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#1 Edited by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

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Battlefield

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Rules

General

  • In character / Morals on
  • Win by any means except BFR
  • No prep
  • Aquaman starts in water and Thor is on dry land. 100 feet apart visible

Thor

  • 616 Version of Thor
  • Thor will not use weather manipulation powers or godblast
  • If it gets to that he is allowed to enter Warrior Madness

Aquaman

  • Post Flashpoint
  • Aquaman will not have the Poseidon Blessing trident
  • Aquaman will not use elemental powers or flying
  • Aquaman will not use his armies or Atlantean technology
  • Aquaman will not summon Topo

General CAV Rules:

- If you want to notify either of us of anything relevant to the debate, pm us

- Please don't actually debate on this thread, this is a challenge between the two of us

- Please don't make premature statements in regards to the victor

- When voting, vote for the person you believed set out a better argument (not mainly the character that you think would actually win the fight)

- When voting provide reasoning, mostly as proof that you've actually read and understood it

- While posting battle relevant posts is not allowed, feel free to post any jokes, memes, or call outs you desire.

@lvenger Seem alright?

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#2 Edited by Vertigo- (17683 posts) - - Show Bio

this is gonna be high class.

t4v

good luck to the both of you

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#3 Posted by NeonGameWave (19333 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

Interesting matchup also callouts don`t work in the OP and I was wondering why Aquaman is being restricted, @lvenger.

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#4 Posted by lubub55 (12877 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#5 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

Interesting matchup also callouts don`t work in the OP and I was wondering why Aquaman is being restricted, @lvenger.

Was about to PM him the link, but thanks anyhow.

I felt bad about restricting Thor's lightning to avoid getting lightning spammed so, for the sake of fairness i excluded Poseidon's blessing.

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#6 Posted by jayskee (4821 posts) - - Show Bio

TV4

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#7 Edited by Amendment50 (15173 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#8 Posted by Nathaniel_Adam (3707 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for votes

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#9 Edited by Goldchamp101 (8760 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#10 Posted by phillip33 (3932 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v

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#11 Edited by Lvenger (36335 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Yes this is all good and fair truly, but are you sure you don't want Aquaman to be able to summon Topo? You've left in Thor's trump card after all, it would be fair on that basis if Aquaman got his trump card. Anyway, I can work on getting my intro post up right now if you prefer to go second.

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#12 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I will manage, if i may ask, what is Thor's trump card? Mjolnir itself? Or did i forget something?

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#13 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

Super cool, tag me when it's done

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#14 Posted by Lvenger (36335 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Warrior's Madness. Though I doubt Thor will really use it in a fight.

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#15 Edited by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Warrior Madness is something that almost never happens. If you can make the case for it happening i don't mind it at all.

Btw, feel free to open, i will reply when i get the time (probably monday-ish)

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#16 Posted by BullPR (5859 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please!

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#17 Posted by Lvenger (36335 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

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Opener

Thor Odinson

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Cometh at me fish-bro.

Bio

Thor is the blood-son of Odin, All-Father of the Asgardians, and Jord, better known as Gaea, the goddess who was one of the Elder Gods or Mother Earth. Odin sought to father a son whose power would derive from both Asgard and Midgard (as the Earth realm is called by Asgardians), and hence he sought to mate with Jord to sire this heir. From their union, Thor was brought into the world. He was beloved by all of Asgard, worshipped by mortals and eventually became worthy enough to wield the mystical hammer Mjolnir. Thor became a powerful, honourable but arrogant warrior who did not know how to be humble. Odin decided that his son needed to be taught humility and placed Thor in the body of Donald Blake, a partially disabled doctor. On a vacation in Norway, Blake witnessed the arrival of stone-like aliens and fled into a cave to escape them. He discovered a large stick that he struck against the wall of the cave turning it into Mjolnir and Blake into Thor. From that moment onwards, Thor has served as a foremost protector of Midgard and Asgard and is one of the most powerful defenders of both his homes.

Powers and Abilities (that are allowed in this debate)

  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Durability
  • Superhuman Stamina
  • Mjolnir - Flight and enchanted to return to Thor's hand once thrown no matter how far it travels.

Physical Stats Intro

Strength

As the son of Odin and Gaea, Thor possesses immense strength well beyond the limited definition of Class 100+. This is one area where Thor definitely outshines Aquaman. Arthur may have gotten a noticeable boost in raw strength from his New 52 incarnation, but Thor has been lifting incredibly heavy stuff. Whilst Aquaman can casually lift cruise ships now, Thor can tow the hydrobase on his back (Avengers #301)

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He's casually carried the largest tower of Asgardia and placed it in Broxton without a sweat (Thor: God of Thunder #24)

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And Thor can consistently stalemate Hercules in their arm wrestling contests, this is just one example where the table breaks under their might before Thor or Herc caves in (Thor #222)

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These are but a few examples demonstrating why Thor would clearly come out on top in any contest of strength or wrestling between him and Aquaman in a test of strength.

Striking Power - Melee and Ranged

Thor can also hit pretty hard with his fists but most of his striking feats, including his best ones, come from wielding Mjolnir.

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An apt description for a mighty weapon. Aquaman would be wise to avoid whatever of Thor's attacks he can because Thor can deal some heavy damage to his opponents either up close or at a distance. For melee blows, Thor has belted the Hulk from a canyon to a dam in a single blow (Avengers Season One)

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He's one shotted MODOK even though MODOK had just stated his forcefield could withstand a nuclear bomb.

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And an attack on the dragon Fafnir from Mjolnir was felt as far away as Pennsylvania (Thor #343)

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But Thor is not limited to melee blows with Mjolnir, he throws his weapon at his enemies with often immense force. One such threw cleaved a mile wide piece of wreckage in two with ease (Uncanny Avengers #7)

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He's bowled Rulk over from the force of his hammer throw (Hulk Vol 2 #26)

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Even a Starbrand user is sent flying by the momentum of Mjolnir when thrown. And although Starbrand shrugged off that attack, Aquaman would not be so lucky if hit similarly (Avengers #8)

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This is just the warm up evidence though, the kind of hits Thor would start with in character would do damage to Aquaman. Thor's best blows though will prove to be capable of felling Aquaman in a mere few attacks that Aquaman's durability cannot withstand.

Durability

And speaking of durability, I wager that's another area in which Thor outclasses Aquaman. His body can withstand more trauama and force than what I've seen from Aquaman. For starters, here a younger and inebriated Thor survives a headbutt from Apocalypse whose impact sends shockwaves for hundreds of miles (Uncanny Avengers #6)

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A blow from Rogue that could shatter diamonds only serves to make Thor blink.

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He's taken a pummeling from several supervillains at once, including Titania and Absorbing Man and swatted them off (Secret Wars #4

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And although Aquaman can't use energy attacks on him, his energy durability feats show just how much Thor can withstand. When Kang dropped a nuke on a city which killed everyone in it, Thor suffered no harm from it.

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Thus, Thor is clearly not lacking in the durability department either, he can almost take what he's capable of dishing out. Aquaman is not overpowering Thor by force alone, so the trident argument will be the alternative to getting through Thor's durability. I'll reply to that later.

Initial Considerations

With Thor's weather control and energy powers nullified, this fight will ultimately come down to an up close and personal struggle of muscle against sinew. Sure Thor can fly up into the air and Aquaman is a natural swimmer needless to say but the fight will be decided by what takes place in close quarters combat. Despite having participated in countless battles and having thousands of years of combat experience, Thor tends to take a simplistic and direct approach to fighting his enemies; brawling with them and overpowering them through brute force. Not the most strategic or cunning of strategies, but luckily Thor can back this basic tactic up with superior raw strength and power. Aquaman may have an impressive weapon too, be faster than Thor and have the environmental advantage in being able to take the fight to the water but in the words of the Odinson himself

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Your turn @chimeroid.

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#18 Edited by Lvenger (36335 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: I don't think he can easily tap into it actually, it's something which is often circumstantial and very rare as you said. It's also not something Thor would do in character and it won't be needed against Aquaman I believe ;)

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#19 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I didn't forget about us, but with studying and my time limited tourney round against ssj_god i didn't have the time. Will post tomorrow for sure.

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#20 Posted by Lvenger (36335 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: No worries, I get that studying for exams or essays is real important stuff believe me. And your ssjgod tourney looks tough, no need to rush this CAV.

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#21 Posted by Bullet_to_the_Head (4310 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice Opener for Thor

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#22 Posted by EcstaticGrace (7082 posts) - - Show Bio

Opinion wise should of did a Composite Aquaman. This is Thor with 50+ Years of continuity vs Aquaman with 5 years.

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#23 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

Opinion wise should of did a Composite Aquaman. This is Thor with 50+ Years of continuity vs Aquaman with 5 years.

Wouldn't be fair to Thor if i did that and restricted his lightning. Plus Composite Aquaman vs Thor boils down to Basal Amygdala Seizure vs Lightning and makes for a boring debate.

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#24 Edited by EcstaticGrace (7082 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Remove TP and Just use the Physical showings?

I don't know much about Thor though so I'll see how the debate goes.

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#25 Edited by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

I will open with a bigger post and a lot of feats to save time for our future posts.

Opener

Arthur Curry - Aquaman

"You obviously don't come in peace, but feel free to leave in pieces!"

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Biography:

As short as possible. Aquaman is the telepathic ruler of Atlantis and the Earth's oceans, an Atlantean with incredible strength and speed as well as the ability to command all sea-life

Let's get to the fun part.

POWERS:

Strength:

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Aquaman is definitely ways above a class 100. Ever since the Flashpoint event he was able to lift tens of thousands of tons and even out muscle Hercules himself.

Let's start with some feats that come very early in the New 52. I hope i will show both to you, and our voters, that Aquaman does not fall behind Thor in strength department as much as you have expected.

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1. JL #10 - He lifts a cruise ship with one hand. 2-3. Aquaman #4-He pushes so hard on the rock he collapses a huge cliff into the trench - the sheer amount of rocks that fell after he collapsed it shows it to be a better feat than lifting an Asgardian building which would sit pretty at that trench cliff.

To prove that lifting cruise ships is really not too hard for him let's show him use one as a weapon(Aquaman #22) :

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Now, as they developed him, he continued on getting incredible feats of strength, both in lifting heavy objects and in fighting powerful opponents, i will open with him throwing a submarine from the bottom of the ocean all the way to the surface. (Aquaman 21)

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Keeping in mind that smaller submarines like the one i have shown weigh in on around 10.000 tonnes and that he threw it for a couple of miles through the water that easily confirms him as being able to lift at least 100.000 tonnes.

But, this is where it gets fun, Aquaman has really nice showings against DC powerhouses, proving he has enough raw strength to hang with the toughest.

And since you have used Hercules as an example to showcase Thor's strength- let me do the same. This time, it will be DC's Hercules, and i know they are not the same characters, but their baseline feats remain the same - 12 labors, and beating Amazons. Proving that they are, at the very least, at similar if not the same levels of strength(Aquaman #30) :

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He broke out of Hercules's hold 2 times during the fight. Feat based on pure strength.

And for those who think out muscling Hercules is no big deal i have an even better fight- Martian Manhunter. That's right, good ol' fishsticks has taken on a possessed Martian Manhunter and beaten him. Keep in mind, i am not saying he beats Martian Manhunter as a lot of factors were in that fight, all i'm saying is that his strength is comparable to that of MMH which comes from this fight from Aquaman #36

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Now, i can expect you to say that MMH was possessed for this fight and not fighting to his full potential due to Ghosts not knowing all of his abilities, but even with that, it takes no knowledge to utilize pure Physical Strength of a body. And that is what has happened there.

Striking Power / Trident:

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Thor does pack a punch, but Aquaman is not too bad himself. He has some pretty good striking feats that don't include the tip of his Trident.

Since i have already shown his punches affecting Martian Manhunter I will start with the most famous/infamous one. The one where he decks out Superman in JL #16 and then proceeds to fight Wonder Woman.

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1. I posted full pages to show that Batman started the fight, not Arthur as he is falsely accused of that a lot.

Now, Why is this feat impressive? I have seen a lot of people discredit it by saying it did nothing to Superman. But it did. It knocked him out. Proof is simple. After Arthur punches him all hell breaks loose. Armies are emerging, Wonder Woman and Aquaman fight, Orm knocks Batman out fight moves away from the docks. And when Superman finally comes to his senses 6 pages later.

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He obviously has no idea what happened. If the punch didn't affect him why did it take him 6 pages and a lot of in comic time to come back, and then admit he doesn't know what happened?

I will follow this feat with the feat of Arthur shattering David Graves' shielding. (JL #12).

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Now, let's see why is that so impressive. Well, David Graves was a legitimate Team Buster and has already beaten the Justice League before, but let's focus on his shielding alone:

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1. Flash 2. Superman heat vision swatted like it's nothing 3. Wonder Woman Kick, Hal's blast and Superman's vision 4. Bloodlusted Wonder Woman strike.

None of that was able to break his shield. But Aquaman shattered it with the blunt end of his trident.

As for the business end of the trident, i believe two feats will be more than enough to prove he can easily pierce through Thor.

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Piercing Darkseid and Rao respectively

With this i feel i have definitely proven he has the striking power to match the top tiers like Superman and Thor, even if he is weaker than them. And with the finals scans i have shown his trident being capable of piercing the toughest of hides.

Durability:

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I am fully aware of Thor being more durable of the two but it was never a point to prove which is more durable, right now i just need to prove Aquaman can survive some lucky Mjolnir shot Thor might get in and i only need enough to prove he can survive ONE. I will show why in the next section.

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1. Takes a beating from a bloodlusted Hercules 2. Stops and survives a small continent busting attack 3. 4. Takes a barrage of attacks including hits and heat vision from Martian Manhunter. (MMH didn't hold back since he was possessed)

I believe this should be enough to prove he can successfully survive a lot of Thor's average attacks and at least a couple of stronger Mjolnir strikes.

Healing Factor:

This is the reason i only have to prove him being able to survive only ONE hit from Thor. Aquaman's mystical connection to the sea grants him incredible regenerative powers while he is in water. Literally Wolverine level healing.

I will start with a showing from Aquaman and the Others #4-5 where he was stabbed and mortally wounded by Legend. (long story) The Others then decided to drop him in a pool. He instantly healed and was completely revitalized.:

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From there it only gets better:

After his fight with the dead king Aquaman #23 he healed in only a couple of panels from a wounds that should be fatal by all accounts:

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Panel by panel of him healing from huge wounds.

Or from the next chapter where he instantly heals from another stab wound (these scans directly precede the famous continent busting blocking page):

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I have more, but i believe this should be more than enough to prove my point. As long as he survives, even barely, a hit he will be healed to full health AND full strength in moments.

Speed

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This is where Aquaman holds an advantage, a very small one, but still, existent. His bulrushes from a standstill have left the likes of Superman and Wonder Woman surprised and unable to react, he has blocked lasers and powerful spells and has dodged laser fire. Proving his abilities he has also kept up in combat against Wonder Woman, but i will leave that for the next subtitle.

But let's start with something small. From Aquaman and the Others:

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Opening the door springs a trap designed to kill the prisoner. Flying swords already crossed most of the way and Aquaman managed to catch both with his trident in an instant.

This is already impressive as it is. But it gets better:

In the Throne of Atlantis story-line he has jumped over Lasers and even before that he has blocked them with his trident.

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And, of course, i can't avoid using the most popular one - Him punching Wonder Woman before she has the time to tighten the Lasso of Truth around his neck. Whether or not she wanted to fight is debatable, but she was trying to tie him up but he was simply too fast for that.

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And don't forget, in the end he was the one who caught Cheetah after she out sped Flash and Superman.

I believe this is enough to prove he will dodge most, if not all, of Thor's attacks while Thor is swinging and that he is capable of dodging Mjolnir when tossed.

Battle Prowess:

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Aquaman is one of the better combatants of DC universe. This could be an unpopular opinion or misunderstood one, but he has showings against the best of the best and he held his own.

I know Thor has claims of thousands of years of experience, but Thor always brawls. It takes an extraordinary situation for him to use actual skill in combat. Aquaman on the other hand has proven his mettle against Wonder Woman in Aquaman Annual #2 actually out-grappling her.

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He actually got the better of her. She got in a headlock and he broke out of it dropping her on her back and was about to pummel her when they were frozen in time.

The fight might have ended either way, and i consider it a stalemate as it is, but he has proven his skill in combat against the best combatant the Justice league has. He matched her speed, strength and durability in combat. And they weren't even in the water.

Aquatic Telepathy

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Aquaman has the ability to summon creatures of the sea to his aid in combat. Now, we have restricted Topo but Topo was not the only extraordinary creature for him.

Let me show you:

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How can they be helpful?

Well, as you can see, some of them are true sea monsters and WHEN Aquaman manages to move the battle to the ocean they will be of great use.

If you didn't notice most of the creatures he summons are tentacle monsters and he usually utilizes them to get a grip on his opponents, with his superior speed and a trident that can pierce through gods any distraction would be enough for him to take the win. Not to mention his sea monsters actually have feats of holding Superbly strong individuals in place. Actually, that is how he beat Hercules.

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As you can see, those squids were powerful enough to hold down Hercules himself someone who was overpowering Aquaman moments ago.

Initial Considerations:

As you have said yourself, this battle will be decided in close quarters combat and with slight speed advantage Aquaman has and the trident that can bypass Thor's durability he has his chance..

I actually believe that, since New 52, Arthur is a better choice in a fight against Thor than Superman for one simple reason - Both Superman and Thor hold back where Thor holds back a LOT against mortals (and Aquaman is one)

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Unlike both of them, Aquaman doesn't hold his punches back. He doesn't hesitate to kill his enemies and use his Trident to the fullest extent.

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That being said, he is still a hero, and will try to stab Thor in a way that would let him survive. But he still holds an edge in attitude for this fight.

With his instant healing factor, slight speed edge, home field advantage and a piercing weapon this fight may very well end up with Aquaman as the victor.

Your turn.

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#26 Posted by Lvenger (36335 posts) - - Show Bio
@ecstaticgrace said:

Opinion wise should of did a Composite Aquaman. This is Thor with 50+ Years of continuity vs Aquaman with 5 years.

Wouldn't be fair to Thor if i did that and restricted his lightning. Plus Composite Aquaman vs Thor boils down to Basal Amygdala Seizure vs Lightning and makes for a boring debate.

That is pretty much what the debate would have come down to in a regular CAV between these two, that's why I wanted to check which version of Aquaman you wanted to use.

In any case, an admirable opener, I like what you've done. Will probably get my response up on Thursday.

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#27 Edited by Lvenger (36335 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

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Counters

Strength

2-3. Aquaman #4-He pushes so hard on the rock he collapses a huge cliff into the trench - the sheer amount of rocks that fell after he collapsed it shows it to be a better feat than lifting an Asgardian building which would sit pretty at that trench cliff.

Indeed that is quite the impressive demonstration of physical prowess for Aquaman and better than my Asgardian castle feat. However, Aquaman was definitely pushing with practically all his might to cause the rocks to collapse. Thor on the other hand has demonstrated a much more casual exertion in performing greater feats of strength than this. Here Thor carries the largest largest mountain in Jotunheim and brings it all the way back to Earth (Thor: God of Thunder #19)

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I believe this to be much more impressive as Thor is casually lifting this enormous weight as if the mountain were a small boulder. This feat alone highlights a much greater contrast between Thor and Aquaman's raw strength than the feats I opened with.

To prove that lifting cruise ships is really not too hard for him let's show him use one as a weapon(Aquaman #22) :

Now, as they developed him, he continued on getting incredible feats of strength, both in lifting heavy objects and in fighting powerful opponents, i will open with him throwing a submarine from the bottom of the ocean all the way to the surface. (Aquaman 21)

Keeping in mind that smaller submarines like the one i have shown weigh in on around 10.000 tonnes and that he threw it for a couple of miles through the water that easily confirms him as being able to lift at least 100.000 tonnes.

I can't fault your interpretation here, Aquaman is certainly capable of weaponisng objects in the thousands and hundreds of thousands range. I see your hundreds of thousands though and raise you to the million ton range.

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  • Collapsed a million ton arch of rock on top of the Destroyer in their first battle (Journey into Mystery #119)
  • Closes a chasm of a "million tons of earth" over Loki (West Coast Avengers #55)
  • Helps throw a compressed city weighing millions of tons with Iron Man and Vision that Graviton had condensed into a metal ball (Avengers #159)

The rule of 3 solidifies the consistency of these showings in how Thor can easily raise the bar over Aquaman in raw strength.

And since you have used Hercules as an example to showcase Thor's strength- let me do the same. This time, it will be DC's Hercules, and i know they are not the same characters, but their baseline feats remain the same - 12 labors, and beating Amazons. Proving that they are, at the very least, at similar if not the same levels of strength(Aquaman #30) :

I'll give you the same baseline but that doesn't equate to DC's New 52 Hercules being close to Marvel Hercules' physicals. It doesn't help that this Hercules has hundreds of issues worth of appearances since his debut at Marvel where we can clearly see just how strong the Prince of Power is.

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  • 1-2: Pulling Manhattan on his back and holding Manhattan together by his arms.
  • 3-4: Lifting and toppling Marvel Godzilla over.
  • 5: Quantifiably lifting the heavens (high end and incalculable but shown on panel)

This is what DC Hercules comparatively lacks. I daresay you'll justify this by claiming him to be at least equal to New 52 Wonder Woman on inference and that DC Hercules probably lifted the heavens but it doesn't match up to the impressiveness of Marvel Hercules' strength feats. Yet in every fight or contest of strength between Thor and Hercules, the result ends as an equally matched stalemate. Despite all these feats, Hercules experiences difficulty pitting his might against Thor's.

And for those who think out muscling Hercules is no big deal i have an even better fight- Martian Manhunter. That's right, good ol' fishsticks has taken on a possessed Martian Manhunter and beaten him. Keep in mind, i am not saying he beats Martian Manhunter as a lot of factors were in that fight, all i'm saying is that his strength is comparable to that of MMH which comes from this fight from Aquaman #36

Now, i can expect you to say that MMH was possessed for this fight and not fighting to his full potential due to Ghosts not knowing all of his abilities, but even with that, it takes no knowledge to utilize pure Physical Strength of a body. And that is what has happened there.

Yes I was going to say that even when mind controlled, MMH was not fighting at his full potential as the ghosts did not know how to use his abilities but that's not a bad response that it probably doesn't take knowledge of another body to use their strength. However, this page of the fight highlights that the physical gap between Manhunter and Aquaman might be greater than you're letting on.

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"I don't think we're going to outlast him." "I know we won't." Aquaman admits here that he and Mera combined wouldn't be able to outlast Martian Manhunter in direct battle. How do you believe he can fare better against someone physically superior to Martian Manhunter? Moreover, Thor has his share of high end outlier feats such as tossing the Midgard Serpent wrapped around Earth, pushing the world engine of the World Tree Yggdrasil and breaking out of gravitational mass akin to a neutron star, but luckily I don't believe these are valid showings of Thor's strength myself. Nonetheless, what I've shown is that Aquaman has a gap to make up between Thor in strength.

Striking Power

Since i have already shown his punches affecting Martian Manhunter I will start with the most famous/infamous one. The one where he decks out Superman in JL #16 and then proceeds to fight Wonder Woman.

Now, Why is this feat impressive? I have seen a lot of people discredit it by saying it did nothing to Superman. But it did. It knocked him out. Proof is simple. After Arthur punches him all hell breaks loose. Armies are emerging, Wonder Woman and Aquaman fight, Orm knocks Batman out fight moves away from the docks. And when Superman finally comes to his senses 6 pages later.

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He obviously has no idea what happened. If the punch didn't affect him why did it take him 6 pages and a lot of in comic time to come back, and then admit he doesn't know what happened?

Ah the obvious choice for Aquaman's striking power. But I am one of those people who do not believe it did anything too significant to Superman, let alone knock him out. One of my counters for your reasoning is that whilst Aquaman punched Superman away for some time, there is no evidence Superman did not come back because he was knocked out from Aquaman's blow. You'll point to the iffy panel of Superman's eyes being closed when hit by Aquaman but this is obscured and relies more heavily on artistic interpretation rather than what clearly happened to Superman. Moreover, I know a little bit about Superman myself so allow me to quickly cite the kind of blunt force Superman has remained conscious from; An uppercut from H'El that sent him into cislunar orbit, being thrown by Wraith hard enough to collapse multiple mountains on top of him and being punched by Rao hard enough to register on seismographs in Metropolis when they were fighting in the Himalayas and suffering broken ribs and a collapsed lung from Rao's beatdown

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Yet Aquaman can knock him out with one single blow? I don't think that adds up right.

I will follow this feat with the feat of Arthur shattering David Graves' shielding. (JL #12).

Now, let's see why is that so impressive. Well, David Graves was a legitimate Team Buster and has already beaten the Justice League before, but let's focus on his shielding alone:

None of that was able to break his shield. But Aquaman shattered it with the blunt end of his trident.

Outside of Wonder Woman drawing some blood from Graves, this at least adds up right and a solid showing of striking from Aquaman. I doubt the blunt end of the trident is going to do any lasting damage to Thor though. Anyway, Thor has broken the forcefield of a team buster as well, a well placed strike from Mjolnir was used to open up a weak spot in Kang's forcefield (Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes #4)

Scan will be coming, I need to scan this feat from my own personal collection as I can't find it online.

Moving on, Thor's blows from Mjolnir easily lay the smackdown on Rulk in their rematch, and Rulk's best feats are also continental like Aquaman's. I consider to be more than a physical match for Aquaman all things considered and yet look what Thor can do to Rulk.

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In the same issue, Thor also one shots one of the giant comets that Banner calculated was on a collision course with Earth.

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And he's staggered Gladiator with his blows, who's essentially a Marvel Superman by his feats.

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As for the business end of the trident, i believe two feats will be more than enough to prove he can easily pierce through Thor.

With this i feel i have definitely proven he has the striking power to match the top tiers like Superman and Thor, even if he is weaker than them. And with the finals scans i have shown his trident being capable of piercing the toughest of hides.

Yep the trident was always my biggest hurdle in doing this debate, given how easily it pierced Darkseid and Graves. Rao however was not pierced by Aquaman's regular trident but by Poisedon's trident which Aquaman was wielding at the time after a pit stop at Olympus' weapons armoury for the gods.

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But Aquaman's regular trident is capable of doing quite a bit of damage to Thor. Before the trident can pierce Thor though, it needs to hit him and Thor can either block the trident with Mjolnir or catch it like so.

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Durability

I am fully aware of Thor being more durable of the two but it was never a point to prove which is more durable, right now i just need to prove Aquaman can survive some lucky Mjolnir shot Thor might get in and i only need enough to prove he can survive ONE. I will show why in the next section.

All right then, we'll see if that stands up to scrutiny. I have a much easier task than yours as I just have to prove Thor can hurt Aquaman with his blows and that criterion has already been met.

1. Takes a beating from a bloodlusted Hercules 2. Stops and survives a small continent busting attack 3. 4. Takes a barrage of attacks including hits and heat vision from Martian Manhunter. (MMH didn't hold back since he was possessed)

I believe this should be enough to prove he can successfully survive a lot of Thor's average attacks and at least a couple of stronger Mjolnir strikes.

Perhaps this covers Thor's average strikes with Mjolnir but not his best ones for sure. As for further demonstrations of Thor's durability, he's taken blows from Gladiator in two of their battles.

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Survived a barrage of blows from an angry Savage Hulk (The Mighty Thor #385)

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And withstood a punch from Thanos (Infinity #6)

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But now you've brought the trident into play, I guess I need to bring up some piercing durability feats. Thor has withstood the dark god Perrikus' 'flesh piercing darts' and the toughness of his skin allowed him to survive Wolverine's adamantium claws with just scratches for a time.

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Clearly Thor is indeed the far more durable one here as you concede.

This is the reason i only have to prove him being able to survive only ONE hit from Thor. Aquaman's mystical connection to the sea grants him incredible regenerative powers while he is in water. Literally Wolverine level healing.

I have more, but i believe this should be more than enough to prove my point. As long as he survives, even barely, a hit he will be healed to full health AND full strength in moments.

So this is your strategy to make up the durability gap, interesting choice. I guess Aquaman's healing in proximity to water does get overlooked sometimes. I won't dispute this happening a few times perhaps, but given Thor's much bigger striking advantage, Aquaman will have to keep falling back on this tactic due to the damage he will keep receiving from Thor whereas Thor can survive damage and carry on fighting far more effectively than Aquaman will. Also, Thor can attack Aquaman whilst he's retreating back to the water, once he realises he's fighting someone with similar powers to Namor, he can stop Aquaman from reaching the water with a hammer throw like how he nailed Namor mid-air (thus showing he can tag Aquaman mid leap with Mjolnr). Alternatively, Thor can fly Arthur out the water to deprive him of his environmental advantage and if Aquaman tried to use the water to his advantage, Thor would be more pressed to end the fight quickly. See scans below for how Thor might use his tactics for Namor against Aquaman.

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Speed

This is where Aquaman holds an advantage, a very small one, but still, existent. His bulrushes from a standstill have left the likes of Superman and Wonder Woman surprised and unable to react, he has blocked lasers and powerful spells and has dodged laser fire.

I won't be one to even attempt to argue that Thor has particularly impressive combat speed and reaction showings myself. But whilst Aquaman does have a speed advantage, it's only slight and only through Aquaman's own natural leaping and bullrushing. Thor is also one to use bullrushing in combat via Mjolnir.

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  1. Bullrushes Death Seed Sentry
  2. Bullrushes Wolverine
  3. Bullrushes Ulik and Dario Agger (Minotaur)
  4. Bullrushes Galactus

Granted, if he were facing a faster opponent, they would be able to see Thor's bullrush coming and react to it appropriately. But Aquaman's reaction times are not so far above Thor's that he cannot be caught out by the sheer speed at which Mjolnir can pull Thor along at. This would be quite effective if Aquaman were caught by Thor's bullrush mid-leap.

And don't forget, in the end he was the one who caught Cheetah after she out sped Flash and Superman.

I believe this is enough to prove he will dodge most, if not all, of Thor's attacks while Thor is swinging and that he is capable of dodging Mjolnir when tossed.

Correction; Aquaman caught Cheetah after Wonder Woman kicked her into the river as part of the plan to capture Cheetah.

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She was knocked out of her element and couldn't swim at the same speeds she could run at. Only then did Aquaman catch her, that context lessens the impressiveness of how you've presented that feat. Most of what you've shown is above street level but it's not enough that Aquaman can permanently avoid Thor's attacks and throws. All Thor needs to do is connect one hit with Aquaman and he's down for Thor to lay into.

Skill

Aquaman is one of the best combatants of DC universe. This could be an unpopular opinion or misunderstood one, but he has showings against the best of the best and he held his own.

Well I find this to be an inaccurate rather than misunderstood statement. Thor's fighting style might be about as refined as a bull in a china shop but he hasn't lost many battles because of his lack of skill. Aquaman's skill is implicitly better but still undefined.

I know Thor has claims of thousands of years of experience, but Thor always brawls. It takes an extraordinary situation for him to use actual skill in combat. Aquaman on the other hand has proven his mettle against Wonder Woman in Aquaman Annual #2 actually out-grappling her.

The fight might have ended either way, and i consider it a stalemate as it is, but he has proven his skill in combat against the best combatant the Justice league has. He matched her speed, strength and durability in combat. And they weren't even in the water.

Thor does usually brawl as previously stated, but against Aquaman Thor is not likely to use because of any supposed skill gap between the two. As for Wonder Woman, he only outskilled her in one area, grappling. I find that hardly an indication that this indicates his skill in relation to Wonder Woman's. She was trained by the Amazons and by Ares in the art of combat and warfare and would undoubtedly outskill Aquaman, and yes Thor, in terms of pure skill. That does not mean Aquaman is capable of fancy martial arts moves in the heat of battle as you seem to be indicating, he brawls a lot too.

Aquatic Telepathy

Aquaman has the ability to summon creatures of the sea to his aid in combat. Now, we have restricted Topo but Topo was not the only extraordinary creature for him.

Let me show you:

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  1. Those sea creatures were summoned when Aquaman was in the Atlantean dimension of Pacifica in search of his mother. They're native to that dimension and unless you can miraculously prove Aquaman can summon sea creatures from across dimensions, I doubt we'll be seeing them in the fight.
  2. This one's fair enough, though I have my doubts Aquaman will be able to drag Thor down that deep to the ocean depths.
  3. Another fair telepathic summon but Thor is far more durable than the average Parademon.
  4. However, your fourth scan is of Topo destroying that giant mechanical robot. And Topo is restricted by your own rules for this CAV.

Well, as you can see, some of them are true sea monsters and WHEN Aquaman manages to move the battle to the ocean they will be of great use.

If you didn't notice most of the creatures he summons are tentacle monsters and he usually utilizes them to get a grip on his opponents, with his superior speed and a trident that can pierce through gods any distraction would be enough for him to take the win. Not to mention his sea monsters actually have feats of holding Superbly strong individuals in place. Actually, that is how he beat Hercules.

With the true sea monsters assertion dealt with, there's the matter of your proposed use of Aquaman's tentacled summons. This one isn't out of the question for Aquaman in character, but it does involve some reaching. There are like two squids in the scan and yet they're somehow restraining Hercules with ease. Aquaman would need a lot more tentacled creatures to accomplish the same with Thor and even then that might not be possible. Thor has hunted, wrestled and overpowered far larger and stronger creatures native to Asgard and the Nine Realms than those squids. They would need to hold him long enough for Arthur to pull out a successful trident stab and none of Aquaman's regular summons are durable enough to do that. Only Topo would be of any use against Thor.

Further Rebuttals

I actually believe that, since New 52, Arthur is a better choice in a fight against Thor than Superman for one simple reason - Both Superman and Thor hold back where Thor holds back a LOT against mortals (and Aquaman is one)

You'd need to find another scan to prove your point than this one as that's from What If? Civil War. And lately, Thor has held back a lot less against his mortal enemies as of late. He probably won't kill Aquaman but his morals are not as strict when it comes to fighting mortals recently.

Unlike both of them, Aquaman doesn't hold his punches back. He doesn't hesitate to kill his enemies and use his Trident to the fullest extent.

That being said, he is still a hero, and will try to stab Thor in a way that would let him survive. But he still holds an edge in attitude for this fight.

Though I can agree with this, Aquaman does hold back less in general whether against a random foe or longtime enemy. But in stabbing Thor in a way that will keep him alive, that will just prolong the battle and give Thor more chances to overpower Aquaman with his superior strength and durability.

Overall, I maintain Thor's greater strength, striking power and durability are enough to constitute the raw power edge Thor still holds Aquaman even without his weather powers against Aquaman's home field advantage and piercing weapon. Thor can withstand Aquaman's assault more effectively than Aquaman can survive what Thor is capable of dishing out.

Your turn @chimeroid

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#28 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Awesome post, will reply in 2 days probably, if not, then Monday. :D

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#29 Edited by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

Round 1

With scan heavy openers we can sit back and argue with facts being known to see how Aquaman wins this battle. I will discuss a little about feats. But this post will mostly be concerned with the flow of battle.

Misunderstanding:

Before i get into my post i will have to clear the air about something. I was not trying to prove Aquaman is Stronger or More Durable than Thor, and it feels like that was your focus in the post. I was only proving that he is both Strong and Durable enough to hang with him like he did against the Martian. I will address your counters in the post, but this is something to be remembered. In the end, strength is needed, but it is the trident that will put Thor down.

Same goes with speed, i was not trying to prove Aquaman has FTL combat speed, i was merely showing he has a speed edge over Thor, similar to how Wolverine or Captain America have one.

So, let's get on with it.

Strength:

Ok, you have shown Thor to be stronger, but that actually changes nothing, hell, everyone already knows that. I have proven Aquaman is strong enough to defend himself as he did against numerous opponents who are as strong (if not stronger than Thor- like MMH). Doesn't matter at all if he would lose or win in H2H against Martian Manhunter or Diana, all that matters is that he has shown his strength to be in the ballpark enough to shortly match them. Which proves his ability to do so here. He would be able to defend himself from Mjolnir using his trident and that is all i need as this is the battle of weapons.

Superman Striking Feat:

In all of scans you have shown he was ready to take a blow. Here he was not. That explains the difference in showings. What you failed to explain is what actually happened in the said feat. I mean, if you believe i misinterpreted it it would be expected of you to have your own interpretation of it and to be willing to share it with the class? Let's just review what happened from the punch to the return.

Aquaman's punch sends him flying-> Wonder Woman and Aquaman fight and talk for 2 pages -> Orm Knocks out Batman -> Orm and Aquaman talk -> Wonder Woman sneaks up on Orm and chokeholds him-> Orm holds an other monologue ->Armies of Atlantis emerge and shoot Wonder Woman off of Orm's back.-> Battle on surface is erupting -> Superman Returns.

Worth to note, between Superman being punched and him coming back there was 300 words of dialogue (i counted). All of this gives us a timeframe of at least 1-2 minutes.

So, if you punch someone so hard it takes him 2 minutes to punch back, what would you call it? What is your explanation to what happened in that feat? Because i see 3 options.

1. Punch hurt Superman enough to knock him out. daze him or slow him down for 2 minutes.

2. Punch sent him flying so far it took him a minute or two to come back

3. Superman went for some tea and cookies in the middle of the attack.

I don't mind countering my feats, but it only works if you offer a different explanation.

Durability

Given the fact Aquaman has easily pierced Darkseid with his trident i don't see Thor's durability taking that stab. Even Superman level characters have only been able to damage Darkseid's eyes, and Aquaman is the only one who actually managed to pierce both his armor and his body in combat.

You show Thor not being pierced by Wolverine's claws, which is impressive, but keep in mind the difference in strength between Wolverine and Aquaman. The amount of force behind the stab will be significant and it will pierce Thor.

Speed

All i was going for is a slight speed advantage. I am not trying to argue Aquaman to be faster than Cheetah, that is the reason the feat wasn't showcased like the others, it was merely mentioned. I mean, she is confirmed to be MFTL outside of water, i doubt she is peak human or slower in it.

Look, my point is that he is faster than Thor. This fight will become close quarters combat between a mallet and a trident. And Aquaman holds a solid speed advantage.

Let's imagine they are both Human and not Superheroes, Speed difference between them is such that it would accurately be represented by a normal human fighting a fast human in real world.

It would basically look like the fight between The Mountain and Oberyn from Game of Thrones except Arthur wouldn't gloat over Thor and let him pop his head like a zit.

Or maybe the actor who played mountain (conveniently nicknamed "Thor") vs Connor McGregor ---- Just imagine if McGregor had a knife in that battle (a tool that can bypass durability) and you get an accurate depiction of our battle. More on later.

Aquatic Telepathy

1. Those sea creatures were summoned when Aquaman was in the Atlantean dimension of Pacifica in search of his mother. They're native to that dimension and unless you can miraculously prove Aquaman can summon sea creatures from across dimensions, I doubt we'll be seeing them in the fight.

2. This one's fair enough, though I have my doubts Aquaman will be able to drag Thor down that deep to the ocean depths.

3. Another fair telepathic summon but Thor is far more durable than the average Parademon.

1. Most of them i have already shown in different scans, they are not really weird creatures. The point was not to showcase those animals, but to showcase his abilities.

2. Aquaman is confirmed to be hypersonic in water. If/When the battle came to water it would take him but a moment to get Thor deep enough.

3. The idea was not to hurt Thor, but to distract him so he can be stabbed. And a giant ass shark is a good distraction.

4. However, your fourth scan is of Topo destroying that giant mechanical robot. And Topo is restricted by your own rules for this CAV.

4. You see, i don't think that is Topo. First of all, Topo protects Atlantis, is actually considerably bigger than that, and lastly, Aquaman went into a six month Coma after controlling Topo to do his bidding. (i didn't list the fact that wiki doesn't list that issue as a Topo appearance, since Wikis are not a reliable source.)

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1. Proof of coma 2. Topo is easily half the size of Atlantis capable of cruhing submarines with his tentacles.

But, fair is fair, be it Topo or not, they are clearly the same species and i won't use it in this battle. Not that it was my point, i was merely showcasing his summons. Most important of which were the Squids.

There are like two squids in the scan and yet they're somehow restraining Hercules with ease. Aquaman would need a lot more tentacled creatures to accomplish the same with Thor and even then that might not be possible.

I don't need Thor restrained to win this one, all Arthur needs is a moment of distraction nothing else. Also, once more, those squids have obvious super strength feats. Aquaman is in thousands of tons range. Hercules was stronger. 2 squids held Hercules. Obviously they were not normal squids. and, true, Thor would need but a swing of a hand to dispatch both of them. But that is a swing not used to defend himself from Aquaman.

Holding Back:

You'd need to find another scan to prove your point than this one as that's from What If? Civil War. And lately, Thor has held back a lot less against his mortal enemies as of late. He probably won't kill Aquaman but his morals are not as strict when it comes to fighting mortals recently.

I used that one because it is the most popular one. Anyhow, even What Ifs still use same characters with same characteristics. But if you want more proof, no problem (keep in mind i am not a Thor expert, so if any of these are inapplicable feel free to correct me) :

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Rule of three was it?

Now, these are statements, but it has been proven in battle also.

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Clear showing, first strike was strong, but not nearly all the power he held, when noticed his enemy was not hurt he decided to strike harder and he did.

Healing Factor:

So this is your strategy to make up the durability gap, interesting choice. I guess Aquaman's healing in proximity to water does get overlooked sometimes.

Thanks, i expected it to surprise you. :D

I won't dispute this happening a few times perhaps, but given Thor's much bigger striking advantage, Aquaman will have to keep falling back on this tactic due to the damage he will keep receiving from Thor whereas Thor can survive damage and carry on fighting far more effectively than Aquaman will.

A few times? Well, keeping in mind Aquaman holds the speed edge here he will be the one landing more hits than receiving. It is debatable if Thor will get any licks in. He won't keep falling back since in a continuous battle Thor's injuries will accumulate (if the first one doesn't drop him) while Arthur will heal.

He can stop Aquaman from reaching the water with a hammer throw like how he nailed Namor mid-air (thus showing he can tag Aquaman mid leap with Mjolnr). Alternatively, Thor can fly Arthur out the water to deprive him of his environmental advantage and if Aquaman tried to use the water to his advantage, Thor would be more pressed to end the fight quickly. See scans below for how Thor might use his tactics for Namor against Aquaman.

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Interestingly enough though, your scans of Thor fighting Namor don't actually show Thor using such tactics. In these scans he, not only fights in water, but does so twice (on two separate occasions) and even when he flew Namor out of water he just threw him back down. You are not showing Thor actually depriving Namor of water.

And your first scan was an unsuspecting Namor, and Thor didn't do it with intention of not allowing Namor to go to water.

How the fight will go

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Aquaman holds a speed edge in this fight, and Thor likes brawling and holds back until he realizes he is in actual danger, which would be far too late in this battle. Pure logic demands for the faster one to get more strikes in and i have shown Aquaman to be able to both Withstand and completely Heal from Thor's attacks.

In the scan i have shown Chulain has outsped Thor by a wide margin calling him as slow as clouds and pierced him with his spear, much like this battle would go. And let's get this straight Chulain hasn't shown any impressive speed feats, in fact, he was stomped by 2 of the warrior's three moments after this. But Thor couldn't even put up a fight due to his lack of combat speed.

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That is the problem with sharp weapons against Thor. He can rely on his durability against enemies like Superman, but against someone capable of gutting him he is in trouble. And no, he didn't shrug the stab off in fact he was on the ground dying from it.

Aquaman is faster in combat and has a myriad of ways to distract Thor if his speed advantage doesn't prove enough to take him down.

Now, in this battle Thor might use his signature bullrush to take the fight to Aquaman in water. But keeping in mind Thor holds back not to kill and healing factor Aquaman would not be affected by that attack and Thor would go into Arthur's domain, where Arthur is a lot faster and has a lot of help and Thor would be even slower due to water friction.

Don't forget, we are in character for this fight. Realistically, Thor holds back and likes to brawl. Against a faster opponent capable of gutting you (like a fish, lol) that is not a smart way to fight.

Overall, I maintain Thor's greater strength, striking power and durability are enough to constitute the raw power edge Thor still holds Aquaman even without his weather powers against Aquaman's home field advantage and piercing weapon.

I maintain Speed, Ability to hurt the opponent and Healing Factor.

Thor can withstand Aquaman's assault more effectively than Aquaman can survive what Thor is capable of dishing out.

This is simply not true. Thor would get pierced by Aquaman and be injured while Aquaman would heal from any damage Thor would deal in character. Not to mention, with the speed advantage, it is debatable if Arthur will take ANY damage in this battle.

For The Voters

1. I ask you to leave your expectations behind and focus on what is shown in the debate.

2. Even the strongest Thor fans know Thor holds back a lot, i believe i have proven it to be true, i also believe i have shown Aquaman going for the stab/kill as soon as the battle opens. This advantage is huge and we all know it.

3. Speed advantage on ComicVine usually consists of mach speeds in difference, but this fight is closer to real life differences, even with that in mind Aquaman is significantly faster than Thor (especially in water) and that should warrant landing hits more often than receiving them, and i believe i have shown that his trident can really do a number on Thor.

4. Sea creatures - As i've said multiple times throughout the debate with his trident and speed advantage he needs but a moment of opening from Thor to land a winning blow and some of the hugeass creatures he can summon are good enough for that.

5. He has focused on physical strength, which is to be expected when debating for Thor, but the value of strength in this debate is negligible since it will be resolved by the trident.

6. Damage advantage - I have shown Aquaman being able to tank hits from Martian Manhunter, continent busting attacks and even healing instantly from gravest of wounds. That would mean Aquaman would suffer little damage from Thor while, at the same time accumulating damage done to his enemy.

Your turn :D

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#30 Posted by TheSaiyanMan (1745 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v.

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#31 Posted by Lvenger (36335 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Good job, I'll work on getting a response up tomorrow.

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#32 Posted by MetalJimmor (6158 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for voting. This is a really good debate so far and is quite pleasant to read!

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#33 Edited by Lvenger (36335 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

It seems I'll need to establish some things about my post as well. I know your intent was to show how Aquaman was capable of physically hanging with the likes of Thor for the sake of debating purposes so that was established in making my previous post. It's just that whilst it's self-evident Thor is physically superior to Aquaman, it would do me no good in a CAV to rest on my laurels without proving it. As for speed, I'm never one to shy away from the massive deficit Thor has in this department given my reputation on this subject. My side of the debate is to argue why Thor's physical superiority is too much for Aquaman to contend with even with the danger posed by the trident. That's what each of us are arguing interpretation wise.

Anyway onto the debate!

Round 2

Strength

Ok, you have shown Thor to be stronger, but that actually changes nothing, hell, everyone already knows that. I have proven Aquaman is strong enough to defend himself as he did against numerous opponents who are as strong (if not stronger than Thor- like MMH). Doesn't matter at all if he would lose or win in H2H against Martian Manhunter or Diana, all that matters is that he has shown his strength to be in the ballpark enough to shortly match them. Which proves his ability to do so here. He would be able to defend himself from Mjolnir using his trident and that is all i need as this is the battle of weapons.

I wholly disagree, it still does count for something under these circumstances. Aquaman may have shown his strength to be in the ballpark but there's a difference between being in the ballpark and throwing a fast enough pitch to strike out the best batter. Lame metaphor but my point is that Thor swings harder than Aquaman can pitch against. The same tactic applies vice versa as I have already pointed out to Thor's ability to block Aquaman's trident. Which can then be followed up by a serious strike Thor can use to put Aquaman down for the count. I'll cut to the chase and just lay out some of Thor's most impressive striking feats which emphasise why Aquaman would find himself outclassed in direct combat.

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  • 1-2: One shots an asteroid the size of a mountain (Astonishing Thor #5 I believe.)
  • 3-4: One shots Angrir, an amped Thing who was capable of overpowering Rulk, a fellow continental tier brick like Aquaman. Yet Thor mortally wounded him just by summoning Mjolnir to go through him like a hot knife through butter (Fear Itself #5)
  • 5: The infamous Thor vs Gorr fight where Thor hits Gorr hard enough to majorly crack the planet they were fighting on and somehow cause damage to a nearby moon. Granted Thor was exerting himself as hard as he could against a superior foe, something he won't be doing against Aquaman but it's one of his best striking feats nonetheless and puts Aquaman's continental feat to shame (Thor: God of Thunder #9)
  • 6: Obliterates a mountain chunk that would have flattened the citadel the heroes were situated in on Battleworld, itself stated to be the size of Chicago. Essentially Thor one shotted a city sized piece of debris (Secret Wars #3)

Your rebuttal will undoubtedly centre around how Thor doesn't use this striking power on mortals but here's the thing; he doesn't need to hit Aquaman this hard. Thor can just use an appropriate amount of force that won't result in Aquaman's death but will seriously damage, if not incapacitate him, thus putting a damper on your water healing strategy for Aquaman to recover from Thor's blows.

The Superman Feat

In all of scans you have shown he was ready to take a blow. Here he was not. That explains the difference in showings. What you failed to explain is what actually happened in the said feat. I mean, if you believe i misinterpreted it it would be expected of you to have your own interpretation of it and to be willing to share it with the class?

That's what I was going to move onto discuss, since this point clearly works against you rather than for you. Aquaman got a sucker punch in on Superman when he wasn't expecting it. The reason why his blow was so effective was because he caught Superman off guard, not just because of Aquaman's striking power alone. His attack on Wonder Woman when she expected it later on did not put her down and she was able to retaliate. I shall provide an interpretation next but my intention previously was to demonstrate why your presentation of this feat was misguided in relation to the blunt force Superman has withstood when he expected to be attacked against far more powerful beings than Aquaman.

Let's just review what happened from the punch to the return.

Aquaman's punch sends him flying-> Wonder Woman and Aquaman fight and talk for 2 pages -> Orm Knocks out Batman -> Orm and Aquaman talk -> Wonder Woman sneaks up on Orm and chokeholds him-> Orm holds an other monologue ->Armies of Atlantis emerge and shoot Wonder Woman off of Orm's back.-> Battle on surface is erupting -> Superman Returns.

Worth to note, between Superman being punched and him coming back there was 300 words of dialogue (i counted). All of this gives us a timeframe of at least 1-2 minutes.

The only area I feel would need a counter interpretation is the events prior to this. The Trinity were still trying to reason with Arthur before he tried attacking them. Well Superman and Wonder Woman were even after Batman threw the phosphorous grenade at Arthur and Orm. The dialogue shows this in the panel right before Aquaman hits Superman away. Anyway, The Trinity try to reason with Aquaman to stop the Atlantean War>Aquaman grabs Batman's neck in an attempt to show aggressive superiority in an Atlantean cultural custom and asks the Trinity to stand down>Batman throws a phosphorous grenade at Aquaman and Orm>Aquaman runs out from the smoke>Aquaman punches an unprepared Superman and sends him flying.

I can show off an analytical dissection this instance down to the nitty gritty details but the point of contention is whether the punch was a valid attack against Superman, of which I do not believe it was.

So, if you punch someone so hard it takes him 2 minutes to punch back, what would you call it? What is your explanation to what happened in that feat? Because i see 3 options.

1. Punch hurt Superman enough to knock him out. daze him or slow him down for 2 minutes.

2. Punch sent him flying so far it took him a minute or two to come back

3. Superman went for some tea and cookies in the middle of the attack.

I don't mind countering my feats, but it only works if you offer a different explanation.

As I have said previously, I find it more likely that Aquaman's sucker punch sent Superman flying far enough that it took him a few minutes to get back to the action, that was my stance on this rather than Aquaman's punch being capable of knocking Superman out. Also, my counter still worked in rebutting why Aquaman's punch on Superman wasn't as effective as you had presented since that relies on the interpretation that Aquaman can hit hard enough to KO Superman, to which there is evidence to the contrary.

Durability

Given the fact Aquaman has easily pierced Darkseid with his trident i don't see Thor's durability taking that stab. Even Superman level characters have only been able to damage Darkseid's eyes, and Aquaman is the only one who actually managed to pierce both his armor and his body in combat.

You show Thor not being pierced by Wolverine's claws, which is impressive, but keep in mind the difference in strength between Wolverine and Aquaman. The amount of force behind the stab will be significant and it will pierce Thor.

Of course what the trident did to Darkseid cannot be overlooked in its piercing abilities and I see you've chosen the appropriate Chulain image as an example of how the fight will go. However, relying on one example for your interpretation of the 'Aquaman runs Thor through' strategy is not entirely a good enough representative. am of course aware of the strength difference between Wolverine and Aquaman but even then the force of the stab might not necessarily be good enough to put Thor down for the absolute count whereas the reverse with Thor's Mjolnir blows is not the case. I was expecting the trident to be the main point (sorry bad pun is bad) in discussing durability and took to researching opposing evidence for this claim. These examples show how Thor has survived and continued fighting against deadly effective piercing damage.

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  • 1-3: Fights through Gorr's necrosword piercing his flesh and burrowing into his skin whilst slugging Gorr with planetary force, continues swinging his hammer even after Gorr stabs him through the chest with a necro formed spear and is still able to fight Gorr even with a fragment of the necro sword in his chest (Thor: God of Thunder #9
  • 4: Gets gored by the Minotaur, who Thor compared to the Hulk in strength and savagery and yet moments afterwards bullrushes both him and Ulik into a gas station (Thor: God of Thunder #23)
  • 5: Takes a slash to the chest from Jarnbojorn wielded by one of the Apocalypse Twins.
  • 6: Carries on fighting after Malekith magically turns his liver into glass (Thor: God of Thunder #17)

You assert Aquaman has the force to keep Thor down yet he was still able to fight against Gorr with his stab wounds, who was able to fight and defeat 3 Thors at once, including an Odin powered Old King Thor. Moreover, accounting for what you said earlier about how Aquaman will stab Thor in a non lethal way, the sixth scan has Thor have one of his vital organs transmuted to glass and he's still able to fight back and overpower Malekith in a single blow. Though Aquaman is physically superior to Malekith, he needs to keep Thor down for good when he stabs him and that's not a definite possibility by any means.

It's clear why the trident is the main point in the alternate side of the debate given that Thor's blunt force durability is too much for Aquaman to tax. The only feat needed to solidify this claim is Thor surviving a blow from Death Seed Sentry whose impact is felt around the entire alien world they fought on (Uncanny Avengers Vol 1#10

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Speed

All i was going for is a slight speed advantage. I am not trying to argue Aquaman to be faster than Cheetah, that is the reason the feat wasn't showcased like the others, it was merely mentioned. I mean, she is confirmed to be MFTL outside of water, i doubt she is peak human or slower in it.

I'm not sure her speed was MFTL but blitzing Flash twice is undoubtedly an impressive showing of speed on Cheetah's part. Keep in mind Cheetah was disorientated and it was all part of the plan Aquaman proposed to capture Cheetah in the first place. It's more of a strategic planning feat for Aquaman than it could ever be a speed feat.

Look, my point is that he is faster than Thor. This fight will become close quarters combat between a mallet and a trident. And Aquaman holds a solid speed advantage.

A mallet that can dish out incredible levels of force just as Aquaman's trident can pierce extremely tough substances. Both are a danger to the other and both of us are arguing these characters can survive each other's best attacks.

Let's imagine they are both Human and not Superheroes, Speed difference between them is such that it would accurately be represented by a normal human fighting a fast human in real world.

It would basically look like the fight between The Mountain and Oberyn from Game of Thrones except Arthur wouldn't gloat over Thor and let him pop his head like a zit.

Or maybe the actor who played mountain (conveniently nicknamed "Thor") vs Connor McGregor ---- Just imagine if McGregor had a knife in that battle (a tool that can bypass durability) and you get an accurate depiction of our battle. More on later.

Ah I know a friend who loves doing this kind of comparison in debating comic book characters, he'd appreciate this. Anyway, you'd be better off trying to stick with the The Mountain vs Oberyn comparison because the Connor McGregor instance clearly shows McGregor being on the evasive against the Mountain actor's much greater size. He was using hit and run tactics because without them, the size and strength of the guy would be too much for McGregor to handle.

This is where the comparison to human fighters starts falling a bit flat because whereas a knife stab wound would be enough to seriously incapacitate a regular human, these characters can withstand getting pierced by far sharper and more deadly bladed weaponry as I have shown for Thor. So here the comparison falls flat as Thor's pain tolerance has allowed him to survive pierced damage. Moreover, the physical gap between The Mountain and Oberyn was crystal clear as well same as it is with Thor vs Aquaman.

Aquatic Telepathy

1. Most of them i have already shown in different scans, they are not really weird creatures. The point was not to showcase those animals, but to showcase his abilities.

2. Aquaman is confirmed to be hypersonic in water. If/When the battle came to water it would take him but a moment to get Thor deep enough.

3. The idea was not to hurt Thor, but to distract him so he can be stabbed. And a giant ass shark is a good distraction.

  1. Fair enough but there is no guarantee Aquaman can summon any weirdly powerful aquatic creatures to help him outside of one who is restricted.
  2. Indeed that is true but in putting himself so close to Thor, he risks taking a direct strike like what Thor does to Hyperion after getting blitzed by him.
  3. Possibly although it will not distract Thor for long.

4. You see, i don't think that is Topo. First of all, Topo protects Atlantis, is actually considerably bigger than that, and lastly, Aquaman went into a six month Coma after controlling Topo to do his bidding. (i didn't list the fact that wiki doesn't list that issue as a Topo appearance, since Wikis are not a reliable source.)

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1. Proof of coma 2. Topo is easily half the size of Atlantis capable of cruhing submarines with his tentacles.

To nitpick at this example, allow me to compare Topo's appearance with the creature in that scan.

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The mouth, tentacles and shape do seem rather similar is all I will say. I had similar discussions with some Aquaman fans on a New 52 Superman vs Aquaman thread and they claim Aquaman can summon Topo much more easily than the first time he summoned him.

I don't need Thor restrained to win this one, all Arthur needs is a moment of distraction nothing else. Also, once more, those squids have obvious super strength feats. Aquaman is in thousands of tons range. Hercules was stronger. 2 squids held Hercules. Obviously they were not normal squids. and, true, Thor would need but a swing of a hand to dispatch both of them. But that is a swing not used to defend himself from Aquaman.

Even a moment's distraction is a stretch against Thor even with these squids supposedly having superstrength. A swing of the hand is one that isn't used against Aquaman but Thor has more than one way of attacking his enemies and he doesn't need his hammer to get rid of the squids whilst he uses Mjolnir against Aquaman.

Holding Back

I used that one because it is the most popular one. Anyhow, even What Ifs still use same characters with same characteristics. But if you want more proof, no problem (keep in mind i am not a Thor expert, so if any of these are inapplicable feel free to correct me) :

Ehh the second one is probably non-canon but I'm not going to give you grief about it, the point is there and made clearly even though its canocity doesn't count. I cannot disagree that Thor doesn't hold back against mortals, only that he won't hold back extensively against Aquaman as he chooses to fight against Namor.

Now, these are statements, but it has been proven in battle also.

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Clear showing, first strike was strong, but not nearly all the power he held, when noticed his enemy was not hurt he decided to strike harder and he did.

It has but the funny thing is I would use this evidence in support of Thor becoming willing to let loose his greater might against Aquaman. Once he sees Aquaman as a more powerful Namor in essence, Thor would see fit to use an appropriate amount of force as he does against other powerful mortals such as Hulk or Sentry.

Healing Factor/Stamina

A few times? Well, keeping in mind Aquaman holds the speed edge here he will be the one landing more hits than receiving. It is debatable if Thor will get any licks in. He won't keep falling back since in a continuous battle Thor's injuries will accumulate (if the first one doesn't drop him) while Arthur will heal.

True but the hits he will receive from Thor will be far more damaging to him. I don't see it as debatable because the speed edge is a slight one as you admit and Aquaman also chooses to brawl with his enemies up close as he has done against Black Manta, Ocean Master and the Dead King amongst others. The thing is a continuous battle is actually likely to favour Thor as I will demonstrate now. You see, Aquaman's edge is in recovering from the damage he receives like a rechargeable battery whereas Thor is more like a Duracell battery, he'll keep going on and on until the battle is over. Thor's stamina feats are much more impressive

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  1. Fights Mephisto's legions for hours.
  2. Fights the hordes of Hel for 40 days.
  3. Fights a massive troll army for 40 days with Loki and Volstagg and then fights alone for another 40 days without food, water or possibly rest.

In contrast, Aquaman agreed with Mera's statement on outlasting Martian Manhunter in combat.

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Your argument is essentially what Boros was bragging to Saitama about and we all know how that turned out ;)

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Interestingly enough though, your scans of Thor fighting Namor don't actually show Thor using such tactics. In these scans he, not only fights in water, but does so twice (on two separate occasions) and even when he flew Namor out of water he just threw him back down. You are not showing Thor actually depriving Namor of water.

And your first scan was an unsuspecting Namor, and Thor didn't do it with intention of not allowing Namor to go to water.

True he does, Thor can keep fighting in the water as well, there are fights where he does so. But I do not agree with your claim that my scans do not show Thor depriving of water, the second image is definitive proof of this. Here Thor flies Namor out of the water and throws him at Atlantis. Replace this with Thor throwing Aquaman out of the water onto the island and the point still stands.

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Fair point on the first scan being an unsuspecting Namor though.

How the fight will go

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You chose the appropriate Chulain image as your example of how you believe the fight will go so I'll go with the end result of Thor and Namor's earliest battles. Even a hydrated Namor couldn't stand up to Thor's superior striking power and I maintain the same will be the case even with the more powerful Aquaman. Aquaman could get more hits in but Thor's hits will be the most painful and consistently the most effective on Aquaman. Aquaman needs the trident to take Thor down a notch but Thor can inflict painful damage on Aquaman with his hammer or his fists. There is also a distinct possibility that Thor's hits will stun or temporarily incapacitate Aquaman long enough for Thor to put him down before he can make his way back to the water. What happened with Chulain is one example of Thor's ability to be harmed by piercing weapons but there is contrary evidence where Thor can rely on his durability against sharp weaponry.

Thor can also take to the skies and throw Mjolnir at Aquaman from afar if the trident poses the problem it can be capable of inflicting on opponents so Thor has range and height in this battle compared to Aquaman's environmental advantage. Aquaman can't fly either so a leap into the water to replenish his strength could be interrupted by one of Thor's bullrushes.

Thor's tendency to brawl in character is clearly a shortcoming in fights against more powerful, faster and versatile opponents. In this battle though, Thor is powerful enough to land a strong blow on Aquaman to throw him for a loop, if not separate Aquaman from his trident in the process as well. And without the trident, Aquaman's chances of beating Thor drop even lower.

Lastly, whilst Thor can be injured by the trident, he can continue fighting more effectively than Aquaman could from taking a direct hit from Mjolnir. Aquaman would need water to recover whereas Thor can finish the fight even with possible stab wounds.

Post Summary

  • Thor does hold back more than he may need to in a fight but he won't be treating Aquaman as some friendly sparring partner either. Whilst Aquaman may go for a finishing blow sooner, he needs to actually land one in order to win quickly and Thor's durability, pain tolerance and ability to block weapon swings mean this would be more difficult for Aquaman than normal.
  • Although Aquaman has the combat speed and reaction advantage, Mjolnir's raw travel speed makes it more effective for bullrushing against opponents. This means Aquaman's retreat to the water and heal strategy can be hampered when Thor sees he's fighting someone similar to Namor.
  • Thor's endurance and superior stamina give him a huge advantage if this turns into a battle of attrition as Aquaman cannot hope to outlast Thor in prolonged combat. He requires a quick win whereas Thor can win at any time in the fight.
  • Strength is still a significant factor in contributing to who would take victory here. Thor will always hold this over Aquaman's head whether it be in a hand to hand brawl or against the sea creatures Aquaman can summon to his aid. Such a physical advantage is huge enough that Aquaman's sea creatures and own physical prowess will not be enough against Thor's heavy hitter status. Only Topo would fit into my opponent's strategy as effectively as he claims and Topo is not here.
  • Damage output is not unfairly balanced either, Thor can also survive attacks from beings more powerful than Aquaman's continental level feat such as Hulk and Death Seed Sentry. Just as Aquaman's trident would be painful for Thor, so too would Thor's blows and throws with Mjolnir be most painful for Aquaman. Thor has the edge in either interrupting Aquaman's trident attacks and in continuing to fight through pain over Aquaman, something Aquaman still needs to be shown capable of accounting for.

Your turn @chimeroid

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#35 Posted by TheNaughtyTitan (10001 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me.

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#36 Posted by Bullet_to_the_Head (4310 posts) - - Show Bio

Good luck you two. I think this is going to be fun. However please don't tagg for votes. Actually I never read CaV where Lvenger debates. I could learn something. So T4V please.

What?

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#37 Edited by GIliad_ (6638 posts) - - Show Bio

@bullet_to_the_head: Maybe it means, actually you know what I will actually be tagged here???

T4V

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#39 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Nice reply. I just have to, once more, debunk the "destroying nearby moon" vs Gorr feat. Damage was actually done by king Thor's Godblast.

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1. Godblast doing damage to the moon by blasting Gorr to it 2. Crack shown, and is widening 3. Young Thor moves the battle to a different planet via portal.

For some reason Thor supporters refuse to let go of that feat no matter how many times it gets debunked, and no matter how ridiculous it is to claim that punch on one planet can carry to a moon and destroy the surface.

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#40 Edited by AcroKat (7384 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V. I used to think Aquaman would get completely stomped by Thor...

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#41 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@acrokat: I hope i managed to change your mind. Win or lose i am sure i have been representing Aquaman well enough for people to see this is a rather fair fight. :D

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#42 Edited by RedNinja (103 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#44 Posted by TDK_1997 (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me.

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#45 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

Round 2

I was thinking, i do this one, we do closers and open for votes if that is ok with you?

I will jumble it up this time, first will go with some relevant ideas, and then i will return to stat debate.

Thor getting stabbed, and the actual effects.

You made an interesting argument showing Thor getting stabbed by his foes and fighting on. Unfortunately, your scans don't tell the entire story, i would like to show what actually happened to Thor when he got stabbed. Yes, you have him standing, but that didn't actually last in those appearances.

Thor vs Gorr:

Let's open with the famous fight against Gorr, in Thor: God of Thunder #9. Scans you have shown. Are in pages 16-17, after that Thor attempts to bullrush Gorr into the sun as the last ditch effort:

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And, next time we see Thor again:

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Seems like it had "some" effect on Thor.

Thor vs Dario Agger

Next, you used the instance where Minotaur "scratched his back" in Thor: God of Thunder #23 page 14 but, let's take a quick glance at next panel we see Thor in - page 16, why don't we.

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It's true, though, he managed to push through that damage and beat his enemies. But, you can't claim he is capable of ignoring damage like this or worse, if Minotaur wanted to kill him instead of talk to Ulik they could have. Not to mention he got run through simply by brute strength, horns are not magical the creature is just strong. And yes, Thor said it is as strong as the Hulk, but nothing really to prove that claim since Thor manhandled it except when getting attacked from behind.

Thor vs Eimin

Taken from Uncanny Avengers #17. This one is easier. The blow didn't actually hit him properly and he was not cut at all. I will provide a scan i will use twofold. Happens right after she lands that hit, but not a cut.

1. To prove her blow didn't actually cut him. Which can be seen by the fact his clothes are not cut/destroyed

2. To show that he doesn't have a healing factor needed to survive a prolonged stab fight since he burned his arm a couple of issues ago here and the injury persisted until the end of the Arc.

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Not to mention no blood was shown in your scan, or any other injury, and this run really doesn't shy away from showing gory moments.

Also, to add to the strength of my case, i would like to point out that Captain America was going toe to toe with Eimin just a bit earlier, and he actually won by BFR.

Thor vs Malekith

For your last scan you decided to go with the famous scan of Malekith destroying Thor's liver. Interesting feat. But irrelevant here. Why? Well, because even humans can live without a liver for a while. Liver is there to take out toxins and you will survive as long as those toxins don't get you. And Thor is not human. He is a god. His organism is clearly different, since he was able to spit pieces of his liver at Malekith, which proves weird connection to his esophagus or something. Either way, losing a liver is not instant death to regular humans. In fact, a paper was published back in 2000. about the effects of getting shot into the liver and only 8% of people died due to the liver damage, of which 7% died because of bleeding out and only 1% from actual liver death.

And Thor is a god. He is immune to poisons and toxins.

Malekith simply chose the wrong organ.

Point about him getting stabbed.

Even though he has the ability to survive it he was instantly dropped in almost all of the instances where it happens, even when he is stabbed by smaller objects or wounds are a lot smaller.

Let's showcase it for a bit. Worth to note, how he got stabbed is irrelevant for instance, there is context behind Rhino piercing him, but that is not what i am showcasing. My point is in the effect AFTER getting stabbed.

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1. TAS 683 Stabbed by Rhino. He was out for the remainder of the run 2. 3. Thor 331 Getting stabbed by Crusader, out until Odin healed him 4. Astonishing X-men 68 - Stabbed by Mystique using Iceman's icicle, out for a couple of minutes or so 5. Uncanny - Shallow wounds by Uriel, down on his knees.

Based both on scans you have shown us, and the scans i have, it is safe to say i have proven he might lose after the first stab, and even if he does not, he will drop to his knees, opening himself for a myriad of different attacks.

Lasting in battle:

Enemies Thor fought in that battle are basically fodder to him. The only thing he has proven is that he doesn't tire as he is a god. I, on the other hand have proven stab wounds to have great effect on Thor consistently throughout his history, time and time again.

On the other hand, you keep stressing the fact that Arthur admitted he can't outlast MMH in combat. Which really isn't applicable to this fight for one simple reason - New 52 MMH is immune to physical harm.

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1. Ignoring the fact Despero destroyed half his torso 2. Showcasing how he can't be injured

That is the big difference. OFC, Aquaman can't beat someone he can't actually stab. That makes sense.

Holding Back:

Once he sees Aquaman as a more powerful Namor in essence, Thor would see fit to use an appropriate amount of force as he does against other powerful mortals such as Hulk or Sentry.

Yet, he still never went for the kill against Hulk or fought smart enough to easily beat him. That is his character. And as i said, Aquaman will heal up from the damage sustained by Thor.

I mean, the worst damage you have shown us is Thor hurting the Thing while it was one of Serpent's Worthy (Angrir) during Fear Itself, you also said he was amped, which is not necessarily the case the only "amp" is having the weapon, there is no power increase in correlation to this arc. As we have seen by Captain taking on one of the worthies.. And I have shown Aquaman heal from greater wounds than that in a matter of moments.

And Thor was only willing to do that kind of damage only because it was literally the end of the world scenario where he expected himself to die in the fight against the Serpent.

Superman Striking Feat:

As I have said previously, I find it more likely that Aquaman's sucker punch sent Superman flying far enough that it took him a few minutes to get back to the action,

Ok, let's go with that interpretation. It doesn't explain why Superman would be unable to follow what is going on, since he should still be able to hear/see with his super senses, but let's go with sent him flying far enough it takes SUPERMAN a couple of minutes to come back.

That would mean the punch sent him at least 150 MILES away. And that is a conservative estimate keeping in mind how fast Superman can go. This is the distance an existing, real world jet can pass in 2 minutes or less and Superman should be a LOT faster than that.

So, that still gives his punches a lot of credibility.

Newest Arthur's Striking Feat:

Since our debate started some new chapters have been issued, and it wouldn't be fair to poor ol' Aquaman if i didn't utilize it a bit.

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Now we have a feat of him knocking out someone who just tanked Superman hitting him and smashed Clark into the ground. Proving, once more, that, when push comes to shove, he is deserving of his top tier status.

Your Feats of Thor Blocking Attacks:

Couldn't think of a better name for this part. But, you claim, and it is a big claim, that Thor can simply catch Aquaman's trident mid swing, like he did with Wrecker's crowbar or Bor's attack. But, there is countering to be done

First of all, Wrecker is not fast, he is a typical brick with no real super speed. Especially not at Aquaman's level. Also, blocking a wide overhead swing is easy. A lot easier than blocking a stab. And both your scans are wide overhead swings.

Secondly, during fight with Bor it was actually Odin Force Thor. Amped and stuff. And, once more, Bor didn't show any real speed feats either.

Furthermore, your feats don't really counter my feats of Thor being stabbed time and time again.

Back to Stats:

Strength vs Durability:

I have already debunked the idea of Thor cracking a nearby moon in combat time and time again in these forums, yet, it persists:

Damage was actually done by king Thor's Godblast.

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1. Godblast doing damage to the moon by blasting Gorr to it 2. Crack shown, and is widening 3. Young Thor moves the battle to a different planet via portal.

Next up, you have shown us Thor destroying a mountain sized asteroid, but Mountain strength is not actually enough to take out Aquaman as we have seen when Hercules, unable of breaking out of Aquaman's grip decides to destroy the mountain behind them by smashing Aquaman into it, proving he has strength for similar feats to that one, yet Aquaman took that one and quite a bit of attacks from him, and ended up defeating him:

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Your rebuttal will undoubtedly centre around how Thor doesn't use this striking power on mortals but here's the thing; he doesn't need to hit Aquaman this hard. Thor can just use an appropriate amount of force that won't result in Aquaman's death but will seriously damage, if not incapacitate him, thus putting a damper on your water healing strategy for Aquaman to recover from Thor's blows.

Actually, no, i have already proven Aquaman being able to survive all of those attacks and remain standing. He survived hits and blasts from Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman and even a continental attack from Dead King, he would survive blasts from Thor as well. And his healing strategy would work just fine since we both know Thor would be more than willing to jump into water to fight him since Thor is always the one on the offensive.

Speed:

We have pretty much established Aquaman to be faster in combat by a small margin. And i have shown Thor topple after being stabbed in seven different occasions.

My point is this. When you have two characters fighting and one is clearly (even though not a lot) faster than the other we can easily conclude which one will get the first effective hit in. Which one will be the first one to get through defensive movements of his opponent. And that one is Aquaman.

The scans with Chulain prove that point strongly. Chulain had no durability at all, no super strength he could boast. All he had was a slight speed advantage and a spear capable of piercing Thor.

Chulain was literally Aquaman only a lot weaker yer he beat Thor with ease.

And that was more than enough to put Thor down, hell, it would even kill Thor if he didn't get the apple. Same with scans of his fight vs Crusader, a weapon that can pierce Thor and slight speed advantage in combat and BOOM Thor is down for the count.

My analogies illustrate that point perfectly.

Aquatic Telepathy:

Even a moment's distraction is a stretch against Thor even with these squids supposedly having superstrength. A swing of the hand is one that isn't used against Aquaman but Thor has more than one way of attacking his enemies and he doesn't need his hammer to get rid of the squids whilst he uses Mjolnir against Aquaman.

I really doubt a moment of distraction is a stretch. It is still giant squids coming from behind him to catch him. And if only 2 were enough to hold down Hercules, who was clearly a bit stronger than Aquaman who, in turn is in thousands of tons of strength tier. 4 or 5 would definitely be enough to at least distract Thor. Make him look away for a moment. Fail to defend from an attack extra and so on. But, i honestly believe 4 or 5 could actually slow him down for a couple of moments.

And of course, if you want distraction, you can always go with big and colorful. Btw, the reason i am stressing squids so much is because apart from Sharks and Orcas (and restricted Topo) only they have feats.

Now:

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This would definitely distract Thor. I wasn't using it because it lacks combat feats. But as a distraction it is more than perfect. Big, colorful, kinda scary.

That Thor vs Namor fight:

First of all, as i have shown, Thor has battled Namor in water, even when it was not in his favor in fact, in the fight where you claim Thor deprived Namor of water literally the opposite stands.

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The fight started out in the open and Thor literally pushed Namor to the sea and proceeded getting his ass handed to him. Only when that happened did he decide to get out of water. And when he did that, he didn't do anything strategically genius, he just threw Namor back down.

What is incredibly important here is the fact that Namor was unarmed. IF you want to illustrate that Aquaman vs Thor is same as Namor vs Thor just imagine if all the punches he took from Namor here are actually trident stabs that would put him down, as i have proven 7 times in this post already.

Don't get me wrong, i am fully aware of Thor being above Namor, but that doesn't put him above Aquaman as well.

How the fight will go:

Let's face it, Thor is more likely than Aquaman to be the one to rush to battle, the one to attack. And he would do so here as well. Aquaman doesn't have to think up any weird scheme to get Thor to water, Thor would come himself.Your scans against Namor prove that point diligently.

Hell, Thor is so much Brawn over brain that even Hulk got him to drop the Mjolnir to fight without it. I doubt he would have a second thought about rushing into the water to fight Aquaman. And, in water, Aquaman has all the advantages he needs.

Your main claim here is that Thor can simply ignore being stabbed better than Aquaman can heal from Thor's strikes. I have proven that to be false. Aquaman has healed almost instantly from injuries that were more serious than the hole Thor put into the Thing and Thor has consistently been dropped by piercing damage time and time again. Not to mention fighting through the damage < Healing from damage

Even though he could ignore the pain and push on, damage would stack and make him weaker, while i have shown Arthur not only heals in water, but also replenishes his strength instantly.

This would not be a long fight. Thor holding back would mean that Aquaman wouldn't get killed by being caught off guard by some random attack from Thor. And by the time Thor started to fight seriously Aquaman would already have a big lead over him damage wise.

But even without Thor holding back, i believe i have shown more than enough to say Aquaman can go toe to toe with serious Thor (as long as thor doesn't use his energy projection, which we have, restricted for this CaV) and that he is definitely able to put him down.

For the Voters:

In this round i have made some strong points and countered some of his, What i want you to do when voting is consider all of these before you put in a vote.:

1. I have proven Thor can't ignore getting stabbed. For that i have used 7 different instances that span through 30 years of Thor publishing

2. I have proven Thor doesn't use his strategical mind often enough, especially against Namor which he apparently tried to drown

3. He claims Thor's bullrush is what would stop Aquaman from going into the water, when, in fact, it is what would bring Thor into the water, keeping in mind his temper.

4. I have proven Thor won't go for the kill with the first blow, so even if he does bullrush Aquaman off the bat it won't be lethal to him and Thor would find himself at a disadvantage

5. Speed advantage Aquaman holds (best illustrated by Oberyn vs Mountain fight) is big enough to warrant Aquaman getting the first shot in, and being the one to get more shots in, in general

6. Tactical usage of Marine Life would also provide big help to Arthur, both by temporarily restraining Thor (even for a second) and by distracting him with giant creatures, great sharks, and orcas.

7. He claims Arthur must hope for a fast fight, while Thor can last indefinitely, which is not quite the case, i have shown Aquaman healing and regaining strength instantly while Thor would remain hurt after every stab he receives. In fact, Thor would grow weaker and weaker as Aquaman whittles him down, providing he doesn't drop from the first stab like he did against Chulain, Rhino, the Crusader or even Mystique.

8. He claims i didn't show Aquaman fight through pain, which is kinda not true, i have shown him being stabbed in the gut and then proceeding to tank a continent busting attack and then beat the Dead King.

To remind you ( 1, 2, 3 ) and right after that he defeated his opponent by dragging him into a volcano.

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#46 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Bump. (i dont mind waiting for as long as you need, but you didn't confirm you saw my post so i started thinking you didn't)

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#50 Posted by KeiKrossKira (612 posts) - - Show Bio

Tv4 please. Good job guys.