CaV: Belcross (GearSecond659) vs Asura (HigherPower) OPEN FOR VOTES

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BELCROSS - THE NODOS OF EXISTENCE

Represented by GearSecond659
Represented by GearSecond659

ASURA - THE GOD OF WRATH

Represented by HigherPower
Represented by HigherPower

RULES

  • Composite Belcross and Asura
  • Indestructible Planet
  • Speed Equalized
  • Fight to K.O. or Death
  • In Character, but Serious
  • Random Encounter

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LOL

Bout time

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@higherpower I can go first if you don't mind

Also is Asura really 31 billion times the speed of light because if he is it may be a mismatch in your favor lol

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#8  Edited By Streak619
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@higherpower I can go first if you don't mind

Just realized that there are A LOT more feats I have to collect for Belcross. Do you mind going first?

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After every post.

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Tag after every post.

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Tag after every post, please.

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#18  Edited By HigherPower

Asura's Intro | The Beginning of the End

No Caption Provided

Lately I've been opting to waive character intros since nowadays they only really serve to stall readers from they actually want to see—awesome feats that support an argument for X character winning. However, Asura's background gives some insight to his famous wrath which is a fundamental aspect of his power-set, so a bio here surprisingly keys into my post.

In short, Asura was a former member of the 8 Guardian Generals, a group of cybernetic Demigods who fought to protect Earth from a race of impure beings known as Gohma. All of the Gohma are spawned by a monster named Gohma Vlitra, a supreme entity and the penultimate antagonist of the series. After receiving a permanent Mantra amp from is daughter Mithra, Asura single-handedly vanquished Gohma Vlitra (which is basically a planetary rock snake) and then returned to Earth. But before he could bask in his victory, he was framed by the remaining Guardians for killing their Emperor, and on top of that, he came home to find out that his wife Durga was brutally murdered and his daughter had been kidnapped. Overcome with seething anger, he succumbs to his furious wrath and embarks on a quest fueled by hate to exact revenge of his former comrades, who now go by the Seven Deities.

I'm almost done watching Heroic Age, so I'll lay out some sample feats right now and structure my following posts by doing a feat-by-feat comparison between Asura and Bellcross. This will make it easier for readers to visualize why Asura wins this match convincingly, since I think his feats are just overall better and he's superior in every category.

Strength

Now Asura is pretty much a brick with energy projection and speed is equalized here, so strength and durability will make up a majority of this post. Like I said in my opening paragraph before I typed his bio (if you read it), Asura's wrath plays a fundamental role in his power. Similar to Hulk, he strength rises with his anger... the madder he gets, the stronger he is. On to some feats.

In his debut appearance, Asura was able to subdue Vlitra with a couple of blows after getting a Mantra boost from his daughter.

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A statement that confirms it:

No Caption Provided

This is impressive because Vlitra is roughly the size of a continent, give or take.

No Caption Provided

So needless to say, Asura was already teasing continent level in terms of striking power by the end of his first appearance. This is far more substantial than Bellcross' opening feats, most of which consist of destroying Ant Heaps from the Tribe of Bronze which are the size of asteroids at best. He did blow a hole through a small mountain with air pressure, and his clash with Lernaea above Planet Titarros did cause widespread destruction (multi-mountain level?), but this feat is several pegs above both of those.

Bellcross obviously has better feats than those however, but Asura's striking feats are more explicit and quantifiable than his and are completely devoid of scaling. While Bellcross can "punch out black holes" (a feat that is unquantifiable in every sense of the word) base form Asura can, with effort, blow up beings that are larger than planets. I'm referring to his feat against Wyzen that he performed after catching and lifting his country sized finger, which was moving at reentry speeds.

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The thumbnail of that video is the scale of the resulting explosion after Asura vanquished Wyzen. As you can see, it's close to dwarfing the planet. But Wyzen's actual size which is undeniably larger than Gaea (Earth). In fairness, it did take Asura countless blows and his arms were getting destroyed in the process, but I would still put this feat at planet+. He was also in one of his weakest forms when he did this.

Durability

This next feat isn't really durability, but in the realm of piercing attacks, Asura was able to catch the extension of Augus' sword (Wailing Dark) and then survive being impaled by it. The sword had enough piercing power to seamlessly penetrate the entirety of Gaea and release a large continent sized shock wave upon doing so.

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More impressively, Asura was able to tank the brunt of Vlitra's planetary energy blast while fighting him alongside Yasha, before plowing through said blast.

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The blast was pretty devastating, take a closer look.

No Caption Provided

Bellcross' best durability feat is tanking the explosion of Jupiter, but I'd argue this next feat of Asura no-selling Chakravartin's mantra beam is better. For starters, it was a focused, condensed energy beam that was light years in length and vaporized multiple planets just by brushing past them.

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Asura completely no-sold it after transforming into his Destructor form, and this is better than Bellcross' Jupiter feat for two reasons:

1. Condensed laser beams/energy blasts are logically more potent than widespread, omni-directional AOE explosions, especially towards specific characters.

2. The speed of the beam is another factor I want readers to tank into consideration. Golden Chakravartin's body was located at the center of the Milky Way Galaxy, and he fired that beam from his position. It reached Asura in a matter of seconds who intercepted it around Gaea/Earth, which is 26,000 light years away. So this beam was moving incomprehensibly faster than light (several billion times) in addition to having natural multi-planet busting damage potency.

Energy

Asura can fire energy blasts as a game function. They are most powerful in his Destructor form but he has some pretty cool feats in Beserker, like wiping out a fleet of giant starships, temporarily matching the Brahmastra and releasing continent scale shock waves as a side effect.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

To conclude this post, I will acknowledge that Bellcross is extremely powerful in his own right, but personally, I feel Asura has better, clear-cut feats and has him beat in all categories.

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#23  Edited By Darthjhawk

Did I miss this somehow? tag after each post please.

Edit: I also owe HP a match sometime in the future. But for now I'll look forward to this one's continuation.

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@higherpower:

BELCROSS | THE HERO

No Caption Provided

THE MULTIPLIER

Before I can fully dive into the fight, I need to establish one thing. Since this is a battle of composites, Belcross has access to his temporary EoS form which multiplied his power millions of times over. For the uninitiated, Leqty, a fellow Nodos with the ability to manipulate time, fused millions of time remnants of Belcross with the present day Belcross, increasing his power millions of times over. So remember this fact when I go over Belcross' feats in base and Berserk form.

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PHYSICALS

In regards to physicals, I am of the opinion that my opponent did a poor job of portraying Belcross in this context, severely underselling what Belcross is capable of. Thus, I will do my best to show voters just how strong this Nodos really is.

For starters, in base form, Belcross was capable of destroying a planet sized starship with two punches. In terms of potency, this feat should easily be comparable to Asura's feat of destroying Wyzen for a couple of reasons. The first thing you have to consider is the amount of effort put into each feat. Belcross destroyed the starship with two punches and he did so with relative ease. Juxtapose this to Asura relying on pure adrenaline and exerting himself in a physically strenuous manner, attacking with a barrage of strikes which resulted in his arms getting destroyed. Now yes, I am aware that Wyzen was bigger than Earth and most likely bigger than the starship Belcross destroyed, but looking at the two visually, it wasn't by that large a margin to make up for the severe gap in effort and physical exertion.

No Caption Provided

In terms of durability, Belcross is easily in the large planet level + range. Here he tanks the explosion of Jupiter with no visible injuries nor long lasting damage. While he was staggered by this explosion, he was still able to react to and block a bullrush from another Nodos. And this was in base form. Now, I concede that Asura is his Destructor form has better durability then Belcross in base form, but not by that large a margin when you consider that the beam Asura no sold only destroyed two, relatively small planets, so saying the beam is multi planetary is quite the stretch. Thus, the DC of the beam shouldn't be too far over the DC of Jupiter's explosion. And again, this is comparing one of Asura's strongest forms to base form Belcross.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And as touched on in the multipler section, Belcross' stats should be multiplied millions of times over due because of Leqty's time manipulation. This means that composite Belcross is millions of times planetary in both striking and millions times large planetary in durability, which is far beyond Asura's durability paygrade.

ENERGY PROJECTION

This is one of Belcross' biggest assets in this fight. In terms of energy projection, Belcross is undoubtedly superior to Asura by a pretty substantial margin.

Belcross' best energy projection feat was when he PASSIVELY released energy equivalent to a large star going Supernova. I say this was passive because, when you look at the fight between Belcross and the Mehitak, the fight that was being measured in the gifs below, Belcross didn't make use of any energy projection. Rather, he was engaging in CQC, which leads me to believe that he was unconsciously releasing supernova level energies during his fight with the enemy Nodos. Thus Belcross is large star level PASSIVELY, and when you upscale that to Belcross actively trying to use energy projection, and further upscale that to the multiplier established in the first section, Belcross is way too much for Asura to handle.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

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#27  Edited By HigherPower

@gearsecond659:

Round 2

No Caption Provided

Before I can fully dive into the fight, I need to establish one thing. Since this is a battle of composites, Belcross has access to his temporary EoS form which multiplied his power millions of times over. For the uninitiated, Leqty, a fellow Nodos with the ability to manipulate time, fused millions of time remnants of Belcross with the present day Belcross, increasing his power millions of times over. So remember this fact when I go over Belcross' feats in base and Berserk form.

Um, no... The video evidence you gave in attempts to support this argument doesn't actually prove or corroborate what you're saying, like at all. What transpired is somewhat ambiguous and therefore open to different interpretations, but it appears obvious—at least to me—that Lecty summoned millions of Bellcross from the past and seemingly fused them with the present one so he'd be able to harness the Tribe of Gold's power. She knew he was the key and did what she could to help him wield the full potential of the power. It was never explicitly stated or even implied that his all of his physical stats were linearly increased a million times over from his base form, let alone Madness.

Honestly, the feat just isn't clear and requires too much guesswork and speculation on your part for it to be taken seriously. More so when you realize he has absolutely no feats on any combat front that would validate this, and his single showing after getting the Tribe of Gold's power is roughly planet level+ (destroying Kervius).

For starters, in base form, Belcross was capable of destroying a planet sized starship with two punches.

Calling Ant Heaps planet sized is an extremely laughable assertion, especially considering that there are multiple shots of Ant Heaps in comparison to actual planets that show them as blatantly smaller. The most prominent and indisputable example of this is seen in the first episode...

Loading Video...

You literally can not tell me that this thing is even the size of a moon. The explosion of this ant heap is larger than the heap itself and this is how big the explosion is:

PLANET SIZED!!!!!!!!!!
PLANET SIZED!!!!!!!!!!

There's like a dozen more of these but I think I got my point across. Ant Heaps do vary in size but none of them are anywhere near as large as your average planet. The best part about your claim was that this is the link you posted to show an ant heap as "planet sized":

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ZLs_baXT8a3fZQcrINyEoUks_QZdtbGXGlUD_cTsg-ieWyWvZ8y3704f6snoy5Zeoml4MTSXv4hPJPWvS4Mt2jeeH4LMHtPtT-Nh_hBnjyR553OpD1QTbfeEvDUoi3yKjNBAqvko

And there's absolutely nothing in that scan whatsoever that shows the Heap is the size of a planet. There's no planet in the frame to reference to. Only the curvature of the heap in comparison to tiny dots which are the ants themselves, most of whom max out at 30 meters in length and a few meters tall. The biggest heaps are the size of asteroids.

In terms of potency, this feat should easily be comparable to Asura's feat of destroying Wyzen for a couple of reasons. The first thing you have to consider is the amount of effort put into each feat. Belcross destroyed the starship with two punches and he did so with relative ease. Juxtapose this to Asura relying on pure adrenaline and exerting himself in a physically strenuous manner, attacking with a barrage of strikes which resulted in his arms getting destroyed. Now yes, I am aware that Wyzen was bigger than Earth and most likely bigger than the starship Belcross destroyed, but looking at the two visually, it wasn't by that large a margin to make up for the severe gap in effort and physical exertion.

I love the fact that the gif you posted after this paragraph showed Bellcross destroying an Ant Heap that was the size of a large building. You can actually see that Ant Heap in comparison to the Yunos Knights whose suits are about 10x larger than humans. Also your link is broken, and I exposed your lie on the size of Ant Heaps so Asura's feat is still much better.

You conceded durability so I'm not even gonna touch that but:

the beam Asura no sold only destroyed two, relatively small planets, so saying the beam is multi planetary is quite the stretch. Thus, the DC of the beam shouldn't be too far over the DC of Jupiter's explosion.

The beam was light years in length and thick enough to completely enveloped Gaea/Earth. It was also moving at MFTL speeds. You could line up billions of planets side by side and if the beam was fired at them they would all get annihilated... Multi-planetary isn't a stretch in any sense of the word. This is much better than the Jupiter feat for reasons already stated.

And as touched on in the multipler section, Belcross' stats should be multiplied millions of times over due because of Leqty's time manipulation. This means that composite Belcross is millions of times planetary in both striking and millions times large planetary in durability, which is far beyond Asura's durability paygrade.

I addressed this at the beginning of my post but I'll say it again. There is no proof of this. What Lecty did wasn't abundantly clear and saying his stats are multiplied millions of times over is just wishful thinking. Lecty's actual dialogue states "Instead of interfering with the past and returning the present to nothingness... we [will] collect millions of pasts from faraway time and space, and give over everything, rights and wrongs alike, to the future." What does that even mean?

Let's dissect this.

  • The "millions of pasts" Lecty talks about is most likely in reference to alternate past versions of Bellcross from faraway time and space. This is implied by the glowing apparitions of Bellcross that appear.
  • We literally don't know if Lecty is taking the physical stats and raw power from these versions of Bellcross, and based on her statement you actually can't prove she is. Lecty herself described what she was doing as giving over the pasts "rights and wrongs to the future" and I have no idea what the f*** that's supposed to mean.
  • One thing for sure is that there's no proof at all that she's talking about his strength, speed and durability. Lol.

Honestly if I was a voter with no knowledge on the series, I still wouldn't be convinced by your argument as it's based on a very elusive statement that doesn't prove what you're saying.

This is one of Belcross' biggest assets in this fight. In terms of energy projection, Belcross is undoubtedly superior to Asura by a pretty substantial margin.

No he's not.

Belcross' best energy projection feat was when he PASSIVELY released energy equivalent to a large star going Supernova. I say this was passive because, when you look at the fight between Belcross and the Mehitak, the fight that was being measured in the gifs below, Belcross didn't make use of any energy projection. Rather, he was engaging in CQC, which leads me to believe that he was unconsciously releasing supernova level energies during his fight with the enemy Nodos. Thus Belcross is large star level PASSIVELY, and when you upscale that to Belcross actively trying to use energy projection, and further upscale that to the multiplier established in the first section, Belcross is way too much for Asura to handle.

This is terrible logic. First you label the section as "energy projection" but Bellcross was never shown projecting any energy blasts or releasing any energy from his body. He was fighting Artemia hand to hand. If anything that should lead you to conclusion that the A.I system was reading his internal energy. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Are you actually saying Asura would be hit with supernova levels of force from just standing near to Bellcross? Since he's releasing this energy "passively"? If so I hope you see what's wrong with that implication... there was nothing that took damage from being in Beserk Bellcross' vicinity.

On the other hand, Asura has actually destroyed a star system (star + orbiting planets) in a matter of seconds with a few blasts.

Loading Video...

Now I railed on you for the size of Ant Heaps, so I'm going to defend this feat since I realize it doesn't look to scale. Asura in Destructor form (the form he was in when he completed this feat) is larger than Earth. The star he destroys here is a few dozen times larger than him by the time it gets really close (right before it explodes), and the planets orbiting the star appear to be larger than him as well. So this a small star and a several roughly Earth sized planets in orbit, aka a star system. The only thing that truly isn't to scale is the distance between the star and its planets, but Vartin was using celestial bodies as a means of attack so it wouldn't make sense for them to be far apart.

This isn't equivalent to destroying our real Solar System obviously, but it's far more impressive than literally anything Bellcross has ever done. It would take him many hours to do this (if we take the A.I. system statement at face value) and it took Asura 10 seconds. He also has no durability feats to suggest he can tank this.

Asura destroys Bellcross.

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Interesting, T4V.

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Tag after every post

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#31  Edited By Thenewguysnm1

And i am a 0 lol

T4V

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@gearsecond659: We have to let him vote but we don't have to count his vote.

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@higherpower:

REBUTTAL | A HERO'S RAGE

No Caption Provided

THE VALIDITY OF THE MULTIPLIER

Um, no... The video evidence you gave in attempts to support this argument doesn't actually prove or corroborate what you're saying, like at all. What transpired is somewhat ambiguous and therefore open to different interpretations, but it appears obvious—at least to me—that Lecty summoned millions of Bellcross from the past and seemingly fused them with the present one so he'd be able to harness the Tribe of Gold's power.

At least we are on the same page on this front. So far so good...

She knew he was the key and did what she could to help him wield the full potential of the power. It was never explicitly stated or even implied that his all of his physical stats were linearly increased a million times over from his base form, let alone Madness.

Logistically speaking, it makes perfect sense that his power would be multipled millions of times. If you fuse someone with millions of versions of their selves, their power would increase by an exponential margin. And while not explicitly stated, it was very heavily implied his power was multipled, evident by how different versions of Belcross were helping him to absorb the power of the Gold Tribe, a feat he was not able to accomplish by himself. So even if Belcross' power wasn't linearly multiplied millions of times over, there was still an exponential increase in power considering he was finally able to wield the power of the Gold Tribe, beings several tiers above what a Nodos is capable of.

In regards to Madness, I'd argue that Belcross' Madness state was also multipled. Remember, Leqty can only go about hundreds of hours in the past, and in that time frame, all of the time remnants of Belcross have access to their Madness state.

Honestly, the feat just isn't clear and requires too much guesswork and speculation on your part for it to be taken seriously.

Dude, it is called inference. When you see millions of Belcross' fusing with the current Belcross and helping him to contain a power that he wasn't able to contain alone, that leads me to conclude that their was some sort of increase in power, an exponential one at that.

Personally, I think it was a millions times multiplier given the line "We collect millions of pasts from faraway time and space, and give over everything, rights and wrongs alike, to the future." First of all, from a writing perspective, why establish that there are millions of pasts being pulled from if that has no correlation with the fusing process? Moreover, the part of dialogue that talks about giving over everything, implies that there was some transferal of power taking place. The rights and wrongs part is a little vague, I will give you that, but looking at the line metaphorically, the implication is that the different Belcross' are literally giving everything to current Belcross, or the future, ranging from increased knowledge/awareness (giving over rights and wrongs) to power (giving over everything). Your problem is that you are looking at the line at face value without delving deeper while I am reading between the lines.

More so when you realize he has absolutely no feats on any combat front that would validate this, and his single showing after getting the Tribe of Gold's power is roughly planet level+ (destroying Kervius).

Okay, this is BS and you know it. Kervius was soloing an entire group of Nodos with relative ease. And yet Belcross, with the Gold Tribe's power, oneshotted him. This feat alone puts Belcross in a tier of his own in terms of DC, and further supports the notion that his power was multiplied by a substantial amount.

Lecty's actual dialogue states "Instead of interfering with the past and returning the present to nothingness... we [will] collect millions of pasts from faraway time and space, and give over everything, rights and wrongs alike, to the future." What does that even mean?

Already explained this.

The "millions of pasts" Lecty talks about is most likely in reference to alternate past versions of Bellcross from faraway time and space. This is implied by the glowing apparitions of Bellcross that appear.

Correct.

We literally don't know if Lecty is taking the physical stats and raw power from these versions of Bellcross, and based on her statement you actually can't prove she is.

Other than her literally saying "we give over everything." Okay man, if you want to blantly ignore the part of her dialogue that basically confirms that there was a transfer of power, in addition to ignoring the fact that Belcross was finally able to wield the Gold Tribe's power AFTER THE PROCESS HAD FINISHED, then that's on you.

Lecty herself described what she was doing as giving over the pasts "rights and wrongs to the future" and I have no idea what the f*** that's supposed to mean.

Rights and wrongs to the future is a vague sentence, but looking at it metaphorically, it means that Belcross is being transferred the knowledge of his past selves, learning from his mistakes. It is very convenient that you handpicked out the most irrelevant part of the quote lol.

One thing for sure is that there's no proof at all that she's talking about his strength, speed and durability. Lol.

Again, blantly ignoring the fact that she literally said "we give over everything" and the increase in power Belcross received after the process.

PLANET SIZED ANT HEAPS

Calling Ant Heaps planet sized is an extremely laughable assertion, especially considering that there are multiple shots of Ant Heaps in comparison to actual planets that show them as blatantly smaller. The most prominent and indisputable example of this is seen in the first episode...

You do realize Ant Heaps vary in size... by pretty substantial margins.

There's like a dozen more of these but I think I got my point across.

Literally showing me an example of one of the smaller Ant Heaps is not getting your point across. But whatever makes you sleep at night.

Ant Heaps do vary in size but none of them are anywhere near as large as your average planet. The best part about your claim was that this is the link you posted to show an ant heap as "planet sized":

And there's absolutely nothing in that scan whatsoever that shows the Heap is the size of a planet. There's no planet in the frame to reference to. Only the curvature of the heap in comparison to tiny dots which are the ants themselves, most of whom max out at 30 meters in length and a few meters tall. The biggest heaps are the size of asteroids.

While there is nothing else to reference the Ant Heap to, we can look at art direction consistency and compare it to other planets. In the picture I showed, ants were mere dots in comparison to the planet itself.

No Caption Provided

Now when you look at the size of these ants in comparison to Jupiter, a large planet, they are drawn as comparable in size to the ants in the picture above.

No Caption Provided

Using the ants themselves as a reference point and comparing their size relative to Jupiter and their size relative to an Ant heap, you will find that they are surprisingly similar. Sure, the ant heaps maybe a little bit smaller in the Jupiter picture, but Jupiter is a large planet. I am only arguing that the Ant Heap is planet level, which I think is a pretty fair assertion given the evidence provided.

I love the fact that the gif you posted after this paragraph showed Bellcross destroying an Ant Heap that was the size of a large building. You can actually see that Ant Heap in comparison to the Yunos Knights whose suits are about 10x larger than humans. Also your link is broken, and I exposed your lie on the size of Ant Heaps so Asura's feat is still much better.

The size of a building? Really my dude lol.

But in all seriousness, you can't deny that the ant heap shown is easily planet level in size and scale.

GENERAL COUNTERS

You conceded durability so I'm not even gonna touch that but:

I just want to say that I conceded that one of the most powerful forms of Asura has superior durability to base form, pre multiplier Belcross, and I even said that it wasn't by that large of a margin. This should prove that Belcross is vastly more durable than Asura, but I will elaborate on that below.

The beam was light years in length and thick enough to completely enveloped Gaea/Earth. It was also moving at MFTL speeds. You could line up billions of planets side by side and if the beam was fired at them they would all get annihilated... Multi-planetary isn't a stretch in any sense of the word. This is much better than the Jupiter feat for reasons already stated.

And I concede that this is a better feat, sure. But when you stack upon the multiplier on top of Belcross' already impressive durability, Belcross should be more durable by a pretty substantial margin considering the fact that he should be above large planet level + durability by a pretty substantial margin.

In terms of whether or not Belcross can actually hurt Asura, Madness Belcross, pre multiplier, was able to generate large star level energies PASSIVELY, so this feat doesn't come close to that from a DC perspective.

This is terrible logic. First you label the section as "energy projection" but Bellcross was never shown projecting any energy blasts or releasing any energy from his body. He was fighting Artemia hand to hand. If anything that should lead you to conclusion that the A.I system was reading his internal energy.

Internal energy. Belcross was generating large star level internal energy? How would Belcross be able to destroy solar system if it was all internal energy? I mean really?

As for releasing energy from his body, I have shown Belcross PASSIVELY releasing energy equivalent to a large star going supernova. If that's not literally releasing energy from one's body, I don't know what is.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Are you actually saying Asura would be hit with supernova levels of force from just standing near to Bellcross? Since he's releasing this energy "passively"? If so I hope you see what's wrong with that implication... there was nothing that took damage from being in Beserk Bellcross' vicinity.

I am saying that while fighting Belcross (cause that is how the energy was generated), Asura will be hit with supernova levels of force, yes. And by releasing the energy passively, I mean releasing unconsciously releasing the energy while fighting, not necessarily just standing still.

And there was nothing SHOWN to have taken damage from being in Belcross' vicinity because not only was it offscreen, but it was Belcross was also fighting against other Nodos, who are pretty durable.

This isn't equivalent to destroying our real Solar System obviously, but it's far more impressive than literally anything Bellcross has ever done. It would take him many hours to do this (if we take the A.I. system statement at face value) and it took Asura 10 seconds. He also has no durability feats to suggest he can tank this.

Hold on. It was stated that Belcross would destroy the solar system THE A.I> system was in, which was different from the one Belcross was in. It would take Belcross hours to destroy multiple solar systems, yes, but one solar system should be a cake walk.

And with the multipler, Belcross should be capable of tanking Asura's attack. However, Asura has no feats that he can tank Belcross passively releasing supernova level energy, let alone a focused energy blast.

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@gearsecond659: This will probably be my last post, depending on your response. Keep that same energy and we can open for votes within the day.

Round 3 | Wrapping Up

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Multiplier

Logistically speaking, it makes perfect sense that his power would be multipled millions of times. If you fuse someone with millions of versions of their selves, their power would increase by an exponential margin. And while not explicitly stated, it was very heavily implied his power was multipled, evident by how different versions of Belcross were helping him to absorb the power of the Gold Tribe, a feat he was not able to accomplish by himself. So even if Belcross' power wasn't linearly multiplied millions of times over, there was still an exponential increase in power considering he was finally able to wield the power of the Gold Tribe, beings several tiers above what a Nodos is capable of.

If you agree that there's no way to know if Bellcross' stats were multiplied linearly, then the whole "millions of times more powerful" argument loses weight. It's obvious that Bellcross grew much more powerful after gaining the Tribe of Gold's power; that much I never disputed. But I feel it's a reach to argue he became a specific amount of times stronger when a) the statement we're basing that off of was worded in a way that doesn't make any sense b) we don't know if his stats were increased linearly, and c) he completed no feats after gaining the amp that would justify him being that strong (millions of times).

In regards to Madness, I'd argue that Belcross' Madness state was also multipled.

And that would be to your detriment, since Bellcross wasn't in Madness when Lecty amped him, and we didn't see her summon any versions of him that were.

Remember, Leqty can only go about hundreds of hours in the past, and in that time frame, all of the time remnants of Belcross have access to their Madness state.

Lecty also stated that she can only complete 20,000 jumps, yet she jumped millions of times to collect those past versions of Bellcross. Contradictions aside, I'm starting to realize that Lecty didn't go back into the past linearly. She stated, "Instead of interfering with the past and returning the present to nothingness... we [will] collect millions of pasts from faraway time and space", which leads me to believe she was referring to other timelines. This actually makes sense, because one version of a person only has one past. Furthermore, Bellcross wasn't even in Madness 100 hours or so before that scene happened.

Dude, it is called inference. When you see millions of Belcross' fusing with the current Belcross and helping him to contain a power that he wasn't able to contain alone, that leads me to conclude that their was some sort of increase in power, an exponential one at that.

Again, I never denied that he become overall more powerful. But we don't know if he was fused physically, spiritually, mentally or another way entirely. It's just incredibly unclear what happened, and Lecty's statement actually throws further confusion into the mix. At the end of the day, you've still presented no proof that his stats increased millions of times linearly and Bellcross is a predominantly physical fighter.

Personally, I think it was a millions times multiplier given the line "We collect millions of pasts from faraway time and space, and give over everything, rights and wrongs alike, to the future." First of all, from a writing perspective, why establish that there are millions of pasts being pulled from if that has no correlation with the fusing process? Moreover, the part of dialogue that talks about giving over everything, implies that there was some transferal of power taking place. The rights and wrongs part is a little vague, I will give you that, but looking at the line metaphorically, the implication is that the different Belcross' are literally giving everything to current Belcross, or the future, ranging from increased knowledge/awareness (giving over rights and wrongs) to power (giving over everything).

Semantics debates are generally frowned upon, and this is exactly why. You're deliberately misinterpreting Lecty's statement in order to suit your argument. I actually chuckled when reading this, because you seem to think that the "we give over everything" part of the statement is independent from the "rights and wrongs" part of the statement. The sentence reads "we give over everything, rights and wrongs alike, to the future", which CLEARLY shows us that "everything" in this context is in direct reference to the rights and wrongs. Lecty didn't say, we give over everything in addition to rights and wrongs. The everything IS the rights and wrongs.

It's the equivalent of me saying to a girl, "I give you everything, my heart and my soul, right now." When I use the word everything that way, I'm clearly talking about just my heart and soul, and not something like my hatred or my weaknesses. When Lecty said she'd give everything, rights and wrongs alike, everything obviously means those rights and wrongs. You have no proof that Bellcrosses "rights and wrongs" are his physical stats or energy projection, and unless you can prove it is, then your entire argument is still backed up by a statement that doesn't make sense.

Your problem is that you are looking at the line at face value without delving deeper while I am reading between the lines.

If reading between the lines is your way of saying, "I purposefully misconstrue statements to mean something they obviously don't", then sure.

Okay, this is BS and you know it. Kervius was soloing an entire group of Nodos with relative ease. And yet Belcross, with the Gold Tribe's power, oneshotted him. This feat alone puts Belcross in a tier of his own in terms of DC, and further supports the notion that his power was multiplied by a substantial amount.

Kervius' best durability feat is no-selling a planet level attack. One-shotting it would be a planet level+, a feat which Composite Asura has in spades. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't see the confusion here.

Other than her literally saying "we give over everything." Okay man, if you want to blantly ignore the part of her dialogue that basically confirms that there was a transfer of power, in addition to ignoring the fact that Belcross was finally able to wield the Gold Tribe's power AFTER THE PROCESS HAD FINISHED, then that's on you.

"Everything" clearly meant rights and wrongs. You have to prove that the rights and wrongs of Bellcross' past specifically alludes his physical stats/raw power. However, according to you-

Rights and wrongs to the future is a vague sentence, but looking at it metaphorically, it means that Belcross is being transferred the knowledge of his past selves, learning from his mistakes.

-rights and wrongs means knowledge in that context. Which ends the debate here.

Ant Heaps

You do realize Ant Heaps vary in size... by pretty substantial margins.

Wow, it's almost as if I didn't literally say this exact thing.

Literally showing me an example of one of the smaller Ant Heaps is not getting your point across. But whatever makes you sleep at night.

You post a screenshot of the Ant Heap you think is planet sized, so I don't need to scan bomb you with shots of clearly non-planet sized Ant Heaps to shut you down like I was originally planning to do. This will be easier to debunk.

While there is nothing else to reference the Ant Heap to, we can look at art direction consistency and compare it to other planets. In the picture I showed, ants were mere dots in comparison to the planet itself.

No Caption Provided

Now when you look at the size of these ants in comparison to Jupiter, a large planet, they are drawn as comparable in size to the ants in the picture above.

No Caption Provided

Using the ants themselves as a reference point and comparing their size relative to Jupiter and their size relative to an Ant heap, you will find that they are surprisingly similar. Sure, the ant heaps maybe a little bit smaller in the Jupiter picture, but Jupiter is a large planet. I am only arguing that the Ant Heap is planet level, which I think is a pretty fair assertion given the evidence provided.

Ants are a terrible metric, because they're visible dots in comparison to almost everything from a distance. Like the moon Io which was orbiting Jupiter:

Loading Video...

If we compare your scan of Jupiter and the thumbnail of this video, the ants appear as smaller blue dots in this video which would make Io planet sized. But we know how large Io is.

Image result for Io vs moon

And I'm pretty sure the dots in your scan of Jupiter are the Tribe of Silver ships, not the ants. Ants are always colorized as blue, even in comparison to Jupiter.

Loading Video...

I have an additional example. Here are Ants in comparison to Mars' moon Phobos, which is really a glorified asteroid.

No Caption Provided

And here are those same Ants in comparison to Mars..

Loading Video...

So by your logic, Phobos would be the size of a planet even though it's diameter is about 23km.

The size of a building? Really my dude lol.

Are you serious? You could literally see Yunos Knights in full view of it and they were standing directly next to the Heap.

But in all seriousness, you can't deny that the ant heap shown is easily planet level in size and scale.

Yes I can if you're using Ants being dots as your gauging instrument..

Everything else

I just want to say that I conceded that one of the most powerful forms of Asura has superior durability to base form, pre multiplier Belcross, and I even said that it wasn't by that large of a margin. This should prove that Belcross is vastly more durable than Asura, but I will elaborate on that below.

What proof is there to support the claim that Bellcross' durability was multiplied as a result Lecty giving him the "rights and wrongs" of his past selves?

In terms of whether or not Belcross can actually hurt Asura, Madness Belcross, pre multiplier, was able to generate large star level energies PASSIVELY, so this feat doesn't come close to that from a DC perspective.

If you want to make the assumption that Bellcross can fire off large supernova level energy blasts based on the A.I. reading statement, then go ahead. It won't be completely unfounded like the multiplier statement. My biggest only qualm is that you're saying he can release this energy passively, which implies that Bellcross will hurt me without actually attacking me. I'm not going to take damage by just being near him, that's totally false.

Internal energy. Belcross was generating large star level internal energy? How would Belcross be able to destroy solar system if it was all internal energy? I mean really?

He was going to obliterate the solar system after 100 hours due to an exponential increase in energy, and then die as a result of it, since Madness was stated several times to drive you to death. That could very well mean that his energy would grow to the point that he could no longer contain it, and upon release, it would take out the solar system and he would die too.

I'm still not convinced Bellcross can casually pop off large star level attacks in Madness. Even with the statement, the one time he was in Madness he fought Artemia h2h for an extensive period of time and didn't dish out any supernova level attacks. I mean, at least not visibly. In one of his clashes with Artemia in the starway, the collateral damage couldn't even destroy Tribe of Silver ships in pursuit. And they've been taken out by much less than large supernovas.

As for releasing energy from his body, I have shown Belcross PASSIVELY releasing energy equivalent to a large star going supernova. If that's not literally releasing energy from one's body, I don't know what is.

I meant releasing in the form of an attack, like an energy blast or a punch. I'm not saying he isn't capable, but we didn't see him do it, so I'm not sure why we assume he'll do it here.

I am saying that while fighting Belcross (cause that is how the energy was generated), Asura will be hit with supernova levels of force, yes. And by releasing the energy passively, I mean releasing unconsciously releasing the energy while fighting, not necessarily just standing still.

And there was nothing SHOWN to have taken damage from being in Belcross' vicinity because not only was it offscreen, but it was Belcross was also fighting against other Nodos, who are pretty durable.

Ok, that's what you meant.

Hold on. It was stated that Belcross would destroy the solar system THE A.I> system was in, which was different from the one Belcross was in. It would take Belcross hours to destroy multiple solar systems, yes, but one solar system should be a cake walk.

What? They were in the same solar system. That's why Nilval and her men were scared because he threatened their solar system along with them.

No Caption Provided

Gear, if I could give you some advice, don't blatantly lie in a CaV where anyone can check the facts. Especially when the person you're debating has knowledge on your character. I didn't think you would stoop this low...

And do you have any proof to suggest he could do it in a matter of seconds like Asura?

And with the multipler, Belcross should be capable of tanking Asura's attack. However, Asura has no feats that he can tank Belcross passively releasing supernova level energy, let alone a focused energy blast.

Your argument is hanging on a thread as it is. I debunked the multiplier argument and without it, you've topped no showings I've presented. Asura can one-shot dozens of planets in droves and destroy miniature stars like child's play.

Loading Video...

I'm sorry but these guys are just in a different weight class dude.

Conclusion

My original statement at the beginning of this match was that Asura wins due to simply having better feats. Throughout the course of the debate, I hope it's become apparent to some that my statement held true. Asura has clearer, more accessible feats that aren't weighed down by context.

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no one ever tags me Lol.....

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#41  Edited By HigherPower

@vsw: Sorry. I just quoted Gear's tag, which was a quote of mine that didn't include you originally.

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@higherpower: oh nah It's fine dw about it

Excellent post by the way

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Asura probably has the most clear cut quantifiable feats in all fiction.

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@higherpower:

CLOSER | THE LEADER OF THE HERO TRIBE

No Caption Provided

MILLIONS OF TIMES MULTIPLIER

If you agree that there's no way to know if Bellcross' stats were multiplied linearly, then the whole "millions of times more powerful" argument loses weight.

Woah there. And I am the one misinterpreting things lol. I never said that I agreed there was no way to know if Belcross' stats were multiplied linearly. I even stated in a later paragraph that in my personal belief, it was a millions times multiplier.

It's obvious that Bellcross grew much more powerful after gaining the Tribe of Gold's power; that much I never disputed.

You conceding to this fact means you lost this debate. Belcross is already comparable to Asura without the multiplier, but with the multiplier, Asura has no chance in hell of holding his own against Belcross considering it gives him an exponential power increase.

But I feel it's a reach to argue he became a specific amount of times stronger when a) the statement we're basing that off of was worded in a way that doesn't make any sense

I am not completely basing it off of the statement you are referring to. I am also using the writing such as saying that millions of pasts were pulled from and in universe logic as evidence.

b) we don't know if his stats were increased linearly,

...

You have to look at this from a writing perspective. Why would the writer include the bit of dialogue about there being millions of pasts being pulled from if that had no correlation with the fusing process. It just doesn't add up...

and c) he completed no feats after gaining the amp that would justify him being that strong (millions of times).

Again, he was able to one shot a being who was casually dealing with the other Nodos. That feat alone justifies him being millions of times stronger than before.

And that would be to your detriment, since Bellcross wasn't in Madness when Lecty amped him, and we didn't see her summon any versions of him that were.

I disagree, but for the sake of argument, let's say that Madness wasn't included. The feats I have shown for Belcross in base form show that Belcross is capable of giving Asura a good fight, so the multiplier should ensure that Belcross is strong enough to overpower Asura.

Again, I never denied that he become overall more powerful. But we don't know if he was fused physically, spiritually, mentally or another way entirely. It's just incredibly unclear what happened, and Lecty's statement actually throws further confusion into the mix. At the end of the day, you've still presented no proof that his stats increased millions of times linearly and Bellcross is a predominantly physical fighter.

At this point, you are just throwing arguments at a board and hoping they will stick. Fusing spiritually? Mentally? How would either of those examples result in an increase in power, which you conceded took place. It is pretty clear that Belcross fused physically.

And I have presented proof. Looking at this from a writing perspective, why else would the writer include the piece of dialogue saying there were millions of pasts being pulled from if there was no correlation between that and the fusing process?

Semantics debates are generally frowned upon, and this is exactly why. You're deliberately misinterpreting Lecty's statement in order to suit your argument. I actually chuckled when reading this, because you seem to think that the "we give over everything" part of the statement is independent from the "rights and wrongs" part of the statement. The sentence reads "we give over everything, rights and wrongs alike, to the future", which CLEARLY shows us that "everything" in this context is in direct reference to the rights and wrongs. Lecty didn't say, we give over everything in addition to rights and wrongs. The everything IS the rights and wrongs.

It's the equivalent of me saying to a girl, "I give you everything, my heart and my soul, right now." When I use the word everything that way, I'm clearly talking about just my heart and soul, and not something like my hatred or my weaknesses. When Lecty said she'd give everything, rights and wrongs alike, everything obviously means those rights and wrongs. You have no proof that Bellcrosses "rights and wrongs" are his physical stats or energy projection, and unless you can prove it is, then your entire argument is still backed up by a statement that doesn't make sense.

"Everything" clearly meant rights and wrongs. You have to prove that the rights and wrongs of Bellcross' past specifically alludes his physical stats/raw power. However, according to you rights and wrongs means knowledge in that context. Which ends the debate here.

That's all nice and dandy, but let's not forget that you conceded there was a stat increase with Belcross. If "everything" truly meant rights and wrongs, which I think we can collectively agree is not referring to physical stats, then that contradicts your previous concession. Belcross definitely received an amp in power, and to imply other whys by saying that "everything" means rights and wrongs is contradictory.

Second, don't paint a false picture here. My entire argument is not solely reliant on that particular argument. My argument is based on this in addition to Belcross receiving an amp in power due to one shotting Kervius and writing choices such as including the line of dialogue about there being millions of pasts to pull from.

Now I do concede to this point and admit that I jumped the gun on this, however this concession is inconsequential since your argument contradicts your previous assertions and what was established in the lore.

THE ANT HEAPS

Wow, it's almost as if I didn't literally say this exact thing.

My bad.

so I don't need to scan bomb you with shots of clearly non-planet sized Ant Heaps to shut you down like I was originally planning to do.

Such an attempt would be fruitless anyway since you already conceded that Ant Heaps vary in size.

Ants are a terrible metric, because they're visible dots in comparison to almost everything from a distance. Like the moon Io which was orbiting Jupiter:

And I'm pretty sure the dots in your scan of Jupiter are the Tribe of Silver ships, not the ants. Ants are always colorized as blue, even in comparison to Jupiter.

Oof. Shot yourself in the leg with that statement lol. Silver ships are significantly larger than ants, being comparable in size to Ant Heaps.

No Caption Provided

So the fact that Ants in comparison to the moon are the same size as Silver ships in comparison to the Ant Heap proves that an Ant Heap is significantly bigger than the moon. This is further proven by the fact that asteroid size Silver ships are mere dots in comparison to the Ant Heap is showed.

If we compare your scan of Jupiter and the thumbnail of this video, the ants appear as smaller blue dots in this video which would make Io planet sized. But we know how large Io is.

Again, Ants are significantly smaller than Ant Heaps and yet they were drawn as the same size relative to the Ant Heap and moon they were nearest to. This should tell you that an Ant Heap is bigger than a moon.

So by your logic, Phobos would be the size of a planet even though it's diameter is about 23km.

...

You can't seriously tell me that the Ants were the same size relative to Phobos as they were relative to Mars. The dots drawn to represent the Ants are significantly larger by a very noticeable degree.

GENERAL COUNTERS

What proof is there to support the claim that Bellcross' durability was multiplied as a result Lecty giving him the "rights and wrongs" of his past selves?

You admitted that he got more powerful, so now you are just going to pick and choose which stats got amped and which ones didn't? Losing credibility by the sentence my friend.

My biggest only qualm is that you're saying he can release this energy passively, which implies that Bellcross will hurt me without actually attacking me. I'm not going to take damage by just being near him, that's totally false.

I love how you claim that it is false and provide no evidence to support it. And once again you misconstrue what I am saying. Ia m saying that Belcross unconsciously releases supernova level energy while fighting. So he WILL be attacking you, he just want be consciously using energy based attacks.

He was going to obliterate the solar system after 100 hours due to an exponential increase in energy, and then die as a result of it, since Madness was stated several times to drive you to death. That could very well mean that his energy would grow to the point that he could no longer contain it, and upon release, it would take out the solar system and he would die too.

This all seems like a lot of speculation on your part with not a lot of evidence to back it up. And Madness drove users to death because of the physical toll it takes on the user's body: think Luffy's Gear Second. It was never stated that it was because of the energy being released. As for the rest of your claim, you really don't have a lot of evidence to back it up.

I'm still not convinced Bellcross can casually pop off large star level attacks in Madness. Even with the statement, the one time he was in Madness he fought Artemia h2h for an extensive period of time and didn't dish out any supernova level attacks. I mean, at least not visibly. In one of his clashes with Artemia in the starway, the collateral damage couldn't even destroy Tribe of Silver ships in pursuit. And they've been taken out by much less than large supernovas.

You do realize the statement was made AFTER the feat you referenced, right? I am beginning to doubt you even watched Heroic Age.

I meant releasing in the form of an attack, like an energy blast or a punch. I'm not saying he isn't capable, but we didn't see him do it, so I'm not sure why we assume he'll do it here.

Oof. Still doubting you have watcher Heroic Age. Belcross used energy projection as his first move against Kervius in their final fight.

No Caption Provided

What? They were in the same solar system. That's why Nilval and her men were scared because he threatened their solar system along with them.

Wow. Suspicions are confirmed. You haven't watched Heroic Age LMAO.

They were not in the same solar system. Nilval and her men were scared because Belcross threatened to destroy their solar system in a hundred hours, that much is correct, but Belcross was in a completely different solar system.

Here Belcross and Mehitak fight in Hyperspace which is later revealed to be for the extent of three hundred hours, more than enough time to reach another solar system. Nilval and company were staying behind to fight the Silver Tribe, but Belcross and Mehitak were far beyond the reaches of their solat system at that point.

And do you have any proof to suggest he could do it in a matter of seconds like Asura?

Well the exact time frame is unknown, and I will say that Belcross generates these level of energies OVER THE COURSE OF A FIGHT, as seen with Mehitak. However, I have no doubt that Belcross will have the chance to release the same level of energies agaisnt Asura because given their close stats, I'd imagine their fight would be long and drawn out, giving Belcross time to generate these level of energies.

I debunked the multiplier argument and without it, you've topped no showings I've presented. Asura can one-shot dozens of planets in droves and destroy miniature stars like child's play.

Yeah these feats come nowhere near Belcross casually releasing enough energy to obliterate a solar system and being exponentially above planetary with the multiplier in striking strength.
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#49  Edited By HigherPower
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@higherpower: Alrighty. Although there was a lot of salt in our CaV, I want to say you did really damn good and did not disappoint as a HoF. I wish you luck on your future CaVs and may the best man win :)