Cassandra cain vs X-23

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jiggs1234

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Post crisis onwards

616

Who wins and why

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AvengingWidow

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X-23 She can't die

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King-Ragnar

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#3  Edited By King-Ragnar

Been done.

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Stalin-Is-Steel

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Cain isn't this good.

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Outside_85

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Cain... because Laura's skeleton is as easy to break to Cassandra as anyone elses is.

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deactivated-5c830d4e319e6

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#7  Edited By Outside_85

@originalcaptain said:

@outside_85:

It’s not. Laura has superhuman stats.

Her regenerative powers does not make her skeleton harder to break or her movements more or less predictable to Cassandra.

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deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4

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Cain... because Laura's skeleton is as easy to break to Cassandra as anyone elses is.

are you saying she's as durable as a regular human...that's rich

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Outside_85

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@outside_85 said:

Cain... because Laura's skeleton is as easy to break to Cassandra as anyone elses is.

are you saying she's as durable as a regular human...that's rich

Are you pretending a broken knee, elbow, shoulder or neck wont slow her down at all?

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@_kingoflatveria said:
@outside_85 said:

Cain... because Laura's skeleton is as easy to break to Cassandra as anyone elses is.

are you saying she's as durable as a regular human...that's rich

Are you pretending a broken knee, elbow, shoulder or neck wont slow her down at all?

not really when I think about it. She's healed from far worse. You're still dodging the question.

Are you saying she's as durable as any other normal humans and her bones are just as easy to break

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Outside_85

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@outside_85 said:
@_kingoflatveria said:
@outside_85 said:

Cain... because Laura's skeleton is as easy to break to Cassandra as anyone elses is.

are you saying she's as durable as a regular human...that's rich

Are you pretending a broken knee, elbow, shoulder or neck wont slow her down at all?

not really when I think about it. She's healed from far worse. You're still dodging the question.

Are you saying she's as durable as any other normal humans and her bones are just as easy to break

You are not thinking very hard then. yeah, she's healed from worse, that doesn't make her able to loose her legs below the knees and run onward on the stumps.

So for the slow-minded: yeah, Laura's skeleton is not any more durable than any other humans.

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Warlockmage

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@_kingoflatveria said:
@outside_85 said:
@_kingoflatveria said:
@outside_85 said:

Cain... because Laura's skeleton is as easy to break to Cassandra as anyone elses is.

are you saying she's as durable as a regular human...that's rich

Are you pretending a broken knee, elbow, shoulder or neck wont slow her down at all?

not really when I think about it. She's healed from far worse. You're still dodging the question.

Are you saying she's as durable as any other normal humans and her bones are just as easy to break

You are not thinking very hard then. yeah, she's healed from worse, that doesn't make her able to loose her legs below the knees and run onward on the stumps.

So for the slow-minded: yeah, Laura's skeleton is not any more durable than any other humans.

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pansito

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does laura not have her bones covered in adamantium?

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juiceboks

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#14  Edited By juiceboks  Moderator

@pansito: No..but she clearly has superhuman durability even without it just like Wolverine.

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Ambaryerno

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#15  Edited By Ambaryerno

@pansito: No..but she clearly has superhuman durability even without it just like Wolverine.

This is correct. Laura’s healing factor gives her denser bones, muscle, and connective tissue than a baseline human. As a result, her bones are naturally harder to break, she has low-level super strength, (she was shown climbing Fin a Fang Foom’s digestive tract rather effortlessly with 300lbs of Logan on her back) AND she can use more of her muscle potential because of her enhanced skeletal and connective tissue.

The main thing Cass has going for her is her body reading and bullet-timing. However the former pretty much just makes her a poor-man’s Taskmaster, (Laura already kicked his ass the same way she‘d beat Cass’s reading; surprise foot claw) and Laura has also demonstrated possible BT herself. She definitely has some serious speed and reflex feats beyond that (blitzing Belasco on his home turf, and several times has sliced bullets in two with her claws — at least once when fired at point-blank range — and was able to cross a room to put herself between a bullet and it’s target AFTER it was fired).

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god_spawn

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#16  Edited By god_spawn  Moderator  Online

The healing factor of the Wolverine characters gives them ridiculous damage soak to blunt force type damages. Kinney and Daken tanked a fall off a tall building and got up fine. They tanked a bomb that took out a skyscraper and were found flayed to their muscle tissue, still conscious. Kinney’s tanked point blank grenades with only her stomach bleeding. She took falls out of airplanes and still maintained consciousness. She took a few hits from an amped up Blob until he pulped, IIRC a punch from WWH before being thrown, and had her legs run over by a train and they stayed attached only to heal a few moments later. This extends to Daken since he got messed up from an enraged Thing and healed a few panels later, blows from Skaar etc.

While they don’t have the added benefit of an adamantium skeleton, his kids are ridiculously durable to blunt trauma.

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Ambaryerno

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She took a few hits from an amped up Blob until he pulped

And that pulping required MASSIVE PIS on Laura's part to begin with.

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robertloucksjr

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Injuries and fatigue eventually give X-23 the one shot win. Cass can't put her down and holding down someone with death in all four appendages would be almost impossible.

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god_spawn

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#19 god_spawn  Moderator  Online

@ambaryerno: He said the attack was sloppy to begin with. Very unlike her. Still, my point stands as far as the feat goes.

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Batvibe12

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Laura.

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TheWatcherKing

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#21  Edited By TheWatcherKing

Laura wins.

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brucerogers

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"Cass stomps because Laura has a human skeleton and and will absolutely do nothing but stand there and let Cass hit her".

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@outside_85:

That’s not what I wrote. She still has superhuman speed, strength and durability. Her bones are harder than the bones of a regular human.

Her regeneration is just an extra Cassie can’t overcome. 1 good hit and Laura wins this while Cassie would have trouble actually putting Laura down for more than 1 second.

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dami24434

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Laura wins eventually.

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WollfMyth209

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Cass wins in a great fight.

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jay_z94

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#26  Edited By jay_z94

By feats, they are equally fast but Cass is a lot more skilled. She could put Laura down with pressure points, however i'm not sure if they'd work on her considering Wolverine has shrugged of pressure points due to the healing factor. It'd be a good fight though.

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@jay_z94 said:

By feats, they are equally fast but Cass is a lot more skilled. She could put Laura down with pressure points, however i'm not sure if they'd work on her considering Wolverine has shrugged of pressure points due to the healing factor. It'd be a good fight though.

Frankly, it's impossible to say HOW their skills compare to one another since the few inter-company crossovers that have occurred are riddled with asterisks (Logan beating Lobo, for instance). You can judge their skill within their own universes, but that still doesn't indicate how they rank comparatively. IE fighting skills in one company could have a higher cap than in the other. Laura has been able to out-maneuver Captain America — one of Marvel's top hand-to-hand combatants — in a fight, even managing to disarm him of his shield. She's also taken out Taskmaster, whose entire power set pretty much IS to be one of the best fighters in the Marvel Universe, since he absorbs every fighting style he sees. But we have no reliable metric for comparing them to the likes of Batman or Lady Shiva, since power scaling ITSELF can be so radically different between the companies.

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brucerogers

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@ambaryerno: Actually she only beat Taskmaster after suckering him with her leg claws - which wouldn't have happened if he hadn't caught her kick and prattled.

He was beating her fairly easily by copying and countering her blows. But thats a feat for him, rather than a low showing for her.

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Cassandra, good fight. Faster combat speed wise, more skilled fighter, and has move reading as the perfect defensive mechanism. Pressure points put Laura down. This would make for a good CaV.

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#30  Edited By brucerogers

@lanternbatman: Nerve strikes arent likely to work on her given that they have failed against Wolverine. She is literally his opposite sex clone.

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@brucerogers: Cassie’s nerve strikes have took out house sized monsters. What were the nerve strikes used against Wolverine like? Also Cassandra’s nerve strikes aren’t necessarily for a knockout, she can use them for other effects. Like paralyzation and sleep inducing nerve strikes. Has Wolverine ever took nerve strikes like that?

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#32  Edited By brucerogers

@lanternbatman: Echo, who is basically Taskmaster lite, only annoyed Logan with nerve strikes she copied from Daredevil himself and he is a better nerve striker than Cass. Even while being weakened by an extremely potent nerve toxin, Logan was unaffected by Lord Shingen's nerve strikes until the poison really started taxing his HF. And this was back in the day when he could be slowed down and stunned by bullets.

I dont see why the size of the nerve strikee matters when they have nerves that can be affected all the same. In fact, sometimes it gets easier to use it on giants thanks to their nerves having a much large surface area that are ripe for striking. Just look at Midnighter vs Maul.

Its not that Laura is immune to them, but her HF should help her recover almost instantly. Unless Cass has proven that she can take out someone with a HF as good as hers or Wolverine's. They will just make her madder and then things will get really messy for Cass.

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@jay_z94:

By feats, they are equally fast

Reaction times are arguable, but Cassie definitely has better combat speed. In seconds, she can fairly casually dismantle a group of CIA Agents at FTE speeds. So she's dodging, punching, in general moving around, performing several combat related actions at complete FTE speeds, she literally couldn't be seen. X-23 has faster than eyesight combat speed, I can buy that. But FTE speeds of this level are rarely seen. Hell, Batgirl can go through an entire mansion, crossing all that distance, and taking down all those guards in mere moments, all at FTE speeds. This is a legitimate low speedster level feat, and I sincerely doubt X-23 can replicate it, correct me if I'm wrong though. I have other combat speed feats to unpack however:

Batgirl Vol. 1 #13; Batgirl Vol. 1 Annual #1

Here, in the span of a bottle falling to the ground ergo a fraction, probably less, of a second, Cassandra absolutely blitzes a group of thugs, taking all of them well before the bottle finally lands and ends it's journey, so she does a series of complex actions before a bottle drops the ground/

Batman: Gotham City - Secret Files and Origins

Faster than eyesight of the level mentioned earlier doesn't get any more impressive in the sense of how continuously you can do it, but it does get better. Basically Robin is fighting a small army of 50 fifty persons, note they were amped on the soul drug which gives the user superhuman stats (enough to lift cars), Tim Drake gets easily overwhelmed. Orphan comes in and in seconds takes out all of them right before Tim wakes up from being dazed, and as we see men dropping with no explanation this is clear-cut FTE. So Cass came in and effortlessly blitzed 50 soul drug amped humans turned metahumans at FTE, in mere seconds. This is crazy speed right there. And trust me, excluding the mansion feat, none of these are her best feats yet.

Batgirl Vol. 1 #49

but Cass is a lot more skilled.

Yes, I would say curbstomping an army of 100-200 League Of Shadow ninjas, utterly destroying Nightwing in less than a minute, pretty much stomping Deathstroke all showings that validate her being far more skilled.

She could put Laura down with pressure points, however i'm not sure if they'd work on her considering Wolverine has shrugged of pressure points due to the healing factor. It'd be a good fight though.

I've arguing this above.

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@brucerogers:

Echo, who is basically Taskmaster lite, only annoyed Logan with nerve strikes she copied from Daredevil himself and he is a better nerve striker than Cass

What kind of nerve strikes was she using? Because Daredevil uses a lot of different nerve strikes from what I've seen. And what feats does he have on Cass's level?

. Even while being weakened by an extremely potent nerve toxin, Logan was unaffected by Lord Shingen's nerve strikes until the poison really started taxing his HF. And this was back in the day when he could be slowed down and stunned by bullets.

I guess this is nice and all, but it speaks more to how much his healing factor can help him even while it's weakened, rather than the level/kinds of nerve strikes he can recover from. Unless Lord Shingen has impressive feats I'm unaware of.

I dont see why the size of the nerve strikee matters when they have nerves that can be affected all the same. In fact, sometimes it gets easier to use it on giants thanks to their nerves having a much large surface area that are ripe for striking. Just look at Midnighter vs Maul.

It's not size, it's just I see it likely that a house sized monster is more durable than X-23, and thus, his nerve strikes will be harder to affect.

Its not that Laura is immune to them, but her HF should help her recover almost instantly. Unless Cass has proven that she can take out someone with a HF as good as hers or Wolverine's. They will just make her madder and then things will get really messy for Cass.

Yeah, but unless she has resisted nerve strikes of Cassie's level through healing factor, I don't think we can assume her HF can stop her from getting KOed. Other than that, again has her healing factor helped her or Logan against complete paralyzation or sleep inducing nerve strikes? That's vastly different from nerve strikes meant to KO, especially the first one. The brain can neither send nor receive signals to an area of the body, if I recall correctly that's how it works. It's incap, not KO.

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@lanternbatman: Logan tanked pressure point blows that targeted nerve clusters capable of either killing or paralyzing a human being from Shingen, a Swordsman who's even better at swordsmanship than Wolverine at the time, in the very first issue of the very first series Logan had outside of Hulk, X-Men and guest appearances (by Chris Claremont and Frank Miller). Not only was his healing factor way weaker at the time, but he was actually poisoned prior to the fight by shuriken poison capable of killing a human being, that weakened him and his healing factor. Yet Logan tanked a strike at nerve cluster that would have INSTANTLY paralyzed or killed a human, used by master swordsman and kept going with zero effort. He lost the fight, but was weakened and was holding back.

So yes, Logan tanked nerve strikes that cause instant paralyzation quite casually with barely any damage and kept going, even tho he was extremely weakened and poisoned, with his healing factor being way weaker than it was in modern age even without that context (Wolverine Vol. 1 #1).

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@lanternbatman: They didnt specify what kind of nerve strikes she was using but she wanted to stop him from attacking her - so I suppose the KOing kind. I fail to see what difference it makes either way. A nerve strike is a nerve strike and he healed from it.

Daredevil can take away vision, make a person feel like their eyeballs are hot coals in their heads, simulate the burning sensation of a freaking blowtorch, one shot class 30-40 bricks - all with a simple touch. I have never seen Cass do something that impressive.

Durability has nothing to do with being resistant to nerve strikes, unless you are durable to the point where your skin won't even deform enough, or at all, for the strikes to hit the nerves. And again, I am not arguing that Cass cant affect her nerves. She can. But it wont do her much good thanks to the HF.

And you are splitting hairs with your last paragraph. His healing factor doesnt discriminate between nerves. They work the same for all of them - whether you try to affect his arm or his lungs. Instead you could show me feats of Cass affecting anyone with even a halfway decent HF...

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@jay_z94 said:

By feats, they are equally fast but Cass is a lot more skilled. She could put Laura down with pressure points, however i'm not sure if they'd work on her considering Wolverine has shrugged of pressure points due to the healing factor. It'd be a good fight though.

Beast has also shrugged off pressure point attacks from Zen Deadpool id like to think that is because of his healing factor as well

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Deadpool #38

so i think it is safe to say that, in general, marvel healing factors help with pressure point attacks

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Outside_85

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@outside_85:

That’s not what I wrote. She still has superhuman speed, strength and durability. Her bones are harder than the bones of a regular human.

Her regeneration is just an extra Cassie can’t overcome. 1 good hit and Laura wins this while Cassie would have trouble actually putting Laura down for more than 1 second.

Lol no she is does not have any of those abilities. She has the ability to regenerate damage and the ability to ignore pain, nothing more.

She could break any number of joints and there wouldn't really be a damn thing Laura could do about it.

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#40  Edited By brucerogers

@outside_85: So you think falling off a plane at terminal velocity and still having all her bones, joints, muscles etc in one place with minimal blood, is within the durability range of a normal human? I would love to see a Youtube video of that. She healed within seconds from that btw.

And there is plenty Laura can do to Cass. Namely cutting her limbs off, decapitating her, eviscerating her...fill in the details with your imagination.

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@originalcaptain said:

@outside_85:

That’s not what I wrote. She still has superhuman speed, strength and durability. Her bones are harder than the bones of a regular human.

Her regeneration is just an extra Cassie can’t overcome. 1 good hit and Laura wins this while Cassie would have trouble actually putting Laura down for more than 1 second.

Lol no she is does not have any of those abilities. She has the ability to regenerate damage and the ability to ignore pain, nothing more.

She could break any number of joints and there wouldn't really be a damn thing Laura could do about it.

I'm not sure about you, but I've never seen a human cut through or deflect bullets after they fire , or dodge an entire machine gun clip point blank at their backs. I've also never seen a human rip metal doors off their hinges. Neither have I seen a human take hits from cho-hulk level monsters and falls off of buildings and airplanes and be fine, but hey, maybe you have.

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Lol...

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Outside_85

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@outside_85: So you think falling off a plane at terminal velocity and still having all her bones, joints, muscles etc in one place with minimal blood, is within the durability range of a normal human? I would love to see a Youtube video of that. She healed within seconds from that btw.

And there is plenty Laura can do to Cass. Namely cutting her limbs off, decapitating her, eviscerating her...fill in the details with your imagination.

There is a level of crap writers indulge in on normal levels when it comes to people like Batman or Daredevil fall 80 floors of building before firing a grapple of somekind and not having their arms torn out of their sockets before loosing their grip. But I dont know if you've ever noticed that?

There isn't, because Cassandra can see what Laura wants to do the moment she acts on it. What Laura needs and doesn't have is something to hide her tells in her muscle twitches, as proven by Captain Skull-Face who knew every move she could make because he knew every move Logan could make save popping a blade out of his foot.

I'm not sure about you, but I've never seen a human cut through or deflect bullets after they fire , or dodge an entire machine gun clip point blank at their backs. I've also never seen a human rip metal doors off their hinges.

Neither have I seen a human take hits from cho-hulk level monsters and falls off of buildings and airplanes and be fine, but hey, maybe you have.

and if you want to go by that that route, I have also seen l aura gunned down by machine fire and I've seen Cassandra dodge bullets after they have been fired.

they are called comicbook characters with 'human stats' but maybe you haven't noticed them?

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@outside_85:

so you are saying every "human" character in comic books is human level...you do know you're not doing something right yes?

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@outside_85: You do realise that comics don't need to adhere to real life laws and limitations right? Take Cass herself for example - dodges sniper rounds, shatters thick prison walls, moves so fast that she is invisible etc and all without any explicit powers. So you going to nitpick those too?

And Taskmaster's feats dont get carried over to Cass. She can predict attacks via body reading, while he can discern the opponent's fighting style and devise a perfect counter on the fly by using said moves. In other words, he is much better at move countering than she is.

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#46  Edited By Battle123axe

@outside_85 said:
@brucerogers said:

@outside_85: So you think falling off a plane at terminal velocity and still having all her bones, joints, muscles etc in one place with minimal blood, is within the durability range of a normal human? I would love to see a Youtube video of that. She healed within seconds from that btw.

And there is plenty Laura can do to Cass. Namely cutting her limbs off, decapitating her, eviscerating her...fill in the details with your imagination.

There is a level of crap writers indulge in on normal levels when it comes to people like Batman or Daredevil fall 80 floors of building before firing a grapple of somekind and not having their arms torn out of their sockets before loosing their grip. But I dont know if you've ever noticed that?

There isn't, because Cassandra can see what Laura wants to do the moment she acts on it. What Laura needs and doesn't have is something to hide her tells in her muscle twitches, as proven by Captain Skull-Face who knew every move she could make because he knew every move Logan could make save popping a blade out of his foot.

I'm not sure about you, but I've never seen a human cut through or deflect bullets after they fire , or dodge an entire machine gun clip point blank at their backs. I've also never seen a human rip metal doors off their hinges.

Neither have I seen a human take hits from cho-hulk level monsters and falls off of buildings and airplanes and be fine, but hey, maybe you have.

and if you want to go by that that route, I have also seen l aura gunned down by machine fire and I've seen Cassandra dodge bullets after they have been fired.

cool, one's likely a feat with context that you're downplaying, and one's a legitimate speed feat.

they are called comicbook characters with 'human stats' but maybe you haven't noticed them?

Damn, I suppose every time a comic character does anything that a human can't do, then the feat is completely irrelevant, huh? Well, welcome to 95% of the feats in comics.

How about the hulk,thor, beta ray bill, silver surfer,thanos, etc being labeled 100 tonners, are you going to tell me that they can only lift 100 tons?

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Outside_85

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@outside_85:

so you are saying every "human" character in comic books is human level...you do know you're not doing something right yes?

You do know everyone knows you aren't terribly bright?

@outside_85: You do realise that comics don't need to adhere to real life laws and limitations right? Take Cass herself for example - dodges sniper rounds, shatters thick prison walls, moves so fast that she is invisible etc and all without any explicit powers. So you going to nitpick those too?

And Taskmaster's feats dont get carried over to Cass. She can predict attacks via body reading, while he can discern the opponent's fighting style and devise a perfect counter on the fly by using said moves. In other words, he is much better at move countering than she is.

I am going to nidpick them because I know what Cassandra is capable of, and because I know what Laura is capable of. And what I know is that Cassandra can tell every Laura is about to make and react to it and has the muchu to retaliate and stop Laura from making another. Whats your argument? That Laura can just run at full tilt even if her legs have suffered clean breaks over the knees?

Which he isn't, he's a perfect mimic meaning if you are on his physical level you've had it the moment he is able to phantom out your fighting style. Laura was made and trained to mimic Logan to the milisecond, meaning the only way she could counter Tasky was to pulls out something Logan couldn't do... same is true with Cassandra, only what are the chances she is going to put one of her vital organs or her limbs right on top where Laura's foot claw comes out?

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deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4

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@outside_85:

You do know everyone knows you aren't terribly bright?

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King-Ragnar

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I think it's safe to say Cassandra is more overhyped than MCU Cap or CW Arrow.

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brucerogers

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@outside_85: No sir, your comments show you don't know what Laura is capable of at all. Breaking legs or whatever is not so easy when she is fast enough to go toe to toe with Wolverine, possess claws that can cut through Titanium like hot butter and the skill and viciousness to go with it. Then there is the healing....

And again Taskmaster =/= Cassandra Cain. Not sure why you are under this impression that Cass can do anything Tasky can do.