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#1 Edited by KrleAvenger (26211 posts) - - Show Bio

Challenge - A - Viner Segment Presents:

The debate requested by The_Red_Devil, between himself (representing two members of the Annihilators, Thor's Oath Brother and equal, Beta Ray Bill, and Shi'Ar Majestor and one of Marvel's Supermen, Gladiator), and myself, KrleAvenger (representing one of Superman's rather overlooked villains, Hank Henshaw, Cybernetic and twisted version of world's greatest hero).

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The Rules

  • In Character (Morals On/Off Depending on the character)
  • Everyone has standard knowledge on one another.
  • No Prep Time or Amps. No Battle Field Removal (BFR).
  • Earth-616 Versions of Beta Ray Bill and Gladiator.
  • Post-Crisis & Rebirth Version of Hank Henshaw.
  • No Alternate Reality Feats are allowed.
  • Beta Ray Bill has Stormbreaker and Gladiator is Fully Confident.
  • No Rings, Power Battery, Special Devices or Manhunters for Hank.
  • Henshaw can not use technopathy on Beta Ray Bill.
  • Win by Death/Incap/KO.

Location

Large Empty City
Large Empty City

Voting

This is a Challenge a Viner, a special type of battle forum where two debaters can debate between each other specifically, so we would appreciate if you would not interfere with that. Please don't make us call the mods.

Please don't say who you think would win until the debate is completely over.

Ask to be tagged and you'll be reserved for voting at the end when you the debate is done. Even those who are not tagged and didn't ask to be tagged are still allowed to vote.

Keep your negative comments to yourself or at-least bring them forth when the debate is over. If one of us made a mistake bring it up but NOT BEFORE THE DEBATE IS OVER. Also please do not flood the thread with unneeded comments like talking about your own stuff or posting funny stuff unless you asked to be tagged in those comments.

Thanks for understanding and I hope you will enjoy.

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#2 Posted by KrleAvenger (26211 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16480 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn, this should be great, T4V.

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#4 Posted by WollfMyth209 (17124 posts) - - Show Bio

Oooh, t4v

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#5 Posted by Darth_Nimrod (2822 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#6 Posted by JSDoctor (1664 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#7 Posted by King-Ragnar (4485 posts) - - Show Bio

Wat

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#8 Posted by vsw (2933 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm T4V

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#9 Posted by blackpantherisb (7350 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#10 Posted by Darthjhawk (5647 posts) - - Show Bio
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This intrigues me. Tag ya boi.

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#11 Posted by Toratorn (7610 posts) - - Show Bio

So... BRB vs CS? T4V.

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#12 Posted by rahiem9123 (1575 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after every post.

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#13 Posted by Supermanthor (21831 posts) - - Show Bio

damn tav this is a big one .

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#14 Posted by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (12149 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, this is really interesting. TAEP.

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#15 Posted by KrleAvenger (26211 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by deactivated-5cc073360931e (791 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after each post

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#17 Posted by InvadedTBD (1711 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#18 Posted by APEX_pretador (21349 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after every post.

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#19 Posted by The_Red_Devil (5075 posts) - - Show Bio

Beta Ray Bill :

No Caption Provided

Bio :

The cyborg champion of the Korbinites, Beta Ray Bill guarded his people as they fled attack by demons. When he encountered Thor and proved himself worthy to wield Mjolnir, Odin bestowed upon him the powers of Thor and created for him Stormbreaker, an equally powerful hammer.

He has always been stated to be an equal to Thor in nearly all aspects.

Powers and Abilities :

  • Super Strength.
  • Super Durability.
  • Super Speed.
  • Energy/Lightning Projection.
  • Weather Manipulation.
  • Enhanced striking.

Strength / Striking :

Ever since his first appearance in Thor Vol 1 #337 , he has been stated to be an equal to Thor and Strombreaker only enhances his already impressive striking and gives him energy based abilities.

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Thor Vol 1 #337 , this was his very first appearance. He trades blows with Thor , before Thor turns back to Blake because of not having Mjolnir in hand and this is before Bill received Stormbreaker. Although Thor doesn't use Mjolnir but trading blows/holding fair with Thor is a pretty impressive showing in itself.

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Thor Vol 1 #338 , trades blows with Thor again , Bill even takes out Thor later in this fight.

It's clear from these scans that his hits were clearly able to daze Thor , Bill himself was able to tank hits from Thor and he fared well against him in terms of strength as well. This shows that even without Strombreaker he is an equal to Thor (w/o Mjolnir).

Lets look at some more feats ,

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  • Scan 1 : One-shots multiple Skrull soldiers , although he was using Mjolnir , but considering Strombreaker and Mjolnir are considered to be equals , this is a pretty impressive feat.(Secret Invasion : Thor #3).
  • Scan 2 : Engages in grapple with Stardust and then puts him in a head lock. Stardust is a herald level character and had a planet busting feat in the very next issue.The scan makes it pretty clear that they were both evenly matched in terms of strength.(Strombreaker : Saga of Beta Ray Bill).
  • Scan 3 : A single hit from Bill , makes a noticeable crack on Galactus's armor.(Stormbreaker : Saga of Beta Ray Bill).

These scans should be enough for now , they clearly show that Bill's strength/striking is easily at par with other High High Tier characters. Bill's hits should surely be able to daze Hank and even do damage to him.

Durability :

His durability is easily at par with other High High Tiers , lets have a look ,

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  • Scan 1 : Tanks multiple hits from Thor , although Thor didn't have Mjolnir , but tanking hits from Thor even without Mjolnir is quite an impressive feat.(Thor Vol 1 #338).
  • Scan 2 : Tanks being hit by Surfer's board and then two shots from Surfer , although Surfer draws blood from him , but it's clear from Bill's expression that he was rather fine from the hits.(Beta Ray Bill : Godhunter #2).
  • Scan 3 : Tanks the destruction of a planet. (Beta Ray Bill : Godhunter #1).

These scans make it clear that Bill's durability is High High tier as well , and he should be able to tank hits from Hank.

Energy Durability :

I know you will rely on Hank's Heat Vision as one of his major ways to put down Bill and Gladiator , so I am doing an entire section for Energy Durability.

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Stormbreaker : Saga of Beta Ray Bill

Kinda no-sells a blast that levels a large part of planet. The damage done by the blast is made pretty visible and Bill looks rather fine from taking it , this is a really impressive feat.

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Beta Ray Bill : Godhunter #1

Tanks a blast from Stardust.

He can also block Hank's Heat Vision with Stormbreaker , something which he has done before ,

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  • Scan 1 : Creates a shield to block a blast from Nova (Sam Alexander).(Nova Vol 5 #13).
  • Scan 2 : Uses Strombreaker to block a Blast from Silver Surfer.(Beta Ray Bill : Godhunter #2).
  • Scan 3 : Uses Strombreaker to block a large Blast from Stardust.(Beta Ray Bill : Godhunter #1).

I believe that Bill should be able to tank Hank's heat vision , or just block it with Stormbreaker. From what I have seen Hank's heat vision is quite powerful , Bill has blocked blasts from characters like Stardust and Surfer , he can do it with Hank too.

Well , these scans are clearly establish Bill's High High Tier status , his strength/striking is easily at par with guys like Thor and should be enough to daze and even hurt Hank , his blunt force durability is pretty impressive as well and I believe he should be able to tank hits from Hank as well , even though Hank's HV can damage him , Bill an just block it with Strombreaker. I will focus on Bill's energy attacks and speed in next post.

Gladiator :

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Bio :

Kallark, code-named Gladiator, was once the Praetor of the Shi'ar Imperial Guard, the most faithful servant of the Shi'ar throne. After the Shi'ar-Kree War, with the apparent death of Lilandra and Vulcan, Kallark is elevated to the position of Majestor by consensus of a desperate Shi'ar populace.

Powers and Abilities :

  • Super Strength.
  • Super Durability.
  • Super Speed/Reflexes.
  • Heat Vision.

Strength/Striking :

Gladiator is underrated , he has multiple good instances that make him a solid Mid High Tier character , let's have a look ,

Strength :

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  • Scan 1-2 : Holds up and moves newly made Shi'Ar warships , easily a few million ton feat and he does it rather casually as well.(Realm of Kings : Imperial Guards).
  • Scan 3 : Moves an Asteroid back into orbit. Even a small-sized asteroid should weigh a few trillion tons , add in the extra force needed to put it back into it's orbit , and this is a really impressive feat. He's does this rather easily as well. (Thor Vol 1 #445).
  • Scan 4 : Breaks out of Quasar's construct.(Starblast).
  • Scan 5 : Blocks hits from Ikon The Spaceknight and Ikon had hurt/put down Ronan and casually broke Quasar's constructs in the same issue.Gladiator was holding back during this as well.(Annihilators #1). It was also stated by Ikon that all the members of the Annihilators were "Alpha Class" , (Except Ronan , who was "barely alpha class") , this makes it clear that he is "atleast" at par with the other members like Bill and Quasar in terms of strength.
  • Scan 6-8 : During his fight with Earth-712 Hyperion , not only does he overpower Hyperion on two occassions , he ends up snapping Hyperion's neck by the end of the fight.(Starblast).

Striking :

His striking is very underrated , he has one-shot multiple High Mid Tiers and hurt High Tiers , lets have a look ,

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  • Scan 1-2 : One-shots current Drax with absolute ease.(Guardians of the Galaxy : Mother Entropy Vol 1).
  • Scan 3-4 : A single punch from Gladiator puts Jane Thor on her knees and Jane even admits that Gladiator is strong.(The Mighty Thor Vol 2 #15).
  • Scan 5 : One-shots The Thing with ease , Thing is a solid High Mid Tier character.(Fantastic Four #249) , during the 80's he even had showings that would put him on Low High Tier level.
  • Scan 6 : KO's Vulcan with only two Punches. (Uncanny X-Men #477).
  • Scan 7 : One-shots The Guardians of The Galaxy (Drax , Angela and Groot) and they were out for the entire issue.(All New X-Men #24).
  • Scan 8 : One-shots Black Bolt as well , and it was clearly stated that White Noise only "stunned him" for a second , so it's clear that a single punch from Gladiator was enough to take Black Bolt out.(War of Kings).
  • Scan 9 : One-shots the Shi'Ar Gods , the same Gods were no-selling hits from Jane Thor just two issue prior. (The Mighty Thor #19).
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Nova Vol 2 #1 and Nova Vol 4 #24

Scan 1 : Gladiator reacting to a bulrush from Nova (Richard Rider) is enough to hurt Nova.

Scan 2 : Nearly takes out Malick Tracel who was having the powers of Nova Prime at that time.

These scans should do for now , they clearly establish that Gladiator is a proper Mid High Tier and I believe his hits will definitely have some effect on Hank , Hank isn't no-selling his hits.

Durability :

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  • Scan 1-2 : Tanks a hit from a pissed off Jane Thor , although Jane was able to draw blood from him , he just got up and put Jane in a choke hold which she couldn't get out off.(The Mighty Thor #15).
  • Scan 3 : No-sells hits from Angela , Groot and Drax. Angela and Drax have pretty solid striking feats which should atleast put them on Low High Tier Level.(All New X-Men #24).
  • Scan 4 : Tanks a hit from Ronan's Universal Weapon , he can be seen laughing in the same panel as well.(Annihilators Earthfall #3).
  • Scan 5-6 : Tanks a hit from The Thing and Sue Storm who was having the powers of Captain Universe at that time , which makes it even more impressive. (Captain Universe : Invisible Woman).

These scans should give an idea about Gladiator's durability (I have more impressive feats , I'll give them next post) , I believe he should atleast be able to tank a couple of hits from Hank.

Energy Durability :

His Energy Durability has been pretty consistent and is pretty impressive as well ,

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  • Scan 1 : Tanks a blast from Havoc. (War of Kings).
  • Scan 2-3 : Just stands up from a powerful lightning blast from Jane Thor.(The Mighty Thor #15).
  • Scan 4 : Is unfazed by Human Torch's controlled Full-Nova Blast.(Fantastic Four #249).
  • Scan 5-6 : No-sells multiple blasts from Vulcan.(Uncanny X-Men #477).
  • Scan 7-8 : Just gets back up after taking three blasts from O5 Jean Grey.(All New X-Men #24).

These scans make it clear that Gladiator's energy durability is impressive and I also believe that he should be able to tank Hank's Heat Vision , even for some amount of time.My point Hank isn't taking him out with his heat vision alone.

Conclusion :

I only focused on both Bill and Gladiator's basic abilities in this post , I will talk about their speed and energy based attacks in my next post. I established how both of them are solid High Tier characters and I believe Hank isn't putting them down that easily considering both characters have very impressive Blunt Force as well as Energy Durability. Gladiator and Bill have fought together before so they will have good teamwork and should be able to use this to an advantage in this fight , and Hank will definitely be dazed and even hurt by their hits. From the little info I have on Hank , I think he can overpower them in 1v1 , but he isn't overpowering both of them at once and Hank will definitely be hurt by their hits and if they have perfect teamwork they could keep dropping hits on Hank and eventually be able to badly hurt him. They could also use their speed and energy based abilities (Which I will focus on in my next post).

That is it for my first post , I focused on my characters basic stats , will dive deeper in my next post.

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#21 Posted by The_Red_Devil (5075 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by Supermanthor (21831 posts) - - Show Bio

nice start

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#23 Posted by Rac95 (5138 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#24 Posted by KrleAvenger (26211 posts) - - Show Bio

Opener Post: Brief Hank Henshaw Introduction

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I personally am not a fan of detailed character introductions. Especially because most characters used on the battle forum are quite popular and people already know almost everything about them, at least the details that are necessary. Therefor, I find the whole section to be quite pointless. However, with Henshaw, I think he is one of those characters everybody heard of, but only a very small percentage of those people are actually aware of his capabilities and history. While he probably became more popular with the release of recent animated Superman movie, I am pretty sure a lot of people here have yet to watch it, and since some people I talked about are interested in Henshaw's character, I recommend you to read at least first two sections of my opener post from a 2v2 match-up I had with EmperorThanos a year ago.

It provides basic info as well as details on not only Henshaw's origin, but his history up to his appearances in 2000s, when he became more of a Green Lantern villain. It provides explanation, scans and citation. I also listed Henshaw's powers and abilities which I will not do here because he is pretty nerfed, and I will only focus on abilities and powers he is allowed to use and ones that are relevant to this discussion in particular. So I highly recommend you to check it out if you care about the details that are not really that relevant when it comes to the CaV itself.

For those of you who do not care about the details and only want to know the basics of Henshaw's origin, scans from below should suffice.

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1-2) Countdown to Final Crisis #13.

3) DC Comics Encyclopedia - Updated and Expanded #1.

4) Deadman: Dead Again #4.

5) Green Lantern/Sinestro Corps: Secret Files and Origins Vol. 1 #1.

6-8) Superman Villains: Secret Files and Origins #1.

Now that that's out of the way, I'll get into counters. Because I think Bill is a way greater threat to Henshaw than Gladiator is, I'll just skim through your Gladiator section first and then focus on Bill. However, before I get into either of those two, I just want to save you some time and quote a part from your summary section.

I only focused on both Bill and Gladiator's basic abilities in this post , I will talk about their speed and energy based attacks in my next post.

We are opponents so I won't tell you how to debate, but my suggestion is to avoid this right away. Henshaw does not use his speed in combat all that much so there is no point in bringing up speed. The only reason why that could have been a factor is if you were trying to argue that Bill and Glads will either use their speed against Henshaw himself or try to overwhelm him. If that's your plan, go for it, but I highly doubt that argument will hold that much, if any weight given that that is not how these guys fights most of the time. And it is the one I can deal with. However, if your only real intention is to counter potential "speedblitz" argument, again, don't bother. Henshaw does not fight like that.

Now that that's out of the way, lets get into those Gladiator feats.

Gladiator

The only strength feat that seems to have any sort of relevance here is the Quasar one, and that does not necessarily prove that Gladiator can hurt or contend with Henshaw, who no sold a massive Dragon Construct (created by Parallax Hal Jordan who tried to kill him) biting on to him before tearing it apart with ease.

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This was under Ron Marz, who puts Parallax way above Kyle Rayner who casually destroyed Oa while weakened in his own book as well, and also happens to be Marz' creation. Marz also had Henshaw stalemate Silver Surfer in a canon crossover, who he also puts above Kyle Rayner and a character he wrote himself and gave tons of absurd feats, but way more on all of that later.

These scans should do for now , they clearly establish that Gladiator is a proper Mid High Tier and I believe his hits will definitely have some effect on Hank , Hank isn't no-selling his hits.

All you really showed me is Glad's dominance against weakest to decent or strong mid tiers, hurting characters who are not even real powerhouses, and one-shotting characters who are decently durable. Henshaw was punched by extremely angry Superman in the jaw and he did not even feel it.

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Tribunal Prime (a guy who controlled Henshaw when this happened) stated that Henshaw is completely invulnerable to Superman's blows, something that will later on be referenced by Henshaw, Clark himself and so on. Clark later had to beat Henshaw by striking his organic looking part to KO him, which in that story was apparently less durable than the rest of his body, a concept that was never introduced before or after that instance and outright contradicts actual on panel feats. Basically Clark defeated Henshaw through plot device, and if he is completely invulnerable to a blow from an extremely angry and shocked Superman (albeit Pre-OWAW one but still a powerhouse), I doubt Glads will do much.

When it comes to your durability feats, laughing after Ronan's blow has more to do with Magus controlling him and not caring because of it rather than Glads' own reaction. As for other feats, it's just tanking blows from more mid tiers or some low high tiers. Not impressive at all. Henshaw is, according to lore and statements, at least equal to Superman, and according to other statements, more powerful than him (at least two of those come from Dan Jurgens, a Superman writer and Henshaw's creator). These statements are supported by Henshaw's own performances and feats, but again, more on that later. By far, the weakest version of Henshaw easily ragdolled Mongul.

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He had him at his mercy, with one arm at that. Mongul tanked multiple blows from high tiers like Superman and rookie Kyle Rayner and kept going. That is way more impressive than feats you brought up so, you better bring up those other feats quickly.

These scans make it clear that Gladiator's energy durability is impressive and I also believe that he should be able to tank Hank's Heat Vision , even for some amount of time.My point Hank isn't taking him out with his heat vision alone.

I disagree, given that Henshaw was capable of one-shotting Superman with Heat Vision.

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One of my plans to kill duo's teamwork is to just take Gladiator out with quick, precise and powerful long ranged energy attack like this one, but since you brought up Heat Vision in particular, I figured why not bring this one right away. And this was written by Dan Jurgens. If Hank can one-shot Superman, I am not sure why he won't be able to do the same to Glads. Aside from that outlier with Tyrant and Supernova, he lacks comparable durability feats. At least as far as I know. You could provide some more, but the ones you showcased seem rather lackluster.

Beta Ray Bill

You didn't post striking feats I expected to see but those are still pretty solid. Although I believe being compared to Superman, either as equal or superior, is more impressive than being Thor's equal.

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While it is true that Stardust destroyed a planet, that showcases her striking power and damage output, not raw strength. Which is not necessarily as great given that Bill never showcased such level of strength, and neither has Thor, nor Silver Surfer, who will later overpower Bill with raw strength. As for Galacus, damaging his armor is not as nearly as impressive as damaging Galactus himself, which did not happen here. But even if we assume those blows will just tear Henshaw apart, which I don't think will come close to happening, he can easily deal with it.

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After having two of his limbs and basically half of his torso torn apart by Zod, Henshaw showed zero discomfort or signs of pain, only being slowed down for half a page (it's actually second half of the first page, another page, and first half of the second page from above, but more than half of it do not even show sequence with Zod and Eradicator so the time skip is not necessarily as significant). While Henshaw was at least slowed down after this attack, it should be taken into account the fact that he was not fighting and was surprised. Plus, Bill will not come close to doing this to a guy who can shrug off blows from extremely angry Superman, but even if he does, Henshaw is more than capable of being torn to shreds and keep on fighting. But I will get into that when I see more impressive feats from Bill and Glads.

As for Bill's durability, a slam from the board hurt him enough to give Norrin time to get close and engage in CQC. Sure, Bill was fine after that, but only because Surfer stopped and did not put a lot of effort into his blows, showing empathy and remorse during the engagement and even stopping to convince Bill that he is outmatched. If that encounter had been continued, with Surfer having a killing or even KO intent, Bill wouldn't had gotten off easy. And even then, he was bleeding and held his face for few seconds. Henshaw is a brutal killer who will strike Bill with full force. Tanking planet level blast is impressive but not only did Henshaw force the planet to tear itself apart after putting a strain on it, but he also stalemated Silver Surfer blow for blow. Surfer was also impressed by Henshaw's energy attacks.

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This was written by Ron Marz who's views I already established prior to this section. And given the fact that the very first appearance of both Henshaw and Parallax Hal Jordan after this one, also written by Marz, states that Parallax chased Henshaw to a different Universe to find him, there is no reason not to consider this canon.

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And that is what happened there. Henshaw found himself in a different Universe, one Surfer noticed as well, and was later attacked by Parallax Hal Jordan. While this is Pre-Annihilation Surfer, he was serious in his fight with Hank and was bothered over the fact that the planet he protected was destroyed by Henshaw, yet they stalemated, while against Bill, he dealt with him rather quickly without trying very hard. While this form of scaling may not be the definitive proof of Henshaw's superiority, I still find it way better than feats you posted. I'll get into more concrete feats later (tho tearing a planet apart is pretty impressive) but this should suffice for now.

I know you will rely on Hank's Heat Vision as one of his major ways to put down Bill and Gladiator

Actually I wasn't going to argue for Henshaw using them against Bill because I agree with your section point in this section. Bill can just block Henshaw's energy attacks with Stormbreaker and absorb them, therefor they are completely pointless unless Hank somehow separates Bill from his hammer, which is unlikely. However, Bill will not be capable of protecting Gladiator from Hank's energy attacks, and because he has more types of those attacks than just Heat Vision that can work on Gladiator, I will bring those up as well later.

Your Summary

Aside from speed sentence I already acknowledged, I would like to just briefly reply to this.

I established how both of them are solid High Tier characters and I believe Hank isn't putting them down that easily considering both characters have very impressive Blunt Force as well as Energy Durability.

I think I proved Hank is solidly stronger than both of them so he should be capable of grappling on to them in order to ragdoll them around and overpower them. He used his technomorphing abilities to do this easier but I will get into that later. For now, I think feats I provided are solidly better than Bill's, and way way better than Gladiator's, who Henshaw can deal with without much difficulty thanks to his Heat Vision, allowing him to overpower Bill one on one, something you yourself agree with based on this section.

Gladiator and Bill have fought together before so they will have good teamwork and should be able to use this to an advantage in this fight , and Hank will definitely be dazed and even hurt by their hits. From the little info I have on Hank , I think he can overpower them in 1v1 , but he isn't overpowering both of them at once and Hank will definitely be hurt by their hits and if they have perfect teamwork they could keep dropping hits on Hank and eventually be able to badly hurt him.

If Hank is solidly superior to both of your characters, strength in numbers won't do much. Swarming him won't help because he is more aggressive and he won't mind ragdolling both of them. Hurting him won't help either because he can just repair himself (again, I'll get into more combat related use of this ability later) and I don't see why Hank won't just overpower the duo. He has experience with ragdolling multiple opponents at once.

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He curbstomped 4 Superman related characters (Superboy, Eradicator, Steel and Matrix) with ease, combining his striking power with energy attacks (which will work on Gladiator) and then grabbing his opponents to ragdoll them with raw strength. While all 4 of these characters are solidly weaker than Bill, Hank stomped a team that is twice as large. He can deal with numbers, and given his superior strength and healing, he can beat this duo.

I'll get more into his versatility later. And I'm curious to see what other feats you will use, as well as new categories you will include (like energy attacks, tho I hope you will take my advise and ignore speed here). I have more feats, categories and fights to include myself. So just to keep this intro brief and as simple as possible, I'll just say how I think Hank will overpower the duo with superior stats, with Heat Vision taking on Glads, and healing keeping him active.

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#25 Posted by KrleAvenger (26211 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackpantherisb: @rahiem9123: @thebestofthebest: @psy-scarlet: @invadedtbd: @apex_pretador: @rac95: Tagging people who asked to be tagged after every post. And when I'm at it, let me cite issue numbers.

==============================================================

Henshaw tearing through Parallax's construct - Parallax: Emerald Night

Henshaw no-selling Superman's punch - Superman Vol. 2 #108

Henshaw ragdolling Mongul with one arm - Adventures of Superman #504

Heat Vision one-shotting Superman - Superman Vol. 2 #108

"More powerful than Superman" quotes - Superman Vol. 2 #107 & Superman Vol. 2 #108

Healing from Zod's surprise attack -Suicide Squad Vol. 5 #19

Fighting Silver Surfer - Green Lantern/Silver Surfer: Unholy Alliances

Canon confirmation - Parallax: Emerald Night

Hank ragdolling Superman Family - Superman Vol. 2 #107

============================================================

In case you wanna double check the issues yourself, here you go folks.

@the_red_devil Post is up.

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#26 Posted by Kevd4wg (12804 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#27 Posted by Subline (8839 posts) - - Show Bio

RIP Red.

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#28 Posted by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (12149 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by KrleAvenger (26211 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Edited by The_Red_Devil (5075 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2 :

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Counters :

We are opponents so I won't tell you how to debate

Mhm , nice first counter.

but my suggestion is to avoid this right away. Henshaw does not use his speed in combat all that much so there is no point in bringing up speed

Most High Tiers (Except Speedsters) use their speed properly in combat. And I won't argue Bill or Glads using their speed to overwhelm Hank , like they don't use their speed for offence. My point will be to show that they (especially Glad) using his speed to dodge blasts from Hank and since you have made Hank using his energy blasts to put down Glad a major point in your post , it won't do anything if Glad can dodge it.

The only strength feat that seems to have any sort of relevance here is the Quasar one

Well , you are ignoring the Hyperion and Ikon feats , becuase they have done some impressive stuff in their very little appearances ,

Lemme state them ,

Ikon ,

  • Casually broke Quasar's chain constructs.
  • Put down and badly hurt Ronan with just a few hits.

Both in the same issue where Glads has that feat with her.

Hyperion (Earth-712) ,

  • One-shot Ms.Marvel.
  • Held fair in a fight against Squadron Sinister Hyperion (Who could casually crush diamond with his hands) and their fight also leveled a part of Mt Rushmore.
  • Staggered Thor with his hit and tanked a hit from him.
  • Held fair against Wonder Man (Who was being amped by Wanda and it looked like he was in his Ionic form , or whatever , he was stronger than his usual self).

Even if we don't go by these scaling , Gladiator has some better strength feats of his own as well ,

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  • Scan 1 : After taking a hit from Jane , he gets back up and holds Jane in a choking position before teleporting away and Jane is hurt and unable to do anything about it , it's clear form her facial expression that Jane is struggling with that hold.(The Mighty Thor #15).
  • Scan 2 : Easily breaks out of Polaris's grip , who even admits that she can't hold him.(Polaris is said to have same potential as Magneto).(X-Men Kingbreaker) .
  • Scan 3 : This time while being possessed by Magus and with Quasar concentrating a lot more and really trying hard to hold him back , he shatters Quasar's constructs.(Annihilators : Earthfall #4).
  • Scan 4 : Hurts Quasar through his Quantum Aura , which is confirmed by Quasar himself. (Quasar #55 , I don't remember the exact issue but it was from around the same time).
  • Scan 5 : Punching his way out of Susan's force-fields , he is punching so hard that Sue admits she can't hold him.(He does this with around 3 punches,because next page we see Sue getting knocked out).(Fantastic Four (Vol.1)#249). It is made clear that Sue can't hold her with her force fields , and this was after Gladiator took out Thing and Torch which means Sue was trying pretty hard to hold him back.

These should convince you about Gladiator's strength. He should atleast be able to contend with Henshaw in terms of strength , although Henshaw will eventually get the upper hand , but with Bill at Gladiator's side he can't do much with this advantage. I mean he isn't overpowering both of them at once.

Marz also had Henshaw stalemate Silver Surfer in a canon crossover

So that should mean that Hank is pretty much Surfer level.

All you really showed me is Glad's dominance against weakest to decent or strong mid tiers, hurting characters who are not even real powerhouses, and one-shotting characters who are decently durable.

Both Nova and Black Bolt should be Low-High Tiers and not mid-tiers , so one-shotting them definitely holds some weight.

Alright , I should give some more feats ,

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Guardians of The Galaxy Vol 5 #3

Badly hurts and damages Nova Prime (Richard Rider) with a punch followed by his heat vision. Richard as Nova Prime is a proper High Tier , so badly hurting him with one punch should be considered pretty impressive.

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Captain Universe : Invisible Woman

Trades blows and holds fair against Invisible Woman who was having Captain Universe inside of her , basically it was Uni-Powered Sue. It's pretty clear that the fight was pretty fair and Gladiator also tanked quite a few hits from her.

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Guardians of The Galaxy Vol 5 #4

His fight against Beta Ray Bill himself , although most of it happened off-panel , but Gladiator emerged Victorious which is the bottom line. Although I won't say Gladiator > Bill , because Bill wasn't going all out , but even then Gladiator did manage to beat him. This and the statements from Annihilators that they were both Alpha-Class , should establish the fact that they are around the same level.

Basically Clark defeated Henshaw through plot device, and if he is completely invulnerable to a blow from an extremely angry and shocked Superman (albeit Pre-OWAW one but still a powerhouse), I doubt Glads will do much.

I doubt it , I just gave more feats to establish Gladiator as a proper High Tier in terms of strength , one-shotting Low-high Tiers like Black Bolt, Binary and Nova , one-shotting the Shi'Ar Gods(Who were not even dazed by Jane Thor's hits and Aaron puts Jane as a proper High Tier) , nearly taking out Nova Prime(Rich) with a single shot , taking out Beta Ray Bill himself should establish him as a proper High Tier in terms of striking.

Alright , time for some impressive durability feats , the one's I provided were Low-High Tier at best( that's because most of his interactions and appearances are with such character) ,

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Thanos : The Infinity Relativity

It takes Annihilus (Who at this point was atleast Thanos level) a good couple of hits to put Gladiator down and then Thanos admits that it would have taken him longer to put Gladiator down than Annihilus. This is definitely a good feat since it takes a team-buster quite a few hits(8 to be precise) to put him down.

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Quasar Vol 1 #55

Another Controversial one , here he takes a Black Bolt's whisper in his ear and is shown to float away from BB after which the narration cuts back to space and when it comes back to the Quantum Zone , he is back at Quasar and Lockjaw has to teleport him.(Even Quasar stated that the Whisper did not keep him down and he got back at him , so I don't know why people say Gladiator was Ko'd which is definitely not the case).

So he basically tanks(Although he got stunned) Black Bolt's whisper to his ear.

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The Mighty Thor #17

He doesn't go down after taking a beating from The Destroyer , instead comments on how the beating was.("The Destroyer....Never have I felt such power").

These scans should be enough to establish that it won't be easy for Henshaw to put down Gladiator.

By far, the weakest version of Henshaw easily ragdolled Mongol.

Alright , but Mongol himself failed to put down Sinestro even with several Yellow rings , and Sinestro is a High High Tier / Powerhouse at his best and rookie Kyle isn't as good as what he became to be.So comparing Henshaw to Mongol doesn't do much.

I disagree, given that Henshaw was capable of one-shotting Superman with Heat Vision.

If Hank can one-shot Superman, I am not sure why he won't be able to do the same to Glads. Aside from that outlier with Tyrant and Supernova, he lacks comparable durability feats.

No , I just gave multiple feats to show that Gladiator has pretty consistent energy durability and has tanked hits from some of the best energy based characters (Like O5 Jean , Vulcan , Havoc,Binary and Human Torch whose nova-blast is pretty powerful).So his feats of tanking Tyrant's HV and flying through a Red Giant unfazed don't look like outliers considering he has pretty consistent energy durability , as I have shown. So I believe he can also be able to tank Hank's HV based on feats.

At least as far as I know. You could provide some more, but the ones you showcased seem rather lackluster.

The energy durability feats were not lackluster in anyway.

Although I believe being compared to Superman, either as equal or superior, is more impressive than being Thor's equal.

Bill has always been compared as an equal to Thor(Although he did get the upper hand in their second fight) , with their respective hammers they also have similar abilities like Lightning , weather control , energy absorption and projection etc. These abilities make both him and Thor very versatile , the fact that he is an equal to Thor in all these abilities means that he is just as versatile and these abilities give him an advantage since he can use these abilities with his strength and striking to do more damage. This should also be very useful in this fight.

While it is true that Stardust destroyed a planet, that showcases her striking power and damage output, not raw strength.

If Stardust has planet level striking means that he/she should have atleast comparable physical strength as well.

Which is not necessarily as great given that Bill never showcased such level of strength, and neither has Thor, nor Silver Surfer

Well I am not saying that either Stardust or Bill are planet level , but they should have pretty impressive strength levels.

As for Galactus, damaging his armor is not as nearly as impressive as damaging Galactus himself, which did not happen here.

Galactus's armor is pretty durable , like it has to be durable , so being able to damage it with just one hit should mean that Bill's striking is pretty impressive.

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Strombreaker : Saga of Beta Ray Bill

Destroys a planet , albeit with a huge bulrush along with a hit on Stardust's staff. But a planet level feat nevertheless.

Bill will not come close to doing this to a guy who can shrug off blows from extremely angry Superman.

That's too much scaling and relying on one feat , I have shown feats for Bill performing against High Tiers , going toe-to-toe with Thor in two pure H2H fights and even getting the upper hand in the second fight , holding fair against Stardust , cracking Galactus's armor and even destroying a planet. Bill has very few feats to begin with so basing off these feats he should be atleast atleast as good as Superman based on these feats.

And even then, he was bleeding and held his face for few seconds.

He was fine , and Surfer didn't draw too much blood either and Bill was still fine from it.

While this form of scaling may not be the definitive proof of Henshaw's superiority, I still find it way better than feats you posted.

Although he fought Surfer , doesn't necessarily mean he is superior to Surfer and Bill's fight with Surfer was pretty brief , so scaling just from that fight alone isn't saying much. Like Bill fought another Herald of Galactus in form of Stardust and their fights are pretty even (Although Bill did get a slight upper hand in their fight in Godhunter) , but it goes without saying that they are pretty evenly matched in all aspects. Then he is considered and has proved that he is easily a match for Thor (Even getting the upper hand in a pure H2H fight) and if I scale Thor to Surfer himself , in The Mighty Thor Vol 1 , Thor and Surfer had a pretty fair fight (Both were pretty pissed at each other , so saying Surfer was holding back doesn't count) , I'll leave it at that.

Tanking planet level blast is impressive but not only did Henshaw force the planet to tear itself apart after putting a strain on it

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Strombreaker : Saga of Beta Ray Bill

Tanks being bulrushed through the core of a planet and the destruction of the planet. Although it looked like he was a bit hurt/dazed , but he was fine otherwise.

Bill's durability is pretty impressive , which is made pretty clear from the feats I provided , and it's pretty believable that he can't put down Bill based on pure strength/striking alone and I also provided feats for Gladiator and I believe that he isn't going down easy either.

If Hank is solidly superior to both of your characters, strength in numbers won't do much. Swarming him won't help because he is more aggressive and he won't mind rag-dolling both of them

I don't think so , it won't be easy for him to ragdoll them , considering I just gave strength/striking feats for both. I gave solid feats for Gladiator and Bill , add in the fact that Marvel clearly puts Thor and Bill on the same level of strength which tells a lot.

He curbstomped 4 Superman related characters (Superboy, Eradicator, Steel and Matrix) with ease

"Superman related characters" , but not Superman or people who are atleast at par with Superman. Like Steel , Superboy and Matrix aren't as good Gladiator and Bill , and I don't think Eradicator is that much of a physical threat. Bill and Gladiator should beat that team without much problem.

Also both Bill and Gladiator are trained warriors , who have been fighting for a long time (unlike the people on the team) , add in the fact that Bill and Gladiator have fought and worked together in the past , which means they have very good co-ordination and teamwork. They are just stronger than the team that Hank beat , are also more skilled and have much better co-ordination.

with Heat Vision taking on Glads

No , I just proved he has consistent energy durability against some of the best energy-based characters in Marvel , also I am about to make a point of him dodging HV.

Gladiator's Speed and HV :

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  • Scan 1 : Just to give and idea , Human Torch couldn't even see Gladiator punch. (Torch does have feats of reacting to missiles , even deflecting them). But again this is just to show that Gladiator is fast.
  • Scan 2 : Here he dodges Storm's lightning , which is comparable to natural lightning.(Although it was a Skrull , but they just copy abilities and one of Storm's ability is to control natural lightning).
  • Scan 3 : Reacts to a blast from The Destroyer and then bulrush's him.
  • Scan 4 : Reacts to a bulrush from Richard Rider and hits him back really hard.
  • Scan 5 : Casually sees a bullet (that can span a city distance almost instantly) in very slow motion and catches it.

I did a calculation for the last scan , which I can provide if you want.

So he has basically dodged blasts in combat , and I believe he might be able to dodge a blast , even if he doesn't I have already proved his consistent energy durability and that he should be able to tank based on feats I provided.

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  • Scan 1 : Was narrated to be hotter than a star.
  • Scan 2 : Holds fair in a beam struggle against P5 Cyclops for quite sometime.
  • Scan 3 : Temporarily holds fair in beam struggle against Tyrant , although he eventually loses out.
  • Scan 4 : Hurts Jane Thor , even though it looks like she was blocking it with Mjolnir (And Mjolnir has been shown to be quite effective in protecting the wielder from energy based attacks , even then Jane gets hurt).
  • Scan 5 : Hurts Ronan , even though he clearly blocked it with his Universal weapon.
  • In some of the scans I provided above in Counters section , you can see his HV hurting Bill and badly hurting Nova Prime (who has better energy durability , because he is an energy based character).

Well , to be fair this won't be a game changer in any way , but if Gladiator uses it in close range it should atleast daze Hank a bit , which could be helpful in combat and Gladiator has used HV in combat before.

Bill's Versatility :

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Annihilators #2

Bill was able to cover an entire black star and block out it's mystical energies. It would require a storm of massive scale to block out all the light from a star,this should be atleast be around country-continent level if not more.

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  • Scan 1 : Basically turns makes a hole in Cancerverse Colossus and vaporizes him.
  • Scan 2-3 : Blocks and absorbs Stardust's blast and then hits him with a blast that badly hurts Stardust. He also creates tornadoes to catch Stardust off-guard.
  • Scan 4 : Holds fair in beam struggle against Stardust.

It has to be admitted Bill has very solid energy attacks , and should hurt Hank. Then Bill could absorb Hank's blasts/HV and then hit Hank with a even more powerful blast hurting him in the process , he could also use his weather manipulation to catch Hank off-guard and thus allowing him and Gladiator to drop more hits.

Conclusion :

Well , time for a conclusion , I went in depth in both my characters abilities and gave more feats about their basic stats. I have given enough scans to suggest that both should be able to tank quite some hits from. I also gave two counters for Hank's ways of putting down Gladiator.

Bill and Gladiator are strong enough to be atleast match Hank , and Hank isn't overpowering both of them at once. I believe hits from both Bill and Gladiator should be able to do more damage , they also have other means other than just physical hits , like HV , energy blasts , weather manipulation etc.IfHank tries to reassemble himself , they could just hit him with energy blasts to keep him from reassembling. Glad's HV , Bill's blasts and weather manipulation will definitely be a problem for Hank in a close range and it might allow them to drop more hits. As for Hank's HV / Blasts , Bill could absorb it with Stormbreaker and as I have stated Glad can either tank it or try to dodge it and they can tank his hits as well , although if it was 1v1 he could put them down eventually , but 2 of them at once he can't do that.

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#31 Posted by The_Red_Devil (5075 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Edited by KrleAvenger (26211 posts) - - Show Bio

Rebuttal - Round 2

No Caption Provided

I did not want to go over every single feat or form of scaling. Truth to be told, I find it extremely unnecessary. But since you called me out on ignoring some feats and scaling you brought up, both outside and during this CaV, I will acknowledge everything you have said so far.

Counters to Counters (?)

I'll leave the "dodge energy attacks" part for your speed section (so for later). You said how I ignored Ikon and Hyperion scaling but feats you listed for them have no relevance at all. Ronan is not physically imposing and beating him while he was already hurt means nothing here. Glads himself broke Quasar's constructs so him overpowering someone who broke smaller ones does not change anything. And Wonder Man scaling off of Hyperion does not work because Gladiator actually fought Wonder Man and was not only shocked because he was completely fine after his killing blow failed to do anything to Simon, but he had to rely on BFR to beat Simon by punching him deep inside Earth's core. The only reason why he was not seen until several pages later is because he needed time to get back to the surface since Gladiator destroyed the device that gave Simon his flying abilities (he could not fly alone at the time).

Ms. Marvel is also extremely lackluster, and I am mostly never impressed with "staggering/causing pain" feats (Thor, Quasar) unless writers really put into perspective how it is overwhelming for the victim. Otherwise, people get staggered in comics because that is how people react to punches. Mid tiers will even stagger Heralds. The only time when people no-sell a punch is when writers actually care to show massive gap in power, which does not happen very often. Even Thanos gets staggered very often. Pre-Annihilation Nova was ragdolled by Iron Man and Black Bolt is listed as only class 60 who struggled with mid tiers. We don't know who launched Nova Prime so the only thing we definitely know is that Glads hurt him with Heat Vision (which won't hurt Hank). Susan Storm is formidable but taking her out does not seem as nearly as impressive as taking down Teams of Superman characters or fighting Surfer.

Jane Foster is not so impressive outside of her comparisons with other characters, such as Hercules and Thor, and I don't think you would agree that Glads is suddenly powerful enough to ragdoll people with their levels of strength. I guess he was able to contend with Captain Universe Sue but that was all he was able to do. Unless she is for some reason way way more powerful than Hank, I am still not sure why that feat holds any relevance. In fact, aside from re-posted Quasar feat, the only feat that holds any relevance is taking down Bill. And the rest of the fight happened off-panel. This means we have no idea how the fight continued/ended. Maybe Bill was attacked by someone else and got double-teamed. Or maybe was not defeated by Glads at all. And we can't say it was obviously Glads alone because at the end, he also held another character (Moondragon I guess, don't know) along with Bill, one he was not fighting against.

You also did not include this part of the fight; Bill holding screaming Glads in an armlock.

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~ Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 5 #4

This is the last thing we see from the two of them, and then later Glads suddenly holds Bill unconscious along with another character he was not even fighting against. Seems sketchy. While it is possible Glads defeated Bill, claiming he has done that by himself and in a completely fair fight is nothing but assumption. Maybe Bill was distracted with Quill and Gamora. I won't make assumptions myself, but unknown circumstances make the entire instance almost unusable.

I know it looks like I'm disregarding every single feat you're bringing up, but again, when you look at it, they are not that impressive. They are either hard to quantify, full of sketchy scaling, not impressive, or just showings with mid tiers. Even apparent low-high tiers either do not fall into that category or lack impressive feats. You agreed that Hank is Surfer level so even if Glads can ragdoll apparent low high tiers, it does not mean he can contend with Henshaw.

I doubt it , I just gave more feats to establish Gladiator as a proper High Tier in terms of strength , one-shotting Low-high Tiers like Black Bolt, Binary and Nova , one-shotting the Shi'Ar Gods(Who were not even dazed by Jane Thor's hits and Aaron puts Jane as a proper High Tier) , nearly taking out Nova Prime(Rich) with a single shot , taking out Beta Ray Bill himself should establish him as a proper High Tier in terms of striking.

And I showed you Henshaw not dealing with, not tanking blows from, but not even feeling a blow from extremely angry Superman to the jaw, claiming he is completely invulnerable to his attacks. Glads may be a high tier based on these showings but so is Superman, and a better one at that. Yet Henshaw is invulnerable to him. High tier or not, Glads can not hurt someone angry Superman can not.

These scans should be enough to establish that it won't be easy for Henshaw to put down Gladiator.

Both Annihilus and Destroyer defeated him with zero effort. He just wasn't one-shotted. Impressive but it takes way less to put Gladiator down. It does not matter if it takes him 1 punch or 10 punches. Glads is not a threat to Hank at all. He can't hurt him and is way weaker. Henshaw can just ragdoll him around like he's done with Superman Team and take his time to put him down. And Heat Vision can still one-shot him like it one-shotted Superman.

Alright , but Mongol himself failed to put down Sinestro even with several Yellow rings , and Sinestro is a High High Tier / Powerhouse at his best and rookie Kyle isn't as good as what he became to be.So comparing Henshaw to Mongol doesn't do much.

Mongul Jr. fought Sinestro. This was Mongul Sr., and Rookie Kyle still ragdolled Kalibak, fought Parallax and destroyed Oa. Not that Mongul operates on those levels but fighting Kyle is still impressive. Sure, it does not do much, but weakest Henshaw ragdolling him with one arm is way way better than 90% of feats you listed for Glads. There's a vault that apparently Superman can not even break, and Henshaw basically went through it like it is nothing. This is Pre-OWAW again, but this is also the weakest Henshaw so it does not really matter.

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~ Superman Vol. 2 #78

It is pretty clear that Jurgens thinks Henshaw is solidly superior to Superman, which is more than enough to overwhelm Glads. Again, if he is not a threat, it does not matter if he can't take Glads out with 1-3 punches (I can argue he can, but I don't have to). He is still way stronger and way too durable to even get hurt by Glads. His only purpose is to be another target for Henshaw which will give Bill the opening, and even that will only delay the inevitable. But more on Bill later.

So I believe he can also be able to tank Hank's HV based on feats.

O5 Jean, Vulcan, Havoc, Binary and Johnny are not coming close to being as powerful as Superman or Henshaw, and lack damage output comparable to something not even Clark can take. So those feats do not mean much. Superman himself also has better feats than Glads. I'll get more into energy attacks later given that Henshaw has more options than just Heat Vision and has different forms of use.

The energy durability feats were not lackluster in anyway.

Compared to something that can one-shot Superman, they are.

That's too much scaling and relying on one feat , I have shown feats for Bill performing against High Tiers , going toe-to-toe with Thor in two pure H2H fights and even getting the upper hand in the second fight , holding fair against Stardust , cracking Galactus's armor and even destroying a planet. Bill has very few feats to begin with so basing off these feats he should be atleast atleast as good as Superman based on these feats.

I base it off of one feat because that is all I need. Truth to be told, I don't need durability feats. I showed you Henshaw's body being torn apart and then rebuilt in seconds. Bill can cause as much damage as he wants. He will never have enough power to overwhelm his healing abilities. And I showed so many examples of Jurgens believing Hank is superior to Clark so gap in power is consistent. But if you feel like I rely too much on only one feat, there is also Hank tanking no damage from dragon construct created by Parallax Hal Jordan biting him (posted).

There are also several other examples of Henshaw not caring about Superman's punches. Hell, Henshaw literally used parts of his body to create cuffs for Superman, one he couldn't break free from, which proves how he is invulnerable to his attacks even further (Clark was almost KO'd here, but he couldn't break free even afterwards). It also helps the fact that he got up with no difficulty after being exposed to space station's energies for multiple seconds, while Clark was down the moment after they touched him. Henshaw tanked more yet he was still in way better shape.

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~ Action Comics #717

This was also after he tanked few blows from Superman with no damage. I know Superman is overused at this point so to prove Henshaw is impressive even without relying on this form of scaling, here is Henshaw surviving not only the Event Horizon of the Black Hole, but also entering the singularity and coming out later, ending up in the Marvel Universe (I remember a Black Hole being something that was gonna kill Bill).

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~ Adventures of Superman #531

These objects are powerful enough to tear entire planets apart. And for the sake of being consistent, here is Henshaw blocking a blast from Silver Surfer (being totally unimpressed, even tho Surfer was bragging about how he controls the Power Cosmic), and then tanking a blast from Parallax Hal Jordan from behind, both with no damage. It should be noted that the former was pissed and the latter went for the kill.

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~ Green Lantern/Silver Surfer: Unholy Alliances

Yes, Henshaw does have more feats, but I don't want to make this too long and tedious to read. I think I've proved my point. Henshaw does have way better feats than the one against Superman. The reason why I even put so much emphasis on that feat is because Henshaw: 1) did not even feel it, 2) was stated to be invulnerable, 3) was stated to be more powerful than Superman, 4) one shotted Superman afterwards, and 5) Superman was incredibly pissed.

It shows where Henshaw stands in the eyes of his creator, who wrote multiple stories with him which makes him consistently powerful. But I don't need that one feat to prove my point. Gladiator can't hurt Henshaw. Bill might with his fully powered attacks, but Henshaw will just heal. You did not even acknowledge my Zod feat. How is the duo suppose to overcome durability AND such potent healing abilities (I'll bring up more healing feats later)?

Although he fought Surfer , doesn't necessarily mean he is superior to Surfer and Bill's fight with Surfer was pretty brief , so scaling just from that fight alone isn't saying much. Like Bill fought another Herald of Galactus in form of Stardust and their fights are pretty even (Although Bill did get a slight upper hand in their fight in Godhunter) , but it goes without saying that they are pretty evenly matched in all aspects. Then he is considered and has proved that he is easily a match for Thor (Even getting the upper hand in a pure H2H fight) and if I scale Thor to Surfer himself , in The Mighty Thor Vol 1 , Thor and Surfer had a pretty fair fight (Both were pretty pissed at each other , so saying Surfer was holding back doesn't count) , I'll leave it at that.

Except Surfer is known as the strongest Herald so scaling off of Stardust does not mean anything. Yes, it is saying much given that the fight was brief because Surfer was dominating. Evidence is him saying: "Do not rise. You can not match me Bill." He felt pity and just stopped. And underlined part actually implies that Bill was down. I don't want to get into Thor and Surfer because encounter between Bill and Surfer is pretty clear cut.

Bill's durability is pretty impressive , which is made pretty clear from the feats I provided , and it's pretty believable that he can't put down Bill based on pure strength/striking alone and I also provided feats for Gladiator and I believe that he isn't going down easy either.

I showed you Henshaw casually one-shotting powerful constructs from beings as powerful as Parallax, stalemating the likes of Silver Surfer, and constantly being scaled off of Superman as his superior (he was stated to be equal to Rebirth Superman tho, but that version actually destroyed a planet). Feats you posted for Bill are nothing short of extremely impressive, but I don't think it is fair to assume he can not be put down by Henshaw. Anyway, I said I will bring up more feats for Henshaw so why not include the one where he did this to Doomsday:

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~ Superman/Batman Annual #5

Here, Henshaw basically tears through Doomsday's body with his bullrush. Now, this was after a very long fight between the two, but Henshaw only landed 2 blows on-panel. Everything else he threw at Doomsday were bullrushes and energy attacks. And Henshaw mostly preformed so well because he was extremely motivated to win later on, which might happen here eventually (given that he can heal, he has all the time in the world).

Now, you can argue Bill is more durable than Doomsday, but again, Henshaw did not simply hurt him or even KO him. He literally tore him apart. If he can do that to Doomsday, then I am pretty sure he can put Bill down eventually (he has more means to do so but more on that later). This is one of ROD Doomsday clones but a lot of high tiers and even Superman actually engaged in a fight with them and could not win.

"Superman related characters" , but not Superman or people who are atleast at par with Superman. Like Steel , Superboy and Matrix aren't as good Gladiator and Bill , and I don't think Eradicator is that much of a physical threat. Bill and Gladiator should beat that team without much problem.

Also both Bill and Gladiator are trained warriors , who have been fighting for a long time (unlike the people on the team) , add in the fact that Bill and Gladiator have fought and worked together in the past , which means they have very good co-ordination and teamwork. They are just stronger than the team that Hank beat , are also more skilled and have much better co-ordination.

I literally said how your Team is superior. The whole point is to show that Henshaw can contend with multiple opponents. That is all. He ragdolled them with ease. He might not outright curbstomp your duo, but he is 1) physically superior to both, and 2) is either too durable or has too strong of a healing factor to be put down. Logical conclusion, he wins.

And that is without factoring versatility and how good Hank is at repairing and fighting at the same time (again, you completely ignored healing abilities). This team also worked together so teamwork only works in theory for you unless you have feats of tactical skills that will be a factor.

And as far as I remember, skill NEVER helped any of these two. Ever. Every time they held their own, stalemated, or won, it was because of their powers and stats. Never skill. Strength in numbers is only relevant when you can beat the opponent. Glads can not hurt Hank. Bill can but he can not do that AND overcome healing factor.

No , I just proved he has consistent energy durability against some of the best energy-based characters in Marvel , also I am about to make a point of him dodging HV.

Characters who can't one-shot Superman. So this is not very convincing. Now, I would like to bring up another factor in this fight, and that is Henshaw's ability to adapt to his opponents and their physiology. He has done so against Eradicator. He adapted his blaster to his physiology, allowing him to take him down right away.

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~ Superman Vol. 2 #107

He also adapted his Heat Vision to Superman's energy form (which can channel, absorb and manipulate energy as well as phase through attacks) after taking a lock at his bio-frequency.

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~ Superman Red/Superman Blue

To give you an idea of how effective this ability is (since it mostly comes from Henshaw's technopathy which is absurd and even allowed him to control the Source Wall), he adapted his entire body to survive basically anything and everything seen inside the Phantom Zone, be it nature of the entire place or creatures in there.

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~ Superman: Man of Steel #100

The reason why I'm bringing this up is because Gladiator's body is vulnerable to most forms of radiation, which can kill him. So it is possible that Henshaw can adapt to his physiology and just take him down that way. Several sources support the idea of Glads being vulnerable to such a thing.

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~ Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #250

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~ Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Deluxe Edition #5

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~ Incredible Hulk Annual 1997

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~ Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: A-Z Update #1 (2010-2011)

Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Master Edition #8 also confirms this, but I don't have a scan from that one.

It should also be noted that Hulk realized Glads is vulnerable to radiation after his own Heat Vision almost KO'd him and made him scream in pain. So it is possible that it also qualifies as form of radiation he is weak to. Heat Vision is basically concentrated solar radiation so if one-shotting Superman is not enough to prove Henshaw can one-shot Glads (which honestly, it should be more than enough), this definitely is.

Even disregarding that, Glads Heat Vision almost KO'd him so Hank should replicate that feat.

Gladiator's Speed & Heat Vision

Not much to say here. Gladiator dodges attacks. You provided more evidence than I expected. Granted, Heat Vision is a high speed attack that constantly hit characters with high speeds. Even Henshaw landed it on Superman and Hal Jordan. And Glads himself was tagged by attacks several times. He might dodge few blasts, but he will get hit eventually, especially if it turns into CQC and Henshaw grabs him or punches him while also hitting him with Heat Vision. As for Glads' own Heat Vision, most Kryptonians no-sell their own Heat Vision. Even weakened Clark tanked his own with no damage or pain. Henshaw is way more durable than Clark and is basically better version of him so Gladiator's Heat Vision won't do anything. I also showcased Henshaw's energy durability as well, against Parallax and Norrin.

Bill's Versatility & Your Conclusion

This can actually be very effective. Problem is, Storms on such a massive scale can also hurt your partner. Henshaw will fight at close proximity so relying on such a thing is dangerous, and impractical. Given Henshaw's style, he will most likely bullrush the two and turn this into CQC similar to the ones Bill had with Stardust (when he tore it's arm off with his teeth), meaning they will both have to rely on their physical attacks to fight back. And he can simply move away from those Storms. I guess Bill can still respond with energy blasts but I don't see them doing much to someone who laughs at blasts from Silver Surfer, tanks attacks from Parallax and survives Black Holes.

As for hurting Hank, sure, Bill can do that. Problem is, can he put him down? Heat Vision and energy blasts will do literally nothing. Storms are definitely not effective at close range, and Glads is not hurting Hank. Bill can hurt him, but he will have an incredibly hard time doing so. He will not bypass his durability AND overwhelm his healing factor. You said they can hit him while he is reassembling but this literally NEVER happened in any fight Henshaw participated in given how effective and fast his healing abilities are, plus the fact that Henshaw can fight while reassembling at the same time. A good example of this is his fight with ROD Doomsday clone from Superman/Batman Annual #5:

https://imgur.com/a/xiOWHlm

As you can see, Henshaw basically goes toe-to-toe with the creature, who is apparently physically superior to him. He gets thrown around and ragdolled over and over again, even losing parts of his head and limbs. Yet he continues to fight with literally no difficulty. And this, just like his fight with Superman Family and most other fights he has participated in, turned into CQC. And Henshaw got torn apart multiple times, even tanking punches that damaged his body. Yet he always rebuilt himself and kept going, eventually overpowering Doomsday until the latter absorbed his powers, took control of the Watchtower and overpowered him (he still tanked multiple blows, including Heat Vision).

Granted, he had the Watchtower here to use as pieces of tech to rebuild himself, but he can always use his own pieces of tech or ones torn apart from him to repair. He repairs extremely quickly. When Parallax Hal Jordan and Green Lantern Hal Jordan busted through his stomach/chest with their attacks, he regenerated a second afterwards without using any other pieces to do so (there were not even any during his fight with Parallax).

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~ Parallax: Emerald Night

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~ Green Lantern Vol. 4 #13

He can tank all the damage and continue to attack until both of them go down. He is stronger than both of them and has more than enough striking power to KO them. He also has means to one-shot Gladiator. And yes, Bill can absorb his energy attacks, but there is a way to counter this. If you take a look back at Doomsday fight, Hank was not only in a physical brawl with the creature, but was also spamming energy attacks, from Heat Vision, to Freeze Breath to his Ion Disruptor, or massive energy attacks as well (his Freeze Breath apparently broke through Doomsday's skull, or maybe it just staggered it). This means that Henshaw can spam attacks while he is fighting the two, since he is very effective in applying both his physical strength and his other powers at the same time. So because this will be at close range and because Bill will have to deal with both Henshaw's strength and multiple energy attacks, he can get hit in the face and be in a position where he won't be able to defend himself, especially because Hank likes to bullrush his opponents and even ragdoll them with his superior physical strength, which will make it even more difficult to defend against.

These can be fatal to Gladiator (already went over Heat Vision and adaptability) and against Bill, it can stagger him pretty badly (Freeze Breath staggered Doomsday), making the number advantage way less of an issue and Henshaw's physically superiority way harder to deal with. Again, he can attack in multiple ways at the same time. To give another example of what Henshaw can use to overcome the strength in numbers in case the duo presses hard on him (for some reason): Henshaw shot blasts at Superman from his knees when the latter jumped at him.

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~ Action Comics #717

He can also change his shape to both increase his reach, provide himself with more offensive options while attacking, or morph himself around his targets to ragdoll them and overpower them more effectively.

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~ Superman: Man of Steel #100

In the end, I do not see the strength in numbers being a factor. There's lots of stuff Henshaw can do. From adapting, to repairing, to spamming energy attacks, to relying on unorthodox tactics... Just to conclude this section, laser Henshaw fires from his arm is potent enough to ground Superman for several seconds (even tho he got up later), making it incredibly effective in staggering the duo while also pressing hard on them with his strength.

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~ Superman-Doomsday: Hunter-Prey #1

=======================================================

Closure

This is way longer than I wanted it to be. But I think that is fitting for the rebuttal post. And I decided to bring up everything I left out during my opener post because I did not want to leave you with no options to counter given that my second post will probably be the last, so having the last word with new points is totally unfair. Anyway, this is everything for now. I won't bother you with another conclusion post. Not much has changed, and everything new is rather simple so no reason to over analyze it. Good luck with your next post.

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#33 Posted by KrleAvenger (26211 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_devil Post is up.

@blackpantherisb: @rahiem9123: @thebestofthebest: @psy-scarlet: @invadedtbd: @apex_pretador: @rac95: Tagging people who asked to be tagged after every post. In case some of you are wondering why I never acknowledged Henshaw ragolling Superman in their last fight I posted (just above the Hunter-Prey scans), it is because Clark was dying from Kryptonite poisoning at the time. So don't take it as a feat of curbstomping fully powered Superman. Just to avoid confusion right there.

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#34 Posted by Darthjhawk (5647 posts) - - Show Bio

Noice. Good debate so far chaps.

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#35 Posted by The_Red_Devil (5075 posts) - - Show Bio

Noice. Good debate so far chaps.

Tanks , mate.

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#36 Edited by KrleAvenger (26211 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for attention.

I just noticed I made one mistake, but I won't bring it up until the debate is over.

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#37 Posted by Big_C (91 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP.