Cassandra cain vs X-23

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King-Ragnar

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@brucerogers:

And again Taskmaster =/= Cassandra Cain. Not sure why you are under this impression that Cass can do anything Tasky can do.

What's funny is that she recently got stomped by a person who more or less has the same ability as Tony.

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brucerogers

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@king-ragnar: Yup.

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Outside_85

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@outside_85: No sir, your comments show you don't know what Laura is capable of at all. Breaking legs or whatever is not so easy when she is fast enough to go toe to toe with Wolverine, possess claws that can cut through Titanium like hot butter and the skill and viciousness to go with it. Then there is the healing....

And again Taskmaster =/= Cassandra Cain. Not sure why you are under this impression that Cass can do anything Tasky can do.

What Laura is capable of cutting through matters the square root of jack against someone she has no hope of ever hitting. Serious are you a member of the Wolverine fan club that goes around headbutting walls in the idea that you too can do that without any lasting damage?

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Warlockmage

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brucerogers

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Warlockmage

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@outside_85: um...what?

he basically asked if you had brain damage... which is hilariously ironic

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brucerogers

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Outside_85

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@brucerogers said:

@outside_85: um...what?

he basically asked if you had brain damage... which is hilariously ironic

Don't worry mate, you are also in line for a lobotomy with nothing to loose.

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Warlockmage

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Ambaryerno

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#60  Edited By Ambaryerno

Serious are you a member of the Wolverine fan club that goes around headbutting walls in the idea that you too can do that without any lasting damage?

Pot and kettle. The only thing more insufferable than the Bat Family itself is the Bat Family FANS. They may ACTUALLY be worse than Storm Fans.

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Outside_85

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Serious are you a member of the Wolverine fan club that goes around headbutting walls in the idea that you too can do that without any lasting damage?

Pot and kettle. The only thing more insufferable than the Bat Family itself is the Bat Family FANS. They may ACTUALLY be worse than Storm Fans.

Why? Because in this case the Bat wins?

Get this, Cassandra is at the pinnacle of martial artists within DC. She has an ability to see what people are about to simply by reading micro-movements, the only people she has difficult with are people like Deathstroke who doesn't have these little tells. I brought up Taskmaster earlier because he is kinda like that as well, and because the last we saw of him, he could handle Laura without much difficulty before he got blindsided by the footclaw.
X-23 on the other hand is not even in the top 10 of Marvel's MA's, her primary ability is to regenerate damage, ignore pain and stab people to death. None of those things make her immune to what Cassandra can do, and because she doesn't have Logan's skeleton, she is going to be leaving the fight with a lot of broken bones she needs to mend. And as I said before, Laura might be great at ignoring damage done to her... but that doesn't mean a broken arm or leg keeps working like normal. Like here is a great example of how good Laura is with a broken neck:

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deactivated-5b6e1b2130fed

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@krleavenger: Heh, fair enough. Although, you say it's either a kill or a paralyzation nerve strike, and then you say it's instant paralyzation. Why do you think so? I'm not entirely sure how to interpret what Logan said, but "Too late. I realize which of them he's going for. " might have been referring to a killing nerve strike instead.

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@brucerogers I might concede the nerve strike argument based on what Shingen used, but there are still a few things I want to address.

They didnt specify what kind of nerve strikes she was using but she wanted to stop him from attacking her - so I suppose the KOing kind. I fail to see what difference it makes either way. A nerve strike is a nerve strike and he healed from it.

I guess that now depends on who has better nerve strikes (Cass or Daredevil) but it does make a difference. For paralyzation, it works through the fact that the brain can neither send nor receive signals to an area of the body. Apparently there's a pressure point that targets the Carotid Artery. That KOs or even kills due to a sudden, precipitous drop in blood pressure in the brain. Etc. Pressure points don't work just one way.

one shot class 30-40 bricks - all with a simple touch. I have never seen Cass do something that impressive.

This is the only one I care to address given how Wolverine took the KOing type of nerve strikes, but Cassie has feats on par with and better than that. Such as one-shotting a house sized monster or even managing to hurt the Bizarro version of Linda Danvers Supergirl (she isn't nearly as powerful as Kara but she can still do stuff like stabilize a cruise ship, and other such mid tier feats).

Durability has nothing to do with being resistant to nerve strikes, unless you are durable to the point where your skin won't even deform enough, or at all, for the strikes to hit the nerves. And again, I am not arguing that Cass cant affect her nerves. She can. But it wont do her much good thanks to the HF.

I'm not sure writers think like that/how it works in comics, I don't think that means Thor gets pressure pointed cause it all works the same way GG no re (I know that's not what you're saying, but that's what the argument implies), especially given how I've seen characters like Hulk resist them seemingly just because they're too durable, but whatever.

And you are splitting hairs with your last paragraph. His healing factor doesnt discriminate between nerves. They work the same for all of them - whether you try to affect his arm or his lungs. Instead you could show me feats of Cass affecting anyone with even a halfway decent HF...

That's not how it works, as I've explained earlier, nerve strikes work by different ways. You can't just argue he can heal from every type of nerve strike when they affect you in vastly different ways, and have nothing to do with each other. That's an NLF. So yeah, those types of pressure points should take him out.

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KrleAvenger

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@lanternbatman:

Although, you say it's either a kill or a paralyzation nerve strike, and then you say it's instant paralyzation. Why do you think so?

I'm sorry, I meant "kill or instant paralyzation". I just didn't use the word "instant" the first time I said "paralyzation".

I'm not entirely sure how to interpret what Logan said, but "Too late. I realize which of them he's going for. " might have been referring to a killing nerve strike instead.

Yeah, it is a bit difficult to wrap your head around what he was trying to say. However, Shingen stroke him four times. Maybe some were there to paralyze him and some were meant to kill him. And it is possible Logan also meant Shingen was relying on nerve strikes meant to paralyze him instead of killing him. We don't know about a type of nerve strikes Logan realized Shingen was using on him.

It could be either one of those, or maybe he wasn't even talking about the ones he already used but the one he was about to use, hence Logan surprising him later. We don't really know. But given the fact that Logan said he could either kill him or paralyze him, with Shingen striking him four times over the course of one page, it's not too far fetched to say he relied on both types, which are not that far different anyway.

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deactivated-5b6e1b2130fed

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@krleavenger: I disagree. I think he was only using one of those. Think about it like this: if you're going to use nerve strikes to kill someone, why try to paralyze them next? I mean you used nerve strikes to kill, so the job is done, the effect of the nerve strike will kill Logan (at least, that's what Shingen thought, but it didn't work) so then what possible reason is there to paralyze him? There isn't any.

If you're using a nerve strike to paralyze and then kill, that doesn't really work. Why not just kill Logan at the beginning instead of using a paralyzing nerve strike? That doesn't make sense either. I think Shingen relied exclusively on one type (the reason for striking several times being that those specific nerve strikes need multiple strikes to work, at least that's the only logical conclusion I can get. If Shingen used both types, then he used two strikes for each, given that he used 4 strikes. However, using both types doesn't make sense, so it seems those 4 strikes were meant for a nerve strike that takes multiple strikes to work, as I said earlier).

Which type is up to interpretation, but I think it's the killing type. Wolverine states Mariko thought those attacks were meant to humiliate them. A paralyzing nerve strike would have humiliated him. Given Logan's wording, wouldn't it be a killing nerve strike, and not just one meant to humiliate?

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KrleAvenger

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@lanternbatman:

the effect of the nerve strike will kill Logan (at least, that's what Shingen thought, but it didn't work) so then what possible reason is there to paralyze him? There isn't any.

Or maybe he realized he can't paralyze Logan so instead he decided to go for the killing ones. Logan said he used nerve cluster blows after first two strikes, but before the other two. Maybe he decided not to kill him right away, but paralyze him first, because why would you even kill a guy when you can incap him? Shingen may be arrogant but he's not violent for no reason. One could argue that the only reason why a fighter as knowledgeable and as skilled as Logan couldn't realize what kind of nerve strikes Shingen used right away is just because he used different types of strikes.

I mean, you yourself said that killing nerve strikes are not the same as paralyzation nerve strikes, implying that tanking nerve strikes that are meant to kill you does not mean you can tank nerve strikes that are meant to paralyze you. Shingen knows Logan is a mutant so maybe he shares your thoughts about nerve strikes and thought about using paralyzation strikes, which maybe could work if killing ones can't. Because you are kinda contradicting yourself with this by saying it does not make sense.

A paralyzing nerve strike would have humiliated him. Given Logan's wording, wouldn't it be a killing nerve strike, and not just one meant to humiliate?

You are misunderstanding Logan's words and Mariko's thoughts. It's not about type of nerve strikes. The thing is that Shingen shouldn't have used nerve strikes in the first place. Mariko though he didn't use them, because he shouldn't. He thought those precise strikes where there just for Shingen to humiliate Logan, in sense that he just strikes him because he can. Like trolling him. She didn't realize those strikes had purpose, not what purpose they had. Paralyzing him is the win, not humiliation.

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morpheus_

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#66 morpheus_  Moderator

Why are nerve strikes from an era where Wolverine's powers were much less potent being discussed? Hell, why is Wolverine discussed? Ben Reilly is Spider-Man's clone but their feats differ, Laura is not exempt from that.

N52 Cassandra dies in hilarious fashion. Pre-FP Cass is the real deal, but I don't know if she can keep Laura down despite the massive skill gap.

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Ambaryerno

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@ambaryerno said:

Serious are you a member of the Wolverine fan club that goes around headbutting walls in the idea that you too can do that without any lasting damage?

Pot and kettle. The only thing more insufferable than the Bat Family itself is the Bat Family FANS. They may ACTUALLY be worse than Storm Fans.

Why? Because in this case the Bat wins?

Get this, Cassandra is at the pinnacle of martial artists within DC. She has an ability to see what people are about to simply by reading micro-movements, the only people she has difficult with are people like Deathstroke who doesn't have these little tells. I brought up Taskmaster earlier because he is kinda like that as well, and because the last we saw of him, he could handle Laura without much difficulty before he got blindsided by the footclaw.

X-23 on the other hand is not even in the top 10 of Marvel's MA's, her primary ability is to regenerate damage, ignore pain and stab people to death. None of those things make her immune to what Cassandra can do, and because she doesn't have Logan's skeleton, she is going to be leaving the fight with a lot of broken bones she needs to mend. And as I said before, Laura might be great at ignoring damage done to her... but that doesn't mean a broken arm or leg keeps working like normal. Like here is a great example of how good Laura is with a broken neck:

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Nice job cutting out, like, the VERY NEXT PAGE where Laura snatches that crossbow bolt out of the air (from her BACK, no less) as it's fired.

Laura's use of her claws is a part of her fighting style, and she habitually keeps her foot claws stowed precisely to keep her opponents off-guard. It's no different than a fighter who would throw a series of right jabs as a setup for a surprise left hook. In this case Laura holds back the foot claw until the most opportune moment.

And to reiterate: WHAT IS THE SCALE? We don't know how Marvel's top martial artists compare against DC's top martial artists. The only thing we have to go on is the odd crossover, and as I already pointed out (Logan vs. Lobo) these are unreliable AT BEST.

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Outside_85

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Nice job cutting out, like, the VERY NEXT PAGE where Laura snatches that crossbow bolt out of the air (from her BACK, no less) as it's fired.

Laura's use of her claws is a part of her fighting style, and she habitually keeps her foot claws stowed precisely to keep her opponents off-guard. It's no different than a fighter who would throw a series of right jabs as a setup for a surprise left hook. In this case Laura holds back the foot claw until the most opportune moment.

And to reiterate: WHAT IS THE SCALE? We don't know how Marvel's top martial artists compare against DC's top martial artists. The only thing we have to go on is the odd crossover, and as I already pointed out (Logan vs. Lobo) these are unreliable AT BEST.

Which is not the point. The point is Kimura broke Laura's neck and dragged her around like a limp bag afterwards, ofc it was going to grow back together, but she was incapacitated till then.

Yes, she does, but since ejecting the claws requires her muscles to move, Cass can actually see them being deployed before they are out. Not to mention Laura still has to kick to bring the claw to bear so it just becomes a question of blocking the kick.

We should, since we know who they are. Marvel has pegged Iron Fist as the greatest MA they have, while DC tends to shift a bit between Cassandra and Lady Shiva. Danny has mystic Kung-Fu, Cassandra can body read.

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brucerogers

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@lanternbatman: Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that Logan's/Laura's HF would work at the same rate for all injuries. Obviously its going to vary depending on the intensity of the attack and the wound. But they still heal regardless. That said, a pinched nerve is still a pinched nerve so there is no real difference in intensity there. Nothing is going to keep her down for long.

And I didnt see Cass use any nerve strikes on Bizarro Supergirl. She hurt her by jumping on her stomach, which feels like an iffy feat by itself.

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Nice job cutting out, like, the VERY NEXT PAGE where Laura snatches that crossbow bolt out of the air (from her BACK, no less) as it's fired.

Laura's use of her claws is a part of her fighting style, and she habitually keeps her foot claws stowed precisely to keep her opponents off-guard. It's no different than a fighter who would throw a series of right jabs as a setup for a surprise left hook. In this case Laura holds back the foot claw until the most opportune moment.

And to reiterate: WHAT IS THE SCALE? We don't know how Marvel's top martial artists compare against DC's top martial artists. The only thing we have to go on is the odd crossover, and as I already pointed out (Logan vs. Lobo) these are unreliable AT BEST.

Which is not the point. The point is Kimura broke Laura's neck and dragged her around like a limp bag afterwards, ofc it was going to grow back together, but she was incapacitated till then.

Yes, she does, but since ejecting the claws requires her muscles to move, Cass can actually see them being deployed before they are out. Not to mention Laura still has to kick to bring the claw to bear so it just becomes a question of blocking the kick.

We should, since we know who they are. Marvel has pegged Iron Fist as the greatest MA they have, while DC tends to shift a bit between Cassandra and Lady Shiva. Danny has mystic Kung-Fu, Cassandra can body read.

Wait a second, wait a second. Are you telling me Cassandra has X-ray vision now? That not only can she see the internal anatomy of Laura's foot to tell when she's deploying the claw, but that she can do it THROUGH HER BOOTS? Or is Laura fighting barefoot and in shorts? This is PRECISELY the problem with Bat Fans and Cass' body-reading. Eventually it ends up as outright precognition. Never mind that apparently no one in the DCU uses basic misdirection and feinting techniques.

And that still doesn't answer how "Greatest MA they have" calibrates between universes.

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deactivated-5bb52f8f25413

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I say Laura.

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brucerogers

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#72  Edited By brucerogers

@morpheus_: While I completely agree that all feats aren't transferable between clones, I think an argument can made for those feats that are possible thanks to a certain ability that the clones share and more importantly, stand on an even footing on.

For example, we have seen Peter lift a car with ease. And we know Ben Reilly is his clone and possessed the same stats as him or at least before Peter's recent amps. So we don't need him to lift one on screen for us to say he can do that.

Similarly, Wolverine cannot be dropped by nerve strikes due to his healing factor. The same should hold true for Laura given that they pretty much heal at the same rate. Unless she has some anti feats to suggest otherwise, of course.

I wouldnt be scaling her to him if we were talking about skill, strength, durability or intellect.

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Outside_85

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Wait a second, wait a second. Are you telling me Cassandra has X-ray vision now? That not only can she see the internal anatomy of Laura's foot to tell when she's deploying the claw, but that she can do it THROUGH HER BOOTS? Or is Laura fighting barefoot and in shorts? This is PRECISELY the problem with Bat Fans and Cass' body-reading. Eventually it ends up as outright precognition. Never mind that apparently no one in the DCU uses basic misdirection and feinting techniques.

And that still doesn't answer how "Greatest MA they have" calibrates between universes.

No, but Cassandra can see muscle twitches and has learned to decode instantly what move every given twitch is going to result in. And no, she doesn't have to be able to look through her boot, she just have to see part of her lower leg since thats how far up toe movement can be see... which Laura actually helps a bit with since she has a preference for tight clothes. As near as it makes no difference, yes you could say Cass essentially has pre-cog, as for feints... don't be silly, ofc they do, but what good is it going to do when she can still see the real attack coming just as easily and she's still fast enough to react to it?

The same way we calibrate everything else between universes, look at their feats, what are they capable of.

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The_Badman

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Cassandra outskills Laura by a huge margin, but that's not gonna help her here at all. Laura wins 7-8/10.

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#75  Edited By Ambaryerno

@outside_85 said:

Wait a second, wait a second. Are you telling me Cassandra has X-ray vision now? That not only can she see the internal anatomy of Laura's foot to tell when she's deploying the claw, but that she can do it THROUGH HER BOOTS? Or is Laura fighting barefoot and in shorts? This is PRECISELY the problem with Bat Fans and Cass' body-reading. Eventually it ends up as outright precognition. Never mind that apparently no one in the DCU uses basic misdirection and feinting techniques.

And that still doesn't answer how "Greatest MA they have" calibrates between universes.

No, but Cassandra can see muscle twitches and has learned to decode instantly what move every given twitch is going to result in. And no, she doesn't have to be able to look through her boot, she just have to see part of her lower leg since thats how far up toe movement can be see... which Laura actually helps a bit with since she has a preference for tight clothes. As near as it makes no difference, yes you could say Cass essentially has pre-cog, as for feints... don't be silly, ofc they do, but what good is it going to do when she can still see the real attack coming just as easily and she's still fast enough to react to it?

The same way we calibrate everything else between universes, look at their feats, what are they capable of.

Laura's foot claw doesn't come from her toes, but somewhere within the foot itself. Whatever the anatomy, it doesn't change what we see of the musculature of her lower leg, so there's NO indication that there's anything for Cassandra to see. And see what happens to Taskmaster if she blocks the kick in the wrong way (which if she doesn't know about the claw, she's liable to do, and Laura's use of her foot claws centers around doing just that).

Thanks for confirming the Power Creep, btw (just an FYI, a feint IS a real attack, it's only reacting to the opponent's attempt to deflect it and following up with a counter that turns it INTO a feint)!

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#76  Edited By Ambaryerno

yes you could say Cass essentially has pre-cog

To clarify for those playing along, no, you can't. Pre-cog is pre-cog, body reading is body reading. Cass isn't reacting to anything BEFORE it happens, she's just better at spotting the movement WHEN it happens. She still requires her opponent to actually move, and is not doing anything that every other martial artist EVER doesn't already do. She's just able to do it better because of the handwave about language centers. So that means there IS a margin for error under which she can be caught by a misdirection.

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@morpheus_: Wolverine is being discussed because CIB brought him up as well (which I guess happened because someone scaled Laura off of him). Not that I think his healing feats apply to Laura. I'm just providing info. As for the other thing, it actually makes his showing way more impressive.

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@morpheus_: Wolverine is being discussed because CIB brought him up as well (which I guess happened because someone scaled Laura off of him). Not that I think his healing feats apply to Laura. I'm just providing info. As for the other thing, it actually makes his showing way more impressive.

Except it's been said and shown multiple times that Laura actually heals faster than Logan - even Logan's admitted this on several occasions. I think it's safe to say that any of Logan's healing feats could easily be applied to Laura.

For some strength feats for Laura, she's tossed a fully geared college football player over her head (during her journey into the Ultimate Universe in All-New X-Men), straight up tackled Rockslide in a football match (second last issue of Avengers Academy, and Rockslide is basically an 8-foot rock golem), and there are others already mentioned in this thread. It's clear that she has at least some level of superhuman strength through her healing repairing her muscles much faster than us puny humans.

Yes, Cassandra Cain is likely the more skilled of the two, Laura is still a very skilled fighter who's got every other possible advantage one could have in this fight. Including the one that would matter the most - she's too durable to take down for long, and while Cass would eventually tire, Laura could keep going for days if need be. I vote Laura 9 times out of 10.

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Stormdriven

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Threads like this are why I consider Cassandra to be one of the most overrated characters on the forum

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@stormdriven said:

Threads like this are why I consider Cassandra to be one of the most overrated characters on the forum

You can pretty much extend that to the entire Bat Family.

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Alastor0

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X 23 bodies this fodder honestly, Cass is tough but she is still human and X 23 is like one of the strongest Wolverines

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Edgelord91

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Either way but leaning towards 23