CaV: Aizen (Maestromage) vs Meliodas (Defiant_Will) VOTING CLOSED - DEFIANT WINS

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maestromage

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#1  Edited By maestromage

Challenge-A-Viner

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Rules and Stipulations:

  • Morals on and in character, but seriously trying to win
  • Random encounter
  • Current Meliodas, God Aizen (Pre TYBW)
  • Manga and Anime feats allowed
  • Energies equalised
  • Win by KO, Death or Incapacitation

CAV Rules

  • This is a CAV so don't comment on who you think wins the fight or anything like that
  • At the end of the debate, vote for who you think made the better arguments, not which character you think wins
  • Give reasons for why you think they debated better
  • If you want to be tagged when the debate is over, just say "Tag for votes" (or T4V).

The battle takes place here

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Darthjhawk

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Tag meh

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EcoBlitz

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#3 EcoBlitz  Online

TaEP t4V

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Floridaman29

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ThousandSteps

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taep tho

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WhatamIseeing

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FaradaySloth

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prob not going to vote but taep regardless.

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CaptFalcon725

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#TAEP please

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#12 Dmnb2wavy  Online

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TAEP.

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maestromage

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#20  Edited By maestromage

Sōsuke Aizen // Extinction

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Extinction I - The Power of a Monster

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Aizen is a character most well known and feared both in and out of universe for the illusory abilities granted by his Zanpakutō. However, he is by no means reliant on it as Gin stressed in Aizen's fight against the Captains of the Soul Society. Aizen's power is constantly shown to be far above that of almost every captain in the series. One of his notable feats is the fact that Aizen created Las Noches with his power. Las Noches is a huge structure so large that when running towards it Ichigo questioned if it was a mirage due to it not getting any closer, and so large that from one spot at the edge, the gate inside was "only" a three day walk away. Las Noches is easily island sized if not bigger, and more impressive than simply creating it, Aizen also scales above the Espada's ability to destroy it.

Chapter 345: The Sloth
Chapter 345: The Sloth

Gran Rey Cero and even the release of Espadas 1-4 are touted as capable of Destroying Las Noches. This statement in and of itself may not be hugely convincing, but when you consider that all the Espada, especially the top six, scale above Ichigo's feat of blasting past several large-hills/small mountains with a Getsuga in Shikai

Bleach: Memories of Nobody
Bleach: Memories of Nobody

This idea becomes much more reasonable. Now, this feat is from a movie which would usually be considered non-canon, but the events of MoN should actually be canon given that Ichigo references going to the valley of screams in the manga (which only happened in the movie) as well as the fact with the movie was written by Kubo. This feat should be around multi-mountain level, so even simply stacking Ichigo's Bankai and Hollow Mask amps on top of this would suggest that he and the Espada who scale to/above him should be around island level, which is in-line with the statement that suggests as such.

What makes the statement of destroying Las Noches even more impressive in the context of discussing Aizen's power, is the fact that Aizen himself considered the Espada's power "incredibly inferior" to his own. Aizen even makes this statement whilst stomping Halibel, Espada No. 3. So Aizen, at his weakest, is far superior in power to characters who can casually island bust.

In regards to durability, though Aizen doesn't get hit often he's still very durable, as we saw in his brief fight against Yamamoto.

Chapter 395: The Burnout Inferno 3
Chapter 395: The Burnout Inferno 3

At the end of their fight, Yamamoto grabs Aizen and unleashes a Hado so powerful it requires you to sacrifice part of you body to use (in this case an arm) and Aizen comes out with only light injuries. Earlier in this same chapter Yamamoto's power was going to reduce Karakura Town to ashes as well as the barrier surrounding it. Karakura Town is pretty large given that Gin was able to swing his 8-mile long sword around within the barrier, meaning that Aizen tanked an attack from a character easily capable of vaporising a small island sized area without taking any serious damage.

The thing that catapults Aizen even further in power is, of course, the Hogyoku.

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The Hogyoku is an item created by Kisuke Urahara to breakdown the barriers between Shinigami and Hollows but in actuality became an existence capable of materializing the wishes of those around it in the real world. Aizen goes on to fuse with the Hogyoku, causing him to evolve several times, granting him new abilities and making him more powerful. We see this new power first hand when he crushes Kototsu with his spiritual pressure, an otherworldly being that the Soul Society is incapable of handling, clearly demonstrating a new level of power. Aizen shows off his power in a more clear cut manner when he uses his Fragor against Dangai Ichigo.

Chapter 419: DECIDE 21 (Transcendent God Rock)
Chapter 419: DECIDE 21 (Transcendent God Rock)

Aizen's Fragor created a cylindrical explosion that wider than several mountains and tall enough that to the people in Karakura town (which was miles away from where Aizen was fighting Ichigo) it still appeared as a huge column going high into the air. On top of that, it also vaporised the part of the ground that it touched, creating a huge crater. Given the insane height of Fragor's explosion combined with it vaporising small rock, this feat should be pushing small country level, and Aizen can spam this attack as he immediately goes on to surround Ichigo with several of the attacks.

Extinction II - A Captain's Abilities

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As someone who was a Captain in the Soul Society, Aizen is skilled in numerous Kido abilities that he employs in battle. These Kido offer alternative methods for Aizen to employ in battle, but Aizen's most significant piece of versatility would be his notorious Zanpakuto, Kyouka Suigetsu, and it's ability Kanzen Saimin:

Chapter 171: End of Hypnosis 3 (the Blue Fog)
Chapter 171: End of Hypnosis 3 (the Blue Fog)

As Aizen himself explains here, his Zanpakuto allows him to manipulate the senses of anyone who sees his Zanpakuto in order to create a flawless hypnosis. Aizen later confirms that his abilities allow him to control all five senses, but what makes things worse for Meliodas is that Aizen at this point has fused with his Zanpakuto, meaning that Meliodas will be hypnotized if he simply looks at Aizen, which is unavoidable.

Other than his Zanpakuto, Aizen's most notable abilities come from the Hogyoku. The Hogyoku's power is what allowed Aizen to evolve and grow so much, and it continues to do so in his fights, granting him more power against Dangai Ichigo, as well as effectively giving him an insane healing factor.

Chapter 414: DECIDE 16
Chapter 414: DECIDE 16

When Gin betrayed Aizen, he used his ability to hide a shard of his sword that contained a cell dissolving poison inside Aizen's heart, and then expanded his sword and pretty much deleted most of Aizen's torso, taking several vital organs with it. Yet even after Gin removes the Hogyoku from his chest, this proves insufficient to put Aizen down as he recovers from the attack without issue in the next chapter, kills Gin and takes it back.

Aizen has some other less significant abilities like his Kido, but I'll expand on those if/when necessary.

Extinction III - Aizen's Fighting Style

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Aizen's fighting style is somewhat unorthodox, but it perfectly reflects his personality. Intelligent, manipulative, and dangerous. We frequently see him weaving KS in with his normal attacks, allowing him to freely dodge attacks and land his own. Take his "fight" with Halibel, if you can even call it a fight. First, he blitzes her and lands a serious blow, and then when she attempts to retaliate he uses KS to make it seem like her attack lands and then uses the opportunity to stab her in the shoulder before slashing her one more time to end the fight. He makes full usage of his physical and ability advantages to effectively take Halibel down in a very short period of time. His fight with Halibel also shows off a key part of Aizen's fighting style, that being his use and abuse of speed. Aizen frequently uses his speed to his advantage and blitzes his opponents in his fights. For a more quantifiable example, take Aizen's blitz against Ichigo.

Chapter 388: Eagle Without Wings 2
Chapter 388: Eagle Without Wings 2

Despite Ichigo staring right at him, Aizen casually blitzes Ichigo over a large distance seemingly going FTE to him, and then easily dodges Ichigo's next attack. This same Ichigo reacted to and kept up with Gin's Mach 500 Bankai and was able to react to Buto/Buto Rejin (which doubles its speed) enough that he was able to put on his Hollow Mask to avoid it. In this instance, Aizen blitzed Ichigo as his hollow mask was coming off, but Ichigo's reactions should still be around the Mach 1000 range, and Aizen hilariously outsped him in a much weaker form than he's in here.

Aizen's speed combined with KS allows him to control the flow of the battle so they turn in his favour. On top of these things he also occasionally uses Kido to help accentuate these factors, as he did against Komamura.

Chapter 176: End of Hypnosis 8 (the Transfixion)
Chapter 176: End of Hypnosis 8 (the Transfixion)

Aizen uses KS to effectively conceal his blitz against Komamura by making it seem like he's standing still doing nothing before using the powerful Kurohitsugi to basically one-shot Komamura. Though at the time he couldn't use the ability to it's fullest, after evolving with the Hokgyoku he's able to properly use the technique to the point that its gravity distorts space and time.

Initial Thoughts

Though I don't know exactly how my opponent plans to argue Mel, I'm confident that Aizen has what it takes to win this battle. He should be at least comparable to Meliodas in raw stats, is granted better regeneration as well as adaptive evolution by the Hogyuku, and his hypnosis lets him freely manipulate what his opponent sees allowing him to control the flow of the battle.

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Nice.

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EpicHotFlame

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nice

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CaptFalcon725

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That Aizen argument was a thing of beauty. Can't wait for the Meliodas argument.

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defiant_will

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#27  Edited By defiant_will

Opener | The Dragon's Sin of Wrath

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Meliodas. Captain of the Ten Commandments and later, the Seven Deadly Sins. The Heir to the Demonic Throne. Centuries worth of battle experience, raw power rivaling and surpassing that of the Demon King himself, all contained within what would otherwise appear to be a teenager's body. But, don't let his appearance fool you. Meliodas is easily one of the more powerful characters in this tier, and I'd argue that he even has what it takes to defeat Aizen himself.

Theme: Wrath of Meliodas

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Raw Power

When facing someone on the level of Aizen, I feel it necessary to esablish a baseline that should allow Meliodas to contend with the Soul Reaper. Especially considering that Meliodas isn't always given the credit he deserves in that regard. Multi mountain level DC is something even a Red Demon can replicate:

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As shown in the scans above, a single section of the Hellblaze blast is comparable in size to the Sacred Tree, and there are at least four of them. For reference, the Sacred Tree is at least mountain sized (likely large mountain sized), with small mountains surrounding its base and being dwarfed by its overall height:

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These Demons are quite literally canon fodder to any relevant Demon, be it the Ten Commandments or Meliodas himself. Red Demons are explicitly stated to be the lowest rankingDemons, which means they are orders of magnitude weaker then Meliodas. The most inferior of the Demon Race has no right to be relative to the Demon King's heir, by any stretch. Further supported by Ban fodderizing them in one of his weaker forms.

Multi Mountain level DC is fodder to Meliodas in every sense of the word. On top of common sense and basic portrayal, Meliodas also has the feats to back this up. His Darkness alone was able to stalemate Mael's output with his "Sunshine:"

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This is a very solid showing for Meliodas considering that Mael is capable of large island to even small country levels of output with a mere flex of his power. Here Mael completely disperses the dark clouds created by the Original Demon in an instant. This is noteworthy considering that the Original Demon's clouds had covered most of Britannia, even reaching King and company from Camelot.The distance between Camelot (where the Original Demon was) and King was about half the size of Britannia.

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Cloud dispersion of that scale has consistently been calced between the ranges of large island and small country level output. For Meliodas to stalemate such an attack with his own Darkness is a testament to his own raw power. But even that isn't the best Meliodas has to offer in DC. No, that privilege belongs to Meliodas' infamous feat-

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-Danafor

Ever since I finished reading NNT, I've always wondered why this feat was argued at multi mountain level to island level. Besides the hilarity at the prospect of one of Meliodas' more powerful attacks being equal in power to that of a Red Demon, such an assertion is blatantly contradicted by the feat itself.

Let's examine what is happening there. Meliodas, in a fit of rage, releases a massive AoE blast of Darkness that vaporizes the kingdom of Danafor. I know the exact properties of Darkness have been called into question in the past as they can vary with different attacks (I will expand on these forms later). However, it is clear that the Darkness AoE that Meliodas uses has a heat component. The linked scan is from the NNT Anime storyboard drawn by Nakaba (the Mangaka of the NNT), referencing the "fires" left behind for three days after Danafor was vaporized by Meliodas. This is further supported by Zaratras' flashback, where we see the destruction of Danafor as more of a heat/fire based attack. Both of these pieces of evidence pretty much confirms that Meliodas' Darkness AoE carries heat, such that it completely vaporized Danafor. As in, "it was wiped off the map."

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With the foundation set, let's go more in depth with the Danafor bust. For starters, what is consistent with all depictions of Meliodas vaporizing Danafor is that significant chunks of mountains were shaved off by its AoE (1-2-3). Obviously, vaporizing sizable portions of rock yields high DC results, but that was just the outskirts of the AoE. In regards to vaporizing Danafor itself, Danafor is implied to be as big as Liones. From statements directly comparing the two as powerful kingdomsto an uncanny similarity in landscape and structure (1-2). These comparisons become important when assessing Liones' size. Gowther's Blackout, boasting a 3 mile radius, didn't even cover the entirety of Liones:

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Looking at the top left panel, it is very clear that Blackout didn't cover the entirety of Liones. This is a map of Liones for reference:

Note how there are two castles in Liones while Blackout only covers one
Note how there are two castles in Liones while Blackout only covers one

This kind of size for Liones is supported by the fact that Liones has a capital city, which implies that the Kingdom itself is made up of multiple cities. The comparisons between Danafor and Liones actually makes it very clear that they are at the very least relative in size. A 3 mile radius (28 mile area) doesn't even cover all of Liones. As a summary, in addition to vaporizing large chunks of mountain, Meliodas vaporized an area that should be significantly larger than a 28 mile area. That's all well and good, but the game changing aspect is the height and depth of the vaporization. Let's look at the scan again.

In that scene, you can see Meliodas' Darkness dwarfing the height of mountains, surpassing cloud height (clouds lie at bare minimum 2km), and continuing off panel. Darkness that can vaporize an entire Kingdom and halves of mountains, extending over 2 kilometers into the air would further increase the total DC. If that blast was angled horizontally, its overall AP would dwarf that of just Danafor vaping. Even at its shown angle, it would be tantamount to vaporizing multiple Danafor sized landmasses. That may seem hyperbolic, but it really isn't when you consider the depth of the blast. The Darkness went so deep into the ground that light couldn't reach the bottom of the crater and that its massive area looked tiny from below:

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Now what hasn't really been talked about is the vaporization aspect. While Danafor isn't country sized, nor is the blast itself (maybe in sheer volume), vaporization is far more impressive than standard busting. Unlike busting, if you vaporize something of a set size, your "busting" potential would dwarf that. To put that into perspective, it takes just under large building busting energy to vaporize five 20-feet tall steel beams (Source). That was a lot, so here is a quick summary:

  1. Darkness AoE is pretty much confirmed to be heat based, meaning vaporization took place
  2. Danafor is comparable to Liones, a Kingdom significantly larger than a 28 mile area
  3. Danafor AND mountain chunks were vaporized, which signifies high levels of potency
  4. In addition to the Kingdom and mountain, the very ground below Danafor (which is the same area as Danafor itself, but is made purely of solid ground) was vaporized
  5. Said ground was so deep that light couldn't reach the bottom
  6. The height of the Darkness surpassed 2KM, which would be added on top of its depth and we know that the upper half of the Darkness can vaporize just as much
  7. Vaporization itself means you can "bust" structures that far surpass the area vaporized by orders of magnitude

So, between relative fodder being capable of multi mountain levels of DC along with Meliodas' own feats of stalemating Mael's Sunshine output and vaporizing Danafor, small country level Meliodas is hardly a stretch.

Physicality

Now that you have a general idea of the tier at which Meliodas operates at, let's get into the nitty gritty and address Meliodas' physicality. In terms of striking strength, Meliodas is not to be underestimated. Despite his seemingly unimposing physique, Meliodas is quite the heavy hitter, as has been shown quite consistently.

To not waste any time, let's take a second to look at Ban. When Ban and Meliodas were reunited in Purgatory, Ban flat out admits that Meliodas is his superior. A sentiment reaffirmed by their performance against the Demon King, most notably when Meliodas frees Ban from Demon King's grip. Ban was visibly struggling to do so himself, not budging it an inch.

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Noteworthy that the Meliodas who did this had not yet returned back to his body, which would make him that much more powerful. That means the Meliodas being used in this CaV is quite handily above Ban physically. Why is this impressive? Well, after returning from Purgatory, Ban received quite the stat boost. Observe:

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Ban punches the Demon King's head into the ground, the residual force creating fissures extending past the horizon. These fissures are observed from a height of at least dozens of meters. A 30 meter height would make the distance to the horizon 20 KM, so the fissures are around that length. These fissures were omnidirectional to boot, meaning that Ban's AoE would have had a diameter of around 40 KM. To put things into perspective, a 2 meter height (the view of an observer that is 6 foot 7) would make the distance to the horizon 5 KM. With that in mind, these numbers aren't at all far fetched. In fact, such power is consistent with Ban's finishing attack against the Demon King:

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Diana uses her magic to raise a tower of Diamond to cloud height and above in an instant. Ban intercepts its rise with a jump and punches the Demon King. The punch ravages the tower and creates a shockwave dwarfing the entire structure. The latter aspect cements this in the island level ranges, but the former aspect shouldn't be dismissed. This tower was massive, dwarfing mountain height, and yet Ban split it in half. The momentum factor should also be considered. A large mass of diamond extending into the air at hypersonic speeds would yield absurd levels of KE, which Ban brought to a complete halt with a single punch. Not everyone is onboard with KE arguments, but I feel like it is pretty undeniable that KE played a significant role here. KE is actually what makes most of Diane's magic attacks so powerful, propelling durable structures at high speeds.The sheer power that such magic brings is shown time and time again. Even before Diane received training from Drole, mastered her power and became strong enough to perform the feat with Ban, Diane could still spawn earth-made constructs from the ground, powerful enough to disperse "Dragon Castle."Such a feat was accomplished via Ground Gladius, a far inferior variation of the Diamon Tower, though they are identical fundamentally. Diane raises a massive structure from the ground at high speed, which in turn gives the attack a great amount of force, which in this case was enough to cancel out a combo attack from two Holy Knights. Those two feats from Ban are solid island level showings which Meliodas handily scales above, even when not at his strongest.

In terms of durability, I've already shown Meliodas' feat with his Darkness cloaked around his person. However, even without that, Meliodas is far from a glass canon. Quite the contrary in fact. When the Demon King inhabited Meliodas' body, Ban said that the Meliodas he knew was more powerful than DK Meliodas. Up until that point, DK Meliodas had tanked several blows from Ban, including the very island level feat we already discussed. So even an explicitly weaker form of Mel than the one I am using here could still tank numerous blows from a island level character. Even when Meliodas is at his strongest, he can still take hits from characters over his weight class. And by "over his weight class," I mean no selling his punches and blitzing the crap out of him. However, dozens of these blows only leave Meliodas with minor bruises and Meliodas is able to activate his Demon Mark mid blitz and return the favor:

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With all of that said, there is only one more aspect of physicality to address: speed. NNT as a whole seems to get a lot of crap for not having a gazillion speed feats when compared to other Shounen series that are twice its length. This always seemed unfair to me considering just how high a quality these speed feats are in impressiveness and explicitness.

In the beginning stages of NNT, I'll admit that impressive speed feats were very hard to come by. That was until the awakening of the Ten Commandments. It was at that point that the powerscale of NNT was catapulted to new heights as we bared witness to the Commandment of Truth, Galan:

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Above, Galan instantly moves several miles out of Merlin's sphere of influence with her magic. Baring in mind that earlier on, Merlin was effortlessly toying around with Vivian, teleporting her all over Britannia. Needless to say moving several miles outside of Merlin's already massive sphere of influence, in an instant, is no easy feat as said influence should already be hundreds of miles. What's more is that said teleportation speed far surpasses the speed at which Vivian can cat a spell. Vivian herself can use her magic to bend Gilthunder's lightning mid-flight, which is at the very least a hypersonic showing for Vivian. That leaves us with a hypersonic + teleportation spell with a range of hundreds of miles, failing to "tag" Galan before he moves several miles outside of the spell's influence. Such a feat would require high end triple digit-low end quad mach speeds. And this feat was borderline effortless for Galan. Anyway, after Meliodas gets stomped by Galan and reclaims the power Merlin sealed away (still far weaker than his current self), he gets a rematch with the Commandment. And this happened:

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The textbook definition of a blitz. Meliodas outspeeds Galan to a massive degree, to the point that Galan couldn't even iniaite an attack before Mel sliced him over a dozen times. Keep in mind Galan's travel speed is the same as his combat/reaction speed. This is shown when Galan performs actions while jumpingor when he cleaved straight through Tarmiel, who was fast enough to react to Galan's lunge. This makes Meliodas effortlessly blitzing Galan quite the impressive feat, and again, this is far from Meliodas' best.

Escanor's Cruel Sun actually has a similar speed feat to Galan's lunge. It was fast enough to instantly move out of Monspiet's sensory range. Said range is hundreds of miles. And yet, in a similar fashion to Galan, the Cruel Sun instantly escaped this sensory range despite having its momentum slowed by Zeldris:

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In his Assault Mode, Meliodas easily reacts to a point blank Cruel Sun, Full Countering it back at Escanor, who also reacts to it and dodges his reflected attack:

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The same Escanor that can react to a point blank reflected Cruel Sun could hardly do the same to AM Mel. To say that AM Mel is faster than Pre TO Escanor is quite the understatement:

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A feat like this is comfortably mid end quad mach, and even that is still not Meliodas' best speed showing. After returning from Purgatory, reclaiming his original body from the Demon King, Meliodas' power was at an all time high. This is reflected in his final battle against the Demon King, who had taken over the body of his younger brother, Zeldris. Elizabeth is sent flying into the air by a violent gust of wind. A natural lightning bolt then swoops down on Elizabeth. Before the lightning bolt could tag Elizabeth from, at most, two meters away, Meliodas (who was previously nowhere in sight) intercepts the bolt and reflects it. This was all done at such high speeds that the Demon King himself thought Elizabeth herself repelled the lightning.

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It should go without saying that intercepting and reflecting a lightning bolt before it could tag Elizabeth from two meters away is a feat that would require dwarfing the speed of lightning (Mach 286). In fact, Meliodas would have to be dozens of times faster than lightning speed to statue it to that degree. The most conservative of estimates would put this feat at the high end quad mach range, but realistically it is comfortably low quint. What makes this even more impressive is that it was accomplished by base form Meliodas. For reference, even the first stage of a Demon Mark allows Meliodas to blitz Ban several times overdespite previously being completely drained of his physical capabilities by Ban, who then stacked said physicals on top of his own. Needless to say, Meliodas is more than capable of surpassing these speeds by orders of magnitude.

Dealing with Aizen

At this point, it should be well established that Meliodas is well within Aizen's tier of power. So it is now time to take a deeper dive into the battle at hand. From what I gather, Aizen's biggest asset in this fight seems to be his "Kanzen Saimin." From Maestro's description of said ability, it seems to be sensory manipulation:

Aizen later confirms that his abilities allow him to control all five senses, but what makes things worse for Meliodas is that Aizen at this point has fused with his Zanpakuto, meaning that Meliodas will be hypnotized if he simply looks at Aizen, which is unavoidable.

I don't say that to downplay it or anything as I am well aware that KS has affected Soul Reapers with sensory abilities. That said, I don't see this being all that effective against Meliodas given his experience with Purgatory. I'll let the manga explain what Purgatory does to its inhabitants:

No Caption Provided

In Purgatory you lose all senses. Time is distorted to an insane degree, which also wouldn't exactly be too good for ones sensory abilities. On top of having to deal with that, your soul is being eaten away, the climate is extremely hot and cold simultaneously, and the earth itself is poisonous enough to destroy your flesh and bone. This is a place where Meliodas fought the Demon King over 6000 times over the course of 60 years (in Purgatory time). To paint a picture as to how such an environment affects Meliodas, here is Meliodas back in Purgatory right after dying at the hand of Estarossa:

No Caption Provided

There is no affect. Meliodas is completely laid back, non nonchalantly strolling through Purgatory while taunting his father. This hellish landscape is just scenery for Meliodas, having been there so many times after each time he is reborn. Given this does nothing to Meliodas, it's hard for me to see Aizen's sensory manipulation being game changing when Purgatory does that and so much more. A place that strips you of your senses and distorts time itself along with the toxic terrain is quite literally just a trip down memory lane for the Dragon Sin of Wrath. And as I already showed, he is more than capable of fighting in this setting.

If you want a visual as to how these factors affect the average person, look at Ban. The time distortion instigated a heavy sense of fatigue, Ban noting that it felt like he was fighting for decades. In fact, even fighting in distorted time is a feat in it of itself given how the implications of that on sensory capabilities. This is the first time we actually see Ban in Purgatory (before he adapted):

No Caption Provided

Ban's perception of reality and fantasy are dangerously intertwined to the point that he doesn't even remember what he has been doing. Ban was on the verge of losing his mind, and he had been in Purgatory for a good while at that point. The juxtaposition between Ban and Meliodas' reactions to Purgatory is very much present. Purgatory just flat out doesn't do anything to Meliodas, which makes me question the effectiveness of Aizen's sensory manipulation.

Another ability Aizen has is regeneration. I really don't see the point in bringing up regeneration. With Hellblaze, an power inherent to those of the Demon Race, Meliodas can wield fire that negates regeneration. Meliodas used this attack in conjuction with a sword to permanently scar Ban with a single slash:

No Caption Provided

From what you showed of Aizen's regeneration, Ban's should eclipse his. Healing from large holes in your body seems far more casual with Ban as compared to Aizen. But on top of that, Ban has blatantly superior regenerative feats like regenerating the entire upper half of his body after it was completely vaporized:

No Caption Provided

Needless to say, permanently scarring someone that can instantly regenerate from being vaporized is very impressive. Unless Aizen has more regenerative feats to his name, Hellblaze remains a hard counter to Aizen in that regard.

What's to Come

I'm leaving things here for now. My opponent likely has more to show and I don't want this post to be any longer than it already is. My goal for this opener was to set the building blocks for Meliodas' victory. In my next posts, I will take a deeper dive into Meliodas' versatility, skill, and how his overall fighting style compares to Aizen.

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Looks like this is shaping up to be a hard fought CAV

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Tag meh

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Wow I must commend the dude representing Meliodas. Superb work with Meliodas.Maestro did great too. Both sides have a lot to counter. It's gonna be a harder CAV than I expected.

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Counters // Aizen // Execution

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Counters I - Power

For the most part, I don't disagree with the arguments you made for Meliodas and your placement of his power, though there was one thing I disagree with.

Obviously, vaporizing sizable portions of rock yields high DC results, but that was just the outskirts of the AoE. In regards to vaporizing Danafor itself, Danafor is implied to be as big as Liones. From statements directly comparing the two as powerful kingdomsto an uncanny similarity in landscape and structure (1-2). These comparisons become important when assessing Liones' size.

This kind of size for Liones is supported by the fact that Liones has a capital city, which implies that the Kingdom itself is made up of multiple cities. The comparisons between Danafor and Liones actually makes it very clear that they are at the very least relative in size. A 3 mile radius (28 mile area) doesn't even cover all of Liones. As a summary, in addition to vaporizing large chunks of mountain, Meliodas vaporized an area that should be significantly larger than a 28 mile area.

What you showed doesn't suggest that Danafor is the same size Liones, at all. All it says is that Danafor was similar in power, no reference to size is made. And similarities in structure also don't mean much. Plus, I don't know why you even felt the need to do this when there are several shots showing the size of Danafor's crater in comparisons to mountains and such.

Regarding physicals, I am in a somewhat similar position.

Those two feats from Ban are solid island level showings which Meliodas handily scales above, even when not at his strongest.

Does Meliodas really scale that far above Ban? As I recall he was fighting the Demon King alongside Demon Mark Mel just fine, and he didn't seem much inferior. He had his Sacred Treasure then, sure, but his Sacred Treasure simply allows him to use his power better (as well as granting new abilities) IIRC, it's not an actual amp per se. Though I do think Mel should be stronger, especially in AM, I'm just not sure base Mel is that much stronger than Post-Purgatory Ban.

I'm aware I didn't show explicit physical feats in my opener, but Aizen is also far from lacking in this aspect, as is the case for most powerful Bleach characters.

As I mentioned in my opener, most of the Espada possess the power to destroy Las Noches, in particular when using Gran Rey Cero. When Grimmjow used this ability Halibel reprimanded him for doing so inside the Canopy in reference to Ulquiorra's later statement, but despite this, Bankai Hollow Mask Ichigo was able to casually block the GRC from Grimmjow with his raw physicals. Yet he is still far below Aizen physically (read right to left as usual).

Chapter 396: The Bite
Chapter 396: The Bite

When a much stronger Ichigo tried to fight Aizen, he found himself sorely lacking as Aizen deflects his Getsuga Tenshou with a casual backhand. For those unaware, Ichigo's Getsuga is a technique which involves concentrating and magnifying the user's spiritual energy. Meaning that the power of his Getsuga Tenshou is notably greater than that of his normal physical attacks. So in short, Aizen, before his Hogyoku amps, casually backhanded an attack significantly above baseline island level. I don't particularly want to get into a massive scaling contest but from what's been shown so far I'm inclined to say that Aizen has a physical advantage over Meliodas. Pre-Hogyoku Aizen also stopped a sword swing from Post-Ulqiorra fight Ichigo with his bare hand, so he's hardly lacking in physical durability, even to piercing attacks.

In terms of durability, I've already shown Meliodas' feat with his Darkness cloaked around his person. However, even without that, Meliodas is far from a glass canon. Quite the contrary in fact. When the Demon King inhabited Meliodas' body, Ban said that the Meliodas he knew was more powerful than DK Meliodas. Up until that point, DK Meliodas had tanked several blows from Ban, including the very island level feat we already discussed. So even an explicitly weaker form of Mel than the one I am using here could still tank numerous blows from a island level character. Even when Meliodas is at his strongest, he can still take hits from characters over his weight class. And by "over his weight class," I mean no selling his punches and blitzing the crap out of him. However, dozens of these blows only leave Meliodas with minor bruises and Meliodas is able to activate his Demon Mark mid blitz and return the favor:

This is nice and all but tanking island level hits means nothing even to pre-Hogyoku Aizen for one, and for two Aizen isn't going to be punching Meliodas, he's going to be attacking him with a sword. So some piercing durability feats would be nice.

Counters II - Speed

After returning from Purgatory, reclaiming his original body from the Demon King, Meliodas' power was at an all time high. This is reflected in his final battle against the Demon King, who had taken over the body of his younger brother, Zeldris. Elizabeth is sent flying into the air by a violent gust of wind. A natural lightning bolt then swoops down on Elizabeth. Before the lightning bolt could tag Elizabeth from, at most, two meters away, Meliodas (who was previously nowhere in sight) intercepts the bolt and reflects it. This was all done at such high speeds that the Demon King himself thought Elizabeth herself repelled the lightning.

It should go without saying that intercepting and reflecting a lightning bolt before it could tag Elizabeth from two meters away is a feat that would require dwarfing the speed of lightning (Mach 286). In fact, Meliodas would have to be dozens of times faster than lightning speed to statue it to that degree. The most conservative of estimates would put this feat at the high end quad mach range, but realistically it is comfortably low quint.

I didn't have any issues with your argumentation for Mel's speed barring this one part. My issue with is simply that I don't think you can definitively say that it's Quint Mach. Lightning is about Mach 286 as you said, so for this feat to be Quint Mach you'd have to prove that Meliodas covered 35 times the distance the lightning did or more. Which you can't do because Mel wasn't really that far away. Let's go through this.

Courtesy of Defiant_Will
Courtesy of Defiant_Will

Mel had entered Zeldris' mind to stop the Demon King controlling him, but his body was still right next to where the fight was taking place as we saw in Chapter 323. Then Meliodas leaves and returns to his real body at the end of 324. Meliodas' body was being held by Elizabeth and co immediately before she's swept up into the air in 325, meaning that he was directly below her, and we even see him in the panel where she's thrown into the air:

SDS Chapter 325
SDS Chapter 325

We then have two panels showing Diane and Merlin getting swept away by water before the lightning moves towards Elizabeth, and then the lightning is reflected. Since Mel can't fly in base, it's safe to say that he fell to the ground, woke up, and then reflected the lightning. The issue is that we don't know exactly when he woke up and started moving, as he could have started moving before the panel with the lightning a few metres away from Eli. But even if he moved after that, he still wasn't far away enough in the first place for you to justify him covering 35 times the distance that the lightning did.

Having said all that, I'm quite aware that I've only shown a single speed-feat (or rather scaling from a single speed-feat) for Aizen myself, so I'll show another speed feat that Aizen scales to, though it does require some explaining.

Chapter 499: Rescuer in the Dark
Chapter 499: Rescuer in the Dark

The feat in question is Fullbring Bankai Ichigo reacting to and blocking Quilge's arrows, the significance of which being that these arrows were able to cross the space between worlds in a very short space of time. The World of the Living, The Soul Society and Hueco Mundo are the three worlds in Bleach, and we see in Memories of Nobody that these are actual planets with a physical distance between them.

Bleach: Memories of Nobody
Bleach: Memories of Nobody

The above shows the World of the Living and the Soul Society, but Hueco Mundo should be a similar distance. Plus, it's also worth mentioning that the reason this was shown is that the worlds had been moving closer to one another, meaning that they're normally further away. Comparing this distance to the size of the World of the Living (which is earth) gives you a distance around 10,000km. Assuming a timeframe of a few seconds for Quilge's arrows, that means that Ichigo reacted to and blocked a projectile moving somewhere from Mach 6-10k. Which is pretty crazy given how this Ichigo treated them in the previous chapter:

Chapter 498: The Dark Rescuer
Chapter 498: The Dark Rescuer

Where he casually swats away six of them at once. Bringing this back to Aizen, his big fight was against Dangai Ichigo, a version significantly superior to Fullbring Bankai Ichigo who Ichigo doesn't approach in power until his True Shikai stages later in the series. Though Aizen was losing to Dangai Ichigo, he still was able to compete with him and was clearly approaching his status thanks to the Hogyoku's evolution. To summarise, this feat supports Aizen scaling hilariously above Gin's bankai and shows that even high quad mach speeds should be insignificant to him.

Counters III - Aizen's abilities

I don't say that to downplay it or anything as I am well aware that KS has affected Soul Reapers with sensory abilities. That said, I don't see this being all that effective against Meliodas given his experience with Purgatory. I'll let the manga explain what Purgatory does to its inhabitants:

In Purgatory you lose all senses. Time is distorted to an insane degree, which also wouldn't exactly be too good for ones sensory abilities. On top of having to deal with that, your soul is being eaten away, the climate is extremely hot and cold simultaneously, and the earth itself is poisonous enough to destroy your flesh and bone. This is a place where Meliodas fought the Demon King over 6000 times over the course of 60 years (in Purgatory time). To paint a picture as to how such an environment affects Meliodas, here is Meliodas back in Purgatory right after dying at the hand of Estarossa:

There is no affect. Meliodas is completely laid back, non nonchalantly strolling through Purgatory while taunting his father. This hellish landscape is just scenery for Meliodas, having been there so many times after each time he is reborn.

Yeah, this... isn't going to cut it. The first thing I'd like to bring up is the fact that that single page is the only time Purgatory is ever stated or shown to deprive one of the senses from what I've seen. I went back to look at the explanation for Purgatory and the time that Meliodas and Ban spent there and that page was the only reference given. There are numerous instances of reference to the time distortion or the toxic and deadly environment, but not of deprivation of senses. Heck, even when they talk about Ban having adapted to the climate in Purgatory this isn't mentioned.

SDS Chapter 270: A Meeting With The Unknown
SDS Chapter 270: A Meeting With The Unknown

It's this that leads me to believe that the loss of senses described in that scan is not in reference to Purgatory literal stopping your senses working, but more of a metaphorical one in the sense of losing track of yourself in the way that we saw Ban did. That or perhaps it's in reference to the time dilation, something which is repeatedly referred to in regard to Purgatory. This isn't my only issue, however.

Given this does nothing to Meliodas, it's hard for me to see Aizen's sensory manipulation being game changing when Purgatory does that and so much more. A place that strips you of your senses and distorts time itself along with the toxic terrain is quite literally just a trip down memory lane for the Dragon Sin of Wrath. And as I already showed, he is more than capable of fighting in this setting.

Even if I accept that Purgatory does literally negate your senses somehow, that still wouldn't allow Meliodas to resist KS because that's not what KS does. Aizen's ability isn't robbing you of your senses, he's manipulating the information that those senses convey. The reason it's called perfect Hypnosis is because it allows Aizen to create flawless illusions that you can't do anything about, even if you're aware of the ability. The last issue I have with this as a counter is that the page that states you lose all your senses also states that you must rely on your sixth sense, meaning that a sixth sense would allow one to be unaffected so to speak. Well, Aizen has used KS to trick people with sixth senses. All Soul Reapers have a sixth sense that allows them to detect spiritual energy, and KS works on them perfectly fine. Even better, KS was later able to completely fool Yhwach, even going as far as to manipulate the futures that he sees with the Almighty. So no, Meliodas surviving Purgatory isn't going to help him at all when it comes to resisting KS.

Another ability Aizen has is regeneration. I really don't see the point in bringing up regeneration. With Hellblaze, an power inherent to those of the Demon Race, Meliodas can wield fire that negates regeneration. Meliodas used this attack in conjuction with a sword to permanently scar Ban with a single slash:

From what you showed of Aizen's regeneration, Ban's should eclipse his. Healing from large holes in your body seems far more casual with Ban as compared to Aizen. But on top of that, Ban has blatantly superior regenerative feats like regenerating the entire upper half of his body after it was completely vaporized:

Needless to say, permanently scarring someone that can instantly regenerate from being vaporized is very impressive. Unless Aizen has more regenerative feats to his name, Hellblaze remains a hard counter to Aizen in that regard.

Hellblaze is certainly a potent ability, but it's not something that Meliodas uses often. So before he realises what Aizen can do it's unlikely that he'd use it. What's more important to note is that Aizen's apparent healing factor isn't actually regeneration, but a form of the Hogyoku's evolution, as he himself states to Ichigo. Given how much the Hogyoku altered Aizen's physical form, it's entirely possible that it would allow to effectively "heal" from a Hellblaze attack that injured him, especially given that we know Aizen's immortality is so great that it was impossible for the Soul Society to execute him. But I won't push this point too hard.

Regarding Aizen's versatility, I've noticed that intentional or otherwise you haven't countered Aizen's Kurohitsugi which's gravity distorts space and time that I briefly mentioned in my opener. This is an ability that Aizen uses in character so Meliodas will need something serious to be able to resist it.

Aizen should definitely win the fight from what's been shown so far. He's at least comparable in raw power, has arguably greater physicals, as well as an ability that allows him to completely control the flow of the battle.

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#36  Edited By defiant_will

Rebuttal | A Bloodline of Darkness

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My last post was focused on establishing Meliodas as a combatant, setting a baseline for stats, raw power, etc. For this post, I am going to take a deeper dive into not only Meliodas' combative abilities, but also how it relates to this fight, particularly how it stacks up against Aizen.

Maintaining Meliodas' Raw Power

Since this was the first point in my opener, it seems fitting to start off by addressing the counters made against Meliodas' raw power

"What you showed doesn't suggest that Danafor is the same size Liones, at all. All it says is that Danafor was similar in power, no reference to size is made. And similarities in structure also don't mean much. Plus, I don't know why you even felt the need to do this when there are several shots showing the size of Danafor's crater in comparisons to mountains and such."

This rebuttal reads a little to nitpicky for my liking. Sure, there is no explicit comparison between Danafor and Liones in regards to size. However, there are pretty clear cut implications that serve the same purpose. Danafor and Liones being comparable in power would suggest a relative size. "Power," as it pertains to kingdoms, is defined by resources, manpower, etc. All of these factors are correlated to the size of the kingdom. For example, the U.S. and China are both one of the most powerful countries in the world. And, as one would guess, they are very close in size, China edging out the U.S. in total land area by a mere 2.2%. The relation between a nation's "power" and its own size is one consistent with real world systems as well. The undeniable similarities in architecture and layout should make my assertion uncontested, especially on top of the other evidence presented. However, if you want to dismiss all of that, my argument remains relatively unchanged given the surrounding mountainous landscape, which would also make Danafor pretty damn big. Regardless of where one finds themselves on the Liones comparison, the Danafor feat still remains small country level.

"Does Meliodas really scale that far above Ban? As I recall he was fighting the Demon King alongside Demon Mark Mel just fine, and he didn't seem much inferior. He had his Sacred Treasure then, sure, but his Sacred Treasure simply allows him to use his power better (as well as granting new abilities) IIRC, it's not an actual amp per se. Though I do think Mel should be stronger, especially in AM, I'm just not sure base Mel is that much stronger than Post-Purgatory Ban."

This argument is flawed at a fundamental level when contextualized to the manga's power system. You call Meliodas' scaling above Ban (without Sacred Treasure mind you) into question by virtue of their showings against the Demon King. You then acknowledge that in that very instance Ban had his Sacred Treasure, a factor that would undoubtedly throw a wrench in your overall analysis. The problem arises when you disregard the Sacred Treasure aspect, claiming it doesn't give him a power boost. Maestro, as someone who I know has read NNT, I am quite surprised you made this argument.

Even since BoS, the series has been quite explicit in conveying just how much of a boost the Sacred Treasure affords the user. Its the reason why Guila thought King to be far stronger than Ban and even Meliodas himself. Without a Sacred Treasure, or even a weapon, one can only draw out a hand scoop's worth of magic. Bare in mind, with the island level feats presented for Ban, who had neither a Sacred Treasure or a weapon. With a Sacred Treasure, one could draw out a house's worth of magic. Meliodas' showings against the Albion further establishes the vast disparity in power. Wielding a normal sword, which would afford him a mug's worth of magic, he barely left a mark on an Albion. However, with Meliodas' Sacred Treasure, he easily cuts the Albion's arm into pieces. Ban's own Sacred Treasure is explicitly stated to boost Ban's "range, speed and force." The description goes onto say that it pushes its user to their maximum level.

No Caption Provided

Needless to say, it is unwise to dismiss the boost wielding a Sacred Treasure would afford Ban. As I said before, Meliodas scales significantly above Ban's island level feats, which were performed completely unarmed. To use Ban's showing with a Sacred Treasure in an attempt to minimize this gap is inherently flawed. As I showed in my opener, Meliodas scales quite a ways above Ban. Remember the showing where Meliodas overpowers the Demon King's grip, when Ban could not? As I said before, that was accomplished by a Meliodas significantly weaker than the one I am using, and even then, the difference in strength between that Meliodas and Ban was made clear.

"So in short, Aizen, before his Hogyoku amps, casually backhanded an attack significantly above baseline island level. I don't particularly want to get into a massive scaling contest but from what's been shown so far I'm inclined to say that Aizen has a physical advantage over Meliodas."

I don't think this conclusion is the most fair. If anything, I would say that Meliodas holds the edge. Both characters casually displayed physical superiority to island level + characters while in a far weaker form. Aizen hit away an attack from Ichigo before his amp. Meliodas overpowered a grip even Ban could not escape from before returning to his body. However, Meliodas scales far higher above this level of strength than Aizen due to his Demon Marks and his Assault Mode. In addition to Meliodas flat out being weaker than even his base form in just his emotions state.

"This is nice and all but tanking island level hits means nothing even to pre-Hogyoku Aizen for one, and for two Aizen isn't going to be punching Meliodas, he's going to be attacking him with a sword. So some piercing durability feats would be nice."

For one, to say Meliodas only tanked "island level hits" is a bit misleading. The only instance I showed of Meliodas tanking island level hits was when the Demong King took over his body. It was that Meliodas that tanked island level punches from Ban. This version of Meliodas was explicitly stated to be weaker than the Meliodas I am using in this CaV. So a weaker version of Meliodas was the one tanking those island level hits. Against DK Zeldris, that's a different case entirely. It shows that Meliodas can tank hits from beings way out of his weight class. Said weight class is already on the higher end of the island level spectrum given how he scales off of (unarmed) Ban.

As for piercing durability, you will find that it is very similar to his blunt force durability. Meliodas has shown he can tank superior piercing output to his own with superficial injuries. This is once again shown with DK Zeldris, where Zeldris overpowers Meliodas during their intense trade of blows, tagging him with a powerful slash to the chest. When the dust settles, Meliodas is left with a small cut to tell the tale:

No Caption Provided

Unless you think wielding a massive sword would lessen DK Zeldris' AP, I would assert that Meliodas can tank piercing attacks far above island level as well. After all, the power of a sword slash is relative to the wielder's own physical strength. Thus, I find it unlikely that Zeldris' punches are that much stronger than his sword attacks. That said, piercing durability isn't exactly needed for Meliodas given his own healing factor.

Defending Meliodas' Speed

To be quite honest, I didn't expect this level of pushback against quint mach Meliodas. I myself find the feat to be handily at that speed, so it seems I will have to elaborate as to why:

Let's reexamine the feat, Elizabeth is sent dozens of feet into the air as lightning swoops down. The last shot of lightning before Meliodas intercepts shows it a good 3 or 4 feet away from Elizabeth. Right before that shot, Meliodas is seen falling to the ground:

Courtesy of MaestroMage
Courtesy of MaestroMage

As you admitted, Meliodas can't fly in base form so he would have had to fall down and then jump back up. The problem for you is that Meliodas doesn't fall at MHS speeds. This may seem like stating the obvious, but it is something you didn't really consider. As a Mach 286 lightning bolt is making headway on Elizabeth, Meliodas is sacrificing precious time having to fall down a dozen or so feet, recover, and then jump back up. That in mind, this assertion becomes moot:

"The issue is that we don't know exactly when he woke up and started moving, as he could have started moving before the panel with the lightning a few metres away from Eli."

It doesn't matter if Meliodas recovered as he was falling, before the lightning bolt was meters away from Elizabeth. You already admitted Meliodas can't fly in base. So Meliodas would still have to fall a dozen feet and then jump back up to save Elizabeth. I'd like to again emphasize that Meliodas having to fall a dozen feet as the lightning bolt is coming down is a significant sacrifice of time on his part considering a Mach 286 lightning bolt is descending from the clouds simultaneously. With such high speeds, every second, every fraction of a second counts, time that is wasted with Meliodas' fall. Anyway, after the shown panel, we then see Elizabeth mere feet away from the lightning bolt. The very next page it is redirected from an insanely close distance.

So to summarize, regardless of when Meliodas recovered, the fact of the matter is that he would have only had the time to move when the lightning was a few meters away from Elizabeth. In the time Meliodas was falling, the lightning bolt covered an insane distance, and it was only after that distance was covered that Meliodas recovered from the fall and jumped back up, intercepting it. With that established, let's delve deeper into the speeds required to accomplish this feat:

The lightning bolt (Mach 286) was literally 3-4 feet away from Elizabeth. Elizabeth, as shown in the panel presented, was easily dozens of feet into the air. So Meliodas had to jump dozens of feet into the air before the lightning bolt could tag Elizabeth from a few feet away. Hell, he had to jump a little higher to get in front of Elizabeth. After that, he had to move his arm in an arc to deflect the lightning bolt, which would require his arm to move several feet before the lightning bolt could cross any distance. I don't think it is exaggeration to say Meliodas would have to move 35 times the speed of the lightning bolt given the height he had to reach as compared to the distance the lightning crossed in addition to his sword swing outspeeding the lightning bolt by a significant margin.

Heck, I don't understand why this feat would be quad mach, seeing how it moved FTE to DK Zeldris, who is already high into the quad mach ranges himself. Zeldris thought that Elizabeth herself had reflected the lightning. Meliodas moved FTE to such an extent that Zeldris couldn't perceive any of his movements and was then immediately tagged by Meliodas' attack. Moving massively FTE to DK Zeldris lends further credence to the feat not capping at quad mach.

As for your Aizen scaling, it boils down to Aizen losing to an Ichigo superior to the one who blocked quad-quint mach attacks. I'd argue that Meliodas scales far more concretely above said quad-quint mach speeds. Even if I said Mel's base form is high end quad mach, I showed his Demon Mark alone offers a massive power boost as shown against Ban. And that's not even getting into the boost AM would provide. You are scaling Aizen above quad-quint mach speeds based on losing to a superior Ichigo:

"Though Aizen was losing to Dangai Ichigo, he still was able to compete with him and was clearly approaching his status thanks to the Hogyoku's evolution."

Merely "approaching" the version of Ichigo that scales above quad-quint mach is nowhere near as concrete as Meliodas' own power ups and transformations that quite explicitly puts him well beyond the speed feats in his base form, already comparable to the feat you showed for Ichigo. As such, from a scaling perspective, I find Meliodas to scale higher than Aizen quite convincingly. Fullbring Bankai Ichigo has a similar feat to base form Meliodas. Based on what you've shown, Aizen vaguely scales above him by "approaching" the status of a superior form. Meanwhile Meliodas can flat out boost his power with his Demon powers. Thus, if anyone were to have a speed advantage in this fight, it would be Meliodas.

Counters to Aizen's Abilities

To be blunt, I found your argument against the Purgatory feat to be completely baseless. Your argument boiled down to this:

The first thing I'd like to bring up is the fact that that single page is the only time Purgatory is ever stated or shown to deprive one of the senses from what I've seen

As if to imply that the repetition in statements should denote if Purgatory actually robs one of their senses. As a rebuttal, this makes little sense to me. The first time we are given a description of Purgatory's affects, the sensory aspect is brought up. Bare in mind that was when Merlin was giving a run down to the rest of the Sins of the dangers of Purgatory, Merlin herself being one of the most knowledgeable in the series about the supernatural (for lack of a better word). And you expect me to disregard her explanation because it isn't repeatedly stated by Ban? It'd be different if there was an explicit contradiction to her explanation, but there isn't. The only "contradiction" you've brought up is Ban not referencing it 24/7. Just as plausible an alternative as the Purgatory's lack of sensory negation is the fact that Ban/Meliodas were so accustomed to operating without senses that it didn't faze them. In contrast, the conclusion you come to is flat out invalid:

"It's this that leads me to believe that the loss of senses described in that scan is not in reference to Purgatory literal stopping your senses working, but more of a metaphorical one in the sense of losing track of yourself in the way that we saw Ban did. That or perhaps it's in reference to the time dilation, something which is repeatedly referred to in regard to Purgatory. This isn't my only issue, however."

I don't understand how Merlin's explanation could have been lost in translation. Look at the scan again. Merlin is clearly describing every single dangerous aspect of Purgatory's environment. These explanations are all quite literal. The time distortion is explicitly explained along with the fluctuation in temperature and poisonous air. So I don't understand why the explanations of senses is interpreted as "losing track of yourself." That doesn't make much sense to me. This is the statement:

No Caption Provided

The statement above explicitly makes reference to conventional senses. It talks about losing all senses and reliance on the sixth sense, which is a direct reference to the five senses. What about the above statement implies getting lost? Or even time distortion? You lose your senses and have to rely on another sense. Quite straightforward. No reference to getting lost, which isn't remotely implied. Time is also not implied anywhere in that statement. To be honest, this argument really seems like you are grasping at straws. Which only becomes more apparent with your next counter to Purgatory:

"Even if I accept that Purgatory does literally negate your senses somehow, that still wouldn't allow Meliodas to resist KS because that's not what KS does. Aizen's ability isn't robbing you of your senses, he's manipulating the information that those senses convey. The reason it's called perfect Hypnosis is because it allows Aizen to create flawless illusions that you can't do anything about, even if you're aware of the ability."

KS manipulates senses, I know. However, I've shown how Purgatory affected Ban mentally, creating similar illusions with spontaneous hallucinations of Elaine. He literally lost track of what he has been doing due to this. As such, I don't think it is completely fair to say that KS would be effective against Meliodas, who practically ignores the Purgatory environment. Moreover, if one can fight with their senses completely negated on top of time distortion and other factors, what good are subtle sensory changes going to do? Meliodas doesn't even need his senses to fight, as shown when he fought the Demon King in Purgatory. To assume that Meliodas has such a reliance on his senses to the point that he will be completely manipulated by KS is blatantly contradicted by his showings within Purgatory.

"The last issue I have with this as a counter is that the page that states you lose all your senses also states that you must rely on your sixth sense, meaning that a sixth sense would allow one to be unaffected so to speak. Well, Aizen has used KS to trick people with sixth senses. All Soul Reapers have a sixth sense that allows them to detect spiritual energy, and KS works on them perfectly fine. Even better, KS was later able to completely fool Yhwach, even going as far as to manipulate the futures that he sees with the Almighty. So no, Meliodas surviving Purgatory isn't going to help him at all when it comes to resisting KS."

I don't understand this argument in the slightest. You are basically conflating two completely different in verse mechanics as you please. Maestro, a "sixth senses" is such a vague description that varies massively from verse to verse. Simply being referred to as a "sixth sense" doesn't automatically make KS effective, especially since said "sixth sense" hasn't even been fully explained within NNT. Realistically, this "sixth sense" has to do with battle intuition. You can't concretely prove that this "sixth sense" is akin to the spiritual sensory abilities in Bleach, nor like Yhwach's Almighty. This whole comparison stems from an inherently ambiguous descriptor too faulty to justify your argument.

Moving on, I want to address your counters against Hellblaze, specifically as it pertains to Aizen's regeneration:

"Hellblaze is certainly a potent ability, but it's not something that Meliodas uses often. So before he realises what Aizen can do it's unlikely that he'd use it."

This flat out isn't true Maestro, and I think you know this. Meliodas has used Hellblaze quite consistently:

  1. Against Dale
  2. Against Fodder
  3. Against Drole
  4. Against Fraudrin

Just to name a few. I'd also like to point out that it isn't hard for Meliodas to integrate Hellblaze into his attacks after seeing Aizen regenerate from his other ones. Not to mention that Aizen's appearance looks more like a demon than anything, so I don't find it unlikely for Meliodas to resort to these attacks from jump.

"What's more important to note is that Aizen's apparent healing factor isn't actually regeneration, but a form of the Hogyoku's evolution, as he himself states to Ichigo. Given how much the Hogyoku altered Aizen's physical form, it's entirely possible that it would allow to effectively "heal" from a Hellblaze attack that injured him, especially given that we know Aizen's immortality is so great that it was impossible for the Soul Society to execute him. But I won't push this point too hard."

I don't understand this. The origin of the healing factor can be different, but that doesn't mean anything. Ban drank from the Fountain of Youth, Demons are just that way biologically, and Aizen can "evolve" his body. However, functionally, all three possess healing factors that are basically regeneration. What's important to note is that Hellblaze doesn't specifically neg Demons or the Fountain of Youth. It negs healing factors in general, the origins of the healing factors are borderline irrelevant. As such, I don't think Aizen can heal from a Hellblaze attack, especially when you are attributing that to his immortality. Ban's immortality is his most infamous trait, to the point that even vaporizing half of his body doesn't do anything to him. And as I showed, Meliodas permanently scarred Ban with one Hellblaze attack.

"Regarding Aizen's versatility, I've noticed that intentional or otherwise you haven't countered Aizen's Kurohitsugi which's gravity distorts space and time that I briefly mentioned in my opener. This is an ability that Aizen uses in character so Meliodas will need something serious to be able to resist it."

It seems you are emphasizing the space and time distortion aspect of the Kurohitsugi. Unfortunately for you, Meliodas has dealt with these kinds of attacks before and has been able to fight, relatively unhindered. This comes from his encounter with the Chaos King, where Arthur lost control and did this:

No Caption Provided

Meliodas was still shown to be able to fight under Arthur's distorted time space without much trouble. This is shown again against Cath and his Chaos King powers:

No Caption Provided

I'd like to note that you've only shown Aizen stating that his Kurohitsugi distorts time and space. I am not saying that to imply it doesn't do that, however. I am just noting that because the Chaos King's powers are quite explicit in how they distort time and space to a massive degree, to the point that reality itself is obscured. How Aizen's own time and space distortion stacks up against this is quite vague given that you've only presented a statement thus far. Based on that, I am confident in saying that the Kurohitsugi isn't exactly a game changer.

Pressing Meliodas' Abilities

To close this post out, I'd like to present the skills and abilities I didn't mention in my opener. I think a significant one to touch on is skill. In regards to skill, Meliodas is often underrated despite his pretty impressive showings. It was Meliodas' own training that bred Gilthunder into the high ranking Holy Knight he is today. His own masterful swordplay makes him overqualified for the role of teacher:

No Caption Provided

Even with the Galan showing where Meliodas blitzed the hell out of him, he didn't use wild sword swings. His attacks were precise, slashing him in just the right areas to incapacitate him, rendering him unable to move. Meliodas' skill has been quite consistent, both armed and unarmed.

Take his fight with Griamore for example. A distraction as subtle as a falling tea cup is more than enough for Meliodas to stop the draw of his sword before immediately following up with a nerve strike. He then easily outmaneuvers Griamore's attacks and hits him with the knock out blow to the neck.

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Meliodas' abilities in H2H are so masterful that he can attack and defend himself simultaneously. Like when he deflected the punches of his opponent while targeting their joints to break their bones:

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Meliodas has actually used such a tactic in tandem with his own swordplay. Like against Drole, where he counters each strike with such precision that it compromises Drole's balance, sending his arms flying violently backwards. This creates the opening needed to land a powerful slash with Lostvayne.

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Meliodas exemplifies such skill once more with how he easily dismantles Escanor. He dodges and deflects Escanor's axe attacks before landing a disorienting knee to the face. He follows up with a slash to the neck, but is blocked. However, Meliodas is still able to capitalize on his combative positioning to ragdoll Escanor away and create an opening. This opening is capitalized on when Escanor charges at him and Meliodas ducks under and stabs him.

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In that same fight, Meliodas exemplified how good he is at disarming his opponents as well. Like against Escanor, where he optimizes the hindered visibility created by the Cruel Sun explosion by throwing his weapon. This elicits an unconscious reaction from Escanor, blocking the attack, but leaving him open to a full power knee attack to his hand, causing him to drop his weapon. Meliodas then immediately follows up with a flash to the chest.

No Caption Provided

I went into such detail with Meliodas' skill because of how well it extends to his other abilities. As of now, Aizen doesn't have much of a work around to counter Meliodas' clear skill advantage, which means that Meliodas is more likely to land powerful strikes. This becomes even worst when this skill can extend to Meliodas' powers like Full Counter.

Meliodas Full Counter allows him to reflect magic attacks back at the opponent with even more power. Since energies are equalized, such an attack will be effective against Aizen's projectiles. Meliodas has used this ability to devastating effect in the midst of combat. Just look at his fight against Derieri and Monspeet. As Meliodas is fighting with Derieri on the ground, Monspeet fires off a fire attack from overhead. Seeing this, Meliodas immediately kicks Monspeet up to Derieri and Full Counters the attack back at both of them, with such speed that neither can dodge it.

No Caption Provided

From this, one can see how advantageous skill can become when possessing an ability like Full Counter. Meliodas' uncanny skill for creating openings with precise and calculated attacks perfectly complements his own magic, which could create major problems for Aizen. To go further in depth, Meliodas' own angling and positioning with Full Counter is extremely precise as well. Take his fight against the Demon King, where he kept Full Countering the combo attack from all of the Sins to fire it off from the perfect angle so that the Lake would absorb the residual magic:

No Caption Provided

Again, a testament to Meliodas' methodological accuracy with his ability. This sentiment applies to his application of Darkness as well. Like when Meliodas concentrated his Darkness into a small area, vaporizing the landscape and killing a vampire.

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Meliodas can also manipulate the Darkness into different forms, be it claws or blades. The versatility afforded by these transformations only serves to supplement his own exceptional skill. This gives him an invaluable advantage in CQC, an even bigger advantage at a range via AoE or Full Counter.

===================================================================================

From what I'm gathering, Aizen doesn't really have much beyond KS. By that I mean that, since Mel won't be effected by it, Aizen doesn't really have the "trump card" he is so use to abusing. Mel is more skilled and has means of deflecting Aizen's projectiles. He holds a physical advantage and can use Hellblaze to get past regen. Darkness supplements the physical advantage and skill along with cementing his superiority in the ranged battle.

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#38 EcoBlitz  Online

Good post overall

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How have I missed this, TAEP

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Counter Post #2 // Aizen // The Edge of Reason

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Counters I - Aizen's Power vs Meliodas' Power

This rebuttal reads a little to nitpicky for my liking. Sure, there is no explicit comparison between Danafor and Liones in regards to size. However, there are pretty clear cut implications that serve the same purpose.

Nitpicky? How is it nitpicky to contest Danafor and Liones being the same size simply because they used to be similar in power?

Danafor and Liones being comparable in power would suggest a relative size. "Power," as it pertains to kingdoms, is defined by resources, manpower, etc. All of these factors are correlated to the size of the kingdom. For example, the U.S. and China are both one of the most powerful countries in the world. And, as one would guess, they are very close in size, China edging out the U.S. in total land area by a mere 2.2%. The relation between a nation's "power" and its own size is one consistent with real world systems as well. The undeniable similarities in architecture and layout should make my assertion uncontested, especially on top of the other evidence presented.

The structure of a setting has no real bearing on size. Cities can have a similar structure whilst remaining wildly different in size. You do make a reasonable point regarding the power relating to resources and manpower, but it's still slightly off in this setting. "Power" in the setting of NNT is most likely about Holy Knights. Given how powerful HKs are compared to ordinary manpower, you'd only need a relative "handful" of them to make up a Kingdom's military force. Meaning there's no actual need for Danafor to have a similar population to Liones, they'd only need to get somewhat lucky in the Holy Knights department, especially given the relatively small scale of these Kingdoms. Now you could say that nothing is suggesting they got "lucky" with their HKs to which I'd reply that there's nothing that explicitly states that they're similar in size either. It is entirely possible and plausible in this setting for Danafor to be equal in power to Liones without being the same size.

However, if you want to dismiss all of that, my argument remains relatively unchanged given the surrounding mountainous landscape, which would also make Danafor pretty damn big. Regardless of where one finds themselves on the Liones comparison, the Danafor feat still remains small country level.

Which is why I'm confused as to why you even brought this up in the first place.

This argument is flawed at a fundamental level when contextualized to the manga's power system. You call Meliodas' scaling above Ban (without Sacred Treasure mind you) into question by virtue of their showings against the Demon King. You then acknowledge that in that very instance Ban had his Sacred Treasure, a factor that would undoubtedly throw a wrench in your overall analysis. The problem arises when you disregard the Sacred Treasure aspect, claiming it doesn't give him a power boost. Maestro, as someone who I know has read NNT, I am quite surprised you made this argument.

You should know me better by now than to doubt my poor memory.

Needless to say, it is unwise to dismiss the boost wielding a Sacred Treasure would afford Ban. As I said before, Meliodas scales significantly above Ban's island level feats, which were performed completely unarmed. To use Ban's showing with a Sacred Treasure in an attempt to minimize this gap is inherently flawed. As I showed in my opener, Meliodas scales quite a ways above Ban. Remember the showing where Meliodas overpowers the Demon King's grip, when Ban could not? As I said before, that was accomplished by a Meliodas significantly weaker than the one I am using, and even then, the difference in strength between that Meliodas and Ban was made clear.

I will gladly concede this point because I genuinely didn't remember.

I don't think this conclusion is the most fair. If anything, I would say that Meliodas holds the edge. Both characters casually displayed physical superiority to island level + characters while in a far weaker form. Aizen hit away an attack from Ichigo before his amp. Meliodas overpowered a grip even Ban could not escape from before returning to his body. However, Meliodas scales far higher above this level of strength than Aizen due to his Demon Marks and his Assault Mode. In addition to Meliodas flat out being weaker than even his base form in just his emotions state.

I disagree with this assessment, but I also acknowledge the fact that I haven't properly expanded on Aizen's growth in power due to the Hogyoku, something which I intend to rectify now.

This will be kinda long so I'll give a TLDR at the end.

Before his evolution, Aizen is seen fighting Isshin with somewhat parity, though Isshin seems to be slightly superior as later in the fights he notes Aizen is slowing down and is "reaching his limit". It's at this point that Aizen starts to physically evolve and it's also at this point that backup arrives for Isshin in the form of Urahara, and later Yoruichi. From this point onwards Aizen is more or less constantly evolving as the fights continue, going through almost 5 different forms.

Aizen's fight with the trio goes on for a few chapters so I'll try to summarise it. The three of them had quite clearly prepared extensively for the fight, with Yoruichi showing up wearing special armour and with them constantly displaying combo attacks they had (presumably) come up with beforehand. Once again it's worth noting how Isshin alone was fighting Aizen solo earlier and Aizen later implies that Urahara used to be comparable to himself. Emphasis on used because despite all their prep and teamwork and even individual power the trio fails to do anything of note to Aizen. Aizen displays his superiority throughout the fight, whether it be by stating that a Kido in the 90s (ala Kurohitsugi and the one Yama previously harmed him with) isn't worth dodging (as he face-tanks it), or through his speed, nigh blitzing them casually more than once. Isshin even states that he can no longer even detect Aizen's spiritual power due to his evolution. It goes beyond simply having better stats however, as his evolving self makes it naturally hard to beat. At one point in the fight, Urahara even manages to cause Aizen's power to double back on itself, burning him from the inside and... it does nothing. Suffice to say even his initial evolution lead to a drastic increase in all areas, and Aizen ended the fight with seeming ease offscreen after tanking the trio's back to back attacks.

Aizen then comes out of this "chrysalis" stage (Condom Aizen) as his physical form now shows his face once again (Rockstar Aizen). The following feat I mentioned in my opener but I'm showing it again to properly explain the significance of it.

Chapter 407: DECIDE 9
Chapter 407: DECIDE 9

On their journey to the Soul Society, Aizen kills Kototsu by Reiatsu crushing it. The significance of this is that Kototsu is generally a being that is considered beyond soul reapers. As Isshin explains, as well as Gin above, Kototsu is "a creature of reason" who would normally kill any soul reaper it comes into contact with by displacing them through time. It's something that the soul society can't really deal with. Yet Aizen, whilst still only partway through his evolution thanks to the Hogyoku, is able to "kill" it with his spiritual energy. In short, Aizen's casual passive energy is enough to defeat beings beyond the Soul Society and far beyond the level of power he used to be at.

The next two of Aizen's evolutions are relatively short-lived, but his next form is able to tank a slash from Dangai Ichigo despite him being strong enough to stop Aizen's sword swing barehanded and backhand Kurohitsugi. Following this Aizen evolves once again and becomes strong enough to badly burn Ichigo's arm with a single attack, once again shown a significant increase in power.

TLDR? Aizen's "amp" that you speak of isn't a single clear cut amp but more a series of at least four distinct evolutions, each of which increases his abilities significantly, so it would erroneous to claim that Meliodas scales higher above island level physicals because of Demon Mark + AM when Aizen has more transformations if you want to look at it like that. I also think you're underselling Aizen's feat against Ichigo somewhat.

Aizen hit away an attack from Ichigo before his amp. Meliodas overpowered a grip even Ban could not escape from before returning to his body.

Mel's feat is a clear simple case of him overpowering Ban (indirectly). Looking at Aizen however, he casually backhanded a Getsuga Tensho despite a much weaker Ichigo arguably having island level physicals. GT, as I mentioned, is a technique that focuses and concentrates one's spiritual power, meaning that it would naturally be more powerful than his raw physicals, and this is what Aizen backhanded.

All of this scaling above island level aside, I think Aizen should have better physicals regardless. The reason for this being that all of Aizen's abilities physicals included are fueled by his spiritual power. And we've seen that power demonstrated several times from his scaling above the Espada or Yamamoto and then some or through his Reiatsu crushing of Kototsu and his casual Fragor. All of that power can be put towards his physicals, especially thanks to the Hogyoku, which means that Aizen's physical power should be in the small country level range comfortably.

For one, to say Meliodas only tanked "island level hits" is a bit misleading. The only instance I showed of Meliodas tanking island level hits was when the Demong King took over his body. It was that Meliodas that tanked island level punches from Ban. This version of Meliodas was explicitly stated to be weaker than the Meliodas I am using in this CaV. So a weaker version of Meliodas was the one tanking those island level hits. Against DK Zeldris, that's a different case entirely. It shows that Meliodas can tank hits from beings way out of his weight class. Said weight class is already on the higher end of the island level spectrum given how he scales off of (unarmed) Ban.

Regardless, island level anything isn't of any note to this Aizen. Unless you're going to quantify exactly how much weaker he was there than he is here then this isn't relevant.

As for piercing durability, you will find that it is very similar to his blunt force durability. Meliodas has shown he can tank superior piercing output to his own with superficial injuries. This is once again shown with DK Zeldris, where Zeldris overpowers Meliodas during their intense trade of blows, tagging him with a powerful slash to the chest. When the dust settles, Meliodas is left with a small cut to tell the tale:

And what exactly is his own output? As I understand it DK Zel is slightly stronger than Demon Mark Mel who is > Base Mel > island level Ban correct? So perhaps somewhere in the Large Island level range? Don't mistake this for me trying to restrict Mel's durability by tiers, I'm simply trying to get a better gauge of the significance of these feats. That aside, this is an impressive showing but not something that means Aizen will struggle to put Mel down, especially when he was cut, small though it may be.

Unless you think wielding a massive sword would lessen DK Zeldris' AP, I would assert that Meliodas can tank piercing attacks far above island level as well. After all, the power of a sword slash is relative to the wielder's own physical strength. Thus, I find it unlikely that Zeldris' punches are that much stronger than his sword attacks. That said, piercing durability isn't exactly needed for Meliodas given his own healing factor.

Meliodas' healing factor isn't exactly a healing factor. It allows demons to pull their body together if they get cut apart but it doesn't actually get rid of the damage dealt, nor would it allow Meliodas to heal from his heart(s) being destroyed.

Counters II - Aizen's Speed vs Meliodas' Speed

To be quite honest, I didn't expect this level of pushback against quint mach Meliodas. I myself find the feat to be handily at that speed, so it seems I will have to elaborate as to why:

Let's reexamine the feat, Elizabeth is sent dozens of feet into the air as lightning swoops down. The last shot of lightning before Meliodas intercepts shows it a good 3 or 4 feet away from Elizabeth. Right before that shot, Meliodas is seen falling to the ground:

As you admitted, Meliodas can't fly in base form so he would have had to fall down and then jump back up. The problem for you is that Meliodas doesn't fall at MHS speeds. This may seem like stating the obvious, but it is something you didn't really consider. As a Mach 286 lightning bolt is making headway on Elizabeth, Meliodas is sacrificing precious time having to fall down a dozen or so feet, recover, and then jump back up. That in mind, this assertion becomes moot:

The lightning hadn't appeared by this panel so this is irrelevant.

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Elizabeth is midair, then we have two panels of Merlin and Diane struggling with the water, and then we see the lightning. Meliodas very easily could have and in all likelihood would have already hit the ground by the point that the lightning appears. Even without this, your argument still doesn't make sense.

As a Mach 286 lightning bolt is making headway on Elizabeth, Meliodas is sacrificing precious time having to fall down a dozen or so feet, recover, and then jump back up.

Meliodas not falling at MHS speeds as you pointed out would mean that if he's still midair when the lightning bolt came down then it would have hit Elizabeth before he reaches the ground, pure and simple. The lightning would go from the cloud to her in a fraction of a second and Mel wouldn't fall fast enough to do anything.

It doesn't matter if Meliodas recovered as he was falling, before the lightning bolt was meters away from Elizabeth. You already admitted Meliodas can't fly in base. So Meliodas would still have to fall a dozen feet and then jump back up to save Elizabeth. I'd like to again emphasize that Meliodas having to fall a dozen feet as the lightning bolt is coming down is a significant sacrifice of time on his part considering a Mach 286 lightning bolt is descending from the clouds simultaneously. With such high speeds, every second, every fraction of a second counts, time that is wasted with Meliodas' fall. Anyway, after the shown panel, we then see Elizabeth mere feet away from the lightning bolt. The very next page it is redirected from an insanely close distance.

Again, Meliodas can't have still been in the air when the lightning bolt was coming down or else the feat would literally be impossible. The point I was making earlier is that Meliodas could have woken up in the 2 panels before we see the lightning a few feet away from Elizabeth. As in, he could already have been moving by that point.

In the time Meliodas was falling, the lightning bolt covered an insane distance, and it was only after that distance was covered that Meliodas recovered from the fall and jumped back up, intercepting it.

Once again I must ask, how do you know that the lightning bolt moved before Mel hit the ground? Mel is in mid-air panel 1, then we get 2 panels of Diane and Merlin, and then the lightning is very close to Elizabeth. We didn't see the lightning before this so we don't know when it started moving nor when exactly Meliodas hit the ground so you can't assert that Mel was still falling when the lightning came down because nothing suggests that.

The lightning bolt (Mach 286) was literally 3-4 feet away from Elizabeth. Elizabeth, as shown in the panel presented, was easily dozens of feet into the air. So Meliodas had to jump dozens of feet into the air before the lightning bolt could tag Elizabeth from a few feet away. Hell, he had to jump a little higher to get in front of Elizabeth. After that, he had to move his arm in an arc to deflect the lightning bolt, which would require his arm to move several feet before the lightning bolt could cross any distance. I don't think it is exaggeration to say Meliodas would have to move 35 times the speed of the lightning bolt given the height he had to reach as compared to the distance the lightning crossed in addition to his sword swing outspeeding the lightning bolt by a significant margin.

There's one key part here; "Dozens of feet in the air". I'm not saying I disagree with this assessment because I don't, but it is somewhat vague. Dozens could be 24 or it could be 84, and it makes a big difference when your core argument relies on Mel moving 35 times the distance the lightning did. Based on her being 3-4 feet away from the lightning bolt, Meliodas would have to have moved 105 feet. Sword swing or such aside, Meliodas simply didn't have that far to move. For size comparison:

No Caption Provided

I've tried to line up Merlin (who was on the ground) with the human on this diagram, and Elizabeth is nowhere close to 100 feet high. She's maybe 40 feet high, which would make Mel's feat not even close to quint.

Heck, I don't understand why this feat would be quad mach, seeing how it moved FTE to DK Zeldris, who is already high into the quad mach ranges himself. Zeldris thought that Elizabeth herself had reflected the lightning. Meliodas moved FTE to such an extent that Zeldris couldn't perceive any of his movements and was then immediately tagged by Meliodas' attack. Moving massively FTE to DK Zeldris lends further credence to the feat not capping at quad mach.

This is completely unrelated to Mel outspeeding the lightning for one, and for two base Mel being FTE to DK Zel isn't even remotely consistent. You yourself showed DK Zel beating out Demon Mark Mel in this same post as well as him blitzing base Mel in your opener. A more likely explanation is simply just that DK Zel didn't see what happened because he was fighting Escanor, King and Ban at the same time this happened. So base Mel isn't Quint Mach in any regard, at all.

As for your Aizen scaling, it boils down to Aizen losing to an Ichigo superior to the one who blocked quad-quint mach attacks. I'd argue that Meliodas scales far more concretely above said quad-quint mach speeds. Even if I said Mel's base form is high end quad mach, I showed his Demon Mark alone offers a massive power boost as shown against Ban. And that's not even getting into the boost AM would provide. You are scaling Aizen above quad-quint mach speeds based on losing to a superior Ichigo:

Merely "approaching" the version of Ichigo that scales above quad-quint mach is nowhere near as concrete as Meliodas' own power ups and transformations that quite explicitly puts him well beyond the speed feats in his base form, already comparable to the feat you showed for Ichigo. As such, from a scaling perspective, I find Meliodas to scale higher than Aizen quite convincingly. Fullbring Bankai Ichigo has a similar feat to base form Meliodas. Based on what you've shown, Aizen vaguely scales above him by "approaching" the status of a superior form. Meanwhile Meliodas can flat out boost his power with his Demon powers. Thus, if anyone were to have a speed advantage in this fight, it would be Meliodas.

Fullbring Bankai Ichigo's feat is just better than Meliodas', straight up. Each of Quilge's arrows individually should be moving faster than base Mel's feat would suggest, and Ichigo swatted a barrage of them away with ease. And Fullbring Bankai Ichigo is notably below this Aizen. For one, Ichigo only gets towards his Dangai levels again when he acquires his True Shikai, which is far above Fullbring Bankai. Far as in going from fighting with random Sternritters to being able to compete with Soul King Yhwach. For an alternative example, Yamamoto was able to casually intercept and knock aside an arrow from another Sternritter, and this is the same Yamamoto that Aizen fought before even evolving with the Hogyoku. You may question scaling the Sternritter to one another but Quilge is unremarkable in that aspect with his defining ability being to imprison people, which has nothing to do with speed. On top of that, Yamamoto being at least comparable to Fullbring Bankai Ichigo in speed is consistent given how Quilge alone kept up with this Ichigo and how Yamamoto stomped four Sternritters without even using his Bankai. So however you slice it this Aizen should be comfortably faster than Fullbring Bankai Ichigo and in no way slower than Mel at his best.

Counters III - Defending Aizen's Abilities

To be blunt, I found your argument against the Purgatory feat to be completely baseless. Your argument boiled down to this:

No Gear, my argument did not "boil down to this". This being the single statement was simply one of the reasons I gave for Mel's time in Purgatory not being a sufficient counter to KS.

As if to imply that the repetition in statements should denote if Purgatory actually robs one of their senses. As a rebuttal, this makes little sense to me. The first time we are given a description of Purgatory's affects, the sensory aspect is brought up. Bare in mind that was when Merlin was giving a run down to the rest of the Sins of the dangers of Purgatory, Merlin herself being one of the most knowledgeable in the series about the supernatural (for lack of a better word). And you expect me to disregard her explanation because it isn't repeatedly stated by Ban? It'd be different if there was an explicit contradiction to her explanation, but there isn't.

The repetition of statements would make the author intent much more clear, and it's true for all the other things about Purgatory's environment.

The only "contradiction" you've brought up is Ban not referencing it 24/7. Just as plausible an alternative as the Purgatory's lack of sensory negation is the fact that Ban/Meliodas were so accustomed to operating without senses that it didn't faze them.

That's not even remotely a plausible explanation. By that logic, they wouldn't have mentioned Ban not getting burns or Frostbite when they were explicitly talking about what he has adapted to.

I don't understand how Merlin's explanation could have been lost in translation. Look at the scan again. Merlin is clearly describing every single dangerous aspect of Purgatory's environment. These explanations are all quite literal. The time distortion is explicitly explained along with the fluctuation in temperature and poisonous air. So I don't understand why the explanations of senses is interpreted as "losing track of yourself." That doesn't make much sense to me. This is the statement:

The statement isn't as clear cut as you make it sound Gear. What exactly does "you lose all your senses mean"? You'd assume that it means that your five senses are negated in some sense, right? Except if that happened, you wouldn't be able to perceive or feel anything. So the toxic atmosphere, the time distortion, all of that is irrelevant if you are incapable of perceiving anything. You'd think that this would be something emphasised more by Merlin, no? Furthermore, when we see Ban enter Purgatory at a point when we know he hasn't adapted it's clear as day that he is capable of perceiving his surroundings. So what am I to assume here? That Ban, despite clearly failing to resist every other aspect of Purgatory no-sold the negation of his senses? Or that Merlin didn't mean that Purgatory literally negates your senses?

The statement above explicitly makes reference to conventional senses. It talks about losing all senses and reliance on the sixth sense, which is a direct reference to the five senses. What about the above statement implies getting lost? Or even time distortion? You lose your senses and have to rely on another sense. Quite straightforward. No reference to getting lost, which isn't remotely implied. Time is also not implied anywhere in that statement. To be honest, this argument really seems like you are grasping at straws. Which only becomes more apparent with your next counter to Purgatory:

The "sixth sense" in question here is also vague. A sixth sense could be any kind of extrasensory perception, and for all we know, this "sixth sense" could simply be the ability to retain one's sense of self as both Meliodas and Ban struggle to do initially.

KS manipulates senses, I know. However, I've shown how Purgatory affected Ban mentally, creating similar illusions with spontaneous hallucinations of Elaine. He literally lost track of what he has been doing due to this. As such, I don't think it is completely fair to say that KS would be effective against Meliodas, who practically ignores the Purgatory environment.

Illusions? Ban hallucinated of his own accord because he saw something that reminded him of the fountain of youth. Purgatory didn't do anything in that regard. Heck, that was the only reason Ban was able to remember what he came into Purgatory for, he got lucky. And you're still conflating two different abilities. (You are arguing that) Purgatory literally negates your senses. KS is completely different in that it's simply altering the information that those senses bring in. One stops you perceiving anything and one subtly alters what you perceive, there's a distinct difference between the two. Even if you say otherwise, Meliodas also didn't take in Purgatory's environment as well as you claim. He was in there for decades if not centuries and arguably only even regained his sense of self because Ban was there. It's not as if he came into Purgatory and no-sold it, he took an insane number of years to gradually adapt to the environment. Using that to argue him no-selling KS is flawed.

Moreover, if one can fight with their senses completely negated on top of time distortion and other factors, what good are subtle sensory changes going to do? Meliodas doesn't even need his senses to fight, as shown when he fought the Demon King in Purgatory. To assume that Meliodas has such a reliance on his senses to the point that he will be completely manipulated by KS is blatantly contradicted by his showings within Purgatory.

So you're changing your argument now? Did Purgatory fail to affect him and thus not negate his senses or did it successfully negate his senses and he just fought through it? I thought you were arguing the former but here you're quite clearly arguing the latter; which is it? Regardless, if it is the latter, then that's still not enough to resist KS. Fighting with no senses would presumably require one to have some kind of sixth sense, which Merlin's statement implies, but a Sixth sense would still logically be withing Aizen's ability to manipulate, as I said in my last post. Either way, Meliodas fights reliant on some kind of senses, and from what you've shown I fail to see why Aizen wouldn't be able to manipulate them.

I don't understand this argument in the slightest. You are basically conflating two completely different in verse mechanics as you please. Maestro, a "sixth senses" is such a vague description that varies massively from verse to verse. Simply being referred to as a "sixth sense" doesn't automatically make KS effective, especially since said "sixth sense" hasn't even been fully explained within NNT. Realistically, this "sixth sense" has to do with battle intuition. You can't concretely prove that this "sixth sense" is akin to the spiritual sensory abilities in Bleach, nor like Yhwach's Almighty. This whole comparison stems from an inherently ambiguous descriptor too faulty to justify your argument.

I'm not conflating anything. What I am saying is that Aizen has on numerous occasions manipulated extra-sensory perceptions with KS and as such, unlike Purgatory, the mere possession of one will not be enough to allow you to remain unaffected.

Let's look at an overview of this argument. You are arguing that because Meliodas adapted to Purgatory's environment which supposedly negates your senses, he should be able to resist KS (I'm assuming you're arguing this and not that he just fought through it anyway). What I am saying is that this argument is very flawed.

For one, Meliodas only adapted to Purgatory after many many years, and even then arguably only was able to do so with help. He didn't just show up and no-sell it like he would have to against Aizen. Two, the singular statement that suggests that Purgatory negates senses is inconsistent with the actual portrayal of Purgatory and also isn't something mentioned ever again as far as I can tell. Three, negating senses is fundamentally different to subtly altering them, and resisting one doesn't necessarily mean you can resist the other. Four, the same statement that suggests the negation of senses also states that usage of a "sixth sense" of some form would allow one to operate without issue, and Aizen has on numerous occasions manipulated things that could be called sixth senses without issue, which implies that his abilities are greater than Purgatory in that aspect.

I'm aware that some of these may seem like minor things, but can you honestly say that Meliodas will just no sell KS in front of all of this that suggests otherwise?

This flat out isn't true Maestro, and I think you know this. Meliodas has used Hellblaze quite consistently:

  1. Against Dale
  2. Against Fodder
  3. Against Drole
  4. Against Fraudrin

Just to name a few. I'd also like to point out that it isn't hard for Meliodas to integrate Hellblaze into his attacks after seeing Aizen regenerate from his other ones. Not to mention that Aizen's appearance looks more like a demon than anything, so I don't find it unlikely for Meliodas to resort to these attacks from jump.

You misunderstand. I'm not suggesting that he won't use it, just that it probably wouldn't be a go-to move. I was saying that he would in all likelihood only use it after seeing Aizen's ability to regenerate. And I don't really think Aizen looks like an NNT demon but that's a pretty subjective topic so I won't push it.

I don't understand this. The origin of the healing factor can be different, but that doesn't mean anything. Ban drank from the Fountain of Youth, Demons are just that way biologically, and Aizen can "evolve" his body. However, functionally, all three possess healing factors that are basically regeneration. What's important to note is that Hellblaze doesn't specifically neg Demons or the Fountain of Youth. It negs healing factors in general, the origins of the healing factors are borderline irrelevant. As such, I don't think Aizen can heal from a Hellblaze attack, especially when you are attributing that to his immortality. Ban's immortality is his most infamous trait, to the point that even vaporizing half of his body doesn't do anything to him. And as I showed, Meliodas permanently scarred Ban with one Hellblaze attack.

Ordinarily, I would agree, but in this instance, the origin of the healing factor is very relevant. Aizen's abilities by himself (regarding versatility) are no different than an ordinary Captain Class Soul Reaper. It is the Hogyoku that granted him this ability in the first place. If you've read the previous section then I don't need to explain how incredibly powerful the Hogyoku's evolutionary powers are. The Hogyoku allowed Aizen to become so powerful that he was able to kill a creature of reason with his passive output, and it allowed him to come back from things that should have killed him, despite Aizen himself technically not possessing a Healing Factor. Even when Gin deleted Aizen's chest with a cell dissolving poison as I showed in my opener, something I failed to mention is that Gin then removed the Hogyoku from Aizen's chest. Yet this still failed to kill Aizen. The point I was making in the last post is that the Hogyoku has the power to materialize the wishes of its wielder and given the crazy feats it already has, it's not unreasonable to suggest that it could allow Aizen to "regenerate" in some form or another despite Meliodas' Hellblaze. What's more is that Mel would have to deal a fatal blow with Hellblaze in the first place, which won't be easy.

It seems you are emphasizing the space and time distortion aspect of the Kurohitsugi. Unfortunately for you, Meliodas has dealt with these kinds of attacks before and has been able to fight, relatively unhindered. This comes from his encounter with the Chaos King, where Arthur lost control and did this:

Meliodas was still shown to be able to fight under Arthur's distorted time space without much trouble. This is shown again against Cath and his Chaos King powers:

This isn't even close to the same thing. Arthur and Cath seemed to be warping reality, but all they were doing was affecting the environment in these instances. Their abilities aren't even being used directly on Mel in these instances. On top of that, how is any of that warping space and time? Once again, Arthur was literally just manipulating their surroundings, what you've posted isn't even a feat for Mel.

I'd like to note that you've only shown Aizen stating that his Kurohitsugi distorts time and space. I am not saying that to imply it doesn't do that, however. I am just noting that because the Chaos King's powers are quite explicit in how they distort time and space to a massive degree, to the point that reality itself is obscured. How Aizen's own time and space distortion stacks up against this is quite vague given that you've only presented a statement thus far. Based on that, I am confident in saying that the Kurohitsugi isn't exactly a game changer.

Explicit? The only thing explicit about that is that its reality-warping, which once again wasn't used directly on Mel, and also is nothing like Kurohitsugi which warps time and space due to its gravity. The fact that it's only is a statement doesn't hurt that at all, we didn't get to see what it could do because it was immediately backhanded by Dangai Ichigo.

Counters IV - Dealing With Meliodas' Abilities and Skill

When looking at your skill showings, there are some small things I could bring up as "counters" but given the number of feats presented, a couple of them being slightly less impressive makes no difference to your overall point. Meliodas is indeed skilled, and I'm not going to attempt to argue Aizen as more skilled. After all, he simply doesn't have the feats you could use to argue him as such, in no small part because most of his fighting style revolves around the usage of KS. Having said that, Aizen is not unskilled, and he has his advantages when it comes to overall fighting ability.

As I mentioned, Aizen is quite clearly not lacking in combat skill. As a Captain in the Soul Society, he has a lot of training and experience under his belt, and we see this reflected in his fights. One such example would be his fight against Urahara and Isshin, where we see him acrobatically redirect Isshin's sword with his foot and immediately carry that movement into a simultaneous attack on the both of them. A less straightforward example would be his fight against Shinji, where he adapts to Shinji's ability which reverses all of your directions in almost no time at all.

Outside of outright skill, one technique which will be very useful against Meliodas is Shunpo. Shunpo is the Soul Reapers' high-speed movement technique which involves using footwork is a specific way to outmanoeuvre your opponent. This technique can easily allow one to get behind opponents just as fast if not faster than you, as Ichigo did against Grimmjow, and Aizen has done similar to Dangai Ichigo despite his stat disadvantage. This technique will be especially useful to get the drop on Meliodas in particular because of his lack of familiarity with it as compared to pretty much every Bleach character.

The last thing Aizen has up his sleeve is the most important aspect here, as it's something that ties everything together; his intelligence. Aizen is an incredibly smart guy. We're not just talking book smarts, we're talking smart to the point that in his character profile he's listed as having 100/100 for Intelligence and the Bleach wiki lists his intellect amongst his powers and abilities. Aizen's intelligence is his defining characteristic, as it's what allowed him to manipulate almost every character in the series for a huge amount of time. When he says things like,

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He isn't just being dramatic. This is a guy who planned all of the events of early Bleach to pan out the way that they did, essentially orchestrating Ichigo's entire life. Aizen's intelligence is constantly on display and I don't want this to drag on too long, but it is something he makes use of in his fights. Sometimes that's by taunting his opponents, something that Komamura notes is his speciality, and sometimes it's simply by observing his opponents and figuring out their strategies, something he does in fights against people who he's explicitly not being cautious against. And that is his greatest asset in this aspect. His intelligence will allow him to figure out Meliodas' abilities and figure out how best to use his own abilities to fight against him.

Meliodas Full Counter allows him to reflect magic attacks back at the opponent with even more power. Since energies are equalized, such an attack will be effective against Aizen's projectiles. Meliodas has used this ability to devastating effect in the midst of combat. Just look at his fight against Derieri and Monspeet. As Meliodas is fighting with Derieri on the ground, Monspeet fires off a fire attack from overhead. Seeing this, Meliodas immediately kicks Monspeet up to Derieri and Full Counters the attack back at both of them, with such speed that neither can dodge it.

Full-counter is certainly a powerful ability but it's hardly insurmountable. As I've just spent so much time explaining, Aizen is not an idiot. He's more than capable of figuring out that it doesn't work on physical attacks, at which point he would adjust his strategy accordingly, whether that's by focusing on physical attacks or by only using energy attacks at close range in a way that Mel doesn't have the opportunity to FC it. Either way, it won't pose much of an obstacle for Aizen.

Meliodas can also manipulate the Darkness into different forms, be it claws or blades. The versatility afforded by these transformations only serves to supplement his own exceptional skill. This gives him an invaluable advantage in CQC, an even bigger advantage at a range via AoE or Full Counter.

Is this something Meliodas does frequently? I'm not necessarily contesting it but in your example, he quite clearly wasn't acting in the way he normally would, i.e. the very definition of out of character. Regardless, I fail to see how growing claws or blades will grant Meliodas any kind of advantage. Aizen is more than comfortable and capable of taking on different opponents with different unique kinds of weapons and abilities, and even besides that this is arguably something Aizen can replicate with the Hogyoku, which has allowed him to grow extra appendages, even extra heads/mouths that can shoot energy attacks.

The Hogyoku is also the last thing I want to talk about here.

From what I'm gathering, Aizen doesn't really have much beyond KS. By that I mean that, since Mel won't be effected by it, Aizen doesn't really have the "trump card" he is so use to abusing.

Though I've already addressed KS working on Mel, I still want to emphasise that I don't think Aizen is reliant on KS to win here. That's in part due to his intelligence, his raw stats, Shunpo etc., but it's also due in large part to the Hogyoku. You see as much as I've talked about him evolving due to the Hogyoku is past instances, Aizen's evolution is very much a thing of the present. He will still be able to adapt and evolve on the fly as he has done so many times before, and even as he goes on to do after up to where I'm taking his feats from. For Mel to win this fight, even barring KS, he would have to end it very quickly, and that's just not something I think he's capable of doing. Not only because he frequently starts fights in base form and doesn't progress to his later forms until pushed, but also because Aizen is a formidable opponent who won't go down easily. The Hogyoku only serves to supplement that, materializing Aizen's wishes and helping him in any areas he may find himself lacking. Once you stack KS on top of that, I don't see how Mel has any chance of winning.

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EcoBlitz

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#42 EcoBlitz  Online

Damn great posts by both sides

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JoshTaku

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is it now up for voting?

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maestromage

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@joshtaku: No. We're doing four posts so two more for Defiant and one more for me

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Rebuttal | Demon of Defiance

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Power and Amps

In regards to Liones size, I feel like we are going to go in circles. You seem to agree with my placement of Meliodas' Danafor feat regardless, so it is a collective waste of time to continue harping on that point. In addition, you seem to have conceded to the profound boost in power a Sacred Treasure affords Ban, which would thereby make your refutes against Meliodas' scaling moot. It should be well established that Meliodas scales well above Ban's island level feats in his emotion state, a gap which only continues to increase with Meliodas' various amps. But before I expand on Meliodas' power ups and transformations, I'd like to take some time to go more in depth into the island level feats in NNT and how fodder they are to EoS Meliodas:

"Island Level" Inferiors

A good place to start would be the fight between the Seven Deadly Sins and Chandler. The following feat from Chandler is from his pre awakened state. To put this into perspective, even Chandler's awakened state is nothing but the split half of the Original Demon's full power, who in turn was casually oneshotted by Mael. Chandler is no slouch in DC, able to spam massive meteorites

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This feat warrants a bit more elaboration, so I will provide it. Above, you can see Chandler ravaging the landscape by spamming meteorites left and right. Now you will notice that the streaks from the meteorites dwarfs Mama Hawk:

Compare the Red Line (Mama Hawk Size) to the Blue Line (Meteor Streak Size)
Compare the Red Line (Mama Hawk Size) to the Blue Line (Meteor Streak Size)

Mama Hawk's own size is pretty damn big, capable of holding a giant and a restaurant with room to spare:

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We know how the meteorite streaks compares to Mama Hawk's size, but what about the meteorites themselves:

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These meteorites are easily sitting in the large hill/small mountain ranges based on those comparisons alone. You could easily fit dozens and dozens of Mama Hawks in that meteorite and still not cover the entire thing. And that's just one meteorite, the KE of which would be bordering into island level territory. To illustrate the amount of force a large hill/small mountain sized meteor would yield, a football field sized meteorite can completely destroy a city. The DC of a falling meteorite would quite literally dwarf its own size by orders of magnitude. And that's just one of just under a dozen meteorites Chandler dropped out of the sky in his weakest form. A form that is borderline irrelevant to EoS Meliodas. Right after this, King and Gowther combine their magic and unleashes a devastating combo attack on Chandler:

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The explosion dwarfs the surrounding, mountainous landscape by orders of magnitude, and a feat that can be quite easily be argued at the island levels of power. Consistent with King alone, pre Gloxina training (as in weaker than the King that fought Chandler), creating a large mountain sized explosion with a similar attack. The result?

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A bloody lip and some minor bruises. Need I remind you that this was still a pre awakened Chandler, which makes Mael casually one shotting the Original Demon even more impressive. As one would expect from someone who surpass the Demon King in power, Meliodas is above even Mael in that regard. Which means base Chandler, who is handily island level, is irrelevant to EoS. Which, on top of the Ban scaling, really hammers home that island level isn't even worth mentioning at Meliodas' tier. I find this to be superior to Aizen's scaling above Ichigo due to the fact that in verse, Meliodas is quite literally several tiers above island level.

It should be noted that DK Meliodas' raw physical power has blatantly overpowered not just Mael, but also Diane and King, all at the same time. In fact, Meliodas just using physical strikes was enough to prove that he was too much for Mael. And no, it wasn't a blitzing situation. This was an explicit showcase of how even Demon King Meliodas far outlcasses Mael's power with just physical attacks.

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A chapter later, Ban says that this very Meliodas was far weakerthan the one he knew (keep in mind he hasn't seen Meliodas return to his real body yet). The implications should be obvious at this point. EoS Meliodas' physical power is more than enough to handily overwhelm people like Mael, despite Mael using his Sunshine in tandem with punches. Mael's own raw power being able to one shot the Original Demon, which cements his power dwarfing that of base Chandler. Hell, King and Gowther's Celestial Arrow attack against Chandler (island level) is but a morsel of Mael's power when comparing the combined combat class of Gowther and King to that of Mael's alone, before he even achieved his original form no less. I am aware that DK Mel used tendrils against the Sins and Mael, but given that he is far weaker than EoS Meliodas, it hardly matters in the grand scheme of things. Especially since Meliodas can use his own Darkness to amp the power of his strikes:

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So, I really do struggle to see how Aizen is Meliodas' physical superior. If you choose to scale off of island level, you lose, handily at that. Base Chandler is a nothing to EoS Meliodas and even characters tiers above Base Chandler get straight up fodderized. Base Chandler's casual attacks are basically spamming island busting meteorites, and he is irrelevant to NNT top tiers. Scaling wise, you've only really shown Aizen backhanding an island level attack. I've already shown that Mael's casual Sunshine output is large island level, and Meliodas' physical power was so strong that he was deemed too much for Mael, despite him using Sunshine against him. So, even then, Meliodas scales above large island level in a weaker form. As of now, I am convinced Meliodas has the comfortable edge in this regard.

Comparing Power Ups

To cement my advantage, I'd like to go into Meliodas' amps and transformations to cement the physical advantage.

TLDR? Aizen's "amp" that you speak of isn't a single clear cut amp but more a series of at least four distinct evolutions, each of which increases his abilities significantly, so it would erroneous to claim that Meliodas scales higher above island level physicals because of Demon Mark + AM when Aizen has more transformations if you want to look at it like that. I also think you're underselling Aizen's feat against Ichigo somewhat.

I would like to take the time to go into these "four distinct evolution:"

Aizen's fight with the trio goes on for a few chapters so I'll try to summarise it. The three of them had quite clearly prepared extensively for the fight, with Yoruichi showing up wearing special armour and with them constantly displaying combo attacks they had (presumably) come up with beforehand. Once again it's worth noting how Isshin alone was fighting Aizen solo earlier and Aizen later implies that Urahara used to be comparable to himself. Emphasis on used because despite all their prep and teamwork and even individual power the trio fails to do anything of note to Aizen. Aizen displays his superiority throughout the fight, whether it be by stating that a Kido in the 90s (ala Kurohitsugi and the one Yama previously harmed him with) isn't worth dodging (as he face-tanks it), or through his speed, nigh blitzing them casually more than once. Isshin even states that he can no longer even detect Aizen's spiritual power due to his evolution. It goes beyond simply having better stats however, as his evolving self makes it naturally hard to beat. At one point in the fight, Urahara even manages to cause Aizen's power to double back on itself, burning him from the inside and... it does nothing. Suffice to say even his initial evolution lead to a drastic increase in all areas, and Aizen ended the fight with seeming ease offscreen after tanking the trio's back to back attacks.

So from what I gather, Aizen can dominate characters who would otherwise be comparable to him with his evolution? The context of prep would obviously make this more impressive, but Maestro. It's not enough. I've shown you the power of Meliodas' Demon Mark Amp. As a refresher, it allowed Meliodas to mangle Ban's arm with superior strength while blitzing him several times over, all while Ban had sucked him dry of power and added it to his own. Even though the Demon Mark and Aizen's first evolution seem to be their weakest power ups, I still don't see how these two scenarios are comparable. Unlike Aizen, Meliodas was in a scenario where he was getting weaker and his opponent, formidable on his own, was growing in power. It was the Demon Mark alone that compensated for this massive difference and allowed Meliodas to win. A step up from the Demon Mark is his Berserk form. This wasn't really been shown Post Revival, but bare with me:

In his Berserker State, Meliodas absolutely pummels Helbram. Helbram's magic is similar to Ban in that it allows him to draw power from others. Right before Meliodas beat the shit out of him, Helbram boasted the power of twenty Holy Knights. At this stage in the series, Holy Knights were still a threat to Meliodas, a significant one at that. So for Helbram to have the power of TWENTY of them on top of his own would, on paper, overwhelm Meliodas. But it didn't, and it was even noted that Meliodas had not yet reached a final state and his power was still growing:

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The Demon Mark and the Berserker State are too absolutely massive amps. And the kicker is that these amps were used by Unsealed Meliodas. Meaning that the magic he had available at that time was equal to just a morsel of the power he has in this fight. Merlin refers to those amps as "lingering residue" of his original power:

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The amps an Unsealed Mel has access to are absolutely insane in boosting overall power, but the amps themselves are nothing compare to Meliodas' full awakened power. Overall, it is quite clear that Meliodas amps are handily superior to Aizen's. Especially given that, barring his first evolution, the amps themselves don't seem to add that much, relatively speaking:

On their journey to the Soul Society, Aizen kills Kototsu by Reiatsu crushing it. The significance of this is that Kototsu is generally a being that is considered beyond soul reapers. As Isshin explains, as well as Gin above, Kototsu is "a creature of reason" who would normally kill any soul reaper it comes into contact with by displacing them through time. It's something that the soul society can't really deal with. Yet Aizen, whilst still only partway through his evolution thanks to the Hogyoku, is able to "kill" it with his spiritual energy. In short, Aizen's casual passive energy is enough to defeat beings beyond the Soul Society and far beyond the level of power he used to be at.

For example, this isn't really an "amp" in the same vain as Meliodas'. The Hogyuko seemed to allow Aizen to overcome the Kototsu's time displacement. Maestro, surely you see the problem with this. Right now we are comparing amps and how they increase one's raw power. And to fight your case, you show Aizen overcoming time hax as a quantifiable and relevant argument? This argument is quite confusing to me.

The next two of Aizen's evolutions are relatively short-lived, but his next form is able to tank a slash from Dangai Ichigo despite him being strong enough to stop Aizen's sword swing barehanded and backhand Kurohitsugi. Following this Aizen evolves once again and becomes strong enough to badly burn Ichigo's arm with a single attack, once again shown a significant increase in power.

And the last two evolutions serve as the ultimate testament to quality over quantity. Because, while Aizen may have more evolutions and amps than Mel, the Demon Mark of an Unsealed Mel is equal to if not superior to these two amps combined. Let's be real. Given the boost Unsealed Mel can give himself with his transformations (who only had access to but a fraction of his power), these two evolutions don't really compare. Tanking an attack from someone stronger than you is a feat Meliodas doesn't even need an amp to accomplish, as shown with DK Zeldris. And burning Ichigo with a follow up amp is hardly relevant to a discussion about raw power. If one is to compare the amps Meliodas and Aizen have at their disposal, I'd far favor Meliodas', handily at that. An advantage that would play no small part in establishing his physical superiority, only increasing as the battle goes on.

Speed

Elizabeth is midair, then we have two panels of Merlin and Diane struggling with the water, and then we see the lightning. Meliodas very easily could have and in all likelihood would have already hit the ground by the point that the lightning appears. Even without this, your argument still doesn't make sense.

Maestro, I agree with this. I never contested this. Yes, Meliodas would be on the ground as the lightning appears in front of Elizabeth. It would be the only way for him to intercept it in base form since he can't fly, after all. Let me remind you that this was the premise I disagreed with:

"The issue is that we don't know exactly when he woke up and started moving, as he could have started moving before the panel with the lightning a few metres away from Eli."

I disagree with Meliodas moving before the lightning appears. If we actually read the entire scene, the last we see of Meliodas before the lightning appears is him falling, still unconscious. There is no basis for Meliodas to move before the lightning strikes, by panel flow or implications. But, I do agree with you that Meliodas was on the ground as the lightning came down, which would allow him the avenue to actually intercept it in base form.

To restate my argument, I am arguing that Meliodas is moving as the lightning is in front of Elizabeth. I think this interpretation is far more valid than assuming that he moved before we even see the lightning bolt, which isn't supported by much of anything.

For starters, the panel right before the lightning, we see Elizabeth in the air from Diane's PoV. Empty skies, clear view. And Meliodas is nowhere to be found:

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Maestro, if Meliodas moved before the lightning appeared, this is where we would have seen him do so. This is literally the instant before the lightning swooped down on Elizabeth and Meliodas is nowhere to be found, which is very damning considering how close Diane and Meliodas were to each other just prior. That's not even about speed. Meliodas can move FTE to Diane, I know. But your premise relies on Meliodas falling, recovering, seeing Elizabeth and then jumping, all without Diane not noticing a single thing. The former three things have literally nothing to do with speed, mind you. Moreover, if Meliodas moved before the lightning swooped down, he would've been by Elizabeth already. The distance, as you pointed out, was like 40 feet. Under no circumstances would it take several panels for Meliodas to cross that distance. If Meliodas truly moved before the lightning even swept down, we'd see Meliodas right above Elizabeth. But again, we don't.

Be honest Maestro, the intent of this scene was to show Meliodas move as the lightning bolt was right in front of Elizabeth. Hence Meliodas being drawn as a barely visible blur, denoting burst speed:

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Meliodas is literally seen as a blurry smear. In NNT, and manga in general, that implies a very small, nigh instant timeframe. Like here where as we are told that Meliodas is moving, we see similar imagery simultaneously. We even see Diane's cry for help cut off, which is a common manga trope that conveys immediate intervention. All in all, I don't find it at all plausible that Meliodas moved before we see the lightning. It should not be lost on anyone that Meliodas was literally knocked out last we seem of him before we see the lightning.

There's one key part here; "Dozens of feet in the air". I'm not saying I disagree with this assessment because I don't, but it is somewhat vague. Dozens could be 24 or it could be 84, and it makes a big difference when your core argument relies on Mel moving 35 times the distance the lightning did. Based on her being 3-4 feet away from the lightning bolt, Meliodas would have to have moved 105 feet. Sword swing or such aside, Meliodas simply didn't have that far to move. For size comparison:

And this is the key part you are misunderstanding. Maestro, though the lightning may have been 3-4 feet away from Elizabeth, it didn't cross that distance. It didn't cross any distance. The impressive part of the feat is not only that Meliodas crossed dozens of feet before the lightning could tag Elizabeth, but that the lightning was literally at a standstill as he did it. I mean look at the image I posed of Meliodas moving as a blur as the lightning is literally a few feet away from Elizabeth. The lightning literally was literally in the same position in this panel as it was this panel. The difference was that Meliodas covered dozens of feet in that time interval, an interval where the lightning barely even moved an inch. By your metrics, Elizabeth is 40 feet high:

She's maybe 40 feet high, which would make Mel's feat not even close to quint.

Even if, even if I was so generous as to say that the lightning crossed an entire foot's worth of distance between those two panels, Meliodas would still be quint mach. Because he would be moving 40 times the distance (by your metrics, btw). I'd like it to be known that this level of speed is far from inconsistent for Meliodas. He accomplished a similar feat earlier on, where he statued lightning with the Demon King during their clash. The kicker is that their shockwave statued lightning to a massive extent, also covering dozens of feet while the lightning was at a standstill. The speed of these shockwaves, in turn, pale in comparison to Meliodas and a weaker form of DK Zeldris:

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Both of these feats come from base form Meliodas, a Meliodas that still has the luxury of becoming even more powerful with his Demon Mark and Assault Mode. So even if Aizen is far faster than Meliodas, that isn't enough. Ban was already stated to have an overwhelming speed advantageover Meliodas on top of robbing his powers and stacking it onto his own. Demon Mark alone allowed Meliodas to mercilessly and effortlessly blitz this same Ban. So yeah, Aizen needs to be massively faster than Meliodas to abuse any relevant speed gap. That said, I don't think the speed feat you've shown for Aizen is as impressive as you make it out to be. The absolute highest end result for this feat, by your own admission, is quint mach (as in 10k), the lowest end Mach 6k, all contingent on an assumed time frame. I find Meliodas' speed feats to be far more concrete than this in all honesty.

Aizen's Abilities

KS vs Purgatory

To be honest, I am not at all convinced by the arguments you've made here. Despite insisting the contrary, you continue to use a lack of repeating statements as a "debunk" to my claim:

The repetition of statements would make the author intent much more clear, and it's true for all the other things about Purgatory's environment.

I agree the repetition of statements would make intent even more clear. However, that doesn't mean it isn't clear enough already. The reality of the situation is that the sensory aspect was described during the first ever explanation of Purgatory, recounted by the only human to have survived Purgatory no less. That said, the repetition in statements argument doesn't hold up either.

That's not even remotely a plausible explanation. By that logic, they wouldn't have mentioned Ban not getting burns or Frostbite when they were explicitly talking about what he has adapted to.

Interesting that you say this. Because, if you actually read the events of Purgatory in full, you would know that this is far from true. Meliodas explicitly states that Ban is the first person to survive in Purgatory with his mind still intact. Ban says it is because he is immortal and Meliodas says this is not the reason. Meliodas then goes onto say that the experience in Purgatory will cause dramatic changes in not only his body, but his mind.

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In other words Maestro, no, frostbites are not the only thing referenced here. Meliodas goes out of his way to reference the mental aspect. And the only aspect of Purgatory that affects the "mind" is the sensory negation. You posted this scan yourself, so I don't know why you didn't point this out. Meliodas literally says that Ban's immortality is not the only reason he is surviving in Purgatory. Which makes sense as sensory negation wouldn't be affected by Ban's regeneration.

The statement isn't as clear cut as you make it sound Gear. What exactly does "you lose all your senses mean"? You'd assume that it means that your five senses are negated in some sense, right? Except if that happened, you wouldn't be able to perceive or feel anything.

Maestro, you are reaching here. The statement says "you lose all your senses and can only rely on your sixth sense." The reference of the sixth sense implies that the "lost senses" are the other five. That's pretty cut and dry.

So the toxic atmosphere, the time distortion, all of that is irrelevant if you are incapable of perceiving anything. You'd think that this would be something emphasised more by Merlin, no? Furthermore, when we see Ban enter Purgatory at a point when we know he hasn't adapted it's clear as day that he is capable of perceiving his surroundings. So what am I to assume here? That Ban, despite clearly failing to resist every other aspect of Purgatory no-sold the negation of his senses? Or that Merlin didn't mean that Purgatory literally negates your senses?

This is nit picking. Obviously, the mangaka has to show Ban and Meliodas interacting with each other and the environment in order to keep the story going. This doesn't really prove anything, especially since I can easily attribute this to the "sixth sense" that Merlin described. That said, the example you showed doesn't show Ban perceiving anything. He is literally living out his own trippy fantasy and forgot what he had been doing after he recovered. To call that perception is more than generous.

However, I also want to illustrate the flaw in your reasoning. You are pointing out narrative inconsistencies to "debunk" the explicitly stated sensory negation. Well, this same reasoning can be used to "debunk" every single aspect of purgatory. The constant fluctuation between extreme hot and extreme cold, along with the toxic air, doesn't affect the food Meliodas and Ban are eating, for example:

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Hell, when they are fashioning their clothes, the tools they are using is also unaffected by the climate. This just goes to show that, at the end of the day, the mangaka has a story to tell and he isn't going to pay attention to every little inconsistency. The fact that the sensory negation was explicitly stated to be active along with Meliodas saying that Ban's mind is adapting and undergoing changes should be more than enough.

Illusions? Ban hallucinated of his own accord because he saw something that reminded him of the fountain of youth. Purgatory didn't do anything in that regard. Heck, that was the only reason Ban was able to remember what he came into Purgatory for, he got lucky.

What? Why would Ban hallucinate of "his own accord" when he has a very clear mission. Tell me Maestro. If Purgatory played absolutely zero role in these hallucinations, why has Ban never done this outside of Purgatory. However, that doesn't really matter since literally a page later Ban says it is because of Purgatory:

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And you're still conflating two different abilities. (You are arguing that) Purgatory literally negates your senses. KS is completely different in that it's simply altering the information that those senses bring in. One stops you perceiving anything and one subtly alters what you perceive, there's a distinct difference between the two.

As we see with Ban, Purgatory's sensory negation can lead to trippy hallucinations where one loses touch with reality. That said, I disagree with KS being effective. How can any form of sensory manipulation be effective on Meliodas when his body has been trained for centuries to not rely on his senses. Having your senses negated is not the same as sensory manip, obviously. But KS is only effective in that it takes advantage of how reliant people are on their sensory abilities, a trait Meliodas doesn't have. He fought the Demon King under Purgatory's conditions and was not hindered in any noticeable way.

Even if you say otherwise, Meliodas also didn't take in Purgatory's environment as well as you claim. He was in there for decades if not centuries and arguably only even regained his sense of self because Ban was there. It's not as if he came into Purgatory and no-sold it, he took an insane number of years to gradually adapt to the environment. Using that to argue him no-selling KS is flawed.

Wait what? Meliodas adapted over time, that much was never contested. However, seeing as how I am using EoS Meliodas, Meliodas would have already fully adapted to Purgatory's environment. Pointing out how long it took Meliodas to adapt is irrelevant when the Meliodas I am using has already done so. Moreover, Ban didn't help Meliodas retain his senses. Where was Ban when Meliodas was strolling through Purgatory and taunting the Demon King?

So you're changing your argument now? Did Purgatory fail to affect him and thus not negate his senses or did it successfully negate his senses and he just fought through it? I thought you were arguing the former but here you're quite clearly arguing the latter; which is it?

I am not changing anything. From the beginning, I've argued that Meliodas adapted to sensory negation overtime until it was second nature to him.

Regardless, if it is the latter, then that's still not enough to resist KS. Fighting with no senses would presumably require one to have some kind of sixth sense, which Merlin's statement implies, but a Sixth sense would still logically be withing Aizen's ability to manipulate, as I said in my last post. Either way, Meliodas fights reliant on some kind of senses, and from what you've shown I fail to see why Aizen wouldn't be able to manipulate them.

Do you see the flaw in this argument? You are assuming that Aizen can manipulate Meliodas' "sixth sense," something that has never even been fully explained or described. But because it is a "sense," that automatically means that Aizen can control it? Come on, Maestro. You yourself said that the "sixth sense" is vague in its application. It could be extra sensory or it could be a way of operating without any other senses. If the "sixth sense" was actually extra sensory, then Ban would have had it Post Purgatory given how his body adapted. However, Post Purgatory, Ban has shown nothing of the sort. So, if anything, there is more evidence that the "sixth sense" is just a way of fighting without the other five. And I don't think Aizen has manipulated something as abstract as that before.

I'm not conflating anything. What I am saying is that Aizen has on numerous occasions manipulated extra-sensory perceptions with KS and as such, unlike Purgatory, the mere possession of one will not be enough to allow you to remain unaffected.

That's conflating, Maestro. You are literally saying that as long as there is some sort of extra sense, Aizen can manipulate it. Which is ridiculous because said "extra sense" has not been explained at all, and is more than likely not extra sensory in the first place. Yes, Aizen has manipulated extra-sensory perceptions before. However, can you objectively prove that those extra sensory abilities are the exact same as the one Meliodas possesses? I doubt you can given the described nature of this "sixth sense," but I will wait to see what you bring.

Kurohitsugi

This isn't even close to the same thing. Arthur and Cath seemed to be warping reality, but all they were doing was affecting the environment in these instances. Their abilities aren't even being used directly on Mel in these instances. On top of that, how is any of that warping space and time? Once again, Arthur was literally just manipulating their surroundings, what you've posted isn't even a feat for Mel.

Explicit? The only thing explicit about that is that its reality-warping, which once again wasn't used directly on Mel, and also is nothing like Kurohitsugi which warps time and space due to its gravity. The fact that it's only is a statement doesn't hurt that at all, we didn't get to see what it could do because it was immediately backhanded by Dangai Ichigo.

Let me remind you that the only thing shown for Kurohitsugi's time and space manipulation is a statement saying it possess that ability. We don't know its actual power in that respect, nor how it manifests in a practical sense. That said Chaos is not reality manipulation, but rather space/time manipulation. In the scan I showed with Cath, he is literally pulling people into his dimension. And then Arthur shatters the very dimension Cath created:

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The powers that Chaos grants Arthur and Cath is clearly space/time manipulation. Like when Cath made Meliodas experience one possible future of the world, which was explicitly stated to not be hallucination or reality. Heck, there is no possible way Arthur and Cath are manipulating reality because their attacks do not affect the "normal world":

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Now, comparing this to the Kurohitsugi, I find the gravity aspect to be irrelevant. Gravity being strong enough to warp space and time is not only not quantifiable, but also has the same end result as Cath and Arthur's chaos. In that regard, I think Meliodas tanking being sucked into Cath's dimension and recovering from Cath forcing him to experience a possible timeline, shows his resistance to space/time manipulation. Heck, Arthur's space/time manip wasn't just affecting the surroundings, but the Sins themselves. You see some of them suspended in the air, others standing at a vertical on platforms. And yes Maestro, this was an attack aimed at the Sins, not just environmental manipulation. At the end of the day, there is no real way for you to claim that the Kurohitsugi is superior to Cath/Arthur in space/time manip going off of just one statement.

Hogyoku's Regeneration vs Hellblaze

Ordinarily, I would agree, but in this instance, the origin of the healing factor is very relevant. Aizen's abilities by himself (regarding versatility) are no different than an ordinary Captain Class Soul Reaper. It is the Hogyoku that granted him this ability in the first place. If you've read the previous section then I don't need to explain how incredibly powerful the Hogyoku's evolutionary powers are. The Hogyoku allowed Aizen to become so powerful that he was able to kill a creature of reason with his passive output, and it allowed him to come back from things that should have killed him, despite Aizen himself technically not possessing a Healing Factor.

This doesn't prove anything in regards to Hellblaze affecting regeneration. The Hogyoku affords Aizen a boost in power, sure. But why does that matter when discussing how Hellblaze would affect Aizen's regen?

Even when Gin deleted Aizen's chest with a cell dissolving poison as I showed in my opener, something I failed to mention is that Gin then removed the Hogyoku from Aizen's chest. Yet this still failed to kill Aizen. The point I was making in the last post is that the Hogyoku has the power to materialize the wishes of its wielder and given the crazy feats it already has, it's not unreasonable to suggest that it could allow Aizen to "regenerate" in some form or another despite Meliodas' Hellblaze. What's more is that Mel would have to deal a fatal blow with Hellblaze in the first place, which won't be easy.

This doesn't prove anything. Once again, the nature of the healing factor is irrelevant. If Hogyoku affords Aizen regeneration, per the description of Hellblaze, it is getting negated. The origin of the healing factor never mattered to Hellblaze. It can be from the Fountain of Youth or Darkness, it is still getting negated. I don't see why Hogyoku would be any different, especially since it has never overcame regenerative negation before.

You misunderstand. I'm not suggesting that he won't use it, just that it probably wouldn't be a go-to move. I was saying that he would in all likelihood only use it after seeing Aizen's ability to regenerate. And I don't really think Aizen looks like an NNT demon but that's a pretty subjective topic so I won't push it.

Why would Meliodas only use Hellblaze after seeing Aizen regenerate? Meliodas used Hellblaze against Escanor and he has no regeneration. I really don't understand your point here. Meliodas has consistently used Hellblaze, as I've shown. So why would it be any different here?

Hogyoku Evolotion

Though I've already addressed KS working on Mel, I still want to emphasise that I don't think Aizen is reliant on KS to win here. That's in part due to his intelligence, his raw stats, Shunpo etc., but it's also due in large part to the Hogyoku. You see as much as I've talked about him evolving due to the Hogyoku is past instances, Aizen's evolution is very much a thing of the present. He will still be able to adapt and evolve on the fly as he has done so many times before, and even as he goes on to do after up to where I'm taking his feats from. For Mel to win this fight, even barring KS, he would have to end it very quickly, and that's just not something I think he's capable of doing. Not only because he frequently starts fights in base form and doesn't progress to his later forms until pushed, but also because Aizen is a formidable opponent who won't go down easily. The Hogyoku only serves to supplement that, materializing Aizen's wishes and helping him in any areas he may find himself lacking. Once you stack KS on top of that, I don't see how Mel has any chance of winning.

I don't see why Meliodas won't be able to end the fight quickly. He has the skill advantage, regeneration negation, clones, and the physical edge. I don't see Aizen evolving past all of those advantages before Meliodas puts him down. And your comment about Meliodas not progressing to later forms is also wrong. Because he has used Demon Marks without being in a tight spot. Moreover, even if Meliodas only uses it when pushed, seeing as how Meliodas can activate his transformation as he is being blitzed (as shown with DK Zeldris), it hardly matters. Meliodas literally went AM as he was being punched by TO Escanor.

Shunpo

Outside of outright skill, one technique which will be very useful against Meliodas is Shunpo. Shunpo is the Soul Reapers' high-speed movement technique which involves using footwork is a specific way to outmanoeuvre your opponent. This technique can easily allow one to get behind opponents just as fast if not faster than you, as Ichigo did against Grimmjow, and Aizen has done similar to Dangai Ichigo despite his stat disadvantage. This technique will be especially useful to get the drop on Meliodas in particular because of his lack of familiarity with it as compared to pretty much every Bleach character.

High speed movement is not enough, especially when used to attack from behind. Meliodas' battlefield awareness is so high that he can counter Estarossa's sneak attack with his Darkness while not even looking at him, fighting Zeldris off:

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A scenario like this, where Aizen tries to go behind Meliodas and land an attack is just going to leave him open to Meliodas crushing him with Darkness, like he did against Estarossa and Zeldris. And that's ignoring the fact that Meliodas can also get faster via his own transformations.

Intelligence

Sometimes that's by taunting his opponents, something that Komamura notes is his speciality, and sometimes it's simply by observing his opponents and figuring out their strategies, something he does in fights against people who he's explicitly not being cautious against. And that is his greatest asset in this aspect. His intelligence will allow him to figure out Meliodas' abilities and figure out how best to use his own abilities to fight against him.

How applicable is that "taunting" here. I mean Aizen has no knowledge on Meliodas, so he can't exactly go for personal attacks. Not that Meliodas is one to fall for such tactics in the first place. Aizen's ability to read strategies is impressive, but I question how effectively Aizen will be able to read through someone who is far more technically skilled than him.

Meliodas' Abilities

Regeneration

First and foremost, I'd like to talk about Meliodas' regeneration. I feel like my opponent was far too dismissive of its applications in combat:

Meliodas' healing factor isn't exactly a healing factor. It allows demons to pull their body together if they get cut apart but it doesn't actually get rid of the damage dealt, nor would it allow Meliodas to heal from his heart(s) being destroyed.

Yes Maestro, I am aware of Meliodas' limits. However, there are a couple of glaring flaws here. You haven't proven that Aizen has the necessary output to pierce through Meliodas and destroy his hearts. DK Zeldris overpowering Meliodas on panel and landing a clean shot, only left a small cut. You would quite literally need to dwarf Meliodas in physicals to cut that deep into his flesh, and I don't think you've argued Aizen at that level just yet. In addition, the "damage" aspect has never been exploited in a meaningful way. Cusack was fine after getting sliced apart by Arthur wielding Excalibur. Chandler can instantly close a sizable hole in his chest. Mael literally got pasted and was good the next page. This becomes even worst for you considering Meliodas' high level of endurance and pain tolerance, allowing him to endure attacks away out of his league. This is how he pulls off attacks like Revenge Counter, after all. So, I don't think this really proves anything and is more so a dodgy way to admit that Aizen has nothing to get past Meliodas' regen.

Skill

I'm quite insulted by how you addressed this. I mean I showed you how Meliodas' slashes are precise enough incapacitate regenerative demons like Galan. I've shown you how Meliodas targets nerves and joints during battle to hinder mobility and create openings, or just straight up end the fight. I've shown how Meliodas can abuse his small stature in combat to get in close and deal lethal damage, like against Escanor. And I showed you how easily Meliodas can skillfully disarm weapon wielding opponents with a combination of swordplay and CQC manuevers. And this-

One such example would be his fight against Urahara and Isshin, where we see him acrobatically redirect Isshin's sword with his foot and immediately carry that movement into a simultaneous attack on the both of them. A less straightforward example would be his fight against Shinji, where he adapts to Shinji's ability which reverses all of your directions in almost no time at all.

-tells me you have nothing to counter it. Aizen attacking two people at once? That's suppose to prove he can deal with Meliodas' precision and technique? Aizen adapting to an optical illusion? That's suppose to prove he can deal with Meliodas' disarming maneuvers? I mean really, what stops Aizen from falling victim to precise slashes that physically incapacitate him or offensive strikes that targets joints and nerves to hinder his movements. Heck, I see no reason why Meliodas can't disarm Aizen from jump like he did Escanor. And then what?

You fail to understand that you can't afford to give up this skill advantage to Meliodas. Because with Meliodas, every block, every parry, every dodge, can be anticipated or used to be create an opening. After all, his disarming manuever against Escanor starts with him forcing Escanor to unconsciously block his thrown sword to create an opening from below. When Meliodas parried Drole's attacks, it was also offensive. It threw Drole off balance and left him victim to a clean slice from Lostvayne. And again, with Escanor, Meliodas used his small size to dodge Escanor's strike and move in close with a Hellblaze slice.

Full Counter (and Clones)

Full-counter is certainly a powerful ability but it's hardly insurmountable. As I've just spent so much time explaining, Aizen is not an idiot. He's more than capable of figuring out that it doesn't work on physical attacks, at which point he would adjust his strategy accordingly, whether that's by focusing on physical attacks or by only using energy attacks at close range in a way that Mel doesn't have the opportunity to FC it. Either way, it won't pose much of an obstacle for Aizen.

Once again, I don't appreciate how dismissive you are of Meliodas' advantages. Let's not mistaken Aizen's intellect for precog. Aizen is going to be caught off guard by Full Counter in a random encounter, and will likely be tagged by his reflected energy attack as a result. Given Meliodas' skill, this is all the opening he needs to pressure Aizen in CQC.

Beyond that, using energy attacks at close ranges can still be full countered as seen with Escanor. So if Aizen doesn't want to have his attack reflected right back at him with double the power, he can't use energy attacks at all. That limitation is bound to affect Aizen's overall combat effectiveness, no? Especially since Meliodas is more than willing to abuse ranged attacks, be it Hellblaze or Darkness.

To add insult to injury, Meliodas has the ability to create clones himself via Lostvayne. Doing so does not weaken the original Meliodas, mind you. These clones are used to maximize the Full Counter ability, reflecting attacks from different angles for optimal positioning. This can be seen against DK Zeldris and later on against the DK's true form. On top of that, the clones can function as a Shadow Clone Jutsu in that they can create openings by throwing off and disorienting the enemy, as seen against Galan:

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Meliodas can form complex strategies with these clones on the fly, which can actually be used in perfect tandem with Meliodas' own exceptional fighting skill if an opening is created. Now I want you to consider a realistic counter to this. An AoE energy attack is less than optimal, in fact it is what Meliodas wants you to do since he can reflect it right back. Aizen can try and kill one of the clones, but that is naturally going to create openings which Meliodas should be able to capitalize on given his superior skill.

Darkness

Is this something Meliodas does frequently? I'm not necessarily contesting it but in your example, he quite clearly wasn't acting in the way he normally would, i.e. the very definition of out of character. Regardless, I fail to see how growing claws or blades will grant Meliodas any kind of advantage. Aizen is more than comfortable and capable of taking on different opponents with different unique kinds of weapons and abilities, and even besides that this is arguably something Aizen can replicate with the Hogyoku, which has allowed him to grow extra appendages, even extra heads/mouths that can shoot energy attacks.

I don't see the point in asking how frequently Meliodas uses his trademark ability. Meliodas using constructs when he was in Berserker state doesn't mean it is out of character, Maestro. To answer your question, yes Meliodas does use this tactic quite often. Quite. Often. Indeed. And Hogyoku growing extra heads is hardly comparable to Meliodas' construct versatility. I've shown him create swords, wings, and even concentrated forms of Darkness with more potency that can nearly kill the Demon King. And the energy attacks get full countered, just reminding you.

Conclusion

I think the winner of this battle is pretty clear at this point. Meliodas should have the power advantage, the versatility advantage, and the skill advantage. Meliodas has shown resistances and counters to all of Aizen's arsenal and I don't see Aizen being able to get past Meliodas' own abilities.

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mevbi

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good post

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CaptFalcon725

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Great work done here.

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maestromage

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