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#1 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: ok, I won't get to this till tommorow. Till then.

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#4 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Sorry I'm late. All I do is work nowadays, and whenever I get a moment off I spend it sleeping. (I'm sure you can relate to that.)

So it should go without saying that I am a big fan of Resident Evil and think very highly of Chris Redfield's abilities. I know that I am the underdog here and everybody is probably thinking I'm a crazy fanboy for pitting him against someone like Ultimate Captain America, but I am actually a light fan of the Ultimate universe as well, and have read all of Ultimates 1, Ultimates 2, and Ultimate Captain America's own miniseries in preparation for this debate, and I've found that Chris actually makes a very good rival for Steve. All I ask is that everyone try to keep an open mind here while I explain my side, and maybe you might come away respecting Chris's abilities a bit more.

I'm going to keep things short and sweet here. Don't take my lack of content for a lack of effort, I'm just trying a different debating tactic here.

So Chris and Steve are very comparable. Strength and durability are even enough, but I edge speed in Chris's favor. Let's start with strength. Ultimate Captain America can be kind of inconsistent, although his high-end showings get a lot more exposure on the Vine than his low-end showings, like being defeated by a group of KKK members and restrained by shackles. Although all characters have their highs and lows, Chris included, so I don't hold that against Steve. I would say that taking both of their averages, Steve and Chris are almost exactly on par. Ultimate Cap's feats are a lot more well known on the Vine, so let's start with the more popular ones as a base, and then find something comparable that Chris was able to do.

This right here is Ultimate Cap's best strength feat.

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He was actually able to match Ultimate Spider-Man in a grapple. Although Ultimate Spider-Man was injured and fatigued, both physically and mentally, he's still seen as about a 9 tonner or so. Very impressive display on Cap's side.

Now here's something kind of similar; in Resident Evil 6, Chris was actually able to overpower and then lift the giant snake Illuzija.

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No exact weight is ever given for Illuzija, but it is clearly based off of the giant snake Yawn from RE1, and Yawn is stated to weigh 26,500 pounds. That's over 13 tons. Now it's worth mentioning that Chris technically lifted Illuzija from the midsection so he wasn't really handling all of its weight, but keep in mind Illuzija was actually bigger and stronger than Yawn.

Yawn
Yawn
Illuzija
Illuzija

Now what pushes this instance off the deep end, is the fact that lifting Illuzija isn't actually the feat here. You'll notice that Illuzija had wrapped itself around Chris and was constricting him, as snakes are known to do. THAT is what the QTE was for, breaking the constriction, NOT lifting it. When Chris lifted Illuzija, the QTE was already over, he just lifted Illuzija over his head without even thinking as a quick and effortless way to escape after breaking its constriction. Even if Chris only lifted half of Illuzija, at the most absolute lowball it's still a definite five ton feat, but it was done effortlessly. The actual hard part was breaking the constriction, and the fact that he succeeded is just ridiculous.

If a human finds themselves constricted, they're supposed to gradually unwrap the snake from the tail end. Just pulling at the snake to rip it off is completely useless and might actually cause more harm, but Chris managed to do it. That would actually take a superhuman amount of strength against a regular sized snake.

http://animals.mom.me/strong-coils-boa-constrictor-6639.html

This article discusses some facts on snake constriction in real life.

The constricting coils kill the prey by cardiac arrest, asphyxiation or, in the case of very large snakes, spinal fracture.

The highest constricting pressure recorded by the team, 25 pounds per square inch, was generated by a boa constrictor that was about 7 feet in total length. The primary variable in constriction pressure is the thickness of the snake; doubling the diameter of a snake increases its constriction pressure by a factor of 2.6.

Now these are the facts for real life snakes, but Illuzija is a giant that can smash up concrete and tunnel through the earth like air. Let's do some quick math, just to give an idea of how ridiculous it is for a supposedly non-enhanced human like Chris to do what he did.

The real life snake in the article is stated to be 7 feet long.
7 feet = 84 inches.
Snakes constrict at 25 pounds per square inch.
84 x 25 = 2,100, or slightly over one ton. And this is NOT proper math, I didn't account for square inches, so the snake in question is actually producing OVER 2,100 lbs of force.

Yawn is 40 feet long and Illuzija is bigger than Yawn. That's a completely different realm of strength compared to a real-life seven foot long snake. More importantly, that article states that the pressure would increase by a factor of 2.6 for every doubling of the snake's width; I'm not even going to bother on calculating the constriction force for Illuzija because it would just come out to something insane. These two feats are on the highest end for both characters, but if we just go exclusively by them, Chris will end up WAYY stronger than Ultimate Captain America. It's more like Chris should be trading blows with 616 Spider-Man, if he can break Illuzija's constriction through pure strength within a few seconds.

But like I said, every character has their highs and lows, so even though Chris's best feat is better than Cap's best feat, I do think that if we take their averages, they come out almost exactly on par. Some people think punching out Hulk is Steve's best feat, but that actually has big context to it that nobody ever brings up. The two main things being:

  1. Hulk was immediately back on his feet by the very next page and nearly killed Cap. And, more importantly,
  2. That was only the second time Bruce Banner ever transformed into Hulk, and his strength at the time had not advanced very much. Captain America himself stated during the battle that Hulk kept getting stronger with every second, but by the time Captain America encountered him, Hulk hadn't had much time to gain strength and was still largely street level for the most part.

Not that it isn't impressive. Just not as impressive as some would think at first glance. Nothing out of Chris's league. Let's take a look at the feat in question: Cap used a focused assault to select weak points in order to briefly drop the Hulk.

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At the time, Hulk was strong enough to overpower Giant Man, and rip off Iron Man's helmet.

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Neither of these feats are particularly amazing since neither Giant Man nor Iron Man had feats (Giant Man was kicked off of the Ultimates shortly after this so he never ends up getting any feats, and the arc right after this one opens up with Tony Stark presenting his brand new-and-improved armor, so no feats after this point can be counted). By virtue of sheer size, I guess we can say Giant Man is a 10-15 tonner, and that's probably consistent with Iron Man's armor at the time, so that's how strong Hulk is.

So it's definitely impressive on Cap's part, but let's take a look at Chris's feat: with a focused assault to select weak points, Chris is able to briefly drop Wesker.

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Wesker is nothing more than an unmutated Tyrant, which are strong enough to do crazy things like leap miles up in the air and forward in a single bound in order to latch onto an airborn plane, then rip its way through the steel cargo hold in order to reach its target. Claire found that the only way to kill it was to launch a giant cruise missile into it at point blank range, only for the Tyrant to catch the missile and wrestle with it for several seconds before finally being overpowered. And Wesker himself can literally walk off RPG blasts and a stack of steel beams falling onto his head from several stories up.

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Now both showings from Chris and Steve displayed a tremendous amount of striking power, but one thing to take into consideration is the fact that Cap had his shield and used it as his finishing move before tripping Hulk. So maybe Chris's feat required more raw muscle power?

One thing that I will say is that Steve's feat required more fighting skill, since Chris can only catch Wesker with that combo when Wesker is stunned.

So at the end of the day, we can go feat-for-feat with Chris and Steve's strength, but I'm going to be fair and just say they are even enough. This battle will come down to other factors.

Now on the topic of Hulk and Wesker, both of them have healing factors so even though they were damaged by Steve and Chris respectively, they were each back on their feet almost immediately after and proceeded to dish out a bit of a beating on both heroes. However, I think that if we analyze each individual beating and take a look at how effective they were, it'll be pretty clear that Chris is a lot more durable than Steve is.

Below are the full scans of Cap's fight with Hulk. After Steve drops him, Hulk gets up and rushes Steve, but he mostly just pushes him around and only delivers one or two actual strikes.

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A little bit later Hulk goes after Steve once again and Steve actually survives getting strangled, which is impressive.

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Now the thing is, even though Cap survived a beating by Hulk, he was in no condition for combat afterwards. The only fighting he did was kicking Bruce Banner in the face after he depowered. Let's take a look at what Cap himself had to say about his condition once Hulk was defeated.

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For obvious reasons, I can't really count this as a durability feat, since it was successful in taking Cap out of combat, and the whole point of durability feats is showing what kind of damage the character can take without being defeated. Now for comparison, let's take a look at how Chris stands up to Wesker's hits. If you think Wesker is any weaker than Ultimate Hulk was during arc 1 of the Ultimates, I refer you back to the above feats mentioned for Tyrants, as well as Wesker's own feats of putting his hands straight through reinforced steel with casual strikes.

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I'd like to point out that Wesker's attacks don't job to the protagonists. In CVX he had Claire completely helpless just after throwing her, yet in the same story Claire was survive hits from Tyrants. Now look at Jill, I actually counted how many times Wesker hit Chris and Jill in this scene, and realized for the first time that while Chris was getting the crap kicked out of him and kept coming back for more, Jill was hit... Just take a guess.

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.

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Jill was hit once. Weird huh? You never really notice it, but it's true. Although twice if you count the wall slam, but considering Jill was durable enough to survive the 300 foot plummet out the window onto solid rock and earth at the end of this scene, two-shotting her is still crazy power on Wesker's part. Yet Chris was beaten relentlessly throughout the whole scene and never even faltered, he kept coming back over and over, and at the end of it he still wasn't even seriously injured.

It's the same deal when Chris and Sheva fought Wesker. Chris takes the first hit and Sheva takes one immediately after. Then Chris comes back and keeps fighting Wesker for a little while, he tanks a few more hits but is barely even stunned, you never notice that during that whole time Sheva was still in the background struggling to stand back up after her first hit.

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It's clear that the developers were being very consistent with Wesker's power level in relation to the other protagonists; Chris really is the ONLY one who can actually stand up to him.

It goes even further; when Wesker strikes regular, untrained humans like Spencer, he doesn't just oneshot them, his hand actually goes straight through their bodies, and even powerful BOWs like Hunters and Chimeras are killed with just one hit. So even the fact that Jill and Claire and Sheva were able to survive the meager hits that they did is impressive and pretty superhuman, but then Chris comes along and is just in a whole different league. Again, I must stress the fact that Claire, Jill, and Sheva all have crazy durability feats in their own right, but Wesker reminds the player just how inferior they all really are compared to Chris.

And just in case anyone doubts that Wesker is just as strong as a Tyrant, here are scans of a Tyrant punching Chris three times in the gut and sending his body rocketing across the rooftop, hard enough to smash up a metal duct and indent into the concrete.

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So just to recap, Steve is unable to tank hits from a character like Hulk. After only a few seconds of getting pushed around, his body was broken, and although he was tough enough to soldier through without quitting, the fact remains that he was not in shape for further combat. Whereas we have Chris who can tank barrages of hits from Super Tyrants and martial arts combos and locks to select bodily points from Wesker, and literally be completely uninjured. Being completely unbiased, you tell me who's more durable.

Now speed is definitely the area where Chris takes the lead. In all of the material for Ultimate Cap that I've read, the character really is extremely short on speed feats. Like I said, I've read all of Ultimates 1, Ultimates 2, and Cap's own miniseries, and I seriously didn't notice any speed feats at all. From all the debates I've seen, I think Ultimate Cap has like, 1 pretty decent showing where he dodges AK fire from a computer targeting system as part of training, and then that's it.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Ultimate Captain America is slow. He's obviously a peak human, it just seems that speed is one area where the Super Soldier Serum lags behind a little bit. Now Chris on the other hand, despite his bulk, is no less speedy, either on his feet or in his head. Both of these characters fight in actual wars where they are getting shot at from all sides and never take a single bullet, which is enough in itself to prove their speed, but only Chris has displayed the reflexes to actually react to a bullet fired at him directly, and either sidestep it, duck underneath it, or even perform a barrel roll out of the way before it can reach him.

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Chris even has two feats of dodging projectiles far faster than bullets.

Chris manages to dive out the way of Alexia's blood splatter, which even Wesker was having a difficult time reacting to.

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Chris and Piers manage to react to and dodge two actual cruise missiles one after the other after they have gotten in range.

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So I think these showings prove that Chris's reflexes are at least on par with Captain America, and when I get into combat speed later you'll see that Chris's feats really are just superior. And in terms of actual raw speed, there is no debate. The two are either on par or Chris is faster. Chris possesses true super soldier speed to match his strength, at the end of RE5 right after his battle with Wesker, Chris was able to physically outrace a jet down the runway getting ready to take off, leaving Sheva, a bullet timer, completely in the dust, almost easily. I'm not 100% sure Ultimate Captain America could have done this.

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So I'll cut things short here, I think I've proven that Chris and Cap are operating at a pretty similar level of super soldier physicality, and I'm curious what your main argument will be for why Cap will win in the end. Personally I think that Chris is way more skilled with a gun and a knife than Cap is with a shield, but we'll get to that in time. Let me hear what you have to say.

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#6 Posted by AllStarSuperman (42655 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh yeah, T4V

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#7 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: it will be a few days friend. I am finishing up one CaV, doing two essays for school, and going out with the family. So i will get to this in a few days.

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#8 Posted by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio

Seems like a mismatch but I will reserve judgement on this one.

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#9 Posted by xtreme1 (4106 posts) - - Show Bio

I like how you photoshopped the characters into the village. Lol.

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#10 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Edited by PreCrisisBardock (8372 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

Online
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#12 Edited by Fetts (6229 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto *Reads the title* Oh nick, what have you gotten yourself into? :)

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#13 Posted by captain_batman_FTW (8905 posts) - - Show Bio

@xtreme1 said:

I like how you photoshopped the characters into the village. Lol.

lol, I actually didn't notice that. hahahhaahha

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#14 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the photo shop village. Very nice touch.

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#15 Posted by XioKenji (3372 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn , this is gonna be interesting as hell.

Gimme a tag.

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#16 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@fetts: Hey just you wait. Check out my debate with jashro Chris vs Cassandra Cain, or the Chris vs X-23 thread if you doubt his abilities. If you're interested than I'll give you a link.

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#17 Posted by NeonGameWave (19333 posts) - - Show Bio

I expect great things :)

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#18 Posted by Fetts (6229 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: heads up, I will have free time Tuesday to post. I been unusually busy this week. So I will get this started in eRnest then.

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#21 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

So it should go without saying that I am a big fan of Resident Evil and think very highly of Chris Redfield's abilities. I know that I am the underdog here and everybody is probably thinking I'm a crazy fanboy for pitting him against someone like Ultimate Captain America, but I am actually a light fan of the Ultimate universe as well, and have read all of Ultimates 1, Ultimates 2, and Ultimate Captain America's own miniseries in preparation for this debate, and I've found that Chris actually makes a very good rival for Steve. All I ask is that everyone try to keep an open mind here while I explain my side, and maybe you might come away respecting Chris's abilities a bit more.

Dont worry Nick, I just got done with Superman/Hulk vs invincible team, and I was the underdog there too. You and I dont represent characters becuase we are fandboys, but we like to think out characters deserve more respect than they get. ;)

Now lets get to this.

I'm going to keep things short and sweet here. Don't take my lack of content for a lack of effort, I'm just trying a different debating tactic here.

Lack of fudging content? Jeeze mate, there is alot here lol.

So Chris and Steve are very comparable. Strength and durability are even enough, but I edge speed in Chris's favor. Let's start with strength. Ultimate Captain America can be kind of inconsistent, although his high-end showings get a lot more exposure on the Vine than his low-end showings, like being defeated by a group of KKK members and restrained by shackles.

Im like one of the biggest fans of Ultimate Marvel... when was this? I never seen that before. Which is odd.

Although all characters have their highs and lows, Chris included, so I don't hold that against Steve. I would say that taking both of their averages, Steve and Chris are almost exactly on par. Ultimate Cap's feats are a lot more well known on the Vine, so let's start with the more popular ones as a base, and then find something comparable that Chris was able to do.

This right here is Ultimate Cap's best strength feat.

He was actually able to match Ultimate Spider-Man in a grapple. Although Ultimate Spider-Man was injured and fatigued, both physically and mentally, he's still seen as about a 9 tonner or so. Very impressive display on Cap's side.

Cap best strength feat indeed. I agree. he is a 5 toner by consistent feats though.

Now here's something kind of similar; in Resident Evil 6, Chris was actually able to overpower and then lift the giant snake Illuzija.

No exact weight is ever given for Illuzija, but it is clearly based off of the giant snake Yawn from RE1, and Yawn is stated to weigh 26,500 pounds. That's over 13 tons. Now it's worth mentioning that Chris technically lifted Illuzija from the midsection so he wasn't really handling all of its weight, but keep in mind Illuzija was actually bigger and stronger than Yawn.

Now what pushes this instance off the deep end, is the fact that lifting Illuzija isn't actually the feat here. You'll notice that Illuzija had wrapped itself around Chris and was constricting him, as snakes are known to do. THAT is what the QTE was for, breaking the constriction, NOT lifting it. When Chris lifted Illuzija, the QTE was already over, he just lifted Illuzija over his head without even thinking as a quick and effortless way to escape after breaking its constriction. Even if Chris only lifted half of Illuzija, at the most absolute lowball it's still a definite five ton feat, but it was done effortlessly. The actual hard part was breaking the constriction, and the fact that he succeeded is just ridiculous.

If a human finds themselves constricted, they're supposed to gradually unwrap the snake from the tail end. Just pulling at the snake to rip it off is completely useless and might actually cause more harm, but Chris managed to do it. That would actually take a superhuman amount of strength against a regular sized snake.

http://animals.mom.me/strong-coils-boa-constrictor-6639.html

This article discusses some facts on snake constriction in real life.

The constricting coils kill the prey by cardiac arrest, asphyxiation or, in the case of very large snakes, spinal fracture.

The highest constricting pressure recorded by the team, 25 pounds per square inch, was generated by a boa constrictor that was about 7 feet in total length. The primary variable in constriction pressure is the thickness of the snake; doubling the diameter of a snake increases its constriction pressure by a factor of 2.6.

Now these are the facts for real life snakes, but Illuzija is a giant that can smash up concrete and tunnel through the earth like air. Let's do some quick math, just to give an idea of how ridiculous it is for a supposedly non-enhanced human like Chris to do what he did.

The real life snake in the article is stated to be 7 feet long.

7 feet = 84 inches.

Snakes constrict at 25 pounds per square inch.

84 x 25 = 2,100, or slightly over one ton. And this is NOT proper math, I didn't account for square inches, so the snake in question is actually producing OVER 2,100 lbs of force.

Yawn is 40 feet long and Illuzija is bigger than Yawn. That's a completely different realm of strength compared to a real-life seven foot long snake. More importantly, that article states that the pressure would increase by a factor of 2.6 for every doubling of the snake's width; I'm not even going to bother on calculating the constriction force for Illuzija because it would just come out to something insane. These two feats are on the highest end for both characters, but if we just go exclusively by them, Chris will end up WAYY stronger than Ultimate Captain America. It's more like Chris should be trading blows with 616 Spider-Man, if he can break Illuzija's constriction through pure strength within a few seconds.

OK. That is a lot, and pretty impressive work as far as breaking it down. Cap has some good ones himself.

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1) Smashing Tigra so hard to shatter a solid stone column.

2) Lifting a car as well a much heavier lair of concrete and solid earth in a close to 5 ton feat.

3) Stalemates Peter Parker who is a casual 6 toner by bios, maxes at 9 tons. You can see both seen struggling to hold the other like you shown.

4) Catches a 5+ ton falling tree in mid fall.

5) Catches Valkyries fist, even though she is Asgardian in strength, and she has block blows from a blood lusted Thor with no problem.

6) Blocks a fatal attack by Zarda , who is Hyperion's equal in the Supreme verse. Unlike 616 Steve's shield, 1610 Steve's shield does not disperse kinetic force, its all Caps muscles and strength hold against that blow.

So yes, he is a casual 5+ toner. More so in feats than Chris to my knowledge.

But like I said, every character has their highs and lows, so even though Chris's best feat is better than Cap's best feat, I do think that if we take their averages, they come out almost exactly on par. Some people think punching out Hulk is Steve's best feat, but that actually has big context to it that nobody ever brings up. The two main things being:

  1. Hulk was immediately back on his feet by the very next page and nearly killed Cap. And, more importantly,
  2. That was only the second time Bruce Banner ever transformed into Hulk, and his strength at the time had not advanced very much. Captain America himself stated during the battle that Hulk kept getting stronger with every second, but by the time Captain America encountered him, Hulk hadn't had much time to gain strength and was still largely street level for the most part.

Not that it isn't impressive. Just not as impressive as some would think at first glance. Nothing out of Chris's league. Let's take a look at the feat in question: Cap used a focused assault to select weak points in order to briefly drop the Hulk.

its very impressive. However, there is no statement that Hulk's second transformation is weaker than the 5th, 8th, 100th transformation. His first Transformation was weaker though, but that was done with Hulk formula alone. The second transformation, and all others, was a combination of Hulk formula mix with Super Soldier blood. Thats all the context to that. as for getting back on his feat, he was still down, and out long enough for some conversation, and for Cap to get the syringe ready. It was a incredible feat of striking power, and skill. Striking power is a major factor, and very consistent for Ultimate Cap. The reason Hulk feat is valid is because Cap future documented striking feats which I can get too later.

At the time, Hulk was strong enough to overpower Giant Man, and rip off Iron Man's helmet.

Neither of these feats are particularly amazing since neither Giant Man nor Iron Man had feats (Giant Man was kicked off of the Ultimates shortly after this so henever ends up getting any feats, and the arc right after this one opens up with Tony Stark presenting his brand new-and-improved armor, so no feats after this point can be counted). By virtue of sheer size, I guess we can say Giant Man is a 10-15 tonner, and that's probably consistent with Iron Man's armor at the time, so that's how strong Hulk is.

Im going to stop ya here mate. First off, that armor had many feats. it was the same Iron Man armor through Ultimates 1, Ultimates 2, Ultimate Secrete, Ultimate Nightmare, Ultimate Armor Wars, Ultimate War, and Ultimate Six story lines. That is over 50 comics of feats my friend of the same armor before he upgrades it.

Hulk rip through that armor like tin foil. There is nothing (10-15) ton about that armor and the feats it has. Sure it had little feats in the begining, but that does not change the fact that same armor has incredible feats in the 1000+ ton range.

So it's definitely impressive on Cap's part, but let's take a look at Chris's feat: with a focused assault to select weak points, Chris is able to briefly drop Wesker.

Wesker is nothing more than an unmutated Tyrant, which are strong enough to do crazy things like leap miles up in the air and forward in a single bound in order to latch onto an airborn plane, then rip its way through the steel cargo hold in order to reach its target. Claire found that the only way to kill it was to launch a giant cruise missile into it at point blank range, only for the Tyrant to catch the missile and wrestle with it for several seconds before finally being overpowered. And Wesker himself can literally walk off RPG blasts and a stack of steel beams falling onto his head from several stories up.

Now both showings from Chris and Steve displayed a tremendous amount of striking power, but one thing to take into consideration is the fact that Cap had his shield and used it as his finishing move before tripping Hulk. So maybe Chris's feat required more raw muscle power?

Tyrants are impressive, but this is the first post, and I rather not give away Caps best feats, but if you want to attempt to say Chris has more striking power, then that is wrong.

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1) Cap KOes Juggernaut with a head bash. This is after Juggernaut wailed on Steve for a time.

2) Cap one shots Juggernaut before with a kick to the head.

3) Cap strength and shield busted Warmachine into a KO in 5 seconds flat.

4) Putting down Hulk as you shown already. We discussed this.

Unless Chris has shown this level of strength in lifting and striking consistently, Im not sure they can be seen as close.

One thing that I will say is that Steve's feat required more fighting skill, since Chris can only catch Wesker with that combo when Wesker is stunned.

One could argue all the striking feats is a combination of strength and skill.

So at the end of the day, we can go feat-for-feat with Chris and Steve's strength, but I'm going to be fair and just say they are even enough. This battle will come down to other factors.

IMO the durability of Cap will likely be the hardest thing for Chris to get past. Same for skill/smarts in Cap's corner.

Now on the topic of Hulk and Wesker, both of them have healing factors so even though they were damaged by Steve and Chris respectively, they were each back on their feet almost immediately after and proceeded to dish out a bit of a beating on both heroes. However, I think that if we analyze each individual beating and take a look at how effective they were, it'll be pretty clear that Chris is a lot more durable than Steve is.

Below are the full scans of Cap's fight with Hulk. After Steve drops him, Hulk gets up and rushes Steve, but he mostly just pushes him around and only delivers one or two actual strikes.

A little bit later Hulk goes after Steve once again and Steve actually survives getting strangled, which is impressive.

Now the thing is, even though Cap survived a beating by Hulk, he was in no condition for combat afterwards. The only fighting he did was kicking Bruce Banner in the face after he depowered. Let's take a look at what Cap himself had to say about his condition once Hulk was defeated.

For obvious reasons, I can't really count this as a durability feat, since it was successful in taking Cap out of combat, and the whole point of durability feats is showing what kind of damage the character can take without being defeated.

Im not sure how you think Cap was "taken out" as your putting it. Ultimate Hulk by feats would tear apart 20 Tyrants easy, and Cap took the angry beating from Hulk, and was still standing proud fine with only broken ribs and arm. He even casually states its nothing. Then there is the TONS of other Durability feats Cap has that trumps Chris by miles.

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Captain America suffered no physical damage from this Iron man slam. He was KOed, but the tons of tranqs pumped in him played a role for sure.

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Ultimate Cap slammed by a charging Warmachine through a city bridge, and is not KO at all. He was still fighting, and had no damage to him.

I have more feats, but these two alone are enough for cap to get the win in this category.

Now for comparison, let's take a look at how Chris stands up to Wesker's hits. If you think Wesker is any weaker than Ultimate Hulk was during arc 1 of the Ultimates, I refer you back to the above feats mentioned for Tyrants, as well as Wesker's own feats of putting his hands straight through reinforced steel with casual strikes.

I'd like to point out that Wesker's attacks don't job to the protagonists. In CVX he had Claire completely helpless just after throwing her, yet in the same story Claire was survive hits from Tyrants. Now look at Jill, I actually counted how many times Wesker hit Chris and Jill in this scene, and realized for the first time that while Chris was getting the crap kicked out of him and kept coming back for more, Jill was hit... Just take a guess.

I already stated, there is nothing "weak" about Hulk in Ultimates 1 all the way to Secrete War that is going on now.

Jill was hit once. Weird huh? You never really notice it, but it's true. Although twice if you count the wall slam, but considering Jill was durable enough to survive the 300 foot plummet out the window onto solid rock and earth at the end of this scene, two-shotting her is still crazy power on Wesker's part. Yet Chris was beaten relentlessly throughout the whole scene and never even faltered, he kept coming back over and over, and at the end of it he still wasn't even seriously injured.

It's the same deal when Chris and Sheva fought Wesker. Chris takes the first hit and Sheva takes one immediately after. Then Chris comes back and keeps fighting Wesker for a little while, he tanks a few more hits but is barely even stunned, you never notice that during that whole time Sheva was still in the background struggling to stand back up after her first hit.

It's clear that the developers were being very consistent with Wesker's power level in relation to the other protagonists; Chris really is the ONLY one who can actually stand up to him.

It goes even further; when Wesker strikes regular, untrained humans like Spencer, he doesn't just oneshot them, his hand actually goes straight through their bodies, and even powerful BOWs like Hunters and Chimeras are killed with just one hit. So even the fact that Jill and Claire and Sheva were able to survive the meager hits that they did is impressive and pretty superhuman, but then Chris comes along and is just in a whole different league. Again, I must stress the fact that Claire, Jill, and Sheva all have crazy durability feats in their own right, but Wesker reminds the player just how inferior they all really are compared to Chris.

None of that trumps what I showed, much less what I have yet to show.

And just in case anyone doubts that Wesker is just as strong as a Tyrant, here are scans of a Tyrant punching Chris three times in the gut and sending his body rocketing across the rooftop, hard enough to smash up a metal duct and indent into the concrete.

that last feat is more impressive than any shown in the game. Whats that from anyway?

So just to recap, Steve is unable to tank hits from a character like Hulk. After only a few seconds of getting pushed around, his body was broken, and although he was tough enough to soldier through without quitting, the fact remains that he was not in shape for further combat. Whereas we have Chris who can tank barrages of hits from Super Tyrants and martial arts combos and locks to select bodily points from Wesker, and literally be completely uninjured. Being completely unbiased, you tell me who's more durable.

Steve took bigger hits as shown already with no lasting damage, and even still fighting on. I have more of those as well.

Now speed is definitely the area where Chris takes the lead. In all of the material for Ultimate Cap that I've read, the character really is extremely short on speed feats. Like I said, I've read all of Ultimates 1, Ultimates 2, and Cap's own miniseries, and I seriously didn't notice any speed feats at all. From all the debates I've seen, I think Ultimate Cap has like, 1 pretty decent showing where he dodges AK fire from a computer targeting system as part of training, and then that's it.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Ultimate Captain America is slow. He's obviously a peak human, it just seems that speed is one area where the Super Soldier Serum lags behind a little bit. Now Chris on the other hand, despite his bulk, is no less speedy, either on his feet or in his head. Both of these characters fight in actual wars where they are getting shot at from all sides and never take a single bullet, which is enough in itself to prove their speed, but only Chris has displayed the reflexes to actually react to a bullet fired at him directly, and either sidestep it, duck underneath it, or even perform a barrel roll out of the way before it can reach him.

Chris even has two feats of dodging projectiles far faster than bullets.

Chris manages to dive out the way of Alexia's blood splatter, which even Wesker was having a difficult time reacting to.

Chris and Piers manage to react to and dodge two actual cruise missiles one after the other after they have gotten in range.

Pretty good. Cap has a few speed feats that strike me as better though. These few feats match alone.

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1) Woozy and out of it, he blitzes Nick Fury, and deflects Tranqs at the same time.

2) Jumping and running through mass gunfire of soldiers.

3) computer targeting AK by Tony stark can only nick his arm on full auto.

4) Moondragon clone assassins all train as the best assassins in the world fire mass gunfire at Steve to no avail.

5) Ultimate Hawkeye of all people fire his bullet tranqs well before Steve could get his shield up. Yet Steve does get his shield around, and redirects the tranq back at Clint.

All this is far superior IMO.

So I think these showings prove that Chris's reflexes are at least on par with Captain America, and when I get into combat speed later you'll see that Chris's feats really are just superior. And in terms of actual raw speed, there is no debate. The two are either on par or Chris is faster. Chris possesses true super soldier speed to match his strength, at the end of RE5 right after his battle with Wesker, Chris was able to physically outrace a jet down the runway getting ready to take off, leaving Sheva, a bullet timer, completely in the dust, almost easily. I'm not 100% sure Ultimate Captain America could have done this.

Ok, lets see what you have. I dont see anything faster of Chris at all. Even your feat of the runway jeet, that is nothing really OMG about depending on the take off speed of certain jets. Considering caps near unlimited stamina, and his outpacing computer targeting AK on full auto, Im not seeing Cap lose a race.

So I'll cut things short here, I think I've proven that Chris and Cap are operating at a pretty similar level of super soldier physicality, and I'm curious what your main argument will be for why Cap will win in the end. Personally I think that Chris is way more skilled with a gun and a knife than Cap is with a shield, but we'll get to that in time. Let me hear what you have to say.

You better bring a bit more consistent higher end feats if we are going to find the truth.

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#24 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz:

*On Cap being beaten by random KKK members* Im like one of the biggest fans of Ultimate Marvel... when was this? I never seen that before. Which is odd.

It was Ultimates 2 Annual #1. Arnim Zola takes Cap's shield and then Steve is overrun and captured by KKK members. I'll post the scans for you since you're curious, but to be clear, I'm not trying to lowball Steve or judge him by this one showing, I know it was WIS. I was only bringing it up to reflect on how all characters have inconsistencies, but if we take out an AVERAGE and judge them by that, Chris and Cap come out looking almost completely on par.

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Lack of fudging content? Jeeze mate, there is alot here lol.

You're right, it didn't really go as smoothly as I planned lol. From here on I think the best way to go about comparing Chris to Steve and proving why Chris can keep up would be to address things one category at a time.

I. Strength:

Cap best strength feat indeed. I agree. he is a 5 toner by consistent feats though.

I disagree. He's stronger than that. And so is Chris.

*On breaking Illuzija's constriction* OK. That is a lot, and pretty impressive work as far as breaking it down.

Alright good, thank you. I made a lot of edits to that section because I wasn't sure if I was explaining things properly. Just to reiterate that is literally a Spider-Man level feat Chris performed, I would put it into tons but then it'd be too ridiculous for people to accept. (It's a 20 ton feat at the absolute lowest) Cap has a lot of excellent feats as you showed, but I do not think any of them are quite as insane as this one feat for Chris, and Chris still has lesser showings that are on par with those for Cap.

1) Smashing Tigra so hard to shatter a solid stone column.

I should point out that Steve smashed Tigra with his shield and then pushed him straight into the column. If Cap just punched Tigra and sent him flying hard enough to smash the column, that would be an awesome feat of pure striking power, but with Steve literally pushing Tigra directly against the column it becomes a little less impressive. It isn't anything special to Chris since Chris was able to smash a much thicker stone column pretty casually when it got in the way of a puzzle during RE5.

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So, at best, Chris and Steve are still on par in terms of strength.

2) Lifting a car as well a much heavier lair of concrete and solid earth in a close to 5 ton feat.

I do a lot of work with asphalt and that layer probably weighs close to 5 tons on its own, let alone the car on top. Like I said, Ultimate Cap is a LOT stronger than people give him credit for, and people already give him a lot of credit to begin with.

However the same goes for Chris, which is why I wanted to pit these two against each other. Lifting that car + layer of asphalt and earth is not beyond Chris's ability to replicate, even on average considering he's able to do things like this.

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The Ogroman is a building-sized giant monster so strong that it took an airstrike directly to its exposed organs in order to kill it. Its flesh was like metal, concentrated APC fire could hurt it, but not actually break the skin. Its only weakness was the aforementioned exposed organs, but that was resolved by installing a giant metal plug to keep the organs stuffed inside. And yet here is Chris, ripping the Ogroman's flesh apart just as a side effect of grabbing the plug and forcibly pulling the giant organ out. That huge mass of flesh and muscle had to at least weigh a few thousand pounds on its own plus the solid metal plug adding extra weight, admittedly the organ doesn't look quite as heavy as the layer of asphalt/dirt that Cap lifted, nor is the plug quite as heavy as the car, but keep in mind the whole thing was rooted inside the Ogroman's body and closed around the super strong flesh. Chris wasn't just lifting everything like Cap did, he had to forcibly rip it through a very dense material. Just lifting that mass would be impressive on its own, and likewise breaking the Ogroman's dense hide with bare hands would be impressive, but since Chris did them both at the same time... I would say the feat is just barely on par with Steve.

3) Stalemates Peter Parker who is a casual 6 toner by bios, maxes at 9 tons. You can see both seen struggling to hold the other like you shown.

Agreed. A lot of people actually use this as a low showing and say that it proves Ult. Cap can't match Spider-Man in a grapple, and I just don't get it. They are both clearly at a stalemate, with the art depicting them both shaking from the strain and driving each other into the dirt. Neither one of them is holding back. Granted, Spider-Man was already injured and fatigued beforehand, but this is still an excellent feat for Cap. However, it is still surpassed by Chris breaking Illuzija's constriction. Illuzija was more than just a giant snake, it was enhanced by the C-Virus and was strong enough to smash through giant concrete walls, eat up gunfire, and burrow through the Earth as if it was just air. And the act of constricting would have enhanced the snake's power exponentially, and yet Chris broke it through sheer strength. Cap doesn't have any feats as quantifiably insane as this one.

4) Catches a 5+ ton falling tree in mid fall.

Yeah, you can see how big the trees are in the first few panels when one of them crushes a truck. 5 tons sounds about right, great feat for Cap. But at the risk of sounding repetitive, it still does not put Steve above Chris. Not when Chris has the strength to roll a gigantic 25 ton boulder with his bare hands.

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All Steve did was catch the tree. Chris actually moved this boulder. People lowball this feat way too much just because the boulder was vaguely-circle shaped. Yeah, so what? As if that completely nullifies the weight? Rolling something requires lifting it to a degree, especially when the boulder wasn't anywhere close to perfectly round and had many bumps that Chris needed to push it over. This, along with the Illuzija showing, are Chris's two highest end strength feats (he has three others of similar caliber but they are arguably more durability oriented), and they blow most of Cap's feats out of the water. So again, the most Steve can hope for is being on par with Chris's strength.

5) Catches Valkyries fist, even though she is Asgardian in strength, and she has block blows from a blood lusted Thor with no problem.

6) Blocks a fatal attack by Zarda , who is Hyperion's equal in the Supreme verse. Unlike 616 Steve's shield, 1610 Steve's shield does not disperse kinetic force, its all Caps muscles and strength hold against that blow.

Can you source these two scans? It looks like Valkyrie might not have been going full force against Steve, since she was only interested in Thor and ended up just leaving right after Steve caught her blow. As for Zarda, Cap DID use his shield to block that attack. Just because it was never explicitly stated in the Ultimate universe that Cap's shield absorbs kinetic force, I don't think that means it doesn't, that's a pretty signature ability of the shield. That's like saying Ultimate Cap isn't Steve Rogers just because it was never stated (and yes that WAS stated, but you get my point).

Regardless, Zarda didn't even punch Steve, she slashed him with her sword. If it was a straight punch the feat would be impressive, but a horizontal sword slash isn't going to have much force in it anyway, not to mention Zarda wasn't even aiming at Steve. That's how he was able to deflect it off his shield like that. I don't think the scan necessarily puts Steve on par with Hyperion or anything.

its very impressive. However, there is no statement that Hulk's second transformation is weaker than the 5th, 8th, 100th transformation. His first Transformation was weaker though, but that was done with Hulk formula alone. The second transformation, and all others, was a combination of Hulk formula mix with Super Soldier blood. Thats all the context to that. as for getting back on his feat, he was still down, and out long enough for some conversation, and for Cap to get the syringe ready.

The reason Hulk was weaker when he fought Captain America is because it was explicitly stated that Hulk kept getting stronger the more the Ultimates antagonized him. AKA "The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets!"

Hence Giant Man was able to briefly restrain him at the start of the battle, but then Hulk got angry and broke free, then Hulk fought Iron Man and probably got a little stronger again, but then Janet showed him her breasts and he became happy, and THEN he and Cap fought, with Cap taking the initial advantage until Hulk once again got angry, at which point he stood up and started manhandling Cap, and at that point there was nothing Cap could do because Hulk was stronger.

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Basically, Cap putting down Hulk is unquantifiable because Hulk's power fluctuated constantly throughout the battle. I already countered this feat with Chris putting Wesker on his back, and Wesker definitely has power comparable to what Hulk had at that specific moment when Cap fought him. Your claim that Tyrants only have 20 ton strength doesn't make any sense in light of the feats I mentioned; reaching an airborne plane by jumping when the plane has already had several entire minutes to get far away from you, and wrestling with a cruise missile aren't 20 ton feats. In Damnation a Tyrant was even able to lift a tank. These monsters are closer to 50-60 tons, not 20.

But disregard that, because I just remembered something to one-up myself. Forget about Chris knocking out regular Wesker, because at the end of the game Chris was actually able to physically restrain Uroboros Wesker and damage him with regular punches.

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There are a few factors which make this feat even more ridiculous than the boulder and Illuzija feat, and also more impressive than any of Ult. Cap's showings in terms of both strength and durability.

  1. Chris and Wesker were fighting inside of an active volcano. Now that might be no problem for Wesker, but for a regular human like Chris, every breath of those volcanic fumes should have been like breathing in shards of glass. Chris and Sheva's entire bodies should have been fried the instant they landed in that volcano, yet not only are they surviving, but they are even breathing and continuing to fight with no problem.
  2. Chris was already injured beforehand, from the plane crashing into the volcano in the first place at high speeds from hundreds of feet in the air (which is a good showing on its own). This is reflected in-game by the fact that regardless of the player's health, Chris will be stuck in the 'caution' or 'danger' animation until the actual fight with Wesker begins.
  3. Wesker already had Tyrant level strength to begin with, but Uroboros Wesker was a legitimate 100 tonner. Check out the three minute mark in the above video where he brings down an entire cliffside just by attacking Sheva.
  4. The Uroboros virus works by attempting to bond to the host, but only less than 1% of the human race has appropriate DNA for that to work. If the virus fails it will instead mutate every cell in the host's body into those worm-line tentacles that surround Wesker's body, and they will spread infinitely in an attempt to assimilate any biological material they come across. Chris was literally right on top of Wesker and being killed by Uroboros actively as he was holding Wesker back; it's actually impossible to complete this QTE unless you have full health. Now Uroboros is so powerful that it can assimilate close to 100 superhuman Majini in less than 1 minute, yet Chris in this scene is able to resist it on his own for that same amount of time, while simultaneously fighting. THAT is called conviction.

Every instance of Cap fighting a 100 tonner has some context to it. Hulk? There's no proof that he was a 100 tonner yet. Juggernaut? Already defeated by a rampaging dinosaur and he didn't have his helmet on, all Cap did was deliver the final blow. Abomination? Featless and much weaker than Hulk at the time when he smashed Cap, was also likely holding back because he wasn't supposed to kill Cap at that time.

Chris on the other hand, has a legitimate feat against Uroboros Wesker, and also a few other comparable showings against other creatures that we'll get into as we go along.

*On Im going to stop ya here mate. First off, that armor had many feats. it was the same Iron Man armor through Ultimates 1, Ultimates 2, Ultimate Secrete, Ultimate Nightmare, Ultimate Armor Wars, Ultimate War, and Ultimate Six story lines. That is over 50 comics of feats my friend of the same armor before he upgrades it.

Hulk rip through that armor like tin foil. There is nothing (10-15) ton about that armor and the feats it has. Sure it had little feats in the begining, but that does not change the fact that same armor has incredible feats in the 1000+ ton range.

Actually Tony's armor was already malfunctioning during the Hulk battle itself, and afterwards he called it a piece of junk or something like that and mentioned how it was always letting him down, so he upgraded it sometime during the second arc. The armor that Hulk beat was featless and not even working properly.

Now with all that said, I DO still respect Ultimate Captain America's abilities a LOT and I do believe that they should be portrayed as equals in terms of strength and durability. Just one final note on strength before we move on, to prove that Chris really does have a counter for almost every one of Cap's feats, despite not nearly as many appearances:

3) Cap strength and shield busted Warmachine into a KO in 5 seconds flat.

Well Cap did have his shield there. It happened off-screen so I imagine the shield played a big role, jamming it in the joints and stuff to disassemble War Machine. Cap's shield does give him tremendous damage output far exceeding Chris's muscles, but Chris has his own weapons to counter that so it's a separate topic. I'm just saying, in terms of sheer strength the two are likely equal.

I'm not sure how War Machine compares to J'avo, but it might be worth mentioning since it's stated that "bullets don't even phase them" and they can regenerate an entire skull in a couple seconds, and that's just their human forms, yet Chris can literally rip their mutated forms to shreds and then beat them to death with their own severed limbs.

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Again, I'm not sure how War Machine compares to J'avo. If I had to hazard a guess I would say he probably far exceeds them, but still, I think Chris's ability to rip superhumans apart is worth mentioning on its own as a feat of strength, since disassembling War Machine (and also knocking out Hulk to an extent) are more about Cap's damage output with the shield rather than raw strength. (We'll address damage output a little later)

II. Durability:

Im not sure how you think Cap was "taken out" as your putting it. Ultimate Hulk by feats would tear apart 20 Tyrants easy, and Cap took the angry beating from Hulk, and was still standing proud fine with only broken ribs and arm. He even casually states its nothing. Then there is the TONS of other Durability feats Cap has that trumps Chris by miles.

He WAS taken out. Not knocked unconscious, but his broken bones and wounds prevented him from entering combat again, from that point on he stayed on the sidelines and just coordinated everyone. Therefore, I can't count it as a feat of durability since it succeeded in taking Cap out of the fight.

Captain America suffered no physical damage from this Iron man slam. He was KOed, but the tons of tranqs pumped in him played a role for sure.

Again, the fact that Cap was KOd means this is not a feat of durability. The writer had Cap fail, as in it wasn't meant to be an indication of his power. The fact that he survived doesn't matter, that's just what the plot dictated. By comparison, the only time throughout the entire RE series where Chris was knocked out, was in the very first game, and not by blunt force, but when he was poisoned by Yawn. Does Cap carry any poisons on him? Because if not, he will find it very very difficult to knock Chris out for good.

Ultimate Cap slammed by a charging Warmachine through a city bridge, and is not KO at all. He was still fighting, and had no damage to him.

Now this blows all of Chris's feats out of the water. Do you think you could you post the page right before?

None of that trumps what I showed, much less what I have yet to show.

What are you talking about? Chris taking 6, 7, or as many as 8 hits from Wesker all in one battle and remaining largely unfazed by the end of it whereas characters like Jill, Claire, and Sheva who all have superhuman durability in their own right are oneshotted isn't impressive? The fact that what would normally be seen as weak, fleshy points on the human body like the kidneys or cheek are harder than tempered steel on Chris isn't enough to match Ultimate Cap?

Steve isn't all 100 tonners and huge explosions you know. I don't believe either Nuke or Red Skull have as much damage output as Chris, and they put Steve down pretty easily. Chris's advantage here is that he's a lot more consistent than Cap. Whereas Cap has his highs and his lows and than an average in between, Chris truly is all about tanking hits from Wesker and Tyrants and huge explosions, and he has almost no low showings to offset it.

I mean think of it this way. One of Ultimate Cap's trademarks of durability is his ability to jump from helicopters and airplanes without a parachute, and fall from buildings unharmed. Jill fell a similar distance to any leap Cap has ever taken when she tackled Wesker out of the window of the Spencer Estate; she survived that and yet in the same battle she was oneshotted by Wesker. I hate to tell ya this, but if Ultimate Cap fought Wesker, between Wesker's superhuman stats and honed martial arts precision, Steve wouldn't last very long. The absolute best he could hope to do... is last just as long as Chris does.

Hence the two are on par.

Steve took bigger hits as shown already with no lasting damage, and even still fighting on. I have more of those as well.

Like what? I've seen Ultimate Cap's feats, and besides that War Machine scan which you just posted, he doesn't seem to be as massively dominant to Chris as you are implying.

I mean even back in the original Resident Evil game, Chris was portrayed as the strong guy of the group with superhuman durability. You're saying that the section of the game where he was ensnared by the giant Plant 42 and crushed by its tentacles while having his blood drained by poison suckers wasn't impressive? Chris was literally struggling against the vines, continuously, long enough for Rebecca to frantically around the dormitories and crack the code to the formula for V-Jolt, the only known poison to effect Plant 42, and then spend time actually concocting the complex chemical serum, and then run to the ALL THE WAY opposite side of the dormitories, down into the basement, and finally locate Plant 42's roots where she was able to administer the V-Jolt. That entire time Chris was enduring the torture non-stop, from a giant monster plant that by virtue of sheer size had to be at least a 20 tonner.

Captain America beat up Giant Man, but if Giant Man managed to grab him during that fight, could Steve had endured just being squeezed to death for like 15 minutes straight? Non-stop, no breaks, nothing else but constantly being squeezed? Would Captain America have the endurance to last under that strain? I mean even Hulk had a hard enough time breaking free from Giant Man's grasp, and even though he was weakened at the time, it's worth noting that Giant Man easily restrained and knocked out Captain America right after he thawed from the ice. So, even at his best, could Cap last under that strain? Chris did.

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I mean yeah it isn't very cinematic... but a feat is a feat. And this was way before Chris buffed up in RE5. After over 10 years of intensive weight training, Chris's physical limits increased exponentially. Currently he would probably be strong enough to just rip Plant 42 off him; going by how they are portrayed in Ultimates, I can't say the same if Steve was grabbed by Giant Man.

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III. Speed/Skill:

1) Woozy and out of it, he blitzes Nick Fury, and deflects Tranqs at the same time.

The last thing SHIELD wanted was to injure Captain America when they just thawed him from the ice. He attacked by complete surprise and didn't react to any projectiles directly. Definitely an over looked feat for Ult. Cap but it isn't on par with Chris's speed.

2) Jumping and running through mass gunfire of soldiers.

4) Moondragon clone assassins all train as the best assassins in the world fire mass gunfire at Steve to no avail.

I addressed this in my first post, allow me to restate:

Both of these characters fight in actual wars where they are getting shot at from all sides and never take a single bullet, which is enough in itself to prove their speed, but only Chris has displayed the reflexes to actually react to a bullet fired at him directly, and either sidestep it, duck underneath it, or even perform a barrel roll out of the way before it can reach him.

I can post any section of a random walkthrough of RE6 and we'll see Chris doing the same thing that Ultimate Cap is doing in those scans you posted.

3) computer targeting AK by Tony stark can only nick his arm on full auto.

Definitely Cap's best feat, but unfortunately it is still aim dodging and a mere training exercise. I already showed Chris reacting to projectiles far faster than AK fire after they were fired, on not one but TWO occasions.

Chris dodges Alexia's blood splatter with a bum knee when even Wesker was having a hard time reacting to it
Chris dodges Alexia's blood splatter with a bum knee when even Wesker was having a hard time reacting to it
Chris and Piers are fast enough to dodge not one but TWO cruise missiles one after the other
Chris and Piers are fast enough to dodge not one but TWO cruise missiles one after the other

I mean if you really look at that scan of Cap dodging the AK, the bullets are just kinda going everywhere across the floor and nowhere near Cap to begin with. So it isn't as good as the feats I already posted for Chris.

5) Ultimate Hawkeye of all people fire his bullet tranqs well before Steve could get his shield up. Yet Steve does get his shield around, and redirects the tranq back at Clint.

Hawkeye's accuracy doesn't make the projectiles any faster, and reacting to tranquilizers isn't exactly top tier. Not as impressive as several instances of Chris sidestepping bullets from close range.

Even if I played devil's advocate and said that the feats for Chris and Steve thus far are on par, the problem is that you've already exhausted the supply of speed feats for Ultimate Captain America. Whereas I really haven't even gotten started yet for Chris.

Let's take a look at combat speed, a concept near-nonexistent in Ultimate Cap's world. Whereas Chris Redfield is actually a top tier among peak humans.

Observe as he intercepts a Licker in mid-pounce with an uppercut, sending it backwards and straight onto its back where he is then able to follow up with a heart stab.

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That is an extremely powerful and valuable B.O.W. that Chris just murdered like nothing. In fact the whole reason they are in RE5 is because even though Lickers were actually created originally as an accident, the demand for them on the black market was so great that Tricell decided to mass produce them. A single Licker can solo a heavily armed black ops unit, and a pack of them can wipe out an entire military contingent, or even an entire police station.

Even an ace marksman such as Leon Kennedy, while wielding an assault rifle on fully-auto mode is unable to tag a Licker. That is how fast they are.

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Yet Chris made a Licker look like an idiot with a mere uppercut. This is the type of speed that Ultimate Captain America would NOT be able to take lightly, hence Chris Redfield must be the faster and more skilled of the two.

The rival to the Licker is the Hunter. They are just as fast and just as deadly, yet they too are no match for Chris. It took two of them attacking him at the same time from both sides just to give him a run for his money; you can even see the Hunter's moving at near-imperceptible speeds and casually sidestepping a point blank shotgun blast, but Chris literally says "god they're fast... but so am I!" and proceeds to wreck them. He was even able to dodge one Hunter while the other was holding onto his leg, tricking the two into colliding and leaving them open for gunfire. These scans also show how Chris can intermingle his melee attacks with gunfire.

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Killing two Hunters simultaneously in pure melee is a tremendous feat of skill for Chris, however keep in mind this was Chris in the very early stages of his career, before the BSAA was even formed. By the time of RE6, Chris has amassed an additional 14 years of experience under his belt, and considering the fact that he can absolutely fodderize a Licker by the time of RE5, I would hazard a guess and say that he would have fodderized these two Hunters as well if he were at his best.

Ultimate Captain America is a terrific tactician, but he has no feats of pure melee skill on par with what Chris is able to do.

Let's go even further, because I just KNOW you're going to resort to the old "those monsters had no skill" argument. After all, everybody does. As if that completely nullifies the tremendous amount of skill on Chris's part. But anyway, let's talk about how Chris compares to other skilled fighters. Contrary to popular belief, Chris has displayed the sufficient combat speed to tag and dodge Wesker at least once in every single physical encounter they've had.

Examples of Chris tagging Wesker before he could react:

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Examples of Chris dodging Wesker:

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At one point, Chris was even able to take Wesker on in hand-to-hand combat by himself, albeit briefly, and put him on the defensive. Chris began by breaking Wesker's grip on Jill, then assaulted him with a kick and a tight combo that in conjunction actually forced Wesker to block. You can see that this is one of the rare instances where Chris managed to wipe the smirk straight off Wesker's face. Then, even after Wesker punches Chris across the face, instead of flying backwards like most people do, Chris is actually able to divert the momentum of the blow in order to power his own reverse roundhouse kick, once again surprising Wesker and forcing him to block.

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Granted, this is hardly a stellar performance, but fighting even this well against an opponent of Wesker's magnitude is impressive in its own right, given Wesker's vastly superhuman strength, speed, greater training, and high-level martial arts skill in his own right. The mere fact that he can be a rival to Wesker proves that Chris is an expert combatant.

IV. Conclusion

Next post I will go over the following points:

  • Further durability
  • Further melee skill
  • Weaponry and damage output
  • Range
  • Tactical skills

There are still many factors left to go over, but for now the goal was simply to establish that Chris can indeed be a challenging opponent for Cap, because I know I was the underdog here. I'll leave things as is for now before my post becomes too massive, and allow you to reply. I've nearly exhausted my supply of strength and speed feats, but I think I've proven Chris is operating at a similar level to Cap on the former, and surpasses him on the latter. You can list a whole bunch of new feats for Cap that I'll have nothing left to counter with, but I say quality over quantity. I know Ultimate Cap's feats well, and there isn't anything you can bring up that would surpass what has already been presented for Chris, at least in those two areas.

To surmise, I do believe strength and durability are even enough, but Chris takes the edge in speed and skill so a melee encounter is going in his favor. Chris is better with a knife and a gun then Steve is with a shield, and those two weapons are more dangerous than the shield anyway. About the only area where Steve has a true advantage (and believe me it pains me to admit this) is in tactical skills, but that shouldn't be a changing factor. Chris is a fantastic tactician himself.

Anyway, I await your response.

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#25 Edited by TheNaughtyTitan (10001 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for dem votes.

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#26 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for attention.

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#27 Posted by StormShadow_X (15973 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#28 Posted by MonsterStomp (36562 posts) - - Show Bio

Haven't seen a second rebuttal from Nickzambuto in a long time.

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#29 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

Haven't seen a second rebuttal from Nickzambuto in a long time.

Well when my opponent can actually put up a fight instead of talking nonsense it keeps things interesting.

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#30 Posted by MonsterStomp (36562 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: That is literally the most ironic thing I've ever read in my entire life.

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#31 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: That is literally the most ironic thing I've ever read in my entire life.

lol mad sorry you got wrecked

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#32 Posted by MonsterStomp (36562 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: My initial comment wasn't even suppose to be taken in offence. I know most people get extremely busy. I was just saying, its nice to finally get more than expected from you.

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#33 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

It was Ultimates 2 Annual #1. Arnim Zola takes Cap's shield and then Steve is overrun and captured by KKK members. I'll post the scans for you since you're curious, but to be clear, I'm not trying to lowball Steve or judge him by this one showing, I know it was WIS. I was only bringing it up to reflect on how all characters have inconsistencies, but if we take out an AVERAGE and judge them by that, Chris and Cap come out looking almost completely on par.

Actually after re reading the comic, Cap could as easily be said not wanting to fight back. Sam was unlocking the gates for the 100s of prisoners who would take care that small army of thugs. Cap even snickered when Sam finish unlocking the cages. One could say he just plan it happening, since he knew Sam was unlocking the mass of p!$$ed off prisoners.

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So I never took that as him being beaten or a low showing. Just part of the plan for Sam to do his thing.

I. Strength:

I disagree. He's stronger than that. And so is Chris.

Well... we will see. Im going to make it known now. while some feats may be construed as such, fact is Cap is a Super Human design to be far above human. Chris is a human. Batman stats. That is just my thoughts as there is no logical explanation for him being Caps equal in stats. Even Batman has some super human abilites, but nothing that says he should beat Ultimate Cap.

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Normal humans cannot shove rubble that would give Dozers a hard time all day.

Alright good, thank you. I made a lot of edits to that section because I wasn't sure if I was explaining things properly. Just to reiterate that is literally a Spider-Man level feat Chris performed, I would put it into tons but then it'd be too ridiculous for people to accept. (It's a 20 ton feat at the absolute lowest) Cap has a lot of excellent feats as you showed, but I do not think any of them are quite as insane as this one feat for Chris, and Chris still has lesser showings that are on par with those for Cap.

Not in lifting. Though stricking is still better. Though to be fair Ultimate Cap is lifting 10 tons more than a few times. I low ball to 5 but 10(ish) tons would be more accurate. Anyway lets get to this.

I should point out that Steve smashed Tigra with his shield and then pushed him straight into the column. If Cap just punched Tigra and sent him flying hard enough to smash the column, that would be an awesome feat of pure striking power, but with Steve literally pushing Tigra directly against the column it becomes a little less impressive. It isn't anything special to Chris since Chris was able to smash a much thicker stone column pretty casually when it got in the way of a puzzle during RE5.

Im not seeing much of a difference here. Tigra is super human, and Steve overpowers here, and with shield or not, pushes her with his momentum and strength through a solid stone column. IMO that is better.

I do a lot of work with asphalt and that layer probably weighs close to 5 tons on its own, let alone the car on top. Like I said, Ultimate Cap is a LOT stronger than people give him credit for, and people already give him a lot of credit to begin with.

I agree, I low ball it. I worked in the Seabees as you know, worked a lot of land moving equipment, and that is more close to 15 tons (I base this one solid earth I have moved of that size). Only Cap lifted one end not the middle, lessening the feat a bit.

However the same goes for Chris, which is why I wanted to pit these two against each other. Lifting that car + layer of asphalt and earth is not beyond Chris's ability to replicate, even on average considering he's able to do things like this.

The Ogroman is a building-sized giant monster so strong that it took an airstrike directly to its exposed organs in order to kill it. Its flesh was like metal, concentrated APC fire could hurt it, but not actually break the skin. Its only weakness was the aforementioned exposed organs, but that was resolved by installing a giant metal plug to keep the organs stuffed inside. And yet here is Chris, ripping the Ogroman's flesh apart just as a side effect of grabbing the plug and forcibly pulling the giant organ out. That huge mass of flesh and muscle had to at least weigh a few thousand pounds on its own plus the solid metal plug adding extra weight, admittedly the organ doesn't look quite as heavy as the layer of asphalt/dirt that Cap lifted, nor is the plug quite as heavy as the car, but keep in mind the whole thing was rooted inside the Ogroman's body and closed around the super strong flesh. Chris wasn't just lifting everything like Cap did, he had to forcibly rip it through a very dense material. Just lifting that mass would be impressive on its own, and likewise breaking the Ogroman's dense hide with bare hands would be impressive, but since Chris did them both at the same time... I would say the feat is just barely on par with Steve.

Fair enough.

Agreed. A lot of people actually use this as a low showing and say that it proves Ult. Cap can't match Spider-Man in a grapple, and I just don't get it. They are both clearly at a stalemate, with the art depicting them both shaking from the strain and driving each other into the dirt. Neither one of them is holding back. Granted, Spider-Man was already injured and fatigued beforehand, but this is still an excellent feat for Cap. However, it is still surpassed by Chris breaking Illuzija's constriction. Illuzija was more than just a giant snake, it was enhanced by the C-Virus and was strong enough to smash through giant concrete walls, eat up gunfire, and burrow through the Earth as if it was just air. And the act of constricting would have enhanced the snake's power exponentially, and yet Chris broke it through sheer strength. Cap doesn't have any feats as quantifiably insane as this one.

Yup, moving on.

Yeah, you can see how big the trees are in the first few panels when one of them crushes a truck. 5 tons sounds about right, great feat for Cap. But at the risk of sounding repetitive, it still does not put Steve above Chris. Not when Chris has the strength to roll a gigantic 25 ton boulder with his bare hands.

All Steve did was catch the tree. Chris actually moved this boulder. People lowball this feat way too much just because the boulder was vaguely-circle shaped. Yeah, so what? As if that completely nullifies the weight? Rolling something requires lifting it to a degree, especially when the boulder wasn't anywhere close to perfectly round and had many bumps that Chris needed to push it over. This, along with the Illuzija showing, are Chris's two highest end strength feats (he has three others of similar caliber but they are arguably more durability oriented), and they blow most of Cap's feats out of the water. So again, the most Steve can hope for is being on par with Chris's strength.

While most of this is kinda true, the fact is like me low balling Caps car feat with all that solid earth, the physics come to play here. The Boulder being round helps aleviate alot of the weight to move it. Its common physics at that point. No mere human can move that boulder granted, but it is lessen by that fact from shoving it a distance away, dragging it, or lifting it. I would not know how to quantify it other than its a good feat still. The tree like wise is impressive as the weight is enough to crush a Up Armor HMMWV. Which is crazy in itself. Add tot hat the momentum of the tree had in its fall. So i say 5+ as Im not sure where to place it other than Spider Man (Ultimate that is) Strength level.

Can you source these two scans? It looks like Valkyrie might not have been going full force against Steve, since she was only interested in Thor and ended up just leaving right after Steve caught her blow. As for Zarda, Cap DID use his shield to block that attack. Just because it was never explicitly stated in the Ultimate universe that Cap's shield absorbs kinetic force, I don't think that means it doesn't, that's a pretty signature ability of the shield. That's like saying Ultimate Cap isn't Steve Rogers just because it was never stated (and yes that WAS stated, but you get my point).

Regardless, Zarda didn't even punch Steve, she slashed him with her sword. If it was a straight punch the feat would be impressive, but a horizontal sword slash isn't going to have much force in it anyway, not to mention Zarda wasn't even aiming at Steve. That's how he was able to deflect it off his shield like that. I don't think the scan necessarily puts Steve on par with Hyperion or anything.

The Valkyrie one was New Ultimates #1. The Zarda was Ultimate Hulk Annual where Zarda fought Hulk. Now Valkyrie is super strong as hell.

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Able to spar with God Thor, and even block his all out attacks like the time Thor was force against here with illusions. When Steve talk smack to her about her love Thor, she clearly got upset, and went to strike Cap down in a fit of rage. Cap caught the fist, and kicked the wind out of her. Zarda is a muderer. Plain and simple. She murders helpless people, and has no morals. The only reason she was working with Cap and the Ultimate was because Hyperion told her to. As near equals with Hyperion, Cap was able to block her attack.

As for Cap's shield, why should it absorb energy when A) it was never stated to, and B) its not made of Vibranium and C) it has been rebuilt three times, cracking with enough force, and wear/tear over uses? There is no reason for the shield to listen the blow. Only the cutting damage, the momentum and force in the swing is still there.Cap also block Thor best hit with said shield though he was KO, but the fact he survive is not crushed or pulverize is crazy.

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The reason Hulk was weaker when he fought Captain America is because it was explicitly stated that Hulk kept getting stronger the more the Ultimates antagonized him. AKA "The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets!"

Well yes and no. Hulk does not get stronger. That is not his power. His power is adapting. He adapts to stress factors. Off topic however. The fact is before Cap he was tearing up Giant Man and Iron Man.

Hence Giant Man was able to briefly restrain him at the start of the battle, but then Hulk got angry and broke free, then Hulk fought Iron Man and probably got a little stronger again, but then Janet showed him her breasts and he became happy, and THEN he and Cap fought, with Cap taking the initial advantage until Hulk once again got angry, at which point he stood up and started manhandling Cap, and at that point there was nothing Cap could do because Hulk was stronger.

Yes. Hulk adapts, but Hulk still trashed iron man and Giant Man well before that. He was already uber powerful at that point from the stress factors.

Basically, Cap putting down Hulk is unquantifiable because Hulk's power fluctuated constantly throughout the battle. I already countered this feat with Chris putting Wesker on his back, and Wesker definitely has power comparable to what Hulk had at that specific moment when Cap fought him. Your claim that Tyrants only have 20 ton strength doesn't make any sense in light of the feats I mentioned; reaching an airborne plane by jumping when the plane has already had several entire minutes to get far away from you, and wrestling with a cruise missile aren't 20 ton feats. In Damnation a Tyrant was even able to lift a tank. These monsters are closer to 50-60 tons, not 20.

Un quantifiable? It is not. Ultimate Hulk already was amped and adapted to fighting Giant Man and Iron Man. Caps took him down with his striking strength, and skill. Cap shows this consistency again with Juggernaut, and Warmachine as well. While tyrants are awesome, Chris cannot beat one in close combat. I bet Cap can by feats. he should this with Her Kleiser.

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Kleiser is able to smash in reinforce, and super think bunker doors like a joke.

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Here Kleiser tanks a full on fighter jet hitting him, and smashing him in Jet Fuel for a major blast of super heated flames. He is merely upset.

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Kleiser here tanks many blows from murderous Hulk, and smashes Hulk with a easy 10+ ton military cargo truck.

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In this whole battle we see the skill level, and crazy regen of Kleiser, even having his head nearly blown off, or cut in half.

Kleiser by feats is far superior to Wesker and Tyrants. He is shown to tank way more than RPGs, better strength with the bunker vault door feat, have a healing factor bonus, great knowledge of technical skill in a fight, and as fast as Cap. Cap was more than able to hang with this guy for a lengthy close combat match. We really see Chris doing the same for a second? I dont. Chris cannot even engage in hand to hand with weaker Tyrants.

But disregard that, because I just remembered something to one-up myself. Forget about Chris knocking out regular Wesker, because at the end of the game Chris was actually able to physically restrain Uroboros Wesker and damage him with regular punches.

There are a few factors which make this feat even more ridiculous than the boulder and Illuzija feat, and also more impressive than any of Ult. Cap's showings in terms of both strength and durability.

  1. Chris and Wesker were fighting inside of an active volcano. Now that might be no problem for Wesker, but for a regular human like Chris, every breath of those volcanic fumes should have been like breathing in shards of glass. Chris and Sheva's entire bodies should have been fried the instant they landed in that volcano, yet not only are they surviving, but they are even breathing and continuing to fight with no problem.
  2. Chris was already injured beforehand, from the plane crashing into the volcano in the first place at high speeds from hundreds of feet in the air (which is a good showing on its own). This is reflected in-game by the fact that regardless of the player's health, Chris will be stuck in the 'caution' or 'danger' animation until the actual fight with Wesker begins.
  3. Wesker already had Tyrant level strength to begin with, but Uroboros Wesker was a legitimate 100 tonner. Check out the three minute mark in the above video where he brings down an entire cliffside just by attacking Sheva.
  4. The Uroboros virus works by attempting to bond to the host, but only less than 1% of the human race has appropriate DNA for that to work. If the virus fails it will instead mutate every cell in the host's body into those worm-line tentacles that surround Wesker's body, and they will spread infinitely in an attempt to assimilate any biological material they come across. Chris was literally right on top of Wesker and being killed by Uroboros actively as he was holding Wesker back; it's actually impossible to complete this QTE unless you have full health. Now Uroboros is so powerful that it can assimilate close to 100 superhuman Majini in less than 1 minute, yet Chris in this scene is able to resist it on his own for that same amount of time, while simultaneously fighting. THAT is called conviction.

Every instance of Cap fighting a 100 tonner has some context to it. Hulk? There's no proof that he was a 100 tonner yet. Juggernaut? Already defeated by a rampaging dinosaur and he didn't have his helmet on, all Cap did was deliver the final blow. Abomination? Featless and much weaker than Hulk at the time when he smashed Cap, was also likely holding back because he wasn't supposed to kill Cap at that time.

Chris on the other hand, has a legitimate feat against Uroboros Wesker, and also a few other comparable showings against other creatures that we'll get into as we go along.

Im really not convince here. All he did was jump on Wesker who did not make any attempt to dislodge him from what I saw. Also not sure why your dissing the feats of Juggernaut, or Hulk. Why bring up Abomination when Cap never fought him? Here is context.

Before fighting cap Ultimate Hulk shredded the feat heavy, and durable Iron Man armor.

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Then Cap did this to Hulk after Hulk trashed Iron Man.

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Juggernaut was KOed with help from the Dinosaur the second fight.... what about the first time when Cap KOed him with a kick?

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Also where is the mention of Warmachine? Or even Nerd Hulk who has a steady baselin of massive strength and durability?

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Nerd Hulk smashes Caps face in the road, and Cap just kicks him in the junk once, downing him the rest of the fight. Even though Nerd Hulk did some impressive stuff later vs Red Skull with Cosmic Cube. Either way this last one is funny, and shows off Cap's dirty fighting lol.

Still though, Cap has other great strength feats.

Hulk rip through that armor like tin foil. There is nothing (10-15) ton about that armor and the feats it has. Sure it had little feats in the begining, but that does not change the fact that same armor has incredible feats in the 1000+ ton range.

Actually Tony's armor was already malfunctioning during the Hulk battle itself, and afterwards he called it a piece of junk or something like that and mentioned how it was always letting him down, so he upgraded it sometime during the second arc. The armor that Hulk beat was featless and not even working properly.

It is well into the 1000 + ton range. All in Ultimates 1 mate.That piece of junk was never officially shown updated till after all I stated above. Ultimate 1, Ultimate 2, Ultimate Power, Ultimate Gah Lak Tus Trilogy, Ultimates vs X-Men, and everything pre Ultimates 3 was that armor. However if we want to say it was not upgraded till Ultimates two, then these feats apply.

Here is what he says right before the Chitari Battle.

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Meaning this was the same defuntive suit he used in the Chitari battle feats below mate. Same Suit he fought Hulk in mind you. Ultimates 1 Arc.

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Same Armor that fought the Chitari, and help safely land a Chitari Ship.

Rips casually a solid bomb the size of a house, and drag it around fine.

It tank a nuke in the mega tons with its force field.

Ultimate War Arc. Publish 2003 before Ultimates 2 which was 2005.

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Tanks a full on blow, while traveling at high sped himself, from Colossus. Yet he is back in action till Wolverine took him out.

Takes out a neighborhood with a drive by of Repulsar blasts.

Ultimate Six Arc also publish in 2003 before Ultimate 2.

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Fights Sandman in a lengthy fight till wining.

This Spider Man publish in 2002 IIRC well before Ultimate Six.

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Takes out Rhino easy.

With that said he does not say anything about updates till Ultimate 2 publish in 2005.

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Even then its the same armor model with updates. If anything minor updates as nothing feat wise it does in Ultimates 2 is overly impressive to what i showed above!

That Ultimates 1 suit (Ultimate War, Ultimate 6, ect) is damn impressive. Your looking for any flaw to make Ultimate Hulk look weak and thats bad IMO as you really made bad assumptions here. You want me to go along with the Snake feat putting Chris in the Spider Man strength level, even though he is stated human, but want to low ball Ultimate hulk as a 20 toner when Cap drop him?! No.

Now with all that said, I DO still respect Ultimate Captain America's abilities a LOT and I do believe that they should be portrayed as equals in terms of strength and durability. Just one final note on strength before we move on, to prove that Chris really does have a counter for almost every one of Cap's feats, despite not nearly as many appearances:

Then dont low ball Hulk when he tore Giant Man, Iron Man, and Captain America's super tank apart before Steve got to him.

Well Cap did have his shield there. It happened off-screen so I imagine the shield played a big role, jamming it in the joints and stuff to disassemble War Machine. Cap's shield does give him tremendous damage output far exceeding Chris's muscles, but Chris has his own weapons to counter that so it's a separate topic. I'm just saying, in terms of sheer strength the two are likely equal.

The shield is a shield. Its like saying "Chris knife makes him stronger." No it does not. The Shield give him options, but it need strength and momentum behind it to be of any use.

I'm not sure how War Machine compares to J'avo, but it might be worth mentioning since it's stated that "bullets don't even phase them" and they can regenerate an entire skull in a couple seconds, and that's just their human forms, yet Chris can literally rip their mutated forms to shreds and then beat them to death with their own severed limbs.

Impressive, but nothing Cap could not do with his bare hands.

Again, I'm not sure how War Machine compares to J'avo. If I had to hazard a guess I would say he probably far exceeds them, but still, I think Chris's ability to rip superhumans apart is worth mentioning on its own as a feat of strength, since disassembling War Machine (and also knocking out Hulk to an extent) are more about Cap's damage output with the shield rather than raw strength. (We'll address damage output a little later)

Warmachine tanks this with minimal damage.

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Tanks Cash blows fine, even though he has Hulk formula in him. As seen still functional.

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Cash trades blows, and causes earth quacks wailing on Warmachine. Warmachine was still moving around after this.

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Warmachine over powers Iron Man. Nuff said.

Putting down Warmachine with the Shield were he could not fight within five seconds is a stupid good feat.

II. Durability:

He WAS taken out. Not knocked unconscious, but his broken bones and wounds prevented him from entering combat again, from that point on he stayed on the sidelines and just coordinated everyone. Therefore, I can't count it as a feat of durability since it succeeded in taking Cap out of the fight.

Cap was still walking around, and giving commands. Add to this he fought in worse shape against Nuke.

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Cap was for a week tortured, starved of food, and drain of blood. Yet in the worst shape possible manage to beat Nuke in a even fight. Why is a few broken bones that bad?

Again, the fact that Cap was KOd means this is not a feat of durability. The writer had Cap fail, as in it wasn't meant to be an indication of his power. The fact that he survived doesn't matter, that's just what the plot dictated. By comparison, the only time throughout the entire RE series where Chris was knocked out, was in the very first game, and not by blunt force, but when he was poisoned by Yawn. Does Cap carry any poisons on him? Because if not, he will find it very very difficult to knock Chris out for good.

Its a durability feat in the fact this kind of attack would kill Chris and likely kill most Tyrants who die to RPG rockets. You think Chris done better fighting several super suit Shield Agents with Tranqs pumping through him? I doubt it.

Now this blows all of Chris's feats out of the water. Do you think you could you post the page right before?

Sure.

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Warmachine just got iron man down, and was told to save Fury. Next page we see Warmachine flying at Cap. Next page, Warmachine slams Cap through the bridge in spectacular fashion. Next page Warmachine still fighting Cap in the water. Next page shows Thor then saving Cap. Next few pages we see after Fury was pulled out of the water, Cap tried to kill him again, and had to be restrain. Had to be in a minuet time frame otherwise Fury would have drown, so I do not see Cap being KOed from this at all.

What are you talking about? Chris taking 6, 7, or as many as 8 hits from Wesker all in one battle and remaining largely unfazed by the end of it whereas characters like Jill, Claire, and Sheva who all have superhuman durability in their own right are oneshotted isn't impressive? The fact that what would normally be seen as weak, fleshy points on the human body like the kidneys or cheek are harder than tempered steel on Chris isn't enough to match Ultimate Cap?

Cap tank more and better hits from Kleiser who is well above Wesker in everything but speed. I can show more feats of Cap superiority.

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Abomination stated as strong as Hulk was during the first two transformations smashes Steve hard, then throws him through a wall. Steve is fine.

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Cap blocks a blood lusted Thor hit, flies some distance, and is sent through a skycraper. He is fine. Chris nor Wesker have anything on these feats my friend.

Steve isn't all 100 tonners and huge explosions you know. I don't believe either Nuke or Red Skull have as much damage output as Chris, and they put Steve down pretty easily. Chris's advantage here is that he's a lot more consistent than Cap. Whereas Cap has his highs and his lows and than an average in between, Chris truly is all about tanking hits from Wesker and Tyrants and huge explosions, and he has almost no low showings to offset it.

Red Skull is stated superior to Captain America in every way. Skull also surprise attack Cap. Nuke is Caps equal and surprise Cap as well with his super human stats. Yet Cap beat Nuke in worse shape than Cap was in the first fight. i am showing consistent feats. You are not.

I mean think of it this way. One of Ultimate Cap's trademarks of durability is his ability to jump from helicopters and airplanes without a parachute, and fall from buildings unharmed. Jill fell a similar distance to any leap Cap has ever taken when she tackled Wesker out of the window of the Spencer Estate; she survived that and yet in the same battle she was oneshotted by Wesker. I hate to tell ya this, but if Ultimate Cap fought Wesker, between Wesker's superhuman stats and honed martial arts precision, Steve wouldn't last very long. The absolute best he could hope to do... is last just as long as Chris does.

Ultimate Cap tackled Silver Herald from Skyscraper twice, and landed in a dive both times fine.

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Jill nearly died from tackling Wesker, and the sad part is we never seen her or Wesker land hard anywhere. Just a fade to black with Chris yelling. Wesker could have easily caught a ledge or something. There is no proof of Jill landing from that height.

Hence the two are on par.

Not nearly close to being on par.

Like what? I've seen Ultimate Cap's feats, and besides that War Machine scan which you just posted, he doesn't seem to be as massively dominant to Chris as you are implying.

There is some more above superior to anything Chris tank.

I mean even back in the original Resident Evil game, Chris was portrayed as the strong guy of the group with superhuman durability. You're saying that the section of the game where he was ensnared by the giant Plant 42 and crushed by its tentacles while having his blood drained by poison suckers wasn't impressive? Chris was literally struggling against the vines, continuously, long enough for Rebecca to frantically around the dormitories and crack the code to the formula for V-Jolt, the only known poison to effect Plant 42, and then spend time actually concocting the complex chemical serum, and then run to the ALL THE WAY opposite side of the dormitories, down into the basement, and finally locate Plant 42's roots where she was able to administer the V-Jolt. That entire time Chris was enduring the torture non-stop, from a giant monster plant that by virtue of sheer size had to be at least a 20 tonner.

Captain America beat up Giant Man, but if Giant Man managed to grab him during that fight, could Steve had endured just being squeezed to death for like 15 minutes straight? Non-stop, no breaks, nothing else but constantly being squeezed? Would Captain America have the endurance to last under that strain? I mean even Hulk had a hard enough time breaking free from Giant Man's grasp, and even though he was weakened at the time, it's worth noting that Giant Man easily restrained and knocked out Captain America right after he thawed from the ice. So, even at his best, could Cap last under that strain? Chris did.

I mean yeah it isn't very cinematic... but a feat is a feat. And this was way before Chris buffed up in RE5. After over 10 years of intensive weight training, Chris's physical limits increased exponentially. Currently he would probably be strong enough to just rip Plant 42 off him; going by how they are portrayed in Ultimates, I can't say the same if Steve was grabbed by Giant Man.

Same Steve was just coming out of a 60 year frozen coma, and then was surprise attack, and was wiggling fine under the hand. You really think the guy who took this beating from Juggernaut....

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Could be squeezed to death by Giant Man? Your pushing my sense of logic to the borders now. Like you said about the above feat, very game play mechanic. Not really cut scene, or real time material to me. there is nothing to suggest Chris somehow got free, and was grabbed again when she finish the antidote. Half that video was a player running around all slow like.

III. Speed/Skill:

The last thing SHIELD wanted was to injure Captain America when they just thawed him from the ice. He attacked by complete surprise and didn't react to any projectiles directly.

Shield still fired Tranqs while Cap blitz the super human Fury (yes Nick Fury is a Super Soldier Formula super human as well mate, the original Captain America in sense) who has over 60 years of combat experience fine. It was a great feat for being weak.

Definitely an over looked feat for Ult. Cap but it isn't on par with Chris's speed.

Well lets see what you have then.

I addressed this in my first post, allow me to restate:

Both of these characters fight in actual wars where they are getting shot at from all sides and never take a single bullet, which is enough in itself to prove their speed, but only Chris has displayed the reflexes to actually react to a bullet fired at him directly, and either sidestep it, duck underneath it, or even perform a barrel roll out of the way before it can reach him.

I can post any section of a random walkthrough of RE6 and we'll see Chris doing the same thing that Ultimate Cap is doing in those scans you posted.

I agree. bullet dodging and aim dodging is not a big deal for either.

Definitely Cap's best feat, but unfortunately it is still aim dodging and a mere training exercise. I already showed Chris reacting to projectiles far faster than AK fire after they were fired, on not one but TWO occasions.

Aim Dodging Iron Man auto target tech while focusing on a obstacle course while doing it? Riiiiiight.

I mean if you really look at that scan of Cap dodging the AK, the bullets are just kinda going everywhere across the floor and nowhere near Cap to begin with. So it isn't as good as the feats I already posted for Chris.Mainly do to Cap staying ahead of the weapon while running a obstacle course.

Hawkeye's accuracy doesn't make the projectiles any faster, and reacting to tranquilizers isn't exactly top tier. Not as impressive as several instances of Chris sidestepping bullets from close range.

Yet Hawkeye accuracy allowed for a RPG to tag a 100+ MPH Ghost Rider over a mile away fine.

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He is just that damn good of a shot, and Ultimate hawkeye has super speed in the twitch factor as well.

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Forget that part? Cap reacted to bullet tranqs at close quarters, with arms wide open for attack, and casually deflected them accurately back before they could reach.

Even if I played devil's advocate and said that the feats for Chris and Steve thus far are on par, the problem is that you've already exhausted the supply of speed feats for Ultimate Captain America. Whereas I really haven't even gotten started yet for Chris.

Have I?

Let's take a look at combat speed, a concept near-nonexistent in Ultimate Cap's world. Whereas Chris Redfield is actually a top tier among peak humans.

Observe as he intercepts a Licker in mid-pounce with an uppercut, sending it backwards and straight onto its back where he is then able to follow up with a heart stab.

That is an extremely powerful and valuable B.O.W. that Chris just murdered like nothing. In fact the whole reason they are in RE5 is because even though Lickers were actually created originally as an accident, the demand for them on the black market was so great that Tricell decided to mass produce them. A single Licker can solo a heavily armed black ops unit, and a pack of them can wipe out an entire military contingent, or even an entire police station.

Even an ace marksman such as Leon Kennedy, while wielding an assault rifle on fully-auto mode is unable to tag a Licker. That is how fast they are.

Yet Chris made a Licker look like an idiot with a mere uppercut. This is the type of speed that Ultimate Captain America would NOT be able to take lightly, hence Chris Redfield must be the faster and more skilled of the two.

Yet the whole feat i less by the fact Lickers look no faster than a Rattlesnake striking :/ Im looking at it. I can perceive it. Its not that fast.

The rival to the Licker is the Hunter. They are just as fast and just as deadly, yet they too are no match for Chris. It took two of them attacking him at the same time from both sides just to give him a run for his money; you can even see the Hunter's moving at near-imperceptible speeds and casually sidestepping a point blank shotgun blast, but Chris literally says "god they're fast... but so am I!" and proceeds to wreck them. He was even able to dodge one Hunter while the other was holding onto his leg, tricking the two into colliding and leaving them open for gunfire. These scans also show how Chris can intermingle his melee attacks with gunfire.

Killing two Hunters simultaneously in pure melee is a tremendous feat of skill for Chris, however keep in mind this was Chris in the very early stages of his career, before the BSAA was even formed. By the time of RE6, Chris has amassed an additional 14 years of experience under his belt, and considering the fact that he can absolutely fodderize a Licker by the time of RE5, I would hazard a guess and say that he would have fodderized these two Hunters as well if he were at his best.

Pretty good feat, and like the art work. Looks better than the game scenes by alot.

Ultimate Captain America is a terrific tactician, but he has no feats of pure melee skill on par with what Chris is able to do.

Really? Cap taking down Kleiser was not enough? I mean you want to say That feat is superior to Kleiser in close combat. Ok. I disagree. here is another feat superior to that feat as well.

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Here is Cap with no prep, and no gear but his Shield take down the ultimate Avenger Roster.

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While intentionally holding back. Anything Chris and Wesker have done combine, trumped.

Let's go even further, because I just KNOW you're going to resort to the old "those monsters had no skill" argument. After all, everybody does. As if that completely nullifies the tremendous amount of skill on Chris's part. But anyway, let's talk about how Chris compares to other skilled fighters. Contrary to popular belief, Chris has displayed the sufficient combat speed to tag and dodge Wesker at least once in every single physical encounter they've had.

I was not going to say anything about skill, but Cap match fine ultimate sabertooth who got the surprise attack on Cap.

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Damage, Cap fought and got the hits in on a foe that rivals Wolverine more than half their fights.

Examples of Chris tagging Wesker before he could react:

Examples of Chris dodging Wesker:

At one point, Chris was even able to take Wesker on in hand-to-hand combat by himself, albeit briefly, and put him on the defensive. Chris began by breaking Wesker's grip on Jill, then assaulted him with a kick and a tight combo that in conjunction actually forced Wesker to block. You can see that this is one of the rare instances where Chris managed to wipe the smirk straight off Wesker's face. Then, even after Wesker punches Chris across the face, instead of flying backwards like most people do, Chris is actually able to divert the momentum of the blow in order to power his own reverse roundhouse kick, once again surprising Wesker and forcing him to block.

Granted, this is hardly a stellar performance, but fighting even this well against an opponent of Wesker's magnitude is impressive in its own right, given Wesker's vastly superhuman strength, speed, greater training, and high-level martial arts skill in his own right. The mere fact that he can be a rival to Wesker proves that Chris is an expert combatant.

All that was just trumped.

IV. Conclusion

There are still many factors left to go over, but for now the goal was simply to establish that Chris can indeed be a challenging opponent for Cap, because I know I was the underdog here. I'll leave things as is for now before my post becomes too massive, and allow you to reply. I've nearly exhausted my supply of strength and speed feats, but I think I've proven Chris is operating at a similar level to Cap on the former, and surpasses him on the latter. You can list a whole bunch of new feats for Cap that I'll have nothing left to counter with, but I say quality over quantity. I know Ultimate Cap's feats well, and there isn't anything you can bring up that would surpass what has already been presented for Chris, at least in those two areas.

You have not convince me at all Chris belongs here at this level. Punisher be a good fight. Not Cap. Most feats I showed in durability, and accomplishments in fighting overwhelming odds simply make Chris look like a child.

To surmise, I do believe strength and durability are even enough, but Chris takes the edge in speed and skill so a melee encounter is going in his favor. Chris is better with a knife and a gun then Steve is with a shield, and those two weapons are more dangerous than the shield anyway. About the only area where Steve has a true advantage (and believe me it pains me to admit this) is in tactical skills, but that shouldn't be a changing factor. Chris is a fantastic tactician himself.

I have not even touch on Shield feats yet.

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#34 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36334 posts) - - Show Bio

T4Vs

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#35 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: I was just thinking about this. Don't worry, it's not over yet.

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#37 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by AllStarSuperman (42655 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, can't wait for the next post.

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#39 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36334 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: I was just thinking about this. Don't worry, it's not over yet.

Get your *** back here and finish this!!!

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#40 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio
@lukehero said:
@nickzambuto said:

@sirfizzwhizz: I was just thinking about this. Don't worry, it's not over yet.

Get your *** back here and finish this!!!

Nick will respond....In a month.....

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#41 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36334 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Has this nicka ever finished a CAV in the last year?

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#42 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by TheNaughtyTitan (10001 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:
@lukehero said:
@nickzambuto said:

@sirfizzwhizz: I was just thinking about this. Don't worry, it's not over yet.

Get your *** back here and finish this!!!

Nick will respond....In a month.....

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Wow, can't wait for the next post.

But will there be one?

FIND OUT NEXT TIME! ON Dragon Ball Z!

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#44 Posted by TheNaughtyTitan (10001 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe nick would post if he didn't vastly overestimate characters and get into CAV's like this, lol :P.

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#45 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36334 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe nick would post if he didn't vastly overestimate characters and get into CAV's like this, lol :P.

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#46 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

Everyone is making fun of me *cries*

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#47 Posted by Wolfrazer (15929 posts) - - Show Bio

O.o For realsies?

Janet showed him her breasts and he became happy, and THEN he and Cap fought

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#48 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: Yes, she did it to distract him. Not a very dignifying character moment for Jan, but at least it was funny :P

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#49 Posted by Wolfrazer (15929 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: neither was being eaten alive by Blob. Or swallows by Thor and Doc Ock till thrown up. Or sprayed with raid and eaten by ants. Uptimate Janet got no respect.