| Overview: | Android 17 |
|---|---|
| Age: | 17 |
| First Appearance: | DBZ: Chapter 349 |
| Affiliation: | Dr. Gero(Formerly), Universe 7/Z Fighters(Currently) |
| Created By: | Akira Toriyama |
| Powers/Abilities: |
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Now within the world of DB, one of the most vital things that comes to a fight is stamina. This problem has been shown multiple times throughout the series, including the ToP. However, what we have here is a special case. Just like the other Androids(i.e, 18, 16) have shown that they have essentially unlimited stamina/Ki, tho this doesn't obviously translate to limitless power but can abuse the hell out of there Ki Manipulation without no worry of fatigue.
This being said, let's go over some of 17's Ki manipulation and strength feats. Whilst he may not have fancy moves like a kamehameha or final flash he does in fact utilizes his Ki in many ways and is very formidable to say the least.
Above is at this time his most impressive energy showing feat, here he gets into a all classic beam struggle with Toppo and is stalemating him. Now yes Toppo did eventually start to overpower him however only when he went full power against him. This was clear evidence based of what happened prior to the beam struggle.
This was just right before they got into the beam struggle, which was basically stated and even shown Toppo going full power against 17. Remember this was the same Toppo even while in base made MSSB Goku struggle during the exhibition match.
It was implied within the story that full power Toppo could match full power SSB and even potentially go beyond and give blue kaioken a fight. Which would explain why Toppo started to overpower 17 once he went full power.
This should at the very least make 17 SSB Level in ki manipulation/energy projection and should put him above black, since by the time ToP commenced Goku had gotten stronger since he last fought Zamasu.
In terms of raw strength 17 isn't exactly known for being a brawler, this being said it doesn't mean he can't get his hands dirty and he has some pretty decent feats of striking.
Here he is able to stand up to clash with a suppressed Jiren in fists, While he didn't exactly match him it's still a very impressive feat that he was able to perform this, especially since his arm was able to withstand the impact.
A heavily suppressed Jiren was able to easily block SSG Goku's onslaught with his mere finger, which just goes to show how impressive it is for 17 to be capable of clashing against Jiren. But if your still unconvinced there's more.
A rather solid and clear, cut feat. 17 is able to match SSB Goku in a clash, both were holding back in this instance which makes this feat even more impressive. At the very least is above SSG level characters and should be within SSB tiers ballmark of striking.
Durability he is no slouch either, the dude can take a beating from the absolute beasts of DBS and continue fighting shortly after. Here are some examples of this:
Here 17 tanks a direct hit from GoD Toppo and recovers shortly after, impressive considering GoD Toppo prior to this easily one shotted Frieza and after a bullrush knocked him out.
Another very impressive feat, just before Vegeta was about to be hit by an attack intent to KO 17 intervened. As you can see he took a direct kick from Jiren, followed up with a powerful ki blast. Now whilst this did indeed KO 17 for a short period of time he was able to recover and jump back into the fray not that much while after. This should prove 17 can take hits from SSB tiers without too much significant damage.
When it comes to speed 17 is able to hold his own and even keep pace with the very best.
17(alongside Goku and Vegeta) was fighting against Jiren in combat, here he's able to keep pace with his comrades which is particularly impressive considering Jiren at the very start of the ToP was blitzing SSB Goku before he received a zenkai. Think this is enough for now to prove he can at the very least match Black in speed if not outpace him.
A trademark ability to 17s arsenal apart from his stamina, capable of creating green energy barriers. These powers can be used on both defense and offense.
His shields are remarkably durable, capable of withstanding and seemingly holding up to a kamehameha from SSB Goku.
17 can also use these shields as a way of entrapping his opponents inside of them, leaving them helpless unless if they're strong enough to bust out of them. Overall 17s shields should be equal to his level of ki output which clocks at SSB level.
For now I'll say 17 should hold while not a massive but a significant edge against Goku Black in just about everything, alongside his infinite stamina he will be able to wear Black out over time, which in combination of inexhaustible energy he'll be able to overwhelm Black in a similar fashion to how he did against Toppo tho the only difference being Black won't be able to retaliate as he hasn't shown the perception speeds to get out of 17's projectile spam.
TL;DR:
Overall, I'm looking forward to seeing your post Hit.
@hittheassasin Post is up.
I know I'm the underdog in this match, but I'm confident in being able to show both my opponent and the voters why Goku Black would indeed win a clash against his cyborg adversary, and in turn, why, even know, he should be considered among the greatest of Dragonball Super's many warriors.
Instead of the usual layout of presenting feats for each different section, I'm going go right into dressing the reasons my opponent has for thinking Android 17 could defeat the black warrior(as well as his strategy), and address in turn, why each and every one of his points either aren't valid, or simply don't lead to the conclusion he's trying to force. Without, further due let's head directly the exciting match between these 2 incredible martial artists:
The first reason my opponent has for thinking 17 can take the edge over Black in a battle is, just as the title implies, because:
17 holds a significant physical edge over Black
Credit: Chronicplane's Opener
First of all I wish to note that I don't fully disagree in regards to this reason. Interms of raw physicals, I think the 2 characters are almost exact equals, with a slight edge to 17. However, since my opponent claims the edge is significant, it is my job to prove why this simply isn't the case. Now, this point is easily the most vague and overarching one in the entire debate, and to address it, we must go back to the sections where he presents the respective feats that are meant to back up this claim:
Here he is able to stand up to clash with a suppressed Jiren in fists, While he didn't exactly match him it's still a very impressive feat that he was able to perform this, especially since his arm was able to withstand the impact. A heavily suppressed Jiren was able to easily block SSG Goku's onslaught with his mere finger, which just goes to show how impressive it is for 17 to be capable of clashing against Jiren.
Alright, so when looking at this feat, it has a distinct characteristic and purpose: The attempt to establish 17's superior physicals based on feats placing him massively above inferior forms, like Super Saiyan God. In of itself, this approach is quite reasonable, the only issue: Where does this place 17? The answer to that, is anywhere in the range massively above Super Saiyan God Goku. Unfortunately for my opponent, this range is a rather vast one, since SSJG as a form is immensely inferior to SSJB, to the point that characters like base Kefla, who were curb stomping and speed blitzing SSJG Goku all over the place, were matched by SSJB even after they went Super Saiyan themselves. My point: The level of superiority 17 demonstrates over SSJG Goku in this instance isn't enough to say he's really even near Blue in striking strength.
A rather solid and clear, cut feat. 17 is able to match SSB Goku in a clash, both were holding back in this instance which makes this feat even more impressive. At the very least is above SSG level characters and should be within SSB tiers ballmark of striking.
Yeah, except there's a huge problem with this feat. As you said yourself, both of them were holding back to an unknown degree, as is explicitly stated. This, in turn, makes it impossible to definitively say Android 17 = SSJB Goku in striking strength, since we don't know to what degree the 2 were holding back, or whether Goku was holding back more. Considering Goku's tendency to hold back so much in SSJB that even Krillin can temporarily beam struggle against him, you'd be better of not using this feat, because it's completely impossible to say how impressive it is.
Now, what about Black? Well, when we're talking about performance against characters in SSJB, look no further than Black's performance against SSJB Vegeta at the beginning of the Black Arc:
This feat is incredibly impressive for obvious reasons. Goku Black kicks SSJB Vegeta in the chest with enough force to make him spit, and rag doll him backwards about a good dozen meters. Now, while this is Black Arc SSJB Vegeta(who'd be weaker than TOP Arc Goku), the feat was accomplished by Goku Black in his base form, which is the main reason I believe it's such an incredible showing. Doing something like this to a SSJB without even going all-out is something I see even 17 having big trouble replicating.
The next thing that needs to be addressed is whether Black's durability is great enough to withstand 17's blows if he takes direct hits. The answer to that question is without a doubt yes. Goku Black is one of the most durable an enduring characters in all of Dragonball Super, and I'm 100% certain he can take even blows from 17, who's almost on-par with TOP SSJB's. One of his best feats consists of easily shrugging off a barrage of dozens of blows from SSJB Vegeta and emerging with practically no notable damage, no scratches, no destruction of clothes:
Feats at this level are consistent for Goku Black as well, seeing as to how the exact same thing happens once more after he's transformed into Rose, and and an enraged Vegeta kicks him in the midriff, before barraging his chest and stomach with blows, then giving him an uppercut:
And, once again, no damage at all. Black Arc Super Saiyan Blue's are factually unable to even damage Goku Black without some sort of rage boost, like when Vegeta fought against Black in their rematch, or when Goku raged at him after receiving the message that future ChiChi had died, even when delivering dozens of blows. Considering both striking feats you showed for Android 17 clock in at around that level, how do you expect to be able to put Black down?
Now, moving onto the next sub-section, durability. There isn't really much to say here, the feats presented for Android 17 speak for themselves, and are solid indicators he would be able to take physical strikes from Black. The thing is, strikes aren't exactly Zamasu's favourite way of dealing damage. He prefers his other, more trusty weapon: The ki blade. Considering 17's absolute lack of relevant piercing durability feats, and the fact that Goku Black can literally unleash this weapon at any time with no indication it's coming, catching 17 unaware with a weapon he cannot tank is a very viable option here. He did the exact same thing against Vegeta, allowing him to barrage him before catching him unaware with the deadly blade at point-blank range:
Considering the Android 17 can't even sense Ki, he has absolutely no way of seeing this coming, meaning it works perfectly well as an instant win strategy here, one you have no counters to.
Now, for the final sub-section, speed. Here, my opponent presents only one speed feat:
17(alongside Goku and Vegeta) was fighting against Jiren in combat, here he's able to keep pace with his comrades which is particularly impressive considering Jiren at the very start of the ToP was blitzing SSB Goku before he received a zenkai. Think this is enough for now to prove he can at the very least match Black in speed if not outpace him.
I'm sorry to say, this doesn't prove much. Being able to attack Jiren in sync with an exhausted SSBE Vegeta and heavily taxed SSJB Goku isn't bad as a speed feat, but just fighting along someone simply doesn't prove parity in regards to speed, especially since 17 has some pretty explicit anti-feats contradicting the notion that he's faster than a Beginning-of-TOP Goku, like you seem to be implying:
As you can see here, he initially matches Base Toppo, then gets put in an arm-lock, directly implying he's =/< Toppo in speed. Now, before you try to use context as an excuse here, 17 had no idea about Toppo's use of one-handed arm locks, all he was trying to do was restrain him. Getting tagged by his opponents attack, of which he had no way of knowing would suit the situation, definitely wouldn't be the most effective way to accomplish this.
At any rate, being inferior to Toppo in speed is a direct contradiction to being equal with End of Tournament SSJB Goku, or superior to Beginning of the Tournament Blueku. This is the guy who was outsped by beginning of the TOP SSJB Goku pretty definitively, after all, the moment the latter transformed:
All things considered, 17 isn't an equal to TOP-Arc SSJB's in speed when they're going all-out, unlike you seem to be implying. On the other hand, Goku Black's speed. In my humble opinion, thee gap between the 2 is practically non-existent in this regard, seeing as to how 17 is equal or slightly below the likes of Toppo, who's inferior to Beginning of the Tournament Goku. Comparatively, Black's speed is consistently at least slightly above a serious Black Arc Goku, not to mention the earlier feat where he blitzed SSJB Vegeta in his base form(first GIF I posted):
This also lines up with later feats of him blitzing Rage Trunks from a good dozen meters away, and then blitzing SSJB Vegeta head-on, also from a ways away:
All-in-all, his speed is at a level where he's always able to either blitz or outspeed Black Arc Super Saiyan Blue's, something that should easily give him parity to a sub-TOP Blue character, interms of speed. No matter how you slice it, Goku Black isn't inferior in this regard. Right, so that should wrap up the longest section in this post. To conclude, while my opponent says 17 is significantly superior when it comes to stats, this simply isn't the truth, he's about on-par with Goku Black in literally every aspect of physical stats, which means he cannot win. More on that later.
At any rate, my opponents first reason for Android 17 winning this bout has been proven wrong, now let's move onto the rest.
My opponent's next reason for the Android's victory is that:
He has Black beat in his own game of endurance, so he could potentially win through war of attrition
Credit: Chronicplane's Opener
Now this claim is the one I find to be the most faulty out of all of the ones he makes in his conclusion. Here, my opponent claims that Android 17 could beat Black in a warrantees of attrition, due to his infinite stamina and impressive durability feats. However, while the infinite stamina of the Android is indeed something to consider, a far more important aspect in the war of attrition will be Goku Black's rate of improvement. Interms of raw power and physical stats, they start off as almost equals, with 17 perhaps holding a minimal edge when it comes to stats and versatility. However, to be frank, this won't last.
One of Goku Black's most definitive traits is his ridiculously rapid improvement in the middle of battle, something 17 has never shown. Just how rapid is this improvement, and how often does it take place, you ask? Well, it's extremely, extremely noticeable, to the point it allows Black to gain an edge over people that were absolutely bodying him prior to the latest "Zenkai". An example? This is what happened when rage boosted SSJB Goku attacked Black during their 3rd battle in the future, with the two following GIF's representing the 2 exchanges of blows that happened between them during the time before Goku Black's improvement kicked in:
To be frank, Goku Black is getting absolutely dominated during these 2 bouts, landing exactly zero hits on Goku, and barely being able to defend against his punches at all, getting hit directly almost half a dozen times. Now, in the span of the few seconds from the end of the last GIF to the start of this one, Black's improvement really kicks in. This is what happens once the same enraged SSJB Goku who previously pummelled him attempts to finish Black off:
If it isn't enough for you that Zamasu literally states he can feel a significant increase in power, Black straight up catches Goku's punch and then easily bodies him in 2 attacks, essentially returning the one-sided battle from earlier, except the opposite way around. Considering how little time it took for this to kick in against Goku(after 2 exchanges of blows), and how consistently this happens when Black fights an equal or a superior(against Goku in the present, against enraged Goku, against enraged Vegeta) in raw power, like he is here, there's simply no way Android 17 can win a war of attrition. While he may be slightly superior in the beginning, there's simply no way he can maintain such a power advantage when one looks at how significant the power increases Black regularly receives are.
When you add the fact that Black has a weapon at his disposal that can one shot 17 if it tags him even once this, there's just no way the fight would last long enough that 17's infinite stamina would actually come into play as a huge advantage. I cannot stress this enough, considering the lack of a huge gap in raw power between the two parties(as you yourself admitted), there is simply no way 17 can overcome Black's downright unfair rate of improval, even if you do believe he has a significant edge in raw power.
Yet another claim my opponent makes in regards to a good strategy for the defeat of Black:
he'll be able to overwhelm Black in a similar fashion to how he did against Toppo tho the only difference being Black won't be able to retaliate as he hasn't shown the perception speeds to get out of 17's projectile spam.
Credit: Chronicplane's Opener
Here he insinuates that Black has no way to permanently counter 17's energy spam, and that it may be the end of him if he gets caught in a volley, like the one 17 used against Toppo. However, this claim is pretty faulty, since Black actually has quite a few ways of dealing with such a strategy, apart from just dodging. The first thing that immediately comes to mind would be a method of deflecting them, via the use of his energy blade. He's done this before, when SSJB Goku launched a very similar barrage of energy blasts at him, albeit not for nearly as long:
Now, I'll be the first to admit this isn't a perfect perfect solution, but it will give Black a bit of breathing room, and prevent him from getting hit by the full force of 17's barrage. However, in combination with another technique that's up Black's sleave, it makes for a nigh-perfect solution. That technique, is, of course, instant transmission. Literally nothing prevents Black from deflecting the blasts for a few instances using his sword arm, while teleporting away with the other, especially since he's been shown to do this in mid-combat before, also with an energy blade in hand:
The combination of these 2 things is going to make this tactic extremely ineffective, and even allows for a potential counter-attack, seeing as to how Black can teleport behind 17 and nail him with either the blade, or a blast, just like in the scan above. Not to even mention I could legitimately argue Black would simply develop a technique to counteract this, since he has done similar things in the past, what with his clones. I won't push it that far though, these 2 methods are enough.
Ah, Android 17's new, trademark ability, my opponent thinks they will be his salvation in both defence and offence for the following reasons:
Black can be potentially trapped inside of one of his shields and crushed from the inside
Credit: Chronicplane's Opener
Now, the reason this obviously won't work should be clear if you read my last section: Instant Transmission. There's no need to write an extensive counter to this tactic when all Goku Black needs to once 17 does trap in a barrier is raise his hand to his forehead and teleport out of it. Not to mention 17 has never, ever attempted to crush someone with his barriers, so I severely doubt this method is in-character for him regardless, but I digress. No matter what, this tactic won't amount to much of anything.
The much more relevant point would indeed be this one:
His shields are also gonna be a pain for Black to deal with and would need to pull out his most powerful attacks in order to possibly break through them which is still unlikely given there performance against blue Goku
Credit: Chronicplane's Opener
Here, you insinuate that Black would have big trouble getting past 17's Barriers, a sentiment I very much agree with. I doubt Black's energy attacks would be able to pierce through 17's Barriers in one shot. What I feel you're overrating however, is how relevant this will be. Android 17 has used these barriers almost exclusively to block against ranged attacks, and practically never in CQC(after all, it prevents him from counterattacking as well), which is what Black and his energy blade specialise in, as can be seen in literally every fight he's had after acquiring Rose. In other words, the Barrier is a very niche defensive technique, that might be of use the occasional few times Black fires some energy blasts, but for the majority of the fight, which'll take part in CQC, they won't be particularly useful.
I mean, at the very latest once Black see's that the Barrier makes most of his energy projection useless, he'll switch to CQC, he's not stupid.
I think Black wins this bout because he has:
Now, by the end of the CaV I think you Voters will definitely agree that my reasons are simply far more steadfast than my opponents. I'll leave him the word now, though. @chronicplane
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