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#1 Edited by HigherPower (12181 posts) - - Show Bio

A rather peculiar match up, but one that I think many of the viewers will enjoy. In the right corner, we have the burly-

Brock Samson

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Represented by none other than the talented @elijah_c_washington.

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In the left corner, we have the the shadowy-

Afro Samurai

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Represented by yours truly.

Rules

  • Standard gear
  • Standard morals
  • Random encounter
  • Fight to KO/death
  • Start 20m apart and visible

Location

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Voters:

  • Please refrain from posting your opinion on the match until it's done.
  • Ask to be tagged if you wished to be tagged for voting.
  • Don't vote on who you think is more powerful, but on who had the better arguments.
  • When giving your vote, give an explanation on why you think the person won
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#2 Posted by HigherPower (12181 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

What happened to the 2v2 aspect?

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#4 Posted by HigherPower (12181 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by HigherPower (12181 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18240 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#10 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Edited by Just_Banter (12352 posts) - - Show Bio

Why did this tag work

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#12 Edited by HigherPower (12181 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14676 posts) - - Show Bio

RIP in peace me.

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#14 Posted by deactivated-5a93651393625 (929 posts) - - Show Bio

This might be interesting. T4V.

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#15 Posted by joshua755 (3794 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me

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#16 Edited by Jirou (531 posts) - - Show Bio

I would like a tag *sips tea*

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#17 Posted by deactivated-5b2dd32201ad6 (2795 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a very unique match. T4V

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#18 Posted by IndomitableRegal (15649 posts) - - Show Bio

Sure, why not. T4V.

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#19 Edited by DeathHero61 (18682 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

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David Bowie. You're lucky I don't kill you right here for what you pulled in Berlin.

Brock Samson, A.K.A. Walking Swedish Murder Machine, A.K.A. Super Kill-Guy, A.K.A. Murderist Extraordinaire, is the legendary bodyguard of celebrity super-scientist Dr. Thaddeus S. “Rusty” Venture and his two sons, Hank and Dean. He is a highly trained undercover agent of the Office of Secret Intelligence and possesses a license to kill which he uses to its fullest extent. Monarch Henchman #21 has lost so many of his brothers-in-arms to Brock alone he coined the phrase, “Death by Samson.”

Anyway, @god_vulcan, seeing as this is your first street-level CaV and I myself am interested in trying something new, I think I’m only going to cover one or two major topics per post as opposed to covering every single stat, every facet of my character’s skill/fighting style, equipment, the main argument, etc. all at once. First thing’s first: there’s nothing to talk about if I can’t prove Brock Samson won’t be blitzed by the samurai.

Speed | On Brock Keeping Up

Early on in the first season of The Venture Bros, Brock very nearly caught a speeding X-1 (the Venture family’s experimental supersonic jet) on foot during takeoff then succeeded in tagging it with a rock after it was already up in the air, demonstrating an incredibly high level of speed in terms of movement. More to the point, I believe this would be applicable to combat as well provided how fast his arm would have to have been moving to throw a rock hard enough to tag something moving faster than sound that was already so far away; not to mention, the rock would have only slowed down after leaving his hand due to drag.

However, this feat alone may not be enough to prove Brock has the speed to contend. After all, Afro has dodged, blocked, and cut down bullets, on top of various other highly impressive speed feats. So, this is where I introduce you and the voters to Molotov Cocktease, the Black Widow of the Venture-verse.

Molotov herself has timed Tank Top’s cannon which is a literal tank, only shrunken down as to fit on his shoulders. Still, there’s just no reason to assume it was significantly slower than the real thing, if at all - this is especially the case given she's always very fast having caught Brock's knife in her teeth in her first official appearance; killed four other O.S.I. agents in the brief few seconds Shore Leave was stuck in the closet; acrobatically evaded all of Shore's bullets while moving towards him despite him being a terrific shot with feats I am ready to provide upon request; and lastly, managed to catch herself after knocking the O.S.I’s flying headquarters off balance with an explosion whereas Shore Leave, an agent essentially second only to Brock, failed to do the same.

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Later in the episode, Hank Venture - athletic and trained by Brock but adolescent and generally an idiot - in a suit of power armor moved faster than a speeding bullet to save Sergeant Hatred’s life (okay, you’re just going to have to go along with all these names). This is relevant because later still into the episode Brock fought Molotov equipped with the very same bullet-timing strength-suit armed with nothing but his iconic bowie knife and won.

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Context: In truth, Brock didn’t really kill her like the above video might have you believe, but he nevertheless defeated her fair-and-square. At the time, Molotov was on an undercover mission to test the security of the O.S.I. and before he threw her into the rotor General Hunter Gathers, leader of the O.S.I, came out and explained the true nature of the situation. In short, Brock only destroyed an empty suit, but he still beat her.

Moreover, as this fight takes place at the Venture compound, a location you decided yourself, Afro will be forced to dodge the laser turrets positioned all over the property. There’s no doubt he’s capable of this given the turrets aren’t all that accurate and Afro himself is very, very fast, but the fact remains he will have to constantly use his speed and agility to avoid them instead of being able to focus it all against Brock and overwhelm him.

In Sum

Brock may, in fact, lack comparable reaction feats to that of the Afro Samurai; regardless, I have shown he still has a lot on his side when it comes to not being overwhelmed or blitzed and keeping up overall. At any rate, I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say.

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#21 Posted by HigherPower (12181 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington: Great post! Quick, detailed and spot-on. I look forward to the debate, and hopefully I'll have my opener up within the next day.

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#22 Posted by BobLeGod (1461 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#23 Posted by SMXLR8 (6649 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@smxlr8: I make my own WebMs then upload them to Streamable, it's a viable video format for CV.

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#25 Posted by SMXLR8 (6649 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@smxlr8: Ah, but it does, doesn't it?

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#27 Posted by SMXLR8 (6649 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Edited by HigherPower (12181 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington: Very nice post mate. I'll try my best to follow suit.

Afro

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Bio

The man, the myth, the miracle. Afro, better known as the Afro Samurai (aka Number One/Two) was a ruthless and bloodthirsty vagabond who purged the bowels of the Earth, looking for revenge.

When he was merely a child, Afro witnessed helplessly as his father was beheaded in front of him...

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...This event traumatized Afro and sparked him on a life long quest for revenge. In the twisted world of Afro Samurai, there are two headbands constantly in circulation. The highly coveted Number One headband, and subsequently the Number Two. It is said whoever wears the Number One headband becomes "God", and is bestowed upon with many sought after traits like immortality and supernatural powers.

However, there is just one way to acquire the Number One headband.. and that is directly challenging it's current bearer and killing them in battle, which only the person holding the Number Two head band can do. In spite of that, the holder of the Number Two headband can be challenged in battle by anyone in the world, regardless of the person. Afro attempts to avenge his father's death by killing the [then] current Number One—a gunslinger named Justice—who obtained it from Afro's father.

Everything Physical

Afro is a fairly straightforward combatant, who earned his stripes by relying on nothing but his daunting stats and raw wit. He's a baffling beast to behold in battle; one who's casually laid waste to the countless poor souls unfortunate enough to cross his path.

In the opening scenes of both the Afro Samurai manga and anime, we see Afro exhibit his fearsome combat prowess. To us, this clip is a harrowing manslaughter of the vilest degree, but for Afro, it's just another Tuesday:

Speed

There are a lot of things to consider in that video. I'll start with speed, since that was the predominant focus of my opponents opener. In the first few seconds of battle alone, a sniper fires a bullet from a powder musket (which travels up to 370 meters per second), and after the bullet was fired, Afro does three exceptional things. First, take a closer look here-

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  1. He times the bullet, opening his eyes and then unsheathing his sword by the time it closed in on him.
  2. He cuts the bullet in half, but he does it in such a way where it doesn't split cleanly, but rather into several smaller pieces of shrapnel.
  3. He calculated the trajectory of the bullet while cutting it, to the point where he guided each fragment of the bullet to shred the bodies of several grown men behind him.

The amount of skill and precision required to replicate this opening feat (in the way he did it) places this showing far above generic bullet timing... but allow me to expand on his other speed feats first. Before his final battle with Justice, Afro completed numerous consecutive battles, and in them he sustained several grievous injuries and wounds to the point it was even noted by his opponents. But despite being cut, stabbed, burned, shot and beaten (as well as having no food or sleep for several days) Afro was swift enough to cut and weave through several bullets from Justice's .44 Magnum, which has an average muzzle velocity of at least 400+ m/s, or 1312 feet per second (Source). To put that into perspective, the speed of sound is 343 m/s at sea level, and Afro sliced and dodged multiple while bleeding out on death's door...

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But you mostly covered this already, and admittedly these two separate feats alone aren't enough to top Molotov in the suit; as she was supersonic before donning a suit that put peak humans in that range of speed as well. But Afro possesses a high end feat that convincingly classifies him as a solid hypersonic combatant. After his battle with Afro Droid, he was seen outrunning a sizable explosion detonated by one of the Empty Seven clan brothers, Brother Six:

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The expansion speed of a basic explosion is around 6,800 to 8,050 mps (Sources: 1,2,3) which is at least 19x faster than the speed of sound... Not only did Afro react to it (since it exploded point blank from his location) he moved swiftly enough not to get tagged by the blast radius, and he did so on a rickety bridge that was being eviscerated and shaking violently while he moved. That is a severely unbalanced platform as opposed to running on solid ground which would be much easier, and Afro was already injured at that point.

To my knowledge, Brock doesn't have a single speed feat to his name that can compete with double digit mach, and more so when you realize that Brock needs to rely on scaling to even be hypersonic (or just about) in the first place. On the other hand, ALL of Afro's feats are performed by himself, and each is abundantly clear without the slightest use of scaling or speculation. Contrary to that, Brock's entire fight Molotov wasn't even shown on-screen for us to judge in full. The only thing we really saw was him tagging her with a grappling gun, but she was in midair when that happened which is a truth that diminishes the weight of the feat dramatically. Then we cut to a different scene, before cutting back to see Brock punching her in the face. Yes the implications are there, but the contents of the fight are left to viewer's imagination.

Moving forward, Afro's agility is equally astonishing. He's able to twist his body midair and dodge attacks he never even directly saw, and blitz through dozens of assassins dodging attacks and dishing out attacks of his own at the same time:

Anime version-

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Manga version-

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Afro has more feats to support these ones, but I'll reveal them as the debate progresses.

Strength

Brute strength isn't Afro's most appealing attribute, but if you argue him as inferior to Brock in lifting/striking, I will rebut by proclaiming that it is irrelevant. Afro rarely brawls, as he is a master of swordplay. Notwithstanding the actuality that he has little to no strength feats, it should be duly noted that he is still impressive in that category in his own right. One of his earliest feats was effortlessly backhanding a thug (who was at least twice is weight) hard enough to send him flying several meters and through a stone wall:

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As for the cutting power of his sword (a factor tied directly to strength) Afro has consistently been able to cleave human bodies into several pieces, his sword moving seamlessly and without resistance through flesh as if he was just swinging his blade through air. Additionally, Afro has also been able to cut through the bodies of entirely mechanical tempered steel droids and cyborgs, which is even more impressive. I'm sure Brock isn't bullet proof, but Afro's sword has cut apart speeding bullets, so even if he was he'd still be decapitation material. And I know simply stabbing Brock or cutting off a limb or two is insufficient to put him down as result of his monstrous endurance, but I highly doubt he can continue to fight with his head lobbed off unlike Justice. Also, Afro also has cheap moves like gouging out eyes which he seems to be a fan of:

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Afro does gain a wealth of strength feats later, in the Resurrection movie and the manga.

Durability

Afro has tanked explosions on several different occasions. One of the Empty Seven brothers fired multiple grenades at Afro, and he tanked all of them-- the last group of the grenades resulting in a large explosion that crippled the temple entrance:

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In the anime, he survived the explosion of a RPG while poisoned (after reacting to it and cutting it in half), which had enough force to dislodge the cliff they were standing on:

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He's been penetrated by virtually every piercing attack he's encountered, and doesn't have a multitude of blunt force feats either (at least, not that I'll show yet). But I stress the fact that Brock is incapable of tagging him. Now, it's time to wrap this up.

Conclusion

At first I didn't see the point of holding back any feats from my opponent, since he's already watched Afro Samurai in full as well as seen the movie. Nonetheless, I'm interested to see what arguments you'll put forth to counter the facts that I've presented, so I decided to gauge the difficulty of this debate by releasing a relatively short opener and observe your approach to it. I don't have a lot of knowledge on Brock, but my opinion of the fight is that Afro is remarkably faster than Brock in all fronts of speed. You attempted to compensate for this fact by focusing on speed in your first post, however, Brock scaling to Molotov is depressingly inferior to Afro's explosion timing feat on the bridge. The speed difference is already mortifying, but in addition to that, I am convicted of the belief that Brock is susceptible to decapitation, as Brock has been pierced by bullets (in the instance of Monarch's henchmen) and bullets are something Afro has cut through and deflected with his blade. So Afro should have no qualms cutting through Brock.

Your move :)

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#29 Posted by HigherPower (12181 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan:

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Hey, Hank. Killed Hitler.

Counters | About the Physicals

The amount of skill and precision required to replicate this opening feat (in the way he did it) places this showing far above generic bullet timing...

This might be the case if we were using the top velocity a bullet from a black powder musket can possibly achieve the instant it leaves the barrel, but calculating a feat doesn't really work like that; as it happens, when one is calculating a feat they plan on using in a debate that gave you no numbers to work with in-canon, they use the lowest-end measurements possible - in this case one-hundred-twenty meters per second - as they're already in speculative territory provided certainly none of these numbers were in any of the creators' heads. Moreover, in your analysis of this feat you neglected to mention Afro only opened his eyes and moved after the sound of the gunshot was heard, heavily implying he was, in fact, reacting to the sound of it proving it was not a supersonic round.

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The show gives us nothing to suggest the bullet was supersonic, let alone the full three-hundred-seventy meters-per-second you mentioned; on the contrary, it heavily implies it was a subsonic round. At max, this feat would only be about equal to the generic bullet-timing you mentioned. In contrast, the muzzle velocity of modern day firearms like, say, that of the Micro UZI Molotov's gun, the one Hank successfully timed against despite last being seen all the way down the hall, so closely resembled is already unarguably supersonic.*

But you mostly covered this already, and admittedly these two separate feats alone aren't enough to top Molotov in the suit; as she was supersonic before donning a suit that put peak humans in that range of speed as well.

Hank is athletic, sure, especially in contrast to Dean, but by no stretch of the imagination is he a qualifiable peak human.

The expansion speed of a basic explosion is around 6,800 to 8,050 mps (Sources: 1,2,3) which is at least 19x faster than the speed of sound... Not only did Afro react to it (since it exploded point blank from his location) he moved swiftly enough not to get tagged by the blast radius, and he did so on a rickety bridge that was being eviscerated and shaking violently while he moved. That is a severely unbalanced platform as opposed to running on solid ground which would be much easier, and Afro was already injured at that point.

Outrunning an explosion would be in outlier territory in Afro's case. He has not a single other feat in that same range. You claim Afro, while wounded, can move over nineteen times faster than sound itself which is preposterous seeing as much slower weapons, like arrows, have given him trouble one more than one occasion. For instance, he was once stuck in his dominant arm by traditional arrows.

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If Afro was half as fast as you're already arguing he is, there is absolutely zero chance an arrow would ever be a threat to him, underwater or otherwise.

To my knowledge, Brock doesn't have a single speed feat to his name that can compete with double digit mach, and more so when you realize that Brock needs to rely on scaling to even be hypersonic (or just about) in the first place. On the other hand, ALL of Afro's feats are performed by himself, and each is abundantly clear without the slightest use of scaling or speculation. Contrary to that, Brock's entire fight Molotov wasn't even shown on-screen for us to judge in full. The only thing we really saw was him tagging her with a grappling gun, but she was in midair when that happened which is a truth that diminishes the weight of the feat dramatically. Then we cut to a different scene, before cutting back to see Brock punching her in the face. Yes the implications are there, but the contents of the fight are left to viewer's imagination.

In that case, it's probably a good thing I never said Brock was hypersonic and only used his fight with Molotov in the suit to show he could fight and defeat characters in Afro'a general speed-tier regardless of whether or not he's actually as fast as them. Brock accurately ensnared her with the grappling gun while atop a moving plane; if anything, her moving through the air makes it more impressive than if she was running in a straight line as she was before she leaped. Yes, the fight being off-screen diminished the feat but not so far as so far as irreverence; and about those implications, they were of a knife fight to be clear.

Moving forward, Afro's agility is equally astonishing. He's able to twist his body midair and dodge attacks he never even directly saw, and blitz through dozens of assassins dodging attacks and dishing out attacks of his own at the same time:

Brock is quite agile as well. As with speed, I'm not going to argue that it's to the literal same extent as Afro, but it isn't irrelevant either. Brock is so nimble as to use the moment of a car crash to flip himself through the air and and through the sunroof of a moving limo, and when Molotov slammed on the breaks sending him flying out the windshield, he moved clear of the now out of control car at the last possible instant.

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To reiterate: Brock's agility in addition to the Venture compound's laser defense system and his movement and combat speed is more than enough to prove he can keep up here.

Brute strength isn't Afro's most appealing attribute, but if you argue him as inferior to Brock in lifting/striking, I will rebut by proclaiming that it is irrelevant. Afro rarely brawls, as he is a master of swordplay. Notwithstanding the actuality that he has little to no strength feats, it should be duly noted that he is still impressive in that category in his own right. One of his earliest feats was effortlessly backhanding a thug (who was at least twice is weight) hard enough to send him flying several meters and through a stone wall:

Strength will absolutely come into play if Brock forces Afro into a blade lock, a tactic he used against Stars and Garters and his shield in the season six premier, but we'll get to that when we discuss skill. It's my belief the two are well-matched in strength, if not a slight edge to Brock. The feat you provided was no doubt impressive, but Brock has the feats to compare. I am referring to when he threw Otto Aquarius, a man much smaller than the one Afro hit, through the real solid stone wall of a dungeon so hard he connected with and decapitated a robot on the other side. I say "real solid stone" because the wall in Afro's feat was visibly not solid stone. I'm sure I don't need to explain to you why throwing a smaller man and achieving a greater, more devastating result makes it the superior showing, even when the two actions were different.

In the anime, he survived the explosion of a RPG while poisoned (after reacting to it and cutting it in half), which had enough force to dislodge the cliff they were standing on:

You neglect to mention Afro survived with the aid of others - it takes a large portion of the following episode for him to recover; in-universe, it was a matter of days. Brock, on the other hand, has feats good enough to blow this showing out of the water, even if Afro didn't need the outside help. One example would be when he took Think Tank's high-velocity cannon, an attack powerful enough to shake VenTech Tower all the way to its ground floor when fired from outside the penthouse window, directly to his chest at literal point-blank range.

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This is made more impressive by him having regained consciousness only a few seconds later then immediately continuing and winning the fight. Granted, Brock does have a metal plate in his chest the blast could have hit instead, but the cannon was larger than its surface area and it would still be vastly superhuman regardless to have survived it, let alone to brush it off as Brock did.

Conclusion

I don't have a lot of knowledge on Brock, but my opinion of the fight is that Afro is remarkably faster than Brock in all fronts of speed. You attempted to compensate for this fact by focusing on speed in your first post, however, Brock scaling to Molotov is depressingly inferior to Afro's explosion timing feat on the bridge. The speed difference is already mortifying, but in addition to that, I am convicted of the belief that Brock is susceptible to decapitation, as Brock has been pierced by bullets (in the instance of Monarch's henchmen) and bullets are something Afro has cut through and deflected with his blade. So Afro should have no qualms cutting through Brock.

It's not so much scaling from Molotov as it is the simple fact he defeated her. This speaks to skill which I'll likely address in my next post now that I've touched on all the stats. Of course, I am not and for that matter never was going to argue Brock would be too durable for Afro to cut, but you have to understand this works both ways - there is nothing preventing either character from swiftly decapitating their opponent outside of their own respective skill and endurance, and however many other factors that attribute to those two.

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#31 Posted by HigherPower (12181 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington: Question, does Brock time travel? I assume he has if he's killed Hitler, talked to David Bowie, and put Edgar Allen Poe in a headlock.

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#32 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan: He time-traveled when he put Edgar Allen Poe in a headlock, met two different David Bowies without it, and stabbed a clone of Hitler in present-day who happened to be in the body of a dog.

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#33 Edited by HigherPower (12181 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington: And so it begins...

Round 2

"Shut up"

Rebuttals

This might be the case if we were using the top velocity a bullet from a black powder musket can possibly achieve the instant it leaves the barrel, but calculating a feat doesn't really work like that; as it happens, when one is calculating a feat they plan on using in a debate that gave you no numbers to work with in-canon, they use the lowest-end measurements possible - in this case one-hundred-twenty meters per second - as they're already in speculative territory provided certainly none of these numbers were in any of the creators' heads. Moreover, in your analysis of this feat you neglected to mention Afro only opened his eyes and moved after the sound of the gunshot was heard, heavily implying he was, in fact, reacting to the sound of it proving it was not a supersonic round.

The show gives us nothing to suggest the bullet was supersonic, let alone the full three-hundred-seventy meters-per-second you mentioned; on the contrary, it heavily implies it was a subsonic round.

Now now Elijah... you've just made a critical mistake. Reading comprehension is one of, if not the single most important aspect of online debating and communication in general. Your misinterpretation of my words and implications has led you to counter an argument I never made, a fact that tarnishes the validity of your counter entirely; as it can be viewed as a variation of the Straw Man fallacy (in which someone inserts a non-existing argument their opponent never made and rebuts it to give off the illusion that they're winning). I never attempted to calculate the feat, nor said anywhere in my elaboration that the muzzle velocity of the musket Afro reacted to was supersonic. Not even once. The [only] statement that could even lead you to believe such a claim is the one in parentheses, in which I mentioned that powder muskets can travel up to 370 m/s, a statement that was simply given to preemptively disprove the common belief that all muskets are extremely slow, nineteenth century historical artifacts. There was zero attribution to that fact and Afro's feat, no matter how you look at it.

So long story short, you jumped the gun. Completely.

At max, this feat would only be about equal to the generic bullet-timing you mentioned. In contrast, the muzzle velocity of modern day firearms like, say, that of the Micro UZI Molotov's gun, the one Hank successfully timed against despite last being seen all the way down the hall, so closely resembled is already unarguably supersonic.*

While the the muzzle velocity of the musket may not be supersonic, I still confide in and support the statement that the feat itself Afro completed is dissimilar to "generic" bullet-timing. You conveniently ignored the three points I outlined when describing the feat, those points showing that he did more than simply time the bullet—which is the literal definition of generic bullet-timing. Unlike Hank who merely outpaced a bullet (by moving faster than it in a straight line) Afro cut his own projectile to shrapnel and computed the trajectory of the resulting pieces, guiding it in order to shred the bodies of several grown men behind him. It isn't the raw speed of the feat that I'm emphasizing, but rather the needed skill and precision to replicate it, and those are the two words I stressed in my first post when judging it. Though seemingly plain, the complexity of his actions makes it unique from generic linear movement like in the case of Hank, and that fact is irrefutable. Skill is also a big focus of this post as you will later see, so it is relevant as well.

Hank is athletic, sure, especially in contrast to Dean, but by no stretch of the imagination is he a qualifiable peak human.

The difference is completely negligible, as you [can not] quantifiably prove how much more of a boost the suit would have needed to give Hank if he was an athletic human as opposed to a peak one.

Outrunning an explosion would be in outlier territory in Afro's case. He has not a single other feat in that same range. You claim Afro, while wounded, can move over nineteen times faster than sound itself which is preposterous seeing as much slower weapons, like arrows, have given him trouble one more than one occasion. For instance, he was once stuck in his dominant arm by traditional arrows.

If Afro was half as fast as you're already arguing he is, there is absolutely zero chance an arrow would ever be a threat to him, underwater or otherwise.

The feat is definitely high end, and it's easily his fastest speed showing. But the intention of my presenting of the feat was not that Afro can move over nineteen times the speed of sound, but rather that he is hysterically faster than Brock. I can admit that Afro has no other speed feat as fast as that specific one (hence high-end), but he has several feats that land him in the hypersonic range and possibly approaching double digit mach. So let me ask you this-- at what point is a feat universally accepted to be an outlier the way we define it? Because the way I've come to perceive it, an outlier is when a character has a single feat so hilariously far above what they normally show that it can not be taken seriously or accepted for use in battles. Therefore recognizing outliers is a rather subjective procedure, as they depend on what we believe to be the standard or "norm" power showing of a character and the probability of them being able to replicate it.

Now, maybe if Afro were as slow as Brock, outrunning an explosion would be too high end and closer to an outlier than a consistent feat. But Afro is someone who's dodged/avoided fully-automatic machine gun fire while trapped in an elevator which virtually very little feet to move, as well as reacted to bullrushes from a machine who could ascend above the troposphere in seconds; while simultaneously dodging lasers and crossing blades with said machine despite it being explicitly stated to be faster than him:

If it was with these feats then Afro then gained a lightspeed showing (and I argued him being lightspeed) that you could without question call the feat an outlier. But currently double digit mach isn't a mile away from him; more like a hop skip and a jump. You should also consider the fact that explosion speeds vary and not all are as fast as was stated (which was C4) though most are hypersonic-- which is an operable range of speed for Afro. It should be duly noted that him getting tagged by arrows is a low-showing, as it is directly contradicted by his abundance of bullet-timing. Additionally, Afro was underneath a boat when he got hit, so his direct line of sight was obscured. Furthermore, there were at least over a hundred arrows fired simultaneously in all directions surrounding him, effectively making it an AOE attack; and that's not to mention being underwater obviously makes you slower...

In that case, it's probably a good thing I never said Brock was hypersonic and only used his fight with Molotov in the suit to show he could fight and defeat characters in Afro'a general speed-tier regardless of whether or not he's actually as fast as them. Brock accurately ensnared her with the grappling gun while atop a moving plane; if anything, her moving through the air makes it more impressive than if she was running in a straight line as she was before she leaped. Yes, the fight being off-screen diminished the feat but not so far as so far as irreverence; and about those implications, they were of a knife fight to be clear.

If you don't believe Brock to be hyper-sonic, you've pretty much sealed the deal on the entire speed argument. Fighting Molotov off-panel isn't comparable to the two aforementioned speed feats, and here's why. For starters, there is no proof that the suit Molotov wore boosted reaction speeds, as when it was on Hank the only aspect of speed we saw improved was his linear movement speed—increasing his movements to the point where he was fast enough to outpace a bullet while running in a straight line. So that means by on-screen evidence, Molotov's reactions stayed static from where they were before she had the suit on, which was simply maneuvering past bullets (a feat that is a dime a dozen to Afro). Consequently, the best you can argue Brock's combat speed for his implied actions of tagging her (knife fight or not) is faster than bullets or just supersonic; a speed that is not only casual for Afro, but slightly speculative for Brock because we never saw their fight in full. Tagging her with a grappling gun isn't even a speed feat for him, but rather his accuracy with a gun, a skill that is useless here as the only gun Brock has isn't loaded and Afro can easily dodge it's bullets even if it were.

Brock is quite agile as well. As with speed, I'm not going to argue that it's to the literal same extent as Afro, but it isn't irrelevant either. Brock is so nimble as to use the moment of a car crash to flip himself through the air and and through the sunroof of a moving limo, and when Molotov slammed on the breaks sending him flying out the windshield, he moved clear of the now out of control car at the last possible instant.

To reiterate: Brock's agility in addition to the Venture compound's laser defense system and his movement and combat speed is more than enough to prove he can keep up here.

Jumping through the sun roof of a car isn't impressive for agility; at least not when compared to someone who can fight while free-falling thousands of feet through the air (meaning no solid ground or footing or balance) while dodging a spam of lasers. Afro is also fast and agile enough the lasers on the Venture Compound (while fighting, as he's done) especially if they're not accurate enough to tag civilians.

Strength will absolutely come into play if Brock forces Afro into a blade lock, a tactic he used against Stars and Garters and his shield in the season six premier, but we'll get to that when we discuss skill. It's my belief the two are well-matched in strength, if not a slight edge to Brock. The feat you provided was no doubt impressive, but Brock has the feats to compare. I am referring to when he threw Otto Aquarius, a man much smaller than the one Afro hit, through the real solid stone wall of a dungeon so hard he connected with and decapitated a robot on the other side. I say "real solid stone" because the wall in Afro's feat was visibly not solid stone. I'm sure I don't need to explain to you why throwing a smaller man and achieving a greater, more devastating result makes it the superior showing, even when the two actions were different.

Although I can agree that feat is superior, your application of it's relevancy in this battle is that it will come into play if Brock and Afro get into a blade lock, a statement which I think undermines the use of the feat in it's entirety. The reason being that crossing blades with Afro means a swift death for Brock, and not just because the obvious reasons such as Afro's ōdachi sword being drastically longer than a Bowie knife, but because the sheer disparity in skill. I mean, the way Afro slices and dices human bodies with cartoonish violence is of the likes Brock has never encountered before.. like in the opening scene of Resurrection where he practically made a river run red from the blood of the souls he just wasted:

And of the likes you have to show Brock capable enough to deal with.

You neglect to mention Afro survived with the aid of others - it takes a large portion of the following episode for him to recover; in-universe, it was a matter of days.

There's really no proof Otsuru aided him with anything other than the deadly poison in his system. It was stated and shown that Otsuru found him next to the riverbed while Afro was unconscious, so the explosion of the RPG possibly knocked him out, but didn't kill him-- meaning he survived the explosion (which was my original statement, and one that proves it takes more to kill him) without the aid of others. Afro has a better durability feats anyway, so I'm sure the poison weakened him.

Brock, on the other hand, has feats good enough to blow this showing out of the water, even if Afro didn't need the outside help. One example would be when he took Think Tank's high-velocity cannon, an attack powerful enough to shake VenTech Tower all the way to its ground floor when fired from outside the penthouse window, directly to his chest at literal point-blank range.

This is made more impressive by him having regained consciousness only a few seconds later then immediately continuing and winning the fight. Granted, Brock does have a metal plate in his chest the blast could have hit instead, but the cannon was larger than its surface area and it would still be vastly superhuman regardless to have survived it, let alone to brush it off as Brock did.

Impressive, but Afro has a feat which in turn embarrasses that one, or as you say, blow out the water. He straight up no-sold being smashed through an entire multi-story building, causing numerous small and large explosions along the way:

While Brock gets knocked out by canons that only shake buildings, Afro is unfazed after being smashed through them, ravaging said building during the action...

In a contest of feats, Afro is the clear winner.

Of course, I am not and for that matter never was going to argue Brock would be too durable for Afro to cut, but you have to understand this works both ways - there is nothing preventing either character from swiftly decapitating their opponent outside of their own respective skill and endurance, and however many other factors that attribute to those two.

Now this is something we can agree on. The battle boils down to [mostly] skill and endurance, and before you even make the argument, I believe Brock to have better endurance. But the difference in skill is colossal, with Afro beating him by a disheartening gap (until you prove otherwise). And that is why he is going to win here, because he is faster than Brock by feats, can decapitate him with a single swing, and as I will now show, has overwhelming skill to top it all of.

The Skill to Kill.

Skill can be defined as the expertise one has in a certain field or operation. In combat, skill is usually deciding factor when all other aspects are evenly distributed between the opponents. Like I mentioned earlier, Afro's skill is in a tier of it's own, and I believe [with reason] that he is one of the most skilled swordsmen among all street level characters.

To kick things off, let's just establish the fact that Afro was raised in a dojo for most of his life, and he was trained by a sword master who also happened to be the owner of the Number Two headband, meaning at he was the second strongest person in the world at the time of acquisition which verifies the legitimacy of his skill. This reflects on Afro's training, as he was capable of moving FTE and decapitating grown men long before he even hit puberty:

It should be recognized that Afro stole the man's sword and cut him with it, before anyone could see
It should be recognized that Afro stole the man's sword and cut him with it, before anyone could see
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Moving further, I'd like you all to meet a very special someone.. Afro Droid:

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A descriptive rundown of the bot:

"Afro Droid (アフロドロイド, Afuro Doroido) is a semi-sentient robot copy of Afro created by the Empty Seven Clan (specifically their personal scientist, Dharman). It was created from combat data siphoned from Afro's mind by Okiku, and is able to reproduce all of his learned techniques and abilities. It is physically superior to Afro, and its external appearance is identical. The Afro Droid is equipped with a variety of weapons including a cannon, missiles, forehead mounted laser, rocket propelled detachable arms and a very large laser cannon in his chest. He also possesses several visual filters including night and infrared..."

Afro Samurai wikia

And here is the explanation from the Empty Seven Clan's leader, Brother 1:

The main takeaways from the video and the quote is that the droid not only possesses 20% greater physical strength then Afro (and later in the episode, it was stated to have superior speed as well), but also has his memories downloaded, enabling him with all of Afro's skills and his move-set. Yet, Afro defeated him. Here is there entire fight:

After recalling advice from his master, Afro became virtually untouchable, and wasn't tagged by the bot despite it being faster and stronger than him and having the same skills. You may think that's impossible, but it's quite logical seeing as he did it by becoming unpredictable; all his movements coming from his subconscious mind.

The best part is that Afro isn't capable of beating just one bot, but in the manga, he steamrolled through dozens...

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And that was after Afro defeated model 3, the data from that fight used to enhance the remaining ones.

The full battle:

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As you can see, not only did he instantly memorize their attack patterns, he was effectively blitzing and one-shotting several at a time, through nothing but pure, unpredictable skill. Some probably don't understand the depth of this feat so let me expand further.

Afro can literally defeat someone who's 20% stronger than him, physically faster than him, and can perfectly replicate every single technique and ability he's ever mastered... and he can defeat armies of them. So even if Brock was faster than Afro, which by feats he isn't, he would be virtually incapable of tagging him like the Droid in the anime. And even if he's physically stronger than Afro, and has skill accolades like being raised in a dojo by 2nd strongest swordsman in the world, and had an actual sword rather than a knife, Afro could still defeat dozens of Brocks... actually, blitz and slice through that many copies of him. And by feats, Brock doesn't have nearly as many advantages as I've given him, but even if he were superior in all physical categories and had Afro's level of skill, Afro would still stomp an army of him.

Checkmate.

Conclusion

Afro has everything needed to win this fight. He may not be stronger, but he's already defeated an army of people with a 20% strength advantage. He is faster, and even if he wasn't, Brock can never tag him, because Afro Droid was essentially his reflection but faster, and he missed every swing after Afro had recollected himself. I also believe Afro to be capable of slicing through Brock fairly easily, and with his speed and skill, accomplishing that should be as easy as breathing for him.

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#34 Posted by Marc_55 (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V, I love me some Venture Bros.