CaV: 616 Black Panther (Blackspidey2099) vs MCU Quake (ANTHP2000)

@blackspidey2099 up

CaV Rules:

• This is a "Challenge a Viner" debate, only BS and I are allowed to debate
• If you want to vote at the end of the debate, say "T4V"
• Vote either for who you think was the better debater, or the side that convinced you more, not based on which character you think would win
• Whatever the case, make sure to be civil about it, there's no reason to get upset over fiction

Battle Rules:

• Current Versions at Full Health
• Morals On / IC
• Quake has her gauntlets, T'Challa is unarmed
• The 2 sides have basic knowledge on each other
• Battle takes place on Earth-19999's Retreat, starting distance 75 ft.

When the King of Wakanda (616) takes on SHIELD's most powerful weapon (19999), who will come out on top?

Bait

Also is this Centipede Quake?

t4v.

Two good debaters. This is as legendary as TonyMartial vs tj849 could've been.

Uh t4v

Nice OP. You wanna go first or should I? @anthp2000

Whatever suits you. I probs won't be able to post till Tuesday though.

Alright fine, I'll try and work on the post and if I don't get it up by Tuesday you can go first. Sounds fair?

Yep

Bait

Never

No

@anthp2000: bump

lol

@anthp2000: bump

@anthp2000: bump

El bumpo

I'm not voting for obvious reasons.

Daisy Johnson, "Quake"

Biography

Daisy was born to Calvin L. Johnson, a doctor working in China, and Jiaying in 1988. She was soon taken away when her mother was seemingly killed by HYDRA. Growing up an orphan, she adopted the name Daisy and worked for the Rising Tide as their most accomplished hacker, putting her on SHIELD's radar. However, Phil Coulson recruited her into his team and appointed her as a consultant where she became a valued agent during the hunt for the Clairvoyant. After the fall of SHIELD, she joined the rest of her team in going off the grid. Working to stop HYDRA eventually led to Daisy being reunited with her father. She discovered the alien-based origin of her mother's lineage, and was exposed to the Terrigen Mist, granting her vibration manipulation abilities. The activation of her abilities alerted the attention of other Inhumans, and Daisy was taken to Afterlife to help her better understand her powers. She was eventually reunited with her mother, and later played a large role in the conflict between the reunified SHIELD and the Inhumans. For the next couple of years, she assissted into taking down Hive, Aida and the Darkhold until Coulson's team was taken into space, on a future timeline, to save humanity. As the team found a way back to the present, Johnson refused to return due to her fear to cause the apocalypse, only to be forced to return by Coulson. With him being missing after his capture by the new HYDRA leader, General Hale, Johnson assumed the role of S.H.I.E.L.D. leader in order to rescue him. Johnson saved Earth after she killed Glenn Talbot and later followed Mackenzie as SHIELD.'s new Director.

Equipment

• Quake Gauntlets: Daisy wears a pair of specialised gauntlets designed by Agents Fitz and Simmons originally purposing in controling absorbing the vibrations of her quakes, therefore preventing any physical damage to Daisy herself whenever she used her powers to a great degree. They've been further upgraded and currently even aid her precision when it comes to focusing a quake and projecting the force

Vibration Manipulation

Daisy's powers were granted to her via the process of Terrigenesis as SHIELD and the Inhumans called it. She can sense and manipulate the vibrations of organic and whatnot matter to various degrees and ways, granting her control over practically anything or anyone around her. She can focus the vibrations around her and force them into powerful blasts as well as control people without the need to project her powers.

After her powers were first discovered by Rodriguez' fraction of S.H.I.E.L.D., a tactical team led by Mockingbird was sent to secure her, and despite his orders, Agent Calderon shot a lethal bullet at her, forcing her to use her powers to deflect the shot and take them down. Above, she's seen deflecting the bullet after it's been fired. Now, that's not really bullet timing on her part - it's more aim block-ish - but the fact remains, her powers are been projected faster than a bullet can reach her, ergo her powers are even faster than glock's bullet, which is quite impressive.

Gallery

Afterwards, this same force unleashes an enormous blast that sends them both flying and destroys a decent part of the forest in the process, taking down the trees all over its path and even shattering some. For what it's worth, this is also the same forest next to the location this battle takes place in.

When Jaiying, her Inhuman mother capable of draining other humans' energy, killing them from the inside to make herself stronger, attempted to kill Daisy, she overcame the fatigue the draining had caused her, broke out of it and unleashed a massive quake so powerful it pushed an entire Quinjet several yards back and knocked it over into the ocean. Given how incredibly weak she was at the time, litteraly half dead, I consider this one of her more impressive showings of power.

While fighting Hive, Daisy went a good way out to put him down, and even though it was impossible, she still managed to quickly break his bones and weaken him for several seconds with a single focused blast, before he can regenerate all over again. Keep in mind that Hive is capable of effortlessly recovering from multiple bullet shots and a missile blast that disintegrated his shoulder, this all was far easier to take than Daisy's blast.

Finally, one mighty demonstration of Quake's potential raw power is seen when, under Hive's mind control, she leaves SHIELD's base, the Playground, and by quaking the ground, she effortlessly creates a massive earthquake that causes the entire base to collapse. The destructive capability and the radius of her attacks is impossibly powerful if she wants it to be.

Johnson's powers are clearly a lot more versatile and dangerous than just straight-up blasting opponens however, showing when she's going all out with no hesitation about taking somebody's life.

One of the more dangerous abilities her powers offer her is manipulating the vibration of the inside organs of others, effectively taking them down from the inside, vibrating their bodies and killing them in the process. Above, we see her using this technique on Raina, who was going to be killed had it not been for Jaiying intercepting the attempt. It's worth noting she can alter the time it takes for this technique to end someone, ranging from torture-like methods to instant annihilation.

Gallery

• Scan 1: She used this technique on a Vrellnexian, a superhuman alien force Coulson's team encountered in the future timeline. This is quite a decent showing, proving she can instantly vaporize a creature this tough with no real effort.
• Scan 2: She also used this on Gideon Malick, Head of HYDRA, while under Hive's mind control, killing him in the process. It's noteworthy that Malick had described the sensation of his death (before it occured), as all his body cells been destroyed at once.
• Scan 3: She uses it again on Jaiying, which is, again, impressive because she manages to fight through her life been drained and attempt to overpower her.

A similar use of this technique was shown wihle Daisy was training to control her powers and learn more about her potential. Standing on a hill in "Afterlife", she sensed the vibrations inside a nearby mountain and caused a lrge avalanche from severals hundreds of yards away, without actually projecting a quake.

Gallery

Another technique Daisy uses involves using force field-like quakes to either restrain her targets or ragdoll them into submission. This can be useful, esspecially in a location with a water source or a bunch of hard surfaces nearby like this one.

• Scan 1: She pushes a grown man, hitting him on a wall and knocking him out.
• Scan 2: She manages to gain control of and contain a small amount of gravitonium, a liquid substance, incredibly unstable, that, unless secured in esspecially designed containers, can randomly maneuver around their general location with extreme speed and force and absorb humans.

Lastly, Daisy can use her powers to proper herself at will and cover extreme distances in little time. Above, she was after a Sniper located on top of a multi-story building and she propelled herself to pinpoint his position and land on top of him in no more than the span of a single second. This technique can also be utilised for evasion.

Physicality (Speed, Reflex, Durability)

Daisy is quite the advanced physical specimen, capable of achieving physical feats outside of a normal human's capabilities. She's a peak human by LA standards, and while that's not quite the same when she's compared to CB's peak humans, let alone a superhuman like T'Challa, her showings should still suffice to say she can take a punch here and keep up with your character using her powers. She's also a highily skilled martial artist, but I won't get into that as T'Challa is tiers ahead of her for obvious reasons.

Gallery

Daisy's reaction speed is quite impressive, she can consistently react to projectiles a lot faster than your average conventional arrow.

• Scan 1: In the beginning of her fight with Sinara, an elite Kree warrior from the future, she times and dodges her metal telekinetic orbs while distracted, essentially evading with her back turned. Sinara's orbs are incredibly fast, they're metalic spheres that, as shown above, can even cause sparks by hitting the walls around Kassius' Arena through sheer force. They move so fast that they can penetrate the skin and body of peak humans (metahumans to be fair), and kill them on the spot. In order for a round metalic object to do this, it obviously has to be quite fast.
• Scan 2: Daisy is capable of timing RPGs, blasting one away after it's been fired in a quite casual manner. Keep in mind that most grenade launchers project at speed ranging from arrow sppeds to twice+ as fast as those.

After Gideon Malick put on the Exo-Sceleton, his strength was enhansed at quite the insane levels, he was capable of disconnecting a large desk off its hinges on the floor and hurling it as well as crushing a grown man's skull. Daisy took this force into several focused hits (I'm counting at least 6) in the face, after he surprises her and hits her from behind. After this beating, she's still capable of using her powers effectively.

Gallery

In her final fight with Graviton, Daisy showed immense physical prowess even before injecting herself with the Centipede Serum.

• Scan 1: Daisy propells herself and bullrushes Graviton at high speeds, enough that she causes colateral damage and punches his body into concrete. While that is not a valid strength showing due to the clear aid of monmentum, her rushing on his body so hard at these speeds and not even been fased is a noteworthy enough showing.
• Scans 2 & 3: An infamous moment of their battle is when Graviton grabs her and flies her up over the height of the Chicago Skyline to drive her down into the ground and crush her. Daisy, as confirmed by the writers, obviously uses her powers to soften the landing, so the degree of impressiveness of this feat is questionable. Given the raw height however, and the fact that she was still conscious afterwards, it's still a massively impressive showing no matter what on my book. I'd argue this alone is enough to suggest she can take a hit from T'Challa.

The Fight

This is basically going to be a debate of wether or not a character can tag the other - those are their own kind of fun. Daisy, knowing her opponent is a highily enhansed individual won't hold back and go hand to hand from the get-go. If T'Challa manages to dodge the initial blasts and close in, she's going to know what is up the moment he inevitably lands the first hit. I don't think he can take her out with 1 hit, so this should be sufficient for her to realise she needs to put him down and use her more high end raw power to do so, winning the matchup. My opponent's going to have to prove T'Challa can dodge bullet speed+ projectiles of varying scale and radius and finish her off before it's too late, because one well placed blast is enough to end it - overall, I don't see that happening, and Daisy's reactions, while obviously not on level with the Panther, should be enough to compliment her powers well here.

@blackspidey2099: apologies for the delay! Ball's on your court.

Nothing is obvious Supreme.

@anthp2000: Yeah... no, it’s still obvious to me.

@supremegeneration: Fine.

No one's gonna read that Bio.

Also this whole CaV is bait.

@anthp2000: great opener!

Black Panther: King of Wakanda

Heir to the Throne: Bio

T'Challa, the Black Panther, was the son of T'Chaka, King of Wakanda. However, after T'Chaka was killed, T'Challa had to take over the mantle from his father, using the heart shaped herb to link him to Bast, the Panther God. The herb also enhanced him to become nearly superhuman. In his quest to protect Wakanda, he soon came into conflict with Western heroes such as the Avengers and Fantastic Four, before developing a friendly relationship with them, even building the Avengers' Quinjets. After his sister took over the kingdom of Wakanda, T'Challa went to commune with Bast who made him into her Black Panther and gave him the title of King of the Dead - giving Black Panther the knowledge of all Black Panthers before him - until his father's spirit disowned him for not being able to destroy an entire planet, even to protect Wakanda. Now, T'Challa has taken back leadership of Wakanda, but as a democratic leader rather than King. Despite having a new political role, the Black Panther remains committed to fighting for Wakanda's interests - as well as the betterment of the rest of the world!

The Panther's Bite: Strength & Striking

After being enhanced by both the heart shaped heart and later getting a further boost by becoming the King of the Dead, T'Challa possesses extremely impressive strength and striking power.

1: T'Challa easily breaks a stone/metal bar with a backhand (Black Panther Vol. 3 #25).

2: While weakened, T'Challa throws a spear straight through a stone wall (Jungle Action Vol. 2 #8).

3 - 5: T'Challa keeps an angry, 20 foot long, crocodile's jaws open for 3 pages, before escaping (Jungle Action Vol. 2 #10). For reference, scientists have done measurements of bite force in crocodiles, and scaled it up to a 20 foot crocodile, estimating:

"We tested several 17-foot [5-meter] saltwater crocs," he said. "If you scale the results up to 20-footers, you get estimates of 7,700 pounds [34,250 newtons], which is the low end of T. rex bite-force estimates.

National Geographic

6: T'Challa rips open a plane's cargo hatch while it is submerged in water (Black Panther Vol. 3 #14).

7 - 8: While tied up, T'Challa snaps metal chains and completely destroys the wooden waterwheel he was chained to (Jungle Action Vol. 2 #24).

9 - 10: T'Challa lifts up a slab of concrete that looks significantly larger than he is to save a child (Black Panther: The Sound and the Fury #1).

Gallery

I'll leave it at that for now, since I think that is enough to show that T'Challa can take out Daisy in just a couple hits, contrary to what you earlier suggested in your post.

The Panther's Shadow: Speed & Reflexes:

Another one of T'Challa's enhanced attributes is his speed. T'Challa does have a couple bullet-timing feats, as well as a number of instances in which he has kept up with, if not outshone, some of Marvel's quickest street levelers.

1: T'Challa dodges sniper bullets (while unenhanced) (Black Panther: The Man Without Fear #513).

2: T'Challa casually dodges a bullet after it is fired, proving that he is a bullet timer (Avengers #87).

3 - 4: T'Challa dodges fire from Wakandan Special Forces agents wielding assault rifles (Black Panther Vol. 3 #4).

5: T'Challa astonishes Wolverine (a solidly FTE fighter) with his speed in combat (Black Panther Vol. 4 #8).

6: T'Challa's speed surprises Captain America (a pretty consistent bullet timer) in combat (Tales of Suspense #98).

Gallery

Daisy is very impressive speed-wise for an LA combatant, so I won't go so far as to say T'Challa will be FTE to her - but I am confident you will agree that he won't have any issue blitzing Daisy in close combat or dodging her attacks from afar based on these feats.

Heart of the Panther: Stamina & Durability

Despite not having access to his regular vibranium suit in this battle, T'Challa still has extremely impressive durability, so it will be difficult for Daisy to hurt him significantly in CQC.

1: T'Challa survives a fall from a flying nuclear warhead (Black Panther Vol. 2 #3).

2 - 3: T'Challa is barely harmed after being lunged at and then cut by Killmonger's pet leopard (Jungle Action #6).

4: Right after that, T'Challa survives being thrown down a waterfall by Killmonger (Jungle Action #7).

5: T'Challa fights Killmonger, who can one-shot an elephant, for over 13 hours (Black Panther Vol. 3 #20).

Gallery

Sure, Daisy's best damage output feats for her quakes would allow her to do some serious damage (if not outright one-shot him) - but, well, I have some issues with those that I'll be bringing up later on in this post. :)

The Panther's Prowess: Combat Skill

T'Challa is easily one of the absolute best combatants, in terms of sheer skill, in the Marvel Universe.

1: T'Challa has studied every fighting style in the world (AvX: VS #5).

2: T'Challa is a master of all forms of hand-to-hand combat (Avengers: The Ultimate Guide).

3: T'Challa has been trained as a warrior since childhood (Black Panther Vol. 4 #2).

4: T'Challa humiliates Karnak, an Inhuman combatant who uses his ability to sense the weakness in anything to his advantage in combat, in a fight (Black Panther Vol. 4 #20).

5: T'Challa is accomplished with nerve strikes, secretly employing several of them in a prolonged battle with the White Wolf, the leader of the Hatut Zeraze (Wakandan Secret Police), until he collapsed (Black Panther Vol. 3 #12). This also shows just how much of an expert he is with nerve strikes, being able to control their effect and intensity so White Wolf only fell asleep, and also creating a delay.

6: T'Challa knows all 32 pressure points in the human body, as well all the pressure points in a Skrull's body (Black Panther Vol. 4 #40).

7: T'Challa renders his enemy unconscious with a single nerve strike (West Coast Avengers Annual #3).

8: T'Challa can even use nerve strikes which work on Luke Cage, despite his durability and impenetrable skin granting him some resistance to nerve attacks (Black Panther: Man Without Fear #517).

Gallery

Admittedly, Daisy is one of the better-skilled LA combatants, but the difference between comics and LA in skill is so large that I don't even think this is an area we need to debate at all. T'Challa is hilariously more skilled, as I think you'd agree.

The Panther's Claws: Quick Counters

Instead of countering any specific feats you posted for Daisy, I'm going to focus on countering your mini fight breakdown, which I'll quote here for clarity.

This is basically going to be a debate of whether or not a character can tag the other - those are their own kind of fun. Daisy, knowing her opponent is a highly enhanced individual won't hold back and go hand to hand from the get-go. If T'Challa manages to dodge the initial blasts and close in, she's going to know what is up the moment he inevitably lands the first hit. I don't think he can take her out with 1 hit, so this should be sufficient for her to realize she needs to put him down and use her more high end raw power to do so, winning the matchup. My opponent's going to have to prove T'Challa can dodge bullet speed+ projectiles of varying scale and radius and finish her off before it's too late, because one well placed blast is enough to end it - overall, I don't see that happening, and Daisy's reactions, while obviously not on level with the Panther, should be enough to compliment her powers well here.

To put it simply, I don't think this is how this battle will play out. There are three main assumptions you've made here which I simply don't agree with. I'm going to list and counter them in order, starting with:

1. Daisy starting the battle by blasting T'Challa from afar to take him down

To put it simply, she never does this. Her go-to move in pretty much every fight is to open with ranged attacks, and then engage in CQC right after - with no regard to how (in)effective those ranged attacks were. Let's look at some examples, shall we?One of the first examples of Daisy using this tactic in a fight against a physically superior opponent is her battle against LMD Mace (Agents of SHIELD 4x15), who clearly showed far superior durability/strength to Daisy. Despite her stats disadvantage, she just took some shots at him from afar (with a shotgun no less, not even her own powers) before immediately engaging in close combat - instead of using her abilities intelligently and keeping Mace at bay with her powers.

But that's far from being the only instance in which Daisy has showcased her lack of strategic thinking mid-battle. Let's look at her battle against the Kree warrior, Sinara, in Agents of SHIELD 5x06 for another example of this:

Daisy starts off with a weak quake blast - just enough to knock Sinara off her feet but not do any damage. Instead of pressing the initial advantage her powers created for her and finishing the fight from afar, she mindlessly charges into melee range and enters CQC with a physically superior Kree warrior.

The final example of this which I'll show for now is from Daisy's fight against Robbie Reyes in Agents of SHIELD 4x01 - once again, she starts with a quake blast, which he just shrugs off (not using this as an anti-feat for her quake power - it was weakened due to her hands being hurt by not using her gauntlets). Despite seeing how physically impressive he is firsthand, she still decides to foolishly engage him in CQC.

Clearly, this is something of a pattern for Daisy - something which is bound to be repeated in this battle as well. Even if she did tag T'Challa with a blast from afar (which I highly doubt), charging into melee range to finish him off would be a mistake of tremendous proportions which would result in her quick and immediate defeat. Unfortunately for you, that's exactly what an in-character Daisy would likely do.

2. T'Challa not being able to put Daisy down in the time it takes for her to realize she needs to use her "high end raw power"

The only solid durability feat you posted for Daisy was her being able to take 6 or so hits from Malick in his exoskeleton (Agents of SHIELD 3x15), which you scaled to Malick being able to crush skulls and throw tables - putting him at around 1 ton levels of strength at best. I've shown feats for T'Challa which put him at several times that level. When you take into consideration that Malick clearly wasn't using his full strength against Daisy in that gif you posted, and was actually toying with her, that feat becomes even less impressive.

This gif clearly shows that once he's done toying with Daisy, he amps up the power on his exoskeleton in preparation to finish her off (before being stopped by the homeless Inhuman guy whose name I forgot). As such, I don't think scaling Daisy's durability to tanking 6 of Malick's best punches is valid.

Furthermore, I also disagree with your use of the feats from the Graviton fight - because, quite frankly, I find them to be huge outliers. I can maybe accept Daisy being able to withstand the force it takes to punch through asphalt (not concrete), but the falling feat is an undeniable outlier and you know it. I can probably bring up like 5 feats of Daisy being hurt by regular, non-enhanced, people for each of these near superhuman feats - if you want me to. Even if we take the asphalt feat as consistent, asphalt is nowhere near as tough as the metals/rocks which T'Challa has no issue breaking through, so I don't think it stops her from being vulnerable to T'Challa one or two shotting her. If need be, I'll bring up some more impressive striking showings for T'Challa in my next post, but I believe this should be sufficient for now.

3. Daisy using some sort of crazy powerful blasts to take T'Challa down (once they've already engaged in CQC) after already being hit

So even if Daisy does survive long enough against T'Challa in CQC to decide to use her full power against him, there's another issue - she's simply not that good at using her powers up close. This can be perfectly exemplified in Daisy's fight against Ruby, as shown in Agents of SHIELD 5x17:

Daisy tries to surprise Ruby with a quake blast, but Ruby has no issues whatsoever dodging her blast and closing the gap before Daisy can tag her with quakes. Even later on in the fight, when the two are battling in melee range, Ruby uses her speed and skill to great effect in blocking Daisy from using her powers.

Considering T'Challa is miles more skilled and faster than Ruby is, it should be no issue at all for him to do the same. Furthermore, another fact I'd like to point out is that Daisy's quakes are weaker when she herself is weakened. Sure, this might seem like a rather elementary conclusion, but it's quite important since it means that she won't be able to output her full power after being battered by a couple of T'Challa's strikes. A good example of this is from that fight you mentioned against Malick, from Agents of SHIELD 3x15:

She has absolutely no reason to hold back against Malick, but due to her injuries, can only manage to output a blast that throws him a few feet and does no permanent damage to an old, unfit guy. An attack like that would be child's play for T'Challa to laugh off, so unless you can convince me that she can tank at least a couple of T'Challa's best hits, I think that by the time T'Challa and her engage in melee combat, it's already too late for her to win.

The Panther's Hunt: Fight Breakdown

As you can probably tell based on everything I've mentioned above, I do think T'Challa can win this fight without too much trouble. I don't believe Daisy can tag him from afar at all, and even if she did, she wouldn't use blasts strong enough to really do any lasting damage to him. Both T'Challa and Daisy will try to engage each other in melee combat (T'Challa because he has no other choice, Daisy because it's what she always does), where T'Challa should be able to take her out in just a couple of hits. Even if she does realize she needs to get serious before she gets knocked out, it will be too late, since by that time she'd be too injured to really output any great amount of force in her quakes. There's also the fact that T'Challa is more than skilled and quick enough to stop her from using her quakes mid-battle, like Ruby did during their fight. Finally, T'Challa proceeds to knock her out, if he hadn't already.

There's not much else to say here. I look forward to your next post, and to see how you proceed to refute some of the arguments i've put forth already. Good luck @anthp2000!

@anthp2000 my post is up! Sorry for the wait...

Bait.

@blackspidey2099: Aye my man, wonderful post. I'll get to this ASAP.

Tag

Nice, solid post overall.

bump