CaV: All Might(God_Vulcan) vs Meruem(streak619) OPEN FOR VOTING!

@higherpower said:

Meh, more like nitpicking. Speed of sound, supersonic, doesn't really matter. We have no real basis on All might's speed nor was it convincing enough for me.

@higherpower:

Because I didn't have to. It is not a necessity to counter each and every single feat from your opponent in a CaV. Only the ones you feel are wrong/highballed/or gives your opponents' character an advantage. If everyone countered every single feat mentioned, CaVs would be several times longer.

I didn't debunk that because a) there was nothing wrong with it that could be debunked b) it wasn't faster than Meruem scaling to Cheetu's feat.

I never asked you for a reason. I don't care why you didn't counter it. I simply said I posted it twice and twice I drew the conclusion of hypersonic+ and twice it was ignored. So I pointed out the unaddressed, irrefuted argument for Meruem being hypersonic+ so that he could realise could change his opinion on speed.

I just didn't feel like doing what streak is currently doing and challenge everything. That statement in particular just bothered me because saying Edgeshot is the speed of sound is a shameless lie.

Ever heard of a mistake? Cause this is a clear example of one. He probably saw it in your opener and caught only "speed of sound" like I did. Me ignoring those scans is a silent message of concession. I guess I am a shameless liar too?

It usually makes you look salty that you didn't get the person's vote. It's bad form and lacks character.

It doesn't mean you are salty. Especially when you have a point. Since the two of us do, we're not salty regarding each other's votes, as much as concerned about their validness.

And lacks character? What? How does ensuring that the votes that go for your opponent are valid and informed votes an indication of lack of character? That makes no sense.

I will bring up a flaw only if it's really bad, but for example asking Gearsecond those extra questions was unnecessary.

Well, what would you do if someone ignored the key points of your argument. Ie: All Might being town level, and proceeded to vote with reasoning of that manner?

I really don't see why you have cold feat about testing votes, treating it like a glass vase. Anything that would shatter with a bit prodding, doesn't deserve to be counted. Unless you wanna contest that notion.

@streak619: I don't want to derail the thread so I'll counter that in a pm.

Speed of sound = supersonic? And if Meruem is hypersonic and I called him supersonic just because, it "wouldn't really matter" and streak rebutting that would be nitpicking right? I honestly don't feel like counting your vote. But whatever.

@gearsecond659:

I will give you that. However, as mentioned by people on our CaV, purposely ignoring one's point is a legitimate strategy as it draws attention away from that point. Higherpower was able to do this, resulting in Meruem's speed advantage not being celebrated on, at least not to my liking.

Him employing that strategy, doesn't mean voters are supposed to ignore it. He hopes that it subconsciously works, that doesn't mean you can consciously ignore it

You've hilariously misunderstood how this works.

Not to mention nowhere did he say he wante dto misdirect attention from it:

Because I didn't have to. It is not a necessity to counter each and every single feat from your opponent in a CaV. Only the ones you feel are wrong/highballed/or gives your opponents' character an advantage. If everyone countered every single feat mentioned, CaVs would be several times longer.

As he literally said himself, he ignored it cause he felt no need to address it. Which debunks your claim of him doing it to misdirect you attention.

Now having debunked your premise and logic for ignoring something I highlighted to the best of my abilities by going out of my way to put it in a seperate frigging section making it impossible to not notice it, I will be inclined to void your vote if you do not present a valid reason for ignoring a highlighted speed feat.

Dude as he literally said himself. Whether it is supersonic or subsonic has no bearing on his overall point:

it wasn't the point of the bulk of my point. Rather the poor use of power scaling was.

Even if it is supersonic, something he concedes to, it doesn't change his overall opinion.

@streak619:

I will be inclined to void your vote if you do not present a valid reason for ignoring a highlighted speed feat.

All of my other votes didn't mention that speed feat. Why are you making a fuss now?

@streak619: Ok.

@higherpower: I forgot about it back then in the heat of the moment. I also didn't feel like going through the pain of dealing with their simplistic votes.

Watcher in the end didn't even mention speed and in fact earlier said All Might was faster. Which is just moronic and a textbook example of bias. He then actually read through the debate, realised he said something stupid and then cahnged it, conveniently forgetting the speed advantage that you conceded in his reasoning.

As for HTA, we had to push and push to get 3 sentences of simplistic reasoning, you think I have the patience to push them further in the state of mind I was back then?

That's lame. the speed of sound is closer to supersonic than hypersonic is to supersonic. You're being pedantic and purposefully missed the point of my comment because I said speed of sound instead of supersonic, nor am I denying that said characters transformation occurs faster than sound. It was a mistake in my typing that you're hanging on to for whatever reason.

If we can't have a civil voting process cancel it and let it be a draw.

@streak619: I am not consciously ignoring your point. I am saying that because higher power ignored your point and focused on Cheetu, you really didn't get the chance to elaborate on Meruem's other speed feats.

I'd rather lose.

I elaborated more than enough on his other speed feat.

I provided the feat, and the context, the analysis and a conclusion. There is no more elaboration required.

My opponent did not, for whatever reason, provide a counter for my argument. The rules of a CaV dictate you to base your reasoning on all arguments provided. Since there was no counter to my speed argument, you're obliged to accept it, because it is the rule of a CaV to base your vote on said argument.

Edit: even if it were true that I couldn't elaborate on it, that is by no means grounds to completely ignore it. You're still obliged to take into account accorsing to the rules of a CaV.

I thought I was the one who is voting here, not you. Why are you being so aggressive? I didn't ignore your statement, I just thought that you should have added a little bit more information and proof that what you were saying was correct.

@gearsecond659:

I thought I was the one who is voting here, not you. Why are you being so aggressive?

I don't see myself as aggressive, so that is subjective. And you being the voter is not grounds for invalidly ignoring a feat that you're obliged to take into consideration.

I didn't ignore your statement, I just thought that you should have added a little bit more information and proof that what you were saying was correct.

Like I said;

A solid feat would be:

Gallery

Meruem was in the palace. Knuckle was outside it. standing among millions of humans to blend in. So basically, Meruem got out the window, and with a casual leap blitzed Knuckle from god knows how many hundreds meters away before Knuckle realized Meruem was NEXT to him. Knuckle and most of the mid-high tier are casual bullet timers, with the best feat of the entire tier being casual point blank bullet timing.

Conclusion: PR Meruem is irrefutably hypersonic+.

I gave a feat, scans for the feat, context, analysis and a conclusion. Please depict what part of this is not informatory regarding the feat, that justifies you completely ignoring it.

@streak619: Evidence that Knuckle is a CASUAL bullet timer? Evidence that any of the characters Meruem blitzed are CASUAL bullet timers? EVIDENCE EVIDENCE EVIDENCE. This is the problem, my dude. You rely to heavily on scaling. Just because Knuckle is in a tier doesn't mean he is on the same level as everyone in that tier because there are tiers within that tier as well. You can't expect me to just take your word for it and take everything you say at face value. I NEED FEATS!!!

@gearsecond659:

Just because Knuckle is in a tier doesn't mean he is on the same level as everyone in that tier because there are tiers within that tier as well.

Which is a) false because putting a character in a tier gives you a rough estimate of their stats, otherwise they wouldn't be part of said tier. The minimum speed of the tier that Knuckle is part of is casual bullet timing. Since Knuckle is part of said tier, he can casually bullet time.

b) Not providing evidence for something my opponent didn't question is common sense. Also questioning my arguments for evidence when my opponent didn't, implies that you're basing your reasoning partially off of your arguments against my argument for speed, which is against the rules of a CaV.

c)I posted scans for Knuckle casually blitzing post Kite's death Gon, which is more than enough evidence.

d)A little irrelevant, but you actually believe so strongly that Knuckle isn't a bullet timer? Such that you'd abuse Caps and exclaimatory marks while demanding for evidence?

There are things that both HP and I and generally anyone in a CaV wouldn't provide evidence for because they're obvious. No one provides scans for every sentence they say, it's tedious and the voter and the opponent is expected to know said facts. I can bring an example of this from your opener in our CaV, so I suggest you don't disagree.

So the ignoring the entire argument over such a said fact is ridiculous.

You also changed your reasons on three occassions for not taking into consideration my arguments.

@streak619: First of all, I didn't change my reasoning. I am just stating my opinion based on the evidence you have shown me. Second, evidence does matter. If you just say Meruem is hypersonic + without evidence, how can you expect anyone to believe you. And Knuckle blitzing Gon isn't evidence because Gon isn't even hypersonic. And while power scaling is good in moderation< I felt like you relied heavily on it.

Even IF I were to concede, I didn't feel like your argument emphasized speed as a way to counter all of All Might's other advantages. Sure Meruem may be fast, but speed will only carry you so far, and while you may have had the speed advantage, All Might had the advantage in everything else from my perspective.

I still haven’t voted yet, but I think you guys might be taking this a bit too seriously. I understand you want to make sure the votes are free from bias since you both worked really hard on the debate, but questioning voters too hard isn’t doing anyone any favors. You kinda just need to chill and be grateful anyone takes the time to read in general. Honestly, you’ll never have a 100% bias free vote anyway ever, since everyone has some bias within them. Better to just enjoy it for fun more than anything else. I may vote later if I have time, though.

This got really fugging cancerous really fugging fast.

This

@otsdarva999: Thank you.

@streak619@higherpower: Alright guys sorry for the wait on my vote but I finally got to read and re-read this and have an idea of who I want to vote for. In this debate my vote goes to HP in a close and good debate. Mainly because in terms of the characters HP convinced me of three things:

• All Might has the strength and durability to not only significantly harm Mereum but also take as much as he gives.
• Even if Mereum has a speed advantage, it isn't so horrendous that All Might won't be able to tag him.
• Many of AM's feats were performed when he was much weaker than he would be in the conditions of the CAV and they were still enough to compete without that stipulation meaning a prime AM would be even stronger, faster, more durable, and skilled

That's not to say that Streak didn't do well however as he did convince me that Mereum had a speed and intelligence advantage, however I felt that HigherPower's argument were more convincing overall. A couple of things I feel that you both spent too much time on however were the issues of scaling and throwing out what was a fallacy and debating technique or what not. I don't mean to sound pretentious or like an asshole, but at times it felt like you both would throw out stuff like strawman or fallacy and lose track of what you were trying to debate and it made some of your points suffer for it. The scaling was another big issue that caused some highball and lowball from both sides. As an outsider looking in I would say try to stay on and use as many solid base feats as possible. (I know you both know this very much, but anyone can forget on any given day. However I still felt that this was a very solid debate from both sides and a matchup of debaters that i would love to see again. I hope you both can accept this vote. Great job again but my final vote goes to @higherpower

God, how did a good CaV turn into this cancerous mess so quickly?

@hittheassasin: lol

@darthjhawk: Thanks for the vote and the reasoning, DJH.

Me: 7

Streak: 4

@streak619: Also:

As for HTA, we had to push and push to get 3 sentences of simplistic reasoning, you think I have the patience to push them further in the state of mind I was back then?

Stop it. I typed a freakin' essay on who I thought debated better and then you complained about it until I was forced to give another explanation, which I didn't bother to make as long again, because I honestly can't be bothered to spend that much time on a CaV that doesn't include me.

Besides, weren't you the one that said that you'd be fine with whatever reasoning I give? Oh, and also, you need to chill the hell out, this is a CaV that is done for fun, you should be grateful people even bothered to take time out of their lives to read and vote on this. I understand questioning certain votes that literally don't elaborate at all or state any reasons, I've done that myself, but bugging people who typed out reasonably long votes and gave solid explanations is just unnecessary and quite frankly, just makes you look like an overly competetive asshole, which I know you aren't.

And Knuckle blitzing Gon isn't evidence because Gon isn't even hypersonic.

This literally proves that you didn't undestand the argument. But screw it.

Thanks for the vote @darthjhawk:

I accepted the vote second time around. I stood by my word did I not? What I said I was too tired to point out my other argument for Meruem's speed.

And I don't know about you bud, but I take a CaV very seriously. Which is what makes it fun for me. I treat it as if it were war. Which is the best part about it.

I don't understand why I'm the bad guy for asking one guy to take into account a feat he didn't. Really, I asked him about it in a normal, straight forward manner and everybody starts getting worked up for no real reason, it isn't me who needs to calm down.

@streak619: Okay then. Where was your proof that Gon was hypersonic again.

Alright Let's get into my vote

Speed: well tbh the debate when it comes to speed was never who is faster but if meruem is fast enough to blitz and tbh i think higherpower did a good enough job proving that all might can at least react to meruem which is all he had to prove

Durability: If all might lands he wins simple as that there really isnt a counter to that

extras

• HP had better formatting
• streak highballed and lowballed quite a bit and i felt it was not really necessary
• Streak also scaled way more then he needed to

conclusion

• AM is stronger
• meruem is smarter and faster though not by a big enough margin to where he could blitz
• AM aoe is something that you really cant counter
• both of you did a great job

All in all i am voting for @higherpower@streak619: you did a great job

@thenewguysnm1: thanks for the vote.

Also you said AM is faster. Is that mistake or..?

HP:8

Me:4

yeah i meant physically stronger heck in my first sentence i stated how speed was not a debate

@thenewguysnm1: right, thanks again.

@streak619: maybe you should tag some more people they may have forgotten about it

@thenewguysnm1: perhaps I should.

Also out of curioisity, after reading your vote again. What about my formatting put it below HP's?

@higherpower: and voting period ends

HP: 8

Me: 4

Lost, but had fun debating. Thank you for humoring this CaV. Hope I get another chance at you.