CaV : Archangel (PayneInTheAss) vs Hippolyta (The_Badman) - [Open for votes]

RULES

• Win by : Death, KO or Incap
• 616 Archgangel / Pre52 Hippolyta
• In character but determined to win.
• Hippolyta has her sword, shield and bracelets as standard gear. Just no OP gear like Gauntlet of Atlas, Sandal of Hermes or Lasso of Truth.
• Archangel has Archangel/Dark Angel feats

LOCATION

• Starting distance 25 meters / 82 feet

@the_badman it´s on.

Any edits you suggest just tell me.

T4V.

@payneintheass: Nice. Shall I go first or do you want to?

@the_badman:

you can do the opening, no rush

T4v & best of lucks to both : )

@payneintheass: Cool. I'll get it up in a couple days.

@amberprice: Thanks mate.

@the_badman: np, bud ; )

T4V

t4v

T4V pls

Opener:

Hippolyta, Queen of the Amazons

Introduction:

Hippolyta's stats:

Strength:

Strength is not the biggest factor in this fight, as it will be mostly Warren's wings clashing against Hippolyta's sword, but its still important. Warren likes to throw objects at opponents or slam his opponents away with his wings, so Hippolyta would need strength to successfully block his wing attacks. Also, she woud need strength to increase the power of her sword attacks to successfully cut through his wings (her sword is sharp enough for this, as I'll show later) And Hippolyta outclasses Warren in strength by a huge margin.

First, let me show you how strong the average Amazon is.

Gallery

Scan 1: Wonder Woman vol. 2 #1- This is from the first contest when Diana was chosen as the Amazon's champion. As you can guess, out of the two Amazons pushing those metal balls, the one leading is Diana. But the other one is some random Amazon, not as strong as Diana (obviously), but far ahead of a regular human being.

Scan 2: Wonder Woman vol. 2 #59- Another average amazon, Pythia rips the metal grate of the hole with ease.

Now lets see how Hippolyta compares to the average amazon.

Wonder Woman: Our Worlds at War- She is said to have the strength of ten amazons. Its not just a statement, she has the feats to back it up.

All Star Comics 80 Page Giant #1- Here we see her ripping a huge part of the plane's engine, causing it to crash (she's also simultaneously bullet timing).

JLA #18- Here we see Hippolyta sending a supervillain flying in the air like a rocket by punching him, a good show of striking power.

These are very average feats, but I think are enough to establish the fact that Hippolyta exceeds Warren in brute strength by a comfortable margin.

Speed:

Hippolyta is a casual bullet timer like I showed already. On top of that, she carries a shield with her. So Warren's pinions fired from his wings are not tagging her anytime soon, unless you can prove they are faster than bullets.

Wonder Woman vol. 2 #185- As we can see, she moves very fast during a fight and can block the pinions easily in this manner.

Until you post speed feats for Warren, Hippolyta is the faster combatant as of now. Hippolyta's speed feats are good enough to keep up with the fastest of street levelers and I'll show this later if necessary. But as of now, these feats are good enough to fight Warren and avoid both his pinions and his wing swipes as well.

Durability:

I'll not focus a lot on this section, as Archangel is mostly going to attack her with wings and not blunt force. Hippolyta can definitely be cut with his wings, but as I showed in the speed section (and will show again in the skill section), she can dodge them fine. But still in the case Warren throws heavy objects at her like rocks, or somehow causes her to fall from a height, she has more than enough durability to no-sell it.

Gallery

All three scans: Wonder Woman vol. 2 #137- Here, Hippolyta has lost her memories, so Diana decides to remind her who she is in an interesting way. She punches Hippolyta out of the house and smashes a car on her. As we can see Hippolyta is completely unhurt by this attack (She also rips the car in half casually like paper, a neat feat of strength). Note that I'm not saying Hippolyta can tank serious hits from Wonder Woman, just that she can no sell being punched through walls or a car smashed on her.

I think these are enough to show Hippolyta is durable enough to tank whatever blunt force attack Warren throws at her.

Hippolyta's Gear:

Sword:

Her sword is the most used out of her gear, and the most important.

JSA Secret Files and Origins #1- Her sword is sharp enough to "cleave atoms".

Countdown to Final Crisis #12- Hippolyta cuts Granny Goodness' face with her sword.

Wonder Woman vol. 3 #33- Hippolyta decapitates a huge monster.

With Hippolyta's strength coupled with the sharpness of her sword, it can probably cut through Warren's wings.

Shield:

Hippolyta's shield would be very useful to her in this fight not only to block Archangel's pinions, but also slashing attacks from the wings themselves. I know the wings have cut through a lot of hard objects like stone etc.. But Hippolyta has blocked blows from the Nth metal mace of a pissed-off Hawkman, so there's no way his wing attacks would either go through the shield or even budge her, given her strength.

Wonder Woman vol. 2 #131- Hippolyta uses her shield to block hits from Hawkman (note that she also matched his mace with her sword). Particularly impressive because, Hawkman is a very aggressive fighter even normally. And here, Hawkman believes Hippolyta and old Jay Garrick have killed young Jay Garrick and Atom Smasher. So, he's probably going all out.

Bracelets of Submission:

She has deflected automatic gunfire with her bracelets, so she can use these to deflect Archangel's pinions, even though it probably won't to necessary as she has her shield.

Fighting Skills:

This is Hippolyta's biggest advantage in this fight, and will prove to be Warren's undoing. Hippolyta is probably the greatest and most skilled Amazon warrior of all time (except perhaps Artemis of Bana-Mighdall). She has fought and defeated opponents much more powerful than Archangel. I'll be starting with her most underwhelming feats.

Gallery

Scans 1 & 2 - Wonder Woman vol. 2 #131- The aforementioned clash with Hawkman ends in Hippolyta's victory in a rather short time. What's impressive in this fight is the manner in which Hippolyta KOs Hawkman and the bottom right panel of Scan 2. KOing Hawkman is a HUGE deal, as the guy is not only a great warrior himself, but a tank with insane durability. People far, far stronger than Hippolyta have failed to do so.

Here's another fight, but this time with Artemis of Bana-Mighdall. Before we get to that fight, let me show you how much of an impressive fighter Artemis is.

Artemis is the most skilled of the Amazons. She is a Bana Amazon, who unlike Amazons of Themyscira, have human stats. Artemis is possibly the greatest martial artist in present day DC Universe. Her feats are straight up ridiculous, approaching Karate Kid levels of Bullsh!t. She fights opponents way, way out of her tier despite her human stats. She has clashed (albeit briefly) with Devastation, an enemy who stomped Wonder Woman in their first encounter. She has also engaged Etrigan in combat, and defeated Wonder Woman herself when their stat difference was reduced somewhat due to some context. Fodder for her are demons of hell and parademons. I have scans for all of this, but I won't be posting them unless you ask as I feel this post is already too long. And this is Artemis' encounter with Hippolyta:

Gallery

Scans 1 & 2: Wonder Woman vol. 2 #169- Obviously, Artemis is trying to talk to Hippolyta while Hippolyta is angry. But that's not the important part. What matters is Artemis is wearing the Shim'Tar armor, which allowed a random Bana Amazon to go toe-to-toe with Wonder Woman, and Hippolyta herself to fight Lobo evenly. And here, Hippolyta hits her only twice in the fight, and has her injured and unable to get up.

These were among the most meh fights of Hippolyta, but clearly enough to outclass Warren by a ridiculous margin.

Strategy:

Conclusion:

• Hippolyta has a stat advantage in every category by a considerable margin.
• Hippolyta has enough skills to block Archangel's ranged attacks as well as bypass his wings.
• In close quarters, Warren simply has no chance of surviving.

Your turn, mate.

@payneintheass: Post is up, bro.

Good, I'll post in the next hours

BIO

A mutant and original member of the X-Men, Warren received his angelic wings at a young age along with a unique healing factor in his blood. After being twisted into a weapon of Apocalypse, Warren became the cold and distant Archangel. In the years since then, he's gone back and forth between his two identities.

Main Powers

• Techno-Organic Wings/Wings:
• Flight
• Aerial Adaptation:
• Superhuman Stamina:
• Superhuman Durability:
• Regenerative Healing Factor:

Now moving on.

Main factors Archangel has in him to win:

Better speed

Speed is the main advantage Warren has in this fight.

• He is as fast and can outpace the Blackbird (which can reach speeds around mach 4)

So this means he can outpace and dance around her. Evade her as long as she wants , if I am paying attention, Hippolyta doesn´t have the gear to fly in this fight.

Wings

As of now Hippolyta doesn´t have the durability feats to prove she could survive being slashed to pieces. Which is Warren favorite attack probably, slicing people like knife in butter.

His wings can cut up to Diamond, according to him.

But since Hippolyta´s shield can take hits from Nth Metal, I will assume the shield can´t be cut by Warren.

Need feats for the sword durability.

(Slicing people scan )

As for Lyta´s Gear

Archangel doesn´t need to destroy neither the sword nor the shield. He can cut her limbs.

I will stand for now that she wouldn´t have time to react. Not if Warren attacks from several directions.

You´ve shown me blocking bullets with the shield, but this cover a greater area.

I need feats of her blocking several bullets with the bracelets.

• Here we see Warren attacking faster than the eye can react.

This shows how clinical he is with his attacks.

The lethal combination of Warren´s speed + wings is the key for his victory.

Archangel counters to Hippolyta :

(Counters to Badman´s conclusion) :

Hippolyta has a stat advantage in every category by a considerable margin.

Not in any category that concerns Angel anyway.

• Is Hippolita stronger ? Yes, very most likely

Does it matter? I would say, not really to make a huge difference, as Archangel will stay out of range and dodge her.

• Her sword? Archangel can regen and whitstand stabs as well. And has reaction to evade a decap strike.
• What about durabilty? Yes, Lyta is most likely more durable to blunt force attacks, and while Warren is not outclassed, blunt force aren´t his main options.

Hippolyta has enough skills to block Archangel's ranged attacks as well as bypass his wings.

I don´t think her sword has shown the feats yet, bar the atom statement which I think is useless without feats to back it up.

In close quarters, Warren simply has no chance of surviving.

Not really relevant for my case. Warren doesn´t need to engage in a h2h fight.

And if he does, he have solid feats that show that he can react and survive. (Will back up)

So, to resume my first post and counters

• Archangel has the better overall speed., combined with flight. This matters because Hippolyta can´t fly with this gear.
• Archangel wings are fast, deadly and clinical, and Hippolyta doesn´t have as of now the feats to counter them.
• Archangel can very likely dish out or block Lyta´s main attacks in case she hits. Call them punches or sword strikes. (Will back up in next post)

@the_badman , my first post is up as well.

@payneintheass: That was fast.

Counter:

Counters to Payne's opener:

Angels's speed:

Speed is the main advantage Warren has in this fight.

Does he, now?

• He is as fast and can outpace the Blackbird (which can reach speeds around mach 4)

This is travel speed, mate. The kind not very useful in a fight. I showed combat/reaction speed for Hippolyta.

So this means he can outpace and dance around her.

Outpace her if its a race, sure. Dance around her in a ball, sure. I don't see any speed from Warren that helps him in a fight.

Evade her as long as she wants , if I am paying attention, Hippolyta doesn´t have the gear to fly in this fight.

True, Hippolyta does not have the gear to fly here. So if Warren goes up, he can evade her sword strikes. But its not Warren's nature to stay in the air throughout a fight and fire pinions at his opponent. Even assuming he does this (which is completely out of character for him), it won't gain him any advantage in this fight as I've shown Hippolyta to be capable of blocking his pinions. Eventually, he'll come down and this will become a close quarter fight.

Angel's wings:

As of now Hippolyta doesn´t have the durability feats to prove she could survive being slashed to pieces. Which is Warren favorite attack probably, slicing people like knife in butter.

His wings can cut up to Diamond, according to him.

True, Hippolyta can't stand up to his wing attacks. So assuming Archangel somehow gets past not only her shield but also skills and reflexes, he can cut her.

But since Hippolyta´s shield can take hits from Nth Metal, I will assume the shield can´t be cut by Warren.

Need feats for the sword durability.

The durability of both her sword and shield has been shown in my opener post in her fight with Hawkman.

Angel vs Hippolyta's gear:

Archangel doesn´t need to destroy neither the sword nor the shield. He can cut her limbs.

Yeah sure, if Hippolyta stands and lets him. Otherwise, he's not laying a hand (or rather, wing) on her. I've shown Hippolyta to be more skilled than Warren by a huge margin.

I will stand for now that she wouldn´t have time to react. Not if Warren attacks from several directions.

Wait, what? I've shown Hippolyta reacting to bullets, and you say she can't react to his wing attacks? That can be true only if you show that Archangel slashes with his wings faster than a bullet. And what do you mean "several directions"? Warren attacks people from several directions with his wings since when? I want scans.

You´ve shown me blocking bullets with the shield, but this cover a greater area.

What covers a greater area? His pinions? Prove it with scans. Even if they do, they're not as fast as bullets.

I need feats of her blocking several bullets with the bracelets.

You need only ask.

Gallery

Scan 1: All Star Comics 80 Page Giant #1- Hippolyta blocking automatic gunfire from the turret guns of an aircraft with her bracelets.

Scan 2: JSA vol. 1 #72- More bullet blocking.

• Here we see Warren attacking faster than the eye can react.

This shows how clinical he is with his attacks.

While its impressive speed, it has been performed on fodder who weren't even expecting him. Who knows how it would have gone if they knew he was coming.

The lethal combination of Warren´s speed + wings is the key for his victory.

So far, you have prrovided one feat of travel speed and one of decapitating unsuspecting fodder. Neither are nearly enough to put him on the same level as Hippolyta. You haven't shown any instance of Warren using his wings to beat an opponent nearly as skilled as her either. So this "lethal combination" isn't enough to even annoy her so far.

Payne's conclusion:

• Is Hippolita stronger ? Yes, very most likely

Does it matter? I would say, not really to make a huge difference, as Archangel will stay out of range and dodge her.

Her strength might not make a huge difference, but its still important not only in blocking his wing attacks without getting thrown/pushed back, but also to bash Warren's head in when eventually (and inevitably) the fight becomes close quarters. And Warren won't stay out of her range forever. Eventually he'll come down.

• Her sword? Archangel can regen and whitstand stabs as well. And has reaction to evade a decap strike.

Stabs or slashes he can heal from, but they'll slow him down. You haven't posted a single reaction feat from Warren, so how does he evade a decap strike again?

• What about durabilty? Yes, Lyta is most likely more durable to blunt force attacks, and while Warren is not outclassed, blunt force aren´t his main options.

Maybe, but I don't see much of other options so far.

I don´t think her sword has shown the feats yet, bar the atom statement which I think is useless without feats to back it up.

I showed her sword slashing Granny Goodness' face, who is a New God durable enough to brawl with Big Barda. I also showed Hippolyta decapitating giant mythical monsters. If you want me (or most importantly the people reading this) to believe that Warren's wings can NOT be cut by her sword, you need to post some durability feats for them.

Not really relevant for my case. Warren doesn´t need to engage in a h2h fight.

He won't engage in a h2h fight, but a wings vs sword and shield fight. And the winner of that fight would be the one who outskills the other by a HUGE margin.

And if he does, he have solid feats that show that he can react and survive. (Will back up)

Yes, back them up, because as of now, he has none.

So, to resume my first post and counters

• Archangel has the better overall speed., combined with flight. This matters because Hippolyta can´t fly with this gear.

He has better travel speed, which is kind of useless. Flight would allow him to delay the inevitable, as he won't stay in the air all day

• Archangel wings are fast, deadly and clinical, and Hippolyta doesn´t have as of now the feats to counter them.

Yes, she does have counters, i.e. massively superior fighting skills, a sword and a shield.

• Archangel can very likely dish out or block Lyta´s main attacks in case she hits. Call them punches or sword strikes. (Will back up in next post)

He can block some of them, but eventually she'll get through his defence considering how much she outskills him.

Why Hippolyta wins:

Strength difference is bigger than you think

Strength would not be a factor, unless it is considerably more. And Hippolyta is vastly stronger than Archangel. This means every sword strike/shield bash from her would send him reeling back. Also, the combined force from her own strength and the sharpness of the sword could cut, or at least damage his wings. So Warren will have to remain on the defensive throughout the fight. Let me give you some more examples.

JLA vol. 1 #18- Hippolyta changes the direction of a passenger aircraft via brute strength.

Her striking power isn't shabby either. Here's a display of striking power which proves Archangel cannot stand up to her sword strikes, or hits from her shield for long, without sustaining damage.

Amazons Attack #6- Hippolyta punches Wonder Woman so hard that she crashes out of the tower top, flies through and smashes the upper part of the cathedral tower and then lands on the other tower. (Note that immediately after Diana lands on the tower, Hippolyta is there as well, having covered a huge distance in such a short span of time, displaying great combat speed and agility, which Warren seems to be severely lacking in.)

I've already showed more than enough feats of Hippolyta's combat speed putting her ahead of Warren.

Hippolyta's skills are far more than Archangel could handle

Warren has never, I repeat, never fought anyone as skilled as Hippolyta. The only advantage Warren has in this fight is the greater reach his wings provide, but given the fighter she is, Hippolyta would not only counter every attack from those wings of his, but she would eventually fight her way through them and reach Warren's body. And when she does, Warren simply stands no chance. I know Warren has enhanced healing (even though you have to show how good that healing is, you haven't shown anything about how good his healing factor is), but he would still get hurt from her sword. And if Hippolyta sees that Warren heals from lesser wounds, she won't hesitate to decapitate him. Or KO him with a punch, coz I don't see Warren tanking a punch to the face from her.

If you're still having doubts about whether Hippolyta is skilled enough to fight her way through his wings or not, allow me to change your mind.

First, let me introduce to DC's Hercules (or Heracles). He is a solid high tier on par with Superman or Wonder Woman. Let me post some of his feats. I'm not posting scans, but rather linking them.

• Hercules has held the entire island of Themyscira on his back for 3000 years while at half power.
• Hercules has held his own against Gog for some time.
• Hercules has alongside Wonder Woman, fought a clone of DOS era Doomsday.

• Gave Wonder Woman an even fight
• Made Superman bleed with a casual elbow to the nose.

So, its safe to say, DC's Hercules is near the upper end of high tiers. Now lets see what happened when Hippolyta faced off against Hercules.

Gallery

Scans 1 & 2: Wonder Woman vol. 2 #1- That's right, Hippolyta schooled a high tier without breaking a sweat. True, Hercules didn't appear harmed, but that's because Hippolyta spared his life for a truce. How many times do you see mid-tiers humiliate high tiers in this manner, considering the stat difference? Just compare this fight to Wonder Woman's own fight against Hercules. Oh, and don't be fooled into thinking that Hercules is testing her. He came to beat her; on getting schooled he decides to fool her into thinking that they came for an alliance (as is proved by the tragic events that follow).

There's more where that came from. But this is more than sufficient to prove that Hippolyta is far, far skilled than anyone Archangel has fought, and going past his wings won't be difficult for her at all.

Summary:

• Stat difference does matter when it is big enough, which it clearly is here. Hippolyta is boatloads stronger than Archangel.
• Hippolyta has great combat speed, as opposed to Warren's (apparently) non-existent combat speed.
• Hippolyta is so much more skilled than Warren that not only would she go untouched by his wings, but also fight through them to a closer distance where she can kill him by decapitation or KO him if she's in a merciful mood.

@payneintheass: Second post is up, bro.

Tag after every post

Nice.

Dude are you sure she is only mid? :p

ROUND 2

I am going to continue covering more factors to why Archangel could win. Combined with counters

-- Point 1/Counter --

Regarding travel speed as useless or not

Archangel travel speed matters because it is a way how he attacks.

Here he does a bullrush though a stone pyramid (Uncanny X-Men #4)

Now, not only this proves travel speed is important, because he combines it with attacks, it also gives Warren a bump in his strength. Power output he can´t done with simple punches, he can do them with these bullrushes.

And giving that Angel sometimes moves as fast as a blur, it may be too much for her.

-- Point 2/Counter --

Regarding fighting skill and reacions.

One of your focal points is establishing Lyta as way more skilled. While I agree in the sense that Warren has not her capabilities barehanded he does have ways to counter this.

COUNTER 1 – Wings that move on their own.

The wings have shown to react on their own, avoiding any danger while for x reason, Warren is not there in the moment. (X-Factor #56 - Ravens)

COUNTER 2 – Speed reactions themselves

He is also very capable of doing such things as reacting to bullets and Hawkeye himself.

- Here he reacts and dodges 3 arrows from Hawkeye, one of the most impressive marksmen in Marvel and DC.

(AVX: VS #5 - Angel vs. Hawkeye; Black Panther vs. Storm;)

• Here he reacts to a bullet fired by Betsy , this is impressive because it´s is a very short distance (Uncanny X-Force #16 - No Such Thing)

COUNTER 3 – Fighting skills

Archangel has fought people like Wolverine, Psylocke, Sabertooh, all very skilled and fast people. This suggest that he is not totally outclassed.

Here he fights X-23, Warpath and Wolverine, he overpowers them, with pinions, strength and with his wings. Yes, it´s not a fight to the death, but he was established as very dangerous, so X-Force couldn´t take chances.

(X-Force #5)

Gallery

-- Point 3/Counter --

Regarding Lyta as a physically stronger rival

This can be countered by

COUNTER 1 – As stated in the counter 2 section above, speed, reactions, skills.

COUNTER 2 – Archangel durability, which can be divided into 2

1- Wings durability

The wings have shown to be durable enough to missiles, automatic gunfire. But the most important durability feat is when they tank Geonocide blast. A blast that took a whole town down.

(Uncanny X-Force #14 - Thunder for the Next World)

Gallery

And here are Warren´s wings tanking the whole blast

2- Warren himself durability

He has tanked Stryfe´s TK blasts, this blasts could one shot Rogue herself and taking down Colossus.

Gallery

Warren here takes It fine. (X-Force #16)

Note – You may argue that Apocalypse hit him first, therefore the blast wasn´t so focused. But you could also argue he hit the blast first, then Apoc slammed him.

Note 2 - I could also argue that when Hippolyta punched Diana, Diana wasn´t expecting it. So I am lowballing a bit that feat, the way you could lowball a bit this Stryfe´s feat.

-- Point 4/Counter --

Regarding Hippolyta´s gear

This can be countered by all of the above, call it evading or as I stated in the opener, just disarming her via wings, cutting limbs. Not to mention his living wings.

But say Lyta gets a strike.

My counter would be: location and healing factor.

If Warren gets a strike that he feels, his HF can do the trick, not to mention, the location, as I stated in the opener, gives Warren an aerial advantage. He can retreat and strike again once healed.

Here is some of his healing capabilities

"Casually" reacts to Wolverine´s claws (X-Force #17)

In the next page, he is flying already

-- Point 5/Counter --

Pinions

Pinions´s speed

In X-Force #13, Domino and Warren are taking down some Sapien soldiers, it is implied that Dom is using some sort of sniper rifle, and in the scene, Warren´s pinions are just as fast as her bullets

Pinion´s power

They can cut people as durable as Apocalypse (The Uncanny X-Men #295 - X-Cutioner's Song Part Five: Familiar Refrain)

Pinion´s area of effect

This is interesting, since in the opener you said she can block them, sure she can. But the point here (and this is what I meant with the shield covering a greater area, basically, I was saying the shield was a good counter for them, hehe)

So anyway, my theory or argument is that Lyta is shown 2, 3 bullets in your scans.

And, when she was being hit with more rounds, she used the shield but she also was evanding/rolling to a side.

What I want to argue here, is that Archangel has been show throwing pinions that range from the head to the feet, that´s why mean with Pinon´s area of effect.

Bullets are fired one by one, or in a very specific area (torso, for example). And with the pinions , they are shot several at the same time, and also covering the whole body.

This is why I believe she would eventually being hit by some of them.

SUMMARY OF COUNTERS/POINTS

• Wings are durable enough
• Wings are fast enough to react , even by themselves
• Warren himself is durable enough to punches
• Warren can heal and fast/agile enough to evade some attacks
• Location gives Angel an edge, can be used to take breaks if needed, or heal, most likely.
• Location provides Angel the continuous chance to bullrush or speedblitzing.
• Location provides also the chance to spam pinions, which are very likely around regular bullet speed. They also cover a greater area.

@overglaze: @the_badman: 2nd post is done as well.

@payneintheass:Nice. Could you provide citations like I did in my posts? I'd like to check some of them myself and while I've read X-Force, I haven't read the Dark Angel showings.

@the_badman: I am missing a couple of them but its done.

Dude are you sure she is only mid? :p

Yes I am. And considering you think Archangel can beat her, so are you. ;-)

Closing Statement:

Counter to Payne's counters:

Archangel's speed:

Angel's wings vs Hippolyta's skill:

One of your focal points is establishing Lyta as way more skilled. While I agree in the sense that Warren has not her capabilities barehanded he does have ways to counter this.

Does he, now?

COUNTER 1 – Wings that move on their own.

The wings have shown to react on their own, avoiding any danger while for x reason, Warren is not there in the moment. (X-Factor #56 - Ravens)

So, the wings can attack when Warren is not "in there". Fine. But how is it a counter to Hippolyta's skills exactly? The wings reacted to danger when Warren's mind was attacked, but this does not suugest they can actually come up with counters to Hippolyta's moves. This merely means they react to danger like a reflex action.

COUNTER 2 – Speed reactions themselves

He is also very capable of doing such things as reacting to bullets and Hawkeye himself.

- Here he reacts and dodges 3 arrows from Hawkeye, one of the most impressive marksmen in Marvel and DC.

Arrow timing is meh and frankly useless against a fighter of Hippolyta's caliber. Bullet timing >> Arrow timing, and characters with bullet timing feats like Cassandra Cain, Daredevil etc. are tagged in close quarters combat all the time, and you think Archangel can counter Hippolyta with Arrow timing reactions? Fighters do go untouched in battles at times, but that is when there is a huge skill gap (like here). Arrow timing or bullet timing can help to dodge projectiles, but not blows in a close-quarters fight. In the same comic a couple pages later, Hawkeye tags Warren up close with his arrows.

• Here he reacts to a bullet fired by Betsy , this is impressive because it´s is a very short distance (Uncanny X-Force #16 - No Such Thing)

It doesn't look like he actually reacted to the bullet, he just moved out of the way fast. It doesn't look like bullet timing, but rather aim dodging considering, that Betsy gave him a lot of time to know what's coming by collecting the gun from the floor with tk.

Archangel has fought people like Wolverine, Psylocke, Sabertooh, all very skilled and fast people. This suggest that he is not totally outclassed.

Psylocke is moderately skilled as is Sabertooth, while Wolverine is a brawler. Did he even utilize skill in his fight against Archangel?

Here he fights X-23, Warpath and Wolverine, he overpowers them, with pinions, strength and with his wings. Yes, it´s not a fight to the death, but he was established as very dangerous, so X-Force couldn´t take chances.

Like you said these guys were holding back. And Wolverine is obviously the most skilled opponent here but he does not use his fighting skills in all of his fights, so just because someone has faced Wolverine doesn't mean they have counter Wolverine's fighting skills when he actually uses them. And most importantly, Hippolyta is considerably more skilled than Wolverine. She fights enemies outside of her weight class purely through her skill, while Logan does that thanks to his Adamantium skeleton/claws, and healing factor. She also uses her skills in every fight she's in.

The wings have shown to be durable enough to missiles, automatic gunfire. But the most important durability feat is when they tank Geonocide blast. A blast that took a whole town down.

And here are Warren´s wings tanking the whole blast

Impressive, but energy durability doesn't translate to blunt force or cutting/piercing durability.

He has tanked Stryfe´s TK blasts, this blasts could one shot Rogue herself and taking down Colossus.

Warren here takes It fine. (X-Force #16)

Apocalypse hit her fir-

Note – You may argue that Apocalypse hit him first, therefore the blast wasn´t so focused. But you could also argue he hit the blast first, then Apoc slammed him.

Oh you brought it up lol. Well, we see both happening on the same page, same panel, so they probably happened at the same time. Even if she attacked Warren first, it would be moments before Apoc hit her, so she definitely got distracted by seeing Apoc charge at her. We have no reason to believe that this was the strongest of Stryfe's tk blasts. Just because Stryfe has taken out Rogue or Colossus doesn't mean every single tk blast fired by her is that powerful.

Note 2 - I could also argue that when Hippolyta punched Diana, Diana wasn´t expecting it. So I am lowballing a bit that feat, the way you could lowball a bit this Stryfe´s feat.

Uh, Diana was holding back in fighting her own mother obviously. This feat was not brought up by me to show Hippolyta can hit/tag WW, but to show that she destroyed the upper floors of two buildings by punching someone hard. You got it wrong.

Regarding Hippolyta´s gear

This can be countered by all of the above, call it evading or as I stated in the opener, just disarming her via wings, cutting limbs. Not to mention his living wings.

Honestly, there was nothing above to counter her gear. Arrow timing and underwhelming combat speed are not enough to give Warren an advantage. His wings might react to threats, but that doesn't give his wings fighting skills. How is he going to cut off the limbs of a foe who is superior both physically and skill-wise, unless she stands still and lets him do it?

But say Lyta gets a strike.

My counter would be: location and healing factor.

If Warren gets a strike that he feels, his HF can do the trick, not to mention, the location, as I stated in the opener, gives Warren an aerial advantage. He can retreat and strike again once healed.

If his healing factor is not fast enough like Wolverine and he retreats and takes time to heal, this would count as a tactical retreat (in other words, running away). That counts as a victory for Hippolyta. And assuming he returns, she'll understand that he heals fast and would go straight for decapitation this time. Warren still won't be winning, considering a little rest won't give him a way to counter Hippolyta's skills. And Hippolyta still has the reflexes to react to his aerial attacks, as Warren has so far utilized his travel speed on a pyramid and some unsuspecting guards, not a mobile and skilled foe.

Here is some of his healing capabilities

"Casually" reacts to Wolverine´s claws (X-Force #17)

In the next page, he is flying already

Ok, so his healing factor does seem fast. But it was fast against a clearly non lethal stab from Wolverine. No reason to assume it would be as fast against serious injuries from an opponent trying to kill him and not gain his attention. And he has absolutely no feats to suggest that he can survive decapitation.

Pinions:

Pinions´s speed

In X-Force #13, Domino and Warren are taking down some Sapien soldiers, it is implied that Dom is using some sort of sniper rifle, and in the scene, Warren´s pinions are just as fast as her bullets

Dude nothing is clear in this scan. We can't even tell which are bullets and which are pinions. And to prove that bullets are as fast as pinions, you need to show both being fired at the same time, as well as reaching targets at the same time. This particular scan shows nothing of the sort.

Pinion´s power

They can cut people as durable as Apocalypse (The Uncanny X-Men #295 - X-Cutioner's Song Part Five: Familiar Refrain)

I'll never dispute the fact that the pinions can cut through Hippolyta. But they have to go through her shield and bracelets for that. And the pinions are not doing that just because they pierced a jobbing Apocalypse. The pinions never penetrate walls or floors, why would they penetrate her shield or bracelets? Apocalypse, when not jobbing, has effortlessly blocked his pinions.

X-Factor vol. 1 #25- Apoc casually blocks his pinions.

Pinion´s area of effect

This is interesting, since in the opener you said she can block them, sure she can. But the point here (and this is what I meant with the shield covering a greater area, basically, I was saying the shield was a good counter for them, hehe)

So anyway, my theory or argument is that Lyta is shown 2, 3 bullets in your scans.

And, when she was being hit with more rounds, she used the shield but she also was evanding/rolling to a side.

What I want to argue here, is that Archangel has been show throwing pinions that range from the head to the feet, that´s why mean with Pinon´s area of effect.

Bullets are fired one by one, or in a very specific area (torso, for example). And with the pinions , they are shot several at the same time, and also covering the whole body.

This is why I believe she would eventually being hit by some of them.

Ok, so you think Hippolyta will block most of the pinions, but would get hit by a few. I SAY THEE NAY!!! In the scan I showed, the automatic gunfire was fired over a huge area as is clearly shown in the scan. The shooter can cover a huge area as well easily by slightly changing the alignment of his hands. Hippolyta is blocking/evading gunfire by moving out of the way fast, not just standing and blocking them. She'll do the same when pinions are fired at her. Many others have dodged his pinions, such as Beast, who is not even a bullet timer.

I had more feats to further demonstrate Hippolyta's strength and fighting skills, but I don't think they're necessary at this point.

Conclusion:

• Warren still has no way to overcome the huge strength gap, and not impressive blunt force durability feats to walk off Hippolyta's hits.
• His healing factor cannot save him from serious injuries or decapitation, which is highly likely, given Hippolyta's character.
• Warren is hugely, ridiculously outclassed by Hippolyta in the skills department. His wings reacting in a "reflex action" manner is not a counter to her fighting skills.
• Warren combat speed sucks, it seems.

@payneintheass: ^^^^

@overglaze

Lol dat detail in the scan. I see through your terror tactics

I feel like we need more voters tho .

@the_badman: is she high street?

@payneintheass: They were there in all of my posts, bruh. And we'll tag more people when we're finished.

@smxlr8: No she's mid tier. Did my post suggest she's street level?

ROUND 3

Final counters/rebutals and arguments.

One of your criricisms were that I haven´t shown Warren doing a bullrush to a living moving enemy. And overall, him not being impressive in combat reactions.

• Here, in Soule´s Astonishing, Warren does this to Old Man Logan.

• Here are other instances of him using his wings in close combat, around surrounding enemies.

• Other instances using travel speed in combat/blitz

• Here he blocks an attack from Riptide and kills Vertigo at the same time

• Here hs blocks a missile with his wings, and is perfectly fine afterwards. Which I think tells that he could withstand or block Hippolyta´s punches

Deathseed/Dark Angel

As Dark Angel, Warren has this whole aura of being nigh unkilleable.

Now, I don´t want to make it seems like a NLF, rather I want it to be seen as an extra amp that would come in play in an hypotetical fight.

But let´s check out some other feats.

• Warren seems to shrug off Logan´s adamantium claws

The next series of pages/scans show some feats I would like to point out and reinforce from previous posts.

Gallery

Gallery

First, while fighting Wolverine, AoA Nightcrawler and Creed.

• In the first and second scans we see that the wings can whitstand Logan´s claws, and then, he slashes them right in the middle. Then he bulrushes Sunfire through the structure.

Here we see, durability, fighting reactions and usage of speed in a moving living target.

• Then, in page/scan 3 we see him dodging Victor, while shrugging off Wolvie´s attacks.

Nightctawler teleports behind Warren, trying to rip his head off, but Warren reacts and kills him with the wings. Another impressive reaction feat.

• After that, AoA Phoenix appears. Scan 4

AoA characters have usually the same power sets as their 616 counterparts. So while she may not have the same feats as 616 Jean, there is implied power.

She has fought Celestials beings, Exterminators .

• Back to the point. After killing Kurt, Phoenix appears, and blasts Warren. Warren takes it fine. (Scan 5)

Again, you may say, “it doesn´t translate to blunt force durability” . And while you might be in a fair questioning, my point is that as Dark Angel, Warren has this whole aura of being nigh unkilleable.

I also noticed something I didn´t before , you can see Warren blasting Phoenix with some energy proyection from his head.

• Then, Wolverine tackles him, and I used to thought that it was Phoenix who blasted Logan (for some stupid reason) , but it was Warren. (Scan 7)

I don´t know what to make out of this scan, as it seems like an outlier (Blasting Jean with that purple energy projection and then Wolverine) but If we were to take it seriously, Warren could very likely one shot Lyta.

[Then again, I may need to reread the whole saga to remember if this has an explanation, and I might edit it.]

Some conclusions out of this series of panels

• Warren has great durability to Lyta´s weapons. Seeing how he can tank Logan´s attacks. With or without wings.
• He is not totally outclassed in the skill department, seeing how he dispatched Victor and Kurt.

Neurotoxins

One point I forgot to note in previous posts was the neurotoxins, this is some paralyzing venom that his pinions give.

• Said neurotoxins have slowed down people with established HF like Wolverine.

• The O5 as well

• Also, he does not only throw lots of them, he can be very precise. Cutting an arrow in half after fired.

I already stated why he could hit her. And this neurotoxin could most likely have some effect on her.

Conclusion

• Hippolyta slashing/piercing durability feats. They are lacking.
• Warren has superior speed, which can be combined with attacks.
• I´ve shown a wide arrange of Warren´s stats. Durability, speed, HF.and combat showings. With this, I´m trying to prove that he has overall more going for him.
• His wings and even body seem to have great durability, in all aspects
• Warren´s wings and pinions quantity and accuaracy shown as deadly.
• Again, the location gives Warren a lot of chance to manouver freely, try to bulrush , spam pinions and heal when needed.

is this open for votes?

@geekryan: It will be

Ok, T4V

Alright, voting is open now.

• @empressofdread
• @_kingoflatveria
• @blackpantherisb
• @wollfmyth209
• @kevd4wg
• @overglaze
• @geekryan

Thanks to the shortage of people asking to be tagged, I'm tagging the following. If you guys are not interested, ignore.

@brucerogers@krleavenger@amcu@kanyecosby@crimson_lord@arkhamasylum3@lanternbatman

In case you guys are interested, @ancient_0f_days@beatboks1

@payneintheass: I've opened for voting.

@the_badman: I'll try to vote today. EDIT: Looks short. I'll vote today.

Alright, after reading through it, I'll hand my vote to @the_badman.

He did a great job convincing me of how all venues of Archangel's attacks would be countered, and demonstrated the skill and strength gap rather well. Nice debate both of you. ^_^

Might take a read through if I can be bothered to get around to it.

@payneintheass: @the_badman: I read your CAV. But before I vote. I want to know @the_badman are you fine with your opponent introducing new feats (game-changing ones) in his closer? Since you could not counter them?

EDIT: For example feats such as bullrushing Wolverine and paralysing toxin.

@empressofdread: I'm fine with them. I've shown why the pinions won't be touching Hippolyta, so him bringing up toxins released by them doesn't chance anything. Bullrushing Old Man Logan by surprise isn't very impressive to me, but since I didn't get a chance to counter them, you can take them any way you want.

My vote is going to @the_badman

In general, his arguments and counters were better. Furthermore, he provided many more relevant feats/scans with context. His structure and formatting was better as well, which does make a difference in a debate.

Payne didn't do badly at all, but his arguments and counters were just not as strong. He also provided many new scans in his last post, which I personally find shady in a CaV. He also made the mistake of comparing travel speed to combat speed.

I would like to point out that before I read the posts, my bias for this fight was towards Archangel, so good job to Badman for convincing me otherwise! However, this statement alone really put me off:

Artemis is the most skilled of the Amazons. She is a Bana Amazon, who unlike Amazons of Themyscira, have human stats. Artemis is possibly the greatest martial artist in present day DC Universe.

Regardless of that, good job to the both of you! It was a fun, short CaV to read through.

@geekryan: @wollfmyth209: Thanks for reading and voting guys. Hope you enjoyed.

@geekryan why that statement put you off I'd like to know. But PM me, I don't want this to derail the CaV.

@the_badman: @payneintheass: This was a really good debate. Both characters had considerable advantages over the other. So I will be weighing that before I vote. @payneintheass your formatting was not good compared to @the_badman and he provided citations for his feats. Which I appreciate anyone doing in their CAV. But when it comes down to details between your arguments, since I can't vote based on formatting alone. I will say @payneintheass was doing good in all the rounds.

I already told @payneintheass you used new scans in your last post. That is a bad strategy. I was sold on Hippolyta being faster in "reaction time" and I was also convinced that she is stronger. However, I wasn't convinced that she won't be tagged once and Archangel does go for Kill shots and while Lyta needs to go for decapitation to put him down. I wasn't convinced by Hippolyta being fast enough to "speedblitz" and take down, Archangel considering he has advantages like flight, healing factor, travel speed. Now for me, it seemed like it would be easier for Archangel to put down Hippolyta based on the arguments presented. Like better travel speed and flight and firing pinions. She is also getting pierced by sharp objects. Then there is the fact that it has a paralysing toxin. So ultimately as fast as Hippolyta is I am just not sold her on dodging everything on the ground and at the same time attack and take Archangel down while he has the flight to stay away and bullrush using his travel speeds as well. Now as @the_badman couldn't address some of his arguments. And I am actually being convinced by those arguments and it seems to be fine by him. Like as Dark Angel he was able to shrug off slashes from Wolverine as well who has adamantium claws. As good as @the_badman debates generally and I appreciate that. I can't vote for him while I can see that Archangel has a clear-cut advantage here. Remember this is based on what you guys showed to me. Personally, I wouldn't be fine with my opponent using so many new feats in his closer feats that clearly change things but since @the_badman is okay with it, I have to vote objectively which means I have to consider those advantages presented as a legit argument. So In short, I have to vote for @payneintheass. It could have gone other way if you got to address those arguments. However, it didn't come to that and you were fine with it. In your defence @the_badman you did present some feats that would allow her to dodge the pinions and you told me that. This should be very generous by @the_badman allowing you to go away with it. Normally at least I wouldn't be okay with these much new feats presented. But unfortunately, I was convinced by those feats. I hope this explanation was fine for both of your guys, and for what its wort both of you did really good. Just personally I would advise @payneintheass not to use new feats in the last post and to improve your formatting.

@empressofdread: Thanks for reading and voting.

@the_badman: You are welcome.

@empressofdread:

@the_badman: