I'll say it straight out. This argument isn't valid, through the concept known as a Hitchen's Razor. This is, basically, a claim that is made without any sort of evidence to back it up.Applying the logic of 'what he probably means' or 'this is trollish levels of wank' doesn't count as a valid debunk, because you have provided no evidence to support your statement otherwise, and are simply trying to use rhetoric in order to win people over.
This is just a strawman fallacy. Textbook mispotrayal of an argument that I'm going to disect. Firstly let's take a look at the first two statements my opponent makes:
I'll say it straight out. This argument isn't valid, through the concept known as a Hitchen's Razor. This is, basically, a claim that is made without any sort of evidence to back it up.
My opponent says I offer no evidence for the claims against his own despite the fact that, here, I attack the very premise of his argument:
Is not demonstrating why the very foundational premise of my opponent's argument is an unsubstantiated assumption, not evidence supporting that my opponent's argument is wrong? My opponent claims that the 6th layer is infinite because Sebas said it was endless, and that Sebas is a (quote) 'very serious and precise character' and thus every word to have ever exited his mouth is therefore meant to be take in its most robotically literal meaning.
My counter to that is that A) Being a very serious character in and of itself does not prove that Sebas's statements were meant to be taken in the most literal context. Very serious people can use obvious and intended hyperboles as well, there is nothing universal that prevents someone as serious as Sebas from using a hyperbole at all whatsoever. Serious people can use obvious and intended hyperboles, very serious people can also use obvious and intended hyperboles, and extremely serious people can also use obvious and intended hyperboles. There is nothing that implies swrious people can't use hyperboles for a variety of purposes such as emphasis, highlights, obvious exaggeration to easily convey a point etc.
So when my opponent says Sebas meant his words in the most literal interpretation only because Sevas is an allegedly serious character. That's a non-sequiter because being a very serious person does not automatically imply that => You cannot use hyperboles. Whatsoever.
I'm gonna keep it real with you. I can tell you just googled 'list of fallacies' and are now just throwing the words out and hoping to make it look like I am being fallacious, and that's okay. It's an honest attempt at improving but, ultimately, mistaken. You're trying to say that being a serious character in and of itself does not prove that it must be taken in a literally. You seem to be hinging on that one particular piece of evidence, rather than the majority of the evidence I provided. The fact that they literally have to patrol the sixth layer, and they state it to be endless, the fact that they literally come from Yggdrasil, in which there are multiple worlds or universes (something you haven't been able to debunk throughout the entirety of this debate), or the fact that they likened the endless expanse of the night sky to the sixth layer (more evidence that the two are both infinite/endless, something you contend that I'll debunk later). All you're saying is that it's hyperbole because you think that it's hyperbole, which is a Hitchen's razor. You've brought up no counter evidence, and, as such, I can dismiss your claim. Stop trying to google fallacies to make yourself and your case seem more coherent, if you're going to misuse them.
Without substantiating it. Nowhere did you prove with quantifiable, demonstrable or testable evidence that:
Sebas is as serious as you claim he is. (I know Sebas is generally serious, but not as much as you claim he is.)
That every word Sebas utters is irrefutably and objectively meant to be interpreted in the most literal way ever, since being serious by itself does not mean a person is as literal as a robot at all times.
So this just an unsubstantiated claim from your side and is in fact the real Hitchen's razor.
Furthermore there is evidence that Sebas uses hyperbolesa dn not evrrything he says is the absolute literal. This is proven by this single panel:
Overlord manga chapter 33
Here Sebas says thinks to himself: "The supreme beings' (Ainz in this case) will is absolute" in the second panel, but he still defied their will (as confirmed in the last two panels). Which means that that his intial statement of the Supreme being's will being absolute was a hyperbole and that their wills aren't absolute in the most literal context.
Which absolutely rips apart the notion that every statement made by Sebas is absolutely literal about every word he utters. Moving on;
You, once again, fail to realize what is being represented in your scan. He says Supreme Beings'. Since there is no s after Beings', that implies that he's referring to the collective 41, and not just Ainz when he refers to Ainz Ooal Gown. His particular creator's will trumps Ainz's. We see this with just about every member of Nazarick, excluding, say, Albedo, Aura, and Mare. Here are some examples.
Narberal was an NPC like that. If he jokingly ordered her to kill herself, she would immediately take her own life. The reason why she had asked for permission at all was because of her absolute loyalty to her master, to whom her life belonged.
-Volume 2
“Oi, Pandora’s Actor.”
Ainz grabbed Pandora’s Actor by the shoulders and pulled him aside, as if to say, Come with me. Of course, he told Albedo and the maids to stay where they were.“I have an important question for you. I am your creator, and the one you are loyal to, right?”“Indubitably so, Ainz-sama! For as I was made by you, if you desire me to do battle with the other Supreme Beings, I shall charge into the fray without hesitation!”
- Volume 3
Shalltear Bloodfallen was a Floor Guardian of Nazarick, set over the First to Third Floors. At the same time, she was a loyal subordinate made by the Supreme Being Peroroncino. That being the case, was it not bizarre that she would be fighting Ainz Ooal Gown, who was formerly known as Momonga? Why was she doing battle with Ainz-sama, who was another member of the Forty One Supreme Beings?
If her creator had so ordered, she would obey and fight with all her strength. Even if all of Nazarick were her enemies, she would charge at them without a moment’s hesitation. Yet, this was not the case.
-Volume 3
However… if, hypothetically speaking, he had to choose only one of the 41 Supreme Beings to obey, Sebas would pick the man called Touch Me without hesitation.
-Volume 5
These are all instances in which their loyalty to Ainz is immediately overridden by their loyalty to their own particular Supreme Being. So when he says that the Supreme Beings' will is absolute, he is referring to a particular Supreme Being and their creator, which is why he uses the plural to refer to the 41, and not a singular to refer to Ainz. So saving Tsuare, and upholding the justice that was so important to Touch Me, Sebas' creator, is in line with the behavior of Floor Guardians, and makes sense in the context of what he said. So, no, he did not speak in hyperbole here. In fact, he was just as literal as usual, which further supports and substantiates my point. By the way, the manga isn't the source material, so anything the novel says that is contradicted by the anime or manga (though nothing was contradicted), the LN supersedes it.
He is aware of the endless and infinite nature of the sixth floor of Nazarick.
Hitchen's razor. Objective and explicit citations for this please.
The meeting of the Floor Guardians in episode two takes place within the sixth floor. Sebas also speaks of the sixth floor having an infinite sky. This isn't a Hitchen's Razor, as I provided evidence in my very first post. Please stop trying to apply philosophical razors and fallacies when you can't use them correctly.
My argument is that characters who are level 100 and above scale to Ainz and Touch Me, who scale to the World Dragon, who is able to traverse infinite expanses of space. With my logic, and my scaling, it makes sense that Sebas, too, who is physically more gifted than Ainz himself, would be able to cross this infinite expanse and verify that it is, indeed, infinite, within the time it took for Ainz to come out. I'm not even sure why you're trying to say it's unreasonable, when it's the premise of my argument.
You still haven't concretely proven that the 6th level is infinitely large.
Yes, I have. You've just decided to get stuck on a singular piece of evidence (which I debunked).
If you can't debunk my claim with actual counter evidence, or give me something that proves otherwise, then,since my claim is the one with evidence to support it, you have to concede the point.
What evidence? where is it? when is it? Nowhere have your proved anything. You said that the 6th level was infinitely large by taking one dubious statement of Sebas, said that statement was literal because Sebas is a serious person and THAT'S IT. You haven't given anything supporting any of the claims you made.
Not because he's a serious person. Sebas has been on the sixth floor. Sebas has seen the infinite sky, and Sebas has equated it to the sky above in the New World. But that's incredibly irrelevant, as you have yet to even debunk my scaling of each world in Yggdrasil being it's own universe. Not too sure why you chose that particular point to grandstand me on.
Another point of contention: Why endless =/= infinite.
Another thing I would like to mention is that 'endless' isn't = infinite automatically. Something that doesn't have an end doesn't need to be infinitely large. Take for example a circle, a circle has no beginning or end yet it is not infinitely large. The surface of the Earth has no beginning or end. You can walk in any random direction for an infinite amount of time without finding an end, but the surface of the Earth is not infinitely wide or large. Instantly debunking your argument. Because even IF Sebas meant that literally, there are still two contexts
A circle is, by definition, infinite. A circle is, actually, a symbol for infinity and has been used to represent it. Quote from my second source, both of which are from academic, and accredited sites.
The circle is a universal symbol with extensive meaning. It represents the notions of totality, wholeness, original perfection, the Self, the infinite, eternity, timelessness, all cyclic movement, God ('God is a circle whose centre is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere' (Hermes Trismegistus))
Also, a sphere, or a planet, has infinite faces. For something to be known as 'endless' it has to be 'infinite' in some regard. It is why infinite and endless are synonyms, and why the two can be used interchangeably. So, yes, endless does, in fact, equal infinite.
Why Ainz, or any Overlord character, isn't infinitely fast
First off, there is no such thing as 'infinite+'. There is only infinity this a mathematical fact. Travelling infinite infinitely large universes is still only infinitely fast. Furthermore the thing about all the characters like members of Nazarick being infinitely fast is that it leads to some infinitely crazy scaling. Because moving relative to an infinitely fast character makes you infinitely fast, even if you move at 10% of the speed of an infinitely fast character you're still infinite. Let me demonstrate what I'm saying:
Once again, you don't seem to know what you're referring to. There are actual levels of infinity, and there can be some infinities larger than others. For those who don't want to read my link, I'll break it down. Let's say you have 1 through infinity. That's a base level, or baseline, infinity. Then let's say you have 1 and 2. Decimals, such as 1.00001 are considered absolute numbers as well so, really, there is an infinite number of numbers between 1 and 2. So if we count the number of infinities between 1 and 2, and the infinite between 1 and infinity, we now have a larger infinity than just 1 to infinity. This can go on infinitely, as there is technically an infinity between each number, and between each decimal, which mathematically proves that there are different levels of infinity, and directly debunks your claim.
Shaltear moved relative to Ainz making her infinitely fast:
Gallery
Correct, Shalltear, as a level 100 character, and the strongest PVP fighter in Nazarick, is relative to Ainz in speed. Faster, most likely. This doesn't debunk my scaling, and me saying that level 100 characters have infinite speed.
Brain is able to move relative Shaltear making him infinitely fast:
Gallery
This is where I have a problem. How is he moving relatively to Shalltear? She literally embarrasses him, catches and negs all of his attacks, and is clearly playing with him. Even a relaxed Shalltear is able to make fun of Brain, who is as fast as light.
The speed was like a flash of lightning. So fast that by the time the light entered your vision, your head would already be falling to the ground. Millions of repetitions had finally resulted in a speed that entered the realm of gods.
I got her.
Brain was certain—
—and couldn’t help but widen his eyes.
The slash that cut through the air had all of his strength behind it. If she had managed to dodge, then he would have been forced to admit that an opponent stronger than even his wildest imagination had finally appeared before him.
However—
Shalltear had caught it with her fingers.
—a slash near the speed of light.
And with a delicate motion like holding the wings of a butterfly—.
The air around him seemed to freeze. Brain exhaled a large breath.
“… I-Impossible.”
His voice carried barely a whisper.
Brain forcefully held back his body that was threatening to tremble uncontrollably. He couldn’t believe the sight in front of him. But without a doubt, resting on his outstretched blade were two fingers, both white as pearls— her thumb and index finger.
Not only that, her wrist was bent at a 90 degrees angle while holding the flat side of the blade, instead of the sharp edge. Rather than stopping it head on, she had caught up to the katana’s speed— caught up to his 「God Slash」 from behind.
Although it looked as if she was holding it lightly, no matter how hard Brain pushed and pulled against her, the katana didn’t budge. It felt as if the sword was chained to a boulder hundreds of times his size.
Suddenly, the power exerted on the katana rose, causing Brain to almost lose his balance.
“Hmph. Cocytus has a few swords too, but it seems they’re not even worth being wary about when there’s this much of a difference between the wielders."
...
She had easily caught his light-speed slash.
Now before you go 'BUT IT SAYS LIGHTNING', it actually says that it's like a 'flash of lightning' referring to the light emitted by lightning. It also, then, directly calls it a light speed slash, which she easily caught. So, no, Brain is not at all relative to Shalltear.
Climb is able to move relative to move relative to Brain:
Gallery
Doesn't make him relative.
Climb is even able to dodge a punch from a bloodlusted Sebas(who my opponent claimed was infinitely fast):
Gallery
This isn't a full power punch from Sebas. He's using intimidation to make his body incapable of being moved, and this test was to test his bravery, not his speed.
At about 0:54, he says 'How does it feel to overcome the Fear of Death?' which is a direct reference to what I'm saying. He's not punching as hard or as fast as he can, rather, he was trying to get Climb to overcome the fear of death and be able to move while terrified.
So I guess Climb, an unskilled, untalented, unexperienced boy who doesn't even scale to regular soliders of the army picked up from the slums is consistently infinitely fast? Along with all the other peak humans?
I rest my case. Moving on:
This case has insomnia. None of what you said held up to any scrutiny. Brain doesn't scale to Shalltear, and Climb doesn't scale to Sebas. Stop trying to take things out of context.
Ainz isn't infinitely fast himself, in his fight against Shaltear, Ainz's TGOALID speel had a 12 second cool down agaimst Shaltear, yet they most certainly didn't accomplish infinite tasks or attack infinitely:
That skill was called 「The Goal Of All Life Is Death」.
In that moment, a clock face appeared behind Ainz, its hands indicating 12:00. Then, he cast a spell:
“「Widen Magic - Cry of the Banshee」.”
A woman’s wail echoed through the air. This cry carried with it an instant-death effect.
Ainz had used various skills to augment this spell, so its potency was greater than normal and harder to resist. Still, it was useless against Shalltear and the Einherjar construct.
Oddly enough, Shalltear’s summoned minions — who had no resistance to instant death — did not fall.
This situation was quite bizarre, but Ainz remained unmoved. Rather, one could say that things were going as planned.
Tick.
The clock face behind Ainz ticked, and its hands slowly moved as the spell took effect.
Ainz glanced at Shalltear in the distance as his health dwindled under the onslaught of the Einherjar, and at the same time he felt quite disappointed.
...So I can’t finish this cleanly, huh? Damn you, Peroroncino, did you build her specifically to counter me? To think you actually gave her a resurrection item! Dammit!
Ainz cursed his guildmate within his heart.
Ainz frantically struggled to avoid the attacks of the Einherjar. After twelve seconds had passed, the hour hand had completed a full circuit, and it pointed to the heavens once more.
If all these characters were indeed infinitely fast, would there not be an infinite sequence of events in this 12 second span? Clearly, they didn't, he was only able to accomplish a finite amount of things in 12 seconds, in the anime as well:
Finite amount of strikes in 12 seconds = finite speed, Ainz got tagged by something that is explicitly finite in speed. That white thing attacking Ainz is an einherjar that has the same stats as Shaltear and was pressuring Ainz with a few strikes in 12 seconds. Therefore Ainz is not infinite+ in speed.
Therefore, debunked. Thank you for reading.
This is a terrible case. You're now trying to go all the way down to arguing for time frames within fiction? By that logic, any movie with the Flash should make any action from his perspective take hours while he's running, even though it only takes a second. Or Goku should take days to have a five minute fight. Time Dilation is not a valid argument when being used in fiction, because they can't animate multiple hour long scenes for characters moving at these speeds. And, how would you even animate someone performing an infinite amount of actions? We're just supposed to watch Ainz and Shalltear fight for the rest of eternity? This isn't a valid argument.
World Dragon
*sigh* Okay, once again, you're using a literal logical fallacy in order to substantiate your claims. My arguments may take you a long time to comprehend, simply because of how elaborate and sound my arguments are in comparison to yours. But Aero, you may be saying, what fallacy did I use? Well, you used a False Equivalence.
No that wasn't a false equivalence at all. A false equivalence is insinuating that entity A reatins the properties/characteristics or simply put is equivalent, generally or in one specific regard, to entity B because they are equivalent in another, irrelevant apect, like saying a Christian is evil because Hitler was Christian. However I never insinuated that they were equivalent, ever. I said that the Odin statement was a consequence of your logic, it was an example of what your logic could lead to. It was just to demonstrate that dubious statements were not meant to be taken literally. It was an example as I explicitly stated so.
That is a false equivalence. You're saying that one is a statement, and the other is a statement, and because I think one thing about one statement, I must think the same about another, when the context of the statement, the evidence supporting said statement, differs. Logic is not set in stone, nor can it only be defined in one way. I accept statements that have evidence to back them up.
That Odin argument was not the primary argument I made. Again, a mispotrayal of my arguments and my stance. The primary and first argument I made was this:
This was the first and the primary counter I offered, something you completely and blatantly ignored. My primary argument was attacking the assumption you made, that the statement "countless leaves" somehow meant "Too many leaves for Yggdrasil to count".
This assumption is completely unsubstantiated as it very well could be (and probably was) used as a hyoerbole. That possibility exists and this time, unlike with the Sebas statement, you didn't even bother to offer even the slightest bit of evidence that the statement was meant to be used in the most literal context. And I'm not even sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
I dismissed it because it's headcanon. In no way, shape or form did you provide to me any evidence that it's hyperbole. It is just because you say so. You keep trying to shift the burden of proof onto me, despite me giving my evidence already. My evidence has been given, and you've failed to offer any counter evidence that a) sticks or b) is outside of you just saying so.
But either way, prove that the statement was written in the context that you interpret it as or get out. Simple.
My claim had evidence to back it up, but Odin is clearly not 'Omnipotent'. The fact that Odin is consistently overpowered, and beaten, is evidence that he is not omnipotent. By providing evidence, such as him being defeated, that makes my claim valid, and an accurate debunk. The fact alone that you're saying that Galactus > Odin directly debunks the statement of him being omnipotent, as it's impossible to be omnipotent+.
Being omnipotent+ is as logical as being infinite+, that is, complete and utter nonsense. Except I wasn't being serious, and you are. Think about it.
But in conclusion, you need to prove that the 'countless leaves' are in fact intended in the context you're intepreting them as. And prove that the universe are infinitely large while you're at it.
I've proven above why you can be above baseline infinite. You cannot be above omnipotent. There is no such thing as 'more omnipotent'. And, in the end, you're just shifting the burden of proof again. I've provided my evidence, you provide counter evidence, or my claim stands.
Hax Counters
When did I ever say that he's immune to everything without limits? You seem to be trying to take my arguments out of context in order to apply the only fallacy that you seem to know, that being the No Limits Fallacy. I actually said this;
This directly debunks you calling me on a 'NLF', because I directly say what these resistances and immunities scale to, or, to put it simply, I put a limit on them. So how is this at all a No Limits Fallacy? Not too sure there, bud.
Yes you limted them to universal...Which doesn't mean anything because according to you the universes in Overlord are limitless or infinitely large.
So you limited them to something that is limitless. And that isn't an NLF?
There are varying degrees of infinite, and greater constructs than universal. So, it isn't a NLF.
Are you actually myopic or pretending? Did you somehow miss that that was the very first thing I addressed in my counter?
So instead of making random appeals to incredulity fallacies, how about you actually address the reason for that statement before spending an entire para not doing so?
Once again, I feel no need to prove my claim. It's directly stated to not be a metaphor, and you're claiming it's a transmutation. You didn't provide any evidence. What was it transmuted into? What did it become? It's directly described as 'dead air'. What is dead air? What did Ainz turn the oxygen and carbon in the air into? If you can't answer these questions, then you just have to accept that he just killed it. Took his magic glock, and shot air to death.
You also have to realize that it's not just making it impossible to breathe air. It's literally called 'dead air', and anyone who breathes it would die.
Or it's just transmutation that corrodes the air and everything it touches and the dead air is just a hyperbole? And the statement stating it isn't a metaphor is also a hyperbole meant to hype the attack up?
You can't corrode air, so I'm not even sure what you're talking about. Also, so the statement that it isn't a metaphor is just hyperbole. Right. Okay. What's your evidence that this isn't true, outside of the massive reach that is 'well he just transmuted it'. I'll wait.
Yeah I get what negative energy is, but how is negative energy type damage from normal damage in terms of consequences is what I was asking you.
As far as Death and Cry of the Banshee, yes, Cry of the Banshee, while amped with TGOALID to neg Shalltear's instant death spell immunity, was able to kill her, her homunculis, and everything around them, all of whom scale to that vastly above universal baseline, as I stated before, which you have failed to debunk.
You haven't proven anyone Overlord is universal
You completely failed to address or debunk the World Dragon eating the universes. Like, you completely ignored it. You haven't addressed it at all. You're simply trying to prove that he didn't eat an infinite amount of these, but even if you say he didn't eat an infinite universes, he still ate a lot of them, which puts Ainz, and every other level 100 creature, at above baseline universal. Far above it. So I'm not sure why you're saying I haven't proven anyone to be universal.
No you haven't. Since you haven't proved that anyone in Overlord is universal. Ainz has direct antifeats that refute any notion of him being universal. TGOALID, something you claim is universal is quite literally, on panel, not universal:
Gallery
Overlord chapter 14
Just screams 'universal +' doesn't it?
You don't need universal range to have universal AP. Don't even know why you said this. I also never claimed TGOALID is universal, because it's not even an attack. It's an amp. Ainz himself is far above baseline universal, and TGOALID allows him to ignore death immunities and resistance, of which Galactus has none.
This scan doesn't really do anything. I've already proven that Ainz is more than fast enough to dodge Galactus' eye lasers, through the infinite scaling you failed to debunk.
Addressed
Debunked.
Ainz not only has time stop magic of his own, but he has counter-measures for time stop magic.
What feats does the stuff he resisted have?
Other level 100 players have time stop, which means it must scale to their abilities. This means he has time stop on a universal+ scale, which Ainz can resist due to his ring.
Ainz has spells to deal with this as well, should Galactus hide behind intangibility.
Astral Smite: A 8th tier spell. It is an attack that is effective against Ethereal beings. This also counts against beings, who are temporarily Ethereal
Astral smite? Sounds like a soul attack. Besides and yet again, what feats does it have?
Directly states that it hurts Ethereal beings. Irrelevant what it sounds like.
This is irrelevant. Ainz has magics that I've already listed earlier that can negate resurrection on a physical, astral, and mental level. Unless you can show me a scan of Galactus coming back after being destroyed on these three levels, while also having his regen blocked, Ainz can kill him.
Again, what feats does this have to suggest it can do anything at all to Galactus at all?
I've already shown Ainz's instant death spells working on other level 100 characters, not sure why you keep grandstanding this point. What resistance feats does Galactus have? You've provided none.
Final Thoughts
My opponent completely failed to debunk my universal arguments for the World Dragon, and simply focused on the number of universes destroyed, rather than on the fact that he was destroying universes which to me means that he goes along with my scaling. He also failed to understand that there are different sizes of infinity. I've accurately debunked each and every single one of my opponent's points against me, and he has failed to prove that Galactus resists any of Ainz's attacks. He was incapable of finding a single instance in which Sebas spoke in hyperbole or with dramatic effect, and failed to debunk the size of the Tomb of Nazarick's sixth floor. I also pointed out the many logical fallacies and philosophical razors that my opponent tried to use, and made it clear that he overly relied on rhetoric, or points that were 'hyperbole' simply because he wished them to be.
I'm gonna keep it real with you. I can tell you just googled 'list of fallacies' and are now just throwing the words out and hoping to make it look like I am being fallacious,
Tell based on what? Calling out fallacies is bread and butter for a CV debator and I learnt then a little after I joined CV and have used them extensively. Where did this even come from? like at all? Why is this at all relevant? Why are you looking down on me when you're going to lose this CaV unanimously?
You're trying to say that being a serious character in and of itself does not prove that it must be taken in a literally.
Yes: because, as I said:
Being a very serious character in and of itself does not prove that Sebas's statements were meant to be taken in the most literal context. Very serious people can use obvious and intended hyperboles as well, there is nothing universal that prevents someone as serious as Sebas from using a hyperbole at all whatsoever. Serious people can use obvious and intended hyperboles, very serious people can also use obvious and intended hyperboles, and extremely serious people can also use obvious and intended hyperboles. There is nothing that implies swrious people can't use hyperboles for a variety of purposes such as emphasis, highlights, obvious exaggeration to easily convey a point etc.
~Me in my opener
.
You seem to be hinging on that one particular piece of evidence,
I'm not really.
rather than the majority of the evidence I provided.
Let's get this right dude. You have only one piece of evidence that rests on your unsubstantiated and debunked interpretation of Sebas's statement. So when you say 'majority', it really makes no sense majority one is one.
The fact that they literally have to patrol the sixth layer, and they state it to be endless,
Something you haven't
Proven that it was intended to be literal.
Possible for them to know.
All you're saying is that it's hyperbole because you think that it's hyperbole, which is a Hitchen's razor.
Strawman fallacy. I claimed it was a hyperbolic statement because it was impossible for Sebas to actually know (for a fact) that the sky was endless:
I claimed it was a hyperbole because Sebas would have to be infinitely fast for this statement to even be possibly true literally. And note that my opponent's ENTIRE argument for infinitely fast characters rests on this exact statement. So he can't say use Sebas . The argument that supports Overlord characters (including Sebas) being infinitely fast needs Sebas to be infinitely fast for that argument to be true.
Which is mathematically and objectively circular logic and is a fallacy. Which is why Sebas's statement is indeed a hyperbole, because that statement needs him to be infinitely fast for it not to be a hyperbole which you can't prove without using circular logic. Moving on:
You, once again, fail to realize what is being represented in your scan. He says Supreme Beings'. Since there is no s after Beings', that implies that he's referring to the collective 41, and not just Ainz when he refers to Ainz Ooal Gown.
Let me demonstrably prove why that statement implies Ainz's will is also absolute;
Fact: The wills of the supreme beings are absolute.
Fact: Ainz is a supreme being.
Implication: Ainz will is absolute.
Fact: Sebas defied Ainz's will
Implication: Ainz's will is not literally absolute (like a law of physics) and Sebas's statement was a hyperbole
Conclusion: Sebas can use hyperboles.
His particular creator's will trumps Ainz's
Exactly therefore Ainz's will and the will of all the supreme beings other than his creator are all not absolute despite being stated to be absolute hence that statement was a hyperbole.
We see this with just about every member of Nazarick, excluding, say, Albedo, Aura, and Mare. Here are some examples.
These are all instances in which their loyalty to Ainz is immediately overridden by their loyalty to their own particular Supreme Being. So when he says that the Supreme Beings' will is absolute, he is referring to a particular Supreme Being and their creator, which is why he uses the plural to refer to the 41, and not a singular to refer to Ainz.
"Supreme beings' will" grammatically means 'The will of the supreme beings'. Therefore debunked.
The meeting of the Floor Guardians in episode two takes place within the sixth floor. Sebas also speaks of the sixth floor having an infinite sky. This isn't a Hitchen's Razor, as I provided evidence in my very first post.
You haven't proved he meant it literally. Moot point
Also you completely ignored this point:
Nowhere did you prove with quantifiable, demonstrable or testable evidence that:
Sebas is as serious as you claim he is. (I know Sebas is generally serious, but not as much as you claim he is.)
That every word Sebas utters is irrefutably and objectively meant to be interpreted in the most literal way ever, since being serious by itself does not mean a person is as literal as a robot at all times.
Concession accepted.
What evidence? where is it? when is it? Nowhere have your proved anything. You said that the 6th level was infinitely large by taking one dubious statement of Sebas, said that statement was literal because Sebas is a serious person and THAT'S IT. You haven't given anything supporting any of the claims you made.
Not because he's a serious person.
No, that was the sole basis for your argument:
The only basis for the legitimacy for the statement is Sebas being serious.
Sebas has been on the sixth floor. Sebas has seen the infinite sky
You can't see something that is infinitely large in its entirely. Neither can you verify that it is infinitely large by just sight. I've already sufficiantly hammered why it is impossible for Sebas to know that the sky is infinitely large.
Defending why 'endless =/= infinite' :
A circle is, by definition, infinite. A circle is, actually, a symbol for infinity and has been used to represent it. Quote from my second source, both of which are from academic, and accredited sites.
What it's used to represent in non mathematical apsects is irrelevant. Fact is, mathematically and logically, a circle has a finite and quantifiable circumference, which is given by 2πr, despite the fact that a circle has no end. Therefore it is endless while simultaneously being finite in magnitude.
I repeat; the length of the circumference of a circle is finite, but still has no ends.
It doesn't really have to be a circle either. It could any closed object, it vould be a triangle, square, rectangle, a pentagon etc. These are closed figures that have no beginning or end, but they still have finite perimeters.
Which proves that something can be endless while still being finite.
Also, a sphere, or a planet, has infinite faces. For something to be known as 'endless' it has to be 'infinite' in some regard.
Yes but the only relevant regard here is magnitude. Because we're talking in the context of magnitude only. Because you claimed that that the 6th layer was infinite in magnitude, infinite in size and length, so any other regard or context like 'number of faces' or what the object represents in our value systems is irrelevant. So a sphere having infinite faces (something that all curves have) does not at all make it infinite in magnitude of length. It can be endless and finite in magnitude of length. And magnitude is the only thig relevant here.
Which shows that even if Sebas meant 'endless sky' in the most literal context, it still doesn't prove that the sky was infinite in magnitude, ie: being endless does not automatically make you infinitely large. Which is what my opponent claimed.
Semantical BS regarding 'infinite' and why it slaughters the scaling in Overlord
Once again, you don't seem to know what you're referring to. There are actual levels of infinity, and there can be some infinities larger than others. For those who don't want to read my link, I'll break it down. Let's say you have 1 through infinity. That's a base level, or baseline, infinity. Then let's say you have 1 and 2. Decimals, such as 1.00001 are considered absolute numbers as well so, really, there is an infinite number of numbers between 1 and 2. So if we count the number of infinities between 1 and 2, and the infinite between 1 and infinity, we now have a larger infinity than just 1 to infinity. This can go on infinitely, as there is technically an infinity between each number, and between each decimal, which mathematically proves that there are different levels of infinity,
The levels of infinity are in an entirely different contexts that are infinitely irrelevant to the topic at hand. The articles premise and consclusion and entire context of 'infinity'was in reference to sets of numbersand and not magnitudes of numbers:
The entire concept is in relations to sets of numbers on not magnitudes of numbers. Ie:: This article does not prove that numbers with infinitely large magnitude have different levels, it proves that sets of infinite elements have different levels. Except a set of numbers and a number are two entirely different mathenatical entities that have absolutely nothing to do with each other whatsoever, neither do they retain each other's properties.
So yes this:
Why Ainz, or any Overlord character, isn't infinitely fast
First off, there is no such thing as 'infinite+'. There is only infinity this a mathematical fact. Travelling infinite infinitely large universes is still only infinitely fast. Furthermore the thing about all the characters like members of Nazarick being infinitely fast is that it leads to some infinitely crazy scaling. Because moving relative to an infinitely fast character makes you infinitely fast, even if you move at 10% of the speed of an infinitely fast character you're still infinite
is still perfectly valid.
Brain is able to move relative Shaltear making him infinitely fast:
Gallery
This is where I have a problem. How is he moving relatively to Shalltear? She literally embarrasses him, catches and negs all of his attacks, and is clearly playing with him. Even a relaxed Shalltear is able to make fun of Brain, who is as fast as light.
Clearly you didn't read what I said:
Because moving relative to an infinitely fast character makes you infinitely fast, even if you move at 10% of the speed of an infinitely fast character you're still infinite
It doesn't matter that Shaltear is able to blitz Brain. Fact is, if she is an 'infinitely+' fast character who was using some non zero percentage of her speed, he was still able to move relative to her ie: he was able to move x distance in the time that she took to move y distance, which means Brain's speed is indeed a fraction (x/y) of her speed. However, according to your arguments, Shaltear was moving infinitely fast. Therefore Brain is infinitely fast as well since some fraction of infinity = infinity.
Therefore Brain, is logically, infinitely fast.
Now before you go 'BUT IT SAYS LIGHTNING', it actually says that it's like a 'flash of lightning' referring to the light emitted by lightning. It also, then, directly calls it a light speed slash, which she easily caught. So, no, Brain is not at all relative to Shalltear.
You completely butchered the context of the word 'relative' here. Something I explained above.
Doesn't make him relative.
->Makes a claim.
->Doesn't prove it
This argument isn't valid, through the concept known as a Hitchen's Razor. This is, basically, a claim that is made without any sort of evidence to back it up.
hmmm.
Climb is even able to dodge a punch from a bloodlusted Sebas(who my opponent claimed was infinitely fast):
Gallery
This isn't a full power punch from Sebas. He's using intimidation to make his body incapable of being moved, and this test was to test his bravery, not his speed.
At about 0:54, he says 'How does it feel to overcome the Fear of Death?' which is a direct reference to what I'm saying. He's not punching as hard or as fast as he can, rather, he was trying to get Climb to overcome the fear of death and be able to move while terrified.
Addressed. Sebas was using a fraction of his speed against Climb which is still infinitely fast, which Climb was able to dodge.
Defending Ainz being finitely fast
This is a terrible case. You're now trying to go all the way down to arguing for time frames within fiction? By that logic, any movie with the Flash should make any action from his perspective take hours while he's running, even though it only takes a second. Or Goku should take days to have a five minute fight.
None of those have absolute timeframes. Ainz's bout explicitly had a timeframe of 12 seconds.
Time Dilation is not a valid argument when being used in fiction, because they can't animate multiple hour long scenes for characters moving at these speeds. And, how would you even animate someone performing an infinite amount of actions? We're just supposed to watch Ainz and Shalltear fight for the rest of eternity? This isn't a valid argument.
No but the author would have mentioned that there were endless events and the anime could have shown an FTE fight for the viewers, but they didn't, we explicitly see finite strikes in finite time. An explicit debunk to them being infinitely fast. Even then, Just the very fact that his ulitimate attack that takes 12 seconds to activate and and is still used in combat alone debunks him being infinitely fast.
TLDR
All in all I've accomplished a few things in this section:
That being serious does not mean one can take every word uttered in theost literal sense
That Sebas could not have possibly known whether the sky was endless without being inherently infinitely fast.
That his statement was indeed a hyoerbole because the only argument supporting Sebas (and everybody else) being infinitely fast requires Sebas to be infinitely fast himself which is circular logic.
That Sebas can and has used hyperboles.
The even if Sebas's statement was robotically literal. It still does not prove that the 6th layer of Nazarick was infinitely large because endless =/= infinite.
That being infinitely fast absolutely butchers the scaling in Overlord.
That ainz has on panel feats that debunk him being infinitely fast. Just the very fact that his ulitimate attack that takes 12 seconds to activate and and is still used in combat alone rips apart him being infinitely fast.
World Dragon shite
That is a false equivalence. You're saying that one is a statement, and the other is a statement, and because I think one thing about one statement, I must think the same about another.
No, that wasn't the logic I was using nowhere did I justify your statement being a hyperbole by using another statement that was a hyperbole, there is a difference between a justification for a point and a case in point. Mine was the latter, the former is what's a fakse equivalence. Furthermore you used the exact same logic I did to attack the Ainz vs Shaltear argument I made:
You're now trying to go all the way down to arguing for time frames within fiction? By that logic, any movie with the Flash should make any action from his perspective take hours while he's running, even though it only takes a second. Or Goku should take days to have a five minute fight.
So you're being a class A hypocrite right now.
I dismissed it because it's headcanon. In no way, shape or form did you provide to me any evidence that it's hyperbole. It is just because you say so. You keep trying to shift the burden of proof onto me, despite me giving my evidence already.
I'm not shifting the burden of proof. That's in fact what you're doing. You need to prove that the statement is legit because you claimed it is legit, and then proceeded to base your entire argument on that statement and now you're asking me to prove that it isn't a hyperbole? That is a textbook shifting of burden.
I've already highlighted the problem with your argument. Something you ignored many times. I'm going to repeat myself:
As I explianed abive There are many possible interpretations to 'countless leaves'. It could simply be a hyperbole, just meant to describe a relatively large amount, it could be a hyperbole meant to illustrate the number of leaves to be akin to that of a real life tree, and finally (and least likely too) your interpretation where you say "countless leaves" means "Too many leaves for Yggdrasil game processor to count". You need to objectively prove that your interpretation, which is just one of many possible interpretations, is the intended interpretation irrefutably.
Otherwise it's just mashed pile of fallacies.
Hacks
There are varying degrees of infinite, and greater constructs than universal. So, it isn't a NLF.
Yes (not actually, as I demonstrated), but they're still infinite, you limited them to something infinite in magnitude. That is objectively an NLF
Once again, I feel no need to prove my claim. It's directly stated to not be a metaphor,
Contradicted by on panel feats
What was it transmuted into? What did it become?
Same question. And it was transmuted a substance that would kill any life that inhaled it, ie: something extremely poisonous.
What did it become? It's directly described as 'dead air'. What is dead air? What did Ainz turn the oxygen and carbon in the air into?
Read above
If you can't answer these questions, then
Since I answered them, I guess I can ignore the rest
You can't corrode air, so I'm not even sure what you're talking about.
It was a metaphor.
Also, so the statement that it isn't a metaphor is just hyperbole. Right. Okay. What's your evidence that this isn't true, outside of the massivereach that is 'well he just transmuted it'. I'll wait.
I don't need more evidence. It all happened on panel
The area around them was transmuted into sand. Clearly it's just an AOE offensive transmutational attack. It''s literally right in front of you. And even if it were a death bringing attack, it has no feats of working on something remotely as absract as Galactus, which you need in order to say it can, something you've been dancing around quite well.
Directly states that it hurts Ethereal beings. Irrelevant what it sounds like.
How does it hurt ethereal beings and why does hurting ethereal beings suddenly allow it to deal with spacial intangibility? You haven't explained anything and are just trying to pass it off as a oneshotter. Astral smite, from the name, sounds like soul manip which Galactus can resist immensely because he doesn't actually possess a soul and is said to be like Infinity and Eternity, and is beyond even the soul stone:
Thanos (2003) #2
Conclusion
I've butchered my opponents arguments and counter-arguments harder than he butchered context. In my post I have proven:
That being serious does not mean one can take every word uttered in theost literal sense
That Sebas could not have possibly known whether the sky was endless without being inherently infinitely fast.
That his statement was indeed a hyoerbole because the only argument supporting Sebas (and everybody else) being infinitely fast requires Sebas to be infinitely fast himself which is circular logic.
That Sebas can and has used hyperboles.
The even if Sebas's statement was robotically literal. It still does not prove that the 6th layer of Nazarick was infinitely large because endless =/= infinite.
That being infinitely fast absolutely butchers the scaling in Overlord.
That ainz has on panel feats that debunk him being infinitely fast. Just the very fact that his ulitimate attack that takes 12 seconds to activate and and is still used in combat alone rips apart him being infinitely fast.
That my opponent has not proven that the phrase "endless leaves" means "too many leaves for the Yggdrasil computer to count anf therefore all claims of Ainz being universal, that rest on this one sole dubious interpretation of a statement, are also unsubstantiated.
That Ainz's hax aren't doing anything to Galactus because Ainz isn't universal and therefore his hax aren't universal either(unlike what my opponent claims, can still oneshot by transmuting him into a puddle of water.
That TGOALID is a transmuting attack by feats, and that even if it weren't it has no feats of working on anything remotely as powerful and abstract as Galactus.
And finally that Galactus can solo the verse
Thank you for reading, hope you enjoyed and please drop a vote.
@d_aeroflame_z: @streak619: I give my vote to Streak. He accurately explained why the use of the 6th Floor as evidence for the infinite size of the new world is fallacious and why Sebas' statement isn't concrete, while debunking the notion that 100% of Sebas' statements are meant to be taken literally as well as Ainz "infinite speed", both done through the use of undeniable, canon scans. In addition, the debate as a whole revolved entirely around Ainz, since Streak made his opener almost uncontestable and really pressed the offense, putting his opponent on the back foot. His opponents weird use of fallacies and philosophical stances and trying to faultily aplly them to Streak's arguments didn't actually help his dubious stance either.
In other words, Streak definitely won this debate.
Ignore the first, deleted post. Misinterpreted a feat
Very interesting debate overall. I came into the CaV thinking it was a mismatch in favor of Galactus, and the overall arguments presented have done very little to change my mind.
@d_aeroflame_z had well structured and fairly well thought out posts, but he was fighting a massive, massive uphill battle the entire way through. None of Ainz's concrete feats put him even in Herald tier, so I don't blame Aeroflame for using metaphors and his own interpretations of hyperbolic quotes. But that doesn't really win debates. Like pointed out by Streak, how can Sebas know the world is infinite if this is his first time seeing it? Did he travel to the end of the world and back? Doesn't make any sense. Aero provided a fantastically well researched list of Ainz's abilities, hax and resistances, but without this infinite-dimensional argument, it becomes an NLF whether the skills can affect Galactus, which streak pointed out multiple times. Saying Touch Me is universal cause he scales to the World Dragon is equivalent to saying The Last Dragonborn is universal cause he scales to Alduin. In fact, the latter is more legitimate since TLD actually beat Alduin, whereas the former is, once again, heavily reliant on hyperbole. There's at least 2 creatures in just the Tomb of Nazarick who are more powerful than Touch Me, to say nothing of the whole of Yggsdrasil. Too much of Aero's arguments hinged on far left-field interpretations of vague quotes, and without those his contentions sort of fall apart
@streak619 did fantastic research and provided indisputable feats for Galactus. Although I slightly disagree with the BCA Galactus, it doesn't deviate from his contentions as a whole. Using TGOALID and Sebas' other hyperbole quotes also dealt massive damage to Aero's argument (could also have used Fallen Down, which is a purely damaging super-tier spell that isn't even city busting), and of course Omnipotent Odin never fails. Attacking his opponents logical fallacies was also pretty effective, although it sort of degenerated into "you have to prove that I have to prove that you have to prove" towards the end. I believe there are some more concrete counterpoints to the infinite argument in the light novel (could have even used the Clementine fight from anime to prove Ainz isn't infinitely fast).
Vote goes to @streak619, since he had objective feats and more solid rebuttals in his arsenal against the vague hypoerbole of his opponent. I don't think it was a fair matchup for Aero to begin with though
Sorry for double posting, but I just realized that my first comment was actually correct, and I didn't misinterprete anything. Re-reading through, @d_aeroflame_z claimed the 6th floor of Nazarick was infinite in size as one of his contentions to boost the power level of Ainz. That's directly contradicted in the light novel, volume VII chapter 4
And after a flight of who knew how long, Arche stared despair in the face.
It was a wall.
An invisible wall stood in front of her.
The world went on beyond it, but Arche’s body was blocked by that wall. Arche was now two hundred meters above ground level and the invisible wall had reached this high.
“—This is—”
Arche muttered to herself as despair seeped into her heart. She flew and felt around with her hands. But… wall, wall, wall, still a wall.
No matter where she flew, her hands told her there was something hard in her way.
“What is this?!”
“A wall, of course.”
It was an answer to her self-directed mutterings. Arche turned around, with an idea of who she might see.
It was as she had expected. The girl from earlier. But now she had a trio of giant bats as her escorts.
“Though it seems you’ve gotten the wrong impression. This is the 6th floor of the Great Tomb of Nazarick. That is to say, you’re underground.”
“…This?”
Arche pointed to the world. The sky, the stars, the gently-blowing wind, the forest which stretched as far as the eye could see. Although she did not think this place could be under the earth, when it came to these people, even that might be a possibility.
And also in the anime season 3 episode 8
Loading Video...
The 6th floor actually has invisible boundaries and is situated underground. Kind of like in any open-world RPG there's always an edge to the map, no matter how big the game is. You can see PAST the wall, but you can't GO past the wall, because there's nothing interactable there. Since I can't undelete my first post and editing in gifs or vidoes doesn't seem to work half the time, I'll just post it again. This is another major reason I gave Streak my vote
@thetruthiii: I mean, you're right, but it should have no bearing on your vote. After all neither Streak nor Aero brought up this point, despite me telling Streak it was an option multiple times.
@d_aeroflame_z: @streak619: Had to read it a few times, but after going through it I vote for streak. It basically turned into a discussion of definitions and how much you can take statements at face value. This discussion went IMO in favour of streak, since he was able to actually find contradictions in the sources/from the characters who made the statements. He also had the advantages of clear on panel feats, which gave him the possibility to clearly show that Galactus performances were above the level of Ainz
@thetruthiii: I mean, you're right, but it should have no bearing on your vote. After all neither Streak nor Aero brought up this point, despite me telling Streak it was an option multiple times.
It means Aero was using points that were directly contradicted in the story. Can't in good conscience vote for someone who uses objectively false proof in backing his arguments. Unlike the thing about proving infinity or hax resistance or whatnot, this is something that's undeniable by any standard no matter how you interpret it. Not hyperbole, not metaphor. So I factored it into my vote
Eh, the reason I didn't use that was because he claimed the sky was infinite, an invisible shield doesn't really stop that, but, I'll be sure to remember that.
@streak619: Yea.....this is like your first CaV only you're on the giving end. I have to voice how absurd it is in a very detailed and nitpicky paragraph.
@streak619: Yea.....this is like your first CaV only you're on the giving end. I have to voice how absurd it is in a very detailed and nitpicky paragraph.
The gap is way bigger too haha. And thanks man, I look forward to your vote.
Welp, for those of you who know me you know not to take anything I say too seriously and in all cases this was a good debate. Being said.....
*sips tea, neatly folds newspaper titled 'daily debater' and exhales a relaxed sigh*
The Good:
That opener for the Big - G in all cases has potential to be in my all time favorite CaV posts list (ill gladly link my top 10 if anyone needs it) and I am by no means being generous; if streak would have simply finished the job and banged it out completely it would have been immaculate, however the lack of substance to counter makes it reasonable. AF did a decent job presenting Ainz but it should have been longer and more detailed.
The Bad:
Like seriously.....the second round I think you both were just looking for things to counter at that point. The debate didn't seem to move as AF claimed streak didn't counter anything.....but it was pretty certain the debate was practically already over as he didn't really bother too much on how Ainz would actually resist Galactus' attacks except TP, which I still don't buy as telepathy can work on sentient beings period; whatever is transferring thought is what is being attacked not necessarily the brain.
The Ugly:
Oh my goodness folks do not open this spoiler if you are the feint of heart.
In every regard AF, your argument was an asspull. Now you see there is a certain technique to asspulling and it very much so involves timing, precision, and clever avoidance schemes. You had none of these. I came in this thread with the most open of minds and was utterly flabbergasted by your very first post where the absurdity reached truly infinite levels. If you knew you were vastly in the minority here you were supposed to have every step of this debate mapped effectively, instead you immediately sprang the bullcrap on us from the jump. I kid you not the very first words that came out of my mouth when I read this:
Ainz directly scales to Touch Me and, while, he hasn't ever beaten him, which can be attributed to Touch Me's build hard countering Ainz's (a warrior build, and a Paladin, with Ainz having weak physical defense and a weakness to holy and fire attributes), but he still scales to him, as he never once states it's a flat out stomp, and, of course, Touch Me entrusts Ainz with the Guild after his departure, indicating he thought Ainz was not only strong enough, but the best fit if not him. Admittedly, the average World Champion can take on about 3 high level players at once, while a World Enemy can take on 30, but when dealing with infinites such as universal, a 10x difference isn't all that much, and is negligible. So, with this scaling, you can easily put Ainz at having some massive power.
Were 'I'm, done' where I then had to purposely intoxicate myself, comeback, and still end up completely dumbfounded as to where, when, and how this scaling goes. Then practically the entire basis of your argument, the whole endless wasn't hyperbolic completely threw your argument off the moment I read what you're talking about. If Alexander the great says the Persians were 'endless' were they infinite? Not to mention your entire speed argument is hinged on them crossing supposed 'Infinite' distance which really made it hard not to burst out laughing at that point.
The way I feel you should have effectively made this asspull was simply note that the worlds are endless as stated (and by god hope he doesn't probe there) then top it off with the whole 'countless leaves' thing; this extra bit right here wasn't needed whatsoever and only hurt you by a substantial degree:
While, usually, this would be of no real importance, one has to realize that something without an end is infinite, meaning that the computer system that runs Yggdrasil is able to render and compute infinite quantities and, yet, it is incapable of computing or rendering the number of worlds there were. This means that there has to be a beyond endless, or beyond infinite number of worlds that were eaten over the course of one day, meaning that the World Dragon, itself, is far beyond baseline universal in terms of raw power.
Then the part where you have another statement from Ainz is where you should have left the evidence up for interpretation so instead of being called on this rather clear load, you could instead make the point about debunking his interpretation(Hope_W exclusive, take notes). Other than that this debate was simply hopeless on your end, even I cant fathomably comprehend the hoops and sidestepping you'd have to go through to effectively make a case of Ainz doing any actual harm to Galactus. It is beyond even my imagination to think of what one could asspull for Ainz winning here based off what's been shown and therefore streak has won indisputably. However you are and have been an extremely good sport and accept criticism good and bad, I wish you luck in your debating career.
@hope_w: Thanks a ton for that detailed vote man, and this:
That opener for the Big - G in all cases has potential to be in my all time favorite CaV posts list (ill gladly link my top 10 if anyone needs it) and I am by no means being generous; if streak would have simply finished the job and banged it out completely it would have been immaculate, however the lack of substance to counter makes it reasonable.
is much appreciated, you flatter me. And yes, I will admit I did get a bit overconfident in the first post with the counters. I think I would have done much better if I had the same mindset I had for the first post that I did for my counter. Maybe it was because I was quite pumped about the Galactus material and hence didn't do as much justice to the counters. Regardless, thanks for pointing it out and, again, for voting.
What is this Ainz wank I don't even. infinite speed? the verse doesn't even have feats above hypersonic or city block busting. it's insane that this even exists.
I'll be honest, when I first saw Streak was repping Galactus, my initial reactions were along the lines of "oh shit this is gonna be bad," but Streak did a great job repping Galactus and supporting his claims. While the debate did unfortunately come down to essentially semantics, Streak basically destroyed. Aeroflame never actually countered Streak's well made opener and instead just focused on (shakily) arguing that Ainz was universal and infinite, which Streak put highly into question at the very least. If you can't tell my vote goes to streak.
Oh and it's not important, but it really bothered me so that scan with Galactus taking shape as a Star is technically Silver Surfer vol 3 since there was a one-shot that counts as Surfer vol 2 in the 80s
Oh I see, sorry I didn't know. I vote galactus then
It's alright. Read the rules in the 1st page. You have to base your vote on who had the better argument, and you have to give reasons for why you think whoever you voted for had the better argument.
I'll be honest, when I first saw Streak was repping Galactus, my initial reactions were along the lines of "oh shit this is gonna be bad," but Streak did a great job repping Galactus and supporting his claims. While the debate did unfortunately come down to essentially semantics, Streak basically destroyed. Aeroflame never actually countered Streak's well made opener and instead just focused on (shakily) arguing that Ainz was universal and infinite, which Streak put highly into question at the very least. If you can't tell my vote goes to streak.
Thanks for the vote. I'm glad I was able to exceed your initial expectations
Oh and it's not important, but it really bothered me so that scan with Galactus taking shape as a Star is technically Silver Surfer vol 3 since there was a one-shot that counts as Surfer vol 2 in the 80s
That opener for the Big - G in all cases has potential to be in my all time favorite CaV posts list (ill gladly link my top 10 if anyone needs it) and I am by no means being generous; if streak would have simply finished the job and banged it out completely it would have been immaculate, however the lack of substance to counter makes it reasonable. AF did a decent job presenting Ainz but it should have been longer and more detailed.
I second this
I initially didn’t want to vote but after rereading the argument(and rereading few more times), I’ll have to give my vote to streak. He had a rock solid opener and while I already said that this CaV was basically devolving into a game of semantics, he did a better job of proving that Ainz’s powers relied mainly on hyperbole, as shown by some inconsistencies/contradictions from the characters. Also, as rac95 said, he did show on panel feats from galactus to counter statements from overlord giving him a more solid ground.
For these reasons stated, and the reasons of others, I give Streak my vote.
Everything else has already been said so I'll just keep this really short. I came in to this knowing nothing about Overlord, but even with that in mind, the arguments for Ainz were just... so, so bad, especially when it came to all the infinite speed stuff. Meanwhile I was actually pretty impressed with Streak's arguments for the most part, he definitely repped Galactus much better than I expected he would. There are a few feats he brought up throughout the debate both in his opener and counters which I don't agree with, but overall this was very clearly a one-sided debate.
Not to mention aeroflame was a smug asshole the whole time and said possibly the most ironic things I've ever seen on CV
I'm gonna keep it real with you. I can tell you just googled 'list of fallacies' and are now just throwing the words out and hoping to make it look like I am being fallacious, and that's okay. It's an honest attempt at improving but, ultimately, mistaken.
Stop trying to google fallacies to make yourself and your case seem more coherent, if you're going to misuse them.
Please stop trying to apply philosophical razors and fallacies when you can't use them correctly.
Despite the fact that he said this shit
This argument isn't valid, through the concept known as a Hitchen's Razor. This is, basically, a claim that is made without any sort of evidence to back it up.
You're, once again, using a Hitchen's Razor.
All you're saying is that it's hyperbole because you think that it's hyperbole, which is a Hitchen's razor.
If you're going to link a Wikipedia article that explains what something is at least read it first lmao.
Meanwhile I was actually pretty impressed with Streak's arguments for the most part, he definitely repped Galactus much better than I expected he would.
Means a lot man, especially coming from you lol
There are a few feats he brought up throughout the debate both in his opener and counters which I don't agree with,
I see, it would be great if you could elaborate a little on them please, that would be much appreciated.
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