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#1 Edited by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio
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VS

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Rules

  • Morals on
  • Standard equipment
  • Pre-52/New-52 feats apply for Batman
  • Dim lighting, nighttime
  • No prep
  • No interference in debate. Debate until one concedes or disagreement, then votes
  • I will be doing the opener

Setting

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@nickzambuto

Tagged for voting:

@deathandgrim

@mikep12

@reaverlation

@neongamewave

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#2 Posted by GhostRavage (14924 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: OP callouts don't work, you should write down an extra comment to call him. I'll do it for ya... @nickzambuto

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#3 Posted by DeathandGrim (4753 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: Oh do please tag me for voting

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#4 Edited by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

*lights cigar*

This is good, isn't it?

*Dies.*

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#6 Posted by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I'm still doing my opener, I had to go away. IF it isn't posted today, will be tomorrow.

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#7 Posted by mikep12 (4266 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for voting this should be well you know. Oh wait. You don't. But anyway good luck to you both

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#8 Posted by reaverlation (25536 posts) - - Show Bio

Let me know when this is done :)

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#9 Posted by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio

Firstly, I want to start the debate by dismantling the argument that ''Batman is only a human and therefore physically he is outclassed'' - this is not an argument that has been used thus far here, but such an argument needs to consider that Batman has already performed physical feats that exceed human capability by our standards. Peak-humans in comic-books are not peak-humans in real life, as peak-humans in reality are bound by realism (something which not even the weaker movie incarnations are).

Just to prove he has exceeded such capability, here are a few of his strength feats:

Strength

He wrestles and chokes out a Tiger in Detective Comics #612.

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Punches through bricks and kicks down a tree easily in Batman Year One.

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Furthermore, he was able to kick down a pillar (while he had been shot in the same leg) in Batman Year One.

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Now that is out of the way. Let me begin my argument.

A major advantage that Batman has is stealth. I acknowledge that Snake has utilized his stealth to the the point that it seems he can just disappear and re-appear at will, or utilizing it against the Genome Army (who are of course, super soldiers) - but Batman has the advantage in stealth. It is incorrect to assume that Batman's stealth is only used against thugs, his stealth-capability is incredibly impressive.

Batman's stealth abilities go as far as Jay Garrick being unable to find him after his shadow had disappeared from sight, from DC Two Thousand #1:

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Furthermore, in Batman: Confidential #53 he escaped from Martian Manhunter when the lights merely turned off (Martian Manhunter is a superhuman with superhuman senses):

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He has literally been able to disappear from Superman and Captain Atom after speaking a few words:

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Clearly Batman's stealth-capabilities are very real. Not only does he utilize it against thugs and street-levelers, but it's gone as far as working against super-humans. Given the setting of this fight, Batman is more likely to successfully be able to disappear. It is night-time and the lighting is dim. This advantage will allow him to get the drop on Snake, Snake has 'superhuman senses' yet Batman has on more than one occasion displayed the ability to escape super-humans. Snake does not have the stealth-advantage here, Batman can create several opportunities to use such a advantage.

Now he isn't exactly going to just show up and disappear, he has the arsenal to do so - as a means of distraction. Batman nearly always utilizes his gadgets, and has done-so for a distraction. Not only does he distract thugs but also street-levelers, against Snake he can use a wide array of weapons. One weapon he could use for example is a fire-batarang.

From Batman Volume 2 #20:

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Against Snake, it would distort his infa-red senses. This however, is only one of the ways in which he could distract Snake.

The scan posted is of the New-52 Batman (who retained most of his Pre-52 canon), the New-52 has put more emphasis on his gadgets. Here he uses a laser from his gauntlet from The Dark Knight Volume 2 #22.

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Furthermore, he has heat-sensors of his own in the New-52. He can also spot people with them.

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This is why Snake's infa-red or night-vision won't be that much of a problem for Batman. Batman will be able to spot him, he will be able to distract him and he definitely has the ability to escape from him and utilize his stealth. Snake may have used his stealth against the Generome Army, but Batman has used it so against super-humans around Superman level. Furthermore, his arsenal of weapons can be used as both weapons and a distraction - which make his stealth easier to utilize.

And he's a much better fighter than Snake. It is known that he knows 127 martial arts styles, but what people don't acknowledge is how useful this can really be. Batman uses pressure-points and nerve-strikes, which disable opponents much quicker than strikes/kicks. Snake is not adapt to nerve-strikes, which have the ability to drastically slow him down or temporary paralyze him, especially coming from a man that not only has superior arsenal, better stealth and comparable physicals.

Just to start off, Bruce has nearly mastered every never-strike known to man. Nightwing mentions in Batgirl #29 that there isn't a nerve-strike Bruce doesn't know.

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The statement has validity.

He has used it against characters such as Green Arrow and had little trouble in disabling his arm and then allowing him to remove it with simple touches (Legends of The Dark Knight #128):

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To say his martial-arts is a non factor is simply ridiculous, because it is one of the factors that enables to him to contend with stronger characters and super-humans. The scans emphasize his effectiveness, with minimal energy he can disable body-parts. Granted, Snake will not be an easy fight, he can still utilize pressure-points in fights. Snake's durability will not help him either. Nerve strikes are designed to get around durability:

From Detective Comics Volume 2 #17 he knocks out a steroid enhanced lifter who is impervious to pain. He uses martial arts and pressure-points. Pressure points are a shortcut around durability.

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Essentially, he has effectively utilized it in close-quarters combat. Snake does not have the skill to the point where he can utilize nerve-strikes so easily, nor is his arsenal as versatile as Batman's, his stealth is impressive but Batman has consistently used it against super-humans.

Oh, and in case he gets shot in the face (which he won't, as he's a bullet-timer) - he always has that transparent voice-activated bullet shield as seen in Batman: Odyssey #3.

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#11 Posted by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio
@frozen said:

@nickzambuto: Are we still at this?

Of course!

I love how Batman's fist is bigger than his head in the OP pic.

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#15 Posted by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@nickzambuto: Are we still at this?

Of course!

I love how Batman's fist is bigger than his head in the OP pic.

Okay.

LOL, typical Jim Lee artwork.

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#16 Posted by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Edited by NeonGameWave (19333 posts) - - Show Bio

I`m keeping my eye on this one :)

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#18 Posted by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave: Please do! Would you like to be tagged for voting?

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#19 Posted by NeonGameWave (19333 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen

Alright, so I'm noticing a bit of a misconstruance on your part almost immediately into the debate. Your points about Batman's martial arts and stealth are sound for the most part, but you're doing it from the perspective that Solid Snake is some brawny, generic super soldier with guns. That's only a half truth, because whereas it's a fact that David was born to be a one-man army who can raid battlefields and turn the tides of war singlehandedly, it's also a fact that he can infiltrate and then sabotage some of the world's most fortified and heavily guarded structures without raising a peep while outsmarting the brilliant, insane war mongers threatening global domination. Solid Snake is more than just a soldier, he's a genius with an IQ of 180, a world renowned tactician, one of the most skilled close quarters combatants on the planet, he's proficient with virtually every weapon in existence, and he has more than his fair share of ninja in him.

Solid Snake was not created to be the ultimate soldier, he was created to be the ultimate weapon, and as such holds a variety of skills and abilities to suit his very versatile career. Being a clone of Big Boss, (the man known as the greatest warrior to have ever lived, and held a "military mind that was unparalleled throughout the world") Solid Snake was genetically crafted and enhanced since before he was even born. The Patriots themselves provided him with the best teachers and trainers possible (The Patriots are an organization that rules the world), and he was inducted into the Green Berets at the age of 14 where he took part in missions overseas during the Gulf War. Throughout his career, Solid Snake has been a member of numerous military divisions and special forces agencies, including acting as a CIA assassin where it's implied he was responsible for the murders of several despotic dictators across the world. After joining FOXHOUND and earning his codename, David quickly rose through the ranks and established himself as a naturally talented fighter and one of the organizations best, despite only being a rookie at the time. For reference, this is the FOXHOUND entrance exam.

Physical

  • Physical fitness test
  • Short-distance running
  • Uninterrupted performance of 80 push-ups
  • Uninterrupted performance of 100 sit-ups
  • 50 meter freestyle-stroke swim
  • Combat diving skill
  • Cross-country march (travelling 64 km [40 miles] in under 15 hours, carrying a 30 kg [67 pounds] backpack)

Psychological

  • Mental recovery, concentration, endurance, self-control and the fortitude to overcome difficult situations
  • ESP expectancy score
  • Marksmanship
  • Recognizing and making decisions in emergency situations

Intelligence

  • Foreign languages
  • Foreign geography
  • Knowledge of world events
  • Advanced technology
  • Medical procedures
  • Detonation operations
  • Stealth communication
  • Foreign weaponry

After passing the selection courses, the recruits then partake in professional training exercises (also known as drills), which include:

  • Battlefield survival (14 weeks)
  • Shooting practice (must score at least 95% for a target at 914 m [3,000 ft], and 100% for a target at 548 m [1,800 ft])
  • Guard patrol
  • Mountaineering
  • Hand-to-hand combat
  • Border infiltration
  • Guerrilla warfare
  • Land navigation
  • Map-reading
  • Escape and evasion
  • Combat medical skills
  • Rebelling and Ranger practice
  • Weapons familiarization
  • Nautical vehicle control and navigation
  • Diving and underwater infiltration
  • Canoeing
  • Basic military parachute skills (4 weeks)Intelligence gathering
    • Special operations freefall practice (High-Altitude, Low-Opening [HALO] and High-Altitude, High-Opening [HAHO])
    • 11 jumps carrying little to no combat equipment ("Hollywood")
    • 15 jumps with full combat equipment
    • 2 nighttime jumps
    • 2 mass-tactical strategic jumps
  • Language and customs of the destination country (4 weeks)
  • Stealth techniques
  • Improvised explosive devices
  • Utilization of high-tech equipment
  • Communications (16 weeks)
  • Medical exam (10 weeks)
  • Torture endurance (FOXHOUND operatives were instructed to conceal any and all information while under torture. This is confirmed during one dialogue between Solid Snake and a disguised Liquid Snake, during Snake´s captivity while on the island. Liquid, while portraying Miller, personally instructs Snake not to reveal anything on the operation, "not even The Big Four" - a soldier´s name, rank, age and serial number - trivial information, which would normally be allowed for a POW to share).

FOXHOUND was the most elite black ops agency in the world, with it's members being so highly skilled that they were considered to be the modern day version of ninja; at least, those in the government with high enough security clearance to know that the organization exists thought that. And this was just the entrance exam, what you need to do just to become a soldier. David however, immediately after joining, rose to extremely high ranks.

My point in going over all this is just to give people a background of Solid Snake's training history. Batman has one of the most well documented training histories around, but I believe Solid Snake can definitely match him in this regard what with being trained since birth by the Patriots and then later FOXHOUND, where he acted as the personal disciple of both Kazuhira Miller and Big Boss, and later still would receive further mentoring by Gray Fox on the field, these three characters are not only extremely notorious and renowned combatants, but also have a plethora of feats to their names, Big Boss specifically, whereas Bruce Wayne's training was mostly under anonymous "masters" with no real proof to just how skilled they were. But I digress. I hope this gives not just Frozen, but everyone a better idea of how elite Solid Snake is. Now, let me address those feats you posted.

He wrestles and chokes out a Tiger in Detective Comics #612.

I actually don't think that's very impressive. I mean sure it's a bit beyond normal human standards, but for a comic book peak human like Batman it's pretty tame. Even the heaviest tigers only weigh around 500 pounds, and straddling one and choking it would be a lot easier than lifting it. I know Batman has better. Snake's feats blow this instance out of the water, using his strength and technique to get Vamp in a grapple, and in his prime briefly putting the Cyborg Ninja in a submission hold.

Keep in mind, not only are both of these fighters literally hundreds of times stronger than a tiger, but also master-class martial artists who could not counter Solid Snake's techniques.

So while I completely agree with you on the "Batman is peak human but that doesn't make him outclassed" thing, I believe that Snake's feats in addition to his genes are still superior.

Punches through bricks and kicks down a tree easily in Batman Year One.

Furthermore, he was able to kick down a pillar (while he had been shot in the same leg) in Batman Year One.

Now that's what I'm talking about. Some real peak human striking feats, SUPER impressive. However, whereas Batman in his rookie years knocked down pillars and trees, Snake in his rookie years tore down a whole wall.

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Keep in mind, this was a prison cell Snake busted out of, so it's not exactly plywood he's putting his hand through.

It's not even his best feat, just the most comparable to Bruce knocking down trees and bricks, so I'll leave it at this for now.

Batman's stealth abilities go as far as Jay Garrick being unable to find him after his shadow had disappeared from sight, from DC Two Thousand #1:

That's impressive, albeit a bit overblown. People need to remember that super speed doesn't give Jay Garrick intimate knowledge of where a stealth expert would be hiding. All Batman had to do was find one good spot that Jay wouldn't even think of, and then he'd be safe forever, no matter how much super speed Flash has. So in this case, I believe Snake's showings against skilled opponents would be more impressive than Batman's showing against a fast character. I mean it's still super impressive quick thinking, but nothing outside of Solid Snake's comfort zone since he too is a stealth master.

Furthermore, in Batman: Confidential #53 he escaped from Martian Manhunter when the lights merely turned off (Martian Manhunter is a superhuman with superhuman senses):

He has literally been able to disappear from Superman and Captain Atom after speaking a few words:

Two more very cool showings, but there's no indication that J'onn and Clark didn't notice Batman leave. I mean it's not like either of them were actively trying to stop him, they just stood there passively and let Bruce do whatever it is he wanted to do. So we do need to keep that in mind, it's also been revealed in other encounters that Batman uses tech to sneak up on the league in order to quiet himself, whereas Solid Snake can move with absolute silence by virtue of sheer skill. He was taught stalking techniques by Big Boss that let him walk without making any noise at all, albeit very slowly, and the Metal Gear Solid 4 novelization describes him as using Native American tracking techniques to sneak by a group of guards in plain sight without being spotted. While tailing a member of the Paradise Lost Army (clip below) Old Snake is described as lowering his breath and heart beat to conceal his being, and literally becoming one with the city and surroundings, or something to that effect. Now if Superman actually tried to grab Bruce, but he had already disappeared and then Clark was unable to locate him, THEN I would admit that Snake is at a severe disadvantage in the stealth department. However, considering all Batman did was leave the room, I'm inclined to say Solid Snake could do the same.

Here's Snake easily sneaking around Shadow Moses and infiltrating the main complex while it's being guarded by Genome Soldiers. Pretty impressive since each of these men are enhanced with Solid Snake's own genes and have superhuman senses, yet not a single one would ever realize somebody was there. Call them canon fodder if you want, but I don't believe Batman has ever been able to slip past canon fodder this elite.

Here's Snake stealthing a squad of elite Spetsnaz soldiers. The second team moves in immediately after he kills the first, but somehow Snake managed to materialize outside the train car without being spotted, despite the soldiers being equipped with infrared goggles.

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Another instance of Snake seeming to teleport, the soldier sees him duck behind the rubble, when he looks behind said rubble Snake is in front of him.

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Old Snake was able to trail a Paradise Lost Army member all the way back to their hideout without being noticed, despite the entire city being deserted (therefore Snake wouldn't be able to blend with a crowd or anything and had to remain out of sight the entire time). When he arrives, Snake is clearly visible right behind the soldier before the camera pans, and as he looks behind him, Snake is already gone and moved behind him.

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Similar to the above scene, Snake is clearly standing right in front of the Darpa Chief when a soldier pops up, the camera pans back and Snake has vanished. This scene comes from the somewhat-canon Twin Snakes, so I hope you'll be okay with me pulling the scene out since you're using Pre and New 52 feats.

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From Metal Gear Solid 2, Raiden hears Snake's voice behind him, but when he turns around no body is there. The camera pans and then Solid Snake materializes from thin air. Not only that, but the fact that he got so close to Raiden without the ninja getting any indication that he was followed is amazing in itself considering Raiden is pretty darn stealthy himself.

Just a small taste of Solid Snake's stealth skills to start us off. So far we have:

  1. Sneaking past a large group of soldiers with enhanced senses, then remaking that it was "almost too easy"
  2. Using stealth to kill a group of elite Spetsnaz and going undetected by their infrared vision in a confined area
  3. Several instances of vanishing, showing great reflexes
  4. Sneaking up on Raiden and materializing from thin air

Clearly Batman's stealth-capabilities are very real. Not only does he utilize it against thugs and street-levelers, but it's gone as far as working against super-humans. Given the setting of this fight, Batman is more likely to successfully be able to disappear. It is night-time and the lighting is dim. This advantage will allow him to get the drop on Snake, Snake has 'superhuman senses' yet Batman has on more than one occasion displayed the ability to escape super-humans. Snake does not have the stealth-advantage here, Batman can create several opportunities to use such a advantage.

Your stealth feats for Batman are all very very impressive. However, even if there skills are tied, or hell let me play devil's advocate and say Batman is actually more skilled at stealth, either way, Batman still can not sneak up on Solid Snake. His senses are very advanced, shown in the beginning of Metal Gear Solid 2 where he discerned the make of a helicopter just by the sound of it's rotor blades in the distance, through heavy rain and lightning.

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However, I acknowledge Batman's feats against the JLA as enough proof that Snake won't hear him coming. Luckily for me though, Solid Snake has more than just senses. His abundance in Soldier Genes granted him more than just enhanced physicality and mental abilities; Snake has keen instincts, being able to detect Raiden when he aims his gun despite being fast asleep.

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David had just lost several pints of blood after an encounter with Vamp, and could barely walk. He falls asleep yet snaps to attention instantly when Raiden aims his gun; impressive considering multiple CODEC calls ringing in his ear barely stirred him.

I don't think Raiden is quite as stealthy as Batman, but he's still good enough to make fools out of Gurlukovich's mercenary force, one of the most dangerous groups on the planet who were shown early in the game to have attuned senses themselves, sneaking up on trained Marines and all. Raiden knows how to lower his presence, but Snake detected him while dead asleep and half-dead from blood loss, so Batman is going to have a tough time against David when he's actively searching for him.

If that still isn't enough for you, Snake's plethora of highly advanced gear is pretty much tailor made for making him un-stealthable. Starting with the Solid Eye, as far as I know, Bruce's suit doesn't hide his heat signature or heart rate, so he should be spotted almost instantly.

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The Solid Eye has a variety of ways to detect Bruce, regardless of his stealth skill.

Meanwhile, despite his cowl, Batman can not detect Snake! Stealth skill aside, the OctoCamo suit automatically copies the pattern and texture of whatever it's pressed up against, making Snake virtually invisible to the naked eye.

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Not only that, but it also renders him undetectable to infrared, as shown during his brief skirmish with several Gekko early on in MGS4.

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Batman's best chance of spotting Snake is with his naked eyes, but considering OctoCamo coupled with David's natural sneaking talent, not to mention the fact that with the Solid Eye he'll have eyes on Bruce constantly and will therefore know exactly where to maneuver, that isn't happening.

One weapon he could use for example is a fire-batarang.

From Batman Volume 2 #20:

Against Snake, it would distort his infa-red senses. This however, is only one of the ways in which he could distract Snake.

With the Solid Eye analyzing Batman's gear, he'll probably be aware that his opponent is carrying some incendiary weapon, and be prepared for it. I doubt that little flame will affect the Solid Eye very much, but regardless, it'll need to be switched to infrared mode first, and Batman has no way of knowing when that is.

Here he uses a laser from his gauntlet from The Dark Knight Volume 2 #22.

How's that going to help?

Furthermore, he has heat-sensors of his own in the New-52. He can also spot people with them.

So long as Snake has OctoCamo that won't help.

Another gadget of Snake's that can possibly counter your distraction tactic is the Mk. II.

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If Snake finds a safe spot to bunker down, he can activate manuel control of the mini-Metal Gear and use it for scouting. It can turn completely invisible, so Bruce won't be spotting it, and it's equipped with a powerful stun rod that will definitely put the hurt on Batman if he's whacked with it.

Snake also has Chaff Grenades which will disable every electrical device on Batman's person, Stun Grenades, C4, and even a Rail Cannon to obliterate Batman, so he's pretty well stocked himself, I don't think Bruce has a gear advantage.

Continuing with the stealth arguments, there is one final glaring flaw in your strategy, that being Batman NEVER uses stealth combatively. When faced against a skilled martial artist or street leveler, he almost always goes H2H with them. The most Bruce has ever done is get in a sneak attack before starting up the martial arts battle, but Snake on the other hand actively utilizes his stealth in battle, constantly. Like I mentioned, the man is proficient with virtually every firearm in existence, but it's said numerous times that his greatest weapon is stealth. With it, Solid Snake is capable of easily dominating foes who would normally be far outside of his weight class. Take for example, Vulcan Raven.

Raven is a Shaman and a mystic. He holds a wealth of superhuman skills and abilities, including extrasensory perception and enhanced senses. On paper, he is a foe that Solid Snake should have no hope of defeating. His minigun holds a much greater rate of fire than pretty much any other firearm, and he wields it with super soldier skill. However all that said, David was not only capable of dodging his canon, something that Raven even compliments him on, but disappears during the assault and continues to sneak around Raven, somehow managing to hold an entire conversation with him while remaining undetected.

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You can skip the chatter since it's just plot stuff with Snake sneaking around. At 9:10, after hearing what he needed to know, Snake skillfully plants a claymore in Raven's path, and while the giant is stunned, appears from nowhere to empty his clip at point blank for the finish.

If Batman fought Raven he'd probably just try a bunch of pressure points or something. Not fight tactically like Snake.

I'll reply to the martial arts part in a bit, I'm being pulled away from the computer right now unfortunately.

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#22 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

nice, please tag me for votes.

Also, terrible pic for Snake, just saying :P

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#23 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

nice, please tag me for votes.

Also, terrible pic for Snake, just saying :P

I kinda like it :P how he kept the OP simple and small as opposed to usual CAV threads with their little pictures and formatting blah blah. The OP is only there to state who's fighting, it's up to us to make our characters look badass.

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#24 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I respect your opinion, but don't agree with. Yes, it's up us make them badass, but kickass pic is always a way to show and prepare people, giving them a glance of what is comming :P

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#25 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

About Snake's close quarters skill, I know that Batman has studied many different styles of martial arts, but contrary to your claim about how useful that is, it's never actually made a difference. Bane, Deathstroke, and David Cain can all give Bruce a very hard time despite only having a few styles under their belt, and even Bat-Family members like Nightwing and Catwoman who are roughly in Batman's league aren't stated to have knowledge on more than a handful of styles. It's all about using what you do know effectively, and when it comes to CQC, Solid Snake is the master. His father, Big Boss, invented the style and therefore knew every single possible technique the art had to offer, yet David was able to best him several times in his own style because he used those techniques more effectively. Same with Batman, even if Bruce does know more techniques, Snake still knows his own a lot more intimately.

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One Mr. Bruce Lee summarized my point quite nicely,

"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

This quote is a simple fact in real world martial arts, and considering the aforementioned characters being more than a match for Bruce Wayne, I'd assume it's true in comics too. Bane specifically since he doesn't know ANY martial arts, and only uses an assortment of moves that he was just able to figure out on his own in prison. And before you bring up the whole "Bane only keeps up because he's stronger" argument, Batman is about ten times faster, more agile, has body armor, an assortment of weapons and gadgets, various skills besides just martial arts, and still barely defeats Bane. I'm not using this to lowball Batman, just saying that more martial arts =/= better fighter.

Batman uses pressure-points and nerve-strikes, which disable opponents much quicker than strikes/kicks. Snake is not adapt to nerve-strikes, which have the ability to drastically slow him down or temporary paralyze him,

Pressure point showings are useless in comic books because the characters who use them never, ever actually use them against other martial artists. If Batman could disable Snake as quickly as you imply, why didn't he just throw a few pokes at Deathstroke during any of their infamous fights instead of getting his butt kicked? The only logical answer I can come up with is that since pressure points and nerve strikes require an impractical level of precision and timing, skilled martial artists are able to avoid getting hit with them. That makes sense since Batman's apparent wealth of unbeatable "technical knowledge" has only ever been displayed against brutes and thugs. Using them on Green Arrow is cool, but despite being a fair H2H combatant, Ollie Queen has never been known for his martial arts. And IIRC that fight was before Oliver's training with Natas, so he was a lot less skilled. I don't believe Batman's nerve attacks would be much of a factor against David, since he's a pretty skilled fighter himself with plenty of experience in avoiding and evading, as I'll show below.

especially coming from a man that not only has superior arsenal, better stealth and comparable physicals.

-.- Grrr

To say his martial-arts is a non factor is simply ridiculous, because it is one of the factors that enables to him to contend with stronger characters and super-humans.

I'd rather see him use pressure points on a trained fighter than a crazed nutjob with super strength.

Essentially, he has effectively utilized it in close-quarters combat. Snake does not have the skill to the point where he can utilize nerve-strikes so easily, nor is his arsenal as versatile as Batman's, his stealth is impressive but Batman has consistently used it against super-humans.

It's not that he doesn't have the skill to use pressure points, just that he never had the opportunity to learn them in the first place since CQC focused on other aspects of fighting, ones that Snake actually utilizes against trained combatants as well as brutes and fodder. Unarmed CQC utilizes a variety of holds, throws, and strikes to incapacitate an opponent as quickly as possible. When used by experts, CQC techniques can even field-strip opponents effortlessly; Snake's style revolves around disarming and gaining leverage, so those plethora of gadgets Bruce has (which he never uses against martial artists anyway, same with nerve strikes and stealth) won't be a threat for very long. In addition to that, David is host to a very wide range of grappling maneuvers, deftly choking and throwing opponents with the upmost ease, and a properly executed CQC slam can instantly knock out even the strongest of fighters. He doesn't know any fancy pressure points, but David has still shown the knowledge to discombobulate foes by attacking various bodily weak points such as the neck, eyes, groin, heart, and kidneys, all of which are much wider targets than a nerve, and proven by Snake's much more consistent utilization of them compared to Batman's pressure points. He's stated that his body simply reacts naturally when an opponent comes at him, so considering his abundance in Soldier Genes coupled with his vast experience, I would most definitely say that Solid Snake can adapt much more quickly than Batman can and makes far better use of his instincts, not to mention the superior combat reaction time he'd have.

In terms of arsenal and versatility, I totally disagree that Batman is better, since everything I just said only applies to unarmed CQC, with armed CQC being an entirely different beast. To say Solid Snake lacks technical knowledge compared to Batman just because of pressure points is nothing short of ignorant. (I don't mean this at you specifically Frozen, just everyone who's always said that)

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This is Big Boss explaining the basic concept behind CQC; whereas Batman can punch you in the face, Snake can punch you in the gut and shoot you in the face instead. Such an advantage can not be overlooked.

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After the Big Shell Incident, Snake began to suffer from highly accelerated aging as a result of his genetic programming. Despite his advanced age, Snake still shows the extent of this advanced combat system by first effortlessly incapacitating Johnny Sasaki in only 2 hits, and cleverly tricking him into losing focus. (now keep in mind despite his naivety and comic nature, Johnny actually turns out to be an incredibly talented soldier. The bit about him being a 10 year vet is true, and later in the game and and Meryl pretty much solo an entire contingent of FROG troopers) Afterwards, Snake takes on Big Mama's elite PLA soldiers and casually defeats them all. Keep in mind, at this stage in his rapid aging Snake is suffering from IIRC, arthritis, inflamed lungs, an enlarged heart, random seizures, and several other conditions that I can't recall off the top of my head. His senses are referenced as being extremely dulled, not to mention the obvious physical impairment, and according to Naomi Hunter's test results, Snake should already be dead by this point. Meanwhile, the soldiers he's fighting are highly trained and experienced elite rebel operatives, who are not only extremely skilled in their own right according to Otacon, but also physically enhanced by nanomachines. To defeat such opponents that outclass him so greatly, while in such a debilitating physical state, through nothing but knowledge and technique, is unbelievable.

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Old Snake puts all of his combat skills to the ultimate test against Liquid Ocelot in their final battle. He's old now so he isn't as quick as he used to be, but he still manages to counter, parry, and dodge the majority of Ocelot's strikes, impressive when the man despite his age can literally move his fists faster than bullets and left a massive imprint in plated steel. Snake displays both great fluidity and dexterity (2:25 very fancy footwork, 3:50 elbows Ocelot's punch which I find awesome, 10:40 sweet flips), and fantastic endurance, specifically at 2:35 where Ocelot slams him on the ground and delivers about two dozen haymakers straight across his face, yet fails to draw blood with the battle continuing on for probably a few hours since it's sunset by the time Ocelot dies.

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Solid Snake was much more agile in his prime (which is saying something), he matches the Cyborg Ninja Frank Jaeger move for move and actually manages to outpace him for the most part, evading each of his strikes with great skill. Impressive when Gray Fox is a supersonic combatant - not movement wise, I mean he can literally fight and react at supersonic speeds.

I'll go over Ocelot and Fox's skill after you've brought up a few of Batman's fights. Frank was basically Deathstroke while human but cooler, and Ocelot is a beast, so just keep that in mind. @frozen

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#26 Edited by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: The first quarter of your post is a biography/background on Solid Snake, which doesn't really need to be addressed.

Alright, so I'm noticing a bit of a misconstruance on your part almost immediately into the debate. Your points about Batman's martial arts and stealth are sound for the most part, but you're doing it from the perspective that Solid Snake is some brawny, generic super soldier with guns.

Not once did I state that Snake was a 'brawny, generic super soldier with guns' - nor did I imply it. I demonstrated Batman's strengths and actually acknowledged Snake's abilities, but nonetheless, Batman still has the advantage in the categories I listed.

I actually don't think that's very impressive. I mean sure it's a bit beyond normal human standards, but for a comic book peak human like Batman it's pretty tame. Even the heaviest tigers only weigh around 500 pounds, and straddling one and choking it would be a lot easier than lifting it. I know Batman has better.

I used the Tiger feat to demonstrate that it is still beyond any human capability and dismantle the assumption that ''Batman is only a human and therefore only achieves human feats'' - It was not intended to be one of his high end feats.

Snake's feats blow this instance out of the water, using his strength and technique to get Vamp in a grapple

The vampire feat is only impressive to some extent. Here, Batman defeats 2 vampires without too much trouble and even remarks that being a vampire means nothing to him.

From JLA #96:

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and in his prime briefly putting the Cyborg Ninja in a submission hold.

Batman in the New-52 has completely destroyed a giant high-tech robot soldier with a kick. Again, Batman has shown the capabilities to accomplish such feats:

From Batwing #23.

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Keep in mind, not only are both of these fighters literally hundreds of times stronger than a tiger, but also master-class martial artists who could not counter Solid Snake's techniques.

Are you sure that they are literally hundreds of times stronger than a Tiger?

So while I completely agree with you on the "Batman is peak human but that doesn't make him outclassed" thing, I believe that Snake's feats in addition to his genes are still superior.

In theory, his genes may be superior but Batman has fought opponents who are of superhuman capabilities (and have superhuman abilities) and still defeated them. This isn't solely due to Batman's physicals, but his martial-arts prowess. His martial-arts skill allows him to accomplish feats beyond human capability and defeat super-humans. For example, the scans I posted from Detective Comics Volume 2 #17 shows that he uses martial-arts to defeat a man who is impervious to pain. The difference physically between Snake and Batman is not enough to be a solid advantage for Snake.

Now that's what I'm talking about. Some real peak human striking feats, SUPER impressive. However, whereas Batman in his rookie years knocked down pillars and trees, Snake in his rookie years tore down a whole wall.

Yes, striking down a tree speaks as a strength-feat. However, the emphasis is also on his martial-arts prowess as I stated above. It's the perfect combination of strength, speed and skill which allowed him to do so. He was actually taught how to strike down trees while barefoot before he became Batman, by an unknown trainer.

From Gotham Knights #1 - Black and White:

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Snake knocking down walls is impressive. However, do keep in mind that while kicking down a pillar, Batman had been shot in the same leg that he used to kick down the pillar. It speaks for a pain-tolerance feat, prior to kicking down the pillar he had been shot in his leg and injured.

That's impressive, albeit a bit overblown. People need to remember that super speed doesn't give Jay Garrick intimate knowledge of where a stealth expert would be hiding. All Batman had to do was find one good spot that Jay wouldn't even think of, and then he'd be safe forever, no matter how much super speed Flash has.

The feat is not overblown at all. Let's put this into context: Batman, a street-leveler has disappeared from Jay Garrick, a power-house that has smacked Black Adam around, who has strategized with Wally West and Bart Allen in nanoseconds and can stretch time (e.g. hours into years). To discredit the feat is just undermining Batman's abilities. And the rest of your point doesn't make much sense. Batman did not hide, he left. Jay can see faster, think faster and react faster:

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So in this case, I believe Snake's showings against skilled opponents would be more impressive than Batman's showing against a fast character. I mean it's still super impressive quick thinking, but nothing outside of Solid Snake's comfort zone since he too is a stealth master.

This isn't exactly the point I was making by posting scans with Batman escaping super-humans. It's the sheer fact that his stealth is at such a level, that he is capable of escaping those who have super-human abilities/senses. It isn't PIS either, as he's consistently done so, it's a part of the Batman mythos. Snake is a stealth master, but has she shown the ability to escape the likes of Superman and Jay Garrick? How is it not out of his comfort zone? I don't recall Snake ever using his stealth with characters at such a level.

Two more very cool showings, but there's no indication that J'onn and Clark didn't notice Batman leave. I mean it's not like either of them were actively trying to stop him, they just stood there passively and let Bruce do whatever it is he wanted to do. So we do need to keep that in mind,

  • He disappeared from Clark as soon as he spoke a word. I've posted the Garrick feat where he tries to stop Batman. In the instance with Superman, he mereley says a word and in the next scan he is gone. The implication is that they did not notice him; this is only one of many instances
  • J'onn didn't notice Batman leave. That's why Batman waited for the lights to turn off

Though since you question the validity of his escape from Superman, I will post an instance from the New-52. Batman vanishes from Superman, and Superman even comments on it.

Batman: Volume 2 #20:

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it's also been revealed in other encounters that Batman uses tech to sneak up on the league in order to quiet himself

But he isn't sneaking up on them in the instances I posted. He's getting away from them. He has once used a device which lowered his heart-beat, but Superman should have heard it and didn't.

whereas Solid Snake can move with absolute silence by virtue of sheer skill

And Batman has disappeared with sheer skill. Has Snake ever actually used stealth against a being like Superman or Jay Garrick? The instances with Batman using technology to utilize stealth is rare.

He was taught stalking techniques by Big Boss that let him walk without making any noise at all, albeit very slowly, and the Metal Gear Solid 4 novelization describes him as using Native American tracking techniques to sneak by a group of guards in plain sight without being spotted. While tailing a member of the Paradise Lost Army (clip below) Old Snake is described as lowering his breath and heart beat to conceal his being, and literally becoming one with the city and surroundings, or something to that effect.

This is moreso a description of Snake's background in stealth, alebit the 'becoming one with the city and surroundings part'. In contrast, little is known about how Batman became a stealth-master, only that he was trained by the magician Zatara (father of Zatana):

JLA: Black Baptism #2:

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Now if Superman actually tried to grab Bruce, but he had already disappeared and then Clark was unable to locate him, THEN I would admit that Snake is at a severe disadvantage in the stealth department. However, considering all Batman did was leave the room, I'm inclined to say Solid Snake could do the same.

Your point on Superman doesn't make much sense either. The whole point is that Batman can escape Superman without Superman noticing. You can't just say Snake could do the same. I have posted several instances of Batman using his stealth against powerhouses without them noticing, one being unable to locate him (and he was a Flash). We can't just assume Snake can do the same. Batman HAS escaped from Superman while Superman was trying to catch him and Batman then re-appeared behind him, but this was from Man of Steel #3, Superman's origin had been later retconned but I'm not sure whether his meeting with Batman was. However, his meeting with Batman was still shown to be the Man of Steel meeting in Superman: Infinite Crisis for pre-52.

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However, just to prove that Batman can escape in the middle of a situation, he does so here to a vampire (sneak attacks AND disappears on a 600 year old vampire):

I, Vampire #5:

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Here's Snake easily sneaking around Shadow Moses and infiltrating the main complex while it's being guarded by Genome Soldiers. Pretty impressive since each of these men are enhanced with Solid Snake's own genes and have superhuman senses, yet not a single one would ever realize somebody was there. Call them canon fodder if you want, but I don't believe Batman has ever been able to slip past canon fodder this elite.

This feat I can acknowledge as impressive, but I still do not see how this is as impressive as escaping the likes of Jay Garrick or Superman, who are top-tier DC powerhouses with superhuman senses far beyond Snake, I acknowledge Snake's stealth skills but he has simply not shown the ability to escape such beings. Granted, Snake doesn't exist in a world with beings like Superman.

In JLA #1, Batman stays hidden in the watchtower for an hour without anyone detecting him (not even Superman). Granted, Batman had a device to block his heartbeat, however it shouldn't have affected Superman. Superman can hear people across entire cities with his super-hearing, and he should have heard Batman's movements and breath, yet he didn't.

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Here's Snake stealthing a squad of elite Spetsnaz soldiers. The second team moves in immediately after he kills the first, but somehow Snake managed to materialize outside the train car without being spotted, despite the soldiers being equipped with infrared goggles.

Impressive. Where is this from? However, he had time to escape when they specifically said ''Did we do all of this?'' - which implies shock. Regarding Batman, he has been able to disappear in front of people, without them turning around. More specifically, from Asrael. He did not even turn around, this is why it is impressive.

Asrael #27:

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Another instance of Snake seeming to teleport, the soldier sees him duck behind the rubble, when he looks behind said rubble Snake is in front of him.

Batman has shown a 'teleporting' effect against Forbes.

The Dark Knight Volume 2 #3:

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Old Snake was able to trail a Paradise Lost Army member all the way back to their hideout without being noticed, despite the entire city being deserted (therefore Snake wouldn't be able to blend with a crowd or anything and had to remain out of sight the entire time). When he arrives, Snake is clearly visible right behind the soldier before the camera pans, and as he looks behind him, Snake is already gone and moved behind him.

All Snake did was trail him. Batman has been able to do this with Superman. This is a lower-end feat for Snake. If anything, a deserted city helped Snake because it gave him more room/space to maneuver.

Similar to the above scene, Snake is clearly standing right in front of the Darpa Chief when a soldier pops up, the camera pans back and Snake has vanished. This scene comes from the somewhat-canon Twin Snakes, so I hope you'll be okay with me pulling the scene out since you're using Pre and New 52 feats

The Asrael vanish is more impressive. Because he was standing in front of Asrael, considering it was a comic there was no camera change. We did see a close up to Asrael's face, but he did not even turn around, nor did he barely even blink. You can use the twin snakes if you really want to.

Just a small taste of Solid Snake's stealth skills to start us off. So far we have:

  1. Sneaking past a large group of soldiers with enhanced senses, then remaking that it was "almost too easy"
  2. Using stealth to kill a group of elite Spetsnaz and going undetected by their infrared vision in a confined area
  3. Several instances of vanishing, showing great reflexes
  4. Sneaking up on Raiden and materializing from thin air

The first three points I have addressed and posted the issues/scans to show Batman has accomplished more impressive feats and utilized his stealth against more powerful opponents. Regarding the fourth point, I will get to that later on in my post.

Your stealth feats for Batman are all very very impressive. However, even if there skills are tied, or hell let me play devil's advocate and say Batman is actually more skilled at stealth, either way, Batman still can not sneak up on Solid Snake. His senses are very advanced, shown in the beginning of Metal Gear Solid 2 where he discerned the make of a helicopter just by the sound of it's rotor blades in the distance, through heavy rain and lightning.

Batman's skills are better. Snake does have enhanced senses, but so do all the people Batman has managed to escape and sneak up on. As for Superman, a man that can hear across entire cities has not been able to detect Batman, or even realize he left. Batman's stealth against Superman is credible, as he has used stealth against him numerous times.

Superman has even been capable of hearing Green Arrow from across the world. Far more impressive than hearing through rain and lightning:

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David had just lost several pints of blood after an encounter with Vamp, and could barely walk. He falls asleep yet snaps to attention instantly when Raiden aims his gun; impressive considering multiple CODEC calls ringing in his ear barely stirred him.

This is definitely one of Snake's better feats. However, Batman has shown something somewhat similar (though the circumstances differ as Batman is in the midst of combat), in The Dark Knight Volume 2 #7 he escaped from Bane (who is physically superior to his pre-52 version) right in front of Bane, despite being weakened.

I don't think Raiden is quite as stealthy as Batman, but he's still good enough to make fools out of Gurlukovich's mercenary force, one of the most dangerous groups on the planet who were shown early in the game to have attuned senses themselves, sneaking up on trained Marines and all. Raiden knows how to lower his presence, but Snake detected him while dead asleep and half-dead from blood loss, so Batman is going to have a tough time against David when he's actively searching for him.

How is he anywhere near as stealthy as Batman? Batman has snook into Ra's Al Ghul's lair, a member of the League of the Assassins (one of the most deadly organisations in DC), has made a fool of super-humans, disappeared in front of vampires, etc. I am not denying Raiden is imperssive in stealth, but nothing puts him anywhere near Batman's level. The comparison between Batman and Raiden doesn't make much sense either, when has Raiden shown half the stealth feats that I've posted for Batman? You yourself admitted that 'Batman may be better with stealth than Snake' but then go on to state 'I don't think Raiden is quite as stealthy as Batman', but then argue that because Raiden couldn't sneak up on Batman then Batman can't? I'm sorry, but I don't see the logic here.

If that still isn't enough for you, Snake's plethora of highly advanced gear is pretty much tailor made for making him un-stealthable. Starting with the Solid Eye, as far as I know, Bruce's suit doesn't hide his heat signature or heart rate, so he should be spotted almost instantly.

This logic only works in theory. Technically, Superman should have spotted Batman (regardless of Batman's device) yet still couldn't find him, technically he should be able to realize when Batman has disappeared, likewise for the vampires that Batman has evaded and Jay Garrick.

And he did hide his heart-beat with a device in JLA #1:

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Regarding lowering his temperature, in Batman: Streets of Gotham #20 he used a Co2 canister which lowered the temperature by 100 degrees.

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The Solid Eye has a variety of ways to detect Bruce, regardless of his stealth skill.

Meanwhile, despite his cowl, Batman can not detect Snake! Stealth skill aside, the OctoCamo suit automatically copies the pattern and texture of whatever it's pressed up against, making Snake virtually invisible to the naked eye. Not only that, but it also renders him undetectable to infrared, as shown during his brief skirmish with several Gekko early on in MGS4.

Batman can use the Co2 canisters to lower the temperature, considering he's been able to think strategically on several occasions (I can pull scans if you want?) but I've noticed a gap in your argument. You say the SpetNaz couldn't detect him despite having infa-red goggles but now say infa-red doesn't work?

More specifically, he has thermal vision in the New-52 (Batman Volume 2 #8):

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With the Solid Eye analyzing Batman's gear, he'll probably be aware that his opponent is carrying some incendiary weapon, and be prepared for it. I doubt that little flame will affect the Solid Eye very much, but regardless, it'll need to be switched to infrared mode first, and Batman has no way of knowing when that is.

Batman does not just carry batarangs, he carries a wide array of weapons. A fire batarang is not something that Batman would necessarily use just to distort his infa-red, it's a weapon which he would use normally. The problem with your argument is that it assumes Snake has a perfect counter to every one of Batman's attacks, which he doesn't.

Batarangs can affect Snake. He has destroyed Kryptonian worker drones with them, they are not the same ones used to create fire.

Superboy #16:

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Furthermore, Batman also has multi-wavelength vision:

Batman: The Dark Knight #1:

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How's that going to help?

It's assuming if they get that close.

So long as Snake has OctoCamo that won't help.

Addressed this.

Another gadget of Snake's that can possibly counter your distraction tactic is the Mk. II.

Flares can counter this.

Wonder Woman Volume 2 #165:

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If Snake finds a safe spot to bunker down, he can activate manuel control of the mini-Metal Gear and use it for scouting. It can turn completely invisible, so Bruce won't be spotting it, and it's equipped with a powerful stun rod that will definitely put the hurt on Batman if he's whacked with it.

He will not have the time to do so. Batman is the better fighter, he has the arsenal to keep Snake busy. There is no way Snake gets away from him. The problem with this argument is that it assumes Bruce won't do anything to stop Snake, he has the canisters I showed, but more importantly; despite Snake's octacam he has still ended up in fights.

Snake also has Chaff Grenades which will disable every electrical device on Batman's person, Stun Grenades, C4, and even a Rail Cannon to obliterate Batman, so he's pretty well stocked himself, I don't think Bruce has a gear advantage.

Granted, Bruce's electrical will be disabled. Snake's gear is militaristic, Batman's is more nonsenical; it exists in a world where he has to combat demons, robots, aliens, etc. For example, his batarangs can destroy Krpytonian drones, etc.

Batman's suit reverses stun gun charges. He has shown this ability, stun grenades won't work.

Batman Odyssey Volume 1 #6:

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Continuing with the stealth arguments, there is one final glaring flaw in your strategy, that being Batman NEVER uses stealth combatively. When faced against a skilled martial artist or street leveler, he almost always goes H2H with them. The most Bruce has ever done is get in a sneak attack before starting up the martial arts battle, but Snake on the other hand actively utilizes his stealth in battle, constantly.

Completely wrong. I don't know where you got the idea that Batman does not use stealth combatively, he has been able to surprise attack people many times. But an instance is where he escaped from Bane. Clearly he utilized it:

Considering Bane had enhanced stats too:

The Dark Knight volume 2 #7:

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Like I mentioned, the man is proficient with virtually every firearm in existence, but it's said numerous times that his greatest weapon is stealth. With it, Solid Snake is capable of easily dominating foes who would normally be far outside of his weight class. Take for example, Vulcan Raven.

Batman has been able to take on Deadshot, who is arguably superior with firearms. Likewise, I've stated this many times; Batman has fought people beyond his own capabilities.

Raven is a Shaman and a mystic. He holds a wealth of superhuman skills and abilities, including extrasensory perception and enhanced senses. On paper, he is a foe that Solid Snake should have no hope of defeating. His minigun holds a much greater rate of fire than pretty much any other firearm, and he wields it with super soldier skill. However all that said, David was not only capable of dodging his canon, something that Raven even compliments him on, but disappears during the assault and continues to sneak around Raven, somehow managing to hold an entire conversation with him while remaining undetected.

You can skip the chatter since it's just plot stuff with Snake sneaking around. At 9:10, after hearing what he needed to know, Snake skillfully plants a claymore in Raven's path, and while the giant is stunned, appears from nowhere to empty his clip at point blank for the finish.

If Batman fought Raven he'd probably just try a bunch of pressure points or something. Not fight tactically like Snake.

I'll reply to the martial arts part in a bit, I'm being pulled away from the computer right now unfortunately.

The scans I've posted against Bane disprove this. He utilized his stealth (and was weakened) to escape. Another problem I've noticed here is that you assume pressure points aren't tactical. We need to clear something up. Pressure points are tactical in the comics, they are used to bypass certain abilities. I've already posted scans from Detective Comics Volume 2 #17 which shows that he bypassed someone with super-durability.

Furthermore, you've made the generalization that Batman would only use pressure points, merely from an argument that I presented. Wrong. He is a smart tactician.

Superman/Batman #44 - he defeats Livewire, and does it tactically be using his surroundings. He is more tactical than Snake, and I will bring up his tactical skills later on:

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I will address your martial arts post later.

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#27 Edited by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Your post implies that Batman only uses pressure-points and martial-arts, which is incredibly wrong. Batman is one of the best strategists in the DC Universe. He can spontaneously outsmart his opponents, use the surrounds against them, psychologically toy with them, buy himself enough time to pull out a gadget, etc. To assume that Batman will only use martial-arts just because of what I pointed out originally, is ridiculous.

About Snake's close quarters skill, I know that Batman has studied many different styles of martial arts, but contrary to your claim about how useful that is, it's never actually made a difference. Bane, Deathstroke, and David Cain can all give Bruce a very hard time despite only having a few styles under their belt, It's all about using what you do know effectively, and when it comes to CQC, Solid Snake is the master. His father, Big Boss, invented the style and therefore knew every single possible technique the art had to offer, yet David was able to best him several times in his own style because he used those techniques more effectively. Same with Batman, even if Bruce does know more techniques, Snake still knows his own a lot more intimately.

This is wrong too. Firstly, to make things clear: Batman loses sometimes for a number of reasons:

  • He is severely physically outclassed
  • He is outsmarted (e.g. Knightfall, Bane systematically broke down Batman)
  • He faces a better martial-artist
  • Very rarely, the plot

David Cain is one of the best martial-artists in DC, it is only natural that Batman would struggle with him. He actually beat Cain in Batman #605:

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Cain is the father of Cassandra Cain and taught her the body reading ability; an ability that Snake has not shown. It's not just any ability, it's an ability that gives a massive boost on martial-arts ability. Batman himself stated it's importance, it's what makes Cassandra a better fighter than Bruce.

From Batgirl #7:

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Batman has actually beaten Bane after Knightfall, and the new-52 Bane is physically superior to his pre-52 Bane, so let's not assert that Batman loses all the time to these opponents. He beat him here:

Detective Comics #701:

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Regarding Deathstroke, I do not see the comparison to Solid Snake, besides maybe appearance. Deathstroke has been able to give the Teen Titans trouble. I am not denying that Snake is not a capable fighter, but your comparisons are wrong and misinformed:

nd even Bat-Family members like Nightwing and Catwoman who are roughly in Batman's league aren't stated to have knowledge on more than a handful of styles.

I don't know where you got the idea that Catwoman is in Batman's league. Batman would stomp Catwoman. She had a brief encounter with Bruce in Batman: Year One but it was only brief, he refernced she knew Karate and he then beat her. Nightwing has the agility advantage; but he is not in Bruce's league. Bruce would hold back against Nightwing more than he would Snake, as they had an emotional attachment. He adopted Dick from a young age. If you read Batman: Under the Hood you will see that severely held back against Jason throughout most of the book, until the end where he held back less and won.

Regarding Dick, Bruce definitely would hold back against him. They fought in Batman #600 and Bruce was clearly holding back, while Dick was going all out. However, Bruce broke his will psychologically. Bruce would not hold back against Snake, as he is perceiving a new thread. Regarding the fight, from Batman #600:

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Clearly the battle is an emotional one. Bruce holds back, but breaks Dick's will to fight.

One Mr. Bruce Lee summarized my point quite nicely,

Bruce lee was not a real fighter. But the quote summarizes to Batman.

This quote is a simple fact in real world martial arts, and considering the aforementioned characters being more than a match for Bruce Wayne, I'd assume it's true in comics too.

For a more literal sense, Batman has practiced a special kick that brings down trees and perfected the move:

Gotham Knights #1 - Black and White. Before he became Batman.

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Then perfects the technique in Year One, brings town a tree with the same specific practiced move, and later against a pillar with the same leg he'd been shot in.

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And against the pillar, with the same leg he'd been shot in.

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Bane specifically since he doesn't know ANY martial arts, and only uses an assortment of moves that he was just able to figure out on his own in prison. And before you bring up the whole "Bane only keeps up because he's stronger" argument, Batman is about ten times faster, more agile, has body armor, an assortment of weapons and gadgets, various skills besides just martial arts, and still barely defeats Bane. I'm not using this to lowball Batman, just saying that more martial arts =/= better fighter.

You're underestimating Bane's physical and mental capabilities. Bane's physical strength does help, no matter how much you want to try and say it doesn't; he has been able to rip people's body parts off. And Batman is not ''ten times faster than him'', because the mere fact that Bane has shown capable to combat such street levelers shows he isn't slow. IIRC, Batman himself said that Bane was faster than him. Batman does not always wear body-armor either, at times he wears a nylon bare suit, that's why when his suit rips we see his skin. Bane is arguably smarter; Knightfall showcased this, as he systematically broke Batman down and then beat him. Look at the scans I posted of Batman vs Bane, Batman does not solely rely on martial arts.

Pressure point showings are useless in comic books because the characters who use them never, ever actually use them against other martial artists. I'd rather see him use pressure points on a trained fighter than a crazed nutjob with super strength.

This is actually wrong. Batman has used such strikes against skilled martial artists, my scans against the man who was immune to pain was to demonstrate how he overcame such difficulties, but since you asked for it:

Batman #431, he takes on a Kirigi trained ninja and uses the lethal vibrating palm technique:

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Mimics Lady Shiva's deadly leopard blow to defeat one of Lady Shiva's most formidable ninja masters, who was sent to Bruce to help him retain his martial art skill after Bane broke his back. He modifies the move to not kill, but still wins.

Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #62

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If Batman could disable Snake as quickly as you imply, why didn't he just throw a few pokes at Deathstroke during any of their infamous fights instead of getting his butt kicked? The only logical answer I can come up with is that since pressure points and nerve strikes require an impractical level of precision and timing, skilled martial artists are able to avoid getting hit with them. That makes sense since Batman's apparent wealth of unbeatable "technical knowledge" has only ever been displayed against brutes and thugs. Using them on Green Arrow is cool, but despite being a fair H2H combatant, Ollie Queen has never been known for his martial arts. And IIRC that fight was before Oliver's training with Natas, so he was a lot less skilled. I don't believe Batman's nerve attacks would be much of a factor against David, since he's a pretty skilled fighter himself with plenty of experience in avoiding and evading, as I'll show below.

One big factor is because of the plot. Deathstroke is arguably smarter than Bruce too. For the battles-forums we're assuming that these characters will fight to the best of their ability within character, pressure points is something Batman can do. I'm not saying he'll do it straight away, but as the fight wears on he will use them. It has not been displayed against brutes and thugs, I've posted scans when he fights a ninja and one of Shiva's most formidable ninja masters. If Snake's stealth is so good then why doesn't he use it on every boss? I will have to re-read the Arrow issue. Batman can use his nerve-strikes, as the fight wears on. And he can fight tactically at the same time. He will do both.

The rest of your post is good. It details Snake's fighting styles, but now it's my turn: I'll go into Batman's fights (see the previous Bane fight I posted), and why I believe him to be superior. Obviously, Batman does not have a specifically set style.

It is said that he knows virtually every combat on Earth, take one or two (The Ultimate Guide to the Justice League of America):

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He fights King Snake (Bane's father), one of the best martial artists in the world and wins without too much trouble:

Batman #469:

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Fights Lady Shiva (one of the best fighters in DC, with few ahead of her in pure skill) and stalemates her:

Batman #427:

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Defeats Azrael.

Batman: Gotham Knights #5:

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Now let's see what Azrael can do...

He physically (and brutally) beats down two methumans who had previously beaten him before. He doesn't even use his skill, he just brutally beats them down with raw aggression. So we know what Azrael is physically capable of:

Azrael #90:

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From the same issue, lifts a car underwater:

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And do not forget what I said. Batman is extremely tactical and strategic. He is not just a master martial-artist, but incorporates his tactics into his fighting style and will use his surroundings. He fights strategically to gain the upper-hand on superior opponents.

For example, he beats Clayface by using the environment + his skill to outsmart Clayface and defeat him, creating an advantage.

Legends of The Dark Knight #201:

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I'll post this one again. He defeats Livewire by using his surroundings, he wraps one glove over the other which protects him from being seriously hurt by her electricity, then knocks her into water:

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Clearly we can see that Bruce does not just ''use pressure points and stuff'' but outsmarts his opponents. He has done so to Gorilla Grodd (who is extremely intelligent, not to mention stronger than Batman). He untangles himself without him noticing, knocks out his soldiers and uses his batarangs + groin attack (an attack which Batman also utilizes) to win. He's used his stealth, gadgets and martial arts/strength spontaneously.

JLA: Classified #3

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#28 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (21616 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh wow, didn't know you were so good Frozen. Keep up the nice work guys.

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#30 Edited by AllStarSuperman (42623 posts) - - Show Bio

tag me when finished

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#31 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

The first quarter of your post is a biography/background on Solid Snake, which doesn't really need to be addressed.

Background and training are important :P

Not once did I state that Snake was a 'brawny, generic super soldier with guns' - nor did I imply it. I demonstrated Batman's strengths and actually acknowledged Snake's abilities, but nonetheless, Batman still has the advantage in the categories I listed.

You're definitely favoring David's stats over his skills and intelligence, which is a big mistake on your part. Solid Snake is known for using his brain to overcome tough situations, not his brawn. Among peak humans he is still an exceptional physical specimen, but peak humans don't cut it in Metal Gear Solid's military world. The series is populated with mutants, telepaths, monsters, basically every variety of superhuman there is, yet Solid Snake still holds the title of the greatest soldier of the 21st century. I'm not even exaggerating when I say that Solid Snake has never ever fought a character who wasn't way more powerful than him, not in his entire history. Even the canon fodder is at least his equal, with the Genome Soldiers having his genes and Liquid's Outer Heaven mercenaries being enhanced by the Sons of The Patriots system granting enhanced physical abilities and perfect teamwork. Snake's opponents always have some sort of advantage over him, yet Snake is capable of instantly adapting to every situation thrown at him and always finds a way to win in the end, to the point where the Government has even dubbed him as the man who makes the impossible, possible.

Skill always trumps power in Metal Gear, that was the entire point of the first game with the theme of overcoming your genes.

Basically my point is that despite being physically superior to Batman, David never wins fights thanks to his strength. The reason he beats Batman is because of skill. Of course that's not saying strength and speed don't help out, which leads me too...

I used the Tiger feat to demonstrate that it is still beyond any human capability and dismantle the assumption that ''Batman is only a human and therefore only achieves human feats'' - It was not intended to be one of his high end feats.

He's still peak human, and choking out a tiger isn't impressive among peak humans, unfortunately. Snake was born a naturally superior human being with his abundance in "Soldier Genes", and while I agree that isn't a replacement for feats, it is something to keep in mind.

Your counter with the vampires doesn't really change anything. For one thing, I originally used the feat as a showing of strength for Snake, but in the scans you posted, Batman didn't show any strength at all, so I don't see the relevancy in the feat. You can try and pass it off as skill, but then Batman only won by using gadgets, so it's not very impressive either way, and I don't see him saying anything about vampires being nothing to him.

The second thing is, much like Snake, you definitely seem to have more than a few misconceptions about Vamp. He's not a vampire... he's just Vamp. Those monsters you showed Batman fighting don't prove anything because they're clearly unskilled, probably not very strong, and didn't strike me as geniuses. Vamp on the other hand is an actual character with feats of his own. His most defining ability is his virtual immortality, referring to a rifle bullet blowing out his brains as a "short nap," among other things. His martial arts skill is far beyond the title of master; Vamp makes other masters look like chumps, and his technical knowledge is probably greater than Batman and Snake's combined. He's shown knowledge on nerve strikes and various other bodily weak points and arteries, can read muscles just like Cassandra Cain, he even knows how to shadow bind people, among many other things. Vamp was capable of blitzing two bullet timers, soloed an entire contingent of armed Navy SEALS, and was skilled enough to stalemate and later defeat Cyborg Ninja Raiden.

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This is their first fight, it ends in a mutual stalemate (Vamp falls first but only because he knew the fight was over and was chill; Raiden hopped into Otacon's helicopter and immediately passed out)

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Their second fight. Vamp actually defeats Raiden while weakened with nullified healing factor. Admittedly Jack kills him in the end, but only by cheating.

These are feats against a 1,000 tonner who can literally outrace bullets. Remember when I said Vamp makes masters look like chumps? Well Raiden is that master. Notice how he deftly dodges and parries almost all of the Cyborgs attacks in their first fight.

Snake on the other hand challenged Vamp in close quarters combat and was capable of dodging and countering his best moves.

This was Big Shell era Snake using the far inferior CQB style. Once Snake adopted the CQC style later on, despite his old age he was skillful enough to defeat Vamp and inject him with nanomachine suppressants to nullify his healing factor, as I showed above.

But regardless of that, the real feat is how Snake beat Vamp, not just the fact that he did. Batman's disappearing feats are pretty great, but I have yet to see an instance of him using it in combat. The Bane instance doesn't count, it's the exact same thing as everything else; Batman running away. The fact that he can sneak away from Superman proves that he should be able to sneak up on Snake (playing devil's advocate, honestly senses aside I still believe Snake can detect Bruce through sheer instinct since he detected Raiden while fast asleep and half-dead from blood loss, but I digress), but unfortunately, that's just not Batman's style.

Snake on the other hand? This is the second instance I've shown of him using stealth in battle. Admittedly it's pretty rudimental... but still effective enough to completely surprise Vamp, a man who besides insane stealth skill of his own, also has senses acute enough to identify a man by his scent.

Batman in the New-52 has completely destroyed a giant high-tech robot soldier with a kick. Again, Batman has shown the capabilities to accomplish such feats:

That's impressive, but once again Snake can one up it.

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Solid Snake was able to take on the Cyborg Ninja in hand to hand combat and beat him through his exoskeleton. Much like the Vamp fight, this battle triples as a showing of strength, skill, and speed for Snake (skip to 6:20 for the cutscene)

First of all, Frank Jaeger is an inhumanly skilled fighter. As a child, he was described as killing literally dozens of armed soldiers all at once, with nothing but a single knife. As a teenager he was inducted into the "Perfect Soldier" program, which out of every test subject he would be the only one to survive.

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Frank was kept inside a special culture tank where his mind was routinely filtered to purge everything that didn't directly relate to combat techniques. As an adult, he would go on to become the only agent of FOXHOUND to ever earn the code name Fox (it's highest ranking), and is regarded as one of the top five fighters in the franchise. Beating him while human would be impressive, which is something that an exhausted and relatively inexperienced Solid Snake did. But as you can see above, he did it again while the guy had his cyborg enhancements; and those make a BIG difference!

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This is how fast he had become, and he also displays some technique.

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And he was strong enough to catch the 505 ton Metal Gear REX's leg effortlessly with one hand, even made a wisecrack about Snake not looking so good. At 2:40 he withstands said 505 ton robot crushing him against a wall, and at 4:05 he AGAIN survives being stomped on, with his suit still holding out.

Suffice to say the Cyborg Ninja was pretty powerful! But still, Snake adapted to his opponent. He read the Ninja's style and actually used it to deduce his identity, and was skillful enough to counter all of his 100+ ton strikes, then beat him through his exoskeleton to the point where Fox was on his knees panting and bleeding electricity.

Vamp is more arguable, but he could still parry strikes from 1,000 tonner Raiden so I consider him at least a 100 tonner, meaning Solid Snake has defeated two bullet-fast, master class martial artist 100 tonners, one of which was nigh immortal and the other could turn invisible... I don't think Batman's CQC feats can compare to that.

But anyway about strength, that robot is made of metal so the feat for Batman is pretty good, but the exact type of material matters a lot more than one might think. Now we don't know what exactly Fox's suit was made of (it might of been CNT, in which case YEESH, David might one-shot Batman) but we do know it could withstand over 500 tons of force. An even more impressive striking feat for David was against Liquid.

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Like I mentioned, Liquid is the superior clone between the two brothers, meaning all of Snake's durability feats (which include surviving hits from 100 tonners and getting kicked by giant robots) apply to him as well. More directly, Liquid was capable of surviving a 500 foot freefall fall inside of an exploding helicopter, the ensuing inferno of which rose all the way above the roof of the communications tower, and was later seen uninjured. He straight up tanked multiple stinger missiles hitting him in the face, and survived Metal Gear REX's explosion, which was powerful enough to send a full grown man spiraling tens of meters across a room, from inside it's cockpit.

All that said, Solid Snake beat him to the point of exhaustion. And keep in mind, Liquid is probably the second most skilled fighter in the franchise.

Snake's strikes are consistently within the multiple tons range, I don't think Batman can compete.

Snake knocking down walls is impressive. However, do keep in mind that while kicking down a pillar, Batman had been shot in the same leg that he used to kick down the pillar. It speaks for a pain-tolerance feat, prior to kicking down the pillar he had been shot in his leg and injured.

Snake tanked a sniper round through his shoulder and went on to battle an army and fight a giant nuclear robot.

As for the sneaking around Superman feats, yes they're super impressive, but I still don't think they prove anything compared to Solid Snake. The big thing is that Clark couldn't hear Bruce, but I already mentioned how the stalking technique Snake learned from Big Boss allows for absolutely silenced movements. Unfortunately there are no Superman-esque characters in Metal Gear, but if there were, yeah Snake would be sneaking up on them. Regardless, David still uses stealth in combat a lot more often than Batman. Here's another great example.

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Old Snake vs Crying Wolf. This B&B member's firepower was way to great for Snake to challenge head on, but using some clever tactics and by staying down wind, David was able to use stealth against a character who's senses rivaled that of a husky, all while maneuvering around a small army of elite FROG troopers.

About Raiden's stealth, yeah he is not as good as Batman, but my whole point was that he's still pretty skilled himself, so Snake detecting him while out cold is pretty amazing. And just to be clear,

You yourself admitted that'Batman may be better with stealth than Snake' but then go on to state 'I don't think Raiden is quite as stealthy as Batman'

I never said that. I was just playing devil's advocate, saying that even IF (emphasis on if) Batman is stealthier, Snake has the senses, instincts, and gear to counter that.

Batman did not hide, he left.

Well that just makes the Flash feat a lot less impressive. Jay was looking for Bruce in a building that he wasn't even in.

Regarding lowering his temperature, in Batman: Streets of Gotham #20 he used a Co2 canister which lowered the temperature by 100 degrees.

You're saying Batman's going to freeze himself solid to hide from Snake's radar?

but I've noticed a gap in your argument. You say the SpetNaz couldn't detect him despite having infa-red goggles but now say infa-red doesn't work?

I'm afraid I don't understand your argument.

The Spetsnaz were wearing infrared goggles yet failed to see Snake. That's a good stealth feat.

Snake's Solid Eye also has infrared, which should help him to spot Batman, unless Bruce throws a freeze grenade on himself, but that might not be the best idea.

More specifically, he has thermal vision in the New-52 (Batman Volume 2 #8):

Like I showed in my first post, OctoCamo is resistant to thermal and infrared.

Granted, Bruce's electrical will be disabled. Snake's gear is militaristic, Batman's is more nonsenical; it exists in a world where he has to combat demons, robots, aliens, etc.

Snake fights monsters and ghosts and his gear gets the job done just fine.

Batman's suit reverses stun gun charges. He has shown this ability, stun grenades won't work.

Stun grenades, as in the ones that explode into light and deafening sound. Not stun as in electricity.

Batman has been able to take on Deadshot, who is arguably superior with firearms.

Deadshot pulls his shots against Batman.

Alright that's all I have to say... to be honest, I saw @ancient_0f_days say in another thread so that you've already won this thread, and it kinda demotivated my debate completely, lol.

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#32 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (17141 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Edited by Superlightning123 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

You have your hands full nick

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#34 Edited by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Okay son, my turn.

You're definitely favoring David's stats over his skills and intelligence, which is a big mistake on your part. Solid Snake is known for using his brain to overcome tough situations, not his brawn. Among peak humans he is still an exceptional physical specimen, but peak humans don't cut it in Metal Gear Solid's military world. The series is populated with mutants, telepaths, monsters, basically every variety of superhuman there is, yet Solid Snake still holds the title of the greatest soldier of the 21st century. I'm not even exaggerating when I say that Solid Snake has never ever fought a character who wasn't way more powerful than him, not in his entire history. Even the canon fodder is at least his equal, with the Genome Soldiers having his genes and Liquid's Outer Heaven mercenaries being enhanced by the Sons of The Patriots system granting enhanced physical abilities and perfect teamwork. Snake's opponents always have some sort of advantage over him, yet Snake is capable of instantly adapting to every situation thrown at him and always finds a way to win in the end, to the point where the Government has even dubbed him as the man who makes the impossible, possible. Skill always trumps power in Metal Gear, that was the entire point of the first game with the theme of overcoming your genes.

Actually, I am not. In several instances I acknowledged Snake's skills, I did not favor his stats over his skill. Batman is primarily known for using brain over brawn, that is why he is one of the best strategists in DC. The Tower of Babel showed that Batman had files/plans on how to defeat nearly every member of the Justice League, and to his credit they worked (though obviously the plot kept them alive). Batman is an obsessed, tactical, skillful and dedicated crime-fighter - I did post many instances of his skill but also some of his strategy, which plays off against the super-humans he regularly comes up against. Batman is one of the top 5 martial-artists in DC, and commonly referred to as 'The World's Greatest Detective'. How many times have we seen Batman come up against super-humans in the JLA series? Many times. Yet I feel this post is another descriptive post. Also, the DC universe is full of super-humans that can move planets, magical beings that exceed the power of gods, etc. It is a few levels above Snake's universe. I feel you have been selective in your reply, but nonetheless, a good debate.

Basically my point is that despite being physically superior to Batman, David never wins fights thanks to his strength. The reason he beats Batman is because of skill. Of course that's not saying strength and speed don't help out, which leads me too...

The physicality is not enough to make a difference, Snake is not a better fighter than Batman. I've posted Batman's skill feats.

He's still peak human, and choking out a tiger isn't impressive among peak humans, unfortunately. Snake was born a naturally superior human being with his abundance in "Soldier Genes", and while I agree that isn't a replacement for feats, it is something to keep in mind.

He is peak-human by comic-book standards. I've posted the feats to prove he isn't really peak human. Since when do peak humans kick through trees, dodge bullets at point blank range and knock out super humans? The Tiger feat was specifically posted to prove that he is beyond capability. No ''peak'' human physically overpowers a Tiger.

Your counter with the vampires doesn't really change anything. For one thing, I originally used the feat as a showing of strength for Snake, but in the scans you posted, Batman didn't show any strength at all, so I don't see the relevancy in the feat. You can try and pass it off as skill, but then Batman only won by using gadgets, so it's not very impressive either way, and I don't see him saying anything about vampires being nothing to him.

He showed strength and skill. Vampires are physically superior to Batman, but he dispatched of them easily. He remarked that the Vampires do not phase him. It required strength to accomplish what he did.

The second thing is, much like Snake, you definitely seem to have more than a few misconceptions about Vamp. He's not a vampire... he's just Vamp. Those monsters you showed Batman fighting don't prove anything because they're clearly unskilled, probably not very strong, and didn't strike me as geniuses. Vamp on the other hand is an actual character with feats of his own. His most defining ability is his virtual immortality, referring to a rifle bullet blowing out his brains as a "short nap," among other things. His martial arts skill is far beyond the title of master; Vamp makes other masters look like chumps, and his technical knowledge is probably greater than Batman and Snake's combined. He's shown knowledge on nerve strikes and various other bodily weak points and arteries, can read muscles just like Cassandra Cain, he even knows how to shadow bind people, among many other things. Vamp was capable of blitzing two bullet timers, soloed an entire contingent of armed Navy SEALS, and was skilled enough to stalemate and later defeat Cyborg Ninja Raiden.

You should have clarified. The monsters were physically superior to Batman, actually - yet he still dispatched of them. That is a credible feat no matter how much you want to discredit them. Cassandra Cain's body-reading is of a very high-level and she almost always utilizes it. The rest of your post I feel is describing Snake's abilities, which is fair - so I will do the same for Batman by using his higher-end feats.

The rest of your post describing Snake as a multiple tonner simply does not add up. There have been instances where Snake has struggled at times when he shouldn't have. I feel that some of your examples with Snake are very high end showings that are definitely not entirely consistent to his character, simply put. Batman has higher level opponents and held his own, however if we are going to resort to high-end showings; Batman has had his fair share, most notably against Karate Kid (who he should not stand a chance against, but yet again, it is a high-end showing, much higher than Snake's).

He holds his own against Karate Kid in Brave and The Bold #5:

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Now let's see what Karate Kid can do...

Firstly, note that Karate Kid isn't a superhuman technically (though his feats put him there), his superhuman feats come from his mastery of martial-arts (he knows every single martial art form in the galaxy). Secondly, technically pre-crisis Karate Kid and post-crisis Karate Kid are the same person.

Shatter a mountain that is 70-80,000 tons.

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Kicks apart a meteorite:

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Punches through a super-human alien (that was strong enough to put a crater in the ground_ and the arm he used to do so was broken.

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Stops an Earthquake with a kick.

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Effortlessly dodges Mon-El's (a Daxamite) heat-vision.

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Oh, and he has also significantly damaged Equus easily and Equus has taken punches from Superman. And knocked Micro-Lad out of a building, who weighs 100 tons and was 60ft tall.

Batman's disappearing feats are pretty great, but I have yet to see an instance of him using it in combat. The Bane instance doesn't count, it's the exact same thing as everything else; Batman running away. The fact that he can sneak away from Superman proves that he should be able to sneak up on Snake (playing devil's advocate, honestly senses aside I still believe Snake can detect Bruce through sheer instinct since he detected Raiden while fast asleep , but I digress), but unfortunately, that's just not Batman's style.

Firstly, the Bane instance does count because he was able to think tactically and escape (from an enhanced Bane), and I showed a scan of Batman sneak-attacking a vampire in I, Vampire #5. You missed my point entirely; my argument was that he can escape Snake during battle and re-appear, as he has shown better escape feats than him. Batman has surprise attacked people in combat, though some of the instances are against people like Starman which I shall not use.

And contrary to your claim, he has snuck up on Superman in Action Comics Volume 2 #12:

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and half-dead from blood loss

I want to address this. Batman actually bleeds slower as he has taught himself how to do so:

Detective Comics #776:

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As for the sneaking around Superman feats, yes they're super impressive, but I still don't think they prove anything compared to Solid Snake. The big thing is that Clark couldn't hear Bruce, but I already mentioned how the stalking technique Snake learned from Big Boss allows for absolutely silenced movements. Unfortunately there are no Superman-esque characters in Metal Gear, but if there were, yeah Snake would be sneaking up on them. Regardless, David still uses stealth in combat a lot more often than Batman. Here's another great example.

Yes, they are. I also posted the instance of Batman sneaking up on Superman. You also misunderstood the scan: Superman should have been able to hear Batman regardless of the device, it was the extra-stealth that Batman utilized which made it so. We can't really say Snake would be sneaking up on Batman, that's just an assumption.

About Raiden's stealth, yeah he is not as good as Batman, but my whole point was that he's still pretty skilled himself, so Snake detecting him while out cold is pretty amazing. And just to be clear,

I acknowledge that Raiden has good stealth but it just can't compete with Batman's. Still, a good feat nonetheless.

I never said that. I was just playing devil's advocate, saying that even IF (emphasis on if) Batman is stealthier, Snake has the senses, instincts, and gear to counter that.

I addressed the argument of Snake being good enough.

Well that just makes the Flash feat a lot less impressive. Jay was looking for Bruce in a building that he wasn't even in.

It was impressive because Batman left in an instant. So no, it is not any less impressive - he was scowering the city.

You're saying Batman's going to freeze himself solid to hide from Snake's radar?

No. You said that Batman does not have any gadgets that lower temperature but he does, given the setting you requested for the fight, the Co2 canister can be used to cover the environment (NOT himself). Thus distorting Snake's infa-red and making it less effective.

I'm afraid I don't understand your argument.

The Spetsnaz were wearing infrared goggles yet failed to see Snake. That's a good stealth feat.

But you said that Snake was undetectable to infa-red so how is evading soldiers with infa-red a good feat? What is the use of the soldiers infa-red if he is undetectable to them?

Snake's Solid Eye also has infrared, which should help him to spot Batman, unless Bruce throws a freeze grenade on himself, but that might not be the best idea.

The scans I posted show that he used it on the environment. It would lower the temperature making infa-red/thermal less effective, but Batman still has his multi-wavelength vision.

Like I showed in my first post, OctoCamo is resistant to thermal and infrared.

He also has multi-wavelength vision, hard to explain what it is but it doesn't just scan for heat - but also frequencies, X-Rays, etc.

Also, you just stated OcroCamo is resistant to infa-red but stated earlier that it's not to the soldiers?

Snake fights monsters and ghosts and his gear gets the job done just fine.

True. But Batman exists in a universe with Darkseid, Superman, Black Adam, etc.

Stun grenades, as in the ones that explode into light and deafening sound. Not stun as in electricity.

Batman used a flash bomb to temporarily blind Supergirl in Supergirl #5. He has similar technology.

Deadshot pulls his shots against Batman.

Outsiders Volume 3 #50:

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Alright that's all I have to say... to be honest, I saw @ancient_0f_days say in another thread so that you've already won this thread, and it kinda demotivated my debate completely, lol.

I don't think he said that, lol. But I'm done too - as I have another tournament to go to so let's leave this to votes. I've had a great debate thus far: you really owe it to yourself, you pulled a great argument!

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#35 Posted by CF12793 (3084 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by reaverlation (25536 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen gets my vote in a very close and excellent debate.Good jobs to both y'all

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#38 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

Very nice debate overall, but I'm giving my vote to @frozen. One of the best representations for Batman I've seen on here comprehensively laying out every aspect of his vast skill set, and how it'd help him. Spectacular job. I hope I can try set up a debate with you soon.

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#39 Posted by GhostRavage (14924 posts) - - Show Bio

Very nice @frozen... Very nice indeed. As Wolvie said, one of the best cases i've seen for Batman. Kudos mate.

@frozen ftw.

Earned my follow.

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#40 Posted by Fetts (6229 posts) - - Show Bio

Very entertaining debate. This would be a heck of a match. I'm giving this to @frozen as well though. @nickzambuto did good with what he had, and he did have a more sexy salesman pitch given his style of debating. But c'mon man, it's the freaking Batman!

In all seriousness though, Batman does have better feats than Solid Snake does and Frozen definitely proved it. Also, Nick did have some pretty good counters, but he also some pretty bad counters that annoyed me. The 505 ton leg thing for example was absurd (there is no way on God's green earth that leg weighed 12 humpback whales), and he also had some flat-out false statements about Batman. Frozen did an exceptional job correcting Nick and I'm glad he didn't miss the flaws in his argument. But Frozen did have a few flaws himself and Nick pointed them out likewise (Ex. Batman using the freezing capsule is unrealistic). I think overall Frozen did a better job countering though.

All in all, it was a great debate!

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#41 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (21616 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (17141 posts) - - Show Bio

6 - 0

Frozen is in the lead ...

I am not going to place my vote just yet though .....

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#43 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@fetts: Well it's not like I just pulled that number out of my behind, Metal Gear REX officially weighs 505 tons and some pounds.

@ancient_0f_days On the third page of this thread you said Frozen already proved why Batman beats Snake, and I'm not blaming you for my poor performance, but I'm just saying it really demotivated my arguments :P

@frozen Yes, you definitely won this one. I didn't do as good a job as I could have, I should definitely take a break from Solid Snake since I've officially warn him out. Maybe next time I can challenge you with a different character :) GG

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#44 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (17141 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@ancient_0f_days On the third page of this thread you said Frozen already proved why Batman beats Snake

False....

@ancient_0f_days said:
@cadencev2 said:

Solids Snake for round one. Super human stats and the best fighter via CQC. Second and third rounds are also Snake. Snakes feAts per comics and games which are all canon are way more impressive and consistent.

seems like a matter of opinion, I can easily argue otherwise on both points...but it's been done by Frozen already...

Where did I say Frozen won the debate or proved Batman beats Snake, if anything I'm stating that Frozen has argued otherwise whether Snake is the better fighter and has better feats? Your post is out of context...

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#45 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days said:
@cadencev2 said:

Solids Snake for round one. Super human stats and the best fighter via CQC. Second and third rounds are also Snake. Snakes feAts per comics and games which are all canon are way more impressive and consistent.

seems like a matter of opinion, I can easily argue otherwise on both points...but it's been done by Frozen already...

Where did I say Frozen won the debate or proved Batman beats Snake, if anything I'm stating that Frozen has argued otherwise whether Snake is the better fighter and has better feats? Your post is out of context...

Im not even sure what this post is? How old is this?

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#46 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days: Well, ok. Again I'm not trying to bad mouth you, if you didn't mean it that way I believe you. I was just explaining my unimpressive performance in this thread.

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#47 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (17141 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days said:

@ancient_0f_days said:
@cadencev2 said:

Solids Snake for round one. Super human stats and the best fighter via CQC. Second and third rounds are also Snake. Snakes feAts per comics and games which are all canon are way more impressive and consistent.

seems like a matter of opinion, I can easily argue otherwise on both points...but it's been done by Frozen already...

Where did I say Frozen won the debate or proved Batman beats Snake, if anything I'm stating that Frozen has argued otherwise whether Snake is the better fighter and has better feats? Your post is out of context...

Im not even sure what this post is? How old is this?

Don't worry about it, NickZ thinks I demotivated him and that's why he thinks he's lost here. He thinks I said Frozen already proved why Batman beats Snake...but he misread or misinterpreted my post.....also, the post I sent to you is about 5 days old

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#48 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (17141 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days: Well, ok. Again I'm not trying to bad mouth you, if you didn't mean it that way I believe you. I was just explaining my unimpressive performance in this thread.

My post has anything to do with your performance, honestly...the main part of my post to CadenceV2 was "Matter of opinion" and "argue otherwise" ..... Frozen has made it a point in this thread that he thinks Batman is more skilled and has more impressive feats....but like I said, it's a matter of opinion. You must have missed that. In any case...my post had nothing to do with this and even if it did, that's a poor reason to lose motivation.

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#49 Posted by mikep12 (4266 posts) - - Show Bio

Frozen 5.5/10 great debate

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#50 Posted by MonsterStomp (36557 posts) - - Show Bio

Great debate. Voting for @frozen though.