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#1 Edited by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain Marvel

EcstaticGrace

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Ironman

SupremeGeneration

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Conditions:

  • Physical Bout
  • Random Encounter/No prep/knowledge
  • External/Internal Amps are allowed
  • Composite Endo-Sym, Extremis, Bleeding Edge armors for Stark
  • No "Any"buster armors
  • No Binary

Location:

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dome included

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#2 Posted by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11922 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Edited by SupremeGeneration (11922 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Edited by Vertigo- (17820 posts) - - Show Bio

tag

Online
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#6 Edited by StormShadow_X (16772 posts) - - Show Bio

Well this is just convenient. Tag

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#7 Posted by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by blackpantherisb (7260 posts) - - Show Bio

T4 V pease

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#9 Posted by Battle123axe (9049 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by seastone98 (4700 posts) - - Show Bio
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at first I was like billy curbs but then I saw ms marvel and I was like :( ^ still a good match tho ;)

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#11 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11922 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecstaticgrace: Let's do this

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We all know the backstory: Tony Stark yadayada brilliant inventor yadayada got kidnapped made suit yadayada. Let's get to the actual debating.

Beforehand:

Captain Marvel is outclassed. Go ahead and use those Civil War scans filled with PIS/WIS. Fricking Bendis is why we're debating, and I'm still ready to dish this out. Before we begin, keep in mind that much weaker armors than the ones I'm using here have matched Captain Marvel in combat:

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This is probably the most important scan from Iron Man (vol 3) #24. Captain Marvel, in her Warbird persona, came after Stark in a drunken haze. What happens? Well, mid-fight, she gets amped with "enough juice to light half of Seattle." She still struggles to remove the helmet of the Heroes Return armor. The rest of the scan is self-explanatory. She kicks him onto an airliner which they then land, and she faints because she'd "never lifted anything so heavy." I don't know about some supposed "amp" about some "Virus" but I genuinely doubt it'll do anything. Now it's time to get into the real deals:

The Fight

You, for whatever reason, wanted a physicals only fight. This includes the following:

Striking

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Even before Bleeding Edge, Iron Man has always been able to dish out the damage against Hulk-class opponents all the time. As we both know, Captain Marvel is from Hulk in terms of power level:

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IIRC that's Doc Green, not even Savage. However, even if it's Savage, it goes to show the difference between Iron Man and Carol. While she sits on top of him hitting him with all she's got, Iron Man can actually knock him back.

Durability

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If there's any two powerhouses that are out Carol's league that Stark can take blows from, it's the two above. Both Sentry and Thor (in both instances unhindered; not holding back in the first with the OF and mind-controlled in the second) have striking that exceeds Carol's by a lot, and Stark has taken both.

Speed

I've proven in my first scan that Stark can keep up with Carol. Let us further this:

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1) Blurred h2h combat (what we're going to be doing here) - 2) millisecond reaction times and a striking feat - 3) picosecond brain

The question is, will Carol be able to keep up with Stark's speed upgrades? Up to you to prove that.

Skill

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We see that Stark can completely decimate Cap in h2h, using his training in multiple situations, and I added the last one for the lolz. Something was wrong with Stark and Rhodey, a trained military operative much like Carol, said he couldn't beat Stark in a fair fight.

Conclusion

Gonna keep this short and simple: Carol is outclassed in every way possible. Any strategy you can make, I have a counter for. Good luck.

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#12 Posted by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by Ouroborik (3624 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#14 Posted by Batman3000 (5652 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag please :)

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#15 Posted by Chair-Sama (2299 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please

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#16 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please, I'm interested in this debate.

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#17 Posted by Battle123axe (9049 posts) - - Show Bio

that was not a nice iron man opener

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#18 Edited by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle123axe: Please refrain from commenting any opinions on the debate till voting.r

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I'm sure he's just getting warmed up as well.

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#19 Posted by Battle123axe (9049 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecstaticgrace: oh im not commenting on the actual battle, although im sorry

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#20 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11922 posts) - - Show Bio

that was not a nice iron man opener

Would you mind shooting me a PM of why?

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#21 Posted by seastone98 (4700 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Edited by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio
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Origin of the colonel

While Stark’s origin might be more known, Carol’s is not so I’ll start with a brief background on who Carol Danver’s is. Is a veteran of the USAF (United States Air Force), after leaving the Air force she’d continue to challenge herself and in doing so became the youngest NASA security chief in history at Cape Canaveral. This base is where she would end up meeting Mar-Vell and get caught in an explosion from a Kree device known as a Psyche-Magnitron. The result would be radiation from Mar-Vell pouring into Carol Danvers making her a Kree-Human hybrid. This resulted with her having greater speed, strength as well as the powers of flight and skill of a seasoned Kree warrior. Carol would soon be elevated even further when she was kidnapped by the Brood (Alien Race) and experimented on. The Brood would keep pushing through the evolutionary process until she became more (Binary) and make them regret it.

Beforehand:

Captain Marvel is outclassed. Go ahead and use those Civil War scans filled with PIS/WIS. Fricking Bendis is why we're debating, and I'm still ready to dish this out. Before we begin, keep in mind that much weaker armors than the ones I'm using here have matched Captain Marvel in combat:

Response to Intro:

This debate is taking place, because of the insertion that Iron Man outclasses Carol Danvers in "every way possible". Bendis and CW II didn't make Iron Man lose this thread, the combined histories of these two characters did. While your reading this keep in mind much weaker characters have matched Iron Man in combat, despite his several "upgrades" he's performed the same feats against specific characters throughout his comic history:

I'd ask for suggested proof of Armors being stronger, not called more powerful but actually suggested to be stronger. As well as the material difference of these armors.

I kind of already knew what to expect from this debate, so I did research and found context. Counter/Explanation to Ironman #24.

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Your going to have to show me an instance where Ms Marvel was said to be physically stronger in her standard form because of absorbing energy. I'll wait. In the third scan Stark himself the inventor of the armor suggest she's strong enough to do it. He hits her a bit back and she sends him flying off with a kick. The rest of the fight shows us she wasn't even aware of her actions, if that tells us anything about the way she's fighting it suggest sloppy, not in the right mindset and not aware of her actions. Yet, Stark is still unable to subdue, or show of his "superiority" against Carol if anything he was struggling, she was unaware of what was going on.

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This is probably the most important scan from Iron Man (vol 3) #24. Captain Marvel, in her Warbird persona, came after Stark in a drunken haze. What happens? Well, mid-fight, she gets amped with "enough juice to light half of Seattle." She still struggles to remove the helmet of the Heroes Return armor. The rest of the scan is self-explanatory. She kicks him onto an airliner which they then land, and she faints because she'd "never lifted anything so heavy." I don't know about some supposed "amp" about some "Virus" but I genuinely doubt it'll do anything. Now it's time to get into the real deals:

Response to Carol being weakened

.

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Ms. Marvel v2 #21 and #22 suggest Carol would become stronger, it was suggested three times before Ms. Marvel v2 #23 she looses her connection to Cru and becomes stronger.

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The Fight

You, for whatever reason, wanted a physicals only fight. This includes the following:

Response To The Fight

I wanted a physical fight, I'll clear that up now if anyone was wondering. The reason I wanted a physical fight is Iron Man is being suggested as Carol's physical better and I personally don't see it. I haven't seen him take down anyone in the same class as him physically.

Striking

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Even before Bleeding Edge, Iron Man has always been able to dish out the damage against Hulk-class opponents all the time. As we both know, Captain Marvel is from Hulk in terms of power level:

Response To Striking

What you showed did not represent greater striking ability, it actually comes off as Iron Man and Captain Marvel doing the same thing in a way. Iron Man didn’t get any special reaction from either Rulk or Hulk in the scan you posted, there was no indication of pain. What you showed was Iron Man has the ability to move both Hulks and then you went on to compare it to Carol blitzing a Hulk to the ground ironically. With a crater to top it all off in the Captain Marvel instance.

Hulk v2 #2

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This comic right here, kind of gives us an idea the power difference between Rulk and Ironman.

Hulk v2 #25

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Here we see Rulk's brain chemistry is altered affecting his powers. Banner suggesting he can't absorb energy anymore as well as being calmed. To top it all off for the majority of the assault Ross didn't seem ready to fight until the attack was ended by a third part. Stark did suggest he was cutting loose but to what extent is questionable factoring the rest of this in the picture.

Avengers Assemble

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I really don't understand why you would post this. How much weight is Hulk's head suppose to be that this is impressive. You know whose also capable of this feat?

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No exclamation of pain also. So it's quite similar. Is Assemble even cannon?

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IIRC that's Doc Green, not even Savage. However, even if it's Savage, it goes to show the difference between Iron Man and Carol. While she sits on top of him hitting him with all she's got, Iron Man can actually knock him back.

Avengers v5 #39

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I really don't get why this feat is thought so poorly of for Carol. If you pay attention to each panel it comes off pretty cool for her.

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Panel 1: Hulk is ripping apart War Machines piloted by Rhodey. Panel 2: Carol creates a sonic boom +, from such a small distance. Panel 3. We see Hulk on the ground eyes closed while Carol and Hawkeye are able to have a conversation. For 5 panels we don't know how Hulk's doing, and that's when we see him for the 6th, where somewhere between the 6th and 7th Carol gets BFR'd.

I'd say this is better than what you posted in regards to striking

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Hulks power level in Time Runs Out

During his time with the Illuminati Banner injected himself to be in better control.

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Avengers v5 #8

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Shows that suggesting she can't inflict pain on Hulk is incorrect, this is one more powerful than Doc Green.

Durability

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If there's any two powerhouses that are out Carol's league that Stark can take blows from, it's the two above. Both Sentry and Thor (in both instances unhindered; not holding back in the first with the OF and mind-controlled in the second) have striking that exceeds Carol's by a lot, and Stark has taken both.

Response to Durability

I'm aware Thor has better striking power than Miss Marvel has durability, but you practically implied that Iron Man is as durable as Odin Force Thor's best blow in your post. "Not holding back","Unhindered", "Better striking feats". Thing is we can safely say Thor isn't striking him with the force he used against Gorr. This comes off as a toned down Thor to fit the story suited to tell. Lets stick to feats that we can credibly give. Cause honestly I can bring up Nul Destroyer of Worlds and his smashing the earth with his hammer, not causing seismic activity like the Hulk does.

Avengers v4 #15

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To top this off, Carol was closer to the hammer smash and she didn't get knocked out. Noh-Varr did and he's taken hits from Sentry as well.

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In Regards to Durability

Carol has taken a Tachyon blast repetitive times, while the fact she was in-between fights. The tachyon blast blasted through a volcano top and also caused it to erupt. That suggest an insane amount of pressure.

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Why did I ask to make the composite for Cru virus? and Post Cru Virus you might ask? Forgot to put it in the original thread post... Supremegeneration and I agreed it was usable before the thread.

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She has an insane healing factor because of the Cru inside of her, their linked.

Speed

I've proven in my first scan that Stark can keep up with Carol. Let us further this:

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1) Blurred h2h combat (what we're going to be doing here) - 2) millisecond reaction times and a striking feat - 3) picosecond brain

The question is, will Carol be able to keep up with Stark's speed upgrades? Up to you to prove that.

Response to speed

Carol has fought at blur speed to.

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1. Carol has fought in blurred speed.

2. 3500 feet per second blitz equates to Mach 3.110204, Carol's not allowed to compete in flight tournaments because she'd embarrass that type of speed.

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3. The armor hacked something in a picosecond, not really combat related.

Skill

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We see that Stark can completely decimate Cap in h2h, using his training in multiple situations, and I added the last one for the lolz. Something was wrong with Stark and Rhodey, a trained military operative much like Carol, said he couldn't beat Stark in a fair fight.

Response to Skill

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1. The Cap thing is nice and all, but it doesn't come off as being able to perform Captain America's skill in hand to hand. What it does do is suggest the armor "knows his next move before (he) you makes it" It's anticipating his attacks by knowing his fighting style. Not fighting at the same skill level as Cap.

2. Carol is a soldier, knowledgeable in Kree fighting styles, knows judo and karate, as well as has trained with Captain America and Spider-Man.

Some images wont load so I'll post them.

3. Fighting Aim Agents (To top it off she was being tortured, she broke free and then she manhandled a couple guys till MODOK used the device he had to try an alter her mind.

4. This is an example of more technical fighting.

Conclusion

Gonna keep this short and simple: Carol is outclassed in every way possible. Any strategy you can make, I have a counter for. Good luck.

Response to Conclusion, your debate so far consist of who Stark has hit, but no real idea on his striking power, stuff similar if not better were provided for Carol and Spider-Man. You provided feats of him taking hits from Thor, I provided an instance with Nul. Your speed feat summed up to blitzing at the speed of Mach 3, I provided a feat of Carol suggesting it wouldn't be fair for her to race aircraft's who do the same. Your "skill" feat for Captain America suggest it's designed to anticipate "his" as in Captain America's movements. So far Carol isn't looking outclassed, I'd question Stark's inability to handle a proven to be weaker Carol.

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#23 Edited by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

So much out of context material.

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#25 Posted by agent41 (15704 posts) - - Show Bio

So much out of context material.

More out of context for IM or ms marvel?.

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#26 Edited by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41 said:
@ghostravage said:

So much out of context material.

More out of context for IM or ms marvel?.

PM it if you want to complain, don't derail the thread. Final opinions are for tags. Do you mind, adding me to that PM if you do to satisfy my curiosity.

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#27 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by Battle123axe (9049 posts) - - Show Bio

@supremegeneration: i meant that there were no soft/nice words, and you didnt mince phrases. I wasnt commenting on the actual quality of the post and how good the opener was, i apologize if you misunderstood it as so

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#29 Posted by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: My post remains the same, if someone's trying to call me out on something. Spent and entire day and Half finding the appearances of each scan and reading the stories though, so I'm curious to what has to be said.

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#30 Posted by Knightsofdarkness2 (8155 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#31 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11922 posts) - - Show Bio

So much out of context material.

If I used any, would you mind shooting me a quick PM, either asap or after the debate is over?

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#32 Edited by SupremeGeneration (11922 posts) - - Show Bio

@supremegeneration:A lot of your post confused me, but not in a bad way, I just wasn't sure what you were trying to say. Without further ado:

Intro Counters

This debate is taking place, because of the insertion that Iron Man outclasses Carol Danvers in "every way possible". Bendis and CW II didn't make Iron Man lose this thread, the combined histories of these two characters did. While your reading this keep in mind much weaker characters have matched Iron Man in combat, despite his several "upgrades" he's performed the same feats against specific characters throughout his comic history:

That's lowballing. I could say the same thing about Carol; weaker characters have matched her in combat.

I'd ask for suggested proof of Armors being stronger, not called more powerful but actually suggested to be stronger. As well as the material difference of these armors.

Not sure what you want me to show you. The classic armor has feats that are blown away by the armors I currently use. I'll try and show it throughout the debate, though.

I kind of already knew what to expect from this debate, so I did research and found context. Counter/Explanation to Ironman #24.

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Your going to have to show me an instance where Ms Marvel was said to be physically stronger in her standard form because of absorbing energy. I'll wait.

She's known for being stronger and more powerful because she absorbs energy. It's almost her whole deal; she absorbs energy to go Binary, doesn't she?

In the third scan Stark himself the inventor of the armor suggest she's strong enough to do it. He hits her a bit back and she sends him flying off with a kick. The rest of the fight shows us she wasn't even aware of her actions, if that tells us anything about the way she's fighting it suggest sloppy, not in the right mindset and not aware of her actions. Yet, Stark is still unable to subdue, or show of his "superiority" against Carol if anything he was struggling, she was unaware of what was going on.

Note: he says she's strong enough to do after she absorbs all that energy. You left that scan out. Again, look at how she says lifting that plane is the heaviest thing she ever lifted. Even classic Iron Man was seen helping lift that infamous compressed million ton rock from Avengers #159. He was struggling because he was holding back the entire fight. She was drunk and he didn't want to hurt her.

Carol Being Weakened Counters

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Ms. Marvel v2 #21 and #22 suggest Carol would become stronger, it was suggested three times before Ms. Marvel v2 #23 she looses her connection to Cru and becomes stronger.

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Alright, read the comics. My apologies. I thought you were talking about pre/post-Binary. Didn't know about this instance.

However, I must ask, why title it "Carol Being Weakened?" That's what confused me.

Striking

BOY this is a long one. Time to have fun.

What you showed did not represent greater striking ability, it actually comes off as Iron Man and Captain Marvel doing the same thing in a way. Iron Man didn’t get any special reaction from either Rulk or Hulk in the scan you posted, there was no indication of pain. What you showed was Iron Man has the ability to move both Hulks and then you went on to compare it to Carol blitzing a Hulk to the ground ironically. With a crater to top it all off in the Captain Marvel instance.

Alright, I'm just gonna break the below down.

Hulk v2 #2

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This comic right here, kind of gives us an idea the power difference between Rulk and Ironman.

Let's have a look at the entire fight:

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The double repulsor beam proceeds to do nothing. Why did I post this, even though Stark lost? Because I will never say that Stark is on the same level as Hulk/Hulk-esque characters (except maybe Shulk), however, he's not too far from them. Rulk smashes a plane on Stark and he's still standing. How does Captain Marvel do against Hulk-esque characters? You'll see below in a bit.

Hulk v2 #25

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Here we see Rulk's brain chemistry is altered affecting his powers. Banner suggesting he can't absorb energy anymore as well as being calmed. To top it all off for the majority of the assault Ross didn't seem ready to fight until the attack was ended by a third part. Stark did suggest he was cutting loose but to what extent is questionable factoring the rest of this in the picture.

He was calm in the "Womb" - not in his fight against Stark. Doesn't mean, as your scan so eloquently illustrates, that Iron Man didn't put the pain on Rulk.

Avengers Assemble

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I really don't understand why you would post this. How much weight is Hulk's head suppose to be that this is impressive. You know whose also capable of this feat?

It's not just moving Hulk's head back, it's moving him period. You wanted proof that Iron Man's armors have gone up over the years; how about the fact that this one moved Hulk while a Silver Centurion bullrush did squat to Joe Fixit?

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Do you have an issue number for that? Spider-Man has literally bled his knuckles from punching the Hulk so much, I genuinely doubt that has no context to it.

Avengers v5 #39

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I really don't get why this feat is thought so poorly of for Carol. If you pay attention to each panel it comes off pretty cool for her.

It's not necessarily poor, but nowhere near great. She did no lasting damage and got KO;d.

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Panel 1: Hulk is ripping apart War Machines piloted by Rhodey. Panel 2: Carol creates a sonic boom +, from such a small distance. Panel 3. We see Hulk on the ground eyes closed while Carol and Hawkeye are able to have a conversation.

I believe you're misinterpreting what happened. Hulk is on the ground, gets punched and Carol get's launched after he asks her "feel better?"

For 5 panels we don't know how Hulk's doing, and that's when we see him for the 6th, where somewhere between the 6th and 7th Carol gets BFR'd.

I'd say this is better than what you posted in regards to striking

No Caption Provided

Carol got BFR'd by Hulk. You can clearly see it in your third scan. You can't assume she was hurting him when he was there all chillax and whatnot and he asks her "feel better?" For all we know he was KO'd for less than a second. Or not at all, and it was artist misinterpretation.

Hulks power level in Time Runs Out

During his time with the Illuminati Banner injected himself to be in better control.

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Control =/= Power

Avengers v5 #8

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Shows that suggesting she can't inflict pain on Hulk is incorrect, this is one more powerful than Doc Green.

WHAT?! You're saying that this proves she can inflict pain on him, when he willingly let himself get flung back down with absolutely no pain while landing?!?! You kidding me right now? If you genuinely believe this is impressive, then I'll have to put an end to all that later on in the post.

Durability

I'm aware Thor has better striking power than Miss Marvel has durability, but you practically implied that Iron Man is as durable as Odin Force Thor's best blow in your post. "Not holding back","Unhindered", "Better striking feats". Thing is we can safely say Thor isn't striking him with the force he used against Gorr. This comes off as a toned down Thor to fit the story suited to tell. Lets stick to feats that we can credibly give. Cause honestly I can bring up Nul Destroyer of Worlds and his smashing the earth with his hammer, not causing seismic activity like the Hulk does.

Didn't necessarily mean to imply that. But he has great durability and the feat is credible - he didn't one-shot Iron Man, is what I meant to say. Again, I will never say that Stark is on the level of Thor/Hulk, but in a well-written story he can give them a good fight. However, I believe there was a bit of context left out: this was Thor right after receiving the OF iirc, so he was inexperienced. Still, even regular Thor has amazing striking.

Avengers v4 #15

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To top this off, Carol was closer to the hammer smash and she didn't get knocked out. Noh-Varr did and he's taken hits from Sentry as well.

Nice out of context and leaving scans out:

Part of the fight left outIMPORTANT NOTE: They're backwards, so read that from bottom to top.

Carol was MIA for a lot of the fight m8. Spider-Woman got to the fight before her. Not a showing you want to use. Iron Man has a slightly similar one:

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Grey Gargoyle became Mokk, Breaker of Faith, during Fear Itself. While the host body is nowhere near as powerful as Nul's, the hammers made all these foes at minimum sub-Thor level. The striking comes from an uru hammer. Instead of being MIA for most a fight like Carol, Stark is fine.

Carol has taken a Tachyon blast repetitive times, while the fact she was in-between fights. The tachyon blast blasted through a volcano top and also caused it to erupt. That suggest an insane amount of pressure.

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  1. I'm gonna need a hopeful scan issue for this here. In the second one, I quote, "exposure to it's [Power Stone] radiation turned Carol Danvers to Ms. Marvel..."
    1. She's referring to herself in third person
    2. Power Stone has nothing to do with her origin
  2. She gets hit... cool... You realize she's in pain though, right? And since the next page is left out, I could also assume she got KO'd...

Why did I ask to make the composite for Cru virus? and Post Cru Virus you might ask? Forgot to put it in the original thread post... Supremegeneration and I agreed it was usable before the thread.

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She has an insane healing factor because of the Cru inside of her, their linked.

Interesting...

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Nothing a good 'ole Extremis doesn't allow us to match. From growing back heels to growing new organs!

Speed

The formatting slightly confused me. Hope I'm getting this write:

Carol has fought at blur speed to.

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1. Carol has fought in blurred speed.

Noice, noice.

2. 3500 feet per second blitz equates to Mach 3.110204, Carol's not allowed to compete in flight tournaments because she'd embarrass that type of speed.

He's still operating reacting in milliseconds.

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3. The armor hacked something in a picosecond, not really combat related.

He explicitly stated "I can spend a few picoseconds." By your logic, embarrassing mach 3 isn't combat related, and it isn't. That's a travel feat, not a combat feat.

Skill

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1. The Cap thing is nice and all, but it doesn't come off as being able to perform Captain America's skill in hand to hand. What it does do is suggest the armor "knows his next move before (he) you makes it" It's anticipating his attacks by knowing his fighting style. Not fighting at the same skill level as Cap.

2. Carol is a soldier, knowledgeable in Kree fighting styles, knows judo and karate, as well as has trained with Captain America and Spider-Man.

Some images wont load so I'll post them.

3. Fighting Aim Agents (To top it off she was being tortured, she broke free and then she manhandled a couple guys till MODOK used the device he had to try an alter her mind.

4. This is an example of more technical fighting.

It wouldn't be too far of a stretch to say that he'd have files on Carol too, he had multiple files as seen in AXIS. However, if you want genuine Cap vs Iron Man:

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While not a win, he's skilled enough to not get embarrassed. I'll stand by the fact that Iron Man can win this, especially given his millisecond reactions.

Conclusion

Response to Conclusion, your debate so far consist of who Stark has hit, but no real idea on his striking power, stuff similar if not better were provided for Carol and Spider-Man.

It's a better showing to strike at characters than at things - characters have established durability, most "things" just don't. If I were you, I'd read your post again. To this point you have yet to post a striking feat, whereas moving both Rulk, Hulk, and making Sentry bleed are all striking feats that are actually impressive.

You provided feats of him taking hits from Thor, I provided an instance with Nul.

She MIA the majority of the fight, and Fear Itself proved that Thor > Nul anyways (although, if you ask me, it was more of a stalemate/forced BFR).

Your speed feat summed up to blitzing at the speed of Mach 3, I provided a feat of Carol suggesting it wouldn't be fair for her to race aircraft's who do the same.

Which is a travel feat, not a reaction/combat feat. Hitting at mach 3 + adapting to attacks in milliseconds > anything you've shown so far.

Your "skill" feat for Captain America suggest it's designed to anticipate "his" as in Captain America's movements. So far Carol isn't looking outclassed, I'd question Stark's inability to handle a proven to be weaker Carol.

Then you should look again. To this point, you have yetto show a solid striking feat, you've yet to show an unquestionable durability feat, and you've yet to show any combat/reaction feats. This is my conclusion, literally.

BUT WAIT!

*drumroll*

Side-by-Side Feat Comparison

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A team with Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, and others that don't matter when it comes to strength get wrecked by the Hulkbuster. Iron Man proceeds to take multiple shots and still go on fighting, before plot KOing it.

I'd post more, but you've basically seen them all from the Captain Marvel vs Iron Man thread. Instances with MODOK, classic instances with Thor, etc. I can bring them here for further debate if needed.

I have a scan of Iron Man one-shotting Carol Danvers. Sure, it was a cheap-shot, but it goes to show that he can still do it. A few more hits from more powerful armors and she goes down.

Internal/External Amps

You said there were going to be "energy punches" or something. Aside from the instance with Doc Green, where she failed to harm him and got one-shotted, you've yet to show this. Iron Man actually has quite a few different means of taking down Carol:

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While technically not an amp, his repulsor blade is a good shot at defeating Captain Marvel, whom I must reiterate: has thus far no reaction/travel feats. When it comes to other means of amping...

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Her punches would just fill his energy sources. He can even analyze alien energy and absorb that. Heck, in the first two scans he's absorbing things without actually connecting to them.

That's a wrap!

P.S: How many posts each?

Avatar image for krleavenger
#33 Edited by KrleAvenger (26078 posts) - - Show Bio

So much out of context material.

I was just about to say the same thing.

Avatar image for ecstaticgrace
#34 Edited by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio

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Intro Response

That's lowballing. I could say the same thing about Carol; weaker characters have matched her in combat.

You started this debate in suggestion, that much weaker armors have matched Captain Marvel. The problem I was bringing up is much weaker character’s than Carol have done the same to Stark. This is the problem with depending on who they've fought to gauge where they stand physically. The problem with using fights against Hulk and Thor is we could suggest that's low-balling those characters as well, if we compare feats between them. It seems a bit double standard to use the feats one-way and not the other.

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Not sure what you want me to show you. The classic armor has feats that are blown away by the armors I currently use. I'll try and show it throughout the debate, though.

I want you to show me the statements that say the armor’s that are being used in this thread, are stronger. Will see how these feats turn out though.

She's known for being stronger and more powerful because she absorbs energy. It's almost her whole deal; she absorbs energy to go Binary, doesn't she?

Keyword is more powerful, nothing shown shows absorbing energy makes her physically stronger or faster. Your suggesting how that’s how Carol's powers work but having nothing to show for it.

Note: he says she's strong enough to do after she absorbs all that energy. You left that scan out. Again, look at how she says lifting that plane is the heaviest thing she ever lifted. Even classic Iron Man was seen helping lift that infamous compressed million ton rock from Avengers #159. He was struggling because he was holding back the entire fight. She was drunk and he didn't want to hurt her.

I quoted the post where you showed Carol absorbing the energy. You've yet to prove Carol absorbing energy amplifies her strength, so what sense is there to suggest that it was mentioned after absorbing energy. I don’t remember her trying to remove his helmet beforehand, given her mind state it’s hard to suggest she’s even focused on any objective other than harming Stark. Nothing in the dialogue of the scans posted show that the suggestion of Stark holding back is a valid argument. It doesn’t help though that even if he was holding back he was incapable of doing much harm when he did hit her.

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Lets compare when they hit it each other in the fight.

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  • 1. "She's strong if I don't". I'll note that sure she absorbed power, but nowhere is it stated so far that energy absorption increases her strength.
  • 2. This follows the first scan. Note: It was a cheap shot but unlike most character's Iron Man isn't someone who presumably can tense himself. He's a guy in armor so his durability should logically reflect the material the armor is made out of.
  • 3. Homerun!
  • lets also keep in mind skill is effected and Carol was blacked out, like the images below show.
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In regards to "I don't think, I ever lifted as much." keep in mind this comic is from 2003, Carol was stated like already shown to have gotten stronger in a 2008 comic.

There's also the convenient lack of acknowledgment on your part to include key parts of Iron Man v3 #24 that are made more mutual if not favorable for Carol. Also lets look at this "millions of tons feat"

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1. "I don't know how many millions of tons this is..." First this demonstrates there's no knowledge of weight on Iron Man's part. Second this is a shared feat with a character (Thor) who has feats that dwarf this, Vision is also there. The feat doesn't become impressive because Thor's there. Third given the size and this appears to be stone (You agree to this by saying "Million ton rock") the math honestly doesn't add up.

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1.) Component of a Plane, note this suggested to be lightweight material for a plane so it gives us a base. 2.) This shows us the density of weight (167lb)of aluminum by the cubic feet. 3.) Shows us the density of stone by the cubic feet, ranges from 144-175 lbs 4.) Shows us factors to weigh in (Note: They have the same amount of force being applied since its both on Earth), Mass is how much space an object takes up. I can give the stone the benefit of not being hollow but in regards to size it's completely dwarfed by the air plane. Evidence would suggest if this is stone there's no way it can be in the millions of tons range, just by the virtue of size.

Source

2. "Warbird listen I need you..." Doesn't really help Stark's case on being stronger.

3. "The people on this jet need you. I can't save them alone..."

4. Will admit Carol hasn't always been super impressive in regards to strength, but we have to keep in mind the time period.

Even if for some reason we give Stark the benefit of the doubt with the millions of tons comment, nothing you've provided suggest future armors can replicate that amount of weight.

Response to Carol being weakened

Alright, read the comics. My apologies. I thought you were talking about pre/post-Binary. Didn't know about this instance.

However, I must ask, why title it "Carol Being Weakened?" That's what confused me.

I titled it Carol being weakened, cause I wasn't thinking, so in turn didn't word it as I should have. Should of titled it "Confirmation on Carol getting a strength boost" or something along those lines.

Response to strength claim

Let's have a look at the entire fight:

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The double repulsor beam proceeds to do nothing. Why did I post this, even though Stark lost? Because I will never say that Stark is on the same level as Hulk/Hulk-esque characters (except maybe Shulk), however, he's not too far from them. Rulk smashes a plane on Stark and he's still standing. How does Captain Marvel do against Hulk-esque characters? You'll see below in a bit.

The problem with your insertions, is that how impressive is Rulk smashing a plane on Stark. Would it be less impressive if The Thing smashed a plane on Iron Man? The problem with your usage of these scans is that even if Tony takes enraged punches from Hulk are readers supposed to assume this suggest that Hulk’s best striking feat < Iron Man’s durability. That would be pretty convenient for Stark wouldn’t it. There’s a reason a writer will have someone like Rulk and Hulk duking it out cause seismic activity, and a reason fights between Heavyweights and Iron Man just causes construction damage around the city. I’m sure we’re all aware of what Rulk and Hulk have shown capable of doing the question is what has Iron Man been shown to take on his own merit?

He was calm in the "Womb" - not in his fight against Stark. Doesn't mean, as your scan so eloquently illustrates, that Iron Man didn't put the pain on Rulk.

I really don’t understand what from Hulk v2 #25 came off to you as a mutual party fight. I’d word that a bit better considering Rulk didn’t fight back, like at all. Let’s look at it again though to make sure.

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Fight analysis and comparison: Before the start of the "fight" your claiming is impressive, Rulk was both calmed and tampered with physiologically by Banner. Before the Carol/Hulk encounter hell during the Time Runs Out event, Banner injected himself with a device to get better control. We know it was a limitation because Beast said it was, similar to how Ross said what Banner did to him is. Rulk was in the middle of a fight, Ironically similar to Hulk in Avengers #39. Iron Man cheapshotted/blitzed Rulk, Ironically similar to how Carol did the same to Hulk in both "fights". The difference being, that in the Carol one she didn't have to not let up after the initial blitz. We also conveniently never see Rulk hit Iron Man.

In regards Banner > Ross

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it's safe to say Banner messed with Ross's physiology, so they didn't have to be to troubled by him. If he turned on them. The scan above shows there's no love gain, just because they were working together. Same issue by the way Hulk v2 #25

It's not just moving Hulk's head back, it's moving him period. You wanted proof that Iron Man's armors have gone up over the years; how about the fact that this one moved Hulk while a Silver Centurion bullrush did squat to Joe Fixit?

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Do you have an issue number for that? Spider-Man has literally bled his knuckles from punching the Hulk so much, I genuinely doubt that has no context to it.

Hulk weighs what? I’m pretty sure it’s nothing above 2 tons especially if we factor the instance is moving Hulk’s head which shouldn’t even be half a ton. The scan is from Peter Parker: Spider-Man Vol2 #14. This is the fight where Spider-Man bled from punching Hulk. It's not brought up to suggest that Spider-Man can fight Hulk its brought up to suggest turning Hulk's head with a punch isn't an amazing feat in regards to the characters facing here, given someone with Spider-Man's strength can do the same thing (hurting his hands by getting physically more hits in than either of us have shown for either Carol or Tony.)

Look how exciting this is as a feat

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Or, this instance which isn’t out of Carol’s capabilities or much of many characters for that matter.

If you’re going to quote an instance you might as well provide the scans. It’s honestly hard to see at this point how Iron Man is even physically superior to Joe Fixit with this argument not providing any proof outside fights.

It's not necessarily poor, but nowhere near great. She did no lasting damage and got KO;d.

Nowhere in my post did it deny Carol got oneshotted “Exiting the Atmosphere, We just lost Carol” Even looking at the scans I provided there’s nothing hiding the fact she was BFR’d into space. There’s no proof she was knocked out though, if we’re honestly going by the same logic she did no damage to Hulk off depictions. It wouldn’t be fair to use the term “KO’d” what did happen was “BFR” and this doesn’t help any superiority case in comparison with Iron Man fights cause all this shows is that Hulk punched her with enough force to go past the exosphere (furthest region of the atmosphere).

I believe you're misinterpreting what happened. Hulk is on the ground, gets punched and Carol get's launched after he asks her "feel better?"

Nowhere in my post did I suggest none of that happened… I didn’t know I had to quote the scans that I posted. I was hoping or assumed and am still hoping users can see what’s provided in the scans posted. It’s strange how previously you were chalking up Iron Man being able to push Hulk’s head a few inches in a direction as a great feat, but suggest an in battle Hulk being blitzed (cheapshot) into the ground with a crater to show for it is inferior. To let this sink in for a moment… a head turn for Hulk, and pushing Rulk who’s not making contact with the ground.

Carol got BFR'd by Hulk. You can clearly see it in your third scan. You can't assume she was hurting him when he was there all chillax and whatnot and he asks her "feel better?" For all we know he was KO'd for less than a second. Or not at all, and it was artist misinterpretation.

I’m aware Carol got BFR’d the part you’re quoting me on shows I’m aware of it. I reposted the entire scene that included Hulk and Carol in it to provide full context. I didn’t think I’d have to restate what’s shown in the scans I posted as well, if you’re able to read I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you what the scans posted state. My part in bringing up the scans was to show what comes prior to Carol getting BFR’d by Hulk. It’s to show she did more than push Hulk’s body. The end result is obvious whether it’s Carol or Tony. The artist interpretation thing can be placed both ways, and even a second would be impressive, considering Hulkbuster armors don’t accomplish that. Strange to assume that Carol and Hawkeye can have a conversation all the span of Hulk blinking, its also weird and brings into question if Hulk wasn't stunned why did he not do anything during the Clint and Carol conversation?

Control =/= Power

Hulk’s are fueled by their rage, what Beast suggested was what Banner did was a limitation. It’s quite similar to what Banner did to Ross in the same issue, Iron Man “fought” (accurate term would be "jumped") the Red Hulk.

WHAT?! You're saying that this proves she can inflict pain on him, when he willingly let himself get flung back down with absolutely no pain while landing?!?! You kidding me right now? If you genuinely believe this is impressive, then I'll have to put an end to all that later on in the post.

It’s strange cause not to long ago you said “It's not just moving Hulk's head back, it's moving him period.” Is it not impressive anymore, when Carol does it? After Starbrand blasted Hulk into space, Carol sent by Steve got Hulk out of orbit with a fastball special. Really not seeing how that’s less impressive than the acclaimed moving him period and claiming Iron Man did "damage".

Didn't necessarily mean to imply that. But he has great durability and the feat is credible - he didn't one-shot Iron Man, is what I meant to say. Again, I will never say that Stark is on the level of Thor/Hulk, but in a well-written story he can give them a good fight. However, I believe there was a bit of context left out: this was Thor right after receiving the OF iirc, so he was inexperienced. Still, even regular Thor has amazing striking.

Then why bring it up? How is it credible if your not willing to state how much force Iron Man is taking? If you're not going to state that Iron Man is on the level of Hulk/Thor why bring up he's lasted in fights? Why bring up regular Thor has amazing striking feats(my insertion), if your not trying to suggest that Iron Man has the durability to take these amazing striking feats? If regular Thor's highest striking feat is factored against Iron Man's highest durability how do they stand? The problem here is your in-explicitly making a suggestion, but can't outright state it, for obvious reasons. You can't claim PIS for Wolverine and Spidey hanging on Hulk or Thor's level in fights, and suggest Iron Man doing the same isn't any less. When Hulk and Thor don't operate at their best, its safe to say the plot demands them not to be at their best.

Nice out of context and leaving scans out:

Part of the fight left outIMPORTANT NOTE: They're backwards, so read that from bottom to top.

Carol was MIA for a lot of the fight m8. Spider-Woman got to the fight before her. Not a showing you want to use.

I didn't leave out anything that was important or relevant. If Carol was shown to have been knocked out in the encounter, it would of been included, but there is no evidence pointing to it. The last instance we see Carol and Nul in the comic (before Jessica fights Nul) she was completely conscious, and then when we do see Jessica vs Nul we have no idea what happened to Carol.

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If I missed where she was ko'd, be my guest and point it out.

Response to durability

.

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  1. I'm gonna need a hopeful scan issue for this here. In the second one, I quote, "exposure to it's [Power Stone] radiation turned Carol Danvers to Ms. Marvel..."
    1. She's referring to herself in third person
    2. Power Stone has nothing to do with her origin
  2. She gets hit... cool... You realize she's in pain though, right? And since the next page is left out, I could also assume she got KO'd...

Scene happened in Ms Marvel v1 #4

1. Carol’s had several retcons. An Iron Man Issue told her origin story and this was in the 2000s

  1. Carol use to do that a lot, she didn’t even know who Ms Marvel was herself when she first became her.

  2. Ok? What does this mean?

2. She was knocked out.. From the Volcano/cave in. My point was that she has taken Destructor’s tachyon beam and been able to continue and fight. The Volcano instance posted was to show what the tachyon beam is capable of, not the fact that Ms Marvel survived a volcano and suggest she was still conscious. It’s important to add (keep in mind if/when reading) that both times the Destructor has combated Carol it’s been after she was fatigued from combat. The first with The Scorpion and the second against Doomsday Man, and she to the very least has either stalemated him or beat him despite this.

Iron Man has a slightly similar one:

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Grey Gargoyle became Mokk, Breaker of Faith, during Fear Itself. While the host body is nowhere near as powerful as Nul's, the hammers made all these foes at minimum sub-Thor level. The striking comes from an uru hammer. Instead of being MIA for most a fight like Carol, Stark is fine.

I hope your aware that Grey Gargoyle has struggled against Grulk.. Worthy Gargoyle Beating up Iron Man isn't a feat that suggest Iron Man is superior to Carol, it's a feat that shows where Gargoyle being Worthy stands. The scans below pretty much speak for themselves.

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Your insertion also of the word fine is interesting to use considering just like Carol in the Worthy Hulk instance Stark had to run away from someone vastly inferior to Doc Green. Beating up Iron Man doesn't make him superior to Carol.

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Response to healing

.

Interesting...

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Nothing a good 'ole Extremis doesn't allow us to match. From growing back heels to growing new organs!

Problem here, is match isn’t the proper term to use based on those scans. Cru (someone Carol shares a healing factor with) had her head blasted off and in the next panel had one again.

  1. All this basically says is “Grew new organs” it implies he grew new organs, sure, but we get no idea on that scan alone on how long it took, or why he needed to grow to new organs.

  2. That heel feat looks like it took quite some time. In one the scan we see him cut it and then the next scan implies he slept in between then. That would imply it took anywhere from when he was not home and was there at the missile all the way to when he woke up at home to completely heal, given he woke up surprised his foot was healed.

I don't see how you've shown the Extremis healing factor to be comparable to what's shown below v

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What you’ve shown is impressive in the it’ll probably keep Iron Man alive scenario, but it’s not practical if any serious harm happens in a combat scenario. Is Carol suppose to let Iron Man sleep off any harm she does to him? This doesn’t match the Cru healing.

Response to speed

He's still operating reacting in milliseconds.

Yes he’s operating his armor, he’s constantly operating his armor at any given moment he’s in it. Operating by textbook definition is “to control the function of”. He didn’t react to anything in the scan you provided though his armor “adjusted to the explosion.” His armor reacted, given his brain is suggested to be like a computer in the extremis.

He explicitly stated "I can spend a few picoseconds." By your logic, embarrassing mach 3 isn't combat related, and it isn't. That's a travel feat, not a combat feat.

How does “I can spend a few picoseconds” (note: hacking) transform into fighting anywhere in the timeframe of Picoseconds? The answer is it doesn’t you can show statements of him hacking a computer at any given time frame it doesn’t imply he can fight at that same time frame. The scan practically states it’s a travel speed feat “Then hail him with the equivalent of a steel ball ‘traveling’ at 3500 feet per second” That's not something difficult for Carol to replicate that's a blitz and a blitz is travel speed.

This isn't a theory because it was actually outright stated during the Extremis arc, I don't if you didn't read it, or aren't interpreting what the comic stated cause it doesn't favor the notion that Tony can fight at the speeds your suggesting.

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"Processing information...like a supercomputer." "Your normal thought process...functions at a standard human level." Meaning the thought to punch, kick, dodge isn't at the speed you've been claim it's at.

Response to skill

It wouldn't be too far of a stretch to say that he'd have files on Carol too, he had multiple files as seen in AXIS. However, if you want genuine Cap vs Iron Man:

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While not a win, he's skilled enough to not get embarrassed. I'll stand by the fact that Iron Man can win this, especially given his millisecond reactions.

There’s no proof that’s the case though, this is the same fallacy you used early in your rebuttal. The Fallacy of an Unwarranted Notion

The Cap scene is pretty impressive, given Cap is skilled and has superhuman stats. Stark getting two hits in surprised me. Carol however has also faced a skilled opponent after being grazed by a bullet.

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The difference between the Tony and Carol fight is Carol wasn't sparring she was fighting for her life, Carol also won her fight.

Iron Man hasn’t shown any millisecond reaction, his armor adjusted to an explosion. It’s shown no capability in this thread so far to suggest it would provide any reaction against a physical assault either.

Response to conclusion

It's a better showing to strike at characters than at things - characters have established durability, most "things" just don't. If I were you, I'd read your post again. To this point you have yet to post a striking feat, whereas moving both Rulk, Hulk, and making Sentry bleed are all striking feats that are actually impressive.

Striking a character is not superior to striking an object, the reason Hulk and Thor are highly regarded in strength is that they have feats against objects. Anyone can show Spider-man rocking the Hulk for example, they just can't show Spider-man doing anything to warrant his ability to do so. Noone would be able to tell you how much pressure is being distributed behind a punch. We can give you the logical maximum of pressure character's are striking at with reference to what they've personally have done on their own. Aka punching objects

She MIA the majority of the fight, and Fear Itself proved that Thor > Nul anyways (although, if you ask me, it was more of a stalemate/forced BFR).

Show why that matters? Where's she's shown unconscious or badly harmed. When we see her arrive again we see no bodily injury on Carol. I don't get how you got Thor > Nul from Fear Itself. I have no opinion on Thor vs Hulk but in Fear Itself. Thor says he could never beat Nul/Hulk "now" and that he "never could". Thor force BFR'd him sure, but then Thor passes out and we see Nul still completely conscious.

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Which is a travel feat, not a reaction/combat feat. Hitting at mach 3 + adapting to attacks in milliseconds > anything you've shown so far.

He didn't adapt to an attack.. his armor reacted to an explosion. Keyword "armor" it's shown no capability of doing that in combat to lets say strikes for example. Show us him dodging an attack in a millisecond and then maybe (given the context) it will be usable in regards to combat. To top it all off he charges up his elbow repulsor (propulsion) and then the scan even says "traveling" in reference to him blitzing Crimson Dynamo.

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Then you should look again. To this point, you have yetto show a solid striking feat, you've yet to show an unquestionable durability feat, and you've yet to show any combat/reaction feats. This is my conclusion, literally.

Again with the combat/reaction stuff. I don't know if your unaware of how Extremis works or lying. In regards to what I've shown everything in regards to speed matches if not exceeds what you've shown for Stark

Response to Side-by-Side comparison

BUT WAIT!

*drumroll*

Side-by-Side Feat Comparison

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A team with Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, and others that don't matter when it comes to strength get wrecked by the Hulkbuster. Iron Man proceeds to take multiple shots and still go on fighting, before plot KOing it.

I'd post more, but you've basically seen them all from the Captain Marvel vs Iron Man thread. Instances with MODOK, classic instances with Thor, etc. I can bring them here for further debate if needed.

I have a scan of Iron Man one-shotting Carol Danvers. Sure, it was a cheap-shot, but it goes to show that he can still do it. A few more hits from more powerful armors and she goes down.

Side by side comparison of Iron Man v4 #12 doesn’t work.

  1. It shows Carol being “knocked out” quotes on for being a possibility, given we never see her hit and by depiction Carol could of been thrown/bfr'd/or helping by-standards. The instance is speculative at best.

  2. The Avengers are shown to be on panel for the first time in the book, where Carol is seemingly thrown having engaged the Hulkbuster/Model 31. Why is this a problem? Because if they were already fighting we as readers don’t know how Carol or She-Hulk performed against the Hulkbuster, they could’ve taken anywhere from 1 to 10 punches for all we know. We do know however that Tony only took two hits for a fact.

  3. We also know that even though Stark was subconsciously piloting the Model 31 HulkBuster that he didn’t beat it by physical means. So even if we ignore never seeing Carol exactly hit, or never seeing Carol unconscious and assume The Hulkbuster knocked her out, this feat can’t suggest Stark is superior physically by the fact he beat it by non physical means.

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I don't understand how you think this can imply Stark is physically superior. This again falls into the fallacy of making assumptions that he outperformed Carol and on top of that She-Hulk. The fight starts off panel... We don't know how many hits if any, most of the avengers even took. On top of that Iron Man doesn't beat the Mark 31 by physical means, making any superiority claim off this instance ludicrous.

Response to Amps

Internal/External Amps

You said there were going to be "energy punches" or something. Aside from the instance with Doc Green, where she failed to harm him and got one-shotted, you've yet to show this. Iron Man actually has quite a few different means of taking down Carol:

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While technically not an amp, his repulsor blade is a good shot at defeating Captain Marvel, whom I must reiterate: has thus far no reaction/travel feats. When it comes to other means of amping...

I'm fine with using the repulsor blade, despite it not being technically energy striking. I think I've proven already that Gargoyle before the Worthy amp wasn't all that impressive. On top of that if he does get a good hit in, the Cru healing factor showed regeneration to getting a head blasted off. Into the next panel where it's there again.

Response to energy absorption claim

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Her punches would just fill his energy sources. He can even analyze alien energy and absorb that. Heck, in the first two scans he's absorbing things without actually connecting to them.

Just looking at one of the instances from those scans you provided brings your energy absorption claim to question. Lets look at third scan from Mighty Avengers v1 #11

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The glorious context. It's interesting seeing Carol absorb the radiation of the armor from the blast that caused Stark to become unresponsive. I think it's also important to note you've shown no proof he can absorb energy irradiated punches. The scans you provided beforehand kind of contradicts that claim.

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He can absorb direct lightning from the sky, which would imply energy blast and what not. But the scans you provided don't show him absorbing the lightning from Mljonir strikes

Major Gripes

Scaling off other character: You started off implying Stark's durability allows him to fight characters like Thor by showing him taking hits from them. You stated Thor has amazing striking as if that implies how much force he's hitting Stark with.

Lack of proof: You keep suggesting Stark's armors are stronger than they were in his early appearances but you provided nothing to show for it, but your word. Or claims that his armor allows him to fight at picoseconds, when the very series rebuts that.

Don't have all the info: You use fights that start off panel as proof as physical inferiority, and don't bring up stuff like Stark having to knock himself out to beat the armor

Lack of certainty: You use terms like "not to far of a stretch".

Circumstantial Bias: You show a scan of a character doing the exact same thing other characters your claiming are inferior

Irrelevance: Whether Hulk oneshot Carol or not, it's a meaningless point. Iron Man isn't Hulk

Forgetful: You tend to forget or not factor that most of your scans predate Carol's physical amp by Cru in 2008

That's a wrap!

P.S: How many posts each?

I'd like for us to wrap it up. I've been online to long... and want to do other stuff :P. Next post be the conclusions, sum up whatever we feel needs to be mentioned?

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#35 Edited by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by blackpantherisb (7260 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#37 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#38 Posted by poeticwarrior (3526 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag please.

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#39 Edited by SupremeGeneration (11922 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecstaticgrace: Didn't get the tag for your finished post. I'll respond ASAP with a conclusion.

Question: there are 2 kinds of conclusions. 1 where we just finish statements and that's it and another where we counter the last post anyways. Wadda ya want?

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#40 Edited by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio

@supremegeneration: Feel free to conclude however you feel gets your point across, I'll do the same.

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#41 Edited by SupremeGeneration (11922 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecstaticgrace:

Pre-for-the-voters

You guys might think this is a bit lazy, and it admittedly is, but there's a single exit ticket that I believe won this entire match. Before I showcase what this is, I'm going to do semi-thorough counters of only the most important things.You might also notice that this post has a lot of not-so-nice stuff. I'm tired, and that's not excuse, but I'm not trying to excuse myself. If I wanted to excuse myself, I would've edited this today even though I finished yesterday.

Master Counters

The problem with using fights against Hulk and Thor is we could suggest that's low-balling those characters as well, if we compare feats between them. It seems a bit double standard to use the feats one-way and not the other.

This is a matter of opinion. There's a scan of Hulk failing to crush Iron Man's faceplate - that's a feat for Stark, but it's in no way a low showing for Hulk given Stark's durability feats. This was an example to show that it's an opinion as that scan is unfortunately Modular Mark II, not any that I'm using.

1. "I don't know how many millions of tons this is..." First this demonstrates there's no knowledge of weight on Iron Man's part.

Never said it was a solo feat, but he had to be carrying a lot of that weight, otherwise Thor would've done this solo.

3.) Shows us the density of stone by the cubic feet, ranges from 144-175 lbs 4.) Shows us factors to weigh in (Note: They have the same amount of force being applied since its both on Earth), Mass is how much space an object takes up. I can give the stone the benefit of not being hollow but in regards to size it's completely dwarfed by the air plane. Evidence would suggest if this is stone there's no way it can be in the millions of tons range, just by the virtue of size.

Are you seriously arguing physics in comic books? The rock was gravity-compressed by Graviton iirc. There's no physics similar to ours in comic books. Alright, that's a lie, what I'm trying to say is that you're attempting to BS your way into making everyone think you're not lowballing.

The problem with your insertions, is that how impressive is Rulk smashing a plane on Stark. Would it be less impressive if The Thing smashed a plane on Iron Man? The problem with your usage of these scans is that even if Tony takes enraged punches from Hulk are readers supposed to assume this suggest that Hulk’s best striking feat < Iron Man’s durability. That would be pretty convenient for Stark wouldn’t it. There’s a reason a writer will have someone like Rulk and Hulk duking it out cause seismic activity, and a reason fights between Heavyweights and Iron Man just causes construction damage around the city. I’m sure we’re all aware of what Rulk and Hulk have shown capable of doing the question is what has Iron Man been shown to take on his own merit?

Jesus Christ, WHAT?! I'm ATHEIST and saying that. YES it would be less impressive if Thing did that because Rulk is stronger than Thing! Hulk and Rulk are two very well-known characters, the readers will most likely know of their striking capabilities. You're trying to lowball my scans every chance you get by BSing your own logic into it. I, at some points, can't even understand what you're saying.

I really don’t understand what from Hulk v2 #25 came off to you as a mutual party fight. I’d word that a bit better considering Rulk didn’t fight back, like at all. Let’s look at it again though to make sure.

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Fight analysis and comparison: Before the start of the "fight" your claiming is impressive, Rulk was both calmed and tampered with physiologically by Banner. Before the Carol/Hulk encounter hell during the Time Runs Out event, Banner injected himself with a device to get better control. We know it was a limitation because Beast said it was, similar to how Ross said what Banner did to him is. Rulk was in the middle of a fight, Ironically similar to Hulk in Avengers #39. Iron Man cheapshotted/blitzed Rulk, Ironically similar to how Carol did the same to Hulk in both "fights". The difference being, that in the Carol one she didn't have to not let up after the initial blitz. We also conveniently never see Rulk hit Iron Man.

You just wasted an entire paragraph. I never displayed this as a durability feat, which you assume I did, but rather as a strength feat. After the initial attack, Rulk was prepared for attacks, and Iron Man hurt him. That's all I'm trying to prove. You keep twisting every little thing I say.

Nowhere in my post did it deny Carol got oneshotted “Exiting the Atmosphere, We just lost Carol” Even looking at the scans I provided there’s nothing hiding the fact she was BFR’d into space. There’s no proof she was knocked out though, if we’re honestly going by the same logic she did no damage to Hulk off depictions. It wouldn’t be fair to use the term “KO’d” what did happen was “BFR” and this doesn’t help any superiority case in comparison with Iron Man fights cause all this shows is that Hulk punched her with enough force to go past the exosphere (furthest region of the atmosphere).

If she was simply BFR'd she would've flown back. #Logic

Then why bring it up? How is it credible if your not willing to state how much force Iron Man is taking? If you're not going to state that Iron Man is on the level of Hulk/Thor why bring up he's lasted in fights? Why bring up regular Thor has amazing striking feats(my insertion), if your not trying to suggest that Iron Man has the durability to take these amazing striking feats? If regular Thor's highest striking feat is factored against Iron Man's highest durability how do they stand? The problem here is your in-explicitly making a suggestion, but can't outright state it, for obvious reasons. You can't claim PIS for Wolverine and Spidey hanging on Hulk or Thor's level in fights, and suggest Iron Man doing the same isn't any less. When Hulk and Thor don't operate at their best, its safe to say the plot demands them not to be at their best.

...

I literally can't anymore. You twist everything to get it to go your way. Thor's striking is well-known throughout comics, so him hitting Stark and Stark surviving is a feat for Stark. How much simpler can it get? You're saying that because the force can't be measured then it doesn't apply. That's literally what you're saying. Me saying Iron Man is NOT on Hulk/Thor then showing that he can last against them isn't a matter of suggesting he is, it's showing that the gap between them isn't a lot.

Your durability section is everywhere. All I grabbed from that was "Carol got KO'd by a volcano cave-in."

Your insertion also of the word fine is interesting to use considering just like Carol in the Worthy Hulk instance Stark had to run away from someone vastly inferior to Doc Green. Beating up Iron Man doesn't make him superior to Carol.

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Whilst Carol remained MIA for the majority of a fight, Stark actually took a couple of hits. You make it seem like Worthy Gargoyle one-shotted Stark or something.

Yes he’s operating his armor, he’s constantly operating his armor at any given moment he’s in it. Operating by textbook definition is “to control the function of”. He didn’t react to anything in the scan you provided though his armor “adjusted to the explosion.” His armor reacted, given his brain is suggested to be like a computer in the extremis.

Fine, the armor reacted. I'm discussing both parties, so it doesn't really matter. It's still reactions in milliseconds.

There is one point I will concede though - the picosecond scan. I misread that.

There’s no proof that’s the case though, this is the same fallacy you used early in your rebuttal. The Fallacy of an Unwarranted Notion

It's a logical assumption nonetheless, you can use these fancy terms all you like.

By this point, it was unbearable to counter. Sorry voters.

So... I waited till next day, and decided I could continue a few more. The below is anything I might've missed yesterday or after where I stopped yesterday.

He didn't adapt to an attack.. his armor reacted to an explosion. Keyword "armor" it's shown no capability of doing that in combat to lets say strikes for example. Show us him dodging an attack in a millisecond and then maybe (given the context) it will be usable in regards to combat. To top it all off he charges up his elbow repulsor (propulsion) and then the scan even says "traveling" in reference to him blitzing Crimson Dynamo.

An explosion is an attack. Do you not know what an attack is? He blitzed Dynamo, yes, which is better than anything you've shown thus far. Carol, in this debate, can fly at like Mach 4 but can't react to jack squat.

Again with the combat/reaction stuff. I don't know if your unaware of how Extremis works or lying. In regards to what I've shown everything in regards to speed matches if not exceeds what you've shown for Stark

WHAT HAVE YOU SHOWN FOR SPEED?! A statement that she's faster than some diddly duck planes and dropping a phone at Mach 4?!

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Do you know how to apply outer smarts to this kind of stuff? Are you happy now? He's Mach 8.7. Keep trying. Jeez.

The glorious context. It's interesting seeing Carol absorb the radiation of the armor from the blast that caused Stark to become unresponsive. I think it's also important to note you've shown no proof he can absorb energy irradiated punches. The scans you provided beforehand kind of contradicts that claim.

He can absorb direct lightning from the sky, which would imply energy blast and what not. But the scans you provided don't show him absorbing the lightning from Mljonir strikes

Alright, this is another one I'll gladly give you. However, Carol's "energy punches" are much different. She has energy surrounding her punches, which could be absorbed.

I quoted the post where you showed Carol absorbing the energy. You've yet to prove Carol absorbing energy amplifies her strength, so what sense is there to suggest that it was mentioned after absorbing energy. I don’t remember her trying to remove his helmet beforehand, given her mind state it’s hard to suggest she’s even focused on any objective other than harming Stark. Nothing in the dialogue of the scans posted show that the suggestion of Stark holding back is a valid argument. It doesn’t help though that even if he was holding back he was incapable of doing much harm when he did hit her.

Do you know what "Holding Back" means? It means not trying to harm. You can't use Stark holding back against a drunk Carol as a feat for Carol, when he was explicitly trying not to harm her.

If you’re going to quote an instance you might as well provide the scans. It’s honestly hard to see at this point how Iron Man is even physically superior to Joe Fixit with this argument not providing any proof outside fights.

I'm not providing proof outside of fights because fights are the best proof. What's better: striking and harming the Hulk or breaking a big rock? I'd be willing to bet a bit that you'd say breaking the rock is better, which is why you're going to lose this debate: you keep trying to apply your own logic. That's not how this works. The rules aren't dictated by you.

The Cap scene is pretty impressive, given Cap is skilled and has superhuman stats. Stark getting two hits in surprised me. Carol however has also faced a skilled opponent after being grazed by a bullet.

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The difference between the Tony and Carol fight is Carol wasn't sparring she was fighting for her life, Carol also won her fight.

You've got to be kidding me. Look at my scan again. It's like the CW Arrow vs Deathstroke fight - they are ACTUALLY fighting but it cuts back to flashbacks of them sparring.

Striking a character is not superior to striking an object, the reason Hulk and Thor are highly regarded in strength is that they have feats against objects. Anyone can show Spider-man rocking the Hulk for example, they just can't show Spider-man doing anything to warrant his ability to do so. Noone would be able to tell you how much pressure is being distributed behind a punch. We can give you the logical maximum of pressure character's are striking at with reference to what they've personally have done on their own. Aka punching objects

The reason Hulk and Thor are highly regarded in strength is because they can hurt characters with a consistent durability. Read this: "Anyone can show Spider-man rocking the Hulk for example, they just can't show Spider-man doing anything to warrant his ability to do so" and tell me if it makes sense to you. Read it out loud. If a consistent writer to two characters can show character A hurting character B, then they just DID show that they have the ability to do so. Are you serious right now?!

Gripes Countering

Scaling off other character: You started off implying Stark's durability allows him to fight characters like Thor by showing him taking hits from them. You stated Thor has amazing striking as if that implies how much force he's hitting Stark with.

Thor's striking feats are well-known enough, combined with a "no holding back statement," one can make a logical assumption. There doesn't need to any numbers or psi or whatever for it to be impressive. That's been your mistake this entire debate.

Lack of proof: You keep suggesting Stark's armors are stronger than they were in his early appearances but you provided nothing to show for it, but your word. Or claims that his armor allows him to fight at picoseconds, when the very series rebuts that.

I gave you picosecond point, that was my fault. As for lack of proof, same can be said for you. I'll show you in just a bit.

Don't have all the info: You use fights that start off panel as proof as physical inferiority, and don't bring up stuff like Stark having to knock himself out to beat the armor

You left out Carol being MIA for multiple pages in a fight. I explicitly stated that Stark won by PIS (not exact words but I'm 100% sure I never said Stark was winning that fight in a fair match).

Lack of certainty: You use terms like "not to far of a stretch".

That's not lack of certainty, that's use of logic and analyzation to come to a point.

Forgetful: You tend to forget or not factor that most of your scans predate Carol's physical amp by Cru in 2008

Multiple scans you've yet to show as well.

Conclusion/Most Important Note To Voters

Up till this point, my opponent has shown very few scans for Danvers herself. He spent most of his time trying to debunk my scans so hard, that he forgot to tell us why Carol wins.

Why is this important? This is my closer. Even if he shows some feats next round, I won't have the chance to counter them or show why they won't affect Stark, effectively making it unfair.

  • For strength we have: failing to even bring any damage to Doc Green, arguably one of the weakest Hulks yet.
  • For durability we have: being KO'd by a volcano cave-in.
  • For speed we have: travel only. He completely dismissed my reactions scans and failed to post any of his own.

Keep this final note in mind when submitting your votes.

You wanted gripes? Throughout this debate you consistently ignored what was put right in front of you, tried to apply your own logic to things that have no logic, showed nothing impressive enough to back up Carol winning before I could counter it, took things I myself said out of context, and so much other stuff. Up to my 2nd post, I was actually enjoying this. I'd like to say I enjoyed the debate throughout. I'd say it now, but it'd be one helluva lie.

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#43 Edited by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio

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Intro

I want to start off by stating since I was following after my opponent here SG. I felt there was more of a need to counter established points, even then I did provide feats to show comparability between Carol and Stark. So far without looking at conclusions we know Carol has comparable speed (Mach 3/above), strength, and striking showings as well as a superior healing factor thanks to the debate including her time with Cru as well as Post-Cru. We know she beat Mystique who grazed her with a bullet, as well as thinks Mach 3 air crafts can't compete with her. This is a debate between fictional characters any mocks at each other is just teases between debaters. That said I'll be mainly focusing on points directed between the characters and not focusing on parts directed to the voters.

Main Debate

..

This is a matter of opinion. There's a scan of Hulk failing to crush Iron Man's faceplate - that's a feat for Stark, but it's in no way a low showing for Hulk given Stark's durability feats. This was an example to show that it's an opinion as that scan is unfortunately Modular Mark II, not any that I'm using.

1. It isn’t a matter of opinion. Hulk struggling to crush Iron Man’s face plate is PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity). That’s not an excuse it’s a fact. Hulk failing to crush Iron Man’s face plate doesn’t mean Stark’s face plate has the durability to take preventing the planet from splitting apart. This goes back to the fallacy of association. You’re assuming that it is impressive because it’s Hulk, and you are implying we should find it impressive for the same reason. The fact that you can’t outright state that Iron Man has a certain durability is why your arguments falls flat on its face. “he didn't one-shot Iron Man, is what I meant to say. Again, I will never say that Stark is on the level of Thor/Hulk, but in a well-written story he can give them a good fight.” How is it a well written story if we compare feats and Hulk’s best strength/striking feat dwarfs Iron Man’s best durability feat? The answer is it’s not well written in the case of power tiers. Just because someone can find fights between Hulk and Wolverine doesn’t make the fight logical. It comes down to how the plot wants these characters to operate.

Never said it was a solo feat, but he had to be carrying a lot of that weight, otherwise Thor would've done this solo.

2. Once again Fallacy of Association. Thor being there doesn’t make the feat impressive. You provided no context to the feat, and you’re implying because Thor was there must mean the feat is impressive despite Thor having strength feats that dwarf this. “Thor was there, so it must of been heavy”. You’re also forgetting to include the fact Vision is there as well.

Are you seriously arguing physics in comic books? The rock was gravity-compressed by Graviton iirc. There's no physics similar to ours in comic books. Alright, that's a lie, what I'm trying to say is that you're attempting to BS your way into making everyone think you're not lowballing.

3. You stated the rock was physically compressed by Graviton, you showed nothing to suggest that is fact. Not suggesting Graviton wasn’t involved, or the rock was given no effect upon. I’m just curious to why anyone should take your word on it, which I’ll state has been shown shaky in this thread before.

Jesus Christ, WHAT?! I'm ATHEIST and saying that. YES it would be less impressive if Thing did that because Rulk is stronger than Thing! Hulk and Rulk are two very well-known characters, the readers will most likely know of their striking capabilities. You're trying to lowball my scans every chance you get by BSing your own logic into it. I, at some points, can't even understand what you're saying.

4. Lowballing/Highballing for one who suggest he/she hates using fancy terms. It’s funny how you can suggest The Thing smashing an airplane into Iron Man would be less impressive than Rulk doing so. Yes we are all aware Hulk and Rulk have impressive striking capabilities again by stating that you are implying Iron Man has what? Obviously impressive durability, despite never being shown with durability feats to match their striking feats. I guess Logan has also been punched by Earth striking force despite his insides not combusting on themselves?

You just wasted an entire paragraph. I never displayed this as a durability feat, which you assume I did, but rather as a strength feat. After the initial attack, Rulk was prepared for attacks, and Iron Man hurt him. That's all I'm trying to prove. You keep twisting every little thing I say.

5. Noone is twisting your words, your making implications that you can’t stand by. Then ironically you claim not to be making those implications then go on to make the same implications. I’ll be spotlighting them so you can witness what you’ve stated as “feats”.

If she was simply BFR'd she would've flown back. #Logic

6. Not if she was knocked to a distance incredibly far away. Leaving the atmosphere would imply that was the case, though she could’ve been knocked out and BFR’d by the same logic stated by me, her best durability feats don’t match Hulk’s best striking feats. So if he wanted to at the moment he could kill/KO/BFR her with a punch as it stands. It doesn’t matter who she fights until she has feats accompanied by fights to suggest there’s a placement change, same with Iron Man, fights don’t just cut it. #LogicBck@U

...

I literally can't anymore. You twist everything to get it to go your way. Thor's striking is well-known throughout comics, so him hitting Stark and Stark surviving is a feat for Stark. How much simpler can it get? You're saying that because the force can't be measured then it doesn't apply. That's literally what you're saying. Me saying Iron Man is NOT on Hulk/Thor then showing that he can last against them isn't a matter of suggesting he is, it's showing that the gap between them isn't a lot.

Your durability section is everywhere. All I grabbed from that was "Carol got KO'd by a volcano cave-in."

7. I’m not sure if you think that’s flawless logic or are honestly capable of making implications at the same time as denying said implications. It’s a real enigma. I’m not surprised that’s all you got from it in all honesty your debate consist so far off, that’s PIS despite it being similar to something Stark did, or that’s not a feat despite it being better than any scaled feat show so far.

To top it off state Carol was knocked out by an eruption, and crushed by volcano boulders, after being in a fight with both Doomsday Man and then Destructor. As well as taking blast from Destructor's tachyon beam which caused said volcanic destruction.

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Whilst Carol remained MIA for the majority of a fight, Stark actually took a couple of hits. You make it seem like Worthy Gargoyle one-shotted Stark or something.

8. My point was Gargoyle is way below regular Hulk, by feats even way below Carol. Him getting an amp and only showcasing it against Iron Man doesn’t make Iron Man physically superior to Carol. I never made any statement that Gargoyle oneshotted Iron Man or any implication of that. My statement and implication is he was unimpressive before the amp, him beating up Iron Man doesn't change that.

Fine, the armor reacted. I'm discussing both parties, so it doesn't really matter. It's still reactions in milliseconds.

There is one point I will concede though - the picosecond scan. I misread that.

9. Yes the armor, that’s a computer performed an auto-defense in a millisecond. Stark wasn’t completely shielded, the armor provided an auto-defense. Let that circulate for a minute and then think of why it was a fallacy to suggest Iron Man can react in milliseconds in a combat scenario.

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An explosion is an attack. Do you not know what an attack is? He blitzed Dynamo, yes, which is better than anything you've shown thus far. Carol, in this debate, can fly at like Mach 4 but can't react to jack squat.

10. I’ll add he reacted to nothing in the Crymson Dynamo scan his armor provided him protection, nowhere have we been shown him dodging, moving, or even physically reacting in a Millisecond and the reason why was because he couldn’t, which was stated in the same story arc you were suggesting he had Millisecond reaction feats from. Yes he blitzed Crymson Dynamo after he was charging up a means to propulse himself faster which resulted to a Mach 3 blitz.

In regards to Carol she has a feat where she travels past the atmosphere in 118 seconds (1 minute 58 seconds) aka Mach 269.

WHAT HAVE YOU SHOWN FOR SPEED?! A statement that she's faster than some diddly duck planes and dropping a phone at Mach 4?!

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Do you know how to apply outer smarts to this kind of stuff? Are you happy now? He's Mach 8.7. Keep trying. Jeez.

11. Scan with the phone call said Mach 3, this is why you are having problems thinking I’m twisting your words. You’re not reading what’s in front of you properly.

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12. I’m pleased you provided an actual feat that seems valid. I was expecting something like he flew next to Gladiator whose FTL or something like that. Here’s the feat I was referring to

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Anyone could double check my math, but I got Mach 246-247

Alright, this is another one I'll gladly give you. However, Carol's "energy punches" are much different. She has energy surrounding her punches, which could be absorbed.

13. Keyword “Could be” different is a speculation, energy is energy. Stark has shown the ability to absorb direct lightning yet he wasn’t able to absorb lightning ignited Mljonir strikes? "Could be", is a NO until proven otherwise. It’s strange for an Atheist you really like believing in things that you can’t prove.

Do you know what "Holding Back" means? It means not trying to harm. You can't use Stark holding back against a drunk Carol as a feat for Carol, when he was explicitly trying not to harm her.

14. Which was never stated by anyone in the comic, It’s just a statement coming from you to put the instance in a light you prefer to see it in. Otherwise why state he was holding back and not show where it's stated he's holding back? The fact that you tried to originally suggest she was amped physically by an energy drain but couldn't prove it, testifies to how you like to depict an instance in a favorable light for yourself.

I'm not providing proof outside of fights because fights are the best proof. What's better: striking and harming the Hulk or breaking a big rock? I'd be willing to bet a bit that you'd say breaking the rock is better, which is why you're going to lose this debate: you keep trying to apply your own logic. That's not how this works. The rules aren't dictated by you.

15. Breaking a big rock, easily is better. It’s measurable we can at least scale where the character ranks with breaking a rock. In regards to Hulk you’re going back to the Fallacy of Association thinking. Never did I say I was in charge of deciding if making Hulk go "agh" is more impressive than destroying a rock that could lets say destroy the planet if it made impact. The thing is fights are dictated by how the writer wants the fight to go down. Hulk/Thor/Superman can be depicted as the heavyweight of the fight that doesn't mean their fighting with their best feats in mind. Users can decide how they want to vote with whatever logic here made the more sense to them, I'm not dictating that. I'm stating the problem I see with relying solely on other characters for feats.

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You've got to be kidding me. Look at my scan again. It's like the CW Arrow vs Deathstroke fight - they are ACTUALLY fighting but it cuts back to flashbacks of them sparring.

16. What? Don't get the Ollie/Slade mention. If your talking about Civil War Tony’s computer suit anticipated each movement Steve was going to make. That’s not combat skill. That’s an algorithm being used to predict and react to the next move before it’s made. My phone tells me when it’s going to rain before it does, doesn’t make me the weatherman. In regards to the flashback they're still being friendly, their still sparring and not trying to put the other 6 feet under.

The reason Hulk and Thor are highly regarded in strength is because they can hurt characters with a consistent durability. Read this: "Anyone can show Spider-man rocking the Hulk for example, they just can't show Spider-man doing anything to warrant his ability to do so" and tell me if it makes sense to you. Read it out loud. If a consistent writer to two characters can show character A hurting character B, then they just DID show that they have the ability to do so. Are you serious right now?!

17. And that’s the definition of harming a character via plot against actually valid reason to harm a character, you know like feats. If Spider-man harms Hulk in a story yet couldn’t drop a building with a strike and Hulk laughs off building attacks consistently. I’d call Spider-man harming Hulk with physical strikes plot and nothing else.

I thought durability would be an irrelevance to bring up since her Cru healing factor but here's how she got the healing factor.

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Implications vs Facts

The numbered sentences below aren't direct quotes of what my opponent here has said, the quotes you seek (or rather what he said is posted above each number) the numbers are my edit of what I see his quote implying. Make your own sense out of what was posted.

There's a scan of Hulk failing to crush Iron Man's faceplate - that's a feat for Stark, but it's in no way a low showing for Hulk given Stark's durability feats. This was an example to show that it's an opinion as that scan is unfortunately Modular Mark II, not any that I'm using.

1. "Hulk failed to crush Iron Man's face plate, meaning by feats Hulk's best strength feat < Face Plate durability."

Never said it was a solo feat, but he had to be carrying a lot of that weight, otherwise Thor would've done this solo.

2. "It was heavy because if it wasn't, Thor would of done it solo."

Are you seriously arguing physics in comic books? The rock was gravity-compressed by Graviton iirc. There's no physics similar to ours in comic books. Alright, that's a lie, what I'm trying to say is that you're attempting to BS your way into making everyone think you're not lowballing.

3. "Physics are a meaningless point to argue about, cause their not used in comics." "Never mind that's a lie."

Hulk and Rulk are two very well-known characters, the readers will most likely know of their striking capabilities.

4. "Rulk is strong so when I show you a feat of Iron Man being hit by him, keep his striking feats in mind."

After the initial attack, Rulk was prepared for attacks, and Iron Man hurt him. That's all I'm trying to prove.

5. "Rulk only was initially attacked with no knowledge once, despite no let up from Iron Man, so the instance is valid. I won't quote the fact his brain chemistry was altered though or the fact he decided he was going to fight when the fight was over."

6. Irrelevant, considering I don't think either character wouldn't get oneshotted by Hulk looking at best striking feats.

Thor's striking is well-known throughout comics, so him hitting Stark and Stark surviving is a feat for Stark. How much simpler can it get?

7. "Thor is well known...so him hitting Stark is a logical feat for Stark."

I'm not providing proof outside of fights because fights are the best proof. What's better: striking and harming the Hulk or breaking a big rock? I'd be willing to bet a bit that you'd say breaking the rock is better, which is why you're going to lose this debate: you keep trying to apply your own logic. That's not how this works. The rules aren't dictated by you.

15. "Making a character go "agh" is more impressive then having your own strength feats"

The reason Hulk and Thor are highly regarded in strength is because they can hurt characters with a consistent durability. Read this: "Anyone can show Spider-man rocking the Hulk for example, they just can't show Spider-man doing anything to warrant his ability to do so" and tell me if it makes sense to you. Read it out loud. If a consistent writer to two characters can show character A hurting character B, then they just DID show that they have the ability to do so. Are you serious right now?!

17. "Spider-man has the ability to harm Hulk, as long as its consistent."

Feat Comparison

Strength/Striking:

1. Carol destroyed a meteor that made her appear as a spec. This same meteor was said to have been all together as the size of half New York.

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Compared to Stark making Hulk's head move.

2. Iron Man moved Rulk's weight (cheapshot), Carol blitzed Hulk (cheapshot) created a crater in the ground and had time to have conversation with Hawkeye. (Before Carol got BFR'd).

Speed:

Iron Man traveled at Mach 8.7, while Carol traveled at Mach 246.

Healing:

Iron Man healing his heel over sleep compared to Cru getting her head grown back the next panel over.

Skill:

Iron Man sparring with Cap, compared to Carol being grazed and beating Mystique in a fight for her life.

Questionable Concerns.

1. You started this debate by saying

Captain Marvel is outclassed. Go ahead and use those Civil War scans filled with PIS/WIS. Fricking Bendis is why we're debating, and I'm still ready to dish this out.

Then you went on to use a Bendis written comic as proof of superiority

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Even before Bleeding Edge, Iron Man has always been able to dish out the damage against Hulk-class opponents all the time. As we both know, Captain Marvel is from Hulk in terms of power level:

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So use whatever suits me when it suits me?

2. You stated, that Iron Man can react in Miliseconds on two different occasions, without providing a combat scenarios

1.

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1) Blurred h2h combat (what we're going to be doing here) - 2) millisecond reaction times and a striking feat - 3) picosecond brain

The question is, will Carol be able to keep up with Stark's speed upgrades? Up to you to prove that.

2. He's still operating reacting in milliseconds.

Either showing you didn't know about what's been stated in the extremis arc, or it didn't suit you to mention.

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3. "Million ton rock"

Even classic Iron Man was seen helping lift that infamous compressed million ton rock from Avengers #159.

Then, it became a lot of weight after he didn't include a scan of it or mention the involvement of Vision and Thor.

Never said it was a solo feat, but he had to be carrying a lot of that weight, otherwise Thor would've done this solo.

Then, he mentioned Graviton still with no scan to show for it.

The rock was gravity-compressed by Graviton iirc

4. Powerscaling

I will never say that Stark is on the level of Thor/Hulk, but in a well-written story he can give them a good fight.

Then

"This is a matter of opinion. There's a scan of Hulk failing to crush Iron Man's faceplate - that's a feat for Stark, but it's in no way a low showing for Hulk given Stark's durability feats."

Never provided said "durability feats"

5. There's the fact you didn't mention some of the scans you provided were inconclusive. Fights either starting off-panel, not winning by physical means, or fights starting via cheap-shotted none of this stuff was stated by my opponent.

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#44 Posted by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio
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Voter Tags

@blackestnight93: @stormshadow_x: @battle123axe: @ouroborik: @batman3000: @chair-sama: @lvenger: @knightsofdarkness2: @blackpantherisb: @asgardianbrony: @poeticwarrior:

Uncertain if voting

@ghostravage: @agent41: @krleavenger:

@supremegeneration

When your voting keep in mind this isn't a versus thread, it's not which character you think won. It's who you think debated better and won that debate. When you are picking please include information to why you think whomever won and feel free to provide what either of us did wrong/right in are debates. Carefully look through each post supporting Carol/Tony and come to your conclusion based on what you see in said post.

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#45 Posted by agent41 (15704 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel that SupremeGeneration did a better job in this debate. He also presented more solid evidence supporting Ironman, compared to the feats that were shown for carol.

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#46 Edited by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Edited by poeticwarrior (3526 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say Ecstatic, he's fighting an uphill battle from the very beginning since most people on Comicvine has already had a preconceived notion about a popular character like Ironman who has been debated extensively vs. Captain Marvel who has been underestimated. Ecstatic was able to provide context to a lot of the scans of Iron Man and show the irony of Bendis not knowing how to write Iron Man and yet Supreme used a Bendis scan to provide feats for Iron Man, making Supreme's tactic becoming "pick and choose" which feats he agrees with while ignores feats he disagrees with. Ecstatic also explains how Captain Marvel's power becomes more powerful than her past self and demonstrated that there is a different between Captain Marvel and her Miss Marvel persona. Ecstatic also able to provide context to Iron Man's scans, showing why he could do what he did, and provide an insight as to why Captain Marvel can stand toe-to-toe against Iron Man.

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#48 Posted by agent41 (15704 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: You read all of it that fast?

I have been reading this thread since you opened it.

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#49 Posted by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio

1/1 I guess.

@poeticwarrior: Given some of the info you put in your post I can tell you read our post. Any suggestions on what we can work on?

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#50 Posted by EcstaticGrace (7191 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Any suggestions on what we can work on?