Gggggrrrreetings and salutations! Welcome, Viners! To the best showdown CaV has to offer you this week! Today, three champions of their respective universes will go head to head, an epic, three-way battle of the ages! So stay tuned, for today's episode of Challenge a Viner!
In one corner! He is the world's greatest detective! He is the man who saves Gotham City on a regular basis, and the entire world on occasion. The master of virtually all forms of combat, the vigilante who has reached the pinnacle of human physique, the man who always pulls through, give it up! Ffffffooooorrrrr
Batman!!!
In the second corner, he is the prime gladiator of the Syndicate! He is the man who's hardly ever been defeated on any of his missions. With a shocking Contractor power set, a fantastic expertise in hand-to-hand combat, and the wits of someone who means business, this legend is ready for anything! Let out a roar, for
Hei!!!
And last but not least! He became the youngest State Alchemist ever recorded in history! His strong will and fighting spirit has combated against some of the most lethal villains! He's got applause-worthy skills, he can punch you with the ground beneath your feet, and he will demolish you if you call him shorty, give out some loud cheers! For
Edward Elric!!!
Rules
-Batman and Hei are in character. Edward Elric has morals off.
-No prep. This is a random encounter.
-Basic knowledge for all combatants.
-Standard equipment for all combatants.
-Victory is achieved by Death, KO, or BFR, pending on the combatant's morals.
Location
Chicago
Combatants begin 500 yards away from each other. Each combatant knows the relative location of the others. The area is lightly populated at this hour, but there are pedestrians. All features to the city are accessible to the combatants (cars, rooftops, interiors of buildings, sewers, train transit, etc.) .
Also, I think we should have a posting order however, to keep things organized. We can all take turns and repeat the order until we all decide to vote. Perhaps we can all start with introductions too. I'm only half-familiar with Hei and Edward Elric so it'd help me out to get acquainted with them so I don't have to do the research myself.
Also, I think we should have a posting order however, to keep things organized. We can all take turns and repeat the order until we all decide to vote. Perhaps we can all start with introductions too. I'm only half-familiar with Hei and Edward Elric so it'd help me out to get acquainted with them so I don't have to do the research myself.
Does anyone want to start?
I don't want to go first so can you do it @joewell?
@primez0ne: @fetts: Great set up! I can make an intro, but I'm on my phone and probably will be for the next couple days. I'll do my post, but it'll have links instead of embedded videos and look pretty bad. It'll hopefully be up later today.
@fetts: @primez0ne: By the way, I'm using composite Ed, so I'll be pulling feats from both animes and the manga.
Edward Elric <Link to wiki incase you want to gather info on your own http://fma.wikia.com/wiki/Edward_Elric>, The Fullmetal Alchemist, is a young and powerful State Alchemist from Amestris. He is known for his two Automail ( Basicly robotic ) limbs and his ability to preform Alchemy without the use of a transmitation circle. Both of those things were caused by the human transmutation he and his brother tried to preform on their mother when they were kids, which failed and caused him to lose his arm and leg, but also see the Gate of Truth, allowing him to transmute without a circle.
Even without his Alchemy, Ed is a deadly opponent. He is fast enough to block bullets, strong enough to throw around large Chimera, and durable enough to take point blank explosions and take hits from people strong enough to crush stone. He's also a great hand to hand combatant who is able to best most from his universe in combat.
With his Alchemy however, Ed because much much more powerful. He can transmute almost and material and bend it to his will, making it take whatever shape he desires. This allows him to make walls, spikes, hands, etc. out of the ground around him. He also can use Destruction Alchemy, which allows the user to deconstruct what ever they touch. Ed typically doesn't use this in combat, because of morals, luckily that won't be a problem here.
Now, I'm going to be a little lazy here. I'm going to post a previous CaV I used Edward in. I only ask that you read the first couple post of mine. ( Post 5, 22, and 39 and only the parts with scans/videos. You don't have to read the parts specific to that debate ) I'm doing this to save me some time and get this post out so we can start up the actual debate.
Along with those, I have a few more scene's to show off Ed.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=raP_UU5qqww
Watch from 3:20 to 4:45. In that scene Ed chases down a thief that stole his watch. Not only does he show some impressive alchemy feats, but he dodges a sneak attack the woman's leg cannon.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vJYR1Ks3ARc
Watch from 2:20 to 3:30. I'm not sure what's up with the lighting in that video, but I just posted it to show Ed's resistants to shock. When the alchemist he was fighting shot a lighting bolt at him he tanked it with little difficultly. And those bolts have been shown to instantly kill normal people. So Hei won't have too much of an advantage with his electricity.
Lastly I have this video http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JMoz923AZJw
Watch the entire video. Here Edward beats Lan Fan, a Xingess bodyguard. I posted this fight to show Edward close combat skills and speed in alchemy. Near the end that body guard throws a bomb at him, but he is so quick he can set up a trap with alchemy and get out of harms way before the bomb even goes off. That's pretty fast if you ask me.
That should show a good amount of feats for Ed, proving that he is easily able to keep up with both Hei and Bruce both.
And that's pretty much it for my opener. I know it's short and I pretty much cheated by posting my former CaV, so sorry about that. I just really hate doing openers, once we get to the actual debate I promise I'll be 100% original :P
@fetts: @joewell: This will be a quick intro for Hei. I will counter when Fetts makes his post.
Hei
Hei has the power to discharge electricity which he obtained from his sister in the during the Heaven's War but is just peak human. Hei is such a skilled killer/fighter he has killed several super humans and even earned the name of the Black Reaper before getting his powers. His standard equipment is a wire used to grapple around the battlefield and two double edged knives.
Here are some feats for his electrical discharges.
Just an exampleknocks out two full grown men with just a touchUses it through wireAOE Discharge (rarely does this though)
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Knocks out 3 soldiers instantly
Note on several occasions he only needed a tap to take someone out.
Speed:
Dodges shotgun bullets several timesDodges a kick capable of producing a sonic boomDodges fast moving projectiles
Equipment:
Bulletproof coatuse of wire like grappling hook
Throughout this debate I will showcase how Hei's speed, experience, and equipment will allow him to overcome. Then how Hei's ruthlessness and powers will allow him to beat Batman.
This is the most likely ending scernario for both Batman and Edward.
The man needs no introduction really, but you're getting one anyways! Bruce Wayne: Genius, billionaire playboy philanthropist by day, Gotham's very own Dark Knight by day. After witnessing the slaughter of his parents at a very young age, devotion, determination, and the seed of justice grew its roots to the core of his heart. Through intense years of training, Bruce Wayne transformed into the pinnacle of human perfection in terms of physique and mentality. He learned and mastered every form of combat known to man, and thus has became a martial arts powerhouse in the DC Universe. And under his leadership, Wayne Enterprises has become one of the richest companies in the world, contributing resources and inventing new technologies; some of which would be used to help him on his crusade.
All in all, his unshakable strive to become something more than just a man was unparalleled. The man, or should I say legend, takes on threats of every color on a regular basis. Be it highly armed mercenaries, immensely skilled assassins, genius-level intellectual masterminds, mechanical robots, mythical gods, or something just flat-out of this world, Batman is the one man who doesn't need powers to take the baddies down.
vs Edward Elric
Edward is clearly a talented alchemist and is arguably the biggest threat between himself and Hei. The ability to manipulate the ground underneath your very feet is indeed a formidable advantage. But this is hardly Batman's first experience with superhumans. In fact, Batman's experience with superhumans is a distinct advantage that he possesses over somebody so young in comparison. Yes, Edward has some flashy terrakinesis. But Batman has several edges over Edward that will be the deciding factor.
Stealth
Stealth is easily in Batman's favor in this battle. Having infiltrated facilities with immensely high-end security systems, evaded or snuck up on metahumans with highly sensitive senses, as well as inventing the infamous "disappearing trick" that so many forms of media have incorporated into so many action protagonists, Batman's stealth ability arguably has no equal.
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Infiltrates LexCorp
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Evades or sneaks up on the likes of Superman and Martian Manhunter
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Disappears into thin air right in front of people, some of which are superhuman.
Point is, Batman consistently pulls off some of the the craziest and most unnatural stealth feats known to fiction. It's very doubtful that Edward has detection methods superior to those of Superman or Martian Manhunter. With these feats in mind, it's very clear that Batman has what it takes to get the drop on Edward.
Gear
Gear is something Edward is also vastly outclassed in. Batman arguably has the most convenient arsenal in the world of street-levelers. With it, Batman would be able to locate and incapacitate Edward.
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Thermal and multi-wavelength sensors.
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Liquid nitrogen capsules
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HypersonicsMagnetic batarangs. Perfect for metal limbs right?
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Explosives
If stealth failed for some unlikely reason, any of these gadgets could keep Edward on his toes until Bats can get up close and personal to take him down.
Agility
It's arguable that Batman has the agility factor over Edward. Albeit that Batman would probably just keep things simple and utilize stealth, Batman could most likely fair pretty well in a direct confrontation. It'd be by no means an easy task, but I believe Bats has the agility to take on Edward's terrakinesis.
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Conclusion
Edward Elric has no counter for Batman's stupendous stealth. An ambush and a quick knockout strike should be all that's needed to take him down. Even in the event that Batman's stealth doesn't work, between his gadgets, agility, and tactics (which I'll get more into next time), Batman should be able to avoid and destroy any rock constructs that get in his way, and he should be able to keep Edward himself on his toes as well. From there, all Batman needs to do is to close the gap and defeat Edward through his superior combat skill.
vs Hei
Hei is a very different type of threat. Minor electricity and molecular manipulation, coupled with a healthy amount of skill and agility makes him quite the dangerous adversary. Every single factor that Batman needs to take down Edward Elric isn't really needed for Hei, through all could be used if Batman chose to use them. Instead of stealth, gear, and some acrobatic action, however, I think Batman would probably use a more direct approach and engage in a close combat duel.
Martial Arts
I'm very positive that Batman can incapacitate or KO Hei in this instance. Hei, skilled as he is, simply isn't as adept or fluent as Bruce is when it comes to martial arts. After all, Bruce hasmasteredall 127 martial arts in the DCU. I don't believe Hei has mastered even a fifth of the amount martial arts Bruce has. Bruce literally has every single base covered in martial arts.
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Proof that Batman has perfected them all.
In fact, he's so masterful that he's combined different forms to create his own unique one.
"The grim purpose that burned inside him was growing, demanding direction, seeking release. He looked further, to the East. He learned karate from an ascended master in the Paektu-San mountains of Korea--Savate from a convicted killer living as a beach bum on an island off Borneo. Six months in a japanese hermitage taught him the value of Judo and Ju-jitsu. From a chinese woman so old she should have been dead, he learned the secrets of the Tao, that nothing is fixed, everything is fluid, everything is energy. He mastered a dozen disciplines, experimented with them and fused them into something that was uniquely his own. In Africa he learned how to read the environment for the signs man's passage leaves--how to find and follow a trail to which ordinary men were blind...The ninjas taught him their secrets--how to use the shadows, how to employ psychology to win the battle before it's even fought--the precautions to take when you make yourself a target--and how to use fear."
- Shadow of the Bat #0
His martial arts ability is so monumental that he's even capable of this:
This kind of hand-to-hand combat ability is simply unfathomable. Personally, I think with feats like these that Batman is proven to be the best martial artist in any comic book universe. I don't there's anything Hei can do in terms of hand-to-hand combat (apart from electricity manipulation) that Batman can't do five times better.
With this ability, Batman can utilize techniques such as nerve strikes and pressure points to take Hei out for the count.
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As Nightwing says,
Or of course, Batman could always punch him too. That would work.
Speed
There really isn't anything that Hei has done Batman hasn't accomplished when it comes to speed. Batman's very easily a Grade-A bullet-timer and has reacted to superhumanly fast blows.
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Dodges bulletsDodges a Superman punch
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Some extra goodies
Resistance to Electricity
According to Batman #609/Batman: Ultimate Guide, his entire costume is wired to potentially use 200,000 volts of electricity as a defense mechanism when he's unconscious or unable to defend himself. Furthermore, he can even reverse electrical charges back to his attacker.
So that demise you had planned for Batman? Not gonna work.
Conclusion
Not too much to say here. Batman plainly outclasses Hei in every sense. His martial arts skill is hugely superior to that of Hei's. Hei has not perfected as nearly as many martial arts as Batman has, and Batman's speed has proven to be better as well. Hei won't be able to contend in close combat with Bruce, and his electricity manipulation won't be his saving grace either. Not only could Bruce simply avoid Hei getting his hands on him, but his suit nullifies any advantage his electricity manipulation gives him. Bruce's own suit can discharge 200,000 volts of electricity, thus meaning his suit also has to have electrical resistance so his own body won't burn up. And I don't know if Hei's skin is resistant to his own electrical charges; but if not, he's in trouble.
Ok. So first I'll go over how Ed would beat Hei, then Batman.
Hei
Honestly, I don't think Hei would be much of a problem. He's an acrobat with a little electricity, but so was Melvin, who Edward bested in combat, even though his opponent had a Philosopher's Stone.
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And he has straight up lightning, not even conducted through wire.
I just don't see Hei doing anything to Ed. He's fast enough to dodge or block the knife and if it comes to close combat, I'd go for Edward any day after watching his fights with Greed and Lan Fan. There's also destruction alchemy, so all it would take is a graze, and Hei would be missing an entire limb. I'm pretty sure Edward could tank a couple shots from Hei's electricity too, seeing that he took direct lightning from the Melvin and was pretty much unharmed, and that same lightning was frying men just like Hei's.
But in the end, Edward probably would't even have to fight Hei. It's more likely Batman would take him out before he even got to Edward, because it makes more sense for Bruce to take out the lesser threats first.
Batman
So you plan on taking out Edward with stealth, huh? That's not a terrible plan, but how do you plan on taking out Edward once you get close? Any traps Bruce employs could be disabled with a quick transmutation. The cryo-pellets and smoke could be blown away, explosives can be dodged ( see the Roy Mustang fight in the link, his explosions are faster and bigger but Ed has little problems with them ), and as for the magnetic batarang, Edward can simply change around the substance of his prosthetic limbs, making them carbon or some non magnetic metal. Close up, Edward may not by as good as an martial artist, but he's definitely good enough to land a couple hits, and a couple hit's is all he'd need considering a single tap would obliterate that entire area on Batman's body.
How I see the fight going
It'd be rather simply really. At the start of the fight Edward would take himself to high ground, so he's less exposed to a sneak attack. He'd wait up there, allowing Hei and Bruce to duke it out. Once the victor emerges, they'd come to Edward and be defeated. If Hei is the one who wins, then Ed can take him out pretty easily by dodging the blade and gutting/deconstructing him with alchemy. If it's Batman, then he could do the same thing, dodging his gadgets and one-shotting him. I just have trouble believing Bats or Hei could take on someone as skilled as Edward, while weakened from fighting one another, without taking even one punch.
@fetts: @joewell: First I'll start with how the fight is most likely to go.
Edward being the least likely to try the stealth approach and not being as good at it compared to either Hei or Batman would be the first one spotted. Batman would probably go for Edward and start the fight. My plan for Hei winning this fight would actually be to wait for an opportunity to swiftly take Batman out wile he is distracted then handle Edward. Even if he can't one shot him with a knife throw Hei can just use a wire to temporarily incapacitate him for a few seconds which is all a morals off Edward and Hei who is always willing to kill needs to take him down. With basic knowledge and seeing him fight Hei would recognize Batman as the most dangerous opponent(I admit that Hei cannot beat Batman in CQC). I can even show you two instances where he has used tactics similar to this
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In the above video Hei takes out April from behind after she had killed another contactor
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In this fight too Hei showcases his tactical skills when facing a contractor who he was facing for the first time. This contractor was a martial artist who could destroy anything that his blood touches. He uses this to trick Wei into thinking he had taken Hei out only to get surprise attacked from behind.
With Batman down Edward would be easier to take down. Both of the occasions @joewell you showed Edward "tanking" the electricity he was clearly hurt. In the first video he fell to his knees and in both his arm clearly stopped functioning. Also as I have shown Hei is capable of taking out full grown men with only taps and can use AoE blasts. With these and his tactical thinking advantage, gear (knives and wires) and superior experience facing superhumans (a lot of times while not knowing their powers) Edward should go down too.
So you plan on taking out Edward with stealth, huh? That's not a terrible plan, but how do you plan on taking out Edward once you get close? Any traps Bruce employs could be disabled with a quick transmutation. The cryo-pellets and smoke could be blown away, explosives can be dodged ( see the Roy Mustang fight in the link, his explosions are faster and bigger but Ed has little problems with them ), and as for the magnetic batarang, Edward can simply change around the substance of his prosthetic limbs, making them carbon or some non magnetic metal. Close up, Edward may not by as good as an martial artist, but he's definitely good enough to land a couple hits, and a couple hit's is all he'd need considering a single tap would obliterate that entire area on Batman's body.
I think you misunderstand my strategy. I was merely showing off Batman's various gadgets to prove that in the event there'd be a direct confrontation, he could fair well against Edward. But the goal isn't to engage Edward at all. It's to take him by surprise and take him down instantly. When I said Batman would use stealth, I meant that Batman would take Edward down through a typical stealth takedown: with his own hands. Batman has the means to instantly knock Edward unconscious via a nerve strike, and that's what he'll do here.
It'd be rather simply really. At the start of the fight Edward would take himself to high ground, so he's less exposed to a sneak attack. He'd wait up there, allowing Hei and Bruce to duke it out. Once the victor emerges, they'd come to Edward and be defeated. If Hei is the one who wins, then Ed can take him out pretty easily by dodging the blade and gutting/deconstructing him with alchemy. If it's Batman, then he could do the same thing, dodging his gadgets and one-shotting him. I just have trouble believing Bats or Hei could take on someone as skilled as Edward, while weakened from fighting one another, without taking even one punch.
Something you both fail to realize here is that Batman is the stealth master here. There's nobody here or arguably anywhere in the realm of fiction that beats his stealth. Neither Hei nor Edward has enhanced senses superior to those of Superman's or Martian Manhunter's. If there's anybody choosing the terms of the fight, it's Batman. A rooftop won't be Edward's saving grace. Something like this would be bound to happen:
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There's no real reason why Batman couldn't use his stealth skills on a rooftop, same as anywhere else.
In fact, to further the point of Batman being the one choosing the terms here, he's the only one in this battle who has any advanced means of detecting people. How is Edward and Hei supposed to find Bruce? Answer: They can't. This will be like a playground for Batman. Edward has zero means of detecting Batman, and Batman has more than one means of detecting Edward.
Edward being the least likely to try the stealth approach and not being as good at it compared to either Hei or Batman would be the first one spotted. Batman would probably go for Edward and start the fight. My plan for Hei winning this fight would actually be to wait for an opportunity to swiftly take Batman out wile he is distracted then handle Edward. Even if he can't one shot him with a knife throw Hei can just use a wire to temporarily incapacitate him for a few seconds which is all a morals off Edward and Hei who is always willing to kill needs to take him down. With basic knowledge and seeing him fight Hei would recognize Batman as the most dangerous opponent(I admit that Hei cannot beat Batman in CQC). I can even show you two instances where he has used tactics similar to this
A decent strategy, but it has several flaws. For one thing, Batman won't be "distracted" with Edward. Batman will take Edward out instantly with a nerve-strike-incorporated stealth takedown. Then Hei is all his. Hei won't be interrupting a fight because there literally won't be a fight between Edward and Batman. Just an instant takedown. Secondly, Batman is one of the best tacticians in the entire DCU. He'd be foolhardy to not check on Hei's status before he struck. If he saw Hei hiding away in the shadows, he'd take a different approach. And thirdly, going back to what I said earlier, Hei has no means of detecting Edward or Batman. The chances of him creeping around nearby at the same time Batman takes down Edward is highly unlikely, especially if Edward is taking to the rooftops.
How I See The Battle Happening
Edward will take to the rooftops, drowning in the animal rage he's in. Hei will make his way towards Edward, planning to let both Batman and Edward duke it out and then strike when an opportunity arises. Batman will also head to the rooftops (it's how he typically travels through the night anyways) and use multi-wavelength and thermal vision modes to locate Edward. Keep in mind that Batman also has the fastest means of getting to the rooftops with his grapnel gun. Once he's fairly close he'll scan the area like any good vigilante detective. From there, he'll use stealth to ambush Edward with a nerve strike to knock him out instantly. Then Batman will head towards Hei's way, using either or both of his vision modes to locate him. A fancy close quarters combat show will take place, and Batman will come out victorious due to his greater martial arts skill and the protection from electricity the Batsuit offers him. Batman wins.
@fetts: @primez0ne: After Fetts next turn do you guys wanna open it up for votes?
Even if he can't one shot him with a knife throw Hei can just use a wire to temporarily incapacitate him for a few seconds which is all a morals off Edward and Hei who is always willing to kill needs to take him down.
Why wouldn't Ed just cut the wire the second it gets on him? ( Though I'm pretty sure it wouldn't get around him in the first place considering his speed and reactions )
Both of the occasions @joewell you showed Edward "tanking" the electricity he was clearly hurt. In the first video he fell to his knees and in both his arm clearly stopped functioning. Also as I have shown Hei is capable of taking out full grown men with only taps and can use AoE blasts. With these and his tactical thinking advantage, gear (knives and wires) and superior experience facing superhumans (a lot of times while not knowing their powers) Edward should go down too.
He was hurt yes, but the point is he lived, while the same thing instantly killed grown men, just like Hei's shocks. All the tactics in the world can be used but if you simply can't beat your opponent then they won't matter. Knives and wires can be dodged or blocked with ease ( They move no where near as fast as the minigun bullet's Ed has blocked ), Edward could simply jump away from the AoE attacks or cause ground below Hei straight up dissapear. On the other hand Edward has many way's he could eliminate Hei, like destruction alchemy, dropping him in a pit, trapping him in a cage, or impaling him with a spike from behind while Hei is busy attacking him.
I think you misunderstand my strategy. I was merely showing off Batman's various gadgets to prove that in the event there'd be a direct confrontation, he could fair well against Edward. But the goal isn't to engage Edward at all. It's to take him by surprise and take him down instantly. When I said Batman would use stealth, I meant that Batman would take Edward down through a typical stealth takedown: with his own hands. Batman has the means to instantly knock Edward unconscious via a nerve strike, and that's what he'll do here.
But unlike most of those people, Edward will know Batman is coming after him. He'd be ready for an attack. It's not like Ed would just be standing there looking off into one direction waiting for Bats to come and incapacitate him, no, he'd be turning around, using alchemy to disrupt the ground so no one could hide there for long, etc.
There's no real reason why Batman couldn't use his stealth skills on a rooftop, same as anywhere else.
I said Ed would go to a rooftop because it's just a flat square surface. There's not really anywhere to hide other than the sides of the building, but Edward wouldn't be near the sides, he'd be in the middle of the rooftop awaiting Bruce's arrival.
How is Edward and Hei supposed to find Bruce?
Edward will simply wait for Batman to attack him. Like I said, he'll be in the middle of the building with knowledge the Bruce is coming, so there's not much opportunity for sneaking up on him and nerve striking him. There's no way Bats is clearing a 25-30 yard empty space and instant KOing a bullet timer who know's they're coming.
From there, he'll use stealth to ambush Edward with a nerve strike to knock him out instantly.
Again, this isn't going to happen to an aware Ed on an empty building top. Batman is going to crawl on the top of the building, sneak a little bit of the way over to the alchemist, then Ed will turn around and see Bats like anyone that knows a stealth master is coming for them would and engage and beat him with destruction alchemy, impalement from behind, alchemical traps, and so on and so forth.
@fetts: @joewell: I think we can all agree that Edward would be the first and easiest to be spotted. Also we can all agree that Batman because of his grappling hook would be the first to get to Edward in the fight. I won't debate for your characters but I think it would take more than a few seconds.
A decent strategy, but it has several flaws. For one thing, Batman won't be "distracted" with Edward. Batman will take Edward out instantly with a nerve-strike-incorporated stealth takedown. Then Hei is all his. Hei won't be interrupting a fight because there literally won't be a fight between Edward and Batman. Just an instant takedown. Secondly, Batman is one of the best tacticians in the entire DCU. He'd be foolhardy to not check on Hei's status before he struck. If he saw Hei hiding away in the shadows, he'd take a different approach. And thirdly, going back to what I said earlier, Hei has no means of detecting Edward or Batman. The chances of him creeping around nearby at the same time Batman takes down Edward is highly unlikely, especially if Edward is taking to the rooftops.
As stated in the OP Hei would know the approximate location of the others. He could head over to Edward's location to find him. Hei can use his wires as a grappling hook so he can easily get to the top of a building. Hei from on top of a building should be able to see Edward and Batman. While I agree he may be a great tactician. I doubt he would ignore a enemy that is a danger to him to search for another. Batman could just as easily decide to quickly take out one of his opponents first.
Why wouldn't Ed just cut the wire the second it gets on him? ( Though I'm pretty sure it wouldn't get around him in the first place considering his speed and reactions )
@joewell why would he? The wire is being aimed at Batman.
He was hurt yes, but the point is he lived, while the same thing instantly killed grown men, just like Hei's shocks. All the tactics in the world can be used but if you simply can't beat your opponent then they won't matter. Knives and wires can be dodged or blocked with ease ( They move no where near as fast as the minigun bullet's Ed has blocked ), Edward could simply jump away from the AoE attacks or cause ground below Hei straight up dissapear. On the other hand Edward has many way's he could eliminate Hei, like destruction alchemy, dropping him in a pit, trapping him in a cage, or impaling him with a spike from behind while Hei is busy attacking him.
Considering both times his arm was clearly disabled and he was also hurt does not show he can tank Hei's electricity. At the very least his arm would stop working which would decrease his battle efficiency slowing him down.
Hei can beat Edward. They are just about as fast, Hei is abit more skilled, and Hei can use knives + electricity to hurt Edward. It is not impossible for Hei to beat Edward. Hei knows about Edward's alchemy so it would be easy to just dodge out of the way. Hei's coat is also bullet proof so a spike impaling him from behind won't work. If Edward causes the ground under Hei to collapse Hei could just use his wires to slow his descent.
How is Edward supposed to dodge an electrical burst from point blank? Electricity is faster than bullets and he has little way of telling when it is going to happen.
But unlike most of those people, Edward will know Batman is coming after him. He'd be ready for an attack. It's not like Ed would just be standing there looking off into one direction waiting for Bats to come and incapacitate him, no, he'd be turning around, using alchemy to disrupt the ground so no one could hide there for long, etc.
I don't think you still quite understand the nature of Batman's stealth abilities (which is ironic seeing how unnatural they are). For one thing, whether Edward is looking for him or not is pretty irrelevant. Granted, there hasn't been many occasions where a particular person was looking for Batman and still couldn't locate him (as far as I'm aware), but there is this:
Superman and Martian Manhunter, both of which have enhanced senses far beyond what Edward has, both deliberately tried to spot Batman, yet couldn't.
Secondly, Batman's hometown is Gotham, which is very much like Chicago. Saying that Batman couldn't use his stealth abilities as a place so common as a rooftop is just a little silly.
Thirdly, I don't think there'd be a single rooftop that has zero cover. Surely there'd be a rooftop door that'd lead to lower levels, or air conditioner units, or ventilation pipes. The chances of Edward of finding a rooftop completely flat is highly low. Finding one that's nearby or before Batman gets to him is even lower.
But fourthly, and most importantly, you still treat Batman's stealth abilities as if it was a matter of cover. It's not. Batman's stealth abilities is probably one of the most mysterious things in all of comics. This is one of the many reasons why he's so intriguing and why he's such a fan-favorite. Nobody no how he does it. There's been no explanation or even an hint of how he does it. One would think Batman would have to superpowers pull such a feat, yet he has none. It's most certainly not PIS either. Batman has pulled tricks like these on a very consistent basis, and is very commonly accepted as a key bullet point in the Batman mythos.
While we have no solid idea how Batman does it, we do know how he doesn't do it.
If it was a matter of merely using cover, a man with the abilities such as Jay Garrick would have undoubtedly located Batman behind whatever nook or cranny he was hiding behind.
I said Ed would go to a rooftop because it's just a flat square surface. There's not really anywhere to hide other than the sides of the building, but Edward wouldn't be near the sides, he'd be in the middle of the rooftop awaiting Bruce's arrival.
Just addressed this.
Edward will simply wait for Batman to attack him. Like I said, he'll be in the middle of the building with knowledge the Bruce is coming, so there's not much opportunity for sneaking up on him and nerve striking him. There's no way Bats is clearing a 25-30 yard empty space and instant KOing a bullet timer who know's they're coming.
Addressed this too. As I've just shown with my last several several scans, he's done better than that. You're still thinking that Batman's stealth abilities as a typical, natural way of using stealth. Granted, Batman is very adept at using natural techniques of stealth. But he also has very unnatural stealth abilities that should be impossible, yet aren't.
I think we can all agree that Edward would be the first and easiest to be spotted. Also we can all agree that Batman because of his grappling hook would be the first to get to Edward in the fight. I won't debate for your characters but I think it would take more than a few seconds.
Oh I agree. Batman's not clearly 500 yards of rooftops in five seconds. But as you said, Batman's grapnel gun are faster than Hei's wires. I just don't you realize how much faster. Hei will have to exert himself physically to climb the towering buildings of Chicago. Batman's grapnel gun simply carries him up. It's WayneTech technology over a physique that possibly isn't even peak human in particular terms of strength. Batman's method of reaching the rooftops would be significantly faster, especially if Hei has to climb more than one building (which is likely). By the time Hei would have gotten to Edward's location, the "battle" would been have long over. The only thing Hei would be arriving to is a young, unconscious alchemist on a rooftop floor.
As stated in the OP Hei would know the approximate location of the others. He could head over to Edward's location to find him. Hei can use his wires as a grappling hook so he can easily get to the top of a building. Hei from on top of a building should be able to see Edward and Batman. While I agree he may be a great tactician. I doubt he would ignore a enemy that is a danger to him to search for another. Batman could just as easily decide to quickly take out one of his opponents first.
Again, you're not accounting for the significant amount of time it'd take for Hei to scale such large buildings like the ones in Chicago. By the time Hei has a vantage point, all he'd see is Edward lying on the rooftop. Though I'd even argue that wouldn't be enough. I mean come on. Hei being able to see Batman and Edward from 500+ yards away in the dead of night, with no enhanced vision of any kind, and with no source of light placed on the rooftop seems extremely unlikely.
why would he? The wire is being aimed at Batman
To be honest that'd really work very well. Batman's cowl is armored and thus quite durable. I don't think Hei could really exert enough force for Batman to feel strain on his neck.
And if Hei tried to electrify it, Batman's suit would just redirect it or just take it.
@primez0ne@joewell I don't really have anything else to say. Shall we start the votes?
For the most part, @fetts did have the best rebuttals and dissections of his opponents' posts in terms of battle tactics, in character strategies and more advantageous skills and resources to employ in combat. So I will give my vote to him.
However, as one of the Superman experts on here, I definitely call massive PIS on the times Batman has somehow miraculously disappeared from under Superman's nose. Considering that Superman can view the entire electromagnetic spectrum, spot invisible Intergang members and see everyone across the entire globe with his telescopic vision, I don't see how a mere mortal can avoid Superman's enhanced senses. And there is this scan from Camelot Falls where Superman states he can hear Batman's heartbeat when he pulls off his stealth tricks.
But outside of that flaw, most of his points were argued convincingly.
3 days later. LOL Sorry but I'm back at Uni so I really only have time to quickly lurk but not say anything with much weight but I have no class today so I'm able to type this out. I would firstly like to thank @primez0ne and @joewell for doing a very good job supporting Ed and Hei respectively. Both are great characters and with more feats they could beat Batman but the problem is, with their high end feats and similar/greater physical stats, Batman simply has more. @fetts showed them in a convincing manor while not skimping too far on context. I'd like to say I know all these characters fairly well and my bias actually leans towards Ed, he doesn't have the mentality to beat Batman which he could if he had it. He would more cases than not engage Batman in h2h where Batman is leagues above anyone Ed has ever fought. Hei only the other hand has the speed advantage IMO but his electricity is rendered somewhat useless, his strength isn't as high as Batman's based on feats and while he has a sufficient pain tolerance, it doesn't beat out Bruce's. Again Batman's h2h is just too high for Hei to compete and hold his own for an extended amount of time. He'd spend more time dodging than landing attacks. Batman has too much going for him (gear, his suit) and his quick thinking and deduction also makes it really tough for either to get a solid majority. Good job though guys. It was a fun read. I'd personally like to see more Hei used on here though. I didn't even know there was a Season 2.
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