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#1 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
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VS

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Solid Snake vs Captain America.

Cap is Current. Solid Snake is in his prime.

Shield and Marvel now armor for Cap.

Snake gets all his starting gear from Games and Comics.

Battle to the Death or KO.

Battle here. Snake is red and Cap is blue.

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#2 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by MonsterStomp (36540 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: I will get to this now.

Alright, what have we here? Super Soldier vs Super Soldier.

First of people think Snake is peak human, I did for the longest time. Untrue. He is clearly batman level Super Human where his punches dent solid steel, causes shock waves from impacts, and takes said attacks to the face with little damage. He is durable and stronger than any peak human measurement. He is also fast as hell in reaction time. He dodges attacks from Mach 2 Cyber Ninja and Vamp. He also dodged a Rail Gun shot at his old age in MGS4 after the shot was fired. He regularly out paces train gunmen aim. He also has super Human Stamina due to Nanites that remove fatigue and dampen pain.

Some examples of stats.

Super Human Stats

We know this Super Human ability includes Durability and Strength as well Speed.

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Snake easily takes Electrocution till he is smoking. He is then set free and continues on with his mission right after this.

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Survives point blank Semtex explosion from Fatman.

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out of the 100s of Marines on this Oil Tanker that sinks, Snake is the only one to swim out of it, and swim to shore through the ocean currents to land. He does it undetected as well. Ocelot and the Cypher drones monitoring the accident did not even detect Snake's survival.

Even in a 70+ year old body (Due to a Genetic Rapid Aging, MGS4 takes place only a FIVE YEARS since MGS2 when we last seen in his prime Snake) Snake is able to hit with enough force to cause a vibration felt all around 4:20. He is able to take the beating from Liquid Ocelot who has same strength, taking punches to the face with little damage. In a 70+ year old body.

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He also manage to crawl his way through a Microwave Passage Hall. Smoking in the end! Then he battles some more soon after that!

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Again this is all in a severely crippled and aged body. Not even in his prime.

Solid snake is not just a stat wise Super Soldier. He is a Stealth Operative of the highest degree, the best. He is also a Close Combat Master, beating out the best Martial Artist and Super Human foes with his intimate Combat skill. Lets look at Solid Snake's Bio in order.

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Solis Snake is stated by Konami (who own more than half the rights to Snake) that he is John Rambo, Lawrence of Arabia, James Bond, and John Wayne combined! He has Mastered (not know like sorry @$$ Batman, I said it) 32 Combat Forms. He is also skilled in the most tactical and effectoive close combat form in the world known as CQC. As read through the rest of his Bio he has extensive knowledge of taking down Super Humans as well Giant Nuclear Mechs. Which gives us our current hero of IDW Comics

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Solid Snake has a 180 IQ, near Super Human physical abilities, and is considered one of the best Martial Artist / Marksmen in the world.

What do we know of Snake other Exploits as a awesome Super Soldier before these comics take place? We know Snake prior Missions involved taking down armies while invading the best military bases with cutting edge Sci-fi Tech on the planet twice. He had taken down 2 Metal Gears in both Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2. He has beaten the greatest Soldier on the planet Big Boss in the Metal Gear Games twice.

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Simply put Snake is a Bad @$$. Now with that said, what starting gear he has? He is equiped as followed.

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He carried this gear in the beginnings of MGS2 for Tanker and Big Shell missions. He also came equipped with the Stealth Unit if you unlocked in in MGS1 and starts with it in MGS2.

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To finish it off, every machine he has a Solition Radar and Nanites.

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His Nanites allow him to never suffer severe Stamina issues as well heal quickly. He also has built in Radar system that tracks bio signatures.

Well, that is all i feel to fill you in at the moment on. Solid Snake is one of the best fictional Super Soldiers of our time. Now Cap is no slouch himself, but Bucky gives Cap a hard time. Snake is Bucky, Punisher, and Moon Knight combined. Cap has his work cut out for him.

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#9 Posted by GhostRavage (14922 posts) - - Show Bio

Tis Gun B Gud.

Online
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#10 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Very good argument and scans. Solid Snake is a very dangerous super solider if I say so myself. I will address your statements about Solid Snake's speed, strength, and skill in comparison to Captain America's to get this debate rolling.

Steve Rogers is one of the Marvel Universe's greatest combatants to ever walk the planet. He's gone toe to toe with and stalemated several of Marvel's best fighters. For some proof on Steve's deadly fighting prowess:

Fighting Skill:

Here, he shows that he is a master of all forms of combat known to man while he fights Baron Zemo.

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Here, he achieves a stalemates of sorts with Daredevil, one of Marvel's best fighters and someone extremely adept in usage of pressure points.

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Manhandles the highly skilled French mercenary Batroc the Leaper.

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Here, Captain America gives John Steele, a man as shown in the scans below, is strong enough to nonchalantly bend military tanks (Easily a 10+ tonner) and is self admittedly faster than Cap. Steve did eventually lose after Steele broke his leg, but it is still a great showing of Steve's martial art prowess in that he is able to keep up with someone so physically superior to him.

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Gives Crossbones a beatdown.

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Has an extensive knowledge of pressure points, as shown in these scans.

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Even unenhanced and fighting guys who have super solider serum enhanced physicals that should be equal to his regular physicals, Steve dominates.

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Another aspect of Steve's skill set that will give Solid Snake absolute hell is his borderline supernatural ability to "adapt" to fighting situations and his opponent's particular style of fighting which has been noted by geniuses like Kang the Conqueror and Black Panther.

Here, Kang the Conqueror notes that Steve's ability to adapt to has allowed him to master zero gravity combat more completely than warrior's who have been training for decades.

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Black Panther notes that Captain America can instinctively adapt to any fighting style an opponent brings to the table against him, and he can predict an opponent's movements by feeling changes in air currents. Pretty much makes Solid Snake's stealth useless :)

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To sum it up: Captain America's top tier fighting skill by itself will be a big problem. Steve's mastery over martial arts, his real life combat prowess honed through his time in the military, smooth fighting style will give him a good advantage here. And add in his ability to adapt in fights, he will be giving Solid Snake absolute hell here just through fighting skill alone.

In regards to strength, while you did post some impressive feats showcasing Solud Snake's strength, I still think Steve's super soldier serum enhanced strength is superior to his. When you look at feats, Steve is just packing more punch here in my opinion.

Strength:

Can causally bench press 1,100 lbs.

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Here, Steve pulls down a helicopter with two men in it using his strength alone and throws his shield hard enough to send it completely through a truck.

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Here casually walks around overhead pressing a motorcycle(Which on average weigh 1,000+ lbs dry.), and picks up and throws the 750 lb. Big Bertha.

Hauls a supplies truck through the desert and bends the flap of a jet from outside.

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Breaks out of ice with absolutely no leverage.

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Steve will be leaving more damage with his attacks here.

To really sell it home just how strong Steve is, just look at the recently released Captain America: Living Legend #1

Here, Steve sends his shield completely through a tank turett.

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To give you an idea why this feat is so impressive, tank turrets on average weigh 16-20 tons, yet this turret is sent flying on side by the sheer power Captain America's shield toss commands. Sure the shield did some of the work, but the momentum and power needed for the shield to go completely through that turret needed most of its power from Steve's super solider serum enhanced strength.

Solid Snake has a pretty insane reaction time, but as Steve noted in the scan below, his super serum enhanced brain literally works so fast that things like bullets move in slow motion to him.

Speed/Reaction Time:

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Outraces gun fire after it has been fired at close range, and dodges point blank fire while circling fast enough to completely avoid detection and disarm two thugs.

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Captain America can even dodge three rapid blasts (which move at the speed of sound) from Skylar.

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Counters Quicksilver and another speedster.

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Cap is cornered by a large group of men on motorcycles who encircle him, the leader then shoots a flamethrower and Cap evades moving so fast that they don’t even see him jump away. A group of men on motorcycles encircle him and he moved so fast that they thought that they had set him on fire.

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Cap moves so fast that these guys barely even see him flip right past him,which leaves them confused (and they were waiting for him,all while dodging gunfire), and moves so fast that some Nazis can not react to him.

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Captain America can use his superior speed/reaction time to avoid Solid Snake's attacks.

Conclusion:

To conclude my opener, I believe that in comparison to what you have shown, Captain America is physically superior to Solid Snake in terms of strength and speed/reaction time, and holds an advantage in combat with his ability to adapt to an opponent's fighting skill. Due to these things, when this fight gets into close ranged combat these factors are going to tilt the fight in a noticeable fashion into Steve's favor. And we haven't even gotten into Steve's baseline durability/durability with his Marvel Now armor, shield use, and stamina. Captain America will work for the victory, but Solid Snake isn't anything he hasn't seen before. Steve will take the majority in this battle.

Your move mate :)

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#11 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

It's your turn @cadencev2. You got your work cut out for you :)

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#12 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: I will get on it tonight. Just finished reading it over and plotting now.

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#13 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Cool mate. Hope this is a great debate.

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#14 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Cool mate. Hope this is a great debate.

Oh it will be. I lol when you found the good old "Democracy rocks you commy bastard" scan of Cap and Zemo.

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#15 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2:

Cool mate. Hope this is a great debate.

Oh it will be. I lol when you found the good old "Democracy rocks you commy bastard" scan of Cap and Zemo.

Edited my post a bit just to let you know.

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#16 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08:

Here, he shows that he is a master of all forms of combat known to man while he fights Baron Zemo.

This is interesting, and seems contradicting.

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1) Cap here fights a guy who knows every martial art, yet Cap explains it does not matter against a stronger, faster, and better train fighter. Seems to suggest he does not know every martial art in the world.

2) Iron Fist who only mastered a couple martial arts recognizes Cap skill is very basic, not advance at all, however his stats make the difference.

This is solid proof Cap has not mastered any martial art on panel. He has knowldge of them and thanks to his stats can compete with those who are masters.

Here, he achieves a stalemates of sorts with Daredevil, one of Marvel's best fighters and someone extremely adept in usage of pressure points.

Daredevil is really good fighter when he tries. It seems here he is holding back while trying to reason with Steve. Meanwhile Steve is trying his hardest to get DD into Custody.

Here, Captain America gives John Steele, a man as shown in the scans below, is strong enough to nonchalantly bend military tanks (Easily a 10+ tonner) and is self admittedly faster than Cap. Steve did eventually lose after Steele broke his leg, but it is still a great showing of Steve's martial art prowess in that he is able to keep up with someone so physically superior to him.

This is impressive. It reminds me of a foe Snake fought and beaten as well.

Snake vs Cyborg Ninja

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The Cyborg Ninja is insane fast, strong, and has a Sword that cut anything. Take note, as Snake does not allow that sword to touch him! Snake keeps up fine in a tight space thanks to Speed, Skill, Muscle Memory from years of the best training, and plain Super Human Genes. In this epic fight, Snake is physically able to match the Ninja. To make this more Impressive is the Cyborg Ninja resume!

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This is Grey Fox. One of the best killers in the world and most accomplish member of Fox Hound. At the time he was leagues better than Snake in rankings. On top of this, Fox was already Super Human before being a Cyborg Ninja. Just to grasp how Good Jaeger is, lets look a little at Snake battles with the greatest Mercenary in the World.

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In Metal Gear 2, Snake defeated Gray Fox piloting the Metal Gear itself, then beat Fox in Hand to Hand. Even after the brutal mission Snake been through, he prevails! Frank Jaeger is no mere mercenary either, he was super human before all this!

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Null is Gray Foxe's old name. A Super Human in speed and skill. Snake battled this guy and defeated him when he was still a non Cyborg Ninja with super human attributes in Metal Gear 2. Whats really impressive is in the Shadow moses fight Snake had kept up in speed, out skilled the best, and top it off actually had the strength and moves to harm Grey Fox as the Cyborg Ninja. Just read below.

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As I said, the Cyborg Ninja is insane fast. The Cyborg Ninja simply moves much faster than mass amount of Mach 2 Bullets at 10 feet distance.

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Snake confronts the Cyborg Ninja, and fights him H2H. I am pretty sure Gray Fox held back his strength to make the fight fair for Snake, Gray Fox is 500 toner in strength lol, just as he wanted to fight Snake with no weapons. However what needs to be noted is the Cyborg Ninja Gray Fox even before becoming the machine was super human fast, durable, and skilled. Grey Fox was trying his best to win, yet Snake beats him.

Even unenhanced and fighting guys who have super solider serum enhanced physicals that should be equal to his regular physicals, Steve dominates.

This is a good showing of Steve skill vs Stats, but what are the skills of these guys?

Black Panther notes that Captain America can instinctively adapt to any fighting style an opponent brings to the table against him, and he can predict an opponent's movements by feeling changes in air currents. Pretty much makes Solid Snake's stealth useless :)

Few things here.

1) Black Panther was not into this fight either as it was stated afterword, both were not trying.

2) Feeling the air currents is neat for close combat, but not range stealth, which i will cover soon :)

To sum it up: Captain America's top tier fighting skill by itself will be a big problem. Steve's mastery over martial arts, his real life combat prowess honed through his time in the military, smooth fighting style will give him a good advantage here. And add in his ability to adapt in fights, he will be giving Solid Snake absolute hell here just through fighting skill alone.

I do not see any proof that says he masted any martial art. Being Adept in something is not mastery. Snake has mastered 32 different arts and is highly adept in CQC. Add to that his super human stats that are in no way that far off from Cap's own.

Lets cover some more Close Combat showings for Solid Snake.

Snake vs Vamp

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Snake vs Vamp is unique difference of IDW Comics to the Games. Simply because in this retelling he fights Snake rather than Raiden. Woods and Kojima both felt the fans would not invested cash into Raiden since Raiden was so frown upon in the game. I say good on them for noticing. Either way this is basically a Kojima approved version of how the fight went down with Snake fighting Vamp.

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Vamp is as much a bad@$$ in the IDW Comics as he is in the Game. He still has all the skill abilities he shows in MGS4. Like that insane Healing Factor.

Vamp is all shades of holy crap as he is in the Game. In the Game it's explain why he seems so fast.

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He still must be extremely fast, however not faster than bullets as we see. What makes it more impressive however is he can read your muscles at insane speeds and counter any move you make in turn. He also has a Nanonite Regen that makes him near immortal.

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Clearly seen when shot in the Head not once, but twice! Still comes back in MGS4 to challenge Raiden no less.

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In the Comics Raiden never makes it to Emma. Snake has to retrieve her and beats Vamp in a simple quick Throat Cut move. Showing off that speed and skill of Snake. Again this is impressive because this is still the same Vamp who would later on in a few years battle Cyborg Ninja Raiden!

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That is what Snake had beaten with no awesome Cyborg powers.

Sure he got his butt handed to him in a way at first, but that did not mattered as he was merely waiting for a opening against this Muscle Reading super human to combo him into a KO. Another great example is Solidus Snake.

Snake vs Solidus

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Solidus is an another Clone and one with as much skill and experience as Snake himself.

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Solidus has been starting and waging wars for years while Solid and Liquid were both training. On top of this he is wearing a Exo Suit that enhances his stats far beyond Snakes own.

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Snake skill pilots the Helicopter while keeping Solidus and Vamp from targeting Raiden with the Harrier. Notice early on how Solidus dodges the 203MM Grenade easy.

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Solidus suit and skill is enough swipe down Heavy fire from Metal Gear Ray! Just to show how fast and beastly he is.

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Solidus easily beats Raiden. Snake with the sword, a weapon we know he is not the best with, defeats Solidus who has his Cyborg Ninja Suit to amp his already Super Human stats. We know Snake was stripped of all weapon before this, so he must had use the sword.

Snake skill in Close Combat is nothing short of incredible. The people he fights are well documented bad@$$es with super human abilities and killer instincts. Yet Snake comes out on top. However Snake is not limited to Close Combat here.

To give you an idea why this feat is so impressive, tank turrets on average weigh 16-20 tons, yet this turret is sent flying on side by the sheer power Captain America's shield toss commands. Sure the shield did some of the work, but the momentum and power needed for the shield to go completely through that turret needed most of its power from Steve's super solider serum enhanced strength.

Yes, Cap is very strong, but only in the 1-2 ton range. In no way is the tank turret showing a 16 ton feat. its just simple logic that Steve throwing a shield is 10 times his own lifting strength. To suggest otherwise is to sell Cap as Spider Man's equal in strength.

Captain America can use his superior speed/reaction time to avoid Solid Snake's attacks.

While the feats are impressive, nothing in them suggest he is faster than Snake in anything other than a foot race.

Snake vs Revolver Ocelot

Ocelot is one of the greatest enemies in the Metal Gear series.

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Skip to 1:50-3:00. Even as a youngster his skill with a pistol is insane.Here he is more seasoned and even better skilled.

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Ocelot is a insane marksman. Ocelot tries to ambush him to no avail, and then cannot tag Snake who smartly harms Ocelot via steam pipe. This fight is interrupted by the Cyborg Ninja.

Snake dodges not only the super human trick shots of Ocelot, he also avoids the Mach 2 speed Cyber ninja attacks as I showed above. Now with that said there is a huge factor not accounted for so for. Snake is a master of stealth, has a Stealth Unit, Solition Radar, and range superiority.

Snake in this scenario will not engage in Close Combat, that is not his trademark field. he excels at it, but he mostly uses Stealth and Range to win a fight before resorting to Hand to Hand. Let me explain.

Snake vs Special Forces

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Genome Soldiers are Enhanced in Hearing and Seeing. Snake stealths a whole base of these guys easy.

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As Mei Ling says, these Genome Soldiers are Gene Enhanced with superior senses to the normal peak human soldier. Snake easy stealths them while gathering gear under their noses. Killing some in the process.

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Here Snake not only kills off a ton of Genome Soldiers with his Socom in the thick of battle, he also then easily dodges a mind control Meryle who unloads on him at point blank.

Also if we are still not convince on the stealth side of Snake's skill...

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Here he is in a small train car getting the best of a three man Spetsnaz Squad, sneaks out of the Train while the next team moves in, and blows it.

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Here he is surrounded with Raiden by Tengu soldiers with Swords, P90s, and stat enhancing Arsenal Gear Armor. He takes out hordes of Tengu with a naked Raiden, armed with only a sword, as his only back up. Takes out these Soldiers who have Stat Enhancing Arsenal Armor that allow them a degree of strength and speed enough to deflect bullets.

This is the stealth and range skill you have against Cap. Look at Snake out shooting the master gunmen Ocelot himself for further range proof. I have more proof to Snakes Range as well which will be brought up later.

Conclusion

Here is the thing, Snake will no doubt activate the Stealth Suit and use all the crazy terrain to gain cover while stealthing around. he has out stealth super human senses and he has near complete invisibility added to that. The Solition Radar also ensures Snake can keep a eye on Steve at all times while stealthing or hiding, waiting for the best moment to attack. When he does, not only Steve have to dodge the super marksmen aim of Snake, but he will be caught off guard every time. Snake is packing a Scom and M-4 Assault rifle. Crack shot with both.

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Skip to 1:10. Even bullet timer Vamp is head shot. Snake is just that good.

Another big thing to add to this is Snake has no morals and goes for kill shots, while Cap tends to take his guys alive. No matter what Comics show, trying to kill someone is easier than trying to subdue. Snake has that advantage as well. As for hand to hand combat, Snake's skill, strength, durability, and speed means Cap should have no distinct advantage in Close Combat. Since he is lacking defined skill, and relies on his superior stats with adaptive skill. Snake meanwhile has every advantage in stealth and range combat as well. With a 180 IQ and every training from every branch of the military and government, I say Snake has Cap beat in some areas of tactical expertise as well. Sure Cap led the avengers, but he rarely gives orders half the time other than "Avengers Assemble!" and hope for the best. Snake meanwhile is use to being a one man army.

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#17 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

) Cap here fights a guy who knows every martial art, yet Cap explains it does not matter against a stronger, faster, and better train fighter. Seems to suggest he does not know every martial art in the world.

This does not in any way suggest that Captain America does not know every martial art in the world. Do not even see how you can come to this conclusion to be frank when Steve says he is better trained than the guy who knows every martial art in the world. You also forgot to mention the part where Steve went on to defeat that fighter.

) Iron Fist who only mastered a couple martial arts recognizes Cap skill is very basic, not advance at all, however his stats make the difference.

Iron Fist has not mastered a "few" martial arts. He has mastered every martial art on the planet and has completed mastered all the mystical martial arts in the extremely long, ancient book of Iron Fist. You are twisting Iron Fist's use of the word basic to describe Captain America's fighting skill. Steve's fighting style has been noted to be "simple yet effective" on multiple occasions and that idiosyncratic value his fighting style incorporates doesn't in any way lessen his skill I am afraid. You really just misinterpreted the use of the word basic due to a lack of knowledge on Captain America's history.

This is solid proof Cap has not mastered any martial art on panel. He has knowldge of them and thanks to his stats can compete with those who are masters.

No, you actually haven't in any way come close to proving and your statement about states is just a misinterpretation I am afraid. Steve's stats is why he wins fights is why he beat up a group of super soldiers when he reverted back to being a sickly, 95 lb. man, beat the 25 tonner Armadillo, gave the 10+ tonner/completely bullet proof John Steele a very hard fight, has on panel mastered weapons in seconds, beat the 10 tonner Beast, has beaten a Namor clone, and curbstomped a room of full of superhumanly strong Asgardian trolls. To be frank, the two statements above that you made were just poor attempts at lowballing. Now I know you said that you try not to lowball anymore while debating, but that is what those two statements were. If that is going to be modus operandi here, then there is no point in even continuing this.

This is a good showing of Steve skill vs Stats, but what are the skills of these guys?

They were all extensively military trained, and come on now, beating up a group of 2 tonners when you a boney, 95 lb. guy is an insane example of skill no matter how you look at it.

I do not see any proof that says he masted any martial art. Being Adept in something is not mastery. Snake has mastered 32 different arts and is highly adept in CQC. Add to that his super human stats that are in no way that far off from Cap's own.

The first panel in my counter post is blatant proof. Merriam Webster Dictionary has the word adept as a synonym for the word master so you don't have to use word play to try down play Captain America's martial art mastery here. You actually haven't shown Solid Snake beating/stalemating a fighter on the level of a Daredevil or Iron Fist like Captain America. Thus, Steve is still superior to Solid Snake and has a physicals advantage.

Daredevil is really good fighter when he tries. It seems here he is holding back while trying to reason with Steve. Meanwhile Steve is trying his hardest to get DD into Custody.

Both were trying pretty hard to complete their objectives (Matt not trying to get caught, and Steve trying to capture.) I don't even see the point of this sentence if you actually read the fight.

Yes, Cap is very strong, but only in the 1-2 ton range. In no way is the tank turret showing a 16 ton feat. its just simple logic that Steve throwing a shield is 10 times his own lifting strength. To suggest otherwise is to sell Cap as Spider Man's equal in strength.

I never said that Captain America was a 16 tonner mate.

While the feats are impressive, nothing in them suggest he is faster than Snake in anything other than a foot race.

Indeed, Captain America's mid level feats suggest that he is faster than Solid Snake and we haven't even gotten to his extreme high end speed feats.

With a 180 IQ and every training from every branch of the military and government, I say Snake has Cap beat in some areas of tactical expertise as well. Sure Cap led the avengers, but he rarely gives orders half the time other than "Avengers Assemble!" and hope for the best.

Egregiously silly generalization about Captain America.....................................................................................

Another big thing to add to this is Snake has no morals and goes for kill shots, while Cap tends to take his guys alive.

Another generalization that you were corrected on by multiple users in last weeks "Battle of the Week" between Terry McGinnis and Miles Morales.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/batman-battle-of-the-month-voting-batman-beyond-vs-1510336/?page=5

Here is the thing, Snake will no doubt activate the Stealth Suit and use all the crazy terrain to gain cover while stealthing around. he has out stealth super human senses and he has near complete invisibility added to that. The Solition Radar also ensures Snake can keep a eye on Steve at all times while stealthing or hiding, waiting for the best moment to attack. When he does, not only Steve have to dodge the super marksmen aim of Snake, but he will be caught off guard every time. Snake is packing a Scom and M-4 Assault rifle. Crack shot with both.

Snake is not going to be able to activate the stealth suit and run away with such a short distance between him and Captain America. Steve's speed feats show that he can easily close the gap between him and Solid Snake and get into close combat where he is superior. Solid Snake is indeed a great marksmen, but as noted earlier, Steve literally sees bullets in slow motion, and most likely will not getting shot in hand to hand combat.

Conclusion:

To conclude my second counter argument, Steve has multiple advantages over Solid Snake thus far. He is a superiorly skilled hand to hand combatant as shown by his mastery over martial arts, facing of more skilled opponents, and his ability to adapt to any fighting style thrown out against him will be a crucial advantage. Your statements about his top tier level of skill can be attributed to misunderstanding and misinterpreting of scans, lowballing, and an overall lack of knowledge on Captain America (As you showed through several generalizations). Steve's strength and speed feats still outclass Solid Snake's at this point. To sum it up, he's holding unto a plethora of advantages and we haven't even gone over his superior durability, shield use/skill, and stamina (Which I will go over in my next counter.)

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#18 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: @cadencev2

Does Nickz and Slim's votes count for triple as much as the rest of us, given thier knowlegde of said characters :P

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#20 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@wolverine08: @cadencev2

Does Nickz and Slim's votes count for triple as much as the rest of us, given thier knowlegde of said characters :P

Votes that go for me count for quadruple as much as the rest of Viners.

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#21 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08:

This does not in any way suggest that Captain America does not know every martial art in the world. Do not even see how you can come to this conclusion to be frank when Steve says he is better trained than the guy who knows every martial art in the world. You also forgot to mention the part where Steve went on to defeat that fighter.

Here is the problem. You have no proof other than Caps words of knowing every MA in the world. Which is false BTW. He was under the ice for decades, how would he know the hundreds of different fighting forms that been created in the world since then? He couldn't.....

Also at least Konami released a official statement of how many Mastered Combat styles Snake has vs Captain America's clearly inaccurate boast.

Iron Fist has not mastered a "few" martial arts. He has mastered every martial art on the planet and has completed mastered all the mystical martial arts in the extremely long, ancient book of Iron Fist. You are twisting Iron Fist's use of the word basic to describe Captain America's fighting skill. Steve's fighting style has been noted to be "simple yet effective" on multiple occasions and that idiosyncratic value his fighting style incorporates doesn't in any way lessen his skill I am afraid. You really just misinterpreted the use of the word basic due to a lack of knowledge on Captain America's history.

Not really, Basic is the word basic. No matter how you use it in a sentence. Captain america is not super skilled as Shang Chi, iron Fist, or even Wolverine (when he wants to be good). Cap is "Basic" in his adept skill. There is no changing the definition of that word in that phrase by a master Martial artist.

No, you actually haven't in any way come close to proving and your statement about states is just a misinterpretation I am afraid. Steve's stats is why he wins fights is why he beat up a group of super soldiers when he reverted back to being a sickly, 95 lb. man, beat the 25 tonner Armadillo, gave the 10+ tonner/completely bullet proof John Steele a very hard fight, has on panel mastered weapons in seconds, beat the 10 tonner Beast, has beaten a Namor clone, and curbstomped a room of full of superhumanly strong Asgardian trolls. To be frank, the two statements above that you made were just poor attempts at lowballing. Now I know you said that you try not to lowball anymore while debating, but that is what those two statements were. If that is going to be modus operandi here, then there is no point in even continuing this.

Poor attempts at lowballing by bringing proof? Its so sad you have to resort to the phrase lowballing when I think i proven and countered your claim of a "Boast" from Cap about himself.

They were all extensively military trained, and come on now, beating up a group of 2 tonners when you a boney, 95 lb. guy is an insane example of skill no matter how you look at it.

How do we know he is 95 lbs? Is that stated somewhere. looking at his body and muscle mass in the art, he is easy a 120 pound Bruce lee machine >_> Also Basic military train is not that impressive. I should know.

The first panel in my counter post is blatant proof. Merriam Webster Dictionary has the word adept as a synonym for the word master so you don't have to use word play to try down play Captain America's martial art mastery here. You actually haven't shown Solid Snake beating/stalemating a fighter on the level of a Daredevil or Iron Fist like Captain America. Thus, Steve is still superior to Solid Snake and has a physicals advantage.

You have not really shown Cap is a master in anything specific and a self boast from way back is no proof at all. So the whole more skilled is flat false when Snake has been officially stated as Rambo, Bond, Wayne, and Lawrence combined. Then we see this proof in his battles against Grey Fox, Vamp, Cyber Ninja, Solidus Snake, and Metal gears.

Both were trying pretty hard to complete their objectives (Matt not trying to get caught, and Steve trying to capture.) I don't even see the point of this sentence if you actually read the fight.

I do, Cap failed to to anything in catching DD who was trying to explain himself and not fight back. I am not sure why this is a proof of Cap skills equal to DD.

I never said that Captain America was a 16 tonner mate.

Just making sure then. After all, if Punisher who was aiming a gun at Cap can catch his shield, I see no reason a more skilled and super human Snake could not disarm Cap.

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Indeed, Captain America's mid level feats suggest that he is faster than Solid Snake and we haven't even gotten to his extreme high end speed feats.

Neither have I. Except showing Snakes speed vs Solidus, Vamp, and the near Spider Man speed Cyber Ninja.

Here is the rail gun feat too.

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Skip to 1:20. Old Snake (70+ year old body, remember that!) is shot at by a Mach 4+ Rail Gun. He dodges the shot after it is fired!

Here is way more impressive feats of Snake reaction and dodging skill.

Snake vs Raven

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Top notch super human this guy is. He is also heavily Special Forces trained.

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Snake avoids Raven who is Aiming the .50 Cal Machine Gun on this tank. Add to this Snake is avoiding the worst of the Tank Shells blast Shock Waves that pulp humans into mush! Then snake dodges the fire with a Claymore in hand. Boom.

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Raven is blasting away with his Mini Gun and Snake is not only Dodging it, he lays a nasty trap of his own to win. This is the genius skill of Solid Snake. Another good showing to for his dodging and reaction time.

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Liquid is no freaking joke!

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Here Snake is flat out dodging the attacks of Liquid in a Hind Attack Gunboat, who just shot down two F-16 Fighter Jets during a Snowstorm! That is accuracy and insane skill. He is dodging all this and manages to Stinger Missile the Copter while Die Hard style roping off the building!

Snake vs Olga

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Olga. Dodging her gun fire and taking her out with a major handicap.

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Here Snake is using a single shot M9 tranq gun against one of the most decorated Mercenaries train by the best of Special Forces in Russia.

Snake vs Sniper Wolf

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Sniper Wolf, one of the best Snipers in the world.

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Snake first encounter against her was him being handicap in helping Meryl. Then being ambushed by Genome. Even though he would have easily beaten the Genome, Wolf was there with a target at Snakes head.

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Snake get his rope shot out, free falls 100s of feet into the snow. Then as nothing happens gets into a intense Sniper battle with the worlds best. He ends it when she targets Hal, giving Snake the opening he needed. Until Hal showed up Snake was shot for shot even with the worlds best and dodging her shots!

All this is speed reaction combine with raw skill.

Another generalization that you were corrected on by multiple users in last weeks "Battle of the Week" between Terry McGinnis and Miles Morales.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/batman-battle-of-the-month-voting-batman-beyond-vs-1510336/?page=5

Yes, I want people to understand that Cap tends to not kill Red Skull, Cross Bones, Batroc, Serpent Society, ect.... Cap never kills any of his foes, the most he ever killed was in WW2 and since then he has been a saint that never does what needed to end Terrorist who have committed mass genocide at times except in few rare moments that are vastly far in between.

True Story and there is no arguing those facts.

Snake is not going to be able to activate the stealth suit and run away with such a short distance between him and Captain America. Steve's speed feats show that he can easily close the gap between him and Solid Snake and get into close combat where he is superior. Solid Snake is indeed a great marksmen, but as noted earlier, Steve literally sees bullets in slow motion, and most likely will not getting shot in hand to hand combat.

So we will ignore Snakes skill, speed, and the fact his Suit turns on and off with a thought, thank you Nanomachines, becuase Cap can run 60mph?

Steve has been shot and more than once i might add by expert marksmen. He also sees bullets in slow motion, thats cute. Snake actually uses Handguns in Close Combat as well.

Snake gets dropped on by Akiba. Akiba is a master Mercenary and Tech expert. Dont believe me, check here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QofhJhJGBjw . Snake leads him along knowing full well he and his team are who Snake is looking for, but Snake ****s with him anyway. Then Snake shows some of that CQC skill against ex special forces of Big mamma.

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Lets look at Snake vs Liquid Hand to Hand in detail.

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First Snake must face Liquid in the Metal gear rex with the help of Grey Fox. The same ninja who snake beaten in Hand to Hand twice earlier. Rex is a beast of a machine. Snake with the help of Grey Fox brings it down.

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After Rex goes down Snake blacks out from the explosion and wakes up. Here he bests Liquid in H2H. What makes this impressive the most is Snake has been wounded, tortured, and fighting a gauntlet of Super Humans and still has the stamina, skill, and strength to beat Liquid in hand to hand. Snake is just so dang masterful in his Martial arts and CQC. In fact lets define CQC shall we?

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CQC is the most advance form of Close Combat in the world. it borrows from the most tactical moves of other Martial Arts, and adds in the use of guns and knives with it. This Martial Art was first developed by the Boss with Big boss was passed down to only the most elite few in the world. People like Liquid Snake, Ocelot, Grey Fox, and Solid Snake. It is based on countering attacks, maximizing effectiveness of guns in combat, with Submission holds added into it. Snake is the master beating out Ocelot, Grey Fox, and Liquid in the style.

Wow, I have a very detail, and stated proof of Snakes skill in close combat. Unlike Cap who simply made a vague boast of how he knows everything.

To conclude my second counter argument, Steve has multiple advantages over Solid Snake thus far. He is a superiorly skilled hand to hand combatant as shown by his mastery over martial arts, facing of more skilled opponents, and his ability to adapt to any fighting style thrown out against him will be a crucial advantage. Your statements about his top tier level of skill can be attributed to misunderstanding and misinterpreting of scans, lowballing, and an overall lack of knowledge on Captain America (As you showed through several generalizations). Steve's strength and speed feats still outclass Solid Snake's at this point. To sum it up, he's holding unto a plethora of advantages and we haven't even gone over his superior durability, shield use/skill, and stamina (Which I will go over in my next counter.)

To conclude Snake has many advantages in Range, and Stealth abilities to bid his time while studying Cap. He has Ambushed options and the ability to surprise attack. Added to this Snake is far from helpless in Close Combat. As I also again stated, Cap has clear morals and holds back in character. Snake meanwhile will go for the kill. Steve's strength may outclass Snake by a ton, but that is negated when Snake CQC is designed to use Steve's attacks against him as well the use of guns in Close Combat for maximum efficiency. Steve in no way outclass Snake's own reaction and combat speed. Only foot speed, and unless Cap is running away, I see no reason why that matters.

Also all this talk of lowballing is easily countered as by me saying I believe you making Cap more than he ever was meant to be. His feats and skill are never finely defined and no official statements on Steve skills in Martial Arts is present. I work with what i know of Cap which is alot actually thanks to being a slight fan of his. Cap is indeed very skilled, but his best against guys like DD, Black Panther, Iron Fist, or Wolverine is due to his Super Human stats added to that skill. Not raw skill alone. in know way is he a Shang Chi.

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#24 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Here is the problem. You have no proof other than Caps words of knowing every MA in the world. Which is false BTW. He was under the ice for decades, how would he know the hundreds of different fighting forms that been created in the world since then? He couldn't.....

Hey, how does Batman know 127 martial arts? He's a couple of centuries too young to have done that. Wait, how does Solid Snake know 32 forms of martial arts when most people spend their whole lifetimes mastering one martial art and mastering somewhere around 5 martial arts in one lifetime would be an insane accomplishment? Oh, looks like you are forgetting that comic books writers do not account for logic like that. The super solider serum has enhanced Steve's brain to the point where he and other's like Beast have noted that he learns quicker. It's perfectly reasonable for him to have mastered every martial form known to man like he noted. It is not something every hard to grasp really.

Not really, Basic is the word basic. No matter how you use it in a sentence. Captain america is not super skilled as Shang Chi, iron Fist, or even Wolverine (when he wants to be good). Cap is "Basic" in his adept skill. There is no changing the definition of that word in that phrase by a master Martial artist.

Your use of Shang Chi as an extremely skilled fighter shows your lack of knowledge on these things. Shang Chi is a top tier fighter in name only. His best "feat" was Black Panther out of the blue telling Luke Cage that he superior to his friend Iron Fist. His fighting style has been described on a plethora of times to be "simple yet effective". You have simply taken that statement and tried to twist in a way of meaning that Steve's skill itself is basic. Sorry, that won't work here. Furthermore, Solid Snake isn't even in the same league as people like an Iron Fist, Wolverine, or Daredevil. Their feats, training, and extensive history of skill beat out Solid Snake's by a noticeable margin and Steve has given all those men solid fights. That within itself is better than anything Solid Snake has done. Konami can scream that Solid Snake is Batman, John Rambo, Bond, etc. until there face is blue and no one will take that seriously. You know why, because Solid Snake's feats and training are inferior to Batman's. There is a reason no one on these boards takes IDW TMNT artist's Mateus Santolouco's statement that Shredder and Splinter are both dead end equals to Batman skill wise. It is because they don't have the feats to back this. This is the same with Konami and their boast about Solid Snake. I find it funny that you call Captain America's on panel statement of being adept in every form of combat known to man a "boast" yet use a boast from Konami that Solid Snake is Batman, John Rambo, etc. to back up Solid Snake's skill. Very ironic if I say so myself.

Poor attempts at lowballing by bringing proof? Its so sad you have to resort to the phrase lowballing when I think i proven and countered your claim of a "Boast" from Cap about himself.

I am just calling it like I am seeing it. You are lowballing and doing a very poor job at it at that. There is no "proof" in your counter. Just misinterpreting and twisting of statements about how Captain America's fighting style works to fit the view you had on Captain America coming into this debate that was incorrect.

How do we know he is 95 lbs? Is that stated somewhere. looking at his body and muscle mass in the art, he is easy a 120 pound Bruce lee machine >_> Also Basic military train is not that impressive. I should know

Steve has been noted multiple times to be between 90-95 lbs. while in his natural form. The soldiers were already full fledged, extensively trained soldiers when they got the super solider serum.

do, Cap failed to to anything in catching DD who was trying to explain himself and not fight back. I am not sure why this is a proof of Cap skills equal to DD.

You failed to mention Steve stealing Daredevil's billy club, and tripped him towards the end of the fight and pretty much matched him blow for blow. The fight was a clear stalemate friend no matter how you try to play it.

Just making sure then. After all, if Punisher who was aiming a gun at Cap can catch his shield, I see no reason a more skilled and super human Snake could not disarm Cap.

Superhumans like Spider-Man and Wolverine who's physicals outdo Solid Snake's have been unable to react to Steve's shield throws. Showing one low showing doesn't prove anything on your part sadly.

Here is way more impressive feats of Snake reaction and dodging skill.

Meh, nothing you have shown outdoes Captain America seeing faster than bullets, running 60 MPH, reacting easily to the speed of sound, going from being completely encircled by a hoard of men to escaping from the engagement to being behind a tree without them noticing him do so, literally outracing bullets from when they have been fired in tight rooms, dodging lasers in zero gravity, dodging explosions, etc. Steve's raw speed and reaction are still superior to Solid Snake's thus far.

CQC is the most advance form of Close Combat in the world. it borrows from the most tactical moves of other Martial Arts, and adds in the use of guns and knives with it. This Martial Art was first developed by the Boss with Big boss was passed down to only the most elite few in the world. People like Liquid Snake, Ocelot, Grey Fox, and Solid Snake. It is based on countering attacks, maximizing effectiveness of guns in combat, with Submission holds added into it. Snake is the master beating out Ocelot, Grey Fox, and Liquid in the style.

Wow, I have a very detail, and stated proof of Snakes skill in close combat. Unlike Cap who simply made a vague boast of how he knows everything.

Captain America has been noted in comics and handbooks to utilize boxing, gymnastics, judo, and other forms of martial arts in his fighting style. Not so "vague".

Yes, I want people to understand that Cap tends to not kill Red Skull, Cross Bones, Batroc, Serpent Society, ect.... Cap never kills any of his foes, the most he ever killed was in WW2 and since then he has been a saint that never does what needed to end Terrorist who have committed mass genocide at times except in few rare moments that are vastly far in between.

Steve killed those soldiers with a fire hydrant while he was unenhanced while they were down (So it was not necessary.). He went on to in a few panels later beat some other super solider serum enhanced men to death with his bare hands. He killed a few criminals by throwing his shield at them in a way that forced them to jump to their death even when Sharon Carter noted that it was not necessary. He was going to kill Iron Man at the end of Civil War before he got restrained. Steve isn't a "saint" and has no reason to hold back against some guy he doesn't know like Snake Eyes who is trying to kill him. Stop this false information of Steve's morals that you like to spread.

Durability:

I mentioned in my last counter that I would expand on Steve's superior durability over Solid Snake. First, I shall show Steve's baseline durability without his new Marvel Now suit.

Here, Steve jumps out of an airplane without a parachute and lands on the superhumanly durable John Steele hard enough to cause a crater in the ground. He receives no injury.

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Recently in AvX, Steve tanked an explosion Gambit was sure would put him down for the count with nothing but superficial damage and proceeds to beat him up.

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Captain America gets hit by a car moving at 40 MPH per hour and gets up fine, and falls from the air at over 100 MPH per hour unto The Thing with no injury.

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Takes a beating from a bloodlusted Iron Man. This was a few decades ago with a weaker armor.

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With Steve's new Marvel Now armor, he's been able to like tank blasts from Aleph (Who has pushed back the powerhouse Hyperion with his blasts.)

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Here, Steve takes multiple hits from a Zolandia Captain. These guys are clones made by Arnim Zola that are noted to be physically stronger than Steve. Captain America had bee fighting for 12 YEARS STRAIGHT (Showing of his superior stamina), and has his physical body and armor weakened, yet he was still taking hits from this physically superior foe.

(Read from right to left.)

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Captain America even has a slight healing factor.

Shown here, after the 10+ tonner John Steele breaks Cap's leg, he heals pretty well in a matter of moments, and even notes that "I heal fast".

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Burns from alien tech and enough sedatives to kill a horse aren't things that Steve just can heal through.

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Really, Steve is just better durability wise than Solid Snake.

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#25 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Argh, my computer failed on me. I need to edit and add some more to my post before you should respond to it.

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#26 Posted by nick_hero22 (8686 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine08

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#27 Posted by jashro44 (51718 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine08

The debates not even over yet...

Online
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#28 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08:

Hey, how does Batman know 127 martial arts? He's a couple of centuries too young to have done that. Wait, how does Solid Snake know 32 forms of martial arts when most people spend their whole lifetimes mastering one martial art and mastering somewhere around 5 martial arts in one lifetime would be an insane accomplishment? Oh, looks like you are forgetting that comic books writers do not account for logic like that. The super solider serum has enhanced Steve's brain to the point where he and other's like Beast have noted that he learns quicker. It's perfectly reasonable for him to have mastered every martial form known to man like he noted. It is not something every hard to grasp really.

There is over 1000 versions of Martial arts. Batman knows 127.... knows... not mastered..... knows. That is no unrealistic actually. also sorry to beat a dead horse, Batman is stated with a number of known Martial arts as proof. Cap has any facts other than a self boast of knowing them all?

You really have not proved anything legit other than "Cap said he knows everything!" scan.

Your use of Shang Chi as an extremely skilled fighter shows your lack of knowledge on these things. Shang Chi is a top tier fighter in name only. His best "feat" was Black Panther out of the blue telling Luke Cage that he superior to his friend Iron Fist. His fighting style has been described on a plethora of times to be "simple yet effective". You have simply taken that statement and tried to twist in a way of meaning that Steve's skill itself is basic. Sorry, that won't work here. Furthermore, Solid Snake isn't even in the same league as people like an Iron Fist, Wolverine, or Daredevil. Their feats, training, and extensive history of skill beat out Solid Snake's by a noticeable margin and Steve has given all those men solid fights. That within itself is better than anything Solid Snake has done. Konami can scream that Solid Snake is Batman, John Rambo, Bond, etc. until there face is blue and no one will take that seriously. You know why, because Solid Snake's feats and training are inferior to Batman's. There is a reason no one on these boards takes IDW TMNT artist's Mateus Santolouco's statement that Shredder and Splinter are both dead end equals to Batman skill wise. It is because they don't have the feats to back this. This is the same with Konami and their boast about Solid Snake. I find it funny that you call Captain America's on panel statement of being adept in every form of combat known to man a "boast" yet use a boast from Konami that Solid Snake is Batman, John Rambo, etc. to back up Solid Snake's skill. Very ironic if I say so myself.

This is just a sad attempt to reverse logic. Konami has stated something official. Cap has nothing official stated or shown. In the comics he does not show any specific Martial art at all. He often Brawls half the time. At least Snake is always shown in a proper martial art manner.

The last part makes me sigh, you are seriously trying to argue against a official statement that was written down by Konami and yet expect to get anywhere with a single scan of Cap Boasting? Really?

Poor attempts at lowballing by bringing proof? Its so sad you have to resort to the phrase lowballing when I think i proven and countered your claim of a "Boast" from Cap about himself.

I am just calling it like I am seeing it. You are lowballing and doing a very poor job at it at that. There is no "proof" in your counter. Just misinterpreting and twisting of statements about how Captain America's fighting style works to fit the view you had on Captain America coming into this debate that was incorrect.

Steve has been noted multiple times to be between 90-95 lbs. while in his natural form. The soldiers were already full fledged, extensively trained soldiers when they got the super solider serum.

Fair enough. That art makes him look over 120.

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You failed to mention Steve stealing Daredevil's billy club, and tripped him towards the end of the fight and pretty much matched him blow for blow. The fight was a clear stalemate friend no matter how you try to play it.

Does it matter? In the end Steve was trying to win a fight while DD was trying to avoid fighting. Hurting Someone is easier than trying not to get hurt in a fight. How different would the fight been if DD said "**** it!" and beat Caps butt down with his superior skill?

Superhumans like Spider-Man and Wolverine who's physicals outdo Solid Snake's have been unable to react to Steve's shield throws. Showing one low showing doesn't prove anything on your part sadly.

Low showing? It proof that it happens. I think its funny how every showing of another skilled peak human against a character you debate for is a "Low Showing" all of a sudden. Punisher is a bad Mofo in case you were unaware. >_>

Meh, nothing you have shown outdoes Captain America seeing faster than bullets, running 60 MPH, reacting easily to the speed of sound, going from being completely encircled by a hoard of men to escaping from the engagement to being behind a tree without them noticing him do so, literally outracing bullets from when they have been fired in tight rooms, dodging lasers in zero gravity, dodging explosions, etc. Steve's raw speed and reaction are still superior to Solid Snake's thus far.

This is funny as Speed of Sound < Mach 4 Rail Gun. Nothing from Cap other than Ground Speed is superior. Stop trying to play it up otherwise. Your not going to win votes trying to overhype Cap, and down play Snake when they are near equal in everything but Skill (Snake) and Strength (Cap).

Captain America has been noted in comics and handbooks to utilize boxing, gymnastics, judo, and other forms of martial arts in his fighting style. Not so "vague".

Not Vague at all. I am glad he is mention in two forms of fighting and gymnastics. Snake has mastered 32 Oriental MA styles, as well the top of Special Forces Training, top of the CIA training, and CQC.

Steve killed those soldiers with a fire hydrant while he was unenhanced while they were down (So it was not necessary.). He went on to in a few panels later beat some other super solider serum enhanced men to death with his bare hands. He killed a few criminals by throwing his shield at them in a way that forced them to jump to their death even when Sharon Carter noted that it was not necessary. He was going to kill Iron Man at the end of Civil War before he got restrained. Steve isn't a "saint" and has no reason to hold back against some guy he doesn't know like Snake Eyes who is trying to kill him. Stop this false information of Steve's morals that you like to spread.

So why does Cap not kill the guys who matter? How is it in character to kill (Which he never does in his mindsets, it is proven by the thousands of times he fought villains of any kind) Snake when he wont Red Skull or Mr. Hyde? Why not kill Cyclopes who was in Cap's eyes leading earth to its doom at the hands of Phoenix? What would Snake do? Bullet in the head. that is what he would have done.

You can try to play Cap will kill Snake card, and he very well might try when Snake already wounded him to the point of no return, but Cap has only a HANDFULL of cases where he killed foes where Snake goes straight for the kill of his targets.

Same reason why we debate Ultimate Captain America is more RUTHLESS than 616 Captain America. Its just facts.

I mentioned in my last counter that I would expand on Steve's superior durability over Solid Snake. First, I shall show Steve's baseline durability without his new Marvel Now suit.

Steve is nor more durable than Snake has been through IMO. Steve has regularly been harmed by bullets, and peak human foes.

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Snake with his M-4 and Socom can do Cap in without trying to pummel him. Hell snake always has a Tranq Gun. Though Cap may resist sedatives, they have also worked on him in comics as well if enough are applied. At the least it can slow him down.

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Takes a beating from a bloodlusted Iron Man.

You seriously going to suggest 100+ toner Iron Man cannot put Cap Down with one punch? She Hulk has harmed Cap greatly with a Humvee slammed on him. Dislocated his shoulder and Steve had to go to the hospitable from one blocked Humvee Smash.

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Same Iron Man one shot this Savage She Hulk in one punch. Seriously?

With Steve's new Marvel Now armor, he's been able to like tank blasts from Aleph (Who has pushed back the powerhouse Hyperion with his blasts.)

Tanking blast is all good, but it still has Gaps in it for Snake to aim for and exploit.

  • Point is Snake has range advantage. He is packing a M-9 tranq Gun, .45 Socom Pistol, and M-4 Assault Rifle.
  • Snake has a advantage in being the best stealth operative in the world, Solition Radar to track cap without having to physically seeing him, and with the invisible Stealth Unit added on.
  • Snake is IMO more skilled. He has stated Black belts in 32 forms, top of the class in all America's Special Forces training, top agent of the CIA, and the last remaining master of the greatest combat form CQC.
  • Snake clone genes of the perfect super human soldier Big Boss is equal to Caps stats in everything but strength, which he is not to far off in anyway.
  • Snake can dodge or disarm Caps shield with little problem.
  • Cap has morals whether you think so or not. Snake does not, he targets and kill his foes when he can.
  • Cap has well establish feats, so does Solid Snake with over 5 games, 2 comic series, and tons of official statements. In no way should Cap win because he is Mainstream and fought Mainstream characters.

Snake can very well win this with his stealthing skill and range alone. Should he be force into CC, then he can hang in there to with his skill, stats, and weapon handling thanks to CQC. After your rebuttal, I am ready for votes.

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#29 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@nick_hero22 said:

Wolverine08

The debates not even over yet...

I guess I know who nick favors >_>

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2: Argh, my computer failed on me. I need to edit and add some more to my post before you should respond to it.

Already did :S

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#30 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2: Argh, my computer failed on me. I need to edit and add some more to my post before you should respond to it.

Already did :S

Well, you didn't respond to my complete post. I'd recommend you'd do that.

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#31 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2: Argh, my computer failed on me. I need to edit and add some more to my post before you should respond to it.

Already did :S

Well, you didn't respond to my complete post. I'd recommend you'd do that.

Done editing?

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#32 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: I looked it over, I think I got it covered the first time. You must have finishing Editing before i started to work on my.

After your rebuttal, I am ready for votes. 4 Post in and I think we are hitting the same wall now. GG.

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#33 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: I looked it over, I think I got it covered the first time. You must have finishing Editing before i started to work on my.

After your rebuttal, I am ready for votes. 4 Post in and I think we are hitting the same wall now. GG.

I'm not done editing. Be a little patient.

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#34 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2: Argh, my computer failed on me. I need to edit and add some more to my post before you should respond to it.

Already did :S

Well, you didn't respond to my complete post. I'd recommend you'd do that.

Done editing?

I am done editing now. I'll shall address your final points, and give a detailed final conclusion to end this debate.

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#35 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

There is over 1000 versions of Martial arts. Batman knows 127.... knows... not mastered..... knows. That is no unrealistic actually. also sorry to beat a dead horse, Batman is stated with a number of known Martial arts as proof.

Batman has been officially stated to have mastered 127 martial arts. Stop with the word play you have used throughout this fight.

Does it matter? In the end Steve was trying to win a fight while DD was trying to avoid fighting. Hurting Someone is easier than trying not to get hurt in a fight. How different would the fight been if DD said "**** it!" and beat Caps butt down with his superior skill?

Daredevil’s fighting style is naturally evasive…… this has been noted multiple times in his comics. He combines Ninjutsu and other forms of martial arts to create a versatile fighting style. Him evading does not mean he wasn’t trying.

So why does Cap not kill the guys who matter? How is it in character to kill (Which he never does in his mindsets, it is proven by the thousands of times he fought villains of any kind) Snake when he wont Red Skull or Mr. Hyde? Why not kill Cyclopes who was in Cap's eyes leading earth to its doom at the hands of Phoenix? What would Snake do? Bullet in the head. that is what he would have done.

You can try to play Cap will kill Snake card, and he very well might try when Snake already wounded him to the point of no return, but Cap has only a HANDFULL of cases where he killed foes where Snake goes straight for the kill of his targets.

Same reason why we debate Ultimate Captain America is more RUTHLESS than 616 Captain America. Its just facts.

Plot. Plain and simple. He can’t go around killing every single villain he has in the way you would like him to if Marvel wants to keep telling stories with him. Same reason we haven’t had Wolverine kill Sabretooth in their encounters despite Wolverine being a well documented killer. He’s killed many men before, and he has no reason to not try kill a guy he has no connection to in a fight for his life. Captain America will kill Solid Snake if push comes to shove.

Steve is nor more durable than Snake has been through IMO. Steve has regularly been harmed by bullets, and peak human foes.

You just LOVE to use out of context scans and low showings don’t you? Steve had been fighting had just finished a brutal battle with Iron Man and others during Civil War and was wearing a power damper. It was noted that he was probably using all his will and strength just to climb up stairs.He was still fast enough to knock someone out of the way of a bullet. Thank you for giving Steve a good speed feat :) I really appreciate it.

You seriously going to suggest 100+ toner Iron Man cannot put Cap Down with one punch?

Did I suggest otherwise? I just noted Steve's durability in taking hits from someone like Iron Man. (He's tanked hits from people of similar power before.)

He often Brawls half the time.

Nice generalization that Captain America blows away with his skill showings.

Concluding Statement:

To conclude this great and enjoyable debate we have had, Captain America has several advantages that will lead him to victory. First off, he is a superiorly skilled fighter compared to solid Snake. Solid Snake is indeed an incredible fight, but Steve is just better. He has shown to know more martial arts, has shown a vastly superior use of pressure points, and has taken on and beaten/stalemated fighters with better feats and more extensive histories filled with skill than Solid Snake. Steve isn't more skilled because the opponents he has faced are more "mainstream". He is better because the competition he has faced is better than Snake's based on feats and history. You're statements and counters were just misinterpretations and twistings of things thathave been clearly expounded on, and did not prove that Steve is less skilled than Solid Snake in any way. Solid Snake's range advantage isn't that great here since Cap can sense changes in air currents and is too fast to let Snake get into stealth. The guy can run at 60 MPH and has a 3.82 40 yard dash. He is way too fast to not close distance in the beginning of the fight and engage Solid Snake in hand to combat (A place where he is superior to Snake) unless he just stands there sucking his thumb at the end of the battle. Steve also hold an advantage in regards to physicals. His strength feats like throwing 750 lb. women, benching 1,100 lb. military pressing motorcycles, etc. beat out Snake's. His speed/reaction time feats like seeing bullets in slow motion, reacting to the speed of sound, outrunning bullets at close range after they have been fired, running a 3.82 40 yard dash, etc. are superior to Snake's. Solid Snake will not "easily" disarm Steve of his shield. Most people who have accomplished that feat were superiorly skilled to Snake. Captain America's morals will not be a huge disadvantage like you play them out to be. He has killed enemies in combat before, and he will do it again against Snake to save his life. Steve's final advantage is his durability is his final advantage. His base durability is enough to jump out planes and create massive craters without injury, tank high end explosions with superficial damage at most. His healing factor is also pretty decent. Add in his new superiorly durable Marvel Now armor, and Steve is running away with a pretty good advantage in durability here.

Captain America ultimately comes out of here with a 7-8/10 majority over Solid Snake after a good fight.

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#37 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (21616 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine08: 1

CadenceV2: 0

What are we going to for the win @cadencev2?

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#40 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: I guess to 10. I never really keep track. lol.

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#42 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by jashro44 (51718 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Im curious if you know where I can find the scan that said he mastered it.

http://www.comicvine.com/batman/4005-1699/forums/how-many-martial-arts-does-batman-know-688217/

As seen its up to debate in itself.

Calling Voters.

I can dig up a few bios if you want all though they vary. One bio does say he knows 127 different styles, there is the JLA ultimate guide which states he has mastered every fighting discipline there it, and batman has also stated on panel that he has "mastered every violent art there is". All though Bruce is at least a master of the 127 different styles he knows. Its been stated that Bruce is the sum of all his masters and more in the batman/wildcat profile.

Batman can master any where from 127 different styles to possibly even every martial arts there is.

Online
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#44 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks Forgot you. Would love to here your opinion.

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#45 Posted by slimj87d (15629 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine08

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#46 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

Wolverine08

Thanks for the vote, and is there anything you feel I need to work on?

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#47 Posted by laflux (24714 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08: Im curious if you know where I can find the scan that said he mastered it.

http://www.comicvine.com/batman/4005-1699/forums/how-many-martial-arts-does-batman-know-688217/

As seen its up to debate in itself.

Calling Voters.

I can dig up a few bios if you want all though they vary. One bio does say he knows 127 different styles, there is the JLA ultimate guide which states he has mastered every fighting discipline there it, and batman has also stated on panel that he has "mastered every violent art there is". All though Bruce is at least a master of the 127 different styles he knows. Its been stated that Bruce is the sum of all his masters and more in the batman/wildcat profile.

Batman can master any where from 127 different styles to possibly even every martial arts there is.

There is also a panel where he gives Cassie Cain a CD with 127 martial arts that she had to learn, like he did, when she lost her move-reading abilities, but I think you are aware of that one :P

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#48 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by XLR87T3 (9432 posts) - - Show Bio

I WILL get back to this thread, because CadenceV2 was a formidable opponent for our own debate, and I do have respect for him. :)

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#50 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: @cadencev2: Great debate! One of the best I've seen in a while. This is really hard to pick the winner here.

Wolverine08 started off as the clear winner IMO. His opener was clear, concise, and very well though out. I think someone who had no knowledge whatsoever of Cap could have read that first statement and got a great feel for Cap. He also had me convinced that he was going to win this CAV.

CadenceV2 started off on the losing side IMO, but slowly brought his way back to make this a great thread by slowly adding more feats and examples of Snakes skill as the post count added up. He showed Snake's ability to take on and beat a wide versatility of opponents. As the round went on, the scales started to tip back towards cadence winning this. Wolverine08 was still doing an excellent job throughout the entire debate (and I loved that you used Merriam Webster Dictionary as a source in this battle, lol. Awesome!), but I think cadence was hitting his points a little harder after the openers.

Let me think about this for a minute, because I'm still undecided. Anyways, awesome CAV. I really enjoyed reading it.