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#1 Edited by All-Father (4672 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassandra Cain

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Rules

  • Post Crisis/New 52/Rebirth
  • 616 Versions
  • Everyone is in character
  • Cassandra is healed between rounds and gets an hours rest
  • Cassie and her opponents get basic knowledge on each other
  • Standard Gear for everyone (T'Challa does not get his Vibranium suit)

The Gauntlet

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#3 Edited by Amendment50 (12645 posts) - - Show Bio

Can clear. Only question for me is if she can do so with only an hour's rest after each round. That said I could see her stopping from T'challa to Danny.

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#4 Edited by blackestnight93 (14819 posts) - - Show Bio

Shang Chi is above T'Challa? With standard gear? Unless we're giving Shang his Stark tech? Although I'm not sure that's standard gear for him or not and even then, I'm not sure if that puts him above T'Challa. I'm not sure if she can get past T'Challa's gear and the hours rest in between rounds only makes me doubt she can clear.

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#5 Posted by Warlockmage (5931 posts) - - Show Bio

gauntlet is insanely out of order

stops at T'challa...

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#6 Edited by All-Father (4672 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackestnight93 said:

Shang Chi is above T'Challa? With standard gear? Unless we're giving Shang his Stark tech? Although I'm not sure that's standard gear for him or not and even then, I'm not sure if that puts him above T'Challa. I'm not sure if she can get past T'Challa's gear and the hours rest in between rounds only makes me doubt she can clear.

I'll edit T'Challa's gear.

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#7 Posted by All-Father (4672 posts) - - Show Bio

gauntlet is insanely out of order

stops at T'challa...

How so?

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#8 Posted by BruceRogers (11545 posts) - - Show Bio

Can clear. Only question for me is if she can do so with only an hour's rest after each round. That said I could see her stopping from T'challa to Danny.

How is she beating either without rest?. With standard gear and equipment.

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#9 Posted by superman52445 (148 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at daredevil

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#10 Posted by Warlockmage (5931 posts) - - Show Bio

@warlockmage said:

gauntlet is insanely out of order

stops at T'challa...

How so?

Silver Sable has stalemated both Punisher and Black Widow...

Moon Knight is more skilled than Punisher, BW, and Sable

Elektra just got done kicking the shit out of Iron Fist in pure H2H, in fact Danny was so taxed he was pissed that Matt didnt help (he had to use his Chi to KO her) so one of those 2 placements is wrong (ill give you a hint its Danny)

and T'challa is more skilled than Danny and Shang-Chi.

Daredevil should also be more skilled than Shang-Chi by feats

so keeping this is mind you have correctly placed 2 out 9 people in this gauntlet.

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#11 Edited by Amendment50 (12645 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers: She does have rest, just not much, and she is healed. Depending on how hard of a fight she gets rounds 1-6 I can see her coming into round 7 in near full condition.

That said, T'Challa, Danny and Shang would all be trouble even at 100% and as I said I would bet against her clearing. But I do think it is possible.

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#12 Posted by Amendment50 (12645 posts) - - Show Bio

@warlockmage: With access to the Fist, Danny definitely deserves a place near the top of this gauntlet imo. Even though against Cass he would be disinclined to resort to it. T'Challa should still be above him though imo, or above Shang at the minimum.

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#13 Edited by BruceRogers (11545 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Edited by All-Father (4672 posts) - - Show Bio

@warlockmage:

Silver Sable has stalemated both Punisher and Black Widow...

I don't have extensive knowledge on Sable so excuse me

Moon Knight is more skilled than Punisher, BW, and Sable

I find that highly debatable (Barring Sable)

Elektra just got done kicking the shit out of Iron Fist in pure H2H, in fact Danny was so taxed he was pissed that Matt didnt help (he had to use his Chi to KO her) so one of those 2 placements is wrong (ill give you a hint its Danny)

Danny had no intention of fighting and was holding back for the majority of the fight.

and T'challa is more skilled than Danny and Shang-Chi

Again, that is very debatable

Daredevil should also be more skilled than Shang-Chi by feats

This is also very debatable

so keeping this is mind you have correctly placed 2 out 9 people in this gauntlet.

the first couple of rounds then you are correct, either than that i don't see how it is "Insanely out of order" as you seem to be the only one saying that.

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#15 Edited by Rac95 (1107 posts) - - Show Bio

@amendment50 said:

Can clear. Only question for me is if she can do so with only an hour's rest after each round. That said I could see her stopping from T'challa to Danny.

I agree nearly completely with you here, but I don't think she clears and I think a case for Daredevil could be made

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#16 Posted by Owie (6667 posts) - - Show Bio

With only an hour's rest after each fight, Cass will be taxed enough to stop at Elektra. The Marvel characters from Elektra upwards are relatively equal in ability, and I am honestly undecided how Cass does against them. I'd generally say that a fight between almost any of them against her is a coin flip, or close enough that it's not worth getting into the debate. That's all in terms of pure skill. With gear and other abilities, Shang-chi, T'challa, and Iron Fist would definitely win.

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#17 Posted by Pipxeroth (7354 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at Matt after a brutal fight with Elektra

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#18 Posted by ITheManWithoutFearI (6492 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at Matt in a brutal fight.

T'Challa stomps her.

Shang Chi shouldnt be so high.

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#19 Posted by geekryan (634 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at DD

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#20 Posted by LDM (2949 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at 5. End in a super hot lesbian sex

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#21 Posted by ANTHP2000 (10269 posts) - - Show Bio

7, 8 possibly. Definitely 9.

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#22 Edited by decaf_wizard (12254 posts) - - Show Bio

@warlockmage said:

gauntlet is insanely out of order

stops at T'challa...

This, possibly lower

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#23 Edited by jay_z94 (4614 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at T'Challa who should be above Shang Chi.

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#24 Posted by All-Father (4672 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94 said:

Stops at T'Challa who should be above Shang Chi.

Couldn't decide who to put above who, the skill gap between everyone from 5 till 9 isn't that big.

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#25 Posted by IndomitableRegal (10086 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassie could clear, but if she stops it will be somewhere between 7-9.

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#26 Posted by Hyper_Temporal_Shift (731 posts) - - Show Bio

These seem out of order. I could see Cass beating Daredevil possibly. Not so sure about Shang-Chi. She won't beat Iron Fist.

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#27 Posted by Thordinson (1370 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by TheOneWhoKnows (4383 posts) - - Show Bio

Gauntlet is kind of out of order.

With only an hour's rest between opponents of this caliber, she could possibly stop at Black Widow, definitely stops at Elektra

With longer proper rest, stops at Black Panther due to his life long training in virtually every combat form on Earth (including Wakandan styles known only to inhabitants of this secretive society) combined with his superior metahuman physicals.

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#29 Posted by Stormdriven (15932 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at Matt, after Elektra gives her trouble

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#30 Posted by the_wspanialy (2119 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassie could clear, but if she stops it will be somewhere between 7-9.

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#31 Posted by Zemoftw (1159 posts) - - Show Bio

This is out of order

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#32 Posted by All-Father (4672 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Edited by decaf_wizard (12254 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhoknows said:

Gauntlet is kind of out of order.

With only an hour's rest between opponents of this caliber, she could possibly stop at Black Widow, definitely stops at Elektra

With longer proper rest, stops at Black Panther due to his life long training in virtually every combat form on Earth (including Wakandan styles known only to inhabitants of this secretive society) combined with his superior metahuman physicals.

Do you think Widow would be fast enough though? Cass has displayed low end bullet timing, which even when tired should put her way above Natasha's speed range

Black Panther basically can't lose against her though tbh. Even without his vibranium suit, gear and skill advantage is too much and Cassandra's speed advantage which she would rely on to clear some of the earlier rounds is nonexistent

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#34 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4383 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father: Upon reflection, I find I agree with you. Though I think Frank-despite being one wily, tough as nails son of a gun-should be no. 1 (I think the others are superior to him in pure, martial arts acumen) the last three positions definitely are debatable. My bad, man.

@decaf_wizard I do think Natasha is fast enough, due to her past accomplishments. I think the ravishing redhead is one of the most underrated characters on Comic Vine. Let me explain why:

In Black Widow issue, three, absolutely stalemated Electra (in a TRUE stalemate, not just an interrupted fight) despite undergoing major surgery a few days before;

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Among other feats, Natasha defeated her ex-husband, the Red Guardian---a man who took Captain America to the limit in a protracted battle in Avengers issue 44; defeated that same Captain America when he was bloodlusted due to the fumes of designer drugs in Captain America issue 376-after a lengthy battle, as the fight neared its conclusion she maneuvered behind him, tapped him on the shoulder, and when he struck where she should be, he missed because she was cleverly using her spider like ability to cling to surfaces to hang by her feet on the ceiling; she used that split second to knock him out with a widow's bite to the face;

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and during a story arc in Marvel Fanfare issues 10-13 she single handily took on, in issue 11, 6 deadly assassins -N'kama, Deadshot Darrace, the Iron Maiden (a longtime Marvel comics villain) Laralie, the Black Lotus, and Kono (a super strong Sumo and martial artist that gave Captain America a tough battle). Despite her arms being tied behind her back during a good bit of the confrontation, she defeated 5 of the 6 at one time, and later during the issue beat Iron Maiden (despite the villain's head to toe body armor and martial arts skills). Not to mention, Natasha defeated literally 100 armed, deadly assassins in Marvel Two-In-One 10 to keep them from stopping the Thing, who was pulling up a deadly, enormous bomb from being dropped on the city, and Widow flipped the giant Typhon, an arch foe of Hercules; he bellowed with rage that a "mere mortal female" managed to accomplish such a feat.

So yeah, I think a woman who has accomplished the above could give Cassie a tough, tough battle (though I would always give the ersatz Batgirl the majority).

As for Black Panther, I totally agree with you. He still has metahuman physicals above Cass, suit or not. Even if he didn't, he has martial arts skills to easily rival hers (and I have a ton of incredible feats he's accomplished even when depowered).

Combine the two, and there is just no way Cass can win.

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#35 Posted by decaf_wizard (12254 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhoknows: I see.

I think one issue with Natasha is that she has a plague of low showings used to lowball her often. Writers can't decide where to put her. A good example of this is being low-diffed by Daredevil twice, including once infamously bad instance where she passed out from him simply breaking her ankle.

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#36 Edited by King-Stranglehold da first (4304 posts) - - Show Bio

Cass is very good and one of my favorite martial artists in comics. She would give Panther a good fight if it were not for the fact that current Panther is not even regular human but superhuman. IMO she stops at him but it would be a good fight. Also Cass would easily maul Shang Chi.

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#37 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4383 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard: I know about one of the Murdock incidents, but I must have shut out the ankle breaking instance.

Yeeeeeesh.

Inexplicable, years long jobbing happens to a lot of characters, and it's infuriating because it makes people who don't know them well be reluctant, or even completely unwilling to give them their proper due. It's happened to so many- Darkseid, Nightwing, Superman (all of them have recovered from their time with that) and one of the characters on this thread, Black Panther for years until Christoper Priest got hold of him and turned him into the top tier he is today. But it was bad for quite awhile for T'challa (and extremely frustrating).

I hope with the attention from the animated cartoons, and her ongoing presence in the movies, Black Widow will get her well deserved, proper recognition.

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#38 Posted by decaf_wizard (12254 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by Zemoftw (1159 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhoknows: she also stalemated punisher, and recently got the upper hand

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#40 Posted by Red_Leader (83 posts) - - Show Bio

she looses to either T'Challa or Iron Fist

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#41 Edited by decaf_wizard (12254 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_stranglehold_da_first said:

Cass is very good and one of my favorite martial artists in comics. She would give Panther a good fight if it were not for the fact that current Panther is not even regular human but superhuman. IMO she stops at him but it would be a good fight. Also Cass would easily maul Shang Chi.

Dude, Shang Chi has crushed rubies with his bare hands, dances around bullet timers, physically overpowered high tiered Doombots and fought evenly with Spiderman. He has also more than held his own with Gorgon of all people, one of the undisputed kings of the high street tier. He would low diff Cass as much as I like her

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#42 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4383 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard: Oh, brother---!

Enough stories like that, and no wonder some of the users here-especially the younger ones who are unaware of her history-would think she sucks.

Good grief that's horrendous.

I've seen her take so much more than that over the years---

Sigh.

@zemoftw if that's the case, that's definitely a step in the right direction. Marvel allowing one of their top cash cows to be handled by Natasha is a good (and, considering her past feats and skill level, legitimate) thing.

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#43 Posted by decaf_wizard (12254 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by Zemoftw (1159 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhoknows: i agree. Black widow is an underrated character. I feel she deserved that win amd she rightfully got it by messing up franks legs

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#45 Posted by King-Stranglehold da first (4304 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_stranglehold_da_first said:

Cass is very good and one of my favorite martial artists in comics. She would give Panther a good fight if it were not for the fact that current Panther is not even regular human but superhuman. IMO she stops at him but it would be a good fight. Also Cass would easily maul Shang Chi.

Dude, Shang Chi has crushed rubies with his bare hands, dances around bullet timers, physically overpowered high tiered Doombots and fought evenly with Spiderman. He has also more than held his own with Gorgon of all people, one of the undisputed kings of the high street tier. He would low diff Cass as much as I like her

Cass has done the same and more.

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#46 Edited by decaf_wizard (12254 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_stranglehold_da_first said:
@decaf_wizard said:
@king_stranglehold_da_first said:

Cass is very good and one of my favorite martial artists in comics. She would give Panther a good fight if it were not for the fact that current Panther is not even regular human but superhuman. IMO she stops at him but it would be a good fight. Also Cass would easily maul Shang Chi.

Dude, Shang Chi has crushed rubies with his bare hands, dances around bullet timers, physically overpowered high tiered Doombots and fought evenly with Spiderman. He has also more than held his own with Gorgon of all people, one of the undisputed kings of the high street tier. He would low diff Cass as much as I like her

Cass has done the same and more.

Care to provide examples..........?

I don't remember Cass having done anything close to that level