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#1 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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One of the sole survivors of the Ultimate Marvel Universe claws his way to the top to challenge the King.

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The King of Wakanda steps up against this new challenger.

Rules

  • Random Battle.
  • Death or KO.
  • Standard Gear.
  • Current Incarnations.
  • Start 20 feet apart here.
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#2 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Im ready Jashro! Its been a long time since we CAV, and I been working out since then on my Miles lore.

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Im ready! Ultimate Marvel representation!

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#3 Posted by Amendment50 (15152 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#4 Posted by jashro44 (52000 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by Pr0tocol (904 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by jashro44 (52000 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Alright. I probably wont get a post up until tomorrow. I want to get some sleep before I start thinking what I'm going to type.

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#8 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@sirfizzwhizz: Alright. I probably wont get a post up until tomorrow. I want to get some sleep before I start thinking what I'm going to type.

Sounds good.

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#9 Posted by jashro44 (52000 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: All though can you edit the standard gear part and make note that T'challa only has energy daggers and anti-metal claws? I ask because T'challa does have his vibranium suit currently and I know you didn't want me to use it, and I don't want people to vote against me for not bringing it up....

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#10 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@sirfizzwhizz: All though can you edit the standard gear part and make note that T'challa only has energy daggers and anti-metal claws? I ask because T'challa does have his vibranium suit currently and I know you didn't want me to use it, and I don't want people to vote against me for not bringing it up....

Pffftt, people would ignore that anyway and be bias. I dont want it to look like I am limiting ya.

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#11 Posted by jashro44 (52000 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@sirfizzwhizz: But you are :p

What?! I said bring it. The only game changer is Vibranium Armor which you assure me is not standard. Otherwise I will make it blood lusted Miles.

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Invincible.

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#13 Edited by Vertigo- (17679 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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Please don't let us down.

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#14 Posted by AcroKat (7384 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

Please finish this one :<

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#16 Edited by Revan- (7959 posts) - - Show Bio

Definitely T4V

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#17 Posted by TheNaughtyTitan (10001 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#18 Posted by Chimeroid (9233 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice a CaV with high caliber debaters. Do tag for votes.

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#19 Posted by lubub55 (12877 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#20 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5531 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh My God. T4V

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#21 Edited by jashro44 (52000 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Sorry I didn't get my post up today. I'm just letting you know I did start it. I'll try to get it up tomorrow or by the weekend.

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#22 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: no prob mate. If you do get it up be.y the weekend, just know I won't get mine up till Monday. 12 hour shifts and family make weekends impossible.

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#23 Posted by jashro44 (52000 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz:

Alright so since I am debating that I think everyone knows well I will forgo the character opener and just jump into the debate (I always hated those damn openers). I'm going to just open by hitting what I think will be the most relevant and biggest points of discussion.

I also want to remind the voters that the only weapons T'challa has here are his energy daggers and anti-metal claws. T'challa does not have his vibranium suit despite what the OP says. The first factor I shall discuss is:

Miles Speed and Spider-sense VS T'challa's skill

I think it goes without saying that most voters at first glance think Miles has the edge here due to his on paper stats. But I am going to say no. Something a lot of people forget is while Miles has improved since his early days he is still just a kid. He doesn't have as much experience as other heroes in marvel. And because of T'challa's experience it isn't impossible to believe that T'challa is faster and more efficient than Miles.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

These scans are from the recent Spidey series, which is a series which follows a younger spider-man (Peter is probably about as experienced and skilled as Miles is currently in this series). In the scans there are two very big things to note:

  1. Peter says Black Panther is faster than he is. In fact T'challa is moving so fast that Peter begins asking him questions like if he was bitten by a radioactive panther! So this alone shows T'challa has the speed and skill to keep up with people with spider-powers. Peter is literally awe-struck by the way T'challa blitzes those thugs to the point he has to remind himself to "inner-monologue".
  2. Peter comments that not only is T'challa fast but he appears to have an ability that is like spider-sense only better because its faster and more intuitive. T'challa explains that he can sense where his enemies are about to strike before they do because he "listens to his surroundings".

Now I don't think T'challa is faster than current Peter Parker. But the point of these scans is that despite Miles having spider-powers that doesn't automatically make him faster than T'challa. Even his spider-sense isn't an advantage because T'challa's awareness, instincts,

So with that out of the way I hope people take the idea of T'challa being faster than Miles more seriously. Because I do honestly believe T'challa has better speed feats than Miles. We'll start with this feat of T'challa dodging iron fists attacks while under water:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

I uploaded the script of the issue to verify that T'challa was indeed dodging iron fists punches. But what makes this feat even more impressive is the fact that while under water iron fist was throwing punches faster than eyes can track and was described as "at best an abstract blur". Logically both T'challa and iron fist would only be much faster while on land. Miles has never to my knowledge displayed combat speed at this level. He's never fought as a blur or faster than eyes can track let alone while in an environment which would hinder his movements.

Another good speed feat for T'challa would be one shotting Karnak. This also doubles as a good skill feat for T'challa seeing how he managed to lay him out in one strike:

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I also count this as a speed feat as well as a skill feat since Karnak stated T'challas speed gave him an edge:

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And I am willing to argue that Karnak is faster than Miles considering Karnak was able to casually cut a bullet in half with his finger:

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Plus Karnak has the benefit of having actual martial arts training. And yet T'challa straight up fodderized him.

I also would like to add that Miles has never faced someone who has skill established to be as good as black panther's. And Miles has been challenged by certain martial artists:

  • His first fight with prowler Miles did have some problems. He was tagged before he immbolized Prowler. Yes Miles was less experienced than he is now but the showing still happened.
  • His fight with batroc. Miles got tagged here as well due to batroc's greater fighting skills and only won when Batroc got distracted.
  • Against Ultimate Crossbones during all new ultimate's. IIRC Crossbones nearly defeated Miles.

Now you can argue that Miles has improved since these showings but the fact of the matter is that Miles has no other fights against a skilled martial artists. So there is no reason to assume that T'challa's fighting skills wont give Miles grief. Oh and I know your going to claim that batroc is super human in the ultimate universe but even assuming he has super human reflexes so does T'challa. So it wouldn't matter.

But to reiterate the main take away from these examples is Miles doesn't have the greatest track record against skilled fighters.

Addressing Miles Venom Sting, Camouflage, and Webbing!

Alright so next up is to address webbing and other advantages Miles normally has against other characters. I'll start off by addressing camouflage and just say that T'challa has enhanced senses on par with wolverine, and recently he has displayed the ability to track people's souls as well:

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Really there is nothing to say here. Miles cannot hide from T'challa at all. Moving on the next factor I will address is webbing. Miles isn't very accurate with his webbing. He can use his webbing in large quantities but he doesn't do that in character during his actual fights. However assuming that Miles does randomly decide to fire his webbing in large quantities its not a big deal because I would argue T'challa has a good chance of escaping webbing by using energy daggers:

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Here T'challa is being restrained by a skrull and he uses his energy daggers to deaden every nerve in the skrulls body. Notice how when T'challa is wrapped up there is a glow which indicates area of effect. This means that T'challa can simply burn his way out of Miles webbing if he does get some how restrained.

Now moving on to what is the biggest problem in this debate which is the venom sting. Miles can either use the venom sting by touching T'challa or by conducting it through the ground. Now I think the easiest way for T'challa to counter the latter method is just to pressure Miles in melee. What I mean is that if T'challa is attacking Miles, Miles is going to have to focus on not getting tagged by T'challa's energy daggers and he isn't going to get the chance to make contact with the ground to conduct his venom sting. I've already proven above that T'challa has more than the speed and skill necessary to keep the pressure up.

Additionally they only start 20 feet apart. So they already begin close up to begin with and I doubt Miles is going to open up with the venom sting. So Miles is going to have to go hand to hand with T'challa and he will lose for reasons stated above:

  1. T'challa is faster than Miles
  2. He is a more skilled martial artists
  3. Miles spider-sense doesn't make up for his lack of skill against T'challa considering T'challa's own awareness and instinct (remember Peters comments that T'challa appears to have a better version of his spider-sense above).
  4. Even Miles damage output isn't an advantage on account of T'challa's energy daggers.

So T'challa will beat Miles down every time in a melee encounter.

Addressing Miles Fight With Spider-man

Me and you have debated this fight so many times I figured you were going to bring it up so I decided to devote an entire section of our debate to it. Because we are probably going to run through this fight.

http://imgur.com/a/x6lsf

I think the first point to bring up is that Peter was clearly holding back and during the fight he wasn't utilizing his agility like he normally does in a fight. Basically he didn't bring his A-game to the fight. The second point I will bring up is that when Peter entered the ultimate universe he claimed that he felt fluish when he entered the ultimate universe. Peter comments that when he enters the ultimate universe he has the shakes:

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Additionally Peter stated during the fight that he was freaked out. And as I have explained to you before Peter's mental and physical condition do affect his spider-sense:

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  1. In the first scan SpOck says that he wasn't concentrating on using his powers and that his mind overriding his body is still a problem.
  2. In the next two scans Peter while tired and thinking about how to patch things up with Aunt May gets taken by surprise because he "was to caught up within his own thoughts" and didn't notice his spider-sense buzzing.

So because Peter was in a mental state where he was freaked out about the events that were happening during spider-men it stands to reason his spider-sense wouldn't be as sharp which explains why he was taken by surprise so easily during that fight. This wont happen with T'challa.

Really this panel pretty much sums up the context of the fight:

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  1. Peter was freaked out about being in another universe and was spending the whole fight trying to figure out what was happening.
  2. He stated he was off his game during the fight.
  3. He said he felt fluish.
  4. Peter says if he turned Miles into a spider themed kid street pizza he will never forgive himself. Clearly he didn't want to hurt Miles.

T'challa is more ruthless than Peter is. While he isn't going to kill Miles or cripple him or anything like that, he isn't going to show the restraint Peter showed above, and he is less likely to let his guard down than Peter did which was his mistake. So I'll leave it to you to show what other showings Miles has against opponents that are similar to T'challa that Miles has performed well against.

In Conclusion

The starting distance means that T'challa can turn this into a melee fight immediately and that is a fight T'challa is going to win. I proved above he is faster than Miles, and its a no brainier he is more skilled and experienced so he clearly has the advantage in a close combat fight. Miles has never faced anyone with the established skill that T'challa possesses whereas T'challa has faced off against spider-man before and does have some respectable showings against him, but in addition he has had spider-powers before. This gives him a better idea of what to expect. The only things Miles has that are different than Peter are camouflage, which is an ability which is useless against T'challa, and his venom sting but with T'challa putting pressure on Miles he isn't going to get the opportunity to use it.

T'challa simply cannot lose in a melee fight with Miles.

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#24 Posted by LlehDevil (7259 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#25 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: oh man, this is going to be another debate of Miles vs Peter becuase I think the fight was as even as it could get. Now I have to counter all that only for you to try and water it down which will make up most of this debate :)

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#26 Posted by jashro44 (52000 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: oh man, this is going to be another debate of Miles vs Peter becuase I think the fight was as even as it could get. Now I have to counter all that only for you to try and water it down which will make up most of this debate :)

Well that is why I gave it its own section. Hopefully we can focus on the actual fight. But yea I knew you were going to bring up the fight.

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#27 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Alright, first I will address counters to your post, as many things you started off with pretty much is what I need to touch on anyway. Then I will add on other factors pro Miles.

Miles Speed and Spider-sense VS T'challa's skill

I think it goes without saying that most voters at first glance think Miles has the edge here due to his on paper stats. But I am going to say no. Something a lot of people forget is while Miles has improved since his early days he is still just a kid. He doesn't have as much experience as other heroes in marvel. And because of T'challa's experience it isn't impossible to believe that T'challa is faster and more efficient than Miles.

These scans are from the recent Spidey series, which is a series which follows a younger spider-man (Peter is probably about as experienced and skilled as Miles is currently in this series). In the scans there are two very big things to note:

  1. Peter says Black Panther is faster than he is. In fact T'challa is moving so fast that Peter begins asking him questions like if he was bitten by a radioactive panther! So this alone shows T'challa has the speed and skill to keep up with people with spider-powers. Peter is literally awe-struck by the way T'challa blitzes those thugs to the point he has to remind himself to "inner-monologue".
  2. Peter comments that not only is T'challa fast but he appears to have an ability that is like spider-sense only better because its faster and more intuitive. T'challa explains that he can sense where his enemies are about to strike before they do because he "listens to his surroundings".

Now I don't think T'challa is faster than current Peter Parker. But the point of these scans is that despite Miles having spider-powers that doesn't automatically make him faster than T'challa. Even his spider-sense isn't an advantage because T'challa's awareness, instincts,

OK, first mistake, you compared Peter to Miles as being the same at the same ages. First off, Peter and Miles share the same powers, and thats it. The origins and how the powers work are very different my mate. Peter was bitten by a radioactive Spider. Miles was bitten by a OZ formula Spider. Oz Formula that granted Miles Venom Sting, Cloak, and the rest of the power set, as well possibly Immortality like Peter and Goblin. So why should Miles be same level as 1960s-1970s Peter? He should not be. Miles is physically better and dealt with way bigger threats than 616 young Peter has as well. So apples to oranges. Lets compare strictly speed feats than ABC logic.

So with that out of the way I hope people take the idea of T'challa being faster than Miles more seriously. Because I do honestly believe T'challa has better speed feats than Miles. We'll start with this feat of T'challa dodging iron fists attacks while under water:

I uploaded the script of the issue to verify that T'challa was indeed dodging iron fists punches. But what makes this feat even more impressive is the fact that while under water iron fist was throwing punches faster than eyes can track and was described as "at best an abstract blur". Logically both T'challa and iron fist would only be much faster while on land. Miles has never to my knowledge displayed combat speed at this level. He's never fought as a blur or faster than eyes can track let alone while in an environment which would hinder his movements.

Better Speed Feats eh? "cough cough, bullshit". Lets really touch on the speed feats themselves. That feat underwater is damn good. Still though, is BP faster than Captain America? No. Faster than Wolverine? No. Faster than Spider people? Not at all. Its a good high end, but not consistent to say he is faster than Miles.

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Miles in a tight space of the F4 Baxter Building dodges and avoids dozens of 616 Reed Erbies. Each one with serious accuracy as we seen from Reed's CPU creations, especially the chief security that protects his family. Even Superior Spider Man was hard pressed and he had more room than Miles did.

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Miles stated as plain as day by the super genius of reliable information himself, Tony. Miles is Microsecond in reaction time. Seriously, thats better than any stated feat for BP. Your best stated feat is a kid Peter still learning his powers, and never tested to his limits commenting on BP from his point of view. Mine is the go to reliable genius himself who knows Miles abilities, and stated speed feat which is insane good.

Another good speed feat for T'challa would be one shotting Karnak. This also doubles as a good skill feat for T'challa seeing how he managed to lay him out in one strike:

I also count this as a speed feat as well as a skill feat since Karnak stated T'challas speed gave him an edge:

And I am willing to argue that Karnak is faster than Miles considering Karnak was able to casually cut a bullet in half with his finger:

Plus Karnak has the benefit of having actual martial arts training. And yet T'challa straight up fodderized him.

More ABC Logic eh? Well I can play that game too.

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Miles blitzing faster than 616 Jean Grey actively scanning her surroundings. Same Jean who detects and shut down guys like Quicksilver. Yet Miles is a blur to her and shocks her while she is scanning her surroundings.

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Miles here again out reacts, and out speeds the Ultimate Tony Warmachines targeting CPUs and massive gun fire with ease.

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Miles here blitzes multiple Doombots, two Spider enhance criminals that speed wise match Ultimate Spider Woman, and Dr Doom himself. Im sorry, I am having a difficult time seeing this whole ABC logic working out for BP being faster. He may be fast enough, but Miles clearly holds the Spider edge in speed.

I also would like to add that Miles has never faced someone who has skill established to be as good as black panther's. And Miles has been challenged by certain martial artists:

  • His first fight with prowler Miles did have some problems. He was tagged before he immbolized Prowler. Yes Miles was less experienced than he is now but the showing still happened.
  • His fight with batroc. Miles got tagged here as well due to batroc's greater fighting skills and only won when Batroc got distracted.
  • Against Ultimate Crossbones during all new ultimate's. IIRC Crossbones nearly defeated Miles.

Now you can argue that Miles has improved since these showings but the fact of the matter is that Miles has no other fights against a skilled martial artists. So there is no reason to assume that T'challa's fighting skills wont give Miles grief. Oh and I know your going to claim that batroc is super human in the ultimate universe but even assuming he has super human reflexes so does T'challa. So it wouldn't matter.

But to reiterate the main take away from these examples is Miles doesn't have the greatest track record against skilled fighters.

What skilled fighters you base this on btw? The only downplaying arguments you can bring up is Batroc who has some degree of super stats, but Miles NEVER took the fight serious, nor was ever in danger of losing. So not a great example. However I can cite Ultimate Task Master was stated and shown to be very skilled. Even taking down Ultimate Wolverine off panel. His powers also made the feat more impressive as Task Master absorbs the powers of others Rogue style. He had double the Spider stats of Jessica and Miles, as well Boom Boom powers. Even absorbing the Venom Sting. Yet with all these stats and skills, he was unable to take down Miles and Jessica. More so Miles as Jessica was incap half the fight. There is also the Prowler fight both times. Prowler is a skilled human and fighter. The worlds best thief. He was skilled enough to take utilize, and take down Scorpion, and his whole gang with the Tinkerer toys too boot. When facing Miles both time, going all out Miles handle him easy. Miles was holding back too, and at his most least experience during this. So the poor track record vs skilled people does not hold up. Miles has dealt with decently skilled, though not on BP level, they are still skilled. They also all have super stats and powers. Miles still handled them.

Now skill is a factor, no doubt. However, just like when Young Peter fought Wolverine the first time, the skilled guy who would beat BP did not take down the inexperience Peter at all now did he?

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Add to all this, Miles receive training from the Ultimates to fight, and operate on the front lines of wars. Miles has way more experience and skill than the inexperience Peter facing Wolverine scenario, and BP is not going to simply outclass via skill. Its your strongest argument minus, the Energy Daggers usefulness, but not the end all be all when BP is outclass in stats, and Miles has decent experience already.

Addressing Miles Fight With Spider-man

Me and you have debated this fight so many times I figured you were going to bring it up so I decided to devote an entire section of our debate to it. Because we are probably going to run through this fight.

http://imgur.com/a/x6lsf

I think the first point to bring up is that Peter was clearly holding back and during the fight he wasn't utilizing his agility like he normally does in a fight. Basically he didn't bring his A-game to the fight. The second point I will bring up is that when Peter entered the ultimate universe he claimed that he felt fluish when he entered the ultimate universe. Peter comments that when he enters the ultimate universe he has the shakes:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Additionally Peter stated during the fight that he was freaked out. And as I have explained to you before Peter's mental and physical condition do affect his spider-sense:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  1. In the first scan SpOck says that he wasn't concentrating on using his powers and that his mind overriding his body is still a problem.
  2. In the next two scans Peter while tired and thinking about how to patch things up with Aunt May gets taken by surprise because he "was to caught up within his own thoughts" and didn't notice his spider-sense buzzing.

So because Peter was in a mental state where he was freaked out about the events that were happening during spider-men it stands to reason his spider-sense wouldn't be as sharp which explains why he was taken by surprise so easily during that fight. This wont happen with T'challa.

Really this panel pretty much sums up the context of the fight:

  1. Peter was freaked out about being in another universe and was spending the whole fight trying to figure out what was happening.
  2. He stated he was off his game during the fight.
  3. He said he felt fluish.
  4. Peter says if he turned Miles into a spider themed kid street pizza he will never forgive himself. Clearly he didn't want to hurt Miles.

T'challa is more ruthless than Peter is. While he isn't going to kill Miles or cripple him or anything like that, he isn't going to show the restraint Peter showed above, and he is less likely to let his guard down than Peter did which was his mistake. So I'll leave it to you to show what other showings Miles has against opponents that are similar to T'challa that Miles has performed well against.

Well nothing you said is wrong, except a few key details on Miles part that makes the Miles vs Peter fight a good showing for Miles.

First off BP is not faster and nothing you showed will prove this compared to Miles feats.

Secondly, Miles was off his game as well. Miles stated he was freaking out as well.

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He was so mentally shock at Peter being alive, Ultimate Peter that is. On top of this Miles has NO COMBAT experience really at this point. He was still super raw in the fighting, and yet he seems to handle being "freaked out" seeing his dead idol back to life better than Peter meeting another Spider Being lol. Peter even attacks first, catching Miles off gaurd, and Miles still reacted, dodge, and counter with that magical Venom Sting.

Next, lets discuss the BS nature of the fluish argument. You yourself shot yourself down on this in another thread.

@jashro44 said:
@sirfizzwhizz said:
@jashro44 said:
@sirfizzwhizz said:

@jashro44: Its funny, Miles did not feel sick at all when he crossed into 616 several times with the same portal tech. Still inconsistent, and shoots down the theory Spider man was sick when fighting Miles unless we want to say Miles has a better healing Factor.

Well Peter ended up there because Mysterio shot the machine. Pretty sure when Miles went there it wasn't an accident so maybe thats why?

Seriously mate, this observation is so vague and such a opinion, it should not be factored at all in a logical debate. If crossing over through a portal 616 has makes you sick, then Miles should have been affected every time through the same Mysterio made portal, and never was. If Spider Man has a healing factor as good as some ignorantly claim, then he would recover from being sick.

I did say he was sick for unexplained reasons when he crossed over into the ultimate universe. The portal was unstable when Peter crossed through it which is likely why he felt sick. Miles crossed portals and fought Mysterio who also crossed the portal (in fact Mysterio crossed the portal twice at this point IIRC) so they both would have been fluish and affected in the same way.

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Again I don't know why Peter got sick going through the portal but he flat out said he felt fluish and was freaking out as a side effect of going through the portal earlier.

So as said between you and myself, feeling fluish was a symptom that happens to anyone crossing said portals across universes, and guess what? Miles crossed over twice and was pretty much fine. So the feeling was not that big of a deal as your making it to be. More like Bendis trying to make a excuse, but really did not think it through half way through, and change his own rules for Miles. Even if we want to say Peter was freak out and fluish, does it matter that much? Peter has been through WAY WORSE than that and come out on top.

Lastly the argument of Peter holding back.... and Miles was not?! Miles held back the whole fight, and never wanted to harm Peter either. Giving him a light Venom Sting at the start, and then really letting loose when desperate. nailing Peter both times.

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This sounds like Miles all out anymore than Peter? Nope.

So to conclude the facts, Spider Man was not 100%. But was he reasonably 50%? Oh yeah, and honestly 50% Peter is still super skilled, super experience, and has better suppose stats in all areas. Yet a freaked out, inexperience Miles still won do to his own stats, and the secrete weapon of his additional Powers that really screwed Peter in a random fight. BP is not facing a more harden, experience, and stronger Miles than a say 50% Peter did. Also that damn Venom Sting is a wild card that BP has no clue about.

Addressing Miles Venom Sting, Camouflage, and Webbing!

Alright so next up is to address webbing and other advantages Miles normally has against other characters. I'll start off by addressing camouflage and just say that T'challa has enhanced senses on par with wolverine, and recently he has displayed the ability to track people's souls as well:

Really there is nothing to say here. Miles cannot hide from T'challa at all.

Agreed. Though hitting something you cannot see is harder than hitting what you can. At best a distraction.

Moving on the next factor I will address is webbing. Miles isn't very accurate with his webbing. He can use his webbing in large quantities but he doesn't do that in character during his actual fights.

Oh really? He done this a few times in "actual" fights.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

See that? Thats him in dangerous situations where others are trying to harm him. Fights. I see no reason for him not to here if he really feels BP is dodging his webbing.

However assuming that Miles does randomly decide to fire his webbing in large quantities its not a big deal because I would argue T'challa has a good chance of escaping webbing by using energy daggers:

Here T'challa is being restrained by a skrull and he uses his energy daggers to deaden every nerve in the skrulls body. Notice how when T'challa is wrapped up there is a glow which indicates area of effect. This means that T'challa can simply burn his way out of Miles webbing if he does get some how restrained.

Its hard to prove they will burn the webbing. I know last argument of these daggers was they are energy daggers with intangible properties. All you showed was the daggers going intangible through Super Skrull to reach and attack the nerves. Any feats of them burning anything?

Admittedly you can argue cutting out, but that is timely procedure. With a Spider speed being packing 10+ ton blows, not a good thing to waste time on.

Now moving on to what is the biggest problem in this debate which is the venom sting. Miles can either use the venom sting by touching T'challa or by conducting it through the ground. Now I think the easiest way for T'challa to counter the latter method is just to pressure Miles in melee. What I mean is that if T'challa is attacking Miles, Miles is going to have to focus on not getting tagged by T'challa's energy daggers and he isn't going to get the chance to make contact with the ground to conduct his venom sting. I've already proven above that T'challa has more than the speed and skill necessary to keep the pressure up.

Nice theory, but one huge whole. Miles durability is insane high. I see no reason he cannot tank a few blows from the energy daggers just to get in the one hit KO Venom Sting. I see no reason Miles skill backed by webbing options to the face and body at that range to not allow Miles to beat non vibranium Panther into a KO, if not hit with a Venom Sting yet again. Miles has more in this fight than relying on energy daggers and skill. A lot more. Spider Sense, Webbing, Strength, Durability, and Venom Sting.

Additionally they only start 20 feet apart. So they already begin close up to begin with and I doubt Miles is going to open up with the venom sting. So Miles is going to have to go hand to hand with T'challa and he will lose for reasons stated above:

T'challa is faster than Miles

Not at all.

He is a more skilled martial artists

Yes, and this never stop Miles before, Ultimate Peter before, or younger and weaker kid Peter either. Add to this Miles has official training from the Ultimates, and much combat experience.

Miles spider-sense doesn't make up for his lack of skill against T'challa considering T'challa's own awareness and instinct (remember Peters comments that T'challa appears to have a better version of his spider-sense above).

I fail to see why a faulty kid Peter's view point matters when applied to Miles. Kid Peter is not only different in power level and scope, but kid Peter is also faulty in his view point. Not that it matters, 616 Iron Man oponion and statements > inexperience kid 616 Peter view point.

Even Miles damage output isn't an advantage on account of T'challa's energy daggers.

I disagree, as my next post will touch on the better durability and strength Miles has to win this fight.

So T'challa will beat Miles down every time in a melee encounter.

He could if Miles never uses his powers. Good thing Miles uses and abuses his webs, venom sting, and spider abilities.

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#28 Posted by deactivated-5a794b61068b8 (7203 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#31 Posted by jashro44 (52000 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz:

Better Speed Feats eh? "cough cough, bullshit". Lets really touch on the speed feats themselves. That feat underwater is damn good. Still though, is BP faster than Captain America? No. Faster than Wolverine? No.

These are all subjective claims. None of this is factual. I don't need to prove black panther is faster than any of these people. But I may as well humor you:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Both captain america and wolverine have commented on black panthers speed. I could easily argue T'challa being faster than them if I have to. We can derail this challenge a viner and bring cap and wolverine into the debate if you want but I would rather focus on what black panther and Miles have done and accomplished.

Faster than Spider people? Not at all. Its a good high end, but not consistent to say he is faster than Miles.

Well I did post scans of a younger Peter claiming T'challa is faster than he is. Why can't T'challa be faster than some spider-people? And I already stated that T'challa is faster than Miles (he is). So yea T'challa is faster than certain spider-people, not all, but a few of them. As for the feat of T'challa and iron fist fighting faster than eyes can track while under water being inconsistent I think I have shown T'challa's speed is consistently at that level. So far your mostly just name dropping.

Miles in a tight space of the F4 Baxter Building dodges and avoids dozens of 616 Reed Erbies. Each one with serious accuracy as we seen from Reed's CPU creations, especially the chief security that protects his family. Even Superior Spider Man was hard pressed and he had more room than Miles did.

Well SpOCK was taken by surprise in these scans. I don't think the Herbes have notable accuracy feats to my knowledge. Its a good feat but I am not convinced this makes Miles faster than T'challa.

Miles stated as plain as day by the super genius of reliable information himself, Tony. Miles is Microsecond in reaction time. Seriously, thats better than any stated feat for BP. Your best stated feat is a kid Peter still learning his powers, and never tested to his limits commenting on BP from his point of view. Mine is the go to reliable genius himself who knows Miles abilities, and stated speed feat which is insane good.

Alright. Rereading the scan I think the micro second feat has been misinterpreted. What iron man is saying is that they need to time there plan to the last microsecond, not necessarily that Miles needs to attach and destroy the artifacts within a micro second. Just that there time and coordinate there plan down to the last microsecond. Daredevil has been doing this since the 60's:

No Caption Provided

Iron fist also has a similar feat that gets misinterpreted the same way Miles feat does. But the point is there is a difference between timing and reacting. All though Miles has never shown this level of precision during a fight. We could also assume that Miles reacting within a microsecond is hyperbole but I think what I said above makes sense.

Its still a good feat for miles because Tony needed his speed but Miles doesn't react in microseconds. No street leveler does. If they did they would perceive seconds as days (IIRC one second would be like 11 days), and unlike characters like flash and superman they don't have the ability to slow down there perceptions. It doesn't make sense to assume any street leveller can react that fast.

Also you say Peter never tested his limits at the time he commented on T'challa's speed but that isn't true. Peter isn't the vetran hero he becomes later but he wasn't a rookie at the time either. If anything Peter would know more about his own capabilities than Iron man would about Miles who he never met prior to that arc.

Miles blitzing faster than 616 Jean Grey actively scanning her surroundings. Same Jean who detects and shut down guys like Quicksilver. Yet Miles is a blur to her and shocks her while she is scanning her surroundings.

First of all this version of Jean has not fought quicksilver to my knowledge. When beast plucked the X-men from the time stream there is no proof they had yet to encounter quick silver to my knowledge and she never encountered him after being plucked. I could be wrong but this sounds like more name dropping.

Secondly in that scan Jean is flying up to a higher vantage point and while she is flying Miles zooms by her. You can see Miles comes from behind her and ends up in front of her so its not surprising she couldn't react because she wasn't expecting him or looking at him initially. And Miles is obviously not faster than someone like quicksilver who can run half way across the planet in 92 seconds.

Now it is still a great feat since Miles moved as a blur, I already proved T'challa can exceed that feat. Hell I can show T'challa moving as a white steak:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

So even baring this feat in mind T'challa still exceeds it.

Miles here again out reacts, and out speeds the Ultimate Tony Warmachines targeting CPUs and massive gun fire with ease.

Not really a big deal. Karnak was dodging around Tony's repulsor blasts in the recent civil war comic that came out this week. Likewise in the issue of spidey before spider-man said black panther was faster than him he dodged several missiles from iron man:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Yet T'challa has proven to be faster than this version of spider-man and Karnak.

Miles here blitzes multiple Doombots, two Spider enhance criminals that speed wise match Ultimate Spider Woman, and Dr Doom himself. Im sorry, I am having a difficult time seeing this whole ABC logic working out for BP being faster. He may be fast enough, but Miles clearly holds the Spider edge in speed.

I guess you could say Miles blitzed the doom bots. But I don't see why that is so impressive. T'challa blitzes fodder regularly. He didn't blitz the spider-enhanced thugs. He defeated them which is a great showing but he never actually blitzed them. If your saying just fighting them makes Miles faster than T'challa than I obviously disagree. I've already shown T'challa fighting people like Karnak, iron fist, and I referenced him fighting spider-man.

So far based on showings I don't see why Miles is faster. His best speed feat so far seems to be moving as a blur. T'challa has exceeded this multiple times. I've posted T'challa and iron fist fighting faster than eyes can track while under water. I've shown T'challa moving as a white streak (which is pretty insane if you think about it since his costume is black). I've shown Karnak dodging iron mans repulsors and cutting a bullet in half casually, and than I showed Karnak admitting T'challa is even faster than he is (which is why T'challa beat him so easily).

I only posted the scans of a young Peter Parker (who honestly has speed feats on par with Miles), stating T'challa was faster than he is to dispel the notion that having spider-powers automatically makes you faster than someone like black panther.

What skilled fighters you base this on btw? The only downplaying arguments you can bring up is Batroc who has some degree of super stats, but Miles NEVER took the fight serious, nor was ever in danger of losing. So not a great example.

I'm not sure what you mean by Miles never took the fight seriously. Miles has never been a super serious character like batman. Its not like hie was toying with batroc. Miles didn't act differently in that fight than how he acts in 90% of his fights. Also you say Miles was never in danger of losing but that was mostly due to his durability, which is less of an issue with T'challa since he has his energy daggers here anyways.

http://imgur.com/a/JH3x6

However I can cite Ultimate Task Master was stated and shown to be very skilled. Even taking down Ultimate Wolverine off panel. His powers also made the feat more impressive as Task Master absorbs the powers of others Rogue style. He had double the Spider stats of Jessica and Miles, as well Boom Boom powers. Even absorbing the Venom Sting. Yet with all these stats and skills, he was unable to take down Miles and Jessica. More so Miles as Jessica was incap half the fight.

Taskmaster was beating the trio of Jessica, Miles, and Bombshell. Cloak ended up defeating ultimate taskmaster. Also you say that taskmaster defeat wolverine off panel, but he never said that. He said "I should have learned my lesson from that thing with wolverine in Kuwait. Never mess around with you power types." Its pretty vague what that means but to me it sounds like wolverine bested taskmaster if anything. We obviously don't know for sure.

Miles doesn't have back up here. Also I don't think taskmaster in the ultimate universe is much of a martial artist. He relied entirely on his weapons and absorbing there powers. He didn't really display any martial prowess and nothing really suggests he is a martial artist. Yea he fought wolverine but we have no idea what happened or what the circumstances were other than taskmaster apparently didn't shoot him in the head which cost him.

There is also the Prowler fight both times. Prowler is a skilled human and fighter. The worlds best thief. He was skilled enough to take utilize, and take down Scorpion, and his whole gang with the Tinkerer toys too boot. When facing Miles both time, going all out Miles handle him easy. Miles was holding back too, and at his most least experience during this. So the poor track record vs skilled people does not hold up. Miles has dealt with decently skilled, though not on BP level, they are still skilled. They also all have super stats and powers. Miles still handled them.

Prowler had his weapons when he fought scorpion IIRC. I'm talking about strictly hand to hand. Prowler is trained but he isn't as well trained or skilled as some one like black panther. And prowler did challenge him which is the point even though he lost. I wont focus on this example since as you said Miles wasn't totally experienced. But I also brought up ultimate crossbones:

The first fight they had crossbones takes the edge. The fight is interrupted by bombshell however.

http://imgur.com/a/G0ykq

Again in the second fight:

http://imgur.com/a/EnYi7

Also I will add in Miles recent fight with Bucky, where Miles had some good moments but was seemingly outclassed once Bucky worked around his stealth:

http://imgur.com/a/YNFD2

So there is consistency in Miles struggling with skilled martial artists and not really being able to adapt to that kind of threat. So what skilled fighters has Miles really beaten that have established feats? Does Miles really have the relevant experience to take T'challa on? The purpose here isn't to low ball Miles and just say he sucks. I just want to outline that when Miles does fight regular humans with skill they have shown they can challenge him. You can argue that Ultimate Crossbones' showings against Miles are just feats for him however the question becomes who has Miles fought that has skill comparable to T'challa?

In order to debunk this argument you need to show Miles beating an opponent with established martial arts skill at the level of black panther.

Now skill is a factor, no doubt. However, just like when Young Peter fought Wolverine the first time, the skilled guy who would beat BP did not take down the inexperience Peter at all now did he?

  1. Again wolverine beating T'challa is subjective. Depending on gear T'challa can take wolverine. Wolverine isn't factually more skilled. This is another blanket statement.
  2. Miles isn't Peter. There feats should remain mutually exclusive.

Add to all this, Miles receive training from the Ultimates to fight, and operate on the front lines of wars. Miles has way more experience and skill than the inexperience Peter facing Wolverine scenario, and BP is not going to simply outclass via skill. Its your strongest argument minus, the Energy Daggers usefulness, but not the end all be all when BP is outclass in stats, and Miles has decent experience already.

Well OK he's received combat training from the ultimate's. Has Miles actually applied this training to a fight?

Well nothing you said is wrong, except a few key details on Miles part that makes the Miles vs Peter fight a good showing for Miles.

First off BP is not faster and nothing you showed will prove this compared to Miles feats.

Secondly, Miles was off his game as well. Miles stated he was freaking out as well.

He was so mentally shock at Peter being alive, Ultimate Peter that is. On top of this Miles has NO COMBAT experience really at this point. He was still super raw in the fighting, and yet he seems to handle being "freaked out" seeing his dead idol back to life better than Peter meeting another Spider Being lol. Peter even attacks first, catching Miles off gaurd, and Miles still reacted, dodge, and counter with that magical Venom Sting.

I would say that I have shown black panther being faster than Miles but we can debate that above. As for the rest of what you said, even if I do acknowledge what your saying....Your left with a fight where neither combatant was serious. Basically the equivalent of a sparring session. So it still wouldn't be indicative of Miles being comparable to Peter.

Next, lets discuss the BS nature of the fluish argument. You yourself shot yourself down on this in another thread.

I think its a little unfair that you are holding me to something I said like 2-6 months ago in a different thread. All though reading my comment I did mention that Peter cross the portal when it was unstable whereas this wasn't the case when Miles crossed through. So that could be one reason.

The other reason could be that Miles didn't do anything that was actually taxing or would have required any significant effort. He fought mysterio but mysterio had also crossed the portal (one extra time than Miles did) so he would have suffered the same side effects.

So as said between you and myself, feeling fluish was a symptom that happens to anyone crossing said portals across universes, and guess what? Miles crossed over twice and was pretty much fine. So the feeling was not that big of a deal as your making it to be.

Well the reason I bring up Peter being fluish is mostly to do with it throwing off his spider-sense. I've already established Peter's mental and physical state affects his spider-sense.

More like Bendis trying to make a excuse, but really did not think it through half way through, and change his own rules for Miles.

Wouldn't this just add to my point? I mean I'm not responsible for Bendis writing. All I can do is talk about what happened in the story. Regardless I think the reason why Miles didn't seem fluish was because the portal was stable in issue 5. I mean Peter got sent through the portal because Mysterio shot the portal, and the portal sucked Peter in, where as Miles didn't get sucked in, he just walked through.

No Caption Provided

So really it could just be the fact they crossed the portal in different ways which I think makes the most sense. So it might not be the fact Peter crossed the portal so much as it was the way he crossed the portal. That is my guess. I mean when Peter was sucked through it looked like a vortex, but that wasn't the case when Miles crossed through. I have a comparison above.

Even if we want to say Peter was freak out and fluish, does it matter that much? Peter has been through WAY WORSE than that and come out on top.

Again I am not saying it was some serious crippling pain or anything like that. The point is these factors would have affected his spider-sense and probably his thinking. I mean daredevil beat Peter under similar conditions during the Jean Dewolf saga, and the only difference was Peter was actually enraged when he fought daredevil and wasn't holding back nearly as much as he was against Miles.

Lastly the argument of Peter holding back.... and Miles was not?! Miles held back the whole fight, and never wanted to harm Peter either. Giving him a light Venom Sting at the start, and then really letting loose when desperate. nailing Peter both times. So to conclude the facts, Spider Man was not 100%. But was he reasonably 50%? Oh yeah, and honestly 50% Peter is still super skilled, super experience, and has better suppose stats in all areas. Yet a freaked out, inexperience Miles still won do to his own stats, and the secrete weapon of his additional Powers that really screwed Peter in a random fight. BP is not facing a more harden, experience, and stronger Miles than a say 50% Peter did.

Again it was basically the equivalent of a sparring session...Why should that be impressive? Characters spar with each other all the time and it doesn't really reflect serious combat. Peter never got desperate like Miles did, and Miles only beat Peter when he got desperate.

Also that damn Venom Sting is a wild card that BP has no clue about.

Even if Miles does get a chance to use it with black panther pressuring him, he probably will hold back. Regular humans have been able to endure it before for this reason.

Agreed. Though hitting something you cannot see is harder than hitting what you can. At best a distraction.

Well that is the thing. T'challa will see him. You'll notice in the scan I posted above T'challa is perceiving people has purple. Miles can't hide his body on a mystical plane and T'challa seems to be able to perceive into a mystical plane which appears to be what allows him to track people's souls currently.

Oh really? He done this a few times in "actual" fights.

See that? Thats him in dangerous situations where others are trying to harm him. Fights. I see no reason for him not to here if he really feels BP is dodging his webbing.

Well something all these examples have in common is there against groups of enemies at a time. It doesn't look like Miles does this against individual enemies. Also in one of those scans Miles appears to mind control when he webs up Sam and Mrs.Marvel so Miles wasn't in character in that scan.

So I stand by the fact that Miles is unlikely to use webbing against black panther here.

Its hard to prove they will burn the webbing. I know last argument of these daggers was they are energy daggers with intangible properties. All you showed was the daggers going intangible through Super Skrull to reach and attack the nerves. Any feats of them burning anything?

Admittedly you can argue cutting out, but that is timely procedure. With a Spider speed being packing 10+ ton blows, not a good thing to waste time on.

Well energy daggers are basically energy that is in the form of a blade. I assume the heat is what makes them so sharp, basically its kind of like a light saber:

No Caption Provided

So cutting through steel with zero effort is pretty good. I think that should be good enough to cut/burn his way out of Miles webbing even if T'challa does get webbed.

Nice theory, but one huge whole. Miles durability is insane high. I see no reason he cannot tank a few blows from the energy daggers just to get in the one hit KO Venom Sting.

Well T'challa will probably use his daggers on stun admittedly, but does Miles have feats of enduring electricity? Shouldn't the electric shock cause his muscles to seize up and let T'challa continue hitting him if need be?

I see no reason Miles skill backed by webbing options to the face and body at that range to not allow Miles to beat non vibranium Panther into a KO,

I don't see Miles beating black panther even if he did web him up. Miles isn't that ruthless.

if not hit with a Venom Sting yet again.Miles has more in this fight than relying on energy daggers and skill. A lot more. Spider Sense, Webbing, Strength, Durability, and Venom Sting.

Yes but T'challa has speed, skill, experience, tactical ability, and is also a much more serious and focused minded combatant in character. Miles might have the physicals and the cool powers but T'challa has all the advantages in terms of mind set.

Yes, and this never stop Miles before, Ultimate Peter before, or younger and weaker kid Peter either. Add to this Miles has official training from the Ultimates, and much combat experience.

As I've shown above, martial arts skill has stopped Miles before.

I fail to see why a faulty kid Peter's view point matters when applied to Miles. Kid Peter is not only different in power level and scope, but kid Peter is also faulty in his view point.

Why is his view point faulty?

Not that it matters, 616 Iron Man oponion and statements > inexperience kid 616 Peter view point.

I addressed this above. Its probably more about timing than it is reactions.

I disagree, as my next post will touch on the better durability and strength Miles has to win this fight.

T'challa has beaten people with comparable strength and durability such as M'baku.

He could if Miles never uses his powers. Good thing Miles uses and abuses his webs, venom sting, and spider abilities.

Its not about miles not making the choice to use his advantages its about T'challa pressuring Miles so he can't.

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#32 Posted by jashro44 (52000 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: No idea if you are still interested or not but I figured I would get a response up anyways.

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#33 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I'm still interested, it will be a slow burn though. I will a response in a few days.

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#34 Posted by lubub55 (12877 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Where did you find a comic script?

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#35 Posted by jashro44 (52000 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55 said:

@jashro44: Where did you find a comic script?

It came at the back of the issue for black panther 39. Since it was one of those silent month comics.

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#36 Posted by GCPD (421 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#37 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@gcpd: I dont think this will finish. I lost interest arguing Miles, and Jashro is rarely debating anymore.

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#38 Posted by GCPD (421 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by TheKinfing (11693 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Any particular reason why you lost interest on Miles?

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#40 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Any particular reason why you lost interest on Miles?

The bias against him in threads turn me off.