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#1 Edited by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio

Vs:

Rules:

In character

Win by death/Ko

Setting:

Bullseye starts at the foot of the bridge, Snake starts at the edge of the pier.

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#2 Posted by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser:

Let's get this thing started! I shouldn't have to explain to anyone how much I love Solid Snake and Metal Gear as a whole, and while I may not be the biggest fan of Bullseye ever, I have still read more than my fair share of the character and I know the extent of his capabilities well. I don't think anyone can disagree that this fight would be a hard fought and thoroughly painful experience for both parties involved, but in the end my knowledge of both characters leads me to believe that Solid Snake is capable of defeating Bullseye more often than not.

Obviously the biggest obstacle to overcome is Lester's ludicrous marksmanship. You don't need me to tell you how accurate he is, but the fact remains that peak humans of a high enough caliber are still able to overcome him. I believe that Solid Snake's combination of stealth, reflexes, pain threshold, and not to mention impressive marksmanship of his own, will be enough to defeat Bullseye.

Let's start with the fact that Snake was a bullet timer even as an old man.

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In the above cutscene Old Snake avoids assault rifle fire at 3:40, 3:50, and 3:55 despite being disoriented from a flash bang at 3:35.

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In this scene Snake dodges a rocket fuel blast from Raging Raven's jet pack, which moves at about the speed of sound, after it was blasted.

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Old Snake ducks under REX's missiles, which IIRC are faster than bullets.

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Old Snake dodges a fully charged rail gun projectile, which is at least hypersonic.

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Snake even went so far as to dodge what is later confirmed to be a laser. Not exactly an average feat but it still says a lot for how advanced the character's reflexes are supposed to be.

Now I know what you're thinking. These barrel rolls are nice, but do they really prove that Snake will be able to keep his head against Bullseye? I mean Lester isn't limited to single shots and small bursts here; he can and WILL toss out barrages of projectiles in every direction. A rail gun is fast, but it's not the same as keeping up with dozens of projectiles all at once.

In response to that, I say... You're right. I hate to say it, but Bullseye is indeed a bit too much for Old Snake. Old... Snake.

SOLID Snake however, as in, Snake before the accelerated aging, is a whole different game. Otacon speculated that the body Snake had in MGS4 was over 70 years old, and he continued to actively age as the story progressed. During this time, Snake suffered from hardened arteries, an enlarged heart, inflamed lungs, arthritis, a bad back, and far sightedness, among other things like wrinkled skin and liver spots. A common misconception is that the suit he wore enhanced his strength, but actually all it did was improve the phospholipid build up in his cells. This improved circulation and IIRC gave him energy (stay awake energy, not super strong ready to fight energy), but it didn't actually enhance his body beyond it's own normal capacity, this is stated by Otacon. Meaning that when Snake performed all those peak human+ feats, he was crippled beyond description. In his prime, Snake has the necessary feats to say he can dodge Bullseye's projectiles.

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Snake has been able to match Revolver Ocelot move for move in a prolonged shootout, a testament to both his speed and marksmanship. Ocelot is definitely a sharpshooter on par with Bullseye, as a teenager he was able to redirect lightning with his bullets and match Big Boss himself in a duel. He's only gotten better with age to the point where Nastasha Romanenko, a professional military analyst who's career revolves around studying super humans, was flabbergasted by Ocelot's abilities and stated that he wielded his gun with "diabolical powers." His almost superhuman ability to strategize and manipulate makes him a master at ricocheting shots, often doing double or even triple rebounds to nail his targets, to the point where he has quoted "I understand the bullets you see. I make them go where I want."

Yet Solid Snake dodged every shot he fired and even outmaneuvered the strategic genius by shooting a nearby steam pipe. It's that kind of adaptability and environmental use that puts Lester at a disadvantage against Snake.

Another noteworthy sharpshooter Snake has taken on is Sniper Wolf.

She's the world's greatest sniper. Not "one of the world's greatest", THE world's greatest, to the point where she was recruited by FOXHOUND for her sheer sniping abilities despite the unit being reserved for those with unique and unnatural abilities. For reference on how skilled Wolf is, Meryl is a bullet timer and could dodge rifle fire at point blank, yet Wolf tagged her three times with three shots in rapid succession, all in non-lethal areas from a distance away.

In their first encounter, Wolf ambushed Snake and Meryl, shooting Snake's weapon out of his hands and crippling Meryl before anyone knew what was happening. What happens next is a terrific display of quick thinking on Snake's part.

Pitted against the world's greatest sniper with no gear, Snake runs right towards her and throws up a flash grenade at the perfect moment.

This is a tactic that he can easily use against Bullseye.

Their next encounter is much more straight forward.

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A rifle bullet travels faster than sound so it's impossible to dodge with no warning, at 0:58 Snake is forced to take a sniper round through his shoulder, and then at 3:00 beats the world's greatest sniper at her own game in the middle of a snowstorm while she's wearing camouflage and he's wearing solid black, with no cover for him and she's hiding behind trees.

Honestly toothpick feats and all, Lester is going to be hard pressed to match that feat. Even if he is more accurate than Snake, I doubt he's a better gun fighter.

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In this clip, Snake takes on a Hind D attack helicopter all alone, with limited equipment. I must stress the fact that this isn't a canon fodder fight either, David's own brother Liquid Snake is piloting that thing, and Liquid happens to be a beyond excellent pilot. In that helicopter, he singlehandedly shot down two F-16 Fighter Jets easily, which for all intents and purposes should be impossible. The snow storm at the time was so bad that Mei Ling wondered how he was simply going to take off, let alone take on jets. Yet Liquid succeeded, even referring to the jets as simply bothersome flies. In Metal Gear REX, he even went so far as to kill the Cyborg Ninja, which is an insane showing of strategy and skill.

Now keep that in mind as you watch Snake dodge his gunfire, outracing the turret and maneuvering his body through bullets. I know Bullseye is skilled but come on, a helicopter's main turret is going to fire way faster than anything Lester can throw with his arms, and it's not like Liquid is missing since we've established how great a pilot he is. In the end, Snake gets blasted by two missiles, and not only withstands getting blown to pieces, but endures the incredible damage and accurately fires a missile into the helicopter while midair from a distance away.

In this scan Snake gets caught off guard by Vulcan Raven's cannon, but he dodges it and skillfully disappears in the process.

After sneaking around the Shaman monk and eluding his super senses, Snake secretly plants a Claymore and lures Raven right into it's path, then once it blows Snake appears right in Raven's face to finish him off, another fantastic display of strategic thinking on David's part.

We can go back and forth on speed and accuracy forever, but one thing that I don't think Bullseye has a counter for, and that puts things firmly in Snake's favor, is the soldier's tendency to rely on his brain over brute force. Almost every fight I've shown thus far involved some form of subterfuge and impressive tactics. Snake can easily beat Bullseye using the exact same method he used to beat Raven, and he can also use the same tactics he used on Wolf, and the Ocelot fight proved that he knows how to make use of the environment. Keep in mind, Solid Snake's IQ is 180. That's only a few points shy of Batman, and David's mind was tailor crafted since birth for combat. The intelligence discrepancy is massive, not that Bullseye is dumb, but Snake is one of the greatest military minds in the world. Lester also has that nasty habit of going easy on folks and making mistakes to prolong the fight; such a habit will prove fatal in this situation.

My basic strategy amounts to Snake sneaking around (I'm saving the stealth feats for next, be prepared), locating Bullseye, and if assassinating him with a rifle without ever being detected isn't an option, Snake is smart enough to make use of cover in conjunction with his speed to avoid getting tagged, relying on his bullet and missile tanking pain threshold to endure the hits that he can't dodge, and eventually ending the fight with either a well placed grenade or finding something in the environment to surprise Lester with.

Let me know if any of my images aren't showing up.

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#4 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

Solid work, Nick!

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#5 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

A Solid Snake vs Batman CAV needs to happen.

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#6 Edited by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

A Solid Snake vs Batman CAV needs to happen.

I've already had... three... lol

@nickzambuto: Great into! I'll get to this after school.

I'll be waiting ;D

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#8 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Big Boss, then?

If you seriously think Batman can handle that much testosterone than let's do it. Go ahead and make the thread whenever you're ready.

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#10 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge said:

@nickzambuto: Big Boss, then?

If you seriously think Batman can handle that much testosterone than let's do it. Go ahead and make the thread whenever you're ready.

That quick, huh? Alright, I'll respond to the my Kang CAV soon and make it.

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#11 Posted by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: hey sorry, but I'll be restricted to my phone till Wednesday. Can't respond till then.

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#12 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: hey sorry, but I'll be restricted to my phone till Wednesday. Can't respond till then.

I understand, the problem is I myself might not be around come Wednesday, so we'll see what happens.

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#13 Edited by NeonGameWave (19333 posts) - - Show Bio

This is going to rock! That opener is the perfect example of how things should be done the detail was something to behold and take notes.

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#14 Posted by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: Yes!!! I've been waiting all this time, c'mon!

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#16 Posted by Sighburr_Punk (227 posts) - - Show Bio

Good Lord, that post leaves no room for argument. But in all honesty, I would've thought Snake either way. Bullseye just seems like he'd be the level of difficulty for him as an MGS boss.

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#17 Posted by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Alright.

Bullseye

Lester(full name unknown) is by far one of the greatest assasains in the Marvel Universe. He possess inhuman accuracy with any object that can be thrown and has killed people with toothpicks easily. This guy is a living death machine.

Let's start with the fact that Snake was a bullet timer even as an old man.

Let me stop you right there.

Many people on the vine seem to be under the impression that bullet timing saves you from Bullseye. That simply moving faster than what he's tossing at you is enough. This isn't at all correct. Don't ask me how, but on a consistent basis Bullseye tags people who can react and move far faster than what he tosses at him.

Here's an example: Spider-Man. Lester's tagged him 4 times with ease.

Not only is Spider-Man faster than peak humans like Snake, but he has precog that warns him of the attempt to hit him, and somehow Bullseye bypasses ALL of this with sheer skill.

This isn't the only time he's done this. Deadpool and Daken have superhuman reflexes, but Bullseye had no issue tagging them.

Your feats from Snake are impressive as hell, but that's not and never is enough to deal with Lester. No amount of relexes or avoidance skills will help Snake here. You haven't convinced me otherwise.

We can go back and forth on speed and accuracy forever, but one thing that I don't think Bullseye has a counter for, and that puts things firmly in Snake's favor, is the soldier's tendency to rely on his brain over brute force. Almost every fight I've shown thus far involved some form of subterfuge and impressive tactics. Snake can easily beat Bullseye using the exact same method he used to beat Raven, and he can also use the same tactics he used on Wolf, and the Ocelot fight proved that he knows how to make use of the environment. Keep in mind, Solid Snake's IQ is 180. That's only a few points shy of Batman, and David's mind was tailor crafted since birth for combat. The intelligence discrepancy is massive, not that Bullseye is dumb, but Snake is one of the greatest military minds in the world. Lester also has that nasty habit of going easy on folks and making mistakes to prolong the fight; such a habit will prove fatal in this situation.

I don't agree. I don't see how Snakes smarts will help him deal with shots he simply can't avoid. I doubt anyone he's outsmarted has Lester's specific skill set, at least not to the degree he's shown. Intelligence doesn't always help in those situations. A powerless Reed Richards would be helpless against an armed man as anyone else would, if you catch my drift.

As for Bullseye playing around...he doesn't do it to everyone. Bullseye has an appreciation for reputation. He doesn't try to make a name for himself with the costume and the bizzare and terrifying methods of death out of arrogance, he does it because he wants a reputation. He finds fear of someone specific more effective than fear of the unknown.

Everyone who's ever avoided one of his shots has had a reputation of some sort, someone he thought might fufill that death wish of his. Snake to him is some nobody who he doesn't have any qualms about killing. This is what Bullseye does to nobodies:

I imagine Snake will have a similar fate.

My basic strategy amounts to Snake sneaking around (I'm saving the stealth feats for next, be prepared), locating Bullseye, and if assassinating him with a rifle without ever being detected isn't an option, Snake is smart enough to make use of cover in conjunction with his speed to avoid getting tagged, relying on his bullet and missile tanking pain threshold to endure the hits that he can't dodge, and eventually ending the fight with either a well placed grenade or finding something in the environment to surprise Lester with.

I doubt that'll work. Bullseye himself has great reflexes, and is definently a bullet timer.

1. Deflects a bullet.

2. Blitzes some wannabes and, as I showed eariler, dodges their gunfire and disarms one.

3. Dodges many shots from Cyclops, who himself has great accuracy.

4. Deflects a bullet with an extremely thin handcuff.

5. Dodges a point blank shot from Punisher, who's also an expert marksman.

You'll notice in the last two, Bullseye couldn't have done anything until AFTER the bullet was fired. He can totally react to snakes bullets once they're fired.

Also, if Snake tries for a headshot, he'll find a solid adamantium skull to have to get through. Did I mention the adamantium skeleton? He's got one of those.

"Rumor has it his skeleton is reinforced with adamantium. That blow confirmed it."

Also, If the gap between Bullseye and Snake is somehow closed, I still think Lester can win. I close quarters, he's completely DESTROYED Gambit.

So the advantage is mine because:

1. Snake can't win against Bullseye from a distance.

2. Bullseye has too fast reactions for a stealth attack from Snake.

3. I honestly think Bullseye can take this close up.

Your move.

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#18 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser:

Let me stop you right there.

Many people on the vine seem to be under the impression that bullet timing saves you from Bullseye. That simply moving faster than what he's tossing at you is enough. This isn't at all correct. Don't ask me how, but on a consistent basis Bullseye tags people who can react and move far faster than what he tosses at him.

You don't need to tell me that Bullseye has a great track record against bullet timers, however his skills are not as infallible as you might think. Bullseye has only ever tagged Spider-Man when Peter was already seriously injured and/or fatigued from a previous fight. A 100% Spider-Man has never had so much difficulty avoiding Bullseye's projectiles.

Of course injured or not injured, tagging Spider-Man is quite impressive, so I won't take that away from you. However let's not forget a certain scarlet-clad hornhead who literally makes it his job to dodge, block, and catch all of Bullseye's projectiles on a weekly basis.

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Bullseye's accuracy is clearly far from perfect, though it is about as close as you can get. I don't see how tagging Daken when he's leaning back in a chair relaxing is particularly impressive, especially when Daken was actively trying to manipulate the team and make Bullseye look crazy, so letting himself get hit would just further his own goals. The Deadpool feat is a nice ricochet, but Snake has already dodged ricochets from Revolver Ocelot, who once again is a marksman of equal caliber to Bullseye.

From In The Darkness of Shadow Moses:

We could hear the gun battle between Snake and Ocelot over the radio. Ocelot was using an antique Single Action Army revolver against Snake's SOCOM pistol. The first Single Action Army Revolver was manufactured in 1873. A small number of them are still in production today, but strictly for collectors and antique weapon fanciers; using this out- moded weapon for live combat is unheard of. But Ocelot seemed to invest the vintage gun with diabolical powers. He would purposefully fire against walls and the floor, weaving a tight web of ricocheting bullets around Snake, gradually hemming him in.

All we could do was silently monitor the battle. However, Snake was slowly but surely gaining the upper hand by dodging the ricochets and exploiting the revolver's lengthy reload window. Finally, just as Snake was about to deliver the decisive blow, an explosion rang out.

Keep in mind, not only is Ocelot skilled enough to tag Raiden, who can dodge/deflect bullets all day long, but his ricochet was precise enough to shoot Jack's gun away without injuring his hand.

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Solid Snake is a lot more sensitive and spatially aware than Deadpool, so catching him off guard with a ricochet won't be so easy. If Bullseye does manage to corner Snake in a tricky position, the soldier is agile enough to maneuver around at least a few projectiles, even without the benefit of cover.

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Snake sidesteps, backflips over, and maneuvers through gunfire, all when caught completely by surprise.

Snake and Ocelot Flip

Old Snake Roll

Even in his old age despite arthritis and a bad back, Snake maintained a level of dexterity to easily perform flips and evasive rolls on the drop of a dime.

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In this scene Snake not only avoids a tank shell, but even more impressively manages a midair recovery after being propelled by the blast and comes up unharmed.

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The gameplay doesn't really do it justice, but in this scene Solid Snake was forced to rappel down the side of a tower by rope while simultaneously evading chainguns from Liquid's helicopter, and avoiding the steam pipes. Pretty wild feat if you ask me, I don't think Daredevil could replicate this, and he always beats Bullseye.

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Even more impressive was Snake's infamous missile hop from the quasicanon Twin Snakes game. Take it with a grain of salt.

So that's just a quick tidbit on Snake's agility when it comes to avoiding projectiles, I think he is at least in league with Daredevil, which in combination with his raw reflexes, wits, and careful use of cover, I would say you'd have to be lowballing Snake pretty hard to think Bullseye can just automatically tag him.

But enough about Bullseye, let's talk about Snake. It's time for me to go on the offense. I can argue this speed feat and that speed feat all day, but it's a much more simple matter if I just focus on the fact that Bullseye will never get the chance to come at Snake in the first place, because Snake will never reveal himself. Solid Snake isn't a pseudo-stealthy character like Daredevil or Batman, he actually uses his sneaking skills in combat. After all, Metal Gear is the progenitor of stealth in modern media, so it follows suit that Solid Snake has some of the best stealth feats a guy can ask for. I honestly see no way for Bullseye around this, Snake has snuck up on characters with enhanced senses, and he's snuck up on highly trained and skilled fighters. How is Lester supposed to detect him?

The Plan

According to your setup, Snake and Bullseye begin a fair distance apart at a cluttered ship yard in the middle of the day. This is a perfect scenario for Snake, the master of infiltration. For obvious reasons, night time would make things a bit easier, but the sun is not at all a game breaker. Snake's style of sneaking revolves around cover and camouflage, not shadows.

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Read from Right to Left

Snake's infiltration of Shadow Moses Island displays this perfectly as he deftly covers a crowded base without being detected, despite the Genome Soldiers all having super human senses of vision and hearing and collectively being more skilled than the Delta Force.

Snake Stealth 1

Snake Stealth 2

Snake Stealth 3

All feats of Solid Snake vanishing/disappearing/teleporting.

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Here's a pretty stupid feat. Not only does Snake casually get within inches of Raiden without being sensed, who happens to be a bit of a stealth master himself, but when Jack turns around to face him, Snake is no where to be seen. Then Raiden says his name, and Snake materializes from thin air.

So that's already a guy with better senses and stealth skills than Bullseye, but to Snake he's just a rookie. I'm not sure how reflexes will keep Bullseye from getting snuck up on, all of Snake's weapons have suppressors on them so it's pretty much impossible for Bullseye to dodge. I admit, the adamantium skull is actually going to cause trouble. There's no reason for Snake not to go for a headshot right away, but when the bullet bounces off his head Bullseye will be alerted.

It's not a game changer though. Snake has experienced plenty of weird things in his life, and we already established he's got a good head on his shoulders. He'll just figure Lester's skull is either reinforced or just super humanly durable, and go for a softer target -- say right through his stomach. Not immediately lethal, but Bullseye will bleed out in a few minutes. Even if he knows he's being targeted, he still won't know exactly where Snake is, so dodging bullets is out of the question. I won't lowball, Bullseye has some rad speed feats, but Snake has a pretty good track record against bullet timers too. Probably better than Lester's.

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He was able to defeat Olga Gurlukovich in a shootout while armed with a mere tranquilizer gun, and simultaneously dodging and outracing gunfire from her at close range, something that I imagine would interfere with his aim.

Olga Ninja 2

Olga Ninja 1

Olga while disguised as the Cyborg Ninja casually deflects fully automatic gunfire from two assault rifles simultaneously and disappears when Raiden looks away for an instant.

I believe Olga's reflexes are at least on par with Bullseye. Her raw speed is certainly superior, but in terms of bullet timing feats their even. If you still don't believe Solid Snake can tag Bullseye though, he's also shot down Solidus Snake after a bit of back and forth.

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Now Solidus has true Cyborg Ninja speed, thanks to his exoskeleton. You can see that at 8:30 where he speedblitzes Olga leaving a trail of flames in his wake, 10:30 where he takes down three Metal Gear RAYS singlehandedly, and at 17:50 where he shields himself from RAYS turret. This guy is CERTAINLY a helluva lot faster than Bullseye - probably faster than Spider-Man too, just doesn't have the spider sense but makes up for it with super soldier combat skill and instincts. And Snake didn't need him to be injured to shoot him down, just sayin.

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Most impressive of all is Old Snake defeating Vamp after tagging him multiple times. Now this guy is a legitimate speedster, capable of deflecting fully automatic machine gun fire off a knife, slipping his body through individual bullets fired from an assault rifle, blitzing peak humans and bullet timers, running on water and straight up vertical towers, moving faster than the human brain can perceive, and dancing around Cyborg Raiden. Old Snake shot him down while simultaneously fending off his close quarters assaults.

Snake might not be the best at handling toothpicks, but you can't deny that these feats of tagging bullet timers, in addition to the feats in my previous post of stalemating Revolver Ocelot, besting Sniper Wolf, and shooting down Liquid's helicopter while sprawling through the air all make him out to be a superior marksman to Bullseye. So while you think Lester is going to have Snake on the run with his playing cards and darts, the truth is Snake will be there to match him shot for shot. I don't mean to lowball, but the only character to my knowledge whom Bullseye has ever tagged that matches up to Solidus and Vamp is Spider-Man, but Spider-Man needs to be beat up and exhausted for that. Snake meanwhile can tag these guys through sheer skill and reflexes.

I don't agree. I don't see how Snakes smarts will help him deal with shots he simply can't avoid. I doubt anyone he's outsmarted has Lester's specific skill set, at least not to the degree he's shown. Intelligence doesn't always help in those situations. A powerless Reed Richards would be helpless against an armed man as anyone else would, if you catch my drift.

I'm afraid I don't catch your drift. How can a tactical mind be anything but a major advantage in a gunfight? I get that if the skill discrepancy was gigantic, intelligence wouldn't be enough to bridge the gap, but from what I've seen Snake and Bullseye can go tit-for-tat all day long. It's David's mind that will grant him to victory eventually.

Not only is Snake more clever, but his arsenal is more diverse as well, meaning he has a plethora of options in how to deal with Bullseye. What's Lester going to do if Snake throws out a flash grenade? Or what's stopping Snake from luring Bullseye into a claymore? These are both strategies that he's already attempted, both times to much success. Or alternately Snake can spam Lester with missiles, or perhaps snipe him from afar. There's a lot Snake can do, and with the clever brain he has on his shoulders I'm sure he'll find the most effective strategy possible.

The comparison between Snake and canon fodder is nonsense, there's no way Bullseye could handle the greatest soldier of the 21st century with such ease, and if the scans are supposed to illustrate that Lester doesn't always play around with his targets, they failed, because that's exactly what he's doing with all that impractical jumping around and landing on their shoulders.

Also, If the gap between Bullseye and Snake is somehow closed, I still think Lester can win. I close quarters, he's completely DESTROYED Gambit.

Gambit's not exactly what I'd call a top tier master martial artist, and you're forgetting the fact that Remy was already exhausted before the fight began and it started with Bullseye stabbing him through the chest. All things considered, if Bullseye hadn't stomped him in that scenario it would be weird.

To be honest, I don't like Bullseye's odds going H2H against Solid Snake. He's considered the world's premier expert in close quarters combat, rivaled by only a handful of people on the entire planet and eventually even surpassing his mentor Big Boss, the man who invented CQC.

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So the advantage is mine because:

1. Snake can't win against Bullseye from a distance.

2. Bullseye has too fast reactions for a stealth attack from Snake.

3. I honestly think Bullseye can take this close up.

1. What makes you so sure of that? In a gunfight, two things are important: the speed to dodge your opponents attacks, and the skill to overcome their own speed and tag them. I feel from what's been presented here, Snake has a firm advantage in both. Just because Bullseye can kill a person with a toothpick, that doesn't make him a better marksman than someone who routinely goes up against characters with super speed and always manages to shoot them. Snake's record against bullet timers is stronger than Lester's, and his advantage when it comes to defense should be pretty clear considering he's the guy known for taking on Metal Gears.

2. The adamantium implants seem more problematic than Bullseye's reflexes. Snake has tagged characters much faster than Lester already, and he's used stealth effectively against everyone from super soldiers to shaman monks. Maybe if Snake's guns didn't have suppressors Bullseye would be able to dodge, but since they do, he has no way of avoiding.

3. You're gonna need better H2H feats than beating up a barely functioning Gambit to prove that.

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#19 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: I forgot to tell you, my post is all finished.

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#20 Posted by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio

I forgot to tell you, my post is all finished.

I saw it. I'm being lazy, but I'll finish my response at some point.

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#21 Posted by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

You don't need to tell me that Bullseye has a great track record against bullet timers, however his skills are not as infallible as you might think. Bullseye has only ever tagged Spider-Man when Peter was already seriously injured and/or fatigued from a previous fight. A 100% Spider-Man has never had so much difficulty avoiding Bullseye's projectiles.

Point, but even when at 100%, Spidey has had trouble avoiding Bullseye's shots.

"Phew, that was close". ONE throwing star almost hits Peter and he notes it was hard to dodge.

Let's look at the one other incident Peter has dealt with Bullseye's shots:

Bullseye has to compensate of the movement of fast people, not much to do when that motion covers their entire body like here.

Of course injured or not injured, tagging Spider-Man is quite impressive, so I won't take that away from you. However let's not forget a certain scarlet-clad hornhead who literally makes it his job to dodge, block, and catch all of Bullseye's projectiles on a weekly basis.

This is a result of slight CIS from Lester. He and Daredevil have outright stated if he really wanted to kill Matt, he'd be dead.

"Nah. That'd be too quick". Lester does not care about unestablished enemies and has no qualms with killing them instantly.

Keep in mind, not only is Ocelot skilled enough to tag Raiden, who can dodge/deflect bullets all day long, but his ricochet was precise enough to shoot Jack's gun away without injuring his hand.

Ocelot is certainly impressive, but not Bullseyes level. Not everyone tagging bullet timers is that good. Take Punisher for example:

Skilled enough to tag legit speedsters and even Spider-Man. Seems like Ocelots level right? Well his first fight with Bullseye shows him at a completely lesser caliber. Bullseye stomps him despite toying around in all his CIS.

Anti-bullet timing accuracy does not equate to levels of skill rivaling Bullseye. Even bullet timers have never tagged people with straws, yo-yos, guns, bullets, etc. Bullseye operates in a different level.

Solid Snake is a lot more sensitive and spatially aware than Deadpool, so catching him off guard with a ricochet won't be so easy. If Bullseye does manage to corner Snake in a tricky position, the soldier is agile enough to maneuver around at least a few projectiles, even without the benefit of cover.

I don't know about that. Bullseye's been able to both conceal himself from Daredevil and surprise him. They don't get any more aware than Daredevil, so I'm quite confident something like this will get to Snake.

Not to mention his ricochet skills are off the charts. He's pulled off a billion to one shot on a car. With a hubcap no less.

He can perfectly calculate the movement of cars. He can do the same to Snake.

I don't think Daredevil could replicate this, and he always beats Bullseye.

For one thing, Daredevil may not replicate exactly that, but he's been deflecting bullets since day one and I haven't seen Snake do that.

As for always winning, not at all. Bullseye has wins and stalemates in that area, including one notable time he completely stomped Matt.

You can see he has a chance for a kill shot on several occasions.

It's not a game changer though. Snake has experienced plenty of weird things in his life, and we already established he's got a good head on his shoulders. He'll just figure Lester's skull is either reinforced or just super humanly durable, and go for a softer target -- say right through his stomach. Not immediately lethal, but Bullseye will bleed out in a few minutes.

Snake is not familiar with the concept of metal being bonded to bone. I don't doubt that he'll figure it out, but he'll definently get a pause and give away his position, which is a possible kill moment for Bullseye.

Even then, can Snake really tag a bullet timer who has unbreakable bones and will be pelting him with projectiles he can only avoid so well(if at all). It seems like his skills are getting taxed here.

Now Solidus has true Cyborg Ninja speed, thanks to his exoskeleton. You can see that at 8:30 where he speedblitzes Olga leaving a trail of flames in his wake, 10:30 where he takes down three Metal Gear RAYS singlehandedly, and at 17:50 where he shields himself from RAYS turret. This guy is CERTAINLY a helluva lot faster than Bullseye - probably faster than Spider-Man too, just doesn't have the spider sense but makes up for it with super soldier combat skill and instincts. And Snake didn't need him to be injured to shoot him down, just sayin.

Not gonna lie, this guy doesn't impress me much. He disarmed Olga and overpowered her, which barely seems like a speedblitz. Outrunning machine gun fire is something even live action characters have done, and peak humans have deflected machine gun fire before.

if the scans are supposed to illustrate that Lester doesn't always play around with his targets, they failed, because that's exactly what he's doing with all that impractical jumping around and landing on their shoulders.

What would you expect him to do? Seems like an efficent way to get in easy range of all them.

Gambit's not exactly what I'd call a top tier master martial artist, and you're forgetting the fact that Remy was already exhausted before the fight began and it started with Bullseye stabbing him through the chest. All things considered, if Bullseye hadn't stomped him in that scenario it would be weird.

Gambit might not be top tier as far as technical skill goes, but his speed and skill have let him keep up with Daredevil in combat without a problem.

Gambit flat out admits Bullseye was his superior. That's quite impressive regardless of the circumstances.

To be honest, I don't like Bullseye's odds going H2H against Solid Snake. He's considered the world's premier expert in close quarters combat, rivaled by only a handful of people on the entire planet and eventually even surpassing his mentor Big Boss, the man who invented CQC.

This isn't very concrete. He beat someone who invented some advanced skill? Not sure what to take out of that.

Bullseye has shown the ability to beat Elektra close up. Yes he uses projectiles and collaboration with H2H, but if that's what works it works. I haven't seen H2H skills passing elektra from Snake yet.

Tagging Elektra is itself impressive considering she's blocked machine gun fire and was stated to be faster Taskmaster.

And here again. The superior is clear.

And once more.

He even tanks an arrow to the chest. Nice pain threshold there.

Your go.

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#22 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: Hey, so I'm a tad late. I don't suppose you're up for a rebuttal after this (if you are then by all means go right ahead) so if you still think Bullseye wins what do you say we agree to disagree and open this up for votes?

Point, but even when at 100%, Spidey has had trouble avoiding Bullseye's shots.

To be fair, in the first scan Bullseye attacked Spider-Man by surprise and by the time Peter's spider sense went off the throwing star was already only a few feet away. In the second scan, that's not really Spider-Man expressing difficulty in dodging, just him using the options available to him. Bullseye still failed to tag in both instances, so I'm not entirely impressed.

This is a result of slight CIS from Lester. He and Daredevil have outright stated if he really wanted to kill Matt, he'd be dead.

That scan is a bit misleading. I've read that issue, in the scene Bullseye is fantasizing about killing Daredevil from afar with a sniper rifle, which technically he can do if he wanted, but it's no indication that Bullseye goes easy on Daredevil when they fight. He knows that he doesn't need to because Matt is simply better than him just as Snake is.

Ocelot is certainly impressive, but not Bullseyes level. Not everyone tagging bullet timers is that good. Take Punisher for example:

Skilled enough to tag legit speedsters and even Spider-Man. Seems like Ocelots level right? Well his first fight with Bullseye shows him at a completely lesser caliber. Bullseye stomps him despite toying around in all his CIS.

To be fair Punisher has beaten Bullseye twice to my knowledge.

Anti-bullet timing accuracy does not equate to levels of skill rivaling Bullseye. Even bullet timers have never tagged people with straws, yo-yos, guns, bullets, etc. Bullseye operates in a different level.

Perhaps Bullseye's ability to use straws and yo-yos does technically mean that he's more skilled than Snake or Ocelot, but it doesn't change the fact that since they use guns, they are still more efficient and have the overall better feats.

I don't know about that. Bullseye's been able to both conceal himself from Daredevil and surprise him. They don't get any more aware than Daredevil, so I'm quite confident something like this will get to Snake.

Ah, point taken! Perhaps Bullseye is stealthier than I gave him credit for. However he still can't sneak up on Snake. The Soliton Radar makes that an impossibility.

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As soon as Lester gets within 20-30 feet of Snake's vicinity, Snake will know not only his exact position, but also which direction he's looking, making it very easy to sneak up on him. The idea of Bullseye being the stealth operator in this scenario is kinda silly to me, stealth is Snake's thing, so I really think Bullseye should be the one watching his back rather than Snake.

Not to mention his ricochet skills are off the charts. He's pulled off a billion to one shot on a car. With a hubcap no less.

Would you say that nailing an airborn helicopter with a rocket in the middle of a whiteout while sprawling through the air after getting hit with a missile isn't a billion to one shot? The description makes Bullseye's feat seem like more than it is, which is just an average ricochet. Don't get me wrong, it is impressive, but nothing we haven't seen already.

As for always winning, not at all. Bullseye has wins and stalemates in that area, including one notable time he completely stomped Matt.

That was with the use of a gun, which he wouldn't use against Snake as they have no prior history and Lester dislikes using guns.

For one thing, Daredevil may not replicate exactly that, but he's been deflecting bullets since day one and I haven't seen Snake do that.

Actually it's implied that Snake could deflect bullets if he wanted to, he just doesn't enjoy using swords. He's the one who taught Raiden how to do it though, so keep that in mind.

Snake is not familiar with the concept of metal being bonded to bone. I don't doubt that he'll figure it out, but he'll definently get a pause and give away his position, which is a possible kill moment for Bullseye.

That would be a rookie move, which Snake is anything but. Even if I play devil's advocate and say the bullet bouncing off would confuse him, he still wouldn't be foolish enough to expose his position just because of that. He's far too experienced.

Even then, can Snake really tag a bullet timer who has unbreakable bones and will be pelting him with projectiles he can only avoid so well(if at all). It seems like his skills are getting taxed here.

With the use of stealth I say he can. Bullseye won't know where to look in order to make a target at all.

Not gonna lie, this guy doesn't impress me much. He disarmed Olga and overpowered her, which barely seems like a speedblitz. Outrunning machine gun fire is something even live action characters have done, and peak humans have deflected machine gun fire before.

He jumped onto the scene, disarmed her and put a tentacle to her throat before she could react. You don't call that speedblitzing? He didn't just outrun machine gun fire, he was weaving through the bullets from an auto-targeting AI (artificial intelligence), and deflecting a hailstorm of high-powered rounds is indeed impressive. Deathstroke and Azrael have deflected bullets, but not nearly to that extent. And you can't deny the fact that his sprinting leaves a trail of fire in it's wake.

This isn't very concrete. He beat someone who invented some advanced skill? Not sure what to take out of that.

Not just an advanced skill, an entire fighting style that serve as the basis for all forms of combat used by the military for decades to come. Big Boss has an entire trilogy of games of his own showing how skilled a combatant he is; beating him is no joke.

Gambit might not be top tier as far as technical skill goes, but his speed and skill have let him keep up with Daredevil in combat without a problem.

Gambit flat out admits Bullseye was his superior. That's quite impressive regardless of the circumstances.

Fair enough.

Bullseye has shown the ability to beat Elektra close up. Yes he uses projectiles and collaboration with H2H, but if that's what works it works. I haven't seen H2H skills passing elektra from Snake yet.

Tagging Elektra is itself impressive considering she's blocked machine gun fire and was stated to be faster Taskmaster.

And here again. The superior is clear.

And once more.

I don't see where you get the idea that Bullseye is better than Elektra in H2H. She dominated him in their first fight, Bullseye took the upperhand with weaponry and that's it. Their second fight is a bit more in Lester's favor, but I'm curious to see what happened after that single page. Their third fight had Elektra beaten up and exhausted and she still won, so again I don't see how Bullseye is supposed to be better than her.

Snake's combat skill has allowed him to defeat Cyborg Ninjas, most notably Gray Fox, who in addition to packing supersonic speed could also bench press a 500 ton Metal Gear.

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First fight - Snake evades all of his sword strikes and stalemates him.

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Second fight (the cutscene portion of it; the majority of their battle was a boss fight but this was the ending) - Snake defeats the Ninja in H2H, seemingly with ease.

Gray Fox was also a master samurai in addition to his physical abilities.

I think that says enough on why Snake would beat Bullseye in H2H.

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#23 Posted by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: To be honest I'm not really confident Bullseye wins anymore, not to mention you basically owned me debate wise and I don't have many more scans.

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#24 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: To be honest I'm not really confident Bullseye wins anymore, not to mention you basically owned me debate wise and I don't have many more scans.

lol, it's nice hearing that, thank you. I'll just call out a couple people who might be interested.

@tparks@monsterstomp@frozen@k4tzm4n@gojira2014@darkraiden@sherlock@comicstooge@wolverine08@slimj87d@jashro44@sighburr_punk@neongamewave@thetruebarryallen A quick read would be appreciated, we've got a pretty good one over here.

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#25 Edited by Gojira2014 (2087 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice. I'll take a read later.

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#27 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump