as him running rings around multiple fighter plans shooting at him. The best thing is that the average fighter pilot is trained to have sharp eyes and excellent reactions when controlling a plane to shoot their target yet this guy can't get a bead on Tony. I'm fairly certain that Tony has the capability to dodge Jack's faster attacks

I'll make a second post to respond to your last post.

@comicstooge said:

In regards to Jack being trapped in one of Tony's shields, he can simply open a Door in the bubble to escape.

If Tony attempts to use his shield while grounded, Jack can come up from the ground and attack, like so:

Is Tony capable of attacking despite having his shields up? If not, that would only create a stalemate. While it would give Tony time to think, it would also give Jack time to cook something up too.

Impressive trick and I now see what you mean by Jack attacking from underground. But this wouldn't cut against Tony's superior durability and his even greater shield strength. As for your other point, I'm not an Iron Man expert as you can probably tell but I think it depends on how much power Tony puts into his shields. But realistically, I don't think he can. This particular part of your argument doesn't bypass Tony's superior shield strength and even if Jack cooks something up, Tony can repel it with the strategies I've posted previously. The arsenal Tony does have has so far managed to counter a lot of what you've come up with for Jack with the exception of him blocking communications.

@comicstooge said:

Jack can sense magnetic fields:

And he's easily capable of just using some density altered, high speed concrete debris and hurling it at Tony.

Basically, he'll still be able to do this:

I think it's also worth noting Tony does have to be conscious of his power supply, while Jack can actually rebuild cities to replenish his arsenal:

He could simply pressure Tony to use large amounts of power defending from his various attacks, wearing Tony out to the point he exhausts his power supply.

Jack doesn't tire in cities and only sleeps every few months, I'd say he can outlast Iron Man.

This particular suggestion you've made doesn't explain whether Jack can wrest control of the magnetic objects Tony can render inert with his magnetic polar field. If Tony turns that on, Jack hasn't shown the ability to wrest control of magnetic objects from other people controlling them so it's unclear that Jack will be pulling any tricks with magnetic fields once Tony whips out the polar field. And it's nice to know Jack can fix the damage he's done to the city once Iron Man beats him :P Your other strategy at the end would be a valid one if this were a drawn out, prepared battle. But this is a random encounter and Iron Man has more than enough firepower, superiority in physical stats and counters to most of Jack's strategies to bring him down.

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge said:

To be fair, Spiderman has dodged Stark before. Tony isn't bloodlusted here, he's not going to go full out in speed or destructive ability the moment the fight starts:

Those scans you posted of Tony effortlessly dodging Parker's attacks were when Tony had been reading Spidey like an open book for weeks. Tony copied Spiderman's Spider-sense and it basically gave away Parker's every move:

A morals on Tony Stark is someone Jack can avoid using his precognition and agility, long enough for Jack to meld into the city and be able to attack from anywhere.

My point was not that Jack is going to be someone Stark can effortlessly tag. My point was that given that Tony has tagged faster opponents and dodged attacks from faster opponents than Jack, he's not going to be hard pressed in tagging Jack. His precognition will only get him so far. Once he makes a move, Tony can counter far more quickly than Jack can react. As for your scans, your problems with using them are thus. With the black costume one, that involved a Peter who was stronger and had superior stats than he did before due to dying and reawakening from the Other and all that. Tony tagging him in the scan I provided adds credence to my point more. Secondly, I am aware Tony had been studying Peter and had developed something to neutralise his Spider sense but the crucial part of my argument is that he dodged Peter's attacks BEFORE resorting to the distorting spider sense trick you show in your other scan. You defeat your own point by showing exactly when Peter was fooled by Tony's tech. Before that, in my scan, he dodged Spidey's hits fairly easily.

Tony actually mentions "not only can I crate my own spider sense". To me this suggested that he was actually using Spider-sense against Peter, but it's not exactly clear.

Still Jack's smart enough to realize Tony is faster then him and that he should fight from a distance. I think it's obvious that durability wise he won't go down easy (and neither will Tony), but Jack is capable of fighting while not being around for Tony's attacks.

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge said:

@lvenger said:

Precog, OK I guess I should have seen that coming given he's in tune with the city all the time. Well that's certainly an advantage. No matter though too much. Tony's Extremis armour can link him into external communication systems such as satellites, phones and computers. Not to mention the armour amps Tony's response time and thinking making the already genius Tony even more of a fast thinker on his feet. So you're not the only one with a character to possess limited precog or knowledge of what's going to happen as Tony can link into what's going on around him technologically and let's face it, a city is a hub of technology making Tony's connection to it as legitimate as Jack's literal connection to the city.

Cities actually like Jack (the guy Jack was talking to mentioned the a city was actually fighting his attempts to interact with it) and are prone to take orders from him:

And Jack can interface with the technology of Britain (and all other cities):

Gallery

He could simply ask the city to be unresponsive to Iron Man, substantially lowering his connection to the city.

Well played my friend, this is something I can't conceivably counter given Jack's showings. But I do have a question for you. Will the cities know Tony's using their communications? And if so how will they know when Tony's hacking into their communications to find out where Jack is?

Well played yourself, dude. I have to bring my A-game against every one of your points to even have a shot at countering them adequately.

In regards to cities being aware of Tony's hacking - I'd say so. They have a certain degree of sentience and Jack can literally intercept all communications in and out of the city, so if they don't know, he can simply tell them.

Or hell, if Jack wants to get clever, he can pull the same trick Tony did on Spiderman and feed his precognition the wrong info.

@lvenger said:

And as for stopping Jack without killing him, I think that can be done due to the advantages I've outlined and one other scan I've found

I realise this is out of the blue somewhat but Tony's Extremis armour did have these nifty Adamantium needles that KOed She Hulk, someone who's around about Jack's power class and is also a superhuman. Tony isn't likely to pull this card out but if he does, I'm hard pressed to see Jack having a counter for it

Jack doesn't possess any human internal organs, as a child he was abducted by people from the future (from the 70th century, I believe) replaced them all with technological enhancements. Can Tony's nanites effect inorganic organs the same way they do organic organs?

His origin is detailed here:

In any case, if the nanites really do become a problem, he can lock his nervous system in with the city of London itself. Tony would have to literally wipe London off the map for the nanites to work.

@lvenger said:

I realise I should prove he has better striking power btw

So here's my proof of that. It is with older armour but this first one shows how hard he has hit in the past

And as for stopping Jack without killing him, I think that can be done due to the advantages I've outlined and one other scan I've found

I know we've gone back and forth with Jack's Superman/Donna Troy striking feats for a while, but I still have more to say on that.

Well, firstly, remember how your main problem with Jack hurting the likes of Donna and Clark was that he was only capable of lifting 40 tons?

Well, with the 40 tons feat, Jack was actually cut off from communicating with cities, not only this, but he was outside of a city to begin with.

Being outside of cities severely handicaps Jack's abilities. Henry Bendix (former leader of Stormwatch turned villain) used this against him:

So, Jack's 40 ton feat is similar to feats done by Superman when effected by red sunlight, kryptonite or the like, he's not even remotely close to full capacity.

In regards to the point about the whole thing being a crossover, the DC heroes were constructs of a powerful reality warper who created made with the expressed purpose to take out the Wildstorm heroes. They seem to be roughly at their regular levels of power and use similar tactics/weapons etc to the people the reality warper based them off.

Still, Dreamwar Superman could take a punch to the face from Mr Majestic without being KO'd, so he's clearly still quite tough:

So overall, both are hard hitters. Tony way have more striking feats to his name, but Jack's feats aren't too bad himself.

He's not really much of an upfront and direct fighter anyway, but he can hang with Tony if it really comes down to it.

I'll respond t your other points soon.

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge said:

In regards to Jack being trapped in one of Tony's shields, he can simply open a Door in the bubble to escape.

If Tony attempts to use his shield while grounded, Jack can come up from the ground and attack, like so:

Is Tony capable of attacking despite having his shields up? If not, that would only create a stalemate. While it would give Tony time to think, it would also give Jack time to cook something up too.

Impressive trick and I now see what you mean by Jack attacking from underground. But this wouldn't cut against Tony's superior durability and his even greater shield strength. As for your other point, I'm not an Iron Man expert as you can probably tell but I think it depends on how much power Tony puts into his shields. But realistically, I don't think he can. This particular part of your argument doesn't bypass Tony's superior shield strength and even if Jack cooks something up, Tony can repel it with the strategies I've posted previously. The arsenal Tony does have has so far managed to counter a lot of what you've come up with for Jack with the exception of him blocking communications.

I have one more trick to pull in regards to Jack getting through his shields, however, I'll save these for my last resorts.

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge said:

Jack can actually make the constructs of the city denser:

And he can lift entire islands:

And he's even been shown to hurl sections of cities at high speeds:

That's right, he's launched the Eiffel tower at a space station, using it like a spear., hitting the space station is a VERY short time.

If Jack were to launch a city block at Tony, with it's density increased and with speeds rivaling a space shuttle, it would certainly be an issue for Tony to deal with.

You've provided some nice feats for Jack. But in character, is he really going to hurl a large chunk of London at Iron Man just to beat him? You said he;s willing to let construction damage happen but surely he's not going to throw an entire island just to beat Iron Man? It seems a tad unlikely from my POV that Jack will pull that move. Secondly, with the density thing, unless Jack can increase the density of his attacks to the level of Sentry or Thor, which I doubt he can, then the increased density city attacks can still be shrugged off by Iron Man's durability not to mention his shields. And as for him hurling parts of the city at Tony, this can be dealt with in two ways

Well, Jack was shown using these strategies easily enough against his various enemies, was he not? During Dreamwar, Jack and his Wildstorm comrades didn't have too much issue killing the DC heroes (even if they were constructs of a reality warper - something they didn't know) because the DC heroes were attacking them. I mean, by that same coin, would Tony really use a blast twice as hot as the sun just to take out Hawksmoor?

Realistically, Jack is far more likely to throw a city block at Tony then Tony is to totally nuke London in an attempt to get to Jack.

And in terms of Tony outracing Jack's large projectiles, sending the Eiffel tower into space in what was obviously a very short time, rivaling any spacecraft launch and some of these shuttles can reach up to Mach 26 or so (source). While I'm not saying the Eiffel tower was this fast, it would have to reach similar speeds.

All in all, a giant piece of metal and concrete (with it's density increased to make it even heavier) when hurled at speeds faster then the speed of sound would be hard for even the likes of Tony to blast through without using a lot of power. And can Tony instantly get up to speeds such as Mach 9 or does he need to accelerate first? If not, he may have more trouble then you thought avoiding Jack's larger projectiles.

Jack was still capable of fighting and defeating that giant robot from before, despite the fact the latter was utilizing a magnetic field:

Gallery

Anyway, have Tony's magnetic powers been used on something bigger then a bunch of small objects? Jack can throw a whole cities worth of metal at Tony, are Tony's magnets really powerful enough to stop all of it?

And anyway, there's always the option of using hyper-dense concrete and such. Jack is capable of sensing Tony's use of magnets and can act accordingly.

Anyway, in regards to healing factor, while it all seems impressive and Tony can definitely talk a big game, Jack's healing factor healed his spine completely after he was diagnosed a paraplegic, does Tony have any healing feats that really put him on that level?

There are still two major strategies I've been saving, which I will enact tomorrow.

Yes he does but he doesn't utilise that tactic until the scan I showed of him doing it. That comes after Tony dodges a good few of Spidey's hits. Taken in conjunction with Extremis Tony dodging faster movements than that, it corroborates my stance that Tony will be all over Jack if these two come to blows. And yes, Jack will realise that Tony has the superior stats and try and use the city to fight for him but I've covered in detail most ways in which Jack's attacks will be rendered inert by Tony's arsenal.

@comicstooge said:

Jack doesn't possess any human internal organs, as a child he was abducted by people from the future (from the 70th century, I believe) replaced them all with technological enhancements. Can Tony's nanites effect inorganic organs the same way they do organic organs?

His origin is detailed here:

In any case, if the nanites really do become a problem, he can lock his nervous system in with the city of London itself. Tony would have to literally wipe London off the map for the nanites to work.

As I mentioned as a disclaimer, this particular trick of Tony's is a wild card for incapacitation. He could inject some form of virus into Jack as well trough these adamantium needles and getting Jack and the city to shake it off would give Tony all the time he needs to unleash a devastating assault on Jack majorly changing the outcome of the fight.

@comicstooge said:

I know we've gone back and forth with Jack's Superman/Donna Troy striking feats for a while, but I still have more to say on that.

Well, firstly, remember how your main problem with Jack hurting the likes of Donna and Clark was that he was only capable of lifting 40 tons?

Well, with the 40 tons feat, Jack was actually cut off from communicating with cities, not only this, but he was outside of a city to begin with.

Being outside of cities severely handicaps Jack's abilities. Henry Bendix (former leader of Stormwatch turned villain) used this against him:

So, Jack's 40 ton feat is similar to feats done by Superman when effected by red sunlight, kryptonite or the like, he's not even remotely close to full capacity.

In regards to the point about the whole thing being a crossover, the DC heroes were constructs of a powerful reality warper who created made with the expressed purpose to take out the Wildstorm heroes. They seem to be roughly at their regular levels of power and use similar tactics/weapons etc to the people the reality warper based them off.

Still, Dreamwar Superman could take a punch to the face from Mr Majestic without being KO'd, so he's clearly still quite tough:

So overall, both are hard hitters. Tony way have more striking feats to his name, but Jack's feats aren't too bad himself.

He's not really much of an upfront and direct fighter anyway, but he can hang with Tony if it really comes down to it.

I'll respond t your other points soon.

Well this bit of context would have been nice to hear about earlier on in the debate mate :P Well bearing this info in mind, it's more credible for Jack to deck this faux Superman. Still it wasn't as if Jack was doing significant damage to these level of heavy hitters. I don't recall seeing him handle anyone on Apollo's level and Apollo is way below Superman and other powerhouses in stats. As for Jack being outside cities, it's important to note that Tony could be very likely to take the battle outside the city and into the sky/other areas. Not because he'll realise that Jack's connected to the city though with parts of London literally turning against him at Jack's whim, Tony might catch onto how Jack's doing this. Anyway, I've just realised that Tony can make an easy win via BFR to remove Jack from the city and decimate him in mid air so allow me to rectify that rule and exclude BFR from ways to win. It wouldn't be fair if Tony just removed Jack from the battle field thus cutting off his power source and make this debate all the less lively. As I was saying, that wouldn't stop Tony beating Jack up in mid air thus massively cutting him off from his power source and making it all the easier for Tony to land critical hits on him with fisticuffs or repulsars or other ranged weapons he has in his arsenal. Tony does have the better striking feats and based on a sketchy interpretation of what Jack's striking power is, this gives him all the more advantage in close combat with his superior speed and weaponry he can deploy.

I'll answer your other post later on today.

@comicstooge said:

Well, Jack was shown using these strategies easily enough against his various enemies, was he not? During Dreamwar, Jack and his Wildstorm comrades didn't have too much issue killing the DC heroes (even if they were constructs of a reality warper - something they didn't know) because the DC heroes were attacking them. I mean, by that same coin, would Tony really use a blast twice as hot as the sun just to take out Hawksmoor?

Realistically, Jack is far more likely to throw a city block at Tony then Tony is to totally nuke London in an attempt to get to Jack.

Gallery

Here's the thing. You saw in my scan that the blast was centralised by Tony. He converted its power into a smaller more focused beam that only targeted the person he was fighting. Like in Dragon Ball (cue the skies opening up and fire raining from the heavens for citing DBZ in a debate) And as for Tony using it, if Jack is threatening him enough, he will eventually pull it out. Morality is obviously subjective from different people but Tony will be willing to pull out some major stops to win if the needs call for it and he somehow can't incapacitate Jack.

Case in point. Here Tony's been fighting Bucky who has roughly the same moral qualms as Jack. Just using him as a basis. Look at what Tony's saying here. He's willing to liquefy Bucky's brains, Bucky who's one of Steve's oldest friends and closest allies. With Steve presumed dead at this point, it's even more of a testament that Tony's willing to kill Bucky here. Obviously Tony wanted to ask Bucky to take on the mantle of Captain America along with honouring Steve's last wishes so that hampered his willingness to kill somewhat but if Jack's giving Tony trouble, he will blast the hell out of him and use lethal measures, that I can say for certain

Good sourcing for that feat. However, Tony can divert power to his thrusters fairly quickly to avoid that and pull off that rocket thruster manoeuver you saw to weave all over the place. Even with the speeds that projectile can travel at, it'll be hard pressed to tag Tony. But let's assume Tony isn't fast enough to dodge it. He can still raise shields very quickly indeed as evidenced by diverting 1% of power into tanking a nuke. And if 1% shields can tank nukes, even a denser projectile like the ones Jack can throw will be most likely shrugged off by Tony's much fuller shield power.

@comicstooge said:

Jack was still capable of fighting and defeating that giant robot from before, despite the fact the latter was utilizing a magnetic field:

Gallery

Anyway, have Tony's magnetic powers been used on something bigger then a bunch of small objects? Jack can throw a whole cities worth of metal at Tony, are Tony's magnets really powerful enough to stop all of it?

And anyway, there's always the option of using hyper-dense concrete and such. Jack is capable of sensing Tony's use of magnets and can act accordingly.

Anyway, in regards to healing factor, while it all seems impressive and Tony can definitely talk a big game, Jack's healing factor healed his spine completely after he was diagnosed a paraplegic, does Tony have any healing feats that really put him on that level?

There are still two major strategies I've been saving, which I will enact tomorrow.

OK so he fought a robot using a magnetic field. Your points still haven't answered my pertinent question of whether Jack has actually wrestled control of magnetic fields away from someone else? I'm assuming no so far based on the lack of answer for this. Regardless of whether Jack can sense Tony using magnets, he hasn't shown the capability to take control of magnetic fields away from someone else. And as for Tony using it on small objects only, that point can be contested by observations of the scan in question

"Polar Magnetic Field charging. Polar cells at 11%."
Tony - "That's plenty."
Magnetic Field activated. Level: Low

So what we see is Tony only charging the magnetic field to 11% (which also shows just how fast he can charge it) him deeming 11% is plenty for the current situation and him activating a low magnetic field. If Tony uses a more charged up polar cells with a stronger magnetic field, I'm safe in saying this will enable him to stop a good degree of Jack's metal based attacks.

And in regards to the healing factor, I'll concede that there aren't many scans to back my point. I recall Tony having a healing factor with Extremis but he doesn't have the level of healing feats Jack does. But honestly, given the other advantages I've outlined for Tony, losing to Jack on healing factor is a small pitfall. Tony has greater durability and shielding whereas Jack will need to heal from Tony's assaults and he might not be able to do it instantly.

You still have two major strategies to post about? I assume one is about getting past Tony's shields? Well I thought this debate was wrapping up soon but this got more interesting. In regards to that though, Friday is a really hectic, long day for me so I'm afraid I won't be able to make a reply to your post until the weekend due to the many things I have going on Friday. But I'll be sure to respond to these next two strategies over the weekend. Feel free to post them at any time tomorrow.

Honestly, I'd rather you didn't rectify the rule.

Why, you ask?

Doors. That's why.

Doors are activated simply by members of the Authority saying 'Door'

Like so:

And can pretty much go wherever Jack feels like (such as: back into the city if Tony attempts to BFR him). Alternately, he can open a Door and send Tony to the sun:

And if you'd like to argue Tony's too fast for that, Doors are usable at close range:

They're to simply used for transportation either:

Doors can be used to be put inside people's bodies:

Tony could potentially have his internal organs teleported away.

This was one of my endgame strategies.

To be fair, I haven't shown the absolutely all of Jack's attacks. He has the option to utilize Doors offensively and as a tool to save him from BFR or BFR Tony himself.

And there's his greatest offensive ability...which will be revealed in time.

The virus may not do anything. Jack's internal biology is basically nothing human.

Not even his junk!

Jack's deformed man-parts could easily stun or distract Tony.

I'll respond to your other points soon.

...I feel the need to say that the last spoiler tag was a joke

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge said:

Well, Jack was shown using these strategies easily enough against his various enemies, was he not? During Dreamwar, Jack and his Wildstorm comrades didn't have too much issue killing the DC heroes (even if they were constructs of a reality warper - something they didn't know) because the DC heroes were attacking them. I mean, by that same coin, would Tony really use a blast twice as hot as the sun just to take out Hawksmoor?

Realistically, Jack is far more likely to throw a city block at Tony then Tony is to totally nuke London in an attempt to get to Jack.

Gallery

Here's the thing. You saw in my scan that the blast was centralised by Tony. He converted its power into a smaller more focused beam that only targeted the person he was fighting. Like in Dragon Ball (cue the skies opening up and fire raining from the heavens for citing DBZ in a debate) And as for Tony using it, if Jack is threatening him enough, he will eventually pull it out. Morality is obviously subjective from different people but Tony will be willing to pull out some major stops to win if the needs call for it and he somehow can't incapacitate Jack.

Case in point. Here Tony's been fighting Bucky who has roughly the same moral qualms as Jack. Just using him as a basis. Look at what Tony's saying here. He's willing to liquefy Bucky's brains, Bucky who's one of Steve's oldest friends and closest allies. With Steve presumed dead at this point, it's even more of a testament that Tony's willing to kill Bucky here. Obviously Tony wanted to ask Bucky to take on the mantle of Captain America along with honouring Steve's last wishes so that hampered his willingness to kill somewhat but if Jack's giving Tony trouble, he will blast the hell out of him and use lethal measures, that I can say for certain

Fair enough.

In all fairness, Tony was probably just trying to give himself the opportunity to get to talk to Bucky and wasn't really planning on killing him. Plus, it could've been a phrase to describe some sort of non-lethal brain scrambler weapon for all we know.

There's nothing else to add here except for the fact that Jack will stop pulling his punches first (if he even holds back to start with).

Touche sir. Still, Jack's projectiles can keep Tony occupied long enough for Jack to utilize a tactic such as using Doors to send Tony to the Moon or the like (or open a Door inside Tony himself, as Doors are capable of doing).

@lvenger said:

OK so he fought a robot using a magnetic field. Your points still haven't answered my pertinent question of whether Jack has actually wrestled control of magnetic fields away from someone else? I'm assuming no so far based on the lack of answer for this. Regardless of whether Jack can sense Tony using magnets, he hasn't shown the capability to take control of magnetic fields away from someone else. And as for Tony using it on small objects only, that point can be contested by observations of the scan in question

"Polar Magnetic Field charging. Polar cells at 11%."
Tony - "That's plenty."
Magnetic Field activated. Level: Low

So what we see is Tony only charging the magnetic field to 11% (which also shows just how fast he can charge it) him deeming 11% is plenty for the current situation and him activating a low magnetic field. If Tony uses a more charged up polar cells with a stronger magnetic field, I'm safe in saying this will enable him to stop a good degree of Jack's metal based attacks.

Despite that giant robot possessing a magnetic field, it didn't stop Jack from utilizing various metallic objects against it. Jack regularly bends and breaks the laws of physics when he's in cities. Such examples include the fact he can manipulate gravity:

Still in answer to your question, Jack does not have any feats that show him taking control over the magnetic manipulation of another character. Still, considering the aforementioned giant magnetic robot thing, it seems Jack's city constructs can indeed at least resist the effects of magnets etc.

Alternately, he has two ways to get around that.

1) Not using metallic objects (however, we've covered this)

2) Using enough metal so that it overwhelms Tony's magnet

To be fair, Tony didn't exactly do a great deal of damage to Thor or Sentry either (Hence their rankings as being mid-tier characters, I suppose).

And in terms of Jack not beating anyone on Apollo's level:

Jack in an alternate timeline was shown to kill Apollo via impalement with what appears to be a city construct:

Gallery

Well, the first of my strategies involved Jack's use of Doors (as seen in previous posts).

I've been saving this last one a trump card though.

What is it, you ask?

It's the City Titan.

That's right, Jack literally wears a a city as a big suit of armor. Eat your heart out, Pacific Rim.

How powerful is this, you ask?

Gallery

Well, here is a 70th century alien ship that could tank bombardments from the military, multiple nukes, assault from a squadron of multiple superhumans and hit with a lightning storm from Jenny Sparks, yet it wasn't even slowed down. That whole assault did next to nothing.

Jack in his City Titan destroyed it in 3 hits:

And Jenny Sparks is capable of wiping out entire legions of ships, so she clearly has a lot of power:

The City Titan should easily be capable of busting through Tony's shields and overcoming his durability.

I saved this until last for a reason, as I'm sure you can tell. It's a pretty good ace in the hole.

Well Friday was as busy as expected, however I shall make part one of my two responses to your two posts

@comicstooge said:

Honestly, I'd rather you didn't rectify the rule.

Why, you ask?

Doors. That's why.

Doors are activated simply by members of the Authority saying 'Door'

Like so:

And can pretty much go wherever Jack feels like (such as: back into the city if Tony attempts to BFR him). Alternately, he can open a Door and send Tony to the sun:

And if you'd like to argue Tony's too fast for that, Doors are usable at close range:

They're to simply used for transportation either:

Doors can be used to be put inside people's bodies:

Tony could potentially have his internal organs teleported away.

This was one of my endgame strategies.

Ah I should have guessed you'd want to use doors as a BFR strategy. Hey this is a joint debate mate, I can't veto anything without your say. In that case, BFR is still on the table though as a trade off, this means I can still have Tony BFR him into space or out away from a city where his power drops dramatically. No oxygen in space for Jack to say door remember. As for Tony getting BFRed, he's familiar with teleportation tech so he can easily figure a way back or implement some of his own teleportation counters for that tactic

Case in point

Oh and ignore the second scan btw. Unless Jack decides to BFR Tony to the sub which is unlikely since Tony isn't vastly more powerful than him, just a bit more powerful than him, opening a door into space isn't going to KO or remove Tony significantly from the battle at all really when he can fly back onto the battlefield.

@comicstooge said:

The virus may not do anything. Jack's internal biology is basically nothing human.

Not even his junk!

Jack's deformed man-parts could easily stun or distract Tony.

I'll respond to your other points soon.

...I feel the need to say that the last spoiler tag was a joke

Surely I cannot argue with such infallible logic. Truly this point is yours :P but I get the picture. The virus may not harm Jack greatly at all but it cannot be understated as a distraction to give Jack some trouble allowing Tony to pull off a sneak attack to finish the job.

@comicstooge said:

Despite that giant robot possessing a magnetic field, it didn't stop Jack from utilizing various metallic objects against it. Jack regularly bends and breaks the laws of physics when he's in cities. Such examples include the fact he can manipulate gravity:

Still in answer to your question, Jack does not have any feats that show him taking control over the magnetic manipulation of another character. Still, considering the aforementioned giant magnetic robot thing, it seems Jack's city constructs can indeed at least resist the effects of magnets etc.

Alternately, he has two ways to get around that.

1) Not using metallic objects (however, we've covered this)

2) Using enough metal so that it overwhelms Tony's magnet

I failed science hard but I'm fairly certain gravitational and magnetic fields are rather different spheres of fields. Jack being able to manipulate one shouldn't account for the other still being viable against Tony's magnets. But that's all I needed to hear. If Jack hasn't shown the ability to take away other people's magnetic control, he can't stop Tony using his own magnetic fields to nullify that advantage of Jack's.

1. We have and the stance on that from both sides is clear
2. This argument of yours does not account for Tony upping the amount of power diverted to his polar cells nor does it explain how Jack will compensate for a higher magnetic field charge. In any case, Tony can still either dodge or block the attack with his shields so either way, this isn't going to pose a fatal blow for Tony given the ways he has to counter it.

@comicstooge said:

To be fair, Tony didn't exactly do a great deal of damage to Thor or Sentry either (Hence their rankings as being mid-tier characters, I suppose).

And in terms of Jack not beating anyone on Apollo's level:

Jack in an alternate timeline was shown to kill Apollo via impalement with what appears to be a city construct:

Gallery

He gave Sentry a trickling nosebleed. If that isn't a small modicum of damage, I don't know what is. Plus Sentry comments on his speed being impressive so that's another measure of how Tony has Jack beat in that department if the Sentry compliments his speed. As for those scans, I wouldn't consider alternate realities as viable feats in this debate as there are even more alternate feats for Tony I can bring up from What If? scenarios. These aren't canon to the main timeline and the same applies to this feat of yours in the WildStorm timeline.

I'll respond to your ace in the hole in a separate post as I need some extra time to pad out what I'm thinking in my response but I've been saving an ace in the hole too that could help to sway the tide.

@comicstooge said:

I've been saving this last one a trump card though.

What is it, you ask?

It's the City Titan.

That's right, Jack literally wears a a city as a big suit of armor. Eat your heart out, Pacific Rim.

How powerful is this, you ask?

Gallery

Well, here is a 70th century alien ship that could tank bombardments from the military, multiple nukes, assault from a squadron of multiple superhumans and hit with a lightning storm from Jenny Sparks, yet it wasn't even slowed down. That whole assault did next to nothing.

Jack in his City Titan destroyed it in 3 hits:

And Jenny Sparks is capable of wiping out entire legions of ships, so she clearly has a lot of power:

The City Titan should easily be capable of busting through Tony's shields and overcoming his durability.

I saved this until last for a reason, as I'm sure you can tell. It's a pretty good ace in the hole.

Yes I can see why you saved this tactic for last. It's a really potent strategy. And I'm not going to lie, given what you've shown me the suit can do, there isn't really any way I can pull Tony winning this fight by himself if Jack brings out the City Titan. Maybe a full shield can deflect one or two strikes but a head on fight with the City Titan will result in Tony losing. Nonetheless, there are still two areas I can challenge you on. First of all, I can make the point that it's incredibly unlikely Jack will bring this card into play. As your scans show, he reserved the City Titan for massive planet spanning threats such as that ship from the future. Whilst Tony holds a number of advantages over him, it's highly unlikely from my POV that Jack will bring this card into play against one foe. A superior foe but one single guy in a suit of armour doesn't seem like a necessary, in character trigger point to bring out the City Titan. Even if Jack does think of doing that, Tony will be all over him with his superior striking power, speed and offensive capabilities that creating the City Titan will be out of the question.

Of course, you're going to object to this point so I have to play my own trump card to counter yours. What is that trump card you ask?

That's right I'm bringing in the cavalry. Tony has copies of every suit of Iron Man armour he's ever made even if the originals have been destroyed. Numerous times, protocols have been enacted by villains to steal the Iron Man armour such as during Armour Wars and Tony's brought his suits out to play on more than one occasion. They're non piloted and can function with an AI piloting them. Think of the scene in Iron Man 3 with all the suits arriving but instead of them being flimsy suits capable of being busted by a freaking truck or with minimal damage, all these suits have tanked far more than what those stupid IM3 film suits have. Bringing in Hulkbuster units capable of giving multiple versions of the Hulk a difficult time, older suits with potent weaponry and additional suits created for specific circumstances will enable Tony to even the playing field somewhat. Hell Tony has machinery that can make Iron Man armours on the go

Now I'm not saying that these suits of armour will be enough to overpower or defeat the City Titan. But by bringing these suits into play, Tony can distract the City Titan long enough to pinpoint Jack at the epicentre of the Titan and bullrush him out of the Titan. Removing Jack from the source of the City Titan will, I trust, disable the Titan once and for all without its pilot to guide it and pilot it towards its target? And Tony also has a fair few large suits of his own

A more developed Hulkbuster which was doing a decent job fighting WWH. It hit him fairly hard

He's also had a hand in developing certain types of Sentinels which he could potentially summon

Hell he even made an Anti Godzilla armour during the Godzilla/Marvel story

For the record I don't think he has this one anymore so he probably can't bring this Megazord to the fight :P

Of course, certain suits like the Thorbuster and the Phoenix armour will either have been destroyed or not made yet. But I'm sure why you also see why I saved this particular card till later on in the debate. It serves as a fitting counter to your City Titan and enables Tony to take out Jack once and for all via BFR from the city to cut off his power source totally without the city to serve Jack's power.

Well, as shown in scans of Midnighter Dooring back from space, it's not necessary that the words are actually audible.

Another of example of this is when Apollo used a Door in space to save himself when fighting Captain Atom:

I don't have the other scans to this, but Apollo said 'Door' and fell through one, right in front of Midnighter.

@lvenger said:

As for Tony getting BFRed, he's familiar with teleportation tech so he can easily figure a way back or implement some of his own teleportation counters for that tactic

Case in point

Oh and ignore the second scan btw. Unless Jack decides to BFR Tony to the sub which is unlikely since Tony isn't vastly more powerful than him, just a bit more powerful than him, opening a door into space isn't going to KO or remove Tony significantly from the battle at all really when he can fly back onto the battlefield.

Despite Tony's genius and his own highly advanced technology, the technology of the Carrier (and thereby extension Doors) are beyond his capacity to counter (or at least, not in a random encounter).

Doors can be opened across the universe, into parallel dimensions etc. There's really no range limit. Tony's teleporter seems to be only be at a range of a few miles.

And I think it's worth noting Doors are portals between two points that open and close instantaneously, not a type of energy that can be countered or re-traced.

I must ask, can Tony's armor withstand the conditions of space for very long?

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge said:

The virus may not do anything. Jack's internal biology is basically nothing human.

Not even his junk!

Jack's deformed man-parts could easily stun or distract Tony.

I'll respond to your other points soon.

...I feel the need to say that the last spoiler tag was a joke

Surely I cannot argue with such infallible logic. Truly this point is yours :P but I get the picture. The virus may not harm Jack greatly at all but it cannot be understated as a distraction to give Jack some trouble allowing Tony to pull off a sneak attack to finish the job.

It's hard to sneak attack a guy who's basically omnipresent and can sense everyone and everything in a city. Even if Jack himself is distracted by the virus, the city he's in can still communicate with him and warn him of Tony's attack (precognition is most helpful).

His city constructs can be summoned pretty fast, after all.

And if we're talking sneak attacks, Jack can always do this:

It's also worth noting Jack punched right through a clone who were durable enough to take punches from Apollo. ;)

He can use his magnet for as long as his power holds out for. He'd have to divert a lot more then 11% power to his polar fields to prevent multiple skyscrapers worth of metal being launched at him. Having to waste so much power trying to stop Jack's use of metal would leave him open to other attacks (or his polar field could just be taxed too much and be overwhelmed).

While having a magnet in his suit is impressive, Tony isn't Magneto and can't rely too heavily on his magnet to save him.

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge said:

To be fair, Tony didn't exactly do a great deal of damage to Thor or Sentry either (Hence their rankings as being mid-tier characters, I suppose).

And in terms of Jack not beating anyone on Apollo's level:

Jack in an alternate timeline was shown to kill Apollo via impalement with what appears to be a city construct:

Gallery

He gave Sentry a trickling nosebleed. If that isn't a small modicum of damage, I don't know what is. Plus Sentry comments on his speed being impressive so that's another measure of how Tony has Jack beat in that department if the Sentry compliments his speed. As for those scans, I wouldn't consider alternate realities as viable feats in this debate as there are even more alternate feats for Tony I can bring up from What If? scenarios. These aren't canon to the main timeline and the same applies to this feat of yours in the WildStorm timeline.

I'll respond to your ace in the hole in a separate post as I need some extra time to pad out what I'm thinking in my response but I've been saving an ace in the hole too that could help to sway the tide.

Jack's punch had Dreamwar Superman wiping blood from his mouth, so he too did a small amount of damage to guy who could get slugged in the face from Mr Majestic and be fine seconds later.

Yeah, I figured that would be the case. However, the Doctor was showing a guy history of an alternate future that could've occurred in the main timeline, so I think it at least deserves some mention.

Anyway, sounds good. Good luck with your response.

The City Titan was actually created quite quickly, fast enough so that none of the superheroes moved at all during it's creation. Still, even if Tony starts attempting to destroy it and it's just partially created, Jack can heal the city with one his energy waves in order for him to just keep assembling it.

And in all fairness, Henry Bendix wasn't a giant ship from the future (just an opponent who outclassed Jack), yet Hawksmoor used Brisbee on him when he was running out of options, so utilizing London as a City Titan is most certainly not out of the question for him, especially against someone like Tony, who would be such a brutal and close match for Jack that he'd have no choice but to pull out all the stops in order to win.

@lvenger said:

Yes I can see why you saved this tactic for last. It's a really potent strategy. And I'm not going to lie, given what you've shown me the suit can do, there isn't really any way I can pull Tony winning this fight by himself if Jack brings out the City Titan. Maybe a full shield can deflect one or two strikes but a head on fight with the City Titan will result in Tony losing. Nonetheless, there are still two areas I can challenge you on. First of all, I can make the point that it's incredibly unlikely Jack will bring this card into play. As your scans show, he reserved the City Titan for massive planet spanning threats such as that ship from the future. Whilst Tony holds a number of advantages over him, it's highly unlikely from my POV that Jack will bring this card into play against one foe. A superior foe but one single guy in a suit of armour doesn't seem like a necessary, in character trigger point to bring out the City Titan. Even if Jack does think of doing that, Tony will be all over him with his superior striking power, speed and offensive capabilities that creating the City Titan will be out of the question.

Of course, you're going to object to this point so I have to play my own trump card to counter yours. What is that trump card you ask?

That's right I'm bringing in the cavalry. Tony has copies of every suit of Iron Man armour he's ever made even if the originals have been destroyed. Numerous times, protocols have been enacted by villains to steal the Iron Man armour such as during Armour Wars and Tony's brought his suits out to play on more than one occasion. They're non piloted and can function with an AI piloting them. Think of the scene in Iron Man 3 with all the suits arriving but instead of them being flimsy suits capable of being busted by a freaking truck or with minimal damage, all these suits have tanked far more than what those stupid IM3 film suits have. Bringing in Hulkbuster units capable of giving multiple versions of the Hulk a difficult time, older suits with potent weaponry and additional suits created for specific circumstances will enable Tony to even the playing field somewhat. Hell Tony has machinery that can make Iron Man armours on the go

Now I'm not saying that these suits of armour will be enough to overpower or defeat the City Titan. But by bringing these suits into play, Tony can distract the City Titan long enough to pinpoint Jack at the epicentre of the Titan and bullrush him out of the Titan. Removing Jack from the source of the City Titan will, I trust, disable the Titan once and for all without its pilot to guide it and pilot it towards its target? And Tony also has a fair few large suits of his own

A more developed Hulkbuster which was doing a decent job fighting WWH. It hit him fairly hard

He's also had a hand in developing certain types of Sentinels which he could potentially summon

Hell he even made an Anti Godzilla armour during the Godzilla/Marvel story

For the record I don't think he has this one anymore so he probably can't bring this Megazord to the fight :P

Of course, certain suits like the Thorbuster and the Phoenix armour will either have been destroyed or not made yet. But I'm sure why you also see why I saved this particular card till later on in the debate. It serves as a fitting counter to your City Titan and enables Tony to take out Jack once and for all via BFR from the city to cut off his power source totally without the city to serve Jack's power.

In regards to Tony locating the epicentre of the City Titan and breaking through in an attempt to get to Jack, if he were to be successful at this, Jack can still use a Door to get back to the location. Doors don't require specific co-ordinance either, Jack can simply think "open Door in enemy’s flight path" and it will do so.

And while the many suits would be an issue, Jack's City Titan is easily fast enough to tag them:

The Brisbee Titan could tag Henry Bendix.

How fast is Henry Bendix?

He straight up embarrasses Midnighter (a guy with speed enough to dodge a speeding Apollo and can react to speedsters) despite the fact Midnighter could run millions of scenarios of the fight in his head and likely knew Bendix was going to make the move:

Since Tony can utilize his House Party protocol (I won't object to it, it's a brilliant strategy that I honestly didn't think would come up, bravo), can Jack also use a resource he could also use in a random encounter - the Carrier?

When have they been opened into space or alternate dimensions? As for Tony's armour being able to survive in space

As we can see here, an earlier mark version of Tony's armour is easily surviving the pressure and cold of space without any ill effect. And this isn't one of Tony's special space armours either

@comicstooge said:

It's hard to sneak attack a guy who's basically omnipresent and can sense everyone and everything in a city. Even if Jack himself is distracted by the virus, the city he's in can still communicate with him and warn him of Tony's attack (precognition is most helpful).

His city constructs can be summoned pretty fast, after all.

And if we're talking sneak attacks, Jack can always do this:

It's also worth noting Jack punched right through a clone who were durable enough to take punches from Apollo. ;)

I'm not talking about him sneak attacking Jack. My proposed tactic was for Tony to prick him with a virus whilst he's overpowering Jack in physical combat which Jack will be lagging behind in that department. And Tony's dealt with guys durable enough to take hits from Thor and other Marvel powerhouses too.

The power reserves in the Extremis armour are much more plentiful than the power cells in previous armours. Tony can afford to expend a bit more power on his polar fields whilst also launching a repulsar and uni beam assault on Jack from afar too. And yes Tony doesn't just have to rely on his magnets to save him. He can dodge the skyscrapers and other metal attacks with his superior flight speed and manoeuvrability not to mention being able to shield himself from the attack. So there are several ways Tony can defend against these kinds of attacks.

As I said, I figured you'd contest this point. It's right to point out it would be a close contest between these two close up given Tony's superior physicals so I can't say it surprises me that Jack would pull this move out of the bag now. Aside from pointing out that there's a good chance Tony will have beaten Jack before he pulls out the City Titan tactic, I can't think of anything else to say here.

@comicstooge said:

In regards to Tony locating the epicentre of the City Titan and breaking through in an attempt to get to Jack, if he were to be successful at this, Jack can still use a Door to get back to the location. Doors don't require specific co-ordinance either, Jack can simply think "open Door in enemy’s flight path" and it will do so.

And while the many suits would be an issue, Jack's City Titan is easily fast enough to tag them:

The Brisbee Titan could tag Henry Bendix.

How fast is Henry Bendix?

He straight up embarrasses Midnighter (a guy with speed enough to dodge a speeding Apollo and can react to speedsters) despite the fact Midnighter could run millions of scenarios of the fight in his head and likely knew Bendix was going to make the move:

Since Tony can utilize his House Party protocol (I won't object to it, it's a brilliant strategy that I honestly didn't think would come up, bravo), can Jack also use a resource he could also use in a random encounter - the Carrier?

But this doesn't answer my question of what happens to the City Titan after Jack's out of it. It needs him to pilot it I presume and direct it and all that. So without Jack in the City Titan, will the Titan collapse to the ground without anyone in it? That would be all Tony needs to pull off a strong victory if Jack's source of power is cut off from the destroyed Titan he used as a weapon. As for the Door point, Tony would be giving him massive grief up close if he managed to separate Jack from the Titan and in the scans you post of Jack outside cities, he's not doing too well in them. He might not have a chance to say door whilst Tony is unleashing himself on him which he would definitely be doing at this point ie fighting seriously after Jack used an entire city as a suit of armour.

And woop dee do dah, it can tag a guy who made Midnighter like a chump. There goes my speed edge. Fortunately, you have to sacrifice some pawns to checkmate the king sometimes. And I have another area to bring up. With the Titan fighting a sea of red and gold Iron Man suits, Jack's not going to know which one is the real deal. This gives Tony the time to analyse the Titan, pick Jack out and rush Jack out of the Titan out of the area.

So that's the name of the protocol? Thanks but I had to think of something to counter the giant city behemoth you brought in. And why do you want to bring in The Authority's headquarters into the fight?

@lvenger said:

@comicstooge said:

Despite Tony's genius and his own highly advanced technology, the technology of the Carrier (and thereby extension Doors) are beyond his capacity to counter (or at least, not in a random encounter).

Doors can be opened across the universe, into parallel dimensions etc. There's really no range limit. Tony's teleporter seems to be only be at a range of a few miles.

And I think it's worth noting Doors are portals between two points that open and close instantaneously, not a type of energy that can be countered or re-traced.

I must ask, can Tony's armor withstand the conditions of space for very long?

When have they been opened into space or alternate dimensions? As for Tony's armour being able to survive in space

As we can see here, an earlier mark version of Tony's armour is easily surviving the pressure and cold of space without any ill effect. And this isn't one of Tony's special space armours either

My mistake, Doors themselves haven't transported them to other universes (or, not what I've seen), but The Carrier was designed to be a trading ship between universes, so one of it's functions is multiversal travel.

But if the virus can't effect someone with Jack's funky biology, wouldn't Tony just be stabbing him with a substance that does nothing to him?

In terms of assaulting Jack from afar, Jack won't simply be standing like a target in front of Tony, he'll be in the walls of buildings or in the ground etc.

Jack would be able to locate and attack Tony much easier then Tony can locate and attack Jack.

At the very least I think I've shown Jack can hold his own against Tony, without utilizing things such as the more advanced applications of Doors and the City Titan.

Well, as shown with Brisbee, Jack wasn't physically inside it (he was standing on Brisbee's head, if I'm not mistaken) so it doesn't necessarily require a pilot.

And to separate Jack from the Titan would require to Tony to punch through a hell of a lot of density increased concrete, metal etc. I'm not even sure how much the Titan could weigh. Billions of tons? Trillions? More?

It's worth noting the lasers of that 70th century ship barely seemed to scratch the Titan:

By the time Tony locates Jack (if he can locate Jack, given the sheer density and size of the Titan) it may be too late.

I just refereed to it as the House Party protocol because that's what it was called in the movie, outside of that, I'm not sure of it's name.

Well, mainly because it's big enough to count as city, so Jack can operate inside of it and can communicate with it (as he can all cities) and bring it to him. He doesn't have to present in a city to communicate with it.

In terms of why I'd want to bring it into the fight, the Carrier can do things such as fit a small universe into it's cargo bay, it protected itself from an alien bomb (it saved 70% of itself) and could tactical nuke Tony and all of his suits from orbit.

It could be somewhat overkill, but that's never stopped Jack before.

When do you want to start voting @lvenger?

Would you like to make the last post, or should I?

If you don't mind, I'd just to make one last post clearing up a few parts of your reply then maybe we move to voting if it's alright with you. This has been one helluva long debate and if we continue, people might fall asleep reading it given its length :P

As I showed Tony tagging fast moving opponents like the Torch, missiles and rapid firing his repulsars as fast as he can think in past versions of his armours, Extremis is a step up from all those. Jack will be even more hard pressed to avoid those attacks. And when he does blend into the environment and try and use the city against Jack, my other strategies come into play.

@comicstooge said:

Well, as shown with Brisbee, Jack wasn't physically inside it (he was standing on Brisbee's head, if I'm not mistaken) so it doesn't necessarily require a pilot.

And to separate Jack from the Titan would require to Tony to punch through a hell of a lot of density increased concrete, metal etc. I'm not even sure how much the Titan could weigh. Billions of tons? Trillions? More?

It's worth noting the lasers of that 70th century ship barely seemed to scratch the Titan:

By the time Tony locates Jack (if he can locate Jack, given the sheer density and size of the Titan) it may be too late.

It needs him to control it though. And if Jack is getting BFRed by Tony, he can't use the City Titan against Jack anyway. Lasers is one thing, physical force is another. Tony's punched through that level of concrete before. And, to avoid any possible danger, he can always send a random suit of armour in to get Jack then take Jack from them to BFR him himself. That way, there's no danger of Tony being in danger from blitzing the City Titan. Given that Tony's sensors have located minuscule details in situations, I'm certain he can pick up on Jack's vital signs as he can for many different people

Example of him controlling armour externally

Example of his sensors picking up on vitals on people on board a ship

Eh not certain Tony would warrant bringing in that ship into play. Might be a tad overkill even moreso than the behemoth.

Well do you have anything else left to say @comicstooge? I've expended all my options of what I can think of so unless you want to make one last post, perhaps we can move to voting? In any case, it's been a pleasure to do this again to finish our tie breaker debate and you've made one absolutely brilliant debater to make a case against. This is probably the best out of the 3 debates we've done IMO as it's much closer so it'll be interesting to see where the votes go. But hey up to you when we start voting. If you want to make another last post, that's fine by me.

And hopefully once my Christmas holidays start, I'll be available for more CAVs with you perhaps. In any case, this is a good CAV to go out on for a few month's hiatus. Best of luck in voting! :)

I'm going abroad around Chritmas time, but hopefully I might be able to squeeze a CAV in before or afterwards.

I think I might make one more response, considering the first response was yours, if that's OK.

@comicstooge: By all means, feel free to make one last post. I've pretty much said everything I can think of. And I'll be avaliable in the early weeks of January btw.

I won't be able to get back to you tomorrow, due to the fact it'll be my Birthday. :D

However, the day after, I'll post my last response and we can get to voting. Is that all good?

@comicstooge: Perfectly fine by me. Make sure you enjoy your birthday tomorrow! :)

@lvenger said:

If you don't mind, I'd just to make one last post clearing up a few parts of your reply then maybe we move to voting if it's alright with you. This has been one helluva long debate and if we continue, people might fall asleep reading it given its length :P

@comicstooge said:

In terms of assaulting Jack from afar, Jack won't simply be standing like a target in front of Tony, he'll be in the walls of buildings or in the ground etc.

Jack would be able to locate and attack Tony much easier then Tony can locate and attack Jack.

As I showed Tony tagging fast moving opponents like the Torch, missiles and rapid firing his repulsars as fast as he can think in past versions of his armours, Extremis is a step up from all those. Jack will be even more hard pressed to avoid those attacks. And when he does blend into the environment and try and use the city against Jack, my other strategies come into play.

@comicstooge said:

Well, as shown with Brisbee, Jack wasn't physically inside it (he was standing on Brisbee's head, if I'm not mistaken) so it doesn't necessarily require a pilot.

And to separate Jack from the Titan would require to Tony to punch through a hell of a lot of density increased concrete, metal etc. I'm not even sure how much the Titan could weigh. Billions of tons? Trillions? More?

It's worth noting the lasers of that 70th century ship barely seemed to scratch the Titan:

By the time Tony locates Jack (if he can locate Jack, given the sheer density and size of the Titan) it may be too late.

It needs him to control it though. And if Jack is getting BFRed by Tony, he can't use the City Titan against Jack anyway. Lasers is one thing, physical force is another. Tony's punched through that level of concrete before. And, to avoid any possible danger, he can always send a random suit of armour in to get Jack then take Jack from them to BFR him himself. That way, there's no danger of Tony being in danger from blitzing the City Titan. Given that Tony's sensors have located minuscule details in situations, I'm certain he can pick up on Jack's vital signs as he can for many different people

Example of him controlling armour externally

Example of his sensors picking up on vitals on people on board a ship

@comicstooge said:

I just refereed to it as the House Party protocol because that's what it was called in the movie, outside of that, I'm not sure of it's name.

Well, mainly because it's big enough to count as city, so Jack can operate inside of it and can communicate with it (as he can all cities) and bring it to him. He doesn't have to present in a city to communicate with it.

In terms of why I'd want to bring it into the fight, the Carrier can do things such as fit a small universe into it's cargo bay, it protected itself from an alien bomb (it saved 70% of itself) and could tactical nuke Tony and all of his suits from orbit.

It could be somewhat overkill, but that's never stopped Jack before.

Eh not certain Tony would warrant bringing in that ship into play. Might be a tad overkill even moreso than the behemoth.

Actually, I do think it's best if we wrap it up with this post, otherwise we'd just be retreading over old arguments.

As a short response to your last couple of points I'll say this:

Alright, I'm done and ready for voting. :)

Best of luck!

@comicstooge: All right then and best of luck to you too! Let's open voting!

I'll bring in some voters

@dondave@veshark@laflux@jashro44@heraldofganthet@ancient_0f_days@theacidskull@slimj87d@ghostravage@dredeuced@neongamewave@jwalser3

If you guys have time to spare, comicstooge and I would appreciate it if you could spare a moment reading our debate and voting. Be warned, it is a fairly long debate though :P

@comicstooge @lvenger

Wow. No lie, you guys really saved the best for last. Putting the two of you in a CaV together is already a good mix but this...man, you guys really outdid yourselves. This is how a tie-breaker should be.

I don't even have much to comment on. Both of you were at the top of your debating form. There were some points that were a little shaky here and there (Jack's strength, the Winter Soldier feat), but this felt like I was reading an epic comic battle in text. When you guys broke out the City Titan vs. the Iron Legion I went, "Sheeeeeetttt....."

This is the first time I've ever reread parts of a CaV just to get a clearer sense of the debate. In fact, I feel like this is the closest match the two of you have ever had. Both of you came correct.

In the end, my vote goes to @lvenger by a slim margin; reason being that I felt he put up stronger counterarguments on a more consistent basis, and his argument that it's easier for IM to harm Jack came across stronger. But really, votes could go either way on this one.

Mad props to the two of you for this debate, though. This one's one for the album.

@veshark: Thanks and yeah we did leave the best for last I think. This one is way closer and there are areas I genuinely can't respond to. But out of curiosity, what undermined my Winter Soldier scan relating to Tony's morals in character? And thanks for voting!

@lvenger No problem, this was an awesome ride to read from start to finish.

In regards to the Winter Soldier scan, having read the issue, I felt that it wasn't an accurate scan to make a point that Tony will go to pretty far extremes to win. In that situation, I'm certain that Tony had zero intention of liquefying Bucky's brain. If Bucky was just another villain, he would've shut him down in ten seconds flat, but he was holding back the entire fight and continuously trying to reason with him.

In fact, the only reason why he threatens to liquify Bucky is to simply make the point that he won't. You'll note that even after the threat, he immediately drops his repulsors, even though Buck still has a gun pointed to his open head. It's a gesture of trust on Tony's part, to prove to Bucky that he had nothing to do with Cap's death (because Bucky was hunting him post-Civil War), and that he only wanted to help.

A better scan to use would've been this one, where Tony BFRs MODOK into space and lets him die xD

But it's just a minor nitpick on my part (big Bucky/IM fan and all), and you still put up a hell of an argument.

@veshark: Fair enough, I can definitely see where you're coming from with that feat. If I'd known about that feat, I'd have brought it out in showing what Tony can do.

I'm genuinely interested to hear what @buckshot has to say, being the premier Wildstorm expert.

Thank you for reading through our debate (twice)!

I hope you had as much fun reading it as we did debating it.

@lvenger gets my vote.

2 - Lvenger

0 - Me