CaV: Ben 10 (BramvanElteren) Vs. Blue Beetle (StormShadow_X)

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StormShadow_X

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#1  Edited By StormShadow_X

Adolescent Heroes using cosmically awesome weapons against their intended purpose? Sounds like an idea for a Hit Tv Series or great comic.

In this CaV we'll be putting two characters that embody the traits above against one another in a match for the teenage superhero ages.

Ben Tennyson - Wielder Of the Omnitrix Represented by BramvanElteren

No Caption Provided
  • Omniverse Ben with Omniverse Omnitrix
  • No Alien X
  • No Time Limit
No Caption Provided

Jaime Reyes - The Third Blue Beetle Represented By StormShadow_X

No Caption Provided
  • PC/New 52 - Rebirth Jaime Reyes

Rules -

  • In Character
  • Basic Knowledge but otherwise random encounter
  • Location is Empty Planet
  • Determined to win
  • Win via Death, KO,Incap
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StormShadow_X

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#2  Edited By StormShadow_X

Voters

  • Spinach
  • defiant_will
  • RBT
  • TheWatcherKing
  • theONEtaichou
  • Red12789

TAEP

  • Laskt
  • Edgelord91
  • Gokukid2005
  • Alphamon
  • Void_Reborn
  • Red12789
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Spinach

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Finally a BB Cav, T4V

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Risk0608

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Interesting match, good luck bros!

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BramvanElteren

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defiant_will

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#6 defiant_will  Online

t4v

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RBT

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A Ben 10 CaV?

Please T4V.

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Laskt

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Edgelord91

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GangOrca

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#10 GangOrca  Online

This is looking good although I already have an idea of who wins.

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BramvanElteren

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StormShadow_X

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#12  Edited By StormShadow_X

@bramvanelteren: You can start, only due to Ben being such a weird character to debate for so it may be better for the voters and audience to see how you plan on debating such a diverse character unless you'd just rather not to go first which is still fine.

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Gokukid2005

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taep

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BramvanElteren

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@stormshadow_x: Sure. I should have an opener ready tomorrow. I think I have around 70% percent done atm.

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Ben Tennyson, wielder of the Omnitrix

No Caption Provided

Background

As a 10-year-old, Ben was on a vacation with his grandpa and his cousin. He believed it was incredibly boring, until he saw a comet fly at him. Except it was not a comet, but a metal ball. Ben looked at it and he found a green and black watch. The Omnitrix. He wanted to grab it, but the watch flied to his wrist. Ben tried to get it off, but he couldn’t. Then the watch displaced a picture of an alien. Ben pressed on it and he became Heatblast. That was a long time ago. Now, he uses the Omnitrix and the alien transformations within it for good, fighting criminals as Ben 10, the greatest hero of the universe!

The Omnitrix

The Omnitrix is the “watch” Ben has. It has a lot of capabilities. It can be used to transform Ben into more than 1 million aliens, but in this battle he can only use the ones he showed in the classic continuity without Alien X, so that narrows it down to 61 aliens. The Omnitrix does this on DNA level, meaning that Ben’s DNA changes every time he changes into an alien. The 61 alien’s ben has are:

  • Ampfibian
  • Arctiguanna
  • Armodrillo
  • Astrodactyl
  • Atomix
  • Ball weevil
  • Big Chill
  • Blitzwolfer
  • Bloxx
  • Brainstorm
  • Bullfrag
  • Buzzshock
  • Cannonbolt
  • Chamalien
  • Chromastone
  • Clockwork
  • Crashhopper
  • Diamondhead
  • Ditto
  • Eatle
  • Echo Echo
  • Eye guy
  • Fasttrack
  • Feedback
  • Four arms
  • Frankenstrike
  • Ghostfreak
  • Goop
  • Gravattack
  • Grey Matter
  • Gutrot
  • Heatblast
  • Humungosaur
  • Jetray
  • Jury Rigg
  • Kickin hawk
  • Lodestar
  • Molestache
  • NRG
  • Nanomech
  • Pesky dust
  • Rath
  • Ripjaws
  • Shocksquatch
  • Snare-oh
  • Spider-monkey
  • Spitter
  • Stinkfly
  • Swampfire
  • Terraspin
  • The worst
  • Toepick
  • Upchuck
  • Upgrade
  • Walkatrout
  • Water Hazard
  • Waybig
  • Whampire
  • Wildmutt
  • Wildvine
  • XLR8

The Omnitrix also has a DNA scanner. It’s able to scan lifeforms and include them in the Omnitrix. It can also randomize aliens which are already in the Omnitrix, so that every few minutes Ben has a new alien.

But the most OP thing about the Omnitrix is that if the users life is in danger it can chance to the alien that is needed to survive. So if Jaime made an axe out of the Blue Beetle armour and tries to cut Ben’s head off, it will chance to Goop or Diamondhead, who are probably immune to the axe.

Now, all these aliens have some kinda special ability. With master control Ben can turn into these aliens any time he wants. That means he can become any alien at any time. I already see a lot of these aliens beating Jaime. Since there are 61 I’m not going to make an entire essay about every one, but I picked some of them out who can potentially beat Ben or are useful in a fight against Jaime.

Grey Matter

The weakest original alien Ben has might not be useful in fighting, but Grey Matter is also the smartest. Grey Matter can look at the Scarab and boom. Ben has a lot of information he can use to K.O. Jaime or to at least take the Scarab off him.

No Caption Provided

Upgrade

The most obvious choice on the list is Upgrade. Upgrade is made from nanites. He can use these nanites to reshape himself. He can create holes in himself to dodge projectiles and beams, meaning Jaime’s cannons really can’t do anything to him. He can also tank most beams, but let’s say he dodges them. If Upgrade manages to get close enough, Upgrade can possess the scarab, which is also alien technology. This has serious one-shot capabilities right here. While Jaime and the scarab are also very likely to beat Upgrade, Ben has the better chance here. And even if Jaime manages to hurt Upgrade, Ben can just turn into another Alien.

No Caption Provided

Ghostfreak

Ghostfreak is one of the original aliens, just like Upgrade and Grey Matter. Ghostfreak is basically a ghost. He can become intangible, invisible (however, this won’t influence Jaime since the scarab can detect every being who produces energy) and possession. Jaime can’t hit Ghostfreak, and Ghostfreak could possess Jaime and the scarab with it. Ghostfreak could kill Jaime from the inside. The Scarab has no ways to prevent this or to even hurt Ghostfreak.

No Caption Provided

Wildvine/ Swampfire

This might seem weird, but it isn’t. A limitation to the Scarab is that it can’t attack nature or beings who extract power from nature. That means that plant-based characters like Wildvine and Swampfire will be completely save from the Scarab. They can attack Jaime without consequences. While the two aliens might not be strong enough to hurt Jaime as the Blue Beetle, Ben can certainly catch his breath for a moment if the fight gets hard. Which it wouldn’t because Ben has one-shotting capabilities.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Lodestar

Lodestar can manipulate the magnetic spectrum. The Scarab can’t track beings through an electromagnetic field. This means Ben can get up close without being detected. Then he can change into a stronger alien to completely stomp Jaime.

No Caption Provided

Echo Echo

This guy would completely curbstomb Jaime. He can manipulate sound using it to fly or create forcefields, but he can also duplicate himself to a certain extent. When Ben has master control he can use this to transform the duplicates into other aliens. This way he can be 20 Humungosaurs at the same time. He can also chance into the 61 aliens at the same time, completely stomping Jaime. Jaime might beat 2 weak aliens at the same time, there is no way he can beat all 61 at all.

No Caption Provided

Atomix

The guy drops a nuclear bomb on Jaime and it’s done. ‘Nuff said.

No Caption Provided

Feats

Besides of the incredible hax Ben has he also has a lot of feats like strength, speed and durability that exceeds Jaime’s.

Speed:

Ben’s fasted alien is XLR8. XLR8 was so fast that he completely statued normal humans, and he was invisible to the naked eye:

If you want to move faster than human eyesight you need to move with at least 10000 miles per hour. This roughly translates to 13 times the speed of sound or 4,5 km per second. I doubt Jaime has reaction speed to counter this.

Strength:

Ben has 2 aliens he uses for when he needs extreme strength. Those being Humungosaur and Waybig. While Waybig is strong, his feats rely on statements. The best feat I could find was him throwing Vilgax, who probably weighs around a ton, into space:

https://i.gyazo.com/a92420cee563554854ab638b0ca48345.mp4

(The site doesn't recognize this link so you just need to copy the link)

Waybig also has an ultimate form, but he remains pretty featless still.

Humungosaur on the other hand, has a lot of feats regarding strength. He can lift Waybig, who is 100 feet high. He doesn’t have a specified weight but I think he is around 100 tons (I think he is as heavy as a blue whale, who is around the same length):

No Caption Provided

This is a statement by the writers of the show.

Ultimate Humungosaur did beat multiple Humungosaurs and also has missiles that can take normal Humungosaurs out. This is huge since Ultimate Humungosaur can beat and one-shot multiple 100+ tonners:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDUR8ynlMLc

Durability:

Ben has a lot of durable aliens, but they are in 2 categories. You have the aliens who are indestructible like Luke Cage, or aliens who have a huge regeneration factor like Wolverine. The most indestructible alien is probably Cannonbolt. When a ball he is almost indestructible. At 0:47 you can see Cannonbolt no-selling a strong punch even in his normal form. At 1:03 you see him still functioning while being shot at with energy beams. At 1:45 you see him surviving a big explosion and landing on earth surface with high speed. At 3:20 you can see Cannonbolt no-selling an electrical shock. At 4:02 you can see Cannonbolt enduring a punch from Kevin with his diamond arm. You get the idea:

Also, skip the part with the new series.

The other alien is Goop. He can basically survive everything, ranging from physical attacks to energy beams. Goop is just a pile of jelly and can reform himself anytime. You can in the video that Goop basically survives and practically no-sells attacks from a far stronger and larger opponent:

You can also count The Worst as very durable, but he still feels pain and is useless in combat, so Ben would never use him.

Skill

Ben’s skill is hard to say, because most aliens come with a certain kind of fighting skill. However, Ben is able to defeat species with the same species. Like when he first unlocked Kickin hawk, his self proclaimed best hand to hand fighter. He immediately defeated another Kickin Hawk:

Overall Ben’s aliens tend to be a little bit stronger than the species it originated from. Ben also has more skill than the aliens they originated from.

Powers

This list probably won’t involve all powers since I will forget some but here we go:

  • Elektrokinesis
  • Telepathy
  • Telekinesis
  • Cryokinesis
  • Flight
  • Digging capabilities
  • Enhanced strength
  • Enhanced durability
  • Enhanced leaping
  • Enhanced speed
  • Enhanced agility
  • Enhanced senses
  • Shockwave creation
  • Radiokinesis
  • Nucleokinesis
  • Atomic manipulation
  • Intangibility
  • Plasmakinesis
  • Wall climbing
  • Energy absorption
  • Night vision
  • Sonic manipulation
  • Lego manipulation
  • Telekinesis
  • Mind imagery
  • Knowing your opponents next move
  • Enhanced intellect
  • Long tongue
  • Duplication
  • Energy transformation
  • Indestructible shell
  • Rolling at high speeds
  • Invisibility
  • Light generation
  • Time manipulation
  • Time travel
  • Time stopping
  • Diamond manipulation
  • Duplication
  • Pocket dimension storage
  • Turning stuff into blasts when you eat it
  • Force fields
  • No need to breath
  • Skilled hand to hand combatant
  • Heat resistance
  • Technokinesis
  • Possession
  • Regeneration
  • Slime generation
  • Acid generation
  • Body alteration
  • Elasticity
  • Levitation
  • Gravity manipulation
  • Black hole generation
  • Small space manoeuvrability
  • Chemokinesis
  • Gas manipulation
  • Pyrokinesis
  • Size manipulation
  • Sharp claws
  • Neuroshock blasts
  • Weapon mastery
  • Magnetic manipulation
  • Moustache manipulation
  • Shapeshifting
  • Lava manipulation
  • Adaptability
  • Sleep manipulation
  • Dream manipulation
  • Nightmare manipulation
  • Enhanced stamina
  • Enhanced swimming speed
  • Sharp teeth
  • Night vision
  • Underwater breathing
  • Stretchable limbs
  • Hollow body
  • Bandage manipulation
  • Web generation
  • Sticky goo generation
  • Slime spitting
  • Plant manipulation
  • Seed manipulation
  • Vine manipulation
  • Tornado generation
  • Magic immunity
  • Indestructability
  • Stare frightening (Toepick can frighten you with his stare)
  • Technology fusing
  • Slippery body
  • Hydrokineses
  • Water temperature control
  • Cosmic power manipulation
  • Cosmic power generation
  • Temperature immunity
  • Hypnosis
  • Bat transformation
  • Infrared sight
  • Plant fusing
  • Plant bombs
  • Walking on water

Ben has access to all of these powers with the Omnitrix. There are enough powers he can use to one-shot Jaime or defend himself from Jaime’s attacks. I mean, moustache manipulation and Lego manipulation obviously solo Jaime and the multiverse with it. But seriously, technology fusing and magnetic manipulation are already huge troubles for Jaime. Intangibility, telepathy, telekinesis, nucleokinesis and indestructibility with it and you have a curbstomp. And I’m not even started on the ultimate forms. And I won’t until the next post, so I can use it to debunk some things

Strategy

Ben doesn’t kill, but rather uses incap or K.O.. This means that Ben will probably use a relatively weaker alien to see what Jaime can do, but not so weak that Jaime can kill him. Probably Goop or Cannonbolt since they are the most durable, but also have some sort of combat advantage. When Jaime uses his attacks and Ben sees what he can do, he chances into one of his favourite aliens. Probably Feedback or Heatblast. At this point he won’t hold back anymore since he can see that Jaime is also very durable and a threat. He can unleash a nuclear attack with Heatblast or something like that. If there is no other choice he just changes to Atomix and completely obliterates Jaime. He won’t likely do this since it is a last resort, but he can if he has to. Maybe this won’t be how it goes but the order “durable alien and checking what Jaime can do” – “using a more powerful alien to battle Jaime” – “Using an over the top alien to completely obliterate Jaime” is most likely correct.

Conclusion

Jaime is hugely outmatched and Ben wrecks. Ben has way too many powers and variables for the Scarab too handle and some of the aliens play in on weaknesses of the scarab too. Ben is also way smarter due to Grey Matter and Gravattack giving him an tactical advantage. Ben should also have the strength, speed and durability advantage on Jaime, putting Ben in a favourable spot. On top of that, Ben is the more skilled fighter overall and he is also a lot more experienced with the Omnitrix than Jaime is with the Scarab. The Scarab also doesn’t have the amount of hax that is necessary to beat Ben. Ben should take most of the wins or all the wins.

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BramvanElteren

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#16  Edited By BramvanElteren
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StormShadow_X

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#20  Edited By StormShadow_X

@bramvanelteren:

Introducing Jaime Reyes, The Blue Beetle

No Caption Provided

Teenager Jaime Reyes is the current inheritor of the Blue Beetle mantle, Beetle themed Heroes clad in blue. Unlike his predecessors however Jaime is assisted by his alien suit and partner Khaji-Da in being a new hero in the fight against cosmic and magical horrors while still having time to make it to first period.

Opening Thoughts on Jaime's Opponent - The 10th Dilemma

I usually would get straight into summary and some feats for my character but my opponent is a very special case due to how his powers work and the different beliefs I have with my opponent on the power level of his character ( I don't consider Ben to be truly High tier in the vain of characters like Thor,Superman or MMH while my opponent does) and I personally have always considered Ben a powerful but slightly overrated character in terms of his power for the very reason he's seen as an impressive combatant which is his ability and need to change form to access different abilities.

In theory Ben is a great versatile character similar to Jaime until you realize he will always have lose to gain something and seeing as he has 61 Aliens ( More than half will be useless) this will always be a hindrance with which match up he finds himself in against characters that are capable of instant access to their power set. He may always have a new trick up his sleeve but he will always be behind Jaime in more factors than not and even his most "Jack of all Trades" Aliens still aren't capable of fully over powering Jaime. Even more so "In Character" Ben is a smart and good fighter but he rarely changes between 10 or so Aliens in a fight not even against his strongest foes and only does so as a reactive measure after one alien has proved ineffective. Ben's the kind of character who rather beat you with someone that has an advantage then perform combination with his arsenal and has rarely done so.

To end off this opening section I'd like to go over the 20 Aliens in Ben's arsenal capable of helping him in any way in this fight IMO and why I think even then Jaime wouldn't have any trouble with them. If any of these claims come into question even after going over Jaime's own capabilities in his own section I'd be more than happy to defend them.

Upgrade (Hacking) -

The obvious counter to any foe whose powers are based on Tech which is nice and useful but frankly he lacks the ability to get close to or win in an engagement with Jaime, his only useful tool is attempting to hack the scarab but he wouldn't be able to get close to someone with such superior mobility and speed. Not to mention theirs an argument that him hacking the scarab just wouldn't work as it's hardly the usually basic machines he's hacked.

Lodestar (Magnetism) -

Ben's very own master of Magnetism more then likely wouldn't be able to control the Beetle suit as other equally as competent characters such as the second Doctor Polaris couldn't either and didn't even try instead using metal in the environment plus Jaime can make his own Magnetic Field. So Lodestar is pretty useless and adds nothing another Alien couldn't do better

Echo Echo (Duplication)-

Ben's most overrated underrated alien and Tactic. Going to get this out the way. Ben wouldn't duplicate to become multiple aliens in character, the one time he did was out of a combative situation so he could perform 3 task at once, Just Duplicating 3 times as Ben made his clones lose any semblance of strategy and team work with one another which caused them to lose to a foe Ben could usually beat alone, and finally He's never done it again due to all of the factors above. In other words this ability that many Ben 10 fans like to brink up is useless in this situation due to it actually causing more trouble then help. Not to mention He wouldn't get the chance to do such a thing in a middle of a fight especially due to echo echo clones have horrible durability.

Ghostfreak/Big Chill (Ghostly) -

Great powers but Jaime can indeed hurt intangible foes and see invisible ones ( or have plenty of other sensory options), and without those two abilities neither alien is keeping up with him in an air fight and are far from his more durable Aliens. Also wouldn't recommend attempting to possess Jaime ( Wouldn't get the chance but still) He has pretty great willpower and Khaji-Da will defiantly notice and won't hesitate to "Kill" Jaime for a few seconds. Not sure how that would effect someone like Ghost Freak but seeing as he can can only possess bodies with a "living" mind. I doubt the experience would go well for him.

Clockwork (Time Manipulation) -

Other then being slow and not very durable for an easy one shot, I feel his time manip wouldn't help him here. Even if he were to use it ( The scarab has countered aging and compensated for it already so that it's effects no longer work though I doubt want to have a shoot out with such a faster character whose capable of harming him). The most effective thing he can do is "Slowdown" time which would look like he's more speeding and while I believe he CAN fully stop time, it's not something Ben has ever shown to be capable of, Possibly just not finding out exactly how to do it.

Xlr8/Fast track (Speed) -

Most likely two of Ben's fastest Aliens on land...who have no way to hurt Beetle when his fighting style is based on being a flier. even without flight Beetle can defiantly keep up with them as while still a rookie he's had fire fights with characters like Lanterns of different emotional spectrum corps being pretty good at avoiding and tagging them even while barley knowing anything at all about his suit.

Astrodactyl/Jetray (Fliers) -

I believe these two are Ben's fastest and only combative flier Aliens, I don't see either being faster than Jaime in an air battle and both lack shields and versatility that will shift the fight in Jaime's favor as well as both not being good in CQC combat. Astrodactyl especially can lose if his jet pack is damaged.

Diamondhead/Cannonbolt (Durability) -

Some of Ben's most durable Aliens not counting his bricks. They shouldn't be too hard to get through, Diamondhead is weak to sonic attacks and doesn't have the mobility to fight a flying opponent and Cannonbolt while impressive I feel Jaime can crack through his defenses and if not Jaime has the muscle power to stop and throw him similar to Vilgax.

WayBig/Humungousaur (Strength) -

Undoubtedly Two of Ben's physically imposing aliens in power but more importantly size. Their simply big targets and turning into either would just make Ben lose faster when neither have the speed to keep up with Jaime due to both speed and air maneuverability. Both are also contenders for someone of the more durable Aliens but WayBig has clear weak spots that Jaime can use to his advantage and Humungousaur simply has no answer to a quick ranged fighter capable of hurting

Note* I find the idea that Humungousaur can lift Waybig something that the art director of the final series couldn't have thought through when making that statement as we see multiple times that Humungousaur has reached his limit with being that weigh far less such as his natural predator in Ben 10 Omniverse or other such enemies/items within the series. It's also likely it was a joke for the young boy who asked.

Wildvine/SwampFire/Goop (Healing Factor) -

Ben's aliens with great healing properties, honestly none of them have any way to hurt Jaime enough with their own fire power, and healing only delays the inevitable especially when they can be over taxed ( Swampfire and Wildvine) or have a clear and easy weakness to take advantage of (Goop's gravity stabilizer)

Note* Jaime can indeed attack plant life if he and/or the scarab feel threatened. I also doubt Swampfire or Wildvine would count as Jaime and Scarab would notice Ben is turning into multiple creatures and clearly isn't a "real" member of this species, regardless they share more in common sentient wise with Humans than plants.

Pesky Dust (Sleep Inducement) -

One of Ben's newer aliens that can spray dust that will make the opponent fall asleep and dream, not much to say and I doubt my opponent planned on using this but he's more than likely Ben's least durable Alien is already a risk, he can only use his abilities at close range which isn't possible due to his lack of speed and even if he were able to somehow get through any defenses the scarab had he'd be dealing with a morals of Scarab as it would fully take over which at worst will get Be Ko'd in a brutal way.

Atomix (Nuclear energy) -

Probably Ben's most impressive Alien that was added in the final series but nuclear attacks aren't exactly something Jaime is familiar with handling. I'd say he's Ben's most well rounded alien as he doesn't have a clear exploitable weakness like the others. His strongest Attack destroyed the roof of a skyscraper which is cool but not that impressive considering the character's Jaime has fought.

Gravattack (Gravity Manipulation) -

The Final Alien I consider to be a possible "threat" for Jaime but not that much. His Gravity manipulation if meh because he can hardly keep opponents in place and energy attacks ( something Jaime has in spades) are immune to his powers as well his obvious weak spot being the core which if attacked will cause him to explode and KO Ben If I remember correctly.

That's about it, those are my thoughts on the only 20 Aliens I see that could possibly make a difference in this fight as any others have very niche abilities(RipJaws, Grey Matter) or are one note and there are better aliens for Ben to use in place of them( Fourarms, Stinkfly). I also ignored Ben's elemental themed aliens that control Fire, Ice, electricity,etc for the next section as I believe they'd be quite ineffective.

Now on to the more impressive alien themed teenager.

Blue Beetle - All Versatile No Change Necessary

My biggest point on the superiority between Jaime and Ben is that Jaime is as versatile as Ben's entire arsenal barring Alien X but unlike Ben he has no need to lose one trait for another and anything he doesn't have can be countered it one way or another.

Speed/Reaction

Above in my post regarding the only notable Aliens I consider a threat to Jaime speed and maneuverability were key reasons why I thought most of those Aliens would have trouble with Jaime. Let's see why.

Jaime has pretty good reaction and flight speeds, I think this should show he should be able to contend or be superior to most Aliens on the speed front. The First Scan is already pretty impressive but while not solidly Lantern tier ( At least top lanterns) He's done well at dodging and reacting to their incredible swift and fast attacks.

Durability

I don't hold any illusion that Jaime can't very well be tagged especially with someone with so many abilities but I honestly think none of the aliens can harm the suit too much save for Waybig and maybe Humungousaur.

  • Already matching one of Ben's more durable aliens best feat with a crash from orbit
  • As Far as Ben's elemental attacks I doubt their packing anything Jaime hasn't gone against such as a -20 Fahrenheit Blizzard , a natural lightning bolt where he is fine the next page, and of course the aforementioned dropping from orbit and catching fire.
  • Don't forget about making a shield that was able to take hits from Guy Gardner as showed in the speed section, 2nd bullet point.

That should be fine for now considering I still think most of his Aliens will have a hard time tagging Jaime in the first place, but the ones that can 9/10 will have a hard time actually hurting him as their usually not built for damage.

Attack Potency/Versatility

Similar to Ben Jaime has multiple forms of attack but once again back to my over all point he doesn't have to lose one to use the other.

What I wanted to prove with this section is that Jaime is capable of everything Ben is capable in one clean package and then some and any thing he doesn't posses he at the very least has a match for it.

Khaji-Da - Adaptability/Teamwork

I decided to give this its own part as in my opinion it is the most important advantage a character needs to beat someone like Ben. With Master Control and a lack of time limit even with my thoughts on Ben having to lose to gain a new ability with every transformation He's still a very versatile character and his changes would prove a problem to any opponent that lacks the ability to adapt to multiple different forms of combat. Thankfully Jaime isn't alone and Khaji-Da as always is here to lend an helping hand.

I feel like I've given a decent amount of examples on the Scarab being a very versatile tool in preserving and helping Jaime outside of just shooting guns. The point I'm trying to get across is NOT that the scarab can counter any and all of Ben's aliens ( it doesn't need to as most aren't that impressive compared to it) but that it has faced varying challenges before new to it and along with Jaime have been able to adapt in a matter of seconds due to being great at scanning enemies as well as the versatility needed to counter them. This is what I think is going to carry Jaime against someone like Ben who has a large variety of aliens and abilities.

Early Considerations and counters

I'll just go over my initial opinion of the stances my opponent made in his first post but not real counters.

Omnitrix Aliens -

It seems I already had assumed most of the the aliens you'd bring up and the abilities you'd rely on while even including a few more. No need for me to counter them all again when I've already given my thoughts on them However ....

  • Grey Matter - Your argument for Grey Matter is kind of ridiculous, the scarab isn't some simple machine he can understand at a glance and that massively NLF. In some ways the scarab is almost as complex as an omnitrix and without his own inherit ability to scan tech from a distance the only way he'd be able to fully understand it is if he were able to sit down and examine it, some thing that clearly won't happen in the middle of a fight
  • Plant based Aliens - Already mentioned in the early section regarding aliens but Jaime can defiantly hurt plant based creatures if under attack and the scarab isn't stupid enough to stop attacking in the middle of a fight because a unknown enemy went from a Reptilian to a plant if it feels that it and Jaime are threatened. Not even sure how Ben would know something personal about the scarab.
  • Atomix- Impressive but by feat's he hasn't done anything Jaime has faced before and his strongest attack took off a roof for a building. You could argue he was holding back sure, but we have no reason to believe he can spam or just even just perform city wiping nukes and even if he could it would eventually deplete his power source due to Jaime being more than capable of surviving or evading them.
  • Lodestar - Jaime can still track Lodestar just not based on DNA, he still has various other observation tools, even so Lodestar isn't the most mobile alien to just vanish out of Jaime's sight.
  • The Omnitrix - Saving Ben is nice and all but Jaime isn't much of a killer himself and would only need to KO been out of his transformation which has been done many times to the young hero. Ben also keeps injuries from damage he takes as aliens as seen when his knee was scrapped as Humungousaur or his arm was broken as clockwork.
  • Ultimate Aliens - aren't going to change much with the only Notable ones being Echo Echo and Humungousaur but I'll wait to see how you debate them but seeings as how Ben can't use them anymore and I was still confident enough to agree to their use in this debate should speak volumes.

I'd also disagree with more than the 20 Aliens I listed being a threat at all to Jaime. Rath,Wildmutt,Stinkfly, Ripjaws, etc are all far out of their league against Jaime and Ben's higher tier aliens.

Feats -

I think you clearly underestimate Jaime's physical prowess and hope my section about his physical prowess have shown you he can keep up with the best of them.

  • Speed - Nothing particularly crazy was shown, when I have Jaime fighting and doing pretty well against members of the GL Corps and OMACs. Even more so as fast as XlR8 is he's useless against a sky bound opponent whose physically too durable for him.
  • Strength - Willing to admit both of Ben's physically stronger aliens should be able to out muscle Jaime ( Humungousaur is debatable), but doesn't much matter as Jaime is faster than both with the capabilities to hurt both rather easily from a distance.
  • Durability - I stand by being able to crack and somewhat harm Guy and his shields should show his blasters aren't being easily tanked by any of your aliens that can't rely on squishy like durability. Regardless CannonBolt can't do much to a flier whose faster than him and capable of just catching or knocking him away. Goop was a bad example for you to use as the scarab would clearly tell Jaime to go for his gravity field which would render goop unable to move or even just take the omnitrix symbol from his body incapacitating Ben and giving Jaime the win.
  • Skill - I'd consider both pretty even and teenage veterans who've adapted to their powers well, though Ben still has plenty of abilities from aliens he simply doesn't use or has no idea how to use but you could make the same argument for Jaime.

Power -

It's a nice list but not that impressive considering he can't use most of those together and as I've said is forced to usually trade one advantage for another when switching. I'd also add most of those powers show diversity but aren't going to be useful in this fight such as breathing under water or having a long tongue.

Strategy -

It's a sound strategy and a good one, may even work on a lesser opponent but as I've shown Jaime and his scarab are great at on the clock adapting and strategy in the heat of the moment and are an in sync team. For every new thing Ben does Jaime and the scarab will change up their plan as well to accommodate.

The order you presented for your is a bit naive honestly, as it seems to ride the idea everything will work out exactly as planned. I've already shown Jaime capable of taking on Ben's more defensive Aliens and outclass most of his mid Aliens, the only Alien I've seen that has a chance to over power Jaime would be WayBig and Maybe Atomix but honestly neither are that powerful as to where Jaime would stand zero chance.

Conclusion -

I'd suggest going back to the drawing board on the idea that Ben wrecks and outmatches Jaime in any substantial way. He's as fast if not faster than some of your faster aliens, Durable enough to take hits from your stronger Aliens and hits hard enough to hurt your most durable Aliens or at least disrupt them, to top it all off you're defiantly wrong in think the scarab doesn't have the hax to deal with Ben. The idea that turning into smarter Aliens at all is also a very flimsy argument, this is a battle with an opponent that out speeds most of your arsenal and can track you wherever you go. You think Ben will have to chance to turn into Grey Matter or Gravattack ( Who I'm not sure why you mentioned as being one of his smarter aliens unless I'm missing something, maybe you mean Brain Storm) in the middle of a high paced fight? Not likely

Final Opening Considerations

I'll be honest with you, I think Jaime has this in the bag and feel that you're underestimating him and overestimating Ben by a huge margin. I welcome you to prove me wrong.

I've shown -

  • Jaime's ability to adapt and his own pure versatility to counteracts Ben own transformations that are limited by not being able to call upon all his abilities at once.
  • I've shown Jaime has a huge advantage on almost every relevant Alien in Ben's arsenal even if he has one disadvantage such as WayBig's clear strength advantage but lack of versatility or speed and just being an easier target to hit.
  • I've also dabbled in the fact that while Ben is very versatile and quick to switch Alien's he's often the type of guy to play paper scissors Rock not chess. He'd rather find a perfect counter than switch between 20 Aliens in the span of 1 fight and unfortunately he doesn't have a single Alien who can perfectly counter Jaime.

The Ball is your court, Let's do these heroes proud.

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@stormshadow_x: Nice opener. I'm going to start making my second post monday

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#24  Edited By StormShadow_X

@bramvanelteren: Thanks, yeah no Problem. Sorry for any notifications you received while fixing grammatical errors in the post or broken links

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This is interesting

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T4V

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@edgelord91: Thank you, I tried not to make it a true counter post yet and bet my opponent will have something just as good.

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Post 2: Ultimate alien (and counters but that doesn’t sound cool)

Before I begin, I would like you guys to know that it is very hard to find the source of these feats. I tried to find all of them, but sometimes I can only provide statements. It’s not like this is a MCU movie with every scene on YouTube. I hope you guys can believe me when I state things about Ben.

In the weekend I’ve thought about this battle a lot. I have to say that I’ve underestimated Jaime a lot. I still think that Ben wins most of the fights, but definitely not 10/10. More like 7 or 8/10. I wasn’t too familiar with Jaime, I have to admit that. I only read books with him in it as a side character and I played Injustice. I’ve learned a lot about him by of StormShadow’s opener. I have to pick up a volume ASAP. But Ben still wins. I don’t think his feats compete to anything Ben has done and could do.

Debunks

Master control

First of all, the master control. You said that it is unlikely for Ben to use the master control. This is not true. Ben loves master control. He doesn’t always have master control, and that is why he won’t use it. It isn’t out of character for Ben to transform into XLR8 to come up close, which should be easy for Ben since the baseball game feat wasn’t his most impressive one (coming back on this later), and then transform into Upgrade who could start hacking him (also coming back on this later). He could also turn into Jetray, who also is way faster than Jaime, grab Jaime and then turn into Humungosaur who then could dunk Jaime out of existence. There are loads of ways for Ben to combine his aliens to defeat Jaime.

XLR8

Then your argument about XLR8. XLR8 is way beyond lantern speed, maybe even on par with Flash. There is a statement that Jetray can travel across the galaxy before the Omnitrix could time out:

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In this battle there is no time limit, but the normal Omnitrix timed out after 1 or 2 minutes. I don’t see Jaime travelling across the galaxy in 2 minutes. XLR8 is even faster than Jetray:

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You can clearly see that XLR8 is too fast for Jaime to dodge or tag. Saying that he lacks strength is also a stupid claim. His lifting strength might not be much, but he definitely has enough striking strength to put Jaime down. He was able to hurt Exo-Skull, who is strong and durable enough to overpower guys like Four arms. However, most of his strength comes from his speed.

Upgrade

Now Upgrade. You said that Upgrade couldn’t hack Jaime because it’s too advanced and because he lacks the ability to come up close. This is far from the truth. Upgrade can hack all kinds of tech, not only human made. This wouldn’t make sense because Upgrade is an alien himself, so he would definitely be able to do so. Saying he can’t come up close is also not true. Upgrade is able tom morph himself because he’s made of nanites. He basically liquid. Even if Jaime would shoot him, he could make a hole in his body and still walk. Or he changes into XLR8 and when he’s close, he changes to Upgrade to fuse with the scarab.

Jetray

In the scan I showed at the part about XLR8 you can see that Jetray is way faster than Jaime. So saying Jaime outspeeds Jetray is not true. Jetray may not possess physical strength, but his blasts are also not to be underestimated. They should at least hurt Jaime, who was visibly hurt by a lightning strike. I won’t make an argument about Astrodactyl because he is useless between all Ben’s other aliens.

Cannonbolt

I actually don’t see how Jaime is going to break his armor. Sure, Jaime can see his weaknesses, but Cannonbolt’s weaknesses only apply when he’s not a ball. When he’s a ball he’s nearly unstoppable. Jaime isn’t strong enough to hold him in his place. There is also nothing to indicate that Cannonbolt’s armor is weaker than Green Lantern constructs, because he hasn’t faced stakes that high. But you can’t just say that Jaime can breach his armor because Jaime kind of damaged a green lantern construct.

Waybig/ Humungosaur

The arguments you made against Waybig and Humungosaur were that they were slow and that they can’t fight someone who is in the air. Both are wrong. Humungosaur can’t fly, but he can alter his size to become 60 feet, so he can already get closer to Jaime. He can also jump very high for his species. His ultimate form can even shoot missiles out of his hands, so he can fight a long-range fight. I also stand by my argument that Humungosaur could lift Waybig.

Waybig can shoot cosmic blasts, that can destroy a planet:

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There are no feats indicating that Jaime can no-sell an attack like this. His best feat is getting hit with an asteroid, according to your own post. His ultimate form can also fly, so I don’t see why Waybig couldn’t solo. His only weak point is his fin, which Ben is very aware of and he blocks hits to the fin all the time while being Waybig.

Wildvine/ Swampfire

First of all I would like to say that if Ben changes into an alien, he changes into them on a molecular level. His entire DNA changes. That means they have nothing in common with humans anymore except for Ben being the alien. Also, these guys are stronger than you imagine. Especially Swampfire. He pulled himself out of a dimensional portal, which probably requires exceptional strength (You guys need to take my word for this, I couldn’t find it). That is definitely more than the 10 tons Jaime can lift. Swampfire can also make himself intangible, regenerate and stretch his body parts, so he will be a challenge for Jaime.

Wildvine doesn’t add anything to the fight.

Atomix

You are lowballing this guy. That may be his best feat, but he was holding back. He just needed to beat ultimate Spider-monkey, so he wouldn’t just destroy the entire planet for that. He is stated to be Ben’s second most powerful alien, only behind Alien X. If he is more powerful than Waybig that should mean he can destroy planets, right? Atomix is also way stronger than most of Ben’s normal aliens because he was able to one-shot ultimate Humungosaur, who on his part was hanging with multiple 100 tonners, as I’ve shown you in the previous post. He was also able to generate enough heat to break Ultimate Spider-monkey’s webs, which could hold Vilgax:

Atomix is a hard opponent to beat, especially for Jaime who relies on weak spots too much and isn’t a huge threat physically. Oh, and he created a functional mini sun:

No Caption Provided

If he throws this bad boy on Jaime, it’s over.

Gravattack

Gravity manipulation might not have a huge effect on Jaime, but Gravattack still isn’t a pushover. His weak spot is covered by his rock body, so he still is very durable. Also, show me a scan of Jaime surviving in a black hole. I’d like to see that.

Echo Echo

Alright, I must admit. Ben using duplication to transform into other aliens isn’t something he would do in character. But Echo Echo is still an useful alien. His durability is not that great, but he can create forcefields to protect himself. And the sound waves might even be effective. Show me a scan of Jaime no-selling sound-based attacks. He is still human after all. I’m also pretty sure that the scarab can hear too.

Ghostfreak/ Big chill

Alright, Jaime can hurt them. But to do that the Scarab always takes a second or two. Ben has aliens he can use to come up close in this fight. Jaime can still be possessed. I don’t know if Ghostfreak gets hurt if his host dies.

Clockwork

Ben might not be able to stop time, but he can slow it down to some extent. This makes Jaime slower, but it makes Ben way faster. And the time rays might not have an effect on the scarab, it will affect Jaime. He’s a person, he ages with or without the scarab. Or Clockwork just sends Jaime to the time when the Big Ben exploded and Jaime and the Scarab both die. And if a character hasn’t shown something doesn’t mean they can’t do it at all. It isn’t completely confirmed that he can stop time, but he most likely can:

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Lightning

You posted a scan of Jaime getting hit by lightning. Sure, totally fine. But Jaime was absolutely not no selling that. It hurt him, so he doesn’t have electrical immunity. And he was visibly struggling against a guy who could make tornadoes. Guys like Terraspin can do this too. His wings weren’t even working in the tornado.

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Brainstorm

I did swap Brainstorm and Gravattack, excuse me for that. Still, I wanted to talk about him. He can create forcefields that are strong enough to hold ultimate Cannonbolt off, so Jaime can’t hurt him unless he has another cool gizmo you didn’t mention. But Brainstorm can also analyse opponents, meaning he can do almost the same as Jaime. He can analyse his attack pattern and see his weak spots. He can turn into another alien later on to play into Jaime’s weaknesses.

Countering Jaime

Adaptability

Like you said, Jaime has the ability to adapt to every opponent he faces, but he can’t do this instantly. The scarab always needs a few seconds to adapt, and like I said Ben has aliens who can use this second to come closer, and with master control he can change into aliens at the speed of thought. And for those who don’t know, that is faster than a few seconds. The scarab can’t work at speeds this high. So seeing their anatomy won’t be a huge factor in this fight.

The Omnitrix also isn’t something with a clear weakness except being removed from the owner. And I’m pretty sure that removing it can’t be done in a few seconds. Or you just cut it off, but 1. It’s out of character for Jaime to use his blades, 2. The Omnitrix still has a failsafe so that it can’t be removed and 3. Ben isn’t stupid, so he wouldn’t become human in this fight. So that wouldn’t be an option.

The 2 pieces above show that Jaime can’t really adapt to Ben with master control. Sure, Jaime would win against almost all aliens individually, except Atomix, Gravattack, Waybig, Feedback and maybe Humungosaur who could arguably solo, but Jaime can’t handle Ben with master control. Even if Ben wouldn’t use the aliens mentioned above, he would still win at least half of all fights.

Weapons

The blasters could be useful, but Jaime needs to hit Ben with it first. Ben won’t let that happen, especially not with master control.

A Cryogun won’t have an effect on a lot of aliens, since a lot of them are temperature based, too strong, intangible, have counters, can duplicate, are too fast to get hit etc. Also, isn’t this PIS? Aren’t red lanterns supposed to be able to generate heat?

Yes, the electricity gun. Can be useful, but that robot was already heavily damaged. Jaime also seems to need to tag the thing he wants to use it on, and Ben won’t let that happen.

While the blades aren’t used in character, they also won’t possess a threat. Some aliens are straight up bulletproof, too fast too tag, intangible etc.

Jaime can use the nukes, but a lot of aliens can no sell it. Gravattack, Cannonbolt, Atomix, Big Chill, Ghostfreak, Goop, Swampfire and maybe Humungosaur, Diamondhead and Waybig can survive this or no-sell this. Feedback can even absorb it.

Strength

Jaime is a class 10 character, while Ben is a class 100 character with at least Waybig, Humungosaur and Atomix. A lot of aliens are also a little bit stronger, those being Diamondhead, Swampfire, Four arms, Bullfrag, Bloxx, Rath, Shocksquatch, Frankenstrike, Chromastone and more. Almost all of Ben’s strength-based aliens are stronger than Jaime. And I bet Ripjaws is stronger underwater too.

Speed

XLR8 is a whole lot faster, I already said that. Same goes for Jetray. I don’t think Fastrack is as fast as Jaime but who knows.

Durability

Jaime’s is not durable enough for this fight. Granted, he survived an asteroid falling on him, But Cannonbolt’s best feat is that he was the asteroid falling on the surface of a planet. And then you have Waybig, who destroyed a planet like it was another Tuesday. Ben also has an alien made out of diamond, which is the strongest metal on earth. If that weren’t enough, Diamondhead can also create diamond structures like an actual Green Lantern. That’s a lot of durability you have right there. What I’m trying to say is that Ben has way too many firepower for Jaime to win This fight.

Absorbing energy

Jaime has a lot of energy-based weapons, but none of them can hurt 1 specific alien. The alien who absorbed the Big Bang. Feedback. Feedback can absorb a ridiculous amount of energy and he is an underrated OP character that I haven’t thought about in the previous post, and neither did you according to your list. Jaime can throw every energy-based weapon he has at Feedback, but it won’t work. Feedback has a lot more energy output than Jaime can dream of, even with the nukes he has. This will be a huge counter against Jaime’s weapons.

Personality traits

I decided to make this section to make it clear what’s in character for Ben and what is not.

It is in character for Ben to use master control. He likes master control and if he has access to it, he will use it. He is also a lot more confident with it, like when he fought Kevin and Vilgax at the same time. It’s also in character for him to not be serious in a fight, but he does watch out when fighting a new opponent. He looks at his options carefully. It is also in character for Ben to become very serious if he or other people are in danger. In this fight there are no other people in the crossfire, but Ben kinda is. Jaime won’t kill him, but he can K.O. Ben. Not that Ben would give Jaime the opportunity. It is also in character for Ben to use less strong aliens. He can change into Alien X whenever he wants in the show, but he doesn’t because that makes it boring. So he won’t just change into Atomix and finish it.

Like I already said, it is out of character for Ben to change into Atomix or Waybig immediately when the fight begins. That would make it boring. It is, however, out of character for Ben to risk losing. Ben wants to win so he can tease Gwen. It’s also not in character for Ben to use ultimate forms, because he’s terrified of them. He only uses them when absolutely necessary because he’s a mature person.

Ultimate forms

There are 8 aliens Ben has who have an ultimate form. I don’t think he needs them in this fight, but my opponent thinks that Ben does. Because the guy who can manipulate time, create black holes, destroy planets, and absorb the big bang is a mid tier. Lmao. But let’s continue. Like I said, Ben has 8 ultimate aliens. Those are:

  • · Big Chill
  • · Cannonbolt
  • · Echo Echo
  • · Humungosaur
  • · Spider-monkey
  • · Swampfire
  • · Waybig
  • · Wildmutt

These aliens are evolutions of their normal versions. They have abilities that their normal forms have not. I will go over all of them.

Big Chill

Ultimate Big Chill can do everything normal Big Chill can do. He has ice breath, he can fly and can become intangible. But ultimate Big Chill can also breath fire and shoot fire out of his hands. He can also combine this with his ice breath, creating fire that is “so cold that it burns”. This version of Big Chill is also much faster. His Ice breath is also colder and faster than that of his base form.

Cannonbolt

Ultimate Cannonbolt is basically normal Cannonbolt but more durable and with spikes on his shell. He can also shoot his spikes, however, Ben never did this. He is also a little bit faster than his normal counterpart, but he is slower due to his heavier shell.

Echo Echo

Ultimate Echo Echo can do the same as his normal counterpart, but is stronger, more durable etcetera. But he has sonic disks. He can use these sonic disks to hurt an opponent. Last time I checked Jaime wasn’t immune to sound. Kevin in his mutated form was hurt by it. Echo Echo can create forcefields, fly, and duplicate himself. He can also use his sonic disks to destroy things like a tank. Duplication will eventually get to Jaime.

Humungosaur

Ultimate Humungosaur is an absolute beast. He is way stronger than normal Humungosaur. In fact, he could handle a lot of them at the same time (see previous post). He can fire missiles from his hands. He has a tail with a spiked ball on it. He has additional armor on his head and his chest, and he has spiked armor on his back. He can create earthquakes by clapping his hands.

Spider-monkey

Ultimate Spider-monkey is way stronger than normal Spider-monkey. He can shoot webs out of his mouth and tail. These webs were strong enough to hold Vilgax, who was strong enough to destroy a Mount Rushmore head with 1 punch:

No Caption Provided

This Spider-monkey is also faster and more durable than his normal version. His webs have no limit. He can also climb walls and leap very high.

Swampfire

Ultimate Swampfire is logically faster, stronger, and more durable than normal Swampfire. He can also fly and still has limited pyrokinesis. This pyrokinesis is already stronger than the pyrokinesis of base Swampfire. He can shoot Methane out of his hands. He can also control vines and throw bombs, making him a worthy opponent.

Waybig

Ultimate Waybig is even bigger than normal Waybig. He’s also stronger, faster, and more durable. His cosmic rays are also stronger. This says a lot since normal Waybig could destroy a planet with his cosmic rays. Ultimate Waybig also has the ability to fly, and he can spin around fast enough to repel energy attacks. And he has cosmic disks he can throw. He can use this to cut things like legs off.

Wildmutt

Ultimate Wildmutt didn’t change a lot. He is stronger faster and more durable than normal Wildmutt, but the only other changes he went through is that he has a sharp tail, sharp claws, and sharper teeth. He also has enhanced hearing, not only enhanced smell. Enhanced hearing came with the ability to speak.

The ultimate aliens will prove useful against Jaime, even though Ben doesn’t need them to win. I think they are complete overkill. While Ben vs Jaime would be a fair fight, Ben with ultimate aliens stomps. Ultimate Waybig could solo. He has everything he needs. He can fly, he has cosmic blasts that could obliterate Jaime, He is stronger than Jaime and he could easily block attacks to his fin. Ultimate Humungosaur, Big Chill, Swampfire, Spider-monkey, Echo Echo and Cannonbolt could all do some damage to Jaime, and maybe even win 1/10 fights. Ultimate Wildmutt is basically Daredevil as a tiger, so he contributes nothing, but he’s still nice to have.

Also, keep in mind that Atomix throws these dudes around like they are insects.

Master control

In this section I will talk about the master control. I do this to show how Ben can utilise it to beat Jaime.

But first, what is master control? Master control can be unlocked by voice command, and it gives the user of the Omnitrix access to all the functions it has. That means that there is no time limit and unlimited switching between aliens. The abilities of master control are best showed in this video where Ben fight both Vilgax and Kevin 11, 2 of his most dangerous enemies:

You can see here that Ben uses the master control quite effectively. While Ben was unable to beat Vilgax with any of his aliens, he could hold his own against Vilgax and Kevin with master control. With the speed of thought, which is way faster than Jaime can use his guns.

Ben can use this to make combo’s of aliens who can beat Jaime. An example for this is combining XLR8 and Upgrade. This way Ben can get close enough to let Upgrade hack the scarab. Or Jetray and Waybig. Ben can fly to Jaime at high speed, of which Jaime can’t keep up, and when he’s close he changes into Waybig to grab Jaime and crush him with his hands. Or just obliterate him with the cosmic storms. Lots of possibilities right here.

As you can see, the master control is incredibly dangerous for Jaime, Ben’s enemies and basically everyone.

Final thoughts

I still think Ben should win. It won’t be an absolute wreck, like I said in my opener, but still a solid 8/10. Jaime has powers that work on most people, but Ben has 61 aliens he can use. He is not most people. Jaime takes way too long to adapt to an opponent. That makes a lot of difference. Ben can change at the speed of thought with master control. Ben is not like the other opponents Jaime has faced before, and that will be why he loses this fight.

While I underrated Jaime, I think you did too with Ben. Saying he isn’t a high tier shows that you don’t know enough about him or you’re just stubborn, I don’t know. Ben is a 100+ tonner, has Flash-like speed, has planet-level durability, has galaxy-level energy absorption and he probably has the most amount of hax in any fiction. And Jaime? 10+ tonner, lightspeed, comet-level durability and city-level energy absorption. He does have, hax, but not the crazy amount Ben has.

Ben outmatches Jaime in everything except Jaime’s ability to adapt, which is his only real counter here. I don’t doubt Jaime can pull out a win, but most of the fights will go to Ben. The only fights that will not go to Ben is when he’s not paying enough attention, but when Ben’s magically transporting to another planet he will be serious.

Conclusion

Ben is Jaime’s superior and Ben will win most of the fights.

I’ve shown:

  • Ben’s counters to a lot of Jaime’s attacks like the cryo gun and the electricity gun, and also his counters to the adaptability Jaime has.
  • Ben’s usage of the master control and how he could use it to defeat Jaime.
  • Ben’s ultimate aliens and their additional powers.
  • Ben’s personality and what he would do in a fight with Jaime.
  • Ben’s superiority in strength, speed, durability and energy output.

I can now safely conclude that Ben would win in a fight against Jaime. Like you would say, the ball is your court.

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T4V

good day

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#34  Edited By BramvanElteren
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TAEP and T4V

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#37  Edited By StormShadow_X
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@stormshadow_x: I thought 3 posts, so just a finisher after this. But 4 posts is also fine.

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#45  Edited By StormShadow_X

@bramvanelteren Here ya go

No Caption Provided

Post #1 - Heroes, Aliens and Context

Firstly, I understand that it is hard to find feats for Ben seeing as he is a long running cartoon character spanning over 5 seasons and no respect thread for most of his aliens. I had hoped you had any feats you wanted ready as to not put too much strain on you having to go through the entire series for one feat, however I honestly feel relying on statements with no backing or context will be the downfall of Ben's Argument, as I consider myself a pretty decent Ben 10 Fan for the first 3 series and some of Omniverse and I stand by everything I've said thus far but context is key to a character like Ben as we'll all see in the future of this post.

To my opponent, audience, and the rest who don't care lets get through this together.

*Note: For any newer Viners that are unfamiliar with comicvine's link system, remember that words highlighted greens are links.

Debunks that are Alien in Origin

Master control

First of all, the master control. You said that it is unlikely for Ben to use the master control. This is not true. Ben loves master control. He doesn’t always have master control, and that is why he won’t use it. It isn’t out of character for Ben to transform into XLR8 to come up close, which should be easy for Ben since the baseball game feat wasn’t his most impressive one (coming back on this later), and then transform into Upgrade who could start hacking him (also coming back on this later). He could also turn into Jetray, who also is way faster than Jaime, grab Jaime and then turn into Humungosaur who then could dunk Jaime out of existence. There are loads of ways for Ben to combine his aliens to defeat Jaime.

I feel like my point was missed, I'm not at all saying Ben won't use master control but he's had something akin to it since the end of Alien Force where he's able to change on the fly and clearly has longer than 10 minutes in a form. He's had the best part of Master Control for more the series then he hasn't. He still carries the same mindset of paper scissors rock and rarely takes advantage of using his Aliens abilities to fight an opponent. I'll prove this by showing two fight where Ben was defiantly determined to win.

  • Ben Vs Vilgax - As you can see Ben is fully capable of changing Aliens in this fight on the fly but instead of using them like how you're suggesting, He's being very reactive and just finding a good counter instead of using any advantages he has together to beat Vilgax and only wins in the second part by using one Alien in Diamondhead ( Because of some BS that he has practice but still). Ben can be a fine tool but he often fights like a hammer.
  • Ben Vs Aggregor - This fight helps my point about Jaimes "All in one" Power set more. Ben continues through the entire fight that clearly isn't working to beat Aggregor( Who has the ability of 5 Aliens) with one alien and pure might and despite it not working he tries until he is Ko'd out of his transformation which is very possible and has happened many times throughout his career. Just commenting on that for my KO Argument.

At both points Ben has at least 20 Aliens to choose from but only changes to react to losing not to proactively win and seize an opportunity.

XLR8

Then your argument about XLR8. XLR8 is way beyond lantern speed, maybe even on par with Flash. There is a statement that Jetray can travel across the galaxy before the Omnitrix could time out:

Oh boy here we go, starting with the statements the series itself never backs up. Firstly don't you think its weird to say an Alien can "casually" break the sound barrier than say he could cross the universe before the watch times out, roughly idk maybe 10 to 15 minutes? Not to mention that is defiantly a travel speed feat and not applicable to combat as we have seen Jetray hit many times from attacks that are defiantly not light speed. ( 1 , 2) Now I'm sure you could try and argue the second one since it's Vilgax but he clearly wasn't using any enhanced Xlr8 level speed to hit Jetray and his beams aren't light speed themselves.

You can clearly see that XLR8 is too fast for Jaime to dodge or tag. Saying that he lacks strength is also a stupid claim. His lifting strength might not be much, but he definitely has enough striking strength to put Jaime down. He was able to hurt Exo-Skull, who is strong and durable enough to overpower guys like Four arms. However, most of his strength comes from his speed.

You just have a picture of him circling people, is it more impressive in motion? Regardless not only could Jaime just resort to using an AOE attack but I think you should also look into Lanterns if you're under the assumption they aren't top tiers in speed when Kyle alone has tagged both Jay Garrick and was able to keep up with Wally West who is was the fastest Flash at the time or Guy was able to catch up and catch Lightspeed ship. Jaime without barley knowing his Scarab as I've shown was able to hold his own in fire fights with these guys. While Jaime did lose the fight with Guy, Guy was blood lusted trying to kill him and Jaime and the Scarab both just wanted to get away or keep him at bay which as you saw in my first opener, he did a decent job.

Do you have anything that solidly puts XlR8 at being fast enough to get to the end of the universe as back when he can't at peak we haven't even seen perform something like that on a smaller scale like earth?

Upgrade

Now Upgrade. You said that Upgrade couldn’t hack Jaime because it’s too advanced and because he lacks the ability to come up close. This is far from the truth. Upgrade can hack all kinds of tech, not only human made. This wouldn’t make sense because Upgrade is an alien himself, so he would definitely be able to do so. Saying he can’t come up close is also not true. Upgrade is able tom morph himself because he’s made of nanites. He basically liquid. Even if Jaime would shoot him, he could make a hole in his body and still walk. Or he changes into XLR8 and when he’s close, he changes to Upgrade to fuse with the scarab.

Similar to Grey Matter you're working on an NLF argument saying he could hack something just as advance as the omnitrix. What is Upgrades best hacking feat on such a complex machine? And Nanites you say? Like the OMACS? So that should mean the scarab will alert Jaime of this and simply use a magnetic field to incapacitate him even if he couldn't hit him though that is just as unlikely as I've shown Jaime is capable of AOE ( Electricity at that which wouldn't be nice for Upgrade) or attacks that aren't just simple beams.

Jetray

In the scan I showed at the part about XLR8 you can see that Jetray is way faster than Jaime. So saying Jaime outspeeds Jetray is not true. Jetray may not possess physical strength, but his blasts are also not to be underestimated. They should at least hurt Jaime, who was visibly hurt by a lightning strike. I won’t make an argument about Astrodactyl because he is useless between all Ben’s other aliens.

Already given my thoughts on Jetray's speed that only has the backing of a statement and not the series itself which clearly contradicts it. Also it seems the crew of Ben 10 have different views on Ben's Alien as I can't find who Christopher Phillips is ( mind giving a link?) Derrick J. Wyatt who has also given you some of your other statements disagree's and believes neither are capable of that level of speed and it was retconned due to it being a mistake in the the second series. So If we're taking statement's by their word then this debunks any lightspeed feats you have and if we aren't there goes quite a few other claims you'll have.

* Note: Quite a few of the statements about Ben, I and possibly my opponent will bring up are from the art director ( But apparently he might have done more such as help create newer aliens and modify the abilities of older ones) Derrick J. Wyatt he answers all these questions on his personal time on this site . Personally I think he can say some contradicting things but I see no reason why if my opponent plans on using these statements that I can't as well unless of course they contradict with the series itself.

Cannonbolt

I actually don’t see how Jaime is going to break his armor. Sure, Jaime can see his weaknesses, but Cannonbolt’s weaknesses only apply when he’s not a ball. When he’s a ball he’s nearly unstoppable. Jaime isn’t strong enough to hold him in his place. There is also nothing to indicate that Cannonbolt’s armor is weaker than Green Lantern constructs, because he hasn’t faced stakes that high. But you can’t just say that Jaime can breach his armor because Jaime kind of damaged a green lantern construct.

It's simple really Guy's shields have better feats than Cannonbolt, unless you're willing to prove other wise. Even Guy's passive Shields are strong enough to stop him from getting destroyed by Lobo the same Lobo capable of giving character's like superman a beating now I'm clearly not trying to say Jaime could do better but his blast as I've shown hurt and I'm not sure I've seen anything that Cannonbolt could over power, at the very least he's not walking rolling through it.

Waybig/ Humungosaur

The arguments you made against Waybig and Humungosaur were that they were slow and that they can’t fight someone who is in the air. Both are wrong. Humungosaur can’t fly, but he can alter his size to become 60 feet, so he can already get closer to Jaime.

Or Jaime just flies higher? Just a thought.

He can also jump very high for his species. His ultimate form can even shoot missiles out of his hands, so he can fight a long-range fight. I also stand by my argument that Humungosaur could lift Waybig.

Jumping is literally one of the worst positions you'd want to be in against someone faster than you that can fly. You are free to stand him being able to lift Waybig as much as you please but that doesn't make it true seeing as how Humungosaur couldn't keep up with the weight of a tyranopede something much smaller than WayBig and I doubt it has even anywhere near close the weight. ( 1:42 in case the YT link messed up)

Waybig can shoot cosmic blasts, that can destroy a planet:

No Caption Provided

There are no feats indicating that Jaime can no-sell an attack like this. His best feat is getting hit with an asteroid, according to your own post. His ultimate form can also fly, so I don’t see why Waybig couldn’t solo. His only weak point is his fin, which Ben is very aware of and he blocks hits to the fin all the time while being Waybig.

This is all nice and good but not only does Ben never performed the feat himself but he wouldn't do it in character and as per your opener Ben's not going to Kill Jaime which would be the only use for a planet busting attack.

Now Jaime also has planet busting capabilities but wouldn't use them in character or to kill which is why I haven't brought them up. There's also a clear difference with being able to fly and being a better flier. So Way Big while fighting and flying is going to cover his fins and do what? He can't fire projectiles with out his hands and even as a flier he's still a big target to get hit by neural scramblers that bypass durability. He's just a big target who Jaime can still hurt so I'm not seeing the argument? Being Ben's most powerful Not Alien X Alien is cool but it due to being able to solve so many of his problems with just being physically more powerful and durable. Way Big has never had to deal with someone who can fly, has speed, is already small enough to avoid him and attack his weakspot with ranged capabilities.

*Note: There are even more issues with this feat as it appeared in a non canon game with multiple inconsistencies and context therefore making a really poor use of the feat as it's more than arguably invalid and flawed on multiple levels, allow me to break it down, firstly opponent and audience use this video as it is the full cut scene movie of the non canon game

  • Azmuth creator of all of Ben's watches implies Ben can't beat Albedeo(The Evil Way Big in your gif) without an amp from a device ancient members of his race built (4:51)
  • Albedo while in a rage can't even destroy an asteroid in the same game while raging out with the same attack (12:44)
  • We once again get confirmation that without a buff from the device he has no chance against Evil WayBig (25:10)

So as we can see not only is this feat not canon but it's source material is very questionable.

Wildvine/ Swampfire

First of all I would like to say that if Ben changes into an alien, he changes into them on a molecular level. His entire DNA changes. That means they have nothing in common with humans anymore except for Ben being the alien. Also, these guys are stronger than you imagine. Especially Swampfire. He pulled himself out of a dimensional portal, which probably requires exceptional strength (You guys need to take my word for this, I couldn’t find it). That is definitely more than the 10 tons Jaime can lift. Swampfire can also make himself intangible, regenerate and stretch his body parts, so he will be a challenge for Jaime.

I never said he didn't change to them on a molecular level, I only stated your argument that changing in front of Jaime and the Scarab was a ridiculous argument as if they'd just stop attacking someone who threatened them because he clearly has the ability to turn into different creatures. Not going to touch on the "10 ton argument" yet and I'd wish you'd stop making these claims when you've made it clear you're not the mos knowledgeable on Blue Beetle and already underestimated him. We've already discussed why intangibility won't help any alien and his regeneration can be over taxed. Being able to stretch isn't going to help with someone who can fly and is faster.

I'd also like to come back to context is everything, I'd ask that you'd find the feat you're speaking on if possible as anything can sound more impressive without context around it.

Atomix

You are lowballing this guy. That may be his best feat, but he was holding back. He just needed to beat ultimate Spider-monkey, so he wouldn’t just destroy the entire planet for that. He is stated to be Ben’s second most powerful alien, only behind Alien X. If he is more powerful than Waybig that should mean he can destroy planets, right?

With all due respect, you're highballing him, What proof do you have he is capable of planet busting ( something we've already discussed Ben won't do in character) "Being" more powerful could mean a lot of things equating it to planet busting is just as assumption on your part and not even a good one hell Humugosaur is more "Powerful" than diamond head yet only one was able to beat Vilgax, are you assuming Diamondhead can lift more? This is without relying on the non canon feat we spoke about earlier.

Atomix is also way stronger than most of Ben’s normal aliens because he was able to one-shot ultimate Humungosaur, who on his part was hanging with multiple 100 tonners, as I’ve shown you in the previous post. He was also able to generate enough heat to break Ultimate Spider-monkey’s webs, which could hold Vilgax:

Ultimate Humgosaur did not hold his own against multiple 100 toners ( Also sorry I forgot to add your the video's didn't post but I'm aware of the fight) he zoned them out and as soon as they dog piled him he was instantly out of the fight. The Video for anyone interested if you haven't seen it already but it's not nearly as impressive as my opponent would like you to believe.

Atomix is a hard opponent to beat, especially for Jaime who relies on weak spots too much and isn’t a huge threat physically. Oh, and he created a functional mini sun:

No Caption Provided

If he throws this bad boy on Jaime, it’s over.

Sorry but no he didn't not sure why that respect thread he has say's that but it's not nearly that impressive. Context is as always important, He made a sphere of energy that gives of ultra violet light to harm ghost and vampire themed Aliens, it doesn't have the actual heat, gravitational pull, or anything else a sun has. If it did it would have killed Ben ( When he transformed back) and the other aliens with him. Proof It literally in no way is like a sun save for I guess the solar energy it gives off to harm creatures weak to the sun light which as I'm sure you've guessed isn't Jaime.

Jaime doesn't need weak spots, they just make it easier, Hell Atomix's body is clearly made of some metal, he's already weak to Magnetism which I've shown Jaime has, and he's not doing anything Jaime hasn't handled before. Atomix Also can run out of energy as proven in his fight against Malgax.

Gravattack

Gravity manipulation might not have a huge effect on Jaime, but Gravattack still isn’t a pushover. His weak spot is covered by his rock body, so he still is very durable. Also, show me a scan of Jaime surviving in a black hole. I’d like to see that.

His core is literally the center of his body and easy to see even without scanners and he's far from a mobile alien when it comes to dodging. Ben literally has only made a Black Hole Once and it was by accident under very specific circumstances in ....and it wasn't even strong enough to pull in Ben in his human form, his friend rook, or really anything at all until minutes after it was created and still wasn't a "real Black hole as Ben and his friends we able to drive away from it." Ben wasn't even able to really control this power and yet you're implying it's of any use in this battle. Again Context matters. The Proof for anyone interested in this "Black Hole" feat . In the same video Rook only implies the Black Hole formed because of the reaction with the time beasts own energy...and Jaime isn't that so..

Echo Echo

Alright, I must admit. Ben using duplication to transform into other aliens isn’t something he would do in character. But Echo Echo is still an useful alien. His durability is not that great, but he can create forcefields to protect himself. And the sound waves might even be effective. Show me a scan of Jaime no-selling sound-based attacks. He is still human after all. I’m also pretty sure that the scarab can hear too.

Firstly the Scarab is a machine, he's not going to be effected by sound in the same way something with a human body would secondly, I feel you're missing the part where he's under the armor, the armor filters everything for Jaime and something as simply as sensory over load when the scarab already protects and enhances him in his other senses doesn't make much sense. Hell Echo Echo's own powers have never even been able to hurt his teammates or enemies and they've only experienced mild discomfort from the sound but more so from the actual attack itself blowing them away.

Ghostfreak/ Big chill

Alright, Jaime can hurt them. But to do that the Scarab always takes a second or two. Ben has aliens he can use to come up close in this fight. Jaime can still be possessed. I don’t know if Ghostfreak gets hurt if his host dies.

That's not really how the counter measure works, it's portrayed as a permanent counter for future opponents with similar powers. Not to mention you've already admitted that Jaime is capable of tracking both and neither are fast fliers so I don't see them closing the distance any time soon before being blasted out of their intangibility.

Clockwork

Ben might not be able to stop time, but he can slow it down to some extent. This makes Jaime slower, but it makes Ben way faster. And the time rays might not have an effect on the scarab, it will affect Jaime. He’s a person, he ages with or without the scarab. Or Clockwork just sends Jaime to the time when the Big Ben exploded and Jaime and the Scarab both die. And if a character hasn’t shown something doesn’t mean they can’t do it at all. It isn’t completely confirmed that he can stop time, but he most likely can:

No Caption Provided

Being slower doesn't really matter against a flying opponent and even then he doesn't really seem to slow down time around him just his own so that he looks like a speedster. This doesn't really help him against AOE attacks of Jaime's own counters for time based abilities such as releasing tachyon to restrict time travel or Tim Dilation around himself to appear in three places at once around the globe. I fee like you missed my opener and the point of the armor, how is the time blast going to hit Jaime while he's being protected by the scarab, that was the whole point of this feat. I agree, saying a character can't do anything doesn't mean they can't....but Ben has yet to show the ability or desire to use this and even the person you're quoting isn't sure of its limits. Hell Ben didn't even realize he could slow down time until turning into clockwork for maybe the third time.

Lightning

You posted a scan of Jaime getting hit by lightning. Sure, totally fine. But Jaime was absolutely not no selling that. It hurt him, so he doesn’t have electrical immunity. And he was visibly struggling against a guy who could make tornadoes. Guys like Terraspin can do this too. His wings weren’t even working in the tornado.

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By all means show the rest of the fight since you're confident that Lightning bolt did so much when it really didn't

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

The Lightning bolt and tornado were both surprise attack that he only fell for because he thought Typhoon ( the villain) was just having a conversation and didn't even come there for a fight telling him simply to go home and in his first match up with the guy beats without much trouble. Neither attack did anything resembling lasting damage and terraspins tornadoes are not strong enough to start destroying a forest, uplifting trees, and destroy a steel tower with the air pressure alone. Not even sure why you brought him up, might as well bring up RipJaws if Jaime fights Aquaman.

Brainstorm

I did swap Brainstorm and Gravattack, excuse me for that. Still, I wanted to talk about him. He can create forcefields that are strong enough to hold ultimate Cannonbolt off, so Jaime can’t hurt him unless he has another cool gizmo you didn’t mention. But Brainstorm can also analyse opponents, meaning he can do almost the same as Jaime. He can analyse his attack pattern and see his weak spots. He can turn into another alien later on to play into Jaime’s weaknesses.

Another really weird and weak argument. The Scarab literally scans its opponents in every possibly way, Brainstorm isn't capable of that, there's a difference between analyzing and understanding. It's massively NLF to claim Brainstorm could just look at Jaime and understand any weaknesses with just eye sight and intellect alone especially when the scarab is such a complex creature. Holding off Ultimate Cannonbolt isn't that impressive, He has great defense but his offense isn't anything special or not that you've shown, besides there is a difference between blunt force and other forms of attack and how they react to something else. See no reason Jaime couldn't use an energy blast or something else to blast through it.

An Attempt to defend the Scarab - Counters to Counters

Adaptability -

Like you said, Jaime has the ability to adapt to every opponent he faces, but he can’t do this instantly. The scarab always needs a few seconds to adapt, and like I said Ben has aliens who can use this second to come closer, and with master control he can change into aliens at the speed of thought. And for those who don’t know, that is faster than a few seconds. The scarab can’t work at speeds this high. So seeing their anatomy won’t be a huge factor in this fight.

Making assumption for a character you admitted to underestimating is never good. Some of these will be feats I've already posted.

And that's without me touching on my thoughts on Ben's fighting style again. He doesn't do what you imply much at all with the only time he did was to run away from Vilgax and Kevin( Which was smart) Ben doesn't often rapidly go through Aliens even when it could benefit him.

The Omnitrix also isn’t something with a clear weakness except being removed from the owner. And I’m pretty sure that removing it can’t be done in a few seconds. Or you just cut it off, but 1. It’s out of character for Jaime to use his blades, 2. The Omnitrix still has a failsafe so that it can’t be removed and 3. Ben isn’t stupid, so he wouldn’t become human in this fight. So that wouldn’t be an option.

This is true and never said it wasn't. so not sure why it was brought up but If Ben is momentarily knocked out of his alien forms as it happens often. I see no reason Jaime doesn't just put a force field around Ben's watch hand though I doubt it will ever come to that.

The 2 pieces above show that Jaime can’t really adapt to Ben with master control. Sure, Jaime would win against almost all aliens individually, except Atomix, Gravattack, Waybig, Feedback and maybe Humungosaur who could arguably solo, but Jaime can’t handle Ben with master control. Even if Ben wouldn’t use the aliens mentioned above, he would still win at least half of all fights.

I'd say they just show underestimating Jaime again frankly, and I've already touched on why none of those Aliens can solo and why I feel you've wanked them all to the audience with lack of context ( Except for feed back who we can get to later). I stand by Ben won't be an easy fight with his versatility but how he uses it is the problem. He's too reactive with his transformations.

Weapons -

The blasters could be useful, but Jaime needs to hit Ben with it first. Ben won’t let that happen, especially not with master control.

Yes because Ben has never been hit with Master Control before. And yes you could make the argument he was going against two opponents but this once again shows that Ben is too reactive in his transformations, only doing them when he's losing. Another example is Ben in future where we see him stick with Four Arms for most of the fight despite losing and already being knocked out of his transformation only changing after at least 2 minutes of just getting wrecked and this is Ben in his peak with master control. So I'm sorry but once again I have to disagree with your battle plan when the series contradicts it in character and once again its against a character whose "All in One" like Jaime.

A Cryogun won’t have an effect on a lot of aliens, since a lot of them are temperature based, too strong, intangible, have counters, can duplicate, are too fast to get hit etc. Also, isn’t this PIS? Aren’t red lanterns supposed to be able to generate heat?

Not all of Ben's aliens are immune to the cold and it was just to show versatility and that's kind of the point? It was used to cool down a Red Lantern due to their Napalam and burning abilities. It's countering not PIS.

Yes, the electricity gun. Can be useful, but that robot was already heavily damaged. Jaime also seems to need to tag the thing he wants to use it on, and Ben won’t let that happen.

Its a massive AOE and one of your main arguments are Aliens physically trying to get close and over power Jaime. He'll tag them all right if they somehow close the distance.

While the blades aren’t used in character, they also won’t possess a threat. Some aliens are straight up bulletproof, too fast too tag, intangible etc.

I've already debunked any Alien being too Fast for Jaime, but I mostly just wanted to get the blades out of the way and doubt they'll be used.

Jaime can use the nukes, but a lot of aliens can no sell it. Gravattack, Cannonbolt, Atomix, Big Chill, Ghostfreak, Goop, Swampfire and maybe Humungosaur, Diamondhead and Waybig can survive this or no-sell this. Feedback can even absorb it.

Apologies, I wasn't implying he'd use them as he hasn't in character and wouldn't run to risk to kill Ben it was just to show he has them just as well to proved my versatility point. Though you don't have any proof most of those Aliens could eat a nuke save for maybe Cannonbolt and defiantly Atomix? Feedback can absorb the energy but not the concussive force produced by it.

Strength -

Jaime is a class 10 character, while Ben is a class 100 character with at least Waybig, Humungosaur and Atomix. A lot of aliens are also a little bit stronger, those being Diamondhead, Swampfire, Four arms, Bullfrag, Bloxx, Rath, Shocksquatch, Frankenstrike, Chromastone and more. Almost all of Ben’s strength-based aliens are stronger than Jaime. And I bet Ripjaws is stronger underwater too.

Here we go again with these stronger claims regarding a character you've admitted knowing nothing about and I've already agreed waybig and possibly Humgosaur are stronger ( I'll even give you Atomix) but you have no proof on the rest when Jaime is strong enough to stop Giganta from crushing him the same Giganta whose given Wonder Woman decent trouble So I can't agree that most of those Aliens are physically stronger and again it doesn't matter, its not a strength vs strength debate but a debate of strength versus speed and versatility which as I've shown multiple times is in Jaime's favor compared to most of these Aliens.

and do you really want to bring up ripjaws under water when we just discussed Jaime using AOE electricity?

Speed

XLR8 is a whole lot faster, I already said that. Same goes for Jetray. I don’t think Fastrack is as fast as Jaime but who knows.

Already debunked this earlier in the post as neither are as fast as you claim and I still stand by without a speed advantage they sorely need they can't handle Jaime's superior versatile move set.

Durability

Jaime’s is not durable enough for this fight. Granted, he survived an asteroid falling on him, But Cannonbolt’s best feat is that he was the asteroid falling on the surface of a planet.

I'm confused, I never claimed an asteroid fell on Jaime, i claimed he was indeed the object falling in my first post so he's already and equal in durability with Cannonbolt. Here's the feat again .

And then you have Waybig, who destroyed a planet like it was another Tuesday.

We'll go through this once more, Ben hasn't and wont do it in character as per the rules we've agreed on and he's hardly likely to hit Jaime with it when he's buzzing all around his body. Not to mention the Feat isn't canon and inconsistent in the game.

Ben also has an alien made out of diamond, which is the strongest metal on earth. If that weren’t enough, Diamondhead can also create diamond structures like an actual Green Lantern.

You can't seriously be comparing Diamondhead's crystal to a top tier GL? especially when his crystals aren't as durable as his main body. Not to mention he doesn't have any where near the same control over his constructs as a GL has. He can only make spikes and a shield. Diamondhead is also defiantly more durable than normal earth diamond but that's not my place to speak on.

That’s a lot of durability you have right there. What I’m trying to say is that Ben has way too many firepower for Jaime to win This fight.

To be fair this wasn't about durability and I still disagree with both points you presented in this section. It's not durability vs durability, its Your Durability vs. my Damage output and I've yet to see anything from one of you " Defensive Aliens" that could take a real blast from Jaime or could even hurt him with the flight/speed and range advantage he has over them. If Ben wants to do anything he'd have to turn into different aliens that would lose their own advantages.

Absorbing energy

Jaime has a lot of energy-based weapons, but none of them can hurt 1 specific alien. The alien who absorbed the Big Bang. Feedback.

Going to continue with the rest of this argument but I spent like 20 percent of my first post talking about non energy based attacks from Jaime. Jaime and the scarab aren't stupid enough to keep shooting blaster as someone who can revert them back.

Feedback can absorb a ridiculous amount of energy and he is an underrated OP character that I haven’t thought about in the previous post, and neither did you according to your list. Jaime can throw every energy-based weapon he has at Feedback, but it won’t work. Feedback has a lot more energy output than Jaime can dream of, even with the nukes he has. This will be a huge counter against Jaime’s weapons.

Fair but Feedback is also one of Ben's weaker aliens physically and without a moronic opponent to blast away at him isn't winning up close and personal and regardless, Let's say Jaime is caught off guard along with the scarab ( Though feedback takes a second before firing) He was relatively fine fighting a blood lusted Guy Gardner who was hammering him into an asteroid, he was scared for his life sure but the suit didn't take any harm much at all. This tactic would work better if Jaime was only capable of energy attacks and while that may be his main source of damage for most cases he's far from afraid to use other tactics. Feedback also is forced to release the energy his absorbs not long after absorbing so at the very least if he gets a surprised cheap shot on Jaime it's very likely it won't put him down and won't be as easy to hit again.

Morality of a Hero - Ben's Personality

Wasn't going to counter this but decided it was actually a very sound argument to be taken into consideration considering my earlier argument that Ben won't kill or at the very least throw out planet busting attacks in character ( Debatable if he has any).

It is in character for Ben to use master control. He likes master control and if he has access to it, he will use it. He is also a lot more confident with it, like when he fought Kevin and Vilgax at the same time.

Never argued he wouldn't use it, just that he doesn't use it in the way you're presenting and has never sized someone up using multiple aliens and rather just attempt to over power with one until he finds a good counter which I feel I've proven multiple times prior to this section.

It’s also in character for him to not be serious in a fight, but he does watch out when fighting a new opponent. He looks at his options carefully. It is also in character for Ben to become very serious if he or other people are in danger. In this fight there are no other people in the crossfire, but Ben kinda is. Jaime won’t kill him, but he can K.O. Ben. Not that Ben would give Jaime the opportunity. It is also in character for Ben to use less strong aliens. He can change into Alien X whenever he wants in the show, but he doesn’t because that makes it boring. So he won’t just change into Atomix and finish it.

The rules already say determined to win so I'm sure he's serious enough, but your Alien X argument is flawed because he doesn't use Alien X simply because in the 2 middle series he was unable to use him without getting into an argument with both beings in his head and used him a lot more often after gaining control in Omniverse. The issue is Jaime is probably one of the more versatile character Ben has ever fought in a straight up fight and unlike the others he has no perfect counter or outside help to win just the same.

Like I already said, it is out of character for Ben to change into Atomix or Waybig immediately when the fight begins. That would make it boring. It is, however, out of character for Ben to risk losing. Ben wants to win so he can tease Gwen. It’s also not in character for Ben to use ultimate forms, because he’s terrified of them. He only uses them when absolutely necessary because he’s a mature person.

This is kind of a contradiction is it not? You say he's mature but still wants to tease Gwen, something he hasn't done since the OG series when he was 10. Your reasoning for the Ultimate Forms is also incorrect as he lost them towards the end of "Ultimate Alien" and has lost them fully by Omniverse(Something I could of easily argued against). I asked if you felt you needed them and I agreed to let them in if you thought they were necessary. Regardless none of this changes the fact Ben has only directly killed 1 being in the series which was Dagon who was a cosmic being akin to a Galactus type character who was about to enslave the universe, and the only other time was Kevin due to being his own fault his friend was turned into a monster and because Kevin was hunting and hurting their friends. He hasn't killed Vilgax really at all despite being his mortal enemy so I don't see why He'd attempt to utterly obliterate what would be just another mook to him visually.

Ultimate Problems - Counters to the "Ultimate" Aliens

I'll just lop all the Ultimate forms into a shorter section as I stand by my opinion that they won't cause anymore harm than some of Ben's unevolved aliens. I'd also like to say that I asked if you wanted the Ultimate Forms ( As Ben lost the use of them in the third series) and asked if you felt you needed them to win, I'd say perhaps you do or maybe you don't regardless lets get through them to make it towards the end.

Big Chill

Ultimate Big Chill can do everything normal Big Chill can do. He has ice breath, he can fly and can become intangible. But ultimate Big Chill can also breath fire and shoot fire out of his hands. He can also combine this with his ice breath, creating fire that is “so cold that it burns”. This version of Big Chill is also much faster. His Ice breath is also colder and faster than that of his base form.

Do you have any proof of a substantial speed increase? I've already proven Jaime is as fast if not faster than Ben's confirmed fastest aliens. Also already showed great heat resistance so He's not bringing anything to the table you couldn't get from Heatblast or Swampfire.

Cannonbolt

Ultimate Cannonbolt is basically normal Cannonbolt but more durable and with spikes on his shell. He can also shoot his spikes, however, Ben never did this. He is also a little bit faster than his normal counterpart, but he is slower due to his heavier shell.

This is nice but again, not adding anything that would cause a problem and simply another alien to add that could be incapped by Magnetism or anything else I suggest to beat cannonbolt

Echo Echo

Ultimate Echo Echo can do the same as his normal counterpart, but is stronger, more durable etcetera. But he has sonic disks. He can use these sonic disks to hurt an opponent. Last time I checked Jaime wasn’t immune to sound. Kevin in his mutated form was hurt by it. Echo Echo can create forcefields, fly, and duplicate himself. He can also use his sonic disks to destroy things like a tank. Duplication will eventually get to Jaime.

Ultimate Echo Echo seemingly can't duplicate or Ben is just unaware how to do it as instead he sends out small disk that aren't very fast or durable and similar to the clones easier to destroy. Not to mention another alien weak to Magnetism ( becoming a fast trend). Certainly one of Ben's only impressive ultimate aliens but it simply adds more more but doesn't lose any weaknesses and in fact gains another. I also would like to see it's body or shields take a blast from something like one of Jaime's.

Humungosaur

Ultimate Humungosaur is an absolute beast. He is way stronger than normal Humungosaur. In fact, he could handle a lot of them at the same time (see previous post). He can fire missiles from his hands. He has a tail with a spiked ball on it. He has additional armor on his head and his chest, and he has spiked armor on his back. He can create earthquakes by clapping his hands.

As I'm sure you or the audience have seen, this isn't nearly as impressive as it sounds. he went against dim witted slow drones of Humungosaur that possessed his powers but that's about it. He mostly zoned them out with projectiles ( Though he wasn't able to harm any) and eventually lost when they dog piled him. Albedo clearly wasn't confident enough to try and out muscle them and resorted to zoning them out with missiles don't seem that impressive and aren't packing any level of power Jaime hasn't already been hit by. He still lacks mobility at that as seen in the very same fight you mention.

Spider-monkey

Ultimate Spider-monkey is way stronger than normal Spider-monkey. He can shoot webs out of his mouth and tail. These webs were strong enough to hold Vilgax, who was strong enough to destroy a Mount Rushmore head with 1 punch:

No Caption Provided

This Spider-monkey is also faster and more durable than his normal version. His webs have no limit. He can also climb walls and leap very high.

This is actually quite impressive though Ultimate Spider Monkey lacks the speed feats to keep up with Jaime and even if he were to in snare him, I see no reason the scarab couldn't either cut Jaime out ( As I haven't seen any piercing feats for the webbing) or blast out of it.

Swampfire

Ultimate Swampfire is logically faster, stronger, and more durable than normal Swampfire. He can also fly and still has limited pyrokinesis. This pyrokinesis is already stronger than the pyrokinesis of base Swampfire. He can shoot Methane out of his hands. He can also control vines and throw bombs, making him a worthy opponent.

All good and well but if Ben need's stats he has better options, Ultimate Swamp Fire sounds cool but hardly like a worthy opponent when I've shown Jaime fighting GLs or Typhoon. Does he really have anything that another one of Ben's aliens couldn't do better ot would effect Jaime? I think not.

Waybig

Ultimate Waybig is even bigger than normal Waybig. He’s also stronger, faster, and more durable. His cosmic rays are also stronger. This says a lot since normal Waybig could destroy a planet with his cosmic rays. Ultimate Waybig also has the ability to fly, and he can spin around fast enough to repel energy attacks. And he has cosmic disks he can throw. He can use this to cut things like legs off.

As I've already discussed, Waybigs planet busting feat is questionable due to it not being canon, and it's not very consistent in the game itself, even more so Ben wouldn't resort to this in character especially against an opponent he'll have trouble tagging. Ultimate Way Big is powerful but he carries the same weakness I've spoke about with normal WayBig and continues to make himself a bigger target for either attacks to his fin which can only be guarded if he doesn't attack or something that ignores durability all together as mentioned before.

Wildmutt

Ultimate Wildmutt didn’t change a lot. He is stronger faster and more durable than normal Wildmutt, but the only other changes he went through is that he has a sharp tail, sharp claws, and sharper teeth. He also has enhanced hearing, not only enhanced smell. Enhanced hearing came with the ability to speak.

Unless you have something else ultimate Wildmutt comes off as a spider man tier foe which is cool but nothing to Jaime. He's better than normal wildmutt but that about it.

The ultimate aliens will prove useful against Jaime, even though Ben doesn’t need them to win. I think they are complete overkill. While Ben vs Jaime would be a fair fight, Ben with ultimate aliens stomps. Ultimate Waybig could solo. He has everything he needs. He can fly, he has cosmic blasts that could obliterate Jaime, He is stronger than Jaime and he could easily block attacks to his fin. Ultimate Humungosaur, Big Chill, Swampfire, Spider-monkey, Echo Echo and Cannonbolt could all do some damage to Jaime, and maybe even win 1/10 fights. Ultimate Wildmutt is basically Daredevil as a tiger, so he contributes nothing, but he’s still nice to have.

Also, keep in mind that Atomix throws these dudes around like they are insects.

Honestly, I didn't see anything impressive outside of Waybig and Echo Echo, the others are just hollow upgrades to their original counter parts that aren't going to change the tide of battle in anyway and saying they stomp when all I've seen is just a list of abilities but not the feats or context surrounding them isn't going to change that. You also keep saying Waybig can just block attacks to his fin which seems rather pointless when if he does that he'll lose the use of his cosmic rays which can only be used with his hands and Ultimate Way Big has them in a even worse spot.

Master Control Counters

I've put it many time in my post but Ben doesn't use master control at all like you're implying he does and it is still ( Or was) a major flaw with his fighting style. Earlier I gave quite a few examples of Ben not using his Aliens abilities in "combos" Even your example ( one I also gave in this post) He's not comboing Aliens at all, he's just re actively transforming when he's losing and more so than not will attempt to to use the same alien. While I'm sure Ben will switch Aliens around he'll only do it every time Jaime counters someone else which is an unsafe game as he may be knocked out of his transformation or end of in a form that allows Jaime to take the omnitrix symbol of his body to incapacitate him like goop. You'll rarely find any time of Ben using the watch like you imply if any at all. It's the same issue with the planet busting argument.

It's like me arguing an in character with morals Superman will just go to space use his enhanced vision and snipe with heat vision. I suppose it's a possibility with his abilities but not something in character or fitting to how Ben has portrayed his style of fighting for years as a character.

Final thoughts on your Final Thoughts

I still think Ben should win. It won’t be an absolute wreck, like I said in my opener, but still a solid 8/10. Jaime has powers that work on most people, but Ben has 61 aliens he can use. He is not most people. Jaime takes way too long to adapt to an opponent. That makes a lot of difference. Ben can change at the speed of thought with master control. Ben is not like the other opponents Jaime has faced before, and that will be why he loses this fight.

As I've already explained only about 22 of those Aliens are worth bringing into this debate and I've already proven you adapt argument to be wrong. Just as you've said Ben has never fought someone who has multiple advantages on all of his more powerful aliens and usually can rely on one to fix a problem. This tactic won't work on Jaime. I've even showed how in sync Jaime and Scarab are as they were able to do a heart surgery while in the middle of combat while holding back against said combatant. That sort of ability is defiantly "thought" level as you put it since Jaime had to take in the info the scarab was putting into him as he did it,

While I underrated Jaime, I think you did too with Ben. Saying he isn’t a high tier shows that you don’t know enough about him or you’re just stubborn, I don’t know. Ben is a 100+ tonner, has Flash-like speed, has planet-level durability, has galaxy-level energy absorption and he probably has the most amount of hax in any fiction. And Jaime? 10+ tonner, lightspeed, comet-level durability and city-level energy absorption. He does have, hax, but not the crazy amount Ben has.

I think throughout this post I've shown I'm more familiar with Ben's Lore as I've added context to a multitude of feats you would have the audience believe Ben could do casually as well as debunked your higher claims such as Lightspeed in any way and your breakdown of Jaime is again misinformed which you shouldn't do against an opponent who knows BOTH characters in the debate well. You're also following a lot of ABC logic regarding Ben's abilities. Yes, FeedBack seemingly aborbed the big bang but he's still only building level in stats or maybe spider man tier in reaction speed or yes, Humgosaur is a 100 tonner but he's slow and has no mobility option to beat a flier capable of hurting him.

Ben outmatches Jaime in everything except Jaime’s ability to adapt, which is his only real counter here. I don’t doubt Jaime can pull out a win, but most of the fights will go to Ben. The only fights that will not go to Ben is when he’s not paying enough attention, but when Ben’s magically transporting to another planet he will be serious.

You're missing my biggest point about Ben, Ben can change into one alien sure that may have one real advantage but is beaten within others by a vast margin. Most of the aliens you're confident in don't have the speed feats to say that could even keep up with Jaime and the one's that might aren't lightspeed and lack any real way to hurt Jaime or overwhelm his other advantages. Jaime has plenty of advantages on all of your notable 20ish Aliens, and even with master control Ben isn't the kind to size up an opponent through the use of multiple aliens especially when some of those weaker aliens will get him incapacitated or Ko'd earlier on. Your argument and Ben's abilities are good on paper but as we've seen through out the series as a whole, that's far from enough in his actual fight even when he's had master control or something similar to it.

Conclusion Counters

Personally feel these conclusion are built on a lack of knowledge on Blue Beetle and assumptions, lets get into them.

Ben is Jaime’s superior and Ben will win most of the fights.

Mighty claim that I feel isn't backed up.

I’ve shown:

Ben’s counters to a lot of Jaime’s attacks like the cryo gun and the electricity gun, and also his counters to the adaptability Jaime has.

Did you really? The whole point of me originally showing them was Jaime has counters for when Ben turned into different Aliens while fighting. Clearly he'll have something that can take it but if that was the case Jaime wouldn't be using on that specific Alien. It's the whole point of his counter measures.

Ben’s usage of the master control and how he could use it to defeat Jaime.

Which I've shown isn't nearly as impressive as you'd have our audience to believe as Ben even in his prime uses the Omnitrix as a sort of blunt instrument to power through most enemies and only changes to different aliens as a reaction to already losing. Heck I've already shown Ben losing to characters similar to Jaime who are just as versatile but don't have the need to lose one power for another in Kevin 11,000 and Agregor.

Ben’s ultimate aliens and their additional powers.

Add nothing that Ben couldn't find better in another Alien save for Way Big and Echo Echo who both gained easily exploitable weaknesses and lack any proof of coverage for weakness they already had such as durability for Echo Echo or hitting weak spots for Way Big.

Ben’s personality and what he would do in a fight with Jaime.

I've spoken on my thoughts regarding this, Didn't change the fact Ben won't use his non canon planet busting attack and that over his 8 years with the omnitrix his fighting style hasn't changed for the better.

Ben’s superiority in strength, speed, durability and energy output.

Again, on paper. Any Alien with strength is slower, any alien with impressive speed isn't durable and lacks the ability to hurt jaime, any energy output wasn't impressive compared to Jaime's durability.

Overview on Why Blue Beetle wins

So I'll take a page from my opponents book and give a bulletin point of why I believe Blue Beetle wins and the counters I've given to some of his own arguments.

  • I've debunked any of his Aliens having any sort of advantage over Jaime that isn't out classed by other advantages Jaime has over them.
  • I've debunked the wilder claims that would apparently put Ben up their with the likes of Superman or Thor such as disproving light speed, planet busting, and the ability to create black holes on the fly,
  • I've Proven that at most only 21 Aliens are a threat cutting down the impressive number of 61 by more than half.
  • I've Proven the scarab and Jaime are a well oiled machine and can counter Ben's Alien in real time and on the fly in the middle of a fight especially due to being able to scan Ben's aliens and already possessing versatility to out match any one of them
  • I've proven the ultimate Aliens add nothing to the fight from what my opponent has shown save for 2 who still lack multiple advantages over Jaime that he has over them.
  • I've proven Ben in character won't use any possible planet busting attacks ( That are questionable) and that his use of Master Control is inherently flawed and a bad match up for someone who is capable of being proactive and reactive in a fight, just not the latter.
  • I've proven that I am just as familiar with my opponents character as my own if not more so concerning the context of certain feats and scenario's that would only be impressive without them.

All in all I feel I've presented Blue Beetle as the superior combatant under the stipulation that were agreed upon and want to say something to my opponent and audience. I do not low ball Ben and some times even in this post I've defended him. I simply am aware of the context of his more outlandish feats and/or am know that some of his feats sound great on paper but aren't nearly as impressive if paired up against a character who lacks the ability to perform something similar but out do Ben in other regards. As stated before Feedback absorbing a Big Bang sounds like it top tier in the same league as characters such as the Beyonder right? Until you realize the same Alien has been beaten by characters with mid tier stats and simple abilities. Even when putting all of Ben's Aliens together, very few are useful in a fight with most mid tiers and even less would be a challenge to a high tier like Superman even when considering Ben's ability to use them together when they don't add to much and even he rarely does so.

I took on this debate to give true perspective to Ben's power level and while he is powerful ( Even without Alien X) He has clear weaknesses in his fighting style and Aliens that are easily exploited.

The ball is back to you my friend, good luck to both of our final post.

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StormShadow_X

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Wow, I'm impressed. Nice post.