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#1 Edited by the_red_viper (12534 posts) - - Show Bio
Roland Deschain
Roland Deschain

VS

Green Arrow (Pre-52)
Green Arrow (Pre-52)

Setting:

The battle takes place in Whiterun:

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Roland starts at Jorrvaskr (18) and Green Arrow starts at Carlotta Valentia's House (23).

Gear:

Roland's gear:

  • Revolvers+ammo
  • Oy

Green Arrow's gear:

  • Bow
  • Arrows
  • Trick arrows: explosive, flashbang, bola, net, smokescreen
  • Sword

Each character has basic knowledge of his foe (Roland knows that Ollie is an archer that tends to use trick arrows, Ollie knows that Roland is a really fast gunslinger). Both Ollie and Roland have basic knowledge of the city. Other than that, there's no prep.

May the best man win! @cadencev2

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#2 Posted by the_red_viper (12534 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio

Just because I haven't dome it in quite a while..

This should be good™

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#4 Posted by Dratini1331 (7916 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Just because I haven't dome it in quite a while..

This should be good™

you trade marked it? Now we have to pay royalties when we use it :O

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#5 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

So do you wanna start? @cadencev2

I have school in a half and hour, you cant start. be back in 4 hours time.

@dondave said:

Just because I haven't dome it in quite a while..

This should be good

TM lol.

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#6 Edited by the_red_viper (12534 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: By the way, do we assume that each man doesn't know where the other starts? Up to you. Anywho, here is my opening post:

My strategy:

Ollie would start by going to the best ventage point in Whiterun. He would go in this route to avoid being "out in the open" as much as he can:

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He would have a smokescreen arrow nocked and ready to fire if he needs to create a distraction in order to get away quickly or, alternatively, give himself an opportunity to draw his sword, close in and go for melee. The smoke is dense enough to blind Darkseid:

Ollie's mask would protect his eyes, if he needs to go into the smokescreen.
Ollie's mask would protect his eyes, if he needs to go into the smokescreen.

If, on the way to Dragonsreach, Ollie catches Roland off guard (from behind or something) he can draw another arrow with blinding speed and fire. Here's a perfect example for that (also a great example of his accuracy):

The first arrow went only a few centimeters before Ollie had another arrow on the go.
The first arrow went only a few centimeters before Ollie had another arrow on the go.

When Ollie reaches his ventage point, he would use his keen eyesight and look for Roland. The moment he catches a glimpse of him he can easily put an arrow through him.

Here we have a few scans of Ollie dodging gunfire, which are very important in a fight against a gunslinger:

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Notice that in the first one, the man firing at Ollie is Red Hood, who is an expert marksman. He also mentions an "arrow-through-the-barrel" trick. Same as Ollie did in the previous scan I showed you. If Ollie manages to put an arrow through the barrel of Roland's guns, it would make the guns more dangerous to Roland than they are to Ollie, like here:
This also demonstrates Ollie's uncanny accuracy when throwing arrows instead of shooting them.
This also demonstrates Ollie's uncanny accuracy when throwing arrows instead of shooting them.

Now, here are a few examples of Ollie's skill with a sword, in case it's gonna end up the old fashioned way:

1. Against Red Hood:

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2. Against Deathstroke:

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3. Sparring with Natas (Deathstroke's mentor, one of the deadliest SOBs on the planet):

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Ollie would count on his stealth skills to get to his vantage point without being detected. A few examples of Ollie's stealth skills:

1. Some assassins sent after Ollie by Natas can't find him. He triggers a trap on one of them while lurking in a tree, then, when the others go after him, he disappears and springs the trap on them as well:

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I have some good examples in mind taken from Green Arrow: Year One, but I can't find them, and I lent my cousin my own copy, so might be a little while until I can get you those scans.

Now, when Ollie's up there in his ventage point, he needs to detect Roland and snipe him. Here are a few examples of Ollie's accuracy at long range:

1. Hitting a target from extremely long range (I believe it was 400 yards):

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2. Not only did he manage to get the ring arrow to Green Lantern, he also managed to put it between his fingersso the arrow doesn't hurt him. Also, he had to deal with the swaying of the boat while doing so:

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3. Hits someone's leg with a bola arrow through a wall:

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Also, if Roland manages to avoid Ollie's fire, whether Ollie is in his ventage point or on his way there, Ollie can destroy it with his explosive arrows, which would possibly even kill/incapitate Roland. Here's an example of the explosion's radius:

This is Connor Hawke, but he was using Ollie's old arrows in this arc.
This is Connor Hawke, but he was using Ollie's old arrows in this arc.

Also, if Ollie gets the chance, he can trap Roland in a net arrow, or disarm him with the bola arrow:

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left scan is net, right scan is bola.

Also, Ollie can utilize his trick arrows to create traps. He can hide, then fire one of his trick arrows at a wall. Roland would go and look, and that would allow Ollie to either pick him off while he's distracted, or get to his vantage point without having to worry about being seen.

So, in a nutshell:

  • As soon as the fight starts, Green Arrow would make his way to the best ventage point in Whiterun. From there, he can pick off Roland as soon as he sees him.
  • He would use the best route for the purpose of not being seen. In addition to his stealth skills, he would be very hard to detect.
  • He would have a smokescreen arrow ready if he needs to create a distraction and get away, or alternatively go in for melee.
  • If Ollie and Roland end up in melee, Ollie has excellent skill with his sword and can take on Roland.
  • Ollie can use explosives to take out any cover Roland may use.
  • Ollie can trap/disarm roland with his trick arrows.
  • Ollie can use his trick arrows to lure and distract Roland.

So, that's my opening post. Your turn @cadencev2

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#7 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: I am stealing some of your scans. I am not asking simply notifying. (lol) but seriously I am taking some

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#8 Posted by the_red_viper (12534 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by Wyldsong (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be a darn good match up. Good luck to both of you=)

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#10 Posted by the_red_viper (12534 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by the_red_viper (12534 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

Green Arrow vs Roland (and Oy!). Awesome.

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#14 Posted by the_red_viper (12534 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: I still don't know what the F is an "Oy" but I take it it's some kind of animal?

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#15 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Oy is his name. He's a billy bumbler from the Dark Tower universe. He's basically a highly intelligent mix of a dog/raccoon/wolverine/badger kind of animal that can speak and understand some words. He was a really cool part of the Dark Tower series.

No Caption Provided

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#16 Posted by the_red_viper (12534 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Looks like the potential rabid son of Garfield and some random wolf.

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#17 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by the_red_viper (12534 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 Just making sure you didn't forget about this :)

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#19 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: thanks, I did.

I will address some of your points, however I see this battle being easily in Roland's favor as to who gets the jump on who first.

First I will open this up with Oy!

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Oy me look cute, but so do Honey Badgers!

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Oy is like the Honey Badger, but smarter and more Dangerous.

Oy is also a superb tracking animal! Oy once tracked Jake Chambers through a post Apocalyptic city filled with baddies. Oy also understands things on a Intelligent level. He is very smart and can speak in a limited way.

Point is Oy will track GA out by scent alone and Roland with his own skills will be ready for the first sign of GA or when Oy signal his origins.

Now you mention all the trick arrows and all the superior markmanship of Ollie.

Heres the problem.... Ollie has missed targets, Ollie has 400 FPS Arrows. Roland has NEVER Missed a target since his First Novel, the Gunslinger. He miss some shots in the Comics which has his Origins, however the 1st Novel to the 7th and last Novel, he has never miss a shot! He also is firing 1150 FPS Bullets.

Roland may look like a simple cowboy, he is in fact a super human in Eye Sight, Will Power, and Hand Speed.

Bio on Roland for those who have no clue.

Roland is the hero of the Dark Tower. What is the Dark Tower? It is the center of the Stephen King Multiverse.

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This is Roland's goal and quest to save a World that is moving on and keep the Crimson King bringing ruination to all.

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Roland

Lets start with Roland and his Bio. Click here.

Roland may seem like your common Cowboy with a humanly quick draw, but he is far more.

Roland was train since birth to fill the shoes of his father Steven. Steven being King of Gilead, Lead Gunslinger, and youngest to attain the Gunslinger mantel at 16. He also is the descendant of King Arthur himself.

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Roland's Father, Cuthbert's Father, and Alain's Father are ambush by Slow Mutants with poison darts. This sums up being a Gunslinger.

Roland turns out to be a prodigy in his Gun Slinging more so than his father.

Beings

Roland has fought species of his world and other worlds that would tear apart the mere cowboy.

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Vampires, Vampires come in 3 types. Type 3 are common and not as dangerous. Type Ones are known as Grandfathers like Barlow from Salems Lot and the Little Sisters of Eluria.

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Slow Mutants. General term for deform humans. Most exhibit superior strength.

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Taheen, the race of animal head humans. They possess keen eyes and senses. They are also immune to Telepathy.

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Low Men, the cross breed of Taheen and Humans. They are made to blend in human society.

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Not Men. Its still unknown if the Not Men are a result of technology or magic but are able to turn invisible. Perfect invisibility.

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Demons. Demons in Roland's worlds come in many, many forms. They have possessed houses, act as Oracles, and live in the elements.

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On top of all these Threats Roland has face robots and machines of the Old Ones. Mechanical Beings with highly advance weapons. Like the Wolves of Calla.

There are many other types including Sorcerers, Were Creatures, Psychics, and monsters that exist in the void of reality.

Roland is no stranger to Super Human beings.

He has many times killed Demons, Immortals, Vampires, Were Spiders, Battle Robots, ect. How does he battle these Super Human foes? With his own powers of Eye Sight, Accuracy, Hand Speed, and Skill.

Hand and Reaction Speed

First lets look at Speed Feats. Roland Speed with his Revolvers and hands is described as Supernatural, Preternatural, and Blinding.

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Scan 1: Roland speed to fast to see. Dark Tower

Scan 2: Roland Speed again with his back turn. Dark Tower

Scan 3: Roland dying of a fever moves too fast for human thought and described as fast as Blue Summer Lightning. Drawing of Three

Scan 4: Rolands Blinding speed again. Wizard and Glass

Scan 5: Rolands Supernatural Speed in reloading on horse back and galloping. Wizard and Glass

Scan 6: Roland Reloads with in human speed while dodging a mob. The Gunslinger

Scan 7: Roland reloads with a guy aiming at him with his teeth super fast. Drawing of Three

Scan 8: Description of Cuthbert speed and Roland is twice as fast according to Cuthbert and Alain.

Scan 9: Eddie Dean (Cuthbert reborn) drops down as Roland shoots 3 shots faster than he can think. The Wastelands

Scan 10: Roland as a child showed faster reaction and hand speed than other train gunslingers.

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Roland easily quick draws and fires 2 rounds thru the same hole in Jonas head. Jonas was a well known Quick Draw and train Gunslinger.

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Roland kills 8 Desert Dogs that charge him from all sides and only 10 feet away! Roland was fatigued and starving mad when this happen to him in the desert.

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Here Roland reacts and kills 5 Vampire Sucker Bats near instantly. Ever seen the erratic speed and movement of Bats? He does this in a near instant.

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Roland as said here was firing with blind rage yet still killed multiple enemies with every shot.

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Flathearty and his gang of 20 of Type 3 Vampires, Low Men, and Taheen are killed before they could fire there guns back. Flathearty himself is killed while halfway drawing his gun and Roland still had his hand up to his mouth. Dark Tower

Roland is already faster than Ollie.

Accuracy

Accuracy feats!

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Scan 1: Roland Fires his guns after being in pitch blackness for day and then fires again near Blind with perfect aim. The Gunslinger

Scan 2: Roland sick and dying uses a inaccurate Automatic pistol to predict and make a head shot. Drawing of Three

Scan 3: Roland Accuracy is commented when throwing a rock as true as his shooting. The Wastelands

Scan 4: Roland fires from the hip at Wolves of Calla (Robots) Antennas under their hoods with ease. Wolves of Calla

Scan 5-8: Roland spends a day with no food or water shooting explosive Harry Potter Sneetches that zig zag thru the air. Dark Tower

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Roland sniper shot with his revolver from a impossible distance.

Roland is just as accurate.

As I showed Roland is not someone you want to bring a Bow and Arrow to a Gunfight with. I highly doubt there will be any arrows in barrels here. I do see bullet between the eyes however!

So already I will sum up this match.

Roland will use his skills. He has skills, he lead entire wars as a teenager. Leading Cowboys with Wild West weapons vs WW2 armed Armies and won. He knows how to stealth into enemy camps and past supernatural beings. He knows how to use cover when shot at by thousands of soldiers!

Look at these feats of tracking and awareness.

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The Comic and Novel The Gunslinger best show off those Tracking abilities. Roland Tracking is superb and uses it to find and locate many a target or dinner.

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Scan 1: Roland dying of fever manages to half sleep and stay aware of Susana. Drawing of Three

Scan 2: Roland Psychically riding a Beam Quake to New York of another Universe can take in all he needs at first sight. Dark Tower

Scan 3-4: Roland during a battle with the Wolves of Calla is able to access the situation while reacting to threats still. Wolves of Calla

The guys track game and has feats of superhuman levels of awareness! With Oy, there is no way Ollie will get the drop on Roland.

Just to show how well he can survive in a fight using cover while avoiding mass gunfire.

.

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The Battle for Gilead

Roland with a few days time and only handful of novice Gunslingers hold off a army with Tanks and Bazookas.

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The Battle of Jericho Hill

Roland Outnumbered and Outgun. Yet Roland and his Gunslingers kill a hundred to their 1. Roland even with Snipers after him is the last to go down.

Roland wins with his simple set up.

Conclusions

  • Roland cannot be ambushed on or fired on first. Roland has Oy who already knows where Conner is in the general sense and Roland himself has Super Tracking, Eyesight, and Awareness.
  • Even if by some miracle Ollie sees Roland first, he have a whole in his head in the space of a heat lightning flash.
  • Roland has never miss a shot. I cannot stress this enough. He is that good of a shooter. Unless you can outpace the bullet, your getting hit. He has feats against Type 3 Vampires who are suppose to be above human, they regulary hunt humans. He moves faster than some of the fastest Humans who train all their lives for such speeds. He hits them dead on. Even when being riddled with bullets, he manages to kill with every shot. He does not miss.
  • You have trick arrows. Its cute, however Roland has fired near blind, in absolute darkness, and targets that are barely a glint in the sky. He can and should get pass most of your trick arrows and should definitely shoot down have of your bigger stuff like Bolas and such with ease.
  • Roland has no Morals. This is huge, GA will kill, sure, but he never goes for the kill. Roland allowed Jake Chambers, a boy who was like his own son, fall to death to reach a objective! He kills women and children if they stand in his way. He will Kill Ollie right off the bat.
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I think Roland has this. Like the Snipers motto. One Shot, One Kill.

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#20 Edited by the_red_viper (12534 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Nice argument. But...

Ollie has defeated supernatural opponents far more dangerous than vampires and such. For example:

He once used his trick arrows to incapitate Etrigan, an extremely powerul deom that battles the likes of Superman and Swamp Thing:

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Also, here's Ollie taking out Solomon Grundy, a zombie with incredible strength and durability:

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And of course there's the Darkseid scan I showed you earlier.

About your puppy:

Now that I know you have a little helper, I need to change my strategy. Bummer =\ eh, no matter. I'll take this to a different direction: instead of finding the highest vantage point in the city, Ollie would use his trick arrows to set traps and lure Roland and Oy into them.

I'm assuming Roland would send Oy to locate Ollie for him, right? Ollie can also shoot explosive arrows and wait for Oy to get close, then detonate them and take him out quickly.

Ollie would go south instead of northeast:

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Hiding behind those rocks you see here, Ollie would have cover from all directions and he can set many traps for you.

So, after Oy is dealt with, Roland would follow, and fall into another of Ollie's explosive traps. Ollie would be hiding behind the rocks, and his green suit would help him merge with the background so Roland would have a hard time spotting him.

Another option would be trapping Oy in a net arrow. The moment Roland gets there himself, the first thing he's going to see is his buddy Oy trapped and helpless in a net. That would provide Ollie with a good distraction, so he can detonate the explosives or fire an arrow at Roland without having to worry about being seen.

Also, Ollie would fire smoke arrows at where I marked the blue dots. Those smokescreens would also provide as a lure and give Ollie a better chance to detonate the explosions in time, since the smoke would slow Oy and Roland down.

Now, as for Roland's accuracy and speed-I don't doubt it's amazing. But, you can say the same about Deadshot, the number one gunman in DC:

Here's Deadshot keeping up with a speedster (like Flash):

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Some nice trickshots:

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Taking out 3 men with pins (or whatever that is):

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Deadshot has had many chances to kill Batman, a regular bullet dodger, but Batman knows that Deadshot always pulls his shots for some reason:

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Able to keep his aim on a man while falling from the sky and deploying a parachute:

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Shoots Ollie's bowstring:

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So, it's safe to say Deadshot's just as good as Roland, if not better. But Ollie has outshot him before (arrow-through-the-barrel FTW):

Notice that Ollie is wounded.
Notice that Ollie is wounded.

And I have shown you numerous scans of Ollie dodging both automatic and semi-automatic gunfire in my last post. Important to say, that no matter how fast Roland is, he can't shoot faster than a fully automatic rifle, since revolvers just can't shoot that fast. So that's another thing in Ollie's favor.

Now, regarding Ollie's own speed: You'll notice in this scan right here:

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That Ollie can pull an arrow out of his quiver, noch, draw, aim and fire before the first arrow has gone more than about 10 centimeters.

Now, as you yourself said-arrows go at 400 FPS. 1 foot=30 centimeters. So, arrows go at 12,000 centimeters a second. So, an arrow would go 10 centimeters in 1/1,200 of a second. Which means Ollie can pull an arrow out of his quiver, nock, draw, aim (with uncanny accuracy) and fire in 1/1,200 of a second. Which is by itself faster than Roland has shown.

So, in conclusion:

  • Ollie would run for cover the moment the fight starts.
  • He would set up explosive traps for Oy and Roland. The moment either of them comes within range of the explosion, Ollie's going to detonate the explosive arrows and take them out.
  • Ollie's smokescreens would help lure Oy and Roland to his traps and would also slow them down.
  • Alternatively, Ollie can trap Oy in a net arrow, which would serve as a distraction and help him take out Roland quicker and more efficiently.
  • Ollie's green costume would help him merge into the background so it'd be harder for Roland to detect him.
  • Ollie can outshoot gun users like Deadshot, a man who's kept up with speedsters, which certainly puts on Roland's level at the very least.
  • Ollie can pull an arrow from his quiver, nock, draw, aim and fire with unbelievable accuracy in approximately 1/1,200 seconds.

Your move, my friend.

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#21 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: I wanted to point out that most of your tactics are SERIOUSLY out of character for Ollie. Your making alot of statements of Morals Off Ollie here.

Ollie has defeated supernatural opponents far more dangerous than vampires and such. For example:

So Beating Entrigan and Grundy who have Street Level Stats to Super Man Stats depending on the story is a feat? Also how is Darkseid a feat? Does DS have Super Sight of any kind to see through smoke?

About your puppy:

Now that I know you have a little helper, I need to change my strategy. Bummer =\ eh, no matter. I'll take this to a different direction: instead of finding the highest vantage point in the city, Ollie would use his trick arrows to set traps and lure Roland and Oy into them.

I'm assuming Roland would send Oy to locate Ollie for him, right? Ollie can also shoot explosive arrows and wait for Oy to get close, then detonate them and take him out quickly.

LOL no. Roland would NEVER let Oy be set up for death. Oy is as much part of his Ka-Tet as much as Jake, Eddie, or Susan. Plus he would never sacrifice his advantage of Oy. No, in the novels Oy stays close to the group, within 4-5 feet. In the Comics, another Billy Bumbler stays pretty close.

Heres a question, how will Green Arrow know this Racoon is working with Roland. This is a Random battle with Basic Knowledge on Roland. Not Oy, or what a Billy Bumbler is.....

Also more to this Roland is not allowing himself to be sniped, he has no clue what your able to fire on him with. He will stealth along as much as Ollie like he has in his years of war!

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He with his friend Cuthbert stealth entire Military Encampments.

Ollie would go south instead of northeast:

Hiding behind those rocks you see here, Ollie would have cover from all directions and he can set many traps for you.

This is all well and good, however Roland been through over 3 years of straight warfare with the Greatest Army in the Stephen King Multiverse. John Farsons Army, made up of Super Sci Fi and Super Natural beings. Highly train for hundreds of years. Why is Ollie half bake traps working here? How is he staying out of sight of Roland who has made Half Mile shots though foggy conditions?

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Ollie has nothing on Range of Roland either.

So, after Oy is dealt with, Roland would follow, and fall into another of Ollie's explosive traps. Ollie would be hiding behind the rocks, and his green suit would help him merge with the background so Roland would have a hard time spotting him.

Your really not giving credit here :)

If Roland was so easily lured into traps like that, he been dead 10 times over in the Novels. He has done these exact things in his Battle of Gilead! I posted the scans? He is no falling for that nonsense and Oy who will be alive and well can warn him.

Did you also forget Roland is a expert tracker! I showed the scans above. He tracks wild game and humans alike with nothing but his eyes and knowledge! He will see your traps or attempts at traps pretty easily.

Another option would be trapping Oy in a net arrow. The moment Roland gets there himself, the first thing he's going to see is his buddy Oy trapped and helpless in a net. That would provide Ollie with a good distraction, so he can detonate the explosives or fire an arrow at Roland without having to worry about being seen.

Well that will not work, Oy is not going to be far ahead of him. The Bumblers he has never are!

Let me show you.

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Roland and Bumbler vs Not Men (Guys who have perfect Invisibility) the first time. Armed with Flagg's Super Poison Darts.

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Roland and Bumbler vs Slow Mutants.

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Here Roland fights a Gang of Not Men mostly without his Billy Bumbler this time. Heck these guys are also more well armed than Poison Blow Darts.

All of these fights are Roland, while way younger, having another pet Bumbler that remains nameless. This Bumbler is never far from him and works with him as a Close Combat weapon. They are a team as much as Oy was with Roland and his Ka-Tet. Your not snagging Oy and your not getting the surprise shot on Oy without Roland seeing and head shotting Ollie.

Also, Ollie would fire smoke arrows at where I marked the blue dots. Those smokescreens would also provide as a lure and give Ollie a better chance to detonate the explosions in time, since the smoke would slow Oy and Roland down.

Whats with all these Out of character Explosives? I chose not to bring Dynamite assuming we have Morals On character.....

Now, as for Roland's accuracy and speed-I don't doubt it's amazing. But, you can say the same about Deadshot, the number one gunman in DC:

So, it's safe to say Deadshot's just as good as Roland, if not better. But Ollie has outshot him before (arrow-through-the-barrel FTW):

And I have shown you numerous scans of Ollie dodging both automatic and semi-automatic gunfire in my last post. Important to say, that no matter how fast Roland is, he can't shoot faster than a fully automatic rifle, since revolvers just can't shoot that fast. So that's another thing in Ollie's favor.

What you proved is Deadshot Accuracy was off as commented in that fight. What ya proved is Deadshot easily shot the string off the bow :)

Roland would not shoot the string, he shoot Ollie's head.

Now, regarding Ollie's own speed: You'll notice in this scan right here:

That Ollie can pull an arrow out of his quiver, noch, draw, aim and fire before the first arrow has gone more than about 10 centimeters.

Now, as you yourself said-arrows go at 400 FPS. 1 foot=30 centimeters. So, arrows go at 12,000 centimeters a second. So, an arrow would go 10 centimeters in 1/1,200 of a second. Which means Ollie can pull an arrow out of his quiver, nock, draw, aim (with uncanny accuracy) and fire in 1/1,200 of a second. Which is by itself faster than Roland has shown.

So you base all these falty calcs on a nameless cowboy feat? If he is so fast.... then why does Deathstroke and Deadshot blts him with attacks and gunfire? Roland as shown has stated feats and shown feats of super human speed in his reaction and hand speeds.

Heres a scan for ya. Cuthbert shoots out the pistol being drawn by this very well known and stated quick draw gunslinger. With a Sling Shot! Then reloads it from his pouch to hand, slings it back, and has it aimed at the gunslingers head before he registered what happen!

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Thats speed. Guess what? Roland is stated by Cuthbert to be too fast for him to barely process. We know by Cuthbert's confessions that Roland is still the way faster one. He was the fastest in his world and others.

Calc that. Better yet Calc the bats being shot instantly together.

Loading Video...

Bats are fast.

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Roland shoots 5 bats with 5 rounds. It drawn to show that speed how they were 4-5 feet away, shot at what looks the same time, and were still near same distance away! He was surrounded all around by 5 Bats and one shots them in a circle at what appears the same time!

Calc that.

Conclusion again...

  • Roland is still by far a faster shot than Ollie.
  • Ollie in character will not use killing explosions.
  • Roland might as well out stealth Ollie like he has many times against Farson's armies, City of Lud, or deer and rabbits he kills all the time.
  • Roland has a heavy tactful mind. He lead armies for years in Guerrilla warfare. He has been outnumbered many times in 100 to 1 situations. Ollie is not doing anything to get the drop on Roland.
  • Oy will be the greatest asset in locating Green Arrow direction from 100s of meters away as well any traps. Not that Roland needs anymore help than he has with his Tracking Skills and Super Human Sight/Awareness.
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#22 Posted by the_red_viper (12534 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Well then!

I wanted to point out that most of your tactics are SERIOUSLY out of character for Ollie. Your making alot of statements of Morals Off Ollie here.

Actually, Ollie's explosives are designed to be non-lethal. They are designed to KO/incapitate, and he's using them quite a lot:

In here it's a timed explosive which is another type of arrow than the remotely detonated explosive arrow, but it's the same idea:

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And:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

In here he planted the explosives on his quiver instead of his arrows but it's the same idea really.

Also, in the scan with Connor and the robot, the explosion didn't do anything to the robot.

So Beating Entrigan and Grundy who have Street Level Stats to Super Man Stats depending on the story is a feat? Also how is Darkseid a feat? Does DS have Super Sight of any kind to see through smoke?

Well Grundy is sometimes street level, that's true, but Etrigan is a consistant high-tier. He's battling guys like Superman and Swamp Thing on a regular basis.

LOL no. Roland would NEVER let Oy be set up for death. Oy is as much part of his Ka-Tet as much as Jake, Eddie, or Susan. Plus he would never sacrifice his advantage of Oy. No, in the novels Oy stays close to the group, within 4-5 feet. In the Comics, another Billy Bumbler stays pretty close.

So Ollie would take them both out with one explosion, no biggie.

Heres a question, how will Green Arrow know this Racoon is working with Roland. This is a Random battle with Basic Knowledge on Roland. Not Oy, or what a Billy Bumbler is.....

Well here's the thing: when I made the thread I didn't know Oy was an animal. I thought it was some sort of weapon or something until tparks clarified he's an animal. It's only logical that Ollie would have basic knowledge on ALL his enemies instead of only 1 of them. Like you yourself said, Oy is by all means Roland's partner. It's like battling Batman and Robin without knowledge on Robin.

Also more to this Roland is not allowing himself to be sniped, he has no clue what your able to fire on him with. He will stealth along as much as Ollie like he has in his years of war!

That's not really practical. Ollie's hiding in a very strategic location, Roland can't sneak up on him. He has no cover to use if he's going to get close to Ollie, and nothing to protect him from Ollie's traps.

This is all well and good, however Roland been through over 3 years of straight warfare with the Greatest Army in the Stephen King Multiverse. John Farsons Army, made up of Super Sci Fi and Super Natural beings. Highly train for hundreds of years. Why is Ollie half bake traps working here? How is he staying out of sight of Roland who has made Half Mile shots though foggy conditions?

Because, Ollie would have the smokescreens. Rolan'd can't see through dense smoke screens, he doesn't have infra-red or thermal optics. The traps would be hidden in the smoke and just outside the smoke, so Ollie can detonate them before Roland even has the chance to see him. Moreover, the arrows are hidden in the tall grass. Ollie isn't called "Green Arrow" for nothing. His arrows are GREEN, as you can see in all the scans I showed you. Roland wouldn't be able to see them hidden in the tall grass. When Roland and Oy would be about to exit the smokescreen, Ollie's gonna see their silhouettes and detonate his traps. Roland and Oy wouldn't see Ollie, because he's in the cover of the rocks. Even if they're gonna catch the silhouette of his head above the rocks it's just gonna look like a lump in the rock, and nothing more. Not to mention that the smoke would blind them both, just like it did Darkseid. So unlike Ollie, you're not going to be able to see anything. Bottom line, Ollie's gonna see them before they see him and detonate his traps.

If Roland was so easily lured into traps like that, he been dead 10 times over in the Novels. He has done these exact things in his Battle of Gilead! I posted the scans? He is no falling for that nonsense and Oy who will be alive and well can warn him.

So what other choice does he have? The only way for Roland and Oy to find Ollie is going to where he's hiding. It's either that or just waiting and doing nothing. I'm fine with that.

Did you also forget Roland is a expert tracker! I showed the scans above. He tracks wild game and humans alike with nothing but his eyes and knowledge! He will see your traps or attempts at traps pretty easily.

That won't help him avoid being blinded by the smoke. Darkseid has, if anything, better eyesight than a human. So if the smoke was able to blind Darkseid it would blind Roland and Oy as well.

Well that will not work, Oy is not going to be far ahead of him. The Bumblers he has never are!

I already covered that. One explosion would be able to take them both down, not much of a problem really.

Whats with all these Out of character Explosives? I chose not to bring Dynamite assuming we have Morals On character....

Like I said, Ollie uses his explosives on a regular basis, and they're designed to wound and incapitate, not to kill. It's not at all out of character for Ollie to plant explosive traps.

What you proved is Deadshot Accuracy was off as commented in that fight. What ya proved is Deadshot easily shot the string off the bow :)

Well that's one occasion. Deadshot and Ollie are old adversaries. Ollie has avoided his fire and outshot him more than once. Here's another scan (it's the same fight though):

In here you see that Deadshot pulled his guns out before Ollie pulled out his arrows:

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Here Deadshot shot Ollie's arrows before they reached him (quite a feat for Deadshot, considering he had 3 arrows coming at him from a very close range). That last arrow he shot was a flashbang arrow. Shooting the arrow made it go off before it hit its mark, and that's what caused Deadshot's accuracy to be off.

So you base all these falty calcs on a nameless cowboy feat? If he is so fast.... then why does Deathstroke and Deadshot blts him with attacks and gunfire? Roland as shown has stated feats and shown feats of super human speed in his reaction and hand speeds.

That has nothing to do with the gunman Ollie was facing. If you look at the picture, the first arrow went only about 10 centimeters before Ollie managed to pull the new arrow out of his quiver, nock, draw, aim and fire. That speed feat has nothing to do with the man he was facing. Deadshot and Deathstroke give Ollie a hard time because they're his equals, and Ollie's beaten both of them on many occasions.

Roland shoots 5 bats with 5 rounds. It drawn to show that speed how they were 4-5 feet away, shot at what looks the same time, and were still near same distance away! He was surrounded all around by 5 Bats and one shots them in a circle at what appears the same time!

Well, that's not going to be very helpful since he's blinded by the smoke.

Roland is still by far a faster shot than Ollie.

Eevn if it's true, it won't help him since he doesn't know where Ollie is. The smoke would blind him.

Ollie in character will not use killing explosions.

I agree. He WOULD use non-lethal explosives, though.

Roland might as well out stealth Ollie like he has many times against Farson's armies, City of Lud, or deer and rabbits he kills all the time.

That's irrelevant since Roland has no cover to use. Plus, there's the smoke. You keep ignoring the smoke.

Roland has a heavy tactful mind. He lead armies for years in Guerrilla warfare. He has been outnumbered many times in 100 to 1 situations. Ollie is not doing anything to get the drop on Roland.

Well it's either going straight into Ollie's traps or doing nothing.

Oy will be the greatest asset in locating Green Arrow direction from 100s of meters away as well any traps. Not that Roland needs anymore help than he has with his Tracking Skills and Super Human Sight/Awareness.

By all means, do track me. I'm looking forward to it.

Well I'm personally ready for votes...

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#23 Posted by JwwProd (20675 posts) - - Show Bio

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#24 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Closing Post.

Well then!

You cant see me but I am making my "See here!" face.

Actually, Ollie's explosives are designed to be non-lethal. They are designed to KO/incapitate, and he's using them quite a lot:

Ok, so its Shock force then. Roland will have no problems with this. His Durability is insane!

Roland has been banged up pretty Good as well.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

After the Battle of Jericho Hill Roland been Shot and Skull Cracked. As seen from above he not only gets back up from the dead bodies, but Sprints with a friend in his arms.

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As seen here Roland has no problem tanking heavy hits even on the skull, or blocking swings from heavy wood bludgeoning.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Roland jumps a Type One Vampire known as sister Mary. She slams him with that Vampire strength head first into a rock.Roland however is back on his feat quick.

He is a man!

So Ollie would take them both out with one explosion, no biggie.

Except Oy will know the direction Ollie is before Ollie figuring where Roland and Oy are stealthing.

Well here's the thing: when I made the thread I didn't know Oy was an animal. I thought it was some sort of weapon or something until tparks clarified he's an animal. It's only logical that Ollie would have basic knowledge on ALL his enemies instead of only 1 of them. Like you yourself said, Oy is by all means Roland's partner. It's like battling Batman and Robin without knowledge on Robin.

Fair enough.

That's not really practical. Ollie's hiding in a very strategic location, Roland can't sneak up on him. He has no cover to use if he's going to get close to Ollie, and nothing to protect him from Ollie's traps.

Roland has sneaked in and killed 3 different Strategic Camps in the Novels when he was leading Gilead in war. Ollie is superior to 100s of troops on watch and train for it?

Also Roland Tracker Skills and Super Awareness as I showed will not fall for traps. Oy sniffing traps out increases this.

Because, Ollie would have the smokescreens. Rolan'd can't see through dense smoke screens, he doesn't have infra-red or thermal optics. The traps would be hidden in the smoke and just outside the smoke, so Ollie can detonate them before Roland even has the chance to see him. Moreover, the arrows are hidden in the tall grass. Ollie isn't called "Green Arrow" for nothing. His arrows are GREEN, as you can see in all the scans I showed you. Roland wouldn't be able to see them hidden in the tall grass. When Roland and Oy would be about to exit the smokescreen, Ollie's gonna see their silhouettes and detonate his traps. Roland and Oy wouldn't see Ollie, because he's in the cover of the rocks. Even if they're gonna catch the silhouette of his head above the rocks it's just gonna look like a lump in the rock, and nothing more. Not to mention that the smoke would blind them both, just like it did Darkseid. So unlike Ollie, you're not going to be able to see anything. Bottom line, Ollie's gonna see them before they see him and detonate his traps.

If it wasn't for the fact Roland has slipped through Clamore Traps and Land Mines, I might agree. Nothing your stating is something Roland has not encountered. In Fact Roland has encountered worse, like traps with Cameras that Telepathy wise turn your brain into jelly!

Also why is smoke a big deal? Ever use a Smoke Grenade? I have, the dissipate in minuets. Roland will not only have a clue where your guy is at, but depending on wind and climate, he can stay put and wait those smoke screens to blow out.

Also Darksied has no Super sight of any kind. Why keep bringing this up.

So what other choice does he have? The only way for Roland and Oy to find Ollie is going to where he's hiding. It's either that or just waiting and doing nothing. I'm fine with that.

Roland has survived for 1 week with no Water and Food while crossing a blazing desert. Can Ollie say the same :)

I can wait you out way before you do mine. Also I highly doubt GA carries enough gear to lay so many traps, that Roland cannot navigate around.

That won't help him avoid being blinded by the smoke. Darkseid has, if anything, better eyesight than a human. So if the smoke was able to blind Darkseid it would blind Roland and Oy as well.

Proff of Darkseid Better Eyesight? Proof of Darkseid having better eyesight than Roland's own super human sight?!

Again Why is Roland pushing through the smoke? It be out of character....

Like I said, Ollie uses his explosives on a regular basis, and they're designed to wound and incapitate, not to kill. It's not at all out of character for Ollie to plant explosive traps.

Roland Durability is better than any of these weak explosions on average people.

Well that's one occasion. Deadshot and Ollie are old adversaries. Ollie has avoided his fire and outshot him more than once. Here's another scan (it's the same fight though):

How many times does Deadshot win a battle vs a Hero? Not many times at all? He loses alot due to plot!

I thought so. Wait, didnt I explain Roland has never miss a shot during Drawing of Three? The second Novel of seven!?

That has nothing to do with the gunman Ollie was facing. If you look at the picture, the first arrow went only about 10 centimeters before Ollie managed to pull the new arrow out of his quiver, nock, draw, aim and fire. That speed feat has nothing to do with the man he was facing. Deadshot and Deathstroke give Ollie a hard time because they're his equals, and Ollie's beaten both of them on many occasions.

Yet Ollie feat has no statement or bio of Super Speed. Its PIS?WIS or simply a artist mistake.

Cannot say the same of Roland's consistent stated and shown feats.

Well, that's not going to be very helpful since he's blinded by the smoke.

He made head shots half a mile away in foggy conditions.... just throwing that out there again.

That's irrelevant since Roland has no cover to use. Plus, there's the smoke. You keep ignoring the smoke.

Look at this map! There is tons of cover. Also unlike Ollie who has 500 yards max, Roland has Half a Mile range. He can stay out of range easy if he chose to do so.

Well it's either going straight into Ollie's traps or doing nothing.

He can easily out wait or out range Ollie as well. Heck he can send Oy to gather food behind the battle while he waits it out :)

Well I'm personally ready for votes...

Call outs! @jokergeist@xanni15@rossnrachel4ever@doomdoomdoom@dondave@i_like_swords@thundergodswrath@strider92@esquire@nickzambuto@god_spawn@deranged_midget@beatboks1@thedarklordpandamonium@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk@mr_ingenuity@laflux@thetruebarryallen Short straight to the point match.

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#25 Posted by the_red_viper (12534 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Just a few small things:

1. Roland's durability is very nice but the least this explosion would do is knocking him off his feet, giving Ollie the chance to finish the battle with a net arrow/bola arrow/any other arrow.

2. Foggy conditions isn't like dense smokescreens. It's impossible seeing through these things without special optic gadgets.

3. Well there isn't really much cover, see I've played Skyrim and there isn't much cover in that area, the map is kinda decieving.

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#27 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper:

Call out all you can. Its a short read to most.... well actually its not all that short.

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#28 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: @the_red_viper: hey Viper this was one of the best debates ive seen but unfortunately up against someone like CadenceV2 its hard to win. (you used GA beautifully it made me proud) but Cadence gets my vote

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#31 Edited by rogueshadow (28980 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Thanks for the tag I've been following this with great enthusiasm! Am I supposed to just say who I agree with or is it based on debating skills? I'm not sure what to do in these things.

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#32 Posted by i_like_swords (26081 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Thanks for the tag I've been following this with great enthusiasm! Am I supposed to just say who I agree with or is it based on debating skills? I'm not sure what to do in these things.

It's based on who debated their character better.

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#33 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow said:

@the_red_viper: Thanks for the tag I've been following this with great enthusiasm! Am I supposed to just say who I agree with or is it based on debating skills? I'm not sure what to do in these things.

Actually give both if ya want. CaV is more debater skills, so who do you think debated better and go ahead who you think should win a real match.

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#34 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (12458 posts) - - Show Bio

Incredibly good battle, I had never heard of Roland before but WOW is he an amazing combatant.

In the end I'll have to give my vote to @cadencev2 for a couple of reasons

  • Rolands Accuracy in terms of never missing a shot is AMAZING. He's not just your average gunslinger!
  • Oy helps Roland track Ollie, a huge advantage. Ollie has some good senses, but I don't think he'd be able to avoid both Oy & Roland while they search for/track him.
  • Roland could just shoot Ollie's arrows. In the scans in the battle against Deadshot, Deadshot is able to shoot Ollie's arrows with ease. He's also able to set off the trick arrows before Ollie had been able to close his eyes ( so he got blinded by the Flash Bang too ) so this could throw Oliver off his guard, and allow Roland to sink a shot between his eyes.

Green arrow could indeed set some traps, but Roland shows that he's able to either avoid or survive the traps without much of a problem. GA also may be able to dodge bullets, and his fight against Deadshot might lead one to assume that GA could dodge bullets form an expert marksman all day long, but DS suffers from villain syndrome in the fact that he usually will NEVER win a fight against a hero or be able to deliver a killing blow due to plot.

Green Arrow can spit arrows out mighty fast, but Roland can react just as quick, blast em out of the sky, shoot the string of GA's bow, and then overwhelm him while GA tries to throw arrows at him.

So like I said, great battle here, but I believe Roland takes it by a small margin.

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#35 Edited by rogueshadow (28980 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by Jokergeist (4714 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for Katie..oops I mean KadenceV2.

Sincerely,

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#37 Edited by the_red_viper (12534 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah... didn't think so.

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#38 Posted by rogueshadow (28980 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I vote for Roland to win. He's never missed a shot. Ever. He was the youngest GS in history andHe's brutal killing the entire population of Tull and not caring at all, if you stop him in his quest for the Dark Tower of even slow him down, he will end you/cut you loose. His skill with guns is unparalleled, he's like the man with no name, Django and Deadshot rolled into one and then multiplied by 1000. Traps are nothing to Roland, add Oy into the equation and he's a definite winner.

The only potential loss to me comes from Roland's inside the box thinking, he's not sharp like Cuthbert etc. That said he's not unintelligent, just pragmatic and slightly uncreative.

As to the debaters, I'm going to give it to @the_red_viper. He had a tough gig arguing against Roland, but he definitely held his own despite having [In my opinion] the weaker character.

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#39 Posted by the_red_viper (12534 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Edited by rogueshadow (28980 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Edited by the_red_viper (12534 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3399 posts) - - Show Bio

I never read the novels but thought the graphic novel I burrowed from Cadence were fun reads. As far debating, The Red Viper had a major uphill battle. Good match though.

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#44 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

I never read the novels but thought the graphic novel I burrowed from Cadence were fun reads. As far debating, The Red Viper had a major uphill battle. Good match though.

.....traitor.

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#45 Posted by juiceboks (24556 posts) - - Show Bio

Just read through this whole thing. Very impressive on both ends but Roland is one of if not the most deadly street level marksman in comic book history and @cadencev2 always reminds me of that every time he debates with him. He has my vote.

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#46 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: @the_red_viper: Awesome debate! It looks like you're probably done with voting, which is probably good, because my favoritism towards Roland would heavily effect my decision no matter how impartial I would try to be. lol.

TRV, you did an awesome job with Ollie, which doesn't surprise me because every time I read a battle where you debate for Green Arrow or a Green Arrowish character, your knowledge on them and their feats blows my mind.

CadenceV2, I enjoyed this read way too much. I loved the Dark Tower novels. I personally don't think there is a single street level ranged user in comics that can beat Roland without PIS, and you pretty much proved it for me with the amount of information you provided in your arguments.

Awesome debate. One of my favorite ones I've read in a while. Thanks for a great read!

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#47 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: I just checked it out. That is really impressive. I read in a different battle thread somewhere that you were putting together a Were Wolf by Night respect thread too. I'm going to keep an eye out for that one. I only have read Were Wolf By Night in the couple of appearances he had with Moon Knight, but I'm really interested in his character and want to see what you come up with, especially after reading the your Roland thread.

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#49 Edited by the_red_viper (12534 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Thanks, man! Glad to hear it :)

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#50 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: I will giva ya a call out when I do it. Might be a little bit still.