CaV Cadencev2 (Solid Snake) vs Wolverine08 (Cap) (Votes)

I vote for @cadencev2

@tparks:

and I loved that you used Merriam Webster Dictionary as a source in this battle, lol. Awesome!),

Hey, I'm the best there is :D

@jashro44: Thanks man. I seen the one where it stated he knew every fighting style, but never quite understood where the number for styles came from.

I know your a MGS fan, what was the deciding factor for your vote?

Thanks.

Any particular reason? Feedback would be useful.

My vote goes to @cadencev2. I felt he made the stronger argument for Snake winning, and put up better rebuttals.

@wolverine08: @jashro44: @laflux: Not to derail our thread but I wanted to point this out.

"learned from Manhunters,and Martial Artists, mastering every fighting style"

This says he mastered every style and this is older.

The more recent one states....

"There is 127 major styles of combat. Bruce learned them all from Akido to Yaw-Yan."

This reads he knows them not Mastered anything. And only mentions the 127 Major Styles not all the styles.

So IMO Batman is iffy with his claims of knowing every style and a master of them.

Thanks Veshark :) You being a cap fan that means alot.

@cadencev2:

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2:

I just posted that :)

It states word for word "127 major styles of combat. While Abroad, Bruce learned them all,"

Key phrases and words. Nothing about mastering them in the recent bio. Which makes more sense.

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2:

I just posted that :)

It states word for word "127 major styles of combat. While Abroad, Bruce learned them all,"

Key phrases and words. Nothing about mastering them in the recent bio. Which makes more sense.

You're being too picky about word use I am afraid. Writers probably don't see much difference between the words learned and mastered and I do not either.

@wolverine08:

Here are some more if you like.

Nothing wrong with your argument, I just think Snake is a harder character to debate for. And I think he pulled it off.

Ah, okay.

@cadencev2 Those two scans I posted up there were for you.

@wolverine08: I have 2 questions.

1) The first Scan is definitely seems legit. However is that pre crisis Batman? There is like 10 or more different versions of Batmans and they are not all equal in skill.

2) The Bio seems pretty straight forward, however how does Prometheus download all of batman skills and 29 more? How do you gain every known mastered martial art and then 29 more from other Martial artist? Does that mean Batman did not mastered those 29? that in itself makes no sense?

See why Mainstream comics suck. This is why I hate them. Too many writers and too many inconsistencies.

@cadencev2:

Yes, the first scan is Pre Crisis Batman. The particular comic is Detective Comics vol 1 #411written by Dennis O'Neil. The second scan probably meant that he copied the skills of those particular. Just because Batman and Lady Shiva both know all the world's martial arts they have the same exact knowledge on something like pressure points, or have the same exact. That is most likely why Prometheus was copying other fighters unique fighting styles after he copied Batman's.

did this thread remind anyone else of super smash bros brawl?

@wolverine08: So Pre Crisis mastered all the styles. While Post Crisis knows 127 down packed. I assume New 52 is the same. Earth 31 Batman with the year one Story line has Masted all styles according to that Year One bio. Awesome, i love Frank Miller's Batman. Since New 52 stalemated Earth 2 Batman, that means Classic Batman also only knows 127.

It is like a puzzle game for me :)

Snake has beaten foes way more powerful than Cap lol.

lol who's your guy?

me: sonic

@batnorris: ..... Snake..... Also embarrassingly I rock with Pikachu.

Did you you solid Snake is so fast, Sonic reaction time does not compare. He even kills princesses for kicks.

Snake even flat out killed Sonic!

He is just too much for captain America to win against :)

embarrassingly? he's my third guy!

and bro no dis respect but I came to terms long ago with the fact that no character is better than the next. you're not seeing the characters reaction times you're seeing the reaction times of the people on the controllers. Again, I realized long ago that any character can beat any character and it all depends on the player

@batnorris: Actually my best character is Ganondorf. He is my number one with almost no loses in friendly tournaments. Slow, but so much power!

There's way too much lowballing in this thread and regarding Steve fighting Iron Man, Tony's suits weren't as strong back then. @wolverine08 gets my vote

@dondave: Too much lowballing from both sides?

Gonna roll with wolverine8 this time out.

I'd say a little bit but more on Cadence's part to be honest

@lvenger Would you mind putting your two cents in here?

Actually Classic Iron Man was still pretty powerful back then, and good feats like moving the hellicarrier by himself. Even then I sure Wolverine08 could have brought up Iron Man beating the shit out of Cap in Civil War, Cap America surviving. Or the Avenger vs Invader mini when

It's just Captain America being AMERICA!

I'm not sure who to vote for those.

eh.... he's actually kinda my worst

I don't know I just cant use slow characters. same with bowser, donkey, wario... sure can use fast tho

btw u get my vote. great debating!

@wolverine08:

I'll start reading through this on my next study break, and come back with some thoughts and a vote=)

Snake, cadence

@wolverine08: Give me a chance to read it through and I'll cast my vote in due time today.

@lvenger:

Sure mate! Can't wait to hear your thoughts :D

A nice debate but I have to admit there was a clear advantage in this one. Cadence brought out the scans, videos and references in force to support his points which is always good that you can back up your points in a debate. But his weakness is that he did try and quote certain scans out of context ignoring the textbook/official statements corroborating Cap's overall fighting skill. And there were areas of the debate where he played aspects of Snake up as being game changers when they wouldn't change the fight as much as he claimed they would. And I feel his plethora of scans muddled up his overall case and made his overall points quite confusing lost amongst a myriad of showings. Sometimes it is better to focus on fewer scans that are relevant to your case. Still, you opened up the aruging better later on in the debate but it could have been more fleshed out and occur throughout the debate

And this is precisely what @wolverine08 did. He brought out the consistently reliable feats Cap had produced (from the new respect thread on here I presume) and utilised those to argue his logically coherent case that Cap possesses the physical strength to overpower Snake, the skill to outfight him and the reactions to dodge Snake's ranged attacks. His rebuttals were the crowning feature of the debate and he excellently catalogued the right kind of responses to each of Cadence's retorts against him. Though he could have dealt with Cadence's wall of scans more specifically, this didn't hamper his debating too much. Thus, I have to give my vote to one of the rising stars in street level debating on here even though I'm far from a street level expert myself.

Wolverine08. I felt like Cadence was building another respect thread, and his points were like "here are way better feats than your character" * posts a bunch of random feats with little explanation of why it matters.*

@cadencev2: I think you did well in your debate, but there wasn't enough evidence to convince me that Snake can beat Cap due to most of his feats being solely on shooting feats and not enough H2H feats or elaboration on why Snake could defend himself H2H well against the way Wolverine08 presented Cap's H2H skills. Because of that, I don't think there was enough counter argument as to how Snake could always keep Cap away and shoot him and stop him from closing in.

Lastly, the Snake's revenge material posted is not canon, but it didn't hurt you since you had other sources that showed Snake was knowledgeable in a lot of forms of combat.

@god_spawn:

Thank you for the vote Spawn. Anything you think I need to work on?

Just FYI that is BS!

Iron Man lifts Godzilla here and flies him miles away!

Yeah, he is ****ing weak >_> Complete BS. I am not lowballing anything. Tired of people saying I am lowballing when the evidence is right there!

Few things, one I mention CQC in detail and showed how Snake uses Guns in Close Combat as further proof instead of relying on range. Second, the Official Konami statement is still a official staement from Konami who own most of the rights to the MGS franchise and that is their offcial statement. Snakes Revenge maybe Ret Con into non canon, does not change the fact they stated this for their character.

Alright, this one is tough, and I hate to pick between two people I generally get along with and respect on these forums.

I think you both did well in presenting and wording your arguments, and backing said arguments. @cadencev2 put up a good and convincing argument for Snake, and probably a lot better one than I thought would have been possible for that character. Definitely good at going point for point, and proved yourself to be a tough opponent all around.

In the end though, my vote goes to @wolverine08. For someone who I remember saying they wanted to learn more about Cap not too terribly long ago, you definitely did your research, and came out sounding like you knew your stuff. Your post structure has definitely improved greatly from the last big debate I read of yours (you versus deathstroke I do believe), and to be honest, I am not sure there is much else I can throw out on this one. Your choice of scans looked to all be from legit sources, and the scan choices were well thought out.

Great work to both of you. Now, back to the books...study, study, study...

@lvenger: @god_spawn: So what your saying is I am a crappy debator now and days....

I mean seriously its the same freaking thing in my past 50 debates. Cadence made a respect thread, yet I still clearly make the points and counters backed by proof. Why all of a sudden I cannot win a debate now and days with you guys >_<

And yes I am butt hurt as I am tired of hearing about my style being the only reason I cannot win a vote from guys like ya. Did I not adress the points? Did I not counter his with scans and proof? Did I make a respect thread that had no bearing on what I was trying to convince others of?

I am sorry if I feel the need to show more for my characters who have little or no presence on the comic vine debate boards. Any body can debate for Captain America. Everyone knows who he is. I debate for characters that not many people know of, and thus I feel not using scans to prove their capabilities will simply get glossed over by readers.

So in the end your all just not into my style of scans for proof debating? I did the same thing in Deranged Midget battle here.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/cav-deranged-midget-gl-vs-cadencev2-invincible-vot-1506417/

Deranged Midget did the same as well! No one had a problem there. So what is the real deal here? Is it my style of Scans that you all simply disgust rather than my actual debating his points? You both mention my scans, so I am assuming that is the problem here. And a problem only veteran viners have a problem with too I am noticing.

@cadencev2:

I wouldn't say it's lowballing, but you tend to use some scans out of context and it looks like an attempt at lowballing.

@wyldsong:

Read till you drop bro :D

@cadencev2 said:

@dondave said:

@wolverine08 said:

@dondave: Too much lowballing from both sides?

I'd say a little bit but more on Cadence's part to be honest

Just FYI that is BS!

Iron Man lifts Godzilla here and flies him miles away!

Yeah, he is ****ing weak >_> Complete BS. I am not lowballing anything. Tired of people saying I am lowballing when the evidence is right there!

You're obviously doing something wrong if it comes up all the time

I really am sick and tired of people claiming me as a low baller. I see evidence in scans and I use it find a consistency. I love Indie Comics because they are very consistent with the same writer working on them. Because they have less than 1000s of issues which give inconsistent feats.

I will NEVER Accept High Ends for Mainstream Comic characters as they have more average (not Low showings) showings than their highest for a consistent bases to work from.

I think many people on this site get too caught up in the glamour of a popular mainstream character and forget they are not meant by the writers, or shown through average collection of showings, to be more than what a handful of zealous writers have showed.

Caps skill is arguable, nothing low balling about that. Go read the thousands of Batman vs Cap debates. Many knowledgeable people have shown the proof that Cap may not be skilled. If he was so skilled, like Shang Chi or Iron Fist, it would never be called in question. But the fact is his skill starts arguments.

Same for Cap tanking 100+ ton hits from from Blood Lusted Iron man, yet he has hundreds of showings getting injured from less than 1 ton of force.

I deal with facts, and averages. Yet I am a lowballer because I do not accept what others think is the standard. At least I put out consistent arguments. I could easily said Snake tanks 500 ton punches from Cyborg Ninja. I did not! I rationalize it as Grey Fox holding back. but you want to claim Cap tanking 100+ ton hits from IM and @dondave is cool with that.

Its unfair honestly. I am not lowballing jack ****.

Yet I never claimed Snake tanking or overpowering the 500 toner Grey Fox in my argument. i stated he clearly held back or would have realistically pulp Snake with ease. Yet you accept the fact Iron Man blood lusted would not pulp Cap with a single hit.

Your so bias.

@cadencev2:

I did note that it was a weaker armor if you go back and actually read the debate. Your post sounds like you have a vendetta against mainstream comics and think that people go against you just because you are using lesser known characters. @tparks uses a plethora of lesser known comic characters and he does not run into this problem. Fact of the matter is, you lowballed at several points during this debate, made several generalizations like Captain America just shouting Avengers Assemble and" hoping for the best", and used out of context scans. I and several users called you out on your lowballing because it is a habit for you. Use this debate to improve your weakness with this particular issue.

....maybe.