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#1 Posted by FaradaySloth (9981 posts) - - Show Bio
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  • In-Character, Although Raizel is willing to fight a Human.
  • Basic Knowledge
  • Win by Death, KO, or Incap
  • Standard Gear

Location:

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VOTER RULES:

  • Vote on who you thought won the debate, NOT who wins in a battle between these two.
  • Give reasons when you vote
  • Don't voice your opinion until voting has begun
  • If you troll, insult, or are suspected of being biased between the debaters, you WILL NOTbe able to vote, you won't be given a second chance.
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#2 Posted by FaradaySloth (9981 posts) - - Show Bio

@mass Alright it's up, you can go first if you feel like it.

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#3 Posted by Mass (1295 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by reaverlation (25879 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmmm

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#5 Edited by Mass (1295 posts) - - Show Bio

Cadis Etrama Di Raizel: The Noblesse

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Biography:

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Cadis Etrama Di Raizel is the most powerful vampire in the world, The Noblesse. Within the vampire society there are various clans, with each clan headed by the Clan Leader. The Clan Leaders all serve the Lord, the head vampire. The Lord runs all of the vampire society but the title of Noblesse is reserved for the strongest vampire, Raizel. The Lord leads and rules over the race publicly, but the Noblesse is the vampire's hidden protector, judge, and executioner.

Raizel takes his roles as Noblesse extremely serious. He has vowed to protect the human world from danger, even from other vampires and supernatural beings. Even from he own brother or friend. After his fierce battle with Muzaka over the fate of the human world, Raizel disappeared for 820 years. Now awaken, Raizel begins his life anew.

Raizel is a very versatile character so I've decided to break up if offensive abilities into 3 different sections: Attack Power, Mind Control and Telekinesis

Attack Power:

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Before going too in depth into Raizel's Attack Power, I'd like to take a moment to describe where Raizel's powers come from. Raizel's great power comes from using his own life force. The amount of life force his has remaining oftendictates the amount of power he puts into his attacks. The less life force he has, the weaker his attacks become and when he had ample life force, he can bring out his full power.

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The first two Attack Power feats I'll be showing you are feats performed when Raizel had less than half his remaining life force left. As I stated above this is effectively cutting Raizel's potential power in half.

The first attack power feat I'd like to show you is from when Raizel was holding back and having his powers voluntarily sealed. Worried that Raizel may exhaust his Life Force too quickly, Frankenstein creates a seal for his Master Raizel that will limit the amount of power he can draw. So when you look at the follow feat, be aware this is Raizel limiting his power.

Raizel creates several tornadoes of blood energy which dwarf a mountain range and changes the weather over the country of Lukedonia. Raizel then combines the tornadoes into one massive blood phoenix which creates a massive explosion:

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Just from the Blood Tornadoes dwarfing a mountain range you can see that Raizel's powers are incredible. What makes this feat even more impressive is when you take into account that Raizel is still holding back.

Now lets take a look at the second Attack Power feat

Here Raizel is in a battle with two other Nobles (vampires). Raizel has removed his seal but is still fighting with less than half of his life force remaining. In his battle against the 6th and 7th Elders of the Union (evil organization), Raizel unleashes his Blood Phoenix which creates a massive explosion visible from space:

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The explosion being visible from space is impressive but when you look at the enormous crater left by Raizel's attack in combination with the visible curvation of the Earth you can get a real feel for just how awesome Raizel's Attack power is. Well at least with half his life force anyway.

Now lets take a look at what happens when Raizel has more Life Force.

During his battle with the werewolf Leader, Maduke; Raizel, Frankenstein, The leader of the Nobles and Muzaka are being overpower by the werewolf leader. Raizel is almost out of life force and in a last ditch ever, Muzaka transfers a portion of his life force to Raizel, allowing the Noblesse to you his powerful Blood Vortex. Raizel creates a vortex in the center of Maduke and the werewolf is completely crushed and obliterated, leaving not a drop of blood behind:

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What makes this even more impressive, is that Maduke is extremely strong. A casually blast from Maduke (he was testing out his powers) creates a truly massive explosion, covering a large area of the country/continent (I'm honestly not sure where they are but I think its somewhere in Europe/Russia border):

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After the intense battle with Maduke, Raizel has very little life force left. As he is nearing death, Muzaka makes the ultimate sacrifice and transfers all of his Life Force to Raizel, completely refilling Raziel's Life Force.

At full Life Force, Raizel shows just how terrifying his full powers are. When the Union's First Elder orders 4 of his elite guard to attack Raizel. Raizel stops them in their tracks (either with mind control or telekinesis) and than instantly erases them with Blood Vortexes. Three of the elite guard are completely erased and one has her arm torn off. The Elite Guard are pretty strong in their own right, tanking mountain level attacks like they are nothing, yet in front of Raizel, they are nothing:

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Mind Control:

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As a Noble (vampire), Raizel has the ability to control other people's minds. While all Nobles have Mind Control, no one is as powerful as Raizel. With a single glance, a single word, he can take complete control of his target's mind and force them to their knees. Here are several examples showing how potent Raizel's Mind Control powers are.

Jake attempts to intimidate Raizel by standing over him but Raizel commands him to kneel so Raizel can look down on him:

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Raizel uses his mind control to stop Stark, Tao and Krantz from moving:

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Raizel's mind control is so powerful he can even stop people from breathing:

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Even after Krantas absorbs Shank and takes an enhancement drug, a single word from Raizel is all it take to stop him in his tracks:

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In a battle with someone as strong as Madara, those first couple of examples would just be fodder so lets take a look at some stronger characters.

Forces the Clan Leaders to stay still with his mind control. The Clan Leaders are all Nobles with Mind Control powers of their own. Nobles also have resistance to mind control so when Raizel's mind control works against the Clan Leaders (the strongest Nobles) it shows that even with mental resistance, Raizel can still control their minds:

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For reference, a Clan Leader can destroy a mountain:

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Telekinesis:

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If Raizel's Attack Power and Mind Control were scary enough, he is also a very powerful Telekinetic.

Raizel uses telekinesis to crush Ragus while in a very weakened state from his low life force after his fight with Muzaka:

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Raizel's telekinesis overpowers Ragus' beam and cuts deep gashes into his body. Ragus' beam could destroy multiple mountains:

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So we can already see that Raizel has multiple mountain level telekinesis but now lets talk about his range, which is AMAZING.

The First Elder of the Union declares war against the Werewolves so he orders an orbital satellite cannon to be fired upon the werewolf country. Raizel, having received Muzaka's (the former leader of the Werewolves and Raizel's best friend) aids the werewolves and stops the Union's satellite. Raziel gazes up to the sky, locates the orbital satellite cannon from the ground and destroys it with his telekinesis:

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That is incredible range and detection! It pretty much shows that unless Madara is on the other side of the planet, there is no where he can hide from Raizel's telekinesis.

Speed:

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I'm always surprised when I see people posting about Raizel being slow as that couldn't be further from the truth.

In the battle against Maduke, the werewolf lord uses the blood stone to absorb the power from a majority ofthe werewolf race. With the immense power boost Maduke decides to test his power with a casual finger beam. Raizel, Frankenstein, Rasheia and Muzaka all jump out of the blast range of Maduke's beam which creates a multi-mountain sized explosion. (Please note that Raizel is extremely weakened at this time due to a previous battle with Muzaka and his life force being extremely drained):

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If dodging Maduke's massive attack wasn't enough, Raizel has an even more impressive speed feat. Remember how the Union has Orbital Attack Satellites and Raizel destroyed one with his telekinesis? Well it turns out the Union has a lot more satellites. One of those satellites targets Raizel's city. The Union elder fires an orbital satellite laser at Raizel's city. Raizel detects the laser, leaves his house, and intercepts it miles above the city. All this after the laser is fired:

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Those satellite lasers hit the Earth incredibly fast:

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This puts Raizel well into the MHS+ category and most likely beyond.

Durability:

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To be honest, there aren't a whole lot of durable feats for Raziel, simply because there aren't a lot of characters strong enough to fight him. I'll try to showcase some examples that show Raizel's durable is as good as his Attack Power.

In his fight against Roctis, Raizel causally blocks a multi-mountain cutting whip lash with one hand:

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Blocks a claw slash from Muzaka which rips through mountains:

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With his rapidly depleting life force, an extremely weakened Raizel tanks multiple claw slashes from Muzaka. Reference the above scans showing that a single claw slash from Muzaka can cleave mountains:

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After his fight with Muzaka, Raizel had used up a large portion of his life force, leaving him in a very weakened state. In his fight with Ragus, Ragus uses the Blood Stone to boost his strength and absorb the power of several vampire nobles and werewolf warriors. Ragus launches a multi-mountain level blast at the weakened Raizel and he still blocks it:

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Summary:

- Raizel's Attack power is well into the large island or above category

- His mind control is strong enough to control several mountain+ level characters with mental resistance

- His Telekinesis can overpower multi-mountain level attacks and has enough range to be effective anywhere the battle goes

- Raizel is at least MHS+, most likely higher in speed

- He has the durability to within multi-mountain level attacks with almost no life force left

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#6 Posted by Mass (1295 posts) - - Show Bio

@faradaysloth: Okay my opening statement is up. Sorry its a little long but its hard to do Raizel justice without including some context.

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#7 Posted by FaradaySloth (9981 posts) - - Show Bio

@mass: Damn, this’ll be good. I’ll try to have my opener up in the next few days, can’t make any promises though, got school and sports and such lol.

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#8 Edited by El_directo_ (635 posts) - - Show Bio

Great Opener, mass.

Taep pls.

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#9 Posted by Kalebsmarty156 (1963 posts) - - Show Bio

Madara loses because I don't know who's that other guy.

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#10 Posted by Mass (1295 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by FaradaySloth (9981 posts) - - Show Bio

@mass: I'll try to have my opener up asap.

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#12 Edited by FaradaySloth (9981 posts) - - Show Bio

@mass

Madara Uchiha, the Ghost of the Uchiha

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Some Background Information:

Alright, I'm sure most of you, if not all of you know who Madara is. If you don't, let me just give his story.

Madara Uchiha is one of, if not the strongest Uchiha to ever exist. His childhood was filled with a war against the rival clan of the Uchiha, the Senju, until the day he met Hashirama Senju. They became friends, then adversaries during the war, until they came back together to create Konohagakure. However, Madara didn't view the world the way it should have been envisioned in his mind, so he turned his back against his village, and fought against Hashirama, where he was thought to have died, but as it turns out, he survived! He created a plan that would play a huge role in the soon Fourth Great Ninja War, long after he died. The plan was to make the world fall under to an eternal dream, called Infinite Tsukuyomi. He is one of the central antagonists of Naruto.

Hax:

Madara has some valuable hax that could help him in this battle, so let's just start off by saying the two main Dojutsu he has.

Sharingan:

  • Basic Sharingan Genjutsu are just illusions for the five senses
  • Mangekyo Sharingan
    • Susanoo- He creates an armored like being that is immensely powerful, it increases the potency of his attacks by a huge amount and will be one of my main focuses. The blade of the Susanoo is also extremely powerful, being able to shatter mountains and it even pierced Chakra
    • Izanagi- An illusion that applies to reality itself, turning one's imagination into reality, thus if Madara has any injuries he can make them fade away, though this would cost him his Sharingan in return.

Rinnegan:

  • Tengai Shinsei- He creates multiple mountain-sized meteorites which I'll explain later in my post of how this is effective and impressive.
  • Black Receivers- These black rods of chakra are created from Madara and used as an offensive weapon, similar kunai, swords, etc. when he stabs his opponent, the chakra inside are transmitted, and can even paralyze the opponent as shown when Madara paralyzed Tobirama.
  • Demonic Statue Chains- These chains created by chakra are shown to restrict the power and immobilize the opponent, it's potent enough to make Tailed Beasts fall to their knees.
  • Limbo- Limbo Clones exist on a total different plane of existance, they cannot be seen or sense, which is costly for my opponent's character. Madara in this form is only capable of producing one Limbo Clone, however, that single Limbo Clone is still pretty powerful. It practically one-shotted all the tail beasts with physical strikes, keep in mind that tailed beasts are stated to destroy mountains casually.
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Naruto Volume 69, Chapter 659

Stats:

Strength:

As I have already shown with the Limbo Scan, Madara is easily capable of one-shotting multi-mountain level fighters with simple physicals strikes. However, it may seem sketchy, so I'll prove it with actual on-screen feats.

When in Susanoo form, he is a giant, taller than the mountain size meteor that I previously mentioned, but in this form, his casual slices shockwaves cut mountains from miles and miles away, and these mountains were still larger than himself. Keep in mind, this is all casual.

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Naruto Volume 62, Chapter 589

Speed:

Madara doesn't really have quantifiable speed feats in this form, however, he did blitz Naruto, and was casually evading Sasuke's attacks both of whom are decisively MHS or maybe even MHS+ through scaling.

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Naruto Volume 68, Chapter 657

Durability:

This is where Madara really shines, he has great durability feats from all around.

Firstly, he tanked a Hirudora strike from Guy,

The strike itself
The strike itself
Madara right after it
Madara right after it

And Hirudora's damage is pretty freaking huge, albeit this is from another attack, so it was both of them combined, yet it dwarfed an island.

Naruto Volume 54, Chapter 507
Naruto Volume 54, Chapter 507

Now now, I know what some of you are thinking, that he used the Susanoo to help him tank the attack, or he had edo regeneration (nothing to prove the latter claim btw) but he's got two more impressive feats that are above this.

The first one is that Madara survived several bijuudama explosions up close. In case you forgot, Bijuudama explosions are huge.

Madara before
Madara before
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Naruto Volume 65, Chapter 626

Madara in the third scan doesn't even look like he took any serious injuries at all. This should comfortably put Madara at Island+ Level in terms of durability, yet he has another feat.

Remember when I stated the Tailed Beasts were able to casually destroy mountains? Madara tanked dozens of strikes from the Tailed Beasts.

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Naruto Volume 69, Chapter 658

Assuming all 9 Beasts struck Madara with every one of their tails and didn't repeat striking him, that puts the number of hits he took at a minimum of 45.

Madara has clear Island+ level durability feats on both energy and blunt durability wise.

I believe I presented enough, onto his power section!

Power/Chakra/Equipment:

Madara's pretty powerful aside from hax and stats, so let's explore here.

To start off, which I don't believe I'm going to use here, but Madara has indeed tamed and summoned Nine-Tails before, as shown in his battle with Hashirama.

Now, onto something more juicy and potent, Tengai Shinsei. In this move, Madara summons a massive meteor that dwarfs the landscape, definitely large mountain sized. He was able to summon twoof this with no effort taking, and this was his first appearance in the manga.

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Naruto Volume 59, Chapters 560 & 561

The collision was so powerful it sent earthquakes across the countries, all the way up to the Allied Shinobi HQ.

Another move Madara has is Clone Jutsu, he created 25 wood clones with no sweat at all, the scariest part about this, is that they all can Susanoo.

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Naruto Volume 61, Chapter 578

And all of this, still, no effort.

The last of the monstrous chakra powers he has, he gained regeneration powers after gaining Senjutsu Chakra. He used it against the Tailed Beasts a few times, this would help him greatly for any attack Raizel has in his deck.

The last thing I wanted to mention was Madara's flying fan, Gunbai Uchiwa. He can redirect attacks with this tool

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Naruto Volume 63, Chapter 601

Counters/Thoughts about Raizel

Now I want to get something out of the way before I start this, but I never read Noblesse, so if it looks like I'm being ignorant about the feats here, it isn't on a malice attempt. Without further ado, here we go!

Raizel creates several tornadoes of blood energy which dwarf a mountain range and changes the weather over the country of Lukedonia. Raizel then combines the tornadoes into one massive blood phoenix which creates a massive explosion:

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Just from the Blood Tornadoes dwarfing a mountain range you can see that Raizel's powers are incredible. What makes this feat even more impressive is when you take into account that Raizel is still holding back.

Impressive, though it doesn't look nearly as powerful as a Bijuudama, something that Madara can tank with ease.

Here Raizel is in a battle with two other Nobles (vampires). Raizel has removed his seal but is still fighting with less than half of his life force remaining. In his battle against the 6th and 7th Elders of the Union (evil organization), Raizel unleashes his Blood Phoenix which creates a massive explosion visible from space:

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The explosion being visible from space is impressive but when you look at the enormous crater left by Raizel's attack in combination with the visible curvation of the Earth you can get a real feel for just how awesome Raizel's Attack power is. Well at least with half his life force anyway.

Ok, is the crater scan showing the actual curvature of the earth? Because the crater looks a lot bigger than what's shown in the space scans, for example, Tsar Bomba was visible from up high and showed some curvature of the earth.

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Tsar Bomba is only large city to multi-city level, in fact, you also have a similar picture of this with the city level Hiroshima bombing

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So not sure about the actual size of the crater, but the explosion isn't that impressive enough to phase Madara.

What makes this even more impressive, is that Maduke is extremely strong. A casually blast from Maduke (he was testing out his powers) creates a truly massive explosion, covering a large area of the country/continent (I'm honestly not sure where they are but I think its somewhere in Europe/Russia border):

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Once again with the other attacks, this doesn't seem that impressive to what Madara has gone through, from the aftermath of it, it doesn't look like a multi-mountain attack even. So all I got from this is that Raizel was able to one shot a multi-mountain or below level fighter when at full power, meanwhile Madara did this with 9 of them, with a clone, midway through a grueling battle, right after he go stroke with dozens of mountain to multi-mountain level strikes. Nah, ain't buying it.

At full Life Force, Raizel shows just how terrifying his full powers are. When the Union's First Elder orders 4 of his elite guard to attack Raizel. Raizel stops them in their tracks (either with mind control or telekinesis) and than instantly erases them with Blood Vortexes. Three of the elite guard are completely erased and one has her arm torn off. The Elite Guard are pretty strong in their own right, tanking mountain level attacks like they are nothing, yet in front of Raizel, they are nothing:

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This just confirmed my suspicion about the last feat, Full Power Raizel is doing feats comparable if not weaker feats, to an inferior form of Madara.

Forces the Clan Leaders to stay still with his mind control. The Clan Leaders are all Nobles with Mind Control powers of their own. Nobles also have resistance to mind control so when Raizel's mind control works against the Clan Leaders (the strongest Nobles) it shows that even with mental resistance, Raizel can still control their minds:

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For reference, a Clan Leader can destroy a mountain:

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I mean, Madara locked A (Fourth Raikage) into a simple genjutsu and average Shinobi are taught how to counter Genjutsu, so Kage Level fighters being fallen under a simple genjutsu trick tells you the potency that Madara has even with his weakest moves

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Naruto Volume 62, Chapter 588

So Raizel's best feat is still inferior to Madara's casual feats

And I don't think I need to go over as to why mountain busting isn't that impressive to Madara.

Raizel's telekinesis overpowers Ragus' beam and cuts deep gashes into his body. Ragus' beam could destroy multiple mountains:

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Tbh not really seeing the multi-mountain level feat here, those look more like large hills/small mountains imo. However, has done way better and his durability far exceeds this.

The First Elder of the Union declares war against the Werewolves so he orders an orbital satellite cannon to be fired upon the werewolf country. Raizel, having received Muzaka's (the former leader of the Werewolves and Raizel's best friend) aids the werewolves and stops the Union's satellite. Raziel gazes up to the sky, locates the orbital satellite cannon from the ground and destroys it with his telekinesis:

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That is incredible range and detection! It pretty much shows that unless Madara is on the other side of the planet, there is no where he can hide from Raizel's telekinesis.

I'll admit this is a pretty good feat, however, Raizel's telekinesis isn't going to sense a Limbo clone, so Raizel can't even begin to focus on the real Madara while he'll be getting punched from all sides. And this feat, while great for range, doesn't have the potency to even put down the real Madara.

If dodging Maduke's massive attack wasn't enough, Raizel has an even more impressive speed feat. Remember how the Union has Orbital Attack Satellites and Raizel destroyed one with his telekinesis? Well it turns out the Union has a lot more satellites. One of those satellites targets Raizel's city. The Union elder fires an orbital satellite laser at Raizel's city. Raizel detects the laser, leaves his house, and intercepts it miles above the city. All this after the laser is fired:

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Those satellite lasers hit the Earth incredibly fast:

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This puts Raizel well into the MHS+ category and most likely beyond.

Not sure how fast these lasers are supposed to be, one scan seems to show them taking several pages to cross and another seems instantaneously. If it is actually MHS+, then I'll concede to Raizel being in the same league, if not faster than Madara, though with everything shown thus far, Raizel can't hope to put Madara down nor survive his onslaught and hax.

In his fight against Roctis, Raizel causally blocks a multi-mountain cutting whip lash with one hand:

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There wasn't a mountain let alone multiple mountains being cut here.

Blocks a claw slash from Muzaka which rips through mountains:

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Ok, now this is an obvious large hill, since it isn't even comparable to the other mountains near it, unless if there are any other shots depicting its height, it doesn't even come close to Madara's most casual feat.

With his rapidly depleting life force, an extremely weakened Raizel tanks multiple claw slashes from Muzaka. Reference the above scans showing that a single claw slash from Muzaka can cleave mountains:

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He looks pretty injured here, he's bleeding seriously and looks fatigued, unless if it's all an act.

Conclusion/How Madara wins this:

Looking over this, I'd say Madara should win this easily for the following reasons:

  1. His hax, Raizel has no answers for being paralyzed by the Black Receivers due to, what I'm assuming, his lack of H2H feats. Raizel also has no answer for his attacks being reflected back at him, and most importantly of all, Limbo.
  2. Raizel's best Attack Power and Durability feats aren't even close to what Madara has, in fact, they're comparable to Madara in his first appearance and characters who Madara one-shotted. The only debatable part is speed, which isn't saving Raizel here.
  3. Madara is crazy stronger.
  4. Madara is more versatile
  5. Madara will win this fight for the Uchiha Clan!
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#13 Posted by FaradaySloth (9981 posts) - - Show Bio

@mass: Alright it's up! Hope you enjoy it!

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#14 Posted by FaradaySloth (9981 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by Doofasa (2167 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please

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#16 Posted by Mass (1295 posts) - - Show Bio

@faradaysloth: great opening post, really nice. I'll have my rebuttal up soon.

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#17 Edited by Mass (1295 posts) - - Show Bio

For my rebuttal instead of dragging this out and commenting on every set of scans (something I usually do), I'm only going to comment of the topics relevant to the outcome of this battle.

Without further ado I give you my Rebuttal:

The One True Noblesse

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Madara's Attack Power:

As most of us know, Madara is definitely strong there is no question about that. There are a couple of points I'd like to make about his attack power though.

While Madara's attack power with Susanoo can causally split mountains, his attack power without Susanoo is not as high. Take for instance his power with the Kages. None of them have the durability to withstand a single slash from Madara's Susanoo and yet they were able to trade blows to Madara prior to him using his Perfect Susanoo. Now granted, this is a jobbing Madara, it does show that his Attack Power outside of Susanoo isn't as strong. I could post scans from that battle but I think we all know what I'm talking about and are familiar enough with the series to remember that battle.

Madara's Durability:

Here is where I have to disagree with you on a couple points. Madara's durability while high, isn't as high as you made it out to be.

For starters, Madara's meteor's actually destroyed his Edo Tensei body. Madara himself even remarks that he was intending on destroying himself and Mu's Edo bodies since that was the purpose of the Edo Tensei jutsu to begin with. In the scans below you can clearly see Madara and Mu's Edo Tensei bodies being restored after the Meteors make impact.

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While normally meteor feats like this are very impressive what really discredits Madara is the fact that Gaara and more importantly Ohoki survive the meteor's impact. Ohoki at the epicenter of the meteor's impact took the most damage and while the impact cripples him, his body is still intact unlike Madara and Mu. If the meteor's DC was in the island level range, both Gaara and Ohoki would have easily been killed along with all the other fodder ninja around the impact:

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Second the Hirudora feat isn't as impressive as it seems. Hirudora isn't an energy blast. It is a focused blast of pressurized air. The big explosion next to Island Turtle isn't an energy blast at all but rather the pressurized air being released. So you can't call this an island level attack, its simple a super focused jet of attack that explodes with a large release of wind after impact. While still powerful, its not an island level attack, otherwise Kisame would have died instantly:

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To top all of that off, if Hirudora was actually an island level attack, Madara's partial Susanoo would have shatter like when Raikage broke it and he is definitely not punching with island level attacks:

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Remember when I stated the Tailed Beasts were able to casually destroy mountains? Madara tanked dozens of strikes from the Tailed Beasts.

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Naruto Volume 69, Chapter 658

This is actually misleading. The Tailed Beast can causally destroy mountains with their Tailed Beast Bombs. Their individual physical strength isn't on that level. In your first scan you can see Madara's partial Susanoo is being beat by the Tailed Beasts. As I showed above, Madara's partial Susanoo can be broken by someone like the Raikage. Madara even loses an arm to the Tailed Beast's physical assault.

I do agree with you though that with Perfect Susanoo, Madara's durability is much higher, but his partial Susanoo and actual body durability are much much lower than his Perfect Susanoo.

Noblesse Scaling

So I see a few questions about the size of mountains in Noblesse so I figured I'd take a minute to address that. Noblesse is a webtoon Manhwa and unfortunately one of the downsides of webtoons is usually extremely bad scaling and perspective. All of the mountains you see the Raizel's scans are definitely mountains, the artist just isn't very good at drawing them to scale. Here is a perfect example of how bad the perspective can be.

Regis and Rael are battling a werewolf warrior on an island off the coast of Korea. In the first glimpse of the island it looks super small

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But then as the battle continues, we get another view of the island and it clearly has mountains and a forests on it. In fact there are multiple views of the island showing it actually has multiple mountains on it:

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This is particularly impressive when you consider that Regis & Rael's combined attack colliding with the Werewolf's attack complete engulfed the island. Fun fact, Raizel casually stomps that werewolf warrior and another werewolf who was even stronger:

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So moral of the story, size doesn't matter in Noblesse. If it looks like a mountain it is a mountain.

Raizel's True Power:

If the poor visual scaling in Noblesse has you a little wary of Raizel's DC feats, allow me to put those worries to rest. The Noblesse Anime actually does a much better job at showing what a Full Power Raizel can do.

The full video is here but be warned it is 37:11 minutes long lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdB2uLtxVdo

I took the liberty of taking of screenshots of their battle. First I'd like to show that the area they are fighting in is actually an entire country:

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When Raizel's and Muzaka's final attacks clash, the resulting explosion completely engulfs the entire country. On the video it starts at 32:40 and the explosion spreads to destroy the entire country:

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Not only does this show that Raizel is easily island level or above, it also shows that his durability is extremely high. Raizel was severely wounded by Muzaka in their battle because he was Raizel's first real friend. When Muzaka were into a rage after a human killed his daughter, he immediately set out to destroy all the humans. As the Noblesse, it is Raizel's duty to protect the human world. Caught between the internal conflict of his sacred duty and his love for his friend, Raizel takes the blunt of Muzaka's rage. Muzaka rains hit after hit on Raizel and eventually an injured Raizel is forced to defend himself and stop his friend. After their final attacks collide, a wounded Raizel moves to the edge of the country and forces himself into a slumber to recover. Raizel is caught up in the explosion and left to sleep undisturbed for 811 years.

So Raizel's true power, is actually greater than Madara's. In fact, Madara need to use Perfect Susanoo to even come close to Raizel's power.

Hax vs Hax:

Mind Control vs Genjutsu

I mean, Madara locked A (Fourth Raikage) into a simple genjutsu and average Shinobi are taught how to counter Genjutsu, so Kage Level fighters being fallen under a simple genjutsu trick tells you the potency that Madara has even with his weakest moves

Genjutsu and Mind Control aren't the same thing. A Genjutsu controls the opponent's chakra flow in their head to disrupt the five senses. It can be canceled by disrupting that chakra flow, either increasing one's power or having a partner agitate the chakra flow.

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Mind Control is as its name suggests, the literal control of the opponent's mind. It doesn't have the same weakness as Genjutsu where disrupting the internal energy can cancel its effects. In Raizel's case it is quite literally him forcing his opponent's mind to do and act upon his commands. In the Naruto world, this is more similar to Ino's, Mind Body Switch Technique.

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And as we have seen, on a fellow Sharigan user and someone in similar power standing to Madara, Ino's Mind Body Switch Technique worked just fine on Obito, so Genjutsu resistance won't help against Mind Control:

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So while Genjutsu won't work on Raizel due to his high mental resistance, Madara's Genjutsu resistance will do little to help him against Raizel's Mind Control.

Limbo:

You're right, this is the one area where Madara has the clear advantage. Raizel can't target Limbo but since Limbo has the same stats as Madara, its still not going to change the outcome of the battle that much. As I've shown above, a full power Raizel took a country size explosion while severely wounded and survived. Heck, he has stomped characters who can make island sized explosion (see Noblesse Scaling section). Limbo might be able to buy Madara some time, but against Raizel's overwhelming power, it won't save him.

Rinnegan Hax:

The Rinnegan gives Madara some nice hax but unfortunately now of them will help against Raizel. The only relevant abilities being Soul Steal and Deva Path are easily countered. Soul Steal requires physical contact and that simple isn't happening for a number of reasons:

1 - Raizel has a barrier

2 - Raizel is almost always flying

3 - Raizel's telekinesis would have long crushed Madara into paste before he can make physical contact

Deva Path is even easily to counter as Raizel's attack power can easily overpower all of the CT attacks Madara has pulled. Raizel can easily outright destroy them all.

Telekinesis:

Raizel's telekinesis overpowers Ragus' beam and cuts deep gashes into his body. Ragus' beam could destroy multiple mountains:

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Tbh not really seeing the multi-mountain level feat here, those look more like large hills/small mountains imo. However, has done way better and his durability far exceeds this

Those are definitely mountains, like I said before, the scaling in Noblesse just isn't up the same standard as Naruto. It wouldn't make sense for those to be hills because before that feat Ragus is stomping several characters who are absolutely mountain level fighters with ease. The fact that Raizel overpowered a beam strong enough to blast through multiple mountains shows his telekinesis is at least on that level of power.

Now if you reference the Durability section you will see that Madara's actual durable isn't as high as you think. For starters, his body was destroyed by his own meteor attack while Ohoki and Gaara both survived (Ohnoki at the epicenter of the meteor's impact). Then you have the Raikage breaking Madara's partial Susanoo. This pretty much solidifies that if Madara isn't within his Perfect Susanoo his durability is much lower.

Raizel's telekinesis is without a doubt stronger than the Madara's Meteors and the Raikage's strike. Given the enormous range of Raizel's telekinesis there is no reason he can't rag doll Madara's body even if he is camping inside Perfect Susanoo.

Blood Vortex:

This is what gives Raizel the definite win here. Madara has no defense against a force he can't counter or escape. Even within Perfect Susanoo there is nothing stopping Raizel from crushing Madara with a Blood Vortex.

Raizel using the Blood Vortex to kill Maduke, a character strong enough to overpower an exhausted Raizel and full power Muzaka (remember Muzaka and Raizel's attack destroyed a country) more than shows that his Blood Vortex is packing the power to one shot the Uchiha.

Limbo, Rinnegan, Sharigan, Susanoo all mean nothing when a vortex is being spawned right on top of Madara that immediately crushes him into nothing.

Blood Manipulation:

Something I didn't touch on before that is ironically extremely dangerous for Madara is Raizel's ability to manipulate his opponent's blood. When angered, Raizel destroys Ignes Kravei's eyes after he finds out she tortured his friends:

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Since basically 90% of Madara's powers come from his dojutsu, having his eyes crushed would absolutely cripple him.

Countering your Conclusion:

His hax, Raizel has no answers for being paralyzed by the Black Receivers due to, what I'm assuming, his lack of H2H feats. Raizel also has no answer for his attacks being reflected back at him, and most importantly of all, Limbo.

The Black Receivers were actually never used by Madara and its highly unlikely he would ever use them to being with. Also it was seen that they can be overpowered with enough force like when Naruto freed himself of them by going Eight Tails Mode, which Raizel is easily stronger than.

H2H combat doesn't really happen with Raizel. He would just block everything with his barriers or telekinesis.

I believe you're referring to the Uchiha Fan here correct? While its definitely cool, the Fan would only help with projectile attacks. Raizel at full power, doesn't use projectiles anymore. He either crushes his opponent with Telekinesis or a Blood Vortex, neither of switch the Uchiha Fan will work against.

Limbo would be a problem if Madara lives long enough to use it. Limbo's best feats pre-sage Madara are punching around the Tailed Beasts who other than Kurama are sitting around the mountain-multi mountain range. Those types of attacks are too weak to even injure a Full Power Raizel.

Raizel's best Attack Power and Durability feats aren't even close to what Madara has, in fact, they're comparable to Madara in his first appearance and characters who Madara one-shotted. The only debatable part is speed, which isn't saving Raizel here.

Actually its the other way around. Looking at Raizel's best DC feat, he would easily one shot Madara, even with his Perfect Susanoo. The battle won't come to that though as Madara can't defend against Telekinesis or Blood Vortex, both are Raizel's starting moves.

Raizel on the other hand, has tanked and survived attacks far greater than what Madara can dish out.

Madara is crazy stronger.

Island level with Perfect Susanoo and Kurama vs Country level....looks like its Raizel who is crazy stronger.

Madara is more versatile

Versatility only help when those extra abilities can be useful in the fight. The only abilities Madara has that Raizel has no counter for is Limbo and that only matters if Madara lives long enough to use it, which he won't

My Conclusion:

This is Raizel's fight to win for the following reasons:

- In almost very category Raizel is superior, Stats and lethal abilities

- The only ability Madara has that Raizel can't counter directly is Limbo but that won't help much since Madara can be easily one shot by Raizel's Telekinesis or Blood Vortex

- If Raizel gets mad he will destroy Madara's eyes, instantly ending the fight as Madara will lost his ability to fight back with the Sharigan or Rinnegan

- Raizel can take all of the Madara's attacks with his superior durability and defenses but Madara has no way to counter Raizel's lethal telekinesis or Blood Vortex

- Madara is a jobber, in almost every fight he has been in, he constantly underestimates and belittles his opponent. The only person he has ever fought serious from the get go was Hashirama and that's because of their personal relationship. Here Madara will job like always and be instantly killed by Raizel who, when he must fight is lethal with his first ability.

Raizel has just one word for you Madara:

No Caption Provided

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Madara Responds.

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Countering your Counters against Madara

“While Madara's attack power with Susanoo can causally split mountains, his attack power without Susanoo is not as high. Take for instance his power with the Kages. None of them have the durability to withstand a single slash from Madara's Susanoo and yet they were able to trade blows to Madara prior to him using his Perfect Susanoo. Now granted, this is a jobbing Madara, it does show that his Attack Power outside of Susanoo isn't as strong. I could post scans from that battle but I think we all know what I'm talking about and are familiar enough with the series to remember that battle.”

Madara did one-shot the Tailed Beasts though with his physicals, he isn’t a slouch, so like you said he was simply jobbing against the kage. As for the Tailed Beasts, well, they’re something on another level. Gyuki for example, wiped out a large forest by simply swinging his tails. This forest was shown to be comparable to some mountains.

https://imgur.com/a/t231yRq

Remember this large forest pretty much set up the battlefield for the rest of the manga. Doing this much damage should clock at around mountain level, considering it tanked these strikes, and the Jinchuuriki too, this should undoubtedly prove the Tailed Beasts having mountain level physicals, which means Madara one-shotting them to the ground also prove his physicals on Mountain to Multi-Mountain level.

And you’re correct that Madara in Susanoo state amps his stats and overall power, which would definitely place him above all this, and with what you shown for Raizel, I believe this is enough to beat him.

“For starters, Madara's meteor's actually destroyed his Edo Tensei body. Madara himself even remarks that he was intending on destroying himself and Mu's Edo bodies since that was the purpose of the Edo Tensei jutsu to begin with. In the scans below you can clearly see Madara and Mu's Edo Tensei bodies being restored after the Meteors make impact.”

Woah Woah Woah, it’s very clearly shown that Madara in Edo form had weaker durability, otherwise it would’ve been impossible for the Kage to even put a dent in him, or injure him for that matter, I have no idea why you’re even using this “anti-feat” because Madara clearly shows to have tanked worse.

“While normally meteor feats like this are very impressive what really discredits Madara is the fact that Gaara and more importantly Ohoki survive the meteor's impact. Ohoki at the epicenter of the meteor's impact took the most damage and while the impact cripples him, his body is still intact unlike Madara and Mu. If the meteor's DC was in the island level range, both Gaara and Ohoki would have easily been killed along with all the other fodder ninja around the impact:”

Some of the Shinobi that survived were clear PIS, this shouldn’t take away Madara’s clear feat, in fact Onoki had lifted an island before with his powers, so claiming Tengai Shinsei being around the island level range is actually somewhat logical. Not sure about it destroying an actual island, but with the mass, it should equate to something similar. And I’m positive Madara could’ve made more of the meteors consider how nonchalant he was when the meteors were dropping

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“Second the Hirudora feat isn't as impressive as it seems. Hirudora isn't an energy blast. It is a focused blast of pressurized air. The big explosion next to Island Turtle isn't an energy blast at all but rather the pressurized air being released. So you can't call this an island level attack, its simple a super focused jet of attack that explodes with a large release of wind after impact. While still powerful, its not an island level attack, otherwise Kisame would have died instantly:”

Firstly, I don’t believe I claimed Hirudora was an Island level energy blast, but I don’t see how you explaining what it really is makes it not an Island Level attack, the anime shows it was like an earthquake on the island. Anyway based on everything else I showed, I don’t really need the Hirudora feat that much.

“To top all of that off, if Hirudora was actually an island level attack, Madara's partial Susanoo would have shatter like when Raikage broke it and he is definitely not punching with island level attacks:”

I don’t know why you keep using Edo Madara as somehow a way for anti-feats. It’s like using saying Goku being hurt by a fodder attack while in SSJ form somehow correlates the durability when he is in SSB form. It doesn’t work an it comes off kind of lowballing. The feats I have provided obviously overrule what may have happened during the Kage fight.

“This is actually misleading. The Tailed Beast can causally destroy mountains with their Tailed Beast Bombs. Their individual physical strength isn't on that level. In your first scan you can see Madara's partial Susanoo is being beat by the Tailed Beasts. As I showed above, Madara's partial Susanoo can be broken by someone like the Raikage. Madara even loses an arm to the Tailed Beast's physical assault.”

I already shown that the Tailed Beasts can operate at that high of a level. And I still don’t know why you intend to keep showing off Raikage punching Madara’s Susanoo as somehow an anti-feat, when you’re using a weaker Madara in that scene.

The fact how Madara also loses an arm only should be a feat for him, not a anti-feat.

Countering against the Noblesse Part I: Power & Stats

“So moral of the story, size doesn't matter in Noblesse. If it looks like a mountain it is a mountain.”

All I see is visual inconsistencies really, which should obviously be questioned about. This also seems that you’re using one fight on an island, which wouldn’t correlate to all the other feats you presented. My mind not really changed tbh, this just makes doubt some of the feats even more.

“I took the liberty of taking of screenshots of their battle. First I'd like to show that the area they are fighting in is actually an entire country”

Is there any proof that this country is as big as, lets say, Turkey? This isn’t as important as the other questions I’m later going to ask though. However, it could be depending on your answer.

“When Raizel's and Muzaka's final attacks clash, the resulting explosion completely engulfs the entire country. On the video it starts at 32:40 and the explosion spreads to destroy the entire country”

IIRC that explosion was a slow moving one, correct? Like, it took some time to engulf Raizel casket? Wouldn’t that make the explosion weaker than when it first detonate?

Using basic physics, it's possible this explosion wasn't as powerful as you claim. Yes, it destroyed a country, but then again a fire alone can destroy a city, is fire city level? No.

  • There weren't shockwaves if I remember correctly
  • It was very slow moving. Mass x Acceleration = Force, the mass of the object wasn't that big tbh, it didn't really dwarf even large hills
  • Seems inconsistent, like here
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Wasn't Mazuka at the center of this explosion? How is it that the epicenter seems calm while this country busting explosion is happening?

Then there are the hills it can't even dwarf.

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The humans look comparable to the base of the hill itself.

“Muzaka rains hit after hit on Raizel and eventually an injured Raizel is forced to defend himself and stop his friend. After their final attacks collide, a wounded Raizel moves to the edge of the country and forces himself into a slumber to recover. Raizel is caught up in the explosion and left to sleep undisturbed for 811 years.”

Alright here’s my main question, does this casket at all protect Raizel? Or did it get vaped? Because it seems that the casket was meant for more of a protective barrier for Raizel.

“So Raizel's true power, is actually greater than Madara's. In fact, Madara need to use Perfect Susanoo to even come close to Raizel's power.”

Not really tbh, if that was Raizel at full power, it really isn’t that impressive. Madara has casual feats in both strength, durability, and DC that are multi-mountain to island level, while in your other feats you presented had Raizel being harmed by way weaker attacks and his DC doesn’t seem that consistent. I’d still say for the hax that Madara possess (especially Limbo) that he’ll win the battle, as well as being more skilled, since he could’ve took down a whole entire army filled with skilled superhumans, with speeds at around supersonic to hypersonic at the least. So Madara getting serious could overwhelm Raizel with superior physicals in both Limbo and real life.

The first 2:05 minutes are the most important ones.

Countering against the Noblesse Part II: Hax

“Genjutsu and Mind Control aren't the same thing. A Genjutsu controls the opponent's chakra flow in their head to disrupt the five senses. It can be canceled by disrupting that chakra flow, either increasing one's power or having a partner agitate the chakra flow.”

Genjutsu since then has been changed, to the point where it can work on people without even having chakra. So it could still definitely affect Raizel without attacking his flow.

“Mind Control is as its name suggests, the literal control of the opponent's mind. It doesn't have the same weakness as Genjutsu where disrupting the internal energy can cancel its effects. In Raizel's case it is quite literally him forcing his opponent's mind to do and act upon his commands. In the Naruto world, this is more similar to Ino's, Mind Body Switch Technique.”

But Ino and her family are pretty damn fodder to people who are way below to Madara himself. But granted Raizel isn’t no Ino, so may I ask if Raizel’s Mind Control has weaknesses or has it ever been broken out of?

“And as we have seen, on a fellow Sharigan user and someone in similar power standing to Madara, Ino's Mind Body Switch Technique worked just fine on Obito, so Genjutsu resistance won't help against Mind Control”

Obito isn’t close to Madara at all, Obito was getting evened out by a lot of people, including Kakashi and Naruto, however Madara easily blitzed Naruto and I’m sure he would curb Kakashi too. In the scans you posted, Obito shook the jutsu off in two seconds, while Madara probably wouldn’t even let that happen tbh, even Kakuzu saw through her schemes.

“So while Genjutsu won't work on Raizel due to his high mental resistance, Madara's Genjutsu resistance will do little to help him against Raizel's Mind Control.”

You’re assuming this off because Obito failed to counter Ino’s jutsu, and yet this somehow correlates to Madara, who is superior to Obito in every single way? Not buying it, I need to see how good the Mind Control really is.

“As I've shown above, a full power Raizel took a country size explosion while severely wounded and survived. Heck, he has stomped characters who can make island sized explosion (see Noblesse Scaling section). Limbo might be able to buy Madara some time, but against Raizel's overwhelming power, it won't save him.”

I don’t believe your claims there helped that much, seemed a little speculative. Isn’t really relevant anyway, the Limbo Clone operates on blunt force attacks most of the time, Raizel surviving explosions is irrelevant.

“Soul Steal requires physical contact and that simple isn't happening for a number of reasons:

1 - Raizel has a barrier

2 - Raizel is almost always flying

3 - Raizel's telekinesis would have long crushed Madara into paste before he can make physical contact”

1- How strong is this barrier?

2- What does flying have to do with anything? Madara has already reached high enough heights with his Kurama summoning. Madara can jump pretty high as shown with his Limbo Clone too. What is flight going to do if he summons Kurama and sends a Bijuudama along Raziel's way?

3- The TK Raizel has doesn’t have enough feats to matter to Madara, it’s got great range, but overall power? Not enough.

“Deva Path is even easily to counter as Raizel's attack power can easily overpower all of the CT attacks Madara has pulled. Raizel can easily outright destroy them all.”

Eh, I can agree with this tbh.

“It wouldn't make sense for those to be hills because before that feat Ragus is stomping several characters who are absolutely mountain level fighters with ease.”

This has to do with the potency of Ragus powers, not the geographical location around them.

“For starters, his body was destroyed by his own meteor attack while Ohoki and Gaara both survived (Ohnoki at the epicenter of the meteor's impact).”

You can’t use this as an anti-feat as I have already explained, using weaker forms of Madara isn’t going to help against the case of an alive Madara with no restrictions and a much higher durability as I have provided. (Plus it just wouldn’t make sense for Onoki and Gaara to have higher durability than Madara lol)

“Then you have the Raikage breaking Madara's partial Susanoo. This pretty much solidifies that if Madara isn't within his Perfect Susanoo his durability is much lower.”

I already countered this. Alive Madara tanking dozens and dozens of mountain level physicals beasts strikes>>>>A weaker form not tanking a punch from a fodder strike. I shouldn’t really be saying this tbh.

“Raizel's telekinesis is without a doubt stronger than the Madara's Meteors and the Raikage's strike. Given the enormous range of Raizel's telekinesis there is no reason he can't rag doll Madara's body even if he is camping inside Perfect Susanoo.”

I can give you the latter part of that sentence, however, the best feats you posted for Raizel’s TK were around multi-mountain, Madara in his first appearance produced a multi-mountain attack casually, and he only go stronger from there. Madara seemed to be able to produce more than two judging from his attitude, he just went with two since that was probably enough to destroy the army.

“This is what gives Raizel the definite win here. Madara has no defense against a force he can't counter or escape. Even within Perfect Susanoo there is nothing stopping Raizel from crushing Madara with a Blood Vortex.

Raizel using the Blood Vortex to kill Maduke, a character strong enough to overpower an exhausted Raizel and full power Muzaka (remember Muzaka and Raizel's attack destroyed a country) more than shows that his Blood Vortex is packing the power to one shot the Uchiha.

Limbo, Rinnegan, Sharigan, Susanoo all mean nothing when a vortex is being spawned right on top of Madara that immediately crushes him into nothing.”

This is definitely quite the powerful hax, likely the strongest one you’ve presented so far, Madara possess Hashirama’s cells, meaning he can regen whenever he needs to, and if he is at death’s door, he could possibly pull out Izanagi and might come back.

“Something I didn't touch on before that is ironically extremely dangerous for Madara is Raizel's ability to manipulate his opponent's blood. When angered, Raizel destroys Ignes Kravei's eyes after he finds out she tortured his friends”

This isn’t as impressive as you want to make it if we think about it, he destroyed her eyes because he knew that she tortured his friends, of course he’s going to get pissed and caused him to go morals off/bloodlusted state. He’s not going to start out like that IC, he has no reason to do that to Madara.

And Madara has fought blind before, and he owned and still blitzed Naruto. So add 1 and 1 together this isn’t as impressive as you’re trying to make it seem, definitely not a game winner.

Countering the Noblesse Part III: The Conclusion

“The Black Receivers were actually never used by Madara and its highly unlikely he would ever use them to being with. Also it was seen that they can be overpowered with enough force like when Naruto freed himself of them by going Eight Tails Mode, which Raizel is easily stronger than.”

Huh? He used them against Tobirama and Hashirama, and paralysed both, and Hashirama and Tobirama are more powerful than Naruto going Six Tails. You’re again using other characters mishaps to try and judge Madara off it, it won’t work, Madara is likely the most skilled and powerful shinobi ever, only rivaled by Naruto/Sasuke/Otsutsuki. It just doesn’t correlate, anything Obito and Nagato could do, Madara could do it way way way better.

“H2H combat doesn't really happen with Raizel. He would just block everything with his barriers or telekinesis.”

Which is exactly why Madara will likely curb the second Limbo is turned on, Raizel would lose hard in CQC and with a physically superior opponent too. Raizel would be lucky to fly, now with Limbo he definitely isn’t escaping being pummeled.

“Limbo would be a problem if Madara lives long enough to use it. Limbo's best feats pre-sage Madara are punching around the Tailed Beasts who other than Kurama are sitting around the mountain-multi mountain range. Those types of attacks are too weak to even injure a Full Power Raizel.”

Not really, the best feats you presented for Raizel as of now have either been speculative or weaker than Madara’s most casual feats.

“Actually its the other way around. Looking at Raizel's best DC feat, he would easily one shot Madara, even with his Perfect Susanoo.”

Wasn’t that a shared feat with Muzuka? And we still don’t know the size of the country. And wouldn’t have taken time for Raizel to charge up that attack, this is an IC fight, so I doubt Raizel will be busting “countries” at the start, while Madara always does CQC/H2H when fighting, and his physicals are far above Raizel based on feats and add Limbo in, it would be too much.

“Raizel on the other hand, has tanked and survived attacks far greater than what Madara can dish out.”

This is just wrong based on everything that has been presented thus far, Raizel didn’t survive that explosion himself, it seemed the casket protected him.

“Island level with Perfect Susanoo and Kurama vs Country level....looks like its Raizel who is crazy stronger.”

IC Island Level Person who always goes for the kill vs A person who could possibly be Multi-Mountain with telekinesis, no feats as of now, just potency wise. This ain’t it.

“Versatility only help when those extra abilities can be useful in the fight.”

They’re pretty useful, the Black Rod Receivers alone would destroy Raizel in an IC bout, add in Limbo, Izanagi, basic Genjutsu, Statue Chains, etc. It’s just too much, especially since Madara uses these things in quick motion one after the other.

“- In almost very category Raizel is superior, Stats and lethal abilities”

Definitely not true, the only stats debate that Raizel could have is speed (we don’t know yet for sure), and possibly durability, but that seems inconsistent based on what you showed me. The only relevant ability Raizel has that could be dangerous is Blood Vortex, which all you showed was him killing Maduke (which I’m assuming was a long fight, not that IC) and that he stopped the 4 Union Elders with Telekinesis or Mind Control then used Blood Vortex. BV is definitely not a starter for Raizel as you have shown thus far. Meanwhile, Madara could possibly summon Kurama whenever he feels like it, so Raizel is definitely outclassed in stats, and is technically outclassed in lethal abilities considering there is only one ability that could prove harmful to Madara at the start of the fight. The whole entire crushing eyes thing doesn’t mean much, Madara can always fight blind and has incredible sensing powers.

Also, you didn’t really counter Madara surviving dozens of TBB, from a Full-Powered Kurama nonetheless, that should clock out at Island Level to possibly a small country level durability feat, while Raizel still seems to be inconsistent in Durability, with his best feat was when he was protected by a casket.

“- The only ability Madara has that Raizel can't counter directly is Limbo but that won't help much since Madara can be easily one shot by Raizel's Telekinesis or Blood Vortex”

Countered both of these, Telekinesis has no feats DC wise and for potency wise has zilch to put down Madara. And BV doesn’t seem to be a go-to immediately, which could cost Raizel the W.

“- If Raizel gets mad he will destroy Madara's eyes, instantly ending the fight as Madara will lost his ability to fight back with the Sharigan or Rinnegan”

Already discussed this, nothing Madara would do will turn on a Bloodlusted Raizel nor would it matter to Madara who has fought blind, and was still owning extremely skilled Shinobi.

“- Raizel can take all of the Madara's attacks with his superior durability and defenses but Madara has no way to counter Raizel's lethal telekinesis or Blood Vortex”

Already discussed this, not happening, Raizel ain’t surviving multi-mountain blows physically from a bae Madara and with PS boosting stats that’s a R.I.P

“- Madara is a jobber, in almost every fight he has been in, he constantly underestimates and belittles his opponent. The only person he has ever fought serious from the get go was Hashirama and that's because of their personal relationship.”

Madara only jobbed against the Kage because he was in Edo. Hasn’t really been jobbing since that. An alive Madara doesn’t play dumb.

“Here Madara will job like always and be instantly killed by Raizel who, when he must fight is lethal with his first ability.”

I’m assuming you’re using that one Raikage punch for example again...I shouldn’t have to explain why that doesn’t apply. Madara won’t be phased by most of Raizel’s abilities except for one.

The Second Conclusion:

It’s simple:

-Stats decisively goes to Madara, his casual feats best Raizel’s with the exception of speed. Then he could form in a PS which would be even worse since it amps his stats. Then he could summon Kurama possibly, so that makes things even worse too.

-Hax also goes to Madara, Raizel has no answer to most of his hax, Madara could summon a Limbo Clone (also superior physical stats to Raizel) get his black chakra receivers, smash them into Raizel, paralysing him from moving, use demonic statue chains to weaken Raizel immensely, and then simply kill him from there. All Raizel ahs really is Blood Vortex, which thus far can be deadly, but even as you posted, he used Telekinesis/Mind Control first then Blood Vortex, none of the former can affect Madara though. Madara definitely has this category.

-Skill is obviously Madara’s advantage, he can punch Raizel numerous of times, each dazing him (or simply kill) because of Raizel’s lack of consistent blunt force durability feats, and then Madara grabbing a Kunai, stabbing Raizel, back to punching, place a paper bomb, etc. Dude’s a freak at CQC, Raizel can’t resist him here.

-Madara is way too versatile again, can’t stress this enough people.

-Raizel’s best feats are only in potency wise, a speculative speed feat, and a casket protecting him from a large island/small country/country (who knows) blast. Madara ia more consistent in all ways.

Madara wins!

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#22 Posted by FaradaySloth (9981 posts) - - Show Bio

@mass it's finally here, sorry for the wait.

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#23 Posted by Mass (1295 posts) - - Show Bio

@faradaysloth: No problem, thanks for the reply. It will take me a couple of days to get my post up. I'm good with my next post being my last post. If you want the final post after that, that's fine by me and then we can call for votes :)

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#24 Posted by FaradaySloth (9981 posts) - - Show Bio

@mass: yeah this’ll likely be the last round. I’m thinking of taking a break from Comicvine after this tbh, so yeah, hopefully this’ll be a great finisher!