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#1 Edited by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio

Challenge - A - Viner

How do you fight an alternate version of yourself who lost his sense of morality, and the one who did not suffer the tragedy like you did? Welcome to battle of Supermen, one good and one evil. I'll be using Superman from the rebooted DC Continuity after Flashpoint, similar to Superman we all know and love today with few notable differences. My friend Major_Hellstorm will use Superman from Injustice, a continuity where Clark was tricked into murdering his wife Lois and their unborn child. Because of this, he forced justice upon the world but became a dictator.

New 52 Superman - Represented by KrleAvenger

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VS...

Injustice Superman - Represented by Major_Hellstorm

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The Rules

  • Combatants will fight at best of their abilities.
  • Combatants still need to be In Character to a degree.
  • Combatants do not have to worry about collateral damage.
  • Standard knowledge about each other.
  • Battle Field Removal (BFR) is not an option.
  • No Prep Time.
  • No amps.
  • Post-Flashpoint/New 52 Superman.
  • Injustice Superman is allowed Qwardian Power Ring.
  • Win by Death/Incap/KO.

Location

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Voting

This is a Challenge a Viner, a special type of battle forum where two debaters can have a nice argument between the two of them so we would appreciate if you would not interfere with that. Please don't make us call the mods.

Please don't say who you think would win until the debate is completely over. Again another reason why the debaters call the mods.

Ask to be tagged and you'll be reserved for voting at the end when you the debate is done. Even those who are not tagged and didn't ask to be tagged are still allowed to vote.

Keep your negative comments to yourself or at-least bring them forth when the debate is over. If some of us made a mistake bring it up but NOT BEFORE THE DEBATE IS OVER. Also please do not flood the thread with unneeded comments like talking about your own stuff or posting funny stuff unless you asked to be tagged in those comments.

Thanks for understanding and I hope you will enjoy.

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#2 Posted by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for voting.

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#3 Edited by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by Batman3000 (5636 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: Thanks for the tag I'll keep an eye on this :)

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#5 Edited by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#7 Posted by ginman333 (2913 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag. Good luck to both sides! I look forward to a great educational experience and thanks in advance for the effort!

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#8 Posted by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag. Good luck to both sides! I look forward to a great educational experience and thanks in advance for the effort!

Wow, thanks man.

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#9 Posted by ginman333 (2913 posts) - - Show Bio

NP buddy. When done right, CV is a great place to learn for casual fans like myself, especially on the DC side which I know far less about.

@ginman333 said:

Tag. Good luck to both sides! I look forward to a great educational experience and thanks in advance for the effort!

Wow, thanks man.

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#10 Posted by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by Chimeroid (9169 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#12 Posted by deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f (6669 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Edited by TheKinfing (11519 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#15 Posted by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by StormShadow_X (15932 posts) - - Show Bio

tag

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#17 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (15637 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by Battle123axe (8849 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by TheKinfing (11519 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio

@thekinfing: Ok. Although I would appreciate if you edit the comment.

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#22 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17147 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Edited by NaturallyGifted (808 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger I understand that you are the resident Superman expert, i was wondering if you'd like to be tagged for this CAV (I'm not participating or hosting) but if at the end you could provide some insight into the debate i believe it could help users vote accordingly.

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#25 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17147 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: Making the thread.

Yeah. I want to see which arguements you use so I know which scans to bring.

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#26 Posted by AmethystGravity (2188 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V!

And I think this is going to be a FANTASTIC debate!

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#27 Posted by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Alright.

T4V!

And I think this is going to be a FANTASTIC debate!

Long time no see man. Sure I will tag you. Thanks for the kind words.

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#28 Edited by Devil_Driver (1577 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for voting.

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#29 Posted by omnipotence88 (1209 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#30 Posted by Lvenger (36168 posts) - - Show Bio

@naturallygifted: I wasn't originally going to ask to be tagged but if you want me to give my thoughts, sure I'll ask to be tagged for votes.

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#31 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17147 posts) - - Show Bio

So many people are asking to be tagged with no openers out, now I have to put more effort into it now. Lol.

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#32 Posted by Cosmic_Templar (2571 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag.

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#33 Posted by AbelHsu (3533 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#34 Posted by Revan- (7959 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#35 Edited by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio

Kal-El/Clark Kent - Superman

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"So... What can you do?" - Justice League #1 - Justice League, Part One

I don't think this character needs introduction. After Flashpoint, Clark was just introduced as a character who was a bit more emotional and realistic (although not as nearly as much as Snyder's movie Superman), rather than being a full of boy scout and the embodiment of heroism like his Pre-Flashpoint counterpart. And his parents died before he became Superman, his stories have different feel to them, and shockingly, him and Lois are just friends. Wonder Woman was actually Clark's girlfriend in the New 52. Those changes are probably the reason why this version of Superman was killed at 52th issue of his series (which is actually the amount of issues almost all New 52 titles have) and replaced with original Pre-Flashpoint Superman who is married to Lois and has a son Jonathan. That being said, this Superman still has a lot of feats.

Powers and Abilities

You would be impressed how much showing of consistency and power level this Superman has shown, especially for the character who existed for less than 5 years. He is not as powerful as Pre-Flashpoint version but he is powerful enough to put him on the top of the food chain of comic book powerhouses and it will be extremely difficult taking him down without having any special type of versatility or a lot of hax. His powers include...

  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Speed and Reflexes
  • Increased Perception
  • Enhanced Brain Functions
  • Flight
  • Nigh-Invulnerability
  • Heat Vision
  • Super and Freeze Breath
  • Super Senses
  • Super Vision
  • Genius Level Intelligence
  • Fighting and Tactical Skill
  • Medicine

For now, I'll just post some of his average feats so you can have an idea on what kind of powerhouse you are dealing with. I will mostly focus on strength, speed and durability, at least for now. Other powers and abilities may turn out to be useful as the argument continues.

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Strength

I know Injustice Superman with Qwardian Power Ring is stronger than your average alternate version of Superman. He was able to push Mogo all the way from the Earth to the Sun. However, I don't remember how big Injustice Version of Mogo is. What is it's size compared to Earth's Moon or the Earth itself? If there is a scan that shows Mogo on the same panel as either Earth or the Moon, would you mind posting that scan? Because I doubt it is as impressive as Clark's planetary strength feat that pretty much everybody knows about on this site, where he was benching/pressing it's weight for five days strait and he was surprised to find out it was that easy. Not to mention he wasn't charged by the Sunlight Superman Vol. 3 #13.

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I don't think I have to focus more on Superman's strength. This feat looks more impressive to me than Injustice Superman's Mogo feat. Plus strength is not the greatest factor in a fight, but if I have to prove Superman operates on this strength level consistently, I'll be happy to provide more feats similar to this one (believe me, this is not the only instance this version of Superman was introduced as a character with planetary strength).

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Striking Power

At this point everybody should know the difference between the two. Both of these guys have enough strength to move celestial bodies. Does that mean they can shatter them or destroy them completely? No, of course not. Can an average male lift a chair? I am pretty sure he can. Can he shatter it with his punch? I doubt it. Same goes to Comic Book Powerhouses. They can't actually destroy the planet even if they can lift it. However, New 52 Superman's striking power is extremely impressive. It is not on the same level as his Pre-Flashpoint counterpart (none of his powers are on the same level as his Pre-Flahpoint version, besides strength), but I am pretty sure it is more than enough to put Injustice Superman down.

=====================================================================================

Let's look at Superman Vol. 3 #13, the issue where Superman encountered a Kryptonian dragon. Right at the time he saw him, he looked like a treat (obviously, it was a huge dragon), so Clark punched it with enough force to topple a small mountain.

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He didn't want to risk and he unleashed so much force in only one blow right away. Fact that this feat is one of Superman's less impressive ones and knowing that Clark won't have to think about unleashing or not unleashing the full force of his blows against an evil version of himself amped with the power ring of Sinestro Corp, I don't think Injustice Superman could hold his own against this Superman for more than one minute.

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If statement is not enough for you, let's look at Superman's final confrontation with a powerful foe Helspont. Clark blitzed him and shattered a mountain in the process Superman Vol. 3 #8

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I think this is enough for now.

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Speed

This is another reason why I don't see Injustice Superman standing a chance against New 52 Superman. From what I remember, his combat speed, reaction time speed and blitzes are comparable to Wolverine's. Of course I could be wrong about it but, like most abilities Superman has, I doubt Injustice Superman's stats are comparable to New 52's Version, and same goes for speed. According to Clark and article he wrote himself, his speed is rivaling the speed of lightning Superman Vol. 3 #1

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This makes sense because in Action Comics Vol. 2 #6, Cosmic Man actually claimed young Superman is faster than lightning.

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Considering the fact that Cosmic Man actually has the ability to perceive the world around him as patterns of electrical energy and the ability to detect it (as well as magnetic energy), I consider his statement to be a fact, rather than a hyperbole.

==================================================================================

I can calculate the if it turns out to be necessary on the next post.

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Durability

Again, my knowledge on Injustice Superman's power level is pretty limited. I didn't really bother to even notice his feats because of how good the story is. The only memorable feat is that Mogo feat from the end of Year Two, so I have no idea how hard he strikes. I'm not gonna jump to any conclusions right now, I'm just gonna post durability feats.

=================================================================================

To my knowledge, Injustice Clark never used the ring to shot energy blasts, right? Because if that is the case, most feats I'm gonna post shows Clark's durability against blunt force attacks, like when he tanked a beating from fully grown Doomsday while at the same time getting weakened by his extremely powerful poison unleashed to the surroundings, making Clark tear him apart which is actually get another extremely impressive strength feat Superman: Doomed #1

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To provide some context, Clark needed like a second to blitz Doomsday away from Earth to Venus. Than he was wrestling with him for like few seconds until he burned him with his heat vision. Than he came back and the next panel is first scan above. He was only few seconds close to Doomsday and the poison already weakens him, to the point that he wants to collapse. Than Doomsday (who regenerated from heat vision) teleports back and beats the shit out of Superman for few seconds and with every second he is affected by poison even more. And he still had enough strength to tear him apart (and Doomsday is durable himself) and had enough durability to tank his blows. Mostly he collapsed because of poison and the fact that he was getting infected by the Doomsday virus at the time he killed Doomsday.

====================================================================================

As I said above, this is fully grown Doomsday. According to Lex Luthor, the original New 52 Doomsday was a larva, but this one was an adult who gained the ability to kill everything around it with the poison. Scans are from the same issue (Superman: Doomed #1).

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==================================================================================

Way weaker Doomsday pretty much stomped Wonder Woman Superman/Wonder Woman #2

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Clark also tanked zero damage after Helspont threw a debris from the top of the mountain at him Superman Vol. 3 #8

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I don't know how powerful Injustice Superman's Heat Vision is so I'm gonna ask right now, is it capable of destroying the continent? Because Superman tanked a blast from Jochi's laser gun that has enough fire power to crack the continent, and he tanked it pretty easily, without any sign of damage or pain what so ever Batman/Superman Annual Vol. 1 #1

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Speed Blitz/Bullrush

Superman loves to blitz people. I think he was doing it more often than Pre-Flashpoint Superman and it is totally in character for him do to so. Providing the consistency won't be a problem for this version of Superman. He blitzed Hal Jordan and punched him in the face Justice League Vol. 2 #1

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This Hal Jordan is a rookie and his speed is not on the same level as it is now. This instance was shown only to prove Superman can and will blitz Injustice Superman to finish the fight as fast as he can. He actually used this tactic against Orion, a character who is a physical match for him and himself claimed how he felt his punches and nobody hit him that hard in his life. And Superman bullrushed him into the ground, punching him extremely fast over and over again, to the point of totally destroying his helmet and creating a deep hole in the ground while at the same time tanking Orion's blows without much damage Superman Vol. 3 #20

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Summary

This is just the opener and as I said, I don't know a lot about Injustice Superman's feats. So for now, I'm just gonna summarize my post.

  • New 52 Superman can lift planetary bodies and kill Top Tier Powerhouses with strength alone without being at his peak
  • A single blow from New 52 Superman can shatter mountains, and there is way more where that came from.
  • New 52 Superman's speed is comparable to the speed of lightning if not even faster.
  • New 52 Superman can tank blows from most powerful version of New 52 Doomsay while being extremely weakened.
  • A laser capable of cracking the continent didn't even make Superman feel anything.
  • New 52 Superman will blitz and bullrush Injustice Superman while consistently beating him up with mountain busting punches.

====================================================================================

And there it comes that classic way to end the post... good luck mate. Using Superman is really fun to be honest.

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#36 Posted by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17147 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: Cool, I will not go through your entire post for counters and will only cover your summery, but I will take everything into account.

(Also I found the constuct feats, don't know why I thought he never used them).

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#38 Edited by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: There might be some stuff in my post you should counter or at least answer some questions I asked.

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#39 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17147 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: If it is needed I will, I haven't read everything as of now.

How many posts are we going for btw?

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#40 Edited by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17147 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: I am good with either (the less posts the longer the post though).

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#42 Posted by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17147 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: I will have a post up by the weekend.

Just want to clarify one thing, the feats when Injutice Supes first got his ring is allowed right (he does not show any thing that would give me an advantage or at least not a game changing one)?

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#44 Posted by NaturallyGifted (808 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@naturallygifted: I wasn't originally going to ask to be tagged but if you want me to give my thoughts, sure I'll ask to be tagged for votes.

Thank you :)

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#45 Posted by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17147 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by tensor (8354 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be good.

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#48 Posted by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#49 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17147 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by KrleAvenger (26110 posts) - - Show Bio