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#1 Edited by The_Hajduk (5974 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a redux of a previous debate seven months ago. It's been deleted and we both agreed that we wanted to start from scratch.

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  • Composite versions of both. All official DC material and all official Capcom material.
  • Slade - Handgun, Sword, Explosives, Pre-Ikon Suit
  • Chris - Assault rifle, Handgun, RPG, Combat Knife, Tactical vest, Flashbangs
  • Random encounter
  • In character; fighting as enemies
  • To death or incapacitation

Battlefield-

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Redfield - @nickzambuto

Wilson - @elijah_c_washington

Scenario: The African nation of Kijuju. Special operations captain Chris Redfield is on a mission with his team, investigating possible Bio-Organic Weapons (BOWs) spotted lurking in the area.

Unbeknownst to him, the assassin Deathstroke has been hired to put an end to the BSAA's interference...

Without warning, the bearded assassin ambushes the unit and neutralizes Chris's entire team. They are still alive however, and Chris knows it is up to him to stop this villain if he wants to protect his men.

Slade knows these turkeys were creeps, and Chris has had enough of his bullshit...

The battle is set.

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#2 Posted by pansito (1207 posts) - - Show Bio

m8 what? t4v

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#3 Posted by The_Hajduk (5974 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington

So I think Chris's advantages over Slade are strength and firepower. He's better in a gunfight by a huge amount based off his ability to take on entire villages of superhumans coming at him consistently. People really undervalue what is required of Chris every time he's put in situations where he has to fight literally hundreds of superhumans at once and win, but this shows amazing coolheadedness, focus, tactical awareness, endurance, and reaction times.

People don't realize that RE5 takes place over the course of two days where Chris is just fighting scores of superhumans almost nonstop without ever getting tired and without ever making one mistake. He's unflappable. I mean this is pretty much what you do in every action shooter but I don't think many games reach the sheer quantity of opposition as Resident Evil. Every time I play RE5 my kill count at the end of the game is easily over 1,000.

And RE6 raised the stakes significantly with every enemy now being trained and heavily armed, so now Chris's advantage in the previous game, guns, is gone, and also the number of hostiles is increased drastically. Chris still steamrolls his way through every battlefield and rarely even gets touched, although in this game you can sometimes see little beads of sweat on his forehead during cutscenes so I guess it isn't quite so effortless anymore? He is pushing his mid-forties by this point.

It's kinda difficult to paint a picture of these scenes without you actually playing the game, since what I'm describing is literally just the entire game and I can't sum it up with any five minute long cutscene... but this trailer does a pretty good job of capturing the intensity, aggression, and odds Chris faced. Keep in mind this is just RE5. RE6 is the same thing except imagine if all these enemies had rifles.

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Chris is able to manage these hordes while rarely taking damage by always maintaining a cool and tactical head. He is an expert with both firearms and melee allowing him to fend off the hordes no matter the situation, and he's one of the very best there is at taking advantage of the environment in clever and unorthodox ways to give himself any advantage whatsoever. Chris is a survivor at his core, keep in mind he performs these missions with only the bare minimum of equipment, sometimes just a handgun. He'll barricade himself into houses and scavenge for supplies while picking them off, until the hordes start smashing down the walls and corner him, but then he'll escape by dropping an electrical generator to fry them or firing at the mountain to collapse rocks on their heads, he sets off huge explosions with just the resources in his environment, never has any prep, all he does is think in the heat of battle, and he always comes up with something to sway the odds in his favor.

This is very relevant because Deathstroke very recently fought 300 men and he basically said it was one of the fights of his life, even while removing the bulk of them with one big bomb. Despite all his metahuman stats and statements made about how amazing he is, it took him about 35 years and nearly 900 appearances before he actually performed a feat on the magnitude that Chris does in every single level. People say that Deathstroke owns Chris because of his enhancements and all his comic book martial arts skill with pressure points and such, but I say, you either put up or shut up. Deathstroke is superior on paper yet he regularly operates on a much lower scale than Chris. Yes you can say he has interactions with the likes of Superman and such and has to outsmart him, but that's obviously a lot different than just outright fighting an army head-on, which is what Chris's job is.

So given the scale Chris operates on and his status in-universe as a living legend, I don't see any reason why he couldn't keep up. Even if we look at Marvel vs Capcom, which isn't canon but it is our only official look at what Chris's role would be within a comic book universe, we have Thor calling him Commander, Ultron and Hulk both showing him respect, Captain America considers him a partner, and he doesn't even get scared face-to-face with Shuma Gorath. The man has killed monsters the size of Godzilla on foot. Sometimes he has special weaponry but sometimes he doesn't, so he just has to figure it out, like when he fought the impenetrable Ogroman and had the idea to scale up its back and literally rip its internal organs out of its body with his bare hands just so he would have something vulnerable to fire at. That's legendary. So I'd say if they crossed over, Slade would regard Chris as nothing less than a peer on the battlefield.

He also uses Assault Rifles proficiently while Slade only carries a Handgun. This all gives Chris the gunfighting advantage. Deathstroke is a tactical machine so he'd recognize this and try to close the gap, but that won't be easy when Chris is also a tactical machine and will do everything he can to make sure the gap stays open. It's not like Slade is a speedster or a stealth expert so I'm frankly not seeing a way for him to get close if Chris doesn't want that to happen. If he starts flipping around and closing the gap, Chris will just backpedal, and Chris is also proficient with flash bangs, frag grenades, using the environment to his advantage in unorthodox ways, AND he has an RPG too. I feel like Slade has no options but to try and close the distance, but the problem is that while doing so, he's putting himself in the most danger, and I picture him getting shot early on because Chris has been able to tag P30 Jill (headshot) and Albert Wesker with a precision shot (his fingers to make him lose the grip on his gun) and Alexia Ashford while she was flying, and with a clunky Linear Launcher too. As well as Lickers, Cerberus, and Hunters, all of which are enhanced and have the same speed and agility as Jill/Wesker/Alexia/Slade, but Jill/Wesker/Alexia are most notable because they have the agility in addition to tactical awareness, just like Slade.

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There's just too much going against Slade for him to clear this unscathed. I say if Chris can land just two bullets of his assault rifle onto the unarmored portions of Slade's body, the fight is over. Slade can fight effectively through one bullet wound, but after two Chris would curbstomp him. I think that saying Slade can withstand any more than two bullet holes and still fight effectively would be wank, and frankly I think saying he can close this gap without taking even two rounds would also be wank. Or better yet, Chris can cripple Slade using a rocket launcher, which he's been able to tag blur-speed Tyrants with (which doesn't have the reflexes of Slade but it arguably moves faster and Chris tracked it easy).

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If the round does reach close quarters, Slade isn't out of the woods yet. Chris can still utilize his gun within CQC, a skill which Slade is not adept at, and dodging from point blank range while also fighting is going to be next to impossible for someone who isn't a speedster. Slade might be a bullet timer and he can run almost as fast as a train, but he can not move at the speed of sound.

And on top of that, Chris's Assault Rifle is customized with a blade at the end giving him a way to counter Deathstroke's fighting style. He fights like a combination of a swordsman, a soldier, a street brawler, and a professional wrestler all in one. This makes him more versatile than Deathstroke, and a lot more unpredictable. Chris was faced with several dozen zombies in a hallway, just wide enough for him to be surrounded but not open enough for him to have much space, and he killed them all without being bitten or hurt.

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That's all for now. Really what you need to do is prove that Slade can even clear this gap, which would necessitate proving that he is faster than Wesker, Jill, and Alexia. Because gunfighting with Chris is just going to be a lost cause when he's more experienced at it, has better feats, and uses stronger firepower.

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#4 Posted by LDM (5361 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#5 Edited by The_Hajduk (5974 posts) - - Show Bio

I tried keeping it short and general for you. Three posts each has kinda become the norm for CaVs around here but we don't really need to abide by that, that just results in posts becoming massive to fit every single factor in at once. Instead we can spend 6 pages debating this, gradually going deeper and deeper into specifics with each post, rather than laying absolutely everything out at once. I think that Chris's role and portrayal and the scale of what he does is the first thing that needs to be understood if I am to convince people he is at the least a peer to Slade, so a lot of my post focused on that. You probably don't need to do the same, we all know the scale and status of Deathstroke within DC, fighting fire with fire here would just be redundant when we instead have so much other ground to cover (I quit a lot of CaVs because they just stagnate over the same arguments and that isn't fun) although of course you are free to counter however you see fit, I'm just throwing out how I plan for this CaV to go down.

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#6 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

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Slade Joseph Wilson is Deathstroke, the world's deadliest assassin; officially responsible for well over 1,000 executions. He uses his elite training, vast arsenal, genetically enhanced strength, reflexes, intellect and rapid healing to complete all of his contracts, never going back on his word. For more information on the character, I will refer you to his bio entry from Teen Titans and Outsiders: Secret Files and Origins (2003):

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I think his basic power-set is already a pretty good counter to Redfield's own. Chris is strong and has lots of firepower but Slade is faster, more agile, and he knows how to take a hit. He also has a more versatile and even lethal skill-set in my opinion, and should have what it takes to soundly outfight Chris between his gear, physicals and skills.

The Ranged Phase:

The gap doesn't seem like it would be too big of a problem to manage. One thing Slade has that Jill/Wesker/Alexia maybe don't is his advanced weapons knowledge. Slade has even taught his daughter how to identify clip capacity and rate of fire in order to count shots and know when an opponent's gun is empty: |1|2|. He's also evaded shots from skilled marksmen in the past, making the problem twofold. A list of characters he has evaded would include Gunfire, Deadshot, and Arsenal.

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  • Gunfire opens fire on Slade with his automatic shotgun but he dodges his bullets until he runs out of ammo, even making him remark that Slade was too fast to be human.
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  • Deathstroke is wounded and not at his physical best but still dodges gunfire from an unusually homicidal Deadshot three times in a row, closes the distance, lands a few hits on him, and dodged him some more explicitly after Floyd had gotten a bead on him, saying that only his reflexes saved him.
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  • Deathstroke is standing still from a few feet away when he gives Arsenal a free shot, then acrobatically dodges the bullets with a handstand and throws explosives that Roy is then forced to wildly throw himself out of the way of.

Moreover, Slade is also capable of using his gear to manage the distance between him and Chris. You can see that he threw explosives at Roy to knock him off balance, a tactic that should remain just as effective against Redfield. Additionally, his sword gives him the means to block or deflect oncoming bullets as he once did against Pat Trayce for instance, the third Vigilante, while leaping forward at the same time.

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Slade can still retaliate with his own firearm as well. His handgun is far from your ordinary sidearm, seeing as it shoots people so hard they get thrown through walls and has since been upgraded to include five separate types of ammunition, infrared scopes, laser sights and the ability to convert into a snipe rifle in no more than three seconds: |1|2|. Most importantly, however, is the fact that Slade can use it while flipping around and avoiding gunfire.

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I think this puts Chris in a tough spot. He can shoot and he might even be able to evade bullets at times, but can he do both at the same time? Can he tag someone that can do both at the same time? Last but not least, there is also the stealth angle. You say Slade's not a stealth master, but how do you define mastery? Slade's perfectly adept at stealth and has been since his pre-Crisis days, and the newer Rebirth comics really highlight that part of his character. Slade can sit down in a plane, strap himself in, and still ghost Power Girl by the time she got a hold of said plane.

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Between his physicals, equipment and skills I might even say Slade is overqualified for the task of closing the distance, but I'll wait to hear what you have to say about that. Nevertheless, I still think Deathstroke is an entirely new opponent to Chris and neither Wesker, Jill, or Alexia make a truly viable comparison.

Close Combat:

If the round does reach close quarters, Slade isn't out of the woods yet. Chris can still utilize his gun within CQC, a skill which Slade is not adept at, and dodging from point blank range while also fighting is going to be next to impossible for someone who isn't a speedster. Slade might be a bullet timer and he can run almost as fast as a train, but he can not move at the speed of sound.

I don't know why you don't think Slade is adept at using his gun in close quarters, because he is. He has even briefly gone up against Kasumi (Cassandra Cain) in the same series where she was attacking people in faster-than-eyesight blurs and using nerve strikes, fighting her evenly and even getting his gun right into position under her chin by the time the fight was called off and they were both declared winners.

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Also, since when was moving at the speed of sound a requirement for being too fast for Chris? It's not like you think he can just can casually keep up with anything less than a supersonic character, right? One of the reasons I would say Deathstroke can outpace him is because he's been able to blitz characters that can match Chris's speed feats and actually has better feats against other much faster characters like Cassandra Cain. Cass once said she couldn't read him partially because his "voices" were too fast, and this occurred when he was holding back his speed as well.

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And on top of that, Chris's Assault Rifle is customized with a blade at the end giving him a way to counter Deathstroke's fighting style. He fights like a combination of a swordsman, a soldier, a street brawler, and a professional wrestler all in one. This makes him more versatile than Deathstroke, and a lot more unpredictable.

Well, Deathstroke obviously fights like a combination of a soldier and a swordsman as well. I mean, he's just capable of flat-out using his gun and his sword at the same time, which more than makes up for the lack of a bayonet with him.

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  • The guys Deathstroke was killing had just started to give Cheshire trouble, but he snuck into the middle of the battlefield and killed three of them without effort, counting the one on the previous page.

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  • Slade is raiding a castle here, fighting against hundreds all while his maneuverability is hindered by wearing Steel's boots. Indeed, he wore those things without the motor assists that the actual Steel wears, getting by solely on his enhanced strength. He is normally much more agile than he was here.

When it comes to street brawling, so what? Deathstroke has been referred to as likely the highest trained soldier on the planet by Lex Luthor, is a confirmed expert in various combat disciplines, a master of a certain amount of Chinese guerrilla tactics and fighting styles, etc. It also helps that Green Arrow has likened him to the greatest grandmasters as well as Batman when he dropped Zatanna with a pressure point and played on Hawkman's expectations, cutting off his wings and sending him plummeting to the ground. Lastly, Black Lightning made a comparison between him and Batman too, stating he doesn't even fight like Bruce, and implying that he's just something worse.

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There's more where that came from, for sure. That was mostly just accolades but that's all it needs to be in this first post. Let's not forget that Slade still has his evasion going for him, and has actually fought a super-strength brawler before. I am talking about his son, Jericho, who's also trained and capable of flight. He was, in fact, blitzed when he fought Slade, so much so he was straight-up bloodlusted.

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As for wrestling, Slade has actually wrestled with characters who held enormous strength advantages over him before, such as Lex Luthor in Cornell's The Black Ring Saga. Lex was actively trying to keep the fight to a wrestling match where he could press his strength advantage, but Slade proved to be too elusive even when his speed and skills were hindered by his artificially altered mindset. He managed to throw Luthor on his back a few feet away, which he followed up with a kick that Lex nearly admitted would've killed him if not for his forcefield.

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And even then, there's still the matters of explosives and stealth which we're yet to truly get into, I feel. What did you think Deathstroke's advantages were going into this fight? Do you disagree when I say he's a very versatile fighter in general? It's hard to figure out what your exact view of Slade really is.

Chris was faced with several dozen zombies in a hallway, just wide enough for him to be surrounded but not open enough for him to have much space, and he killed them all without being bitten or hurt.

Deathstroke's definitely faster and more skilled than any of those zombies, man. If I'm not mistaken, those things were weak enough to get taken out by a scared female scientist with a pair of scissors in the same movie; of course Chris, with an assault rifle, could take out dozens. Do you really think Slade couldn't? What exactly are you trying to prove with this feat?

Closing Counters:

Chris is able to manage these hordes while rarely taking damage by always maintaining a cool and tactical head. He is an expert with both firearms and melee allowing him to fend off the hordes no matter the situation, and he's one of the very best there is at taking advantage of the environment in clever and unorthodox ways to give himself any advantage whatsoever. Chris is a survivor at his core, keep in mind he performs these missions with only the bare minimum of equipment, sometimes just a handgun. He'll barricade himself into houses and scavenge for supplies while picking them off, until the hordes start smashing down the walls and corner him, but then he'll escape by dropping an electrical generator to fry them or firing at the mountain to collapse rocks on their heads, he sets off huge explosions with just the resources in his environment, never has any prep, all he does is think in the heat of battle, and he always comes up with something to sway the odds in his favor.

Deathstroke is also capable of using the environment to his advantage. Earlier in this post I provided some Batgirl scans in which Slade traps Cassandra Cain under burning debris by opening fire on the wooden pillar behind her, collapsing the ceiling. Has Chris ever managed to use the environment to his advantage against another skilled opponent? Slade has... more than once.

This is very relevant because Deathstroke very recently fought 300 men and he basically said it was one of the fights of his life, even while removing the bulk of them with one big bomb. Despite all his metahuman stats and statements made about how amazing he is, it took him about 35 years and nearly 900 appearances before he actually performed a feat on the magnitude that Chris does in every single level. People say that Deathstroke owns Chris because of his enhancements and all his comic book martial arts skill with pressure points and such, but I say, you either put up or shut up. Deathstroke is superior on paper yet he regularly operates on a much lower scale than Chris. Yes you can say he has interactions with the likes of Superman and such and has to outsmart him, but that's obviously a lot different than just outright fighting an army head-on, which is what Chris's job is.

I'm actually trying to avoid pulling feats from the continuity that the army feat was from. Regardless, what I think separates it from Chris's feats is the fact that he wasn't barricading himself in houses and scavenging for supplies; he was out in the open, fighting them head-on and gunning scores of them down even with impaired aim, using his agility to stay above them the whole time. Scans for voter's reference:

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Other than that, all he really said about the fight was that he felt alive afterwards, which doesn't even necessarily imply it was hard for him. And in regard to Slade regularly operating on a much lower scale than Chris, how do you figure? Chris fights numbers more often but it's not like the threats Slade faces are unimpressive or irrelevant. I would definitely rate Slade's interactions against Superman and so on higher than any of Chris's feats from what I've seen, although I'm not trying to rely on feats like that.

I say if Chris can land just two bullets of his assault rifle onto the unarmored portions of Slade's body, the fight is over. Slade can fight effectively through one bullet wound, but after two Chris would curbstomp him. I think that saying Slade can withstand any more than two bullet holes and still fight effectively would be wank, and frankly I think saying he can close this gap without taking even two rounds would also be wank. Or better yet, Chris can cripple Slade using a rocket launcher, which he's been able to tag blur-speed Tyrants with (which doesn't have the reflexes of Slade but it arguably moves faster and Chris tracked it easy).

In this case I hate to break it to you, but Deathstroke's healing factor can keep him in fighting condition through worse than two gunshots. Slade even once said under Chuck Dixon that he could get shot all day long and he wouldn't come any closer to being dead.

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Granted he wasn't being 100% literal but the point of the statement is still pretty clear. More recently under Christopher Priest he dove in front of gunfire to protect Rose, taking three bullets to the right side of his body, then got back up, landed a headshot on the shooter, and drove away on a stolen motorcycle. Rose even commented just seconds after he had killed the attacker that his wounds had already started closing, and his arm wasn't even disabled.

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These feats have been pulled from two separate decades, but I can grab more feats on this level from the time between them. If Chris is actually going to take Slade out with two bullets, they need to be very well placed meanwhile he's still not the easiest character to tag.

That's all for now. Really what you need to do is prove that Slade can even clear this gap, which would necessitate proving that he is faster than Wesker, Jill, and Alexia. Because gunfighting with Chris is just going to be a lost cause when he's more experienced at it, has better feats, and uses stronger firepower.

I don't necessarily need to prove he's faster than any of those three, just that he's better at not getting hit. Slade also presents a lot of threats Chris never encountered in any of those three characters; to sum up: he can block bullets with his sword, return fire while dodging bullets, use a gun and a sword at the same time, count Chris's shots and make use of his avoidance, gear, stealth, and environment. Good luck.

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#7 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18248 posts) - - Show Bio

.......T4V.

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#8 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by DanielDaRipper (5314 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#10 Posted by foxerdes (9966 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll pay you twenty bucks if you actually finish that debate.

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#11 Posted by The_Magister (13521 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Edited by Rac95 (4344 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please

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#13 Edited by tj849 (8569 posts) - - Show Bio

t4t

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#14 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio