CAS & Mxy VS Mikaboshi & Abraxas

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Posted by BaneCapital (1157 posts) 12 days, 18 hours ago

Poll: CAS & Mxy VS Mikaboshi & Abraxas (16 votes)

CAS & Mxy 88%
Mikaboshi & Abraxas 13%
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#51 Posted by MichaelJulius (1117 posts) - - Show Bio

Nil Monitors watched Anti Monitor and the other continuities pass by. They were unaffected. Their story was never retconned, they removed themselves from existence at the end of Final Crisis. Nil Monitors didn't care about the antics of Anti Monitor and Mar Novu the Classic Monitor. They were never retconned in the new era with the coming of Perpetua.

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Perpetua mentions The Over Void and knows about it, just like a few other characters do. In The Multiversity, it states "of Monitor Mind, Monitor and Anti Monitor are born" and it says Over Monitor doesn't know how or why they got there. The race of whatever Perpetua is, simply is a byproduct of the Over Monitor and not directly created by it.

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Over Monitor doesn't know how anything got there. Or, why beings are making things on its body.

The mere act of noticing the Flaw birthed beings like Perpetua and her style of Monitors. The timeline is that the Flaw was discovered, Over Monitor named itself, and then Over Void allowed Monitor and Anti Monitor to come to be. After that, it makes Science Monitors of Nil.

Scott Snyder changes one thing, that Perpetua made Monitor and Anti Monitor. Over Monitor doesn't know how things got there, Perpetua does. They aren't the same, the cosmologies are different now.

Nil Monitors are of a totally different continuity and are not related in the slightest to the classic Monitors.

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Then Mandrakk comes around during that and messes everything up, tying loose ends and bridging Morrisonverse with Snyderverse. Proving that this guy is beyond continuity shifts. The explanations of Perpetua, Barbatos and the other Monitors werent a part of the Final Crisis cosmology. The Snyder cosmology changed what made Anti Monitor and Monitor. And little old Mandrakk is the bridge between two completely different continuities, citing he knows about the Snyderverse characters of Barbatos and Perpetuas creations, but also lingers there from a totally different cosmology.

That is why Mandrakk is the Alpha. And why Cosmic Armor Superman obliterates the opposition, he is immune to cosmology shifts. Just like Mandrakk.

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#52 Edited by MichaelJulius (1117 posts) - - Show Bio

@rampagethefirst: It wasn't. Nil Monitors watched Anti Monitor and Mar Novu shift the continuity and they were unaffected by it. Mandrakk was a product of Morrison cosmology where The Over Monitor didn't know how the Flaw got there.

Then, he appears in The Unexpected talking about Barbatos, a character that was the pet of Perpetua's son. In that Snyder cosmology, things are different and Perpetua made Anti Monitor and Monitor.

The cosmologies are not the same, the only constant between them is the thing immune to retcon from the Morrison cosmology, showing that DC-U shifts cosmology often and retcon and that Nil Monitors are nothing like the classic Monitors. The simple fact that Mandrakk talks about the continuity errors between Snyder and Morrison cosmology is the smoking gun. Let me try to detail my view on this:

Morrison - Over Monitor didnt know how the Flaw got there.

Snyder - Perpetua caused it.

Morrison - Over Monitor naming itself caused Anti Monitor and Monitor to form.

Snyder - Perpetua made Anti Monitor and Monitor

Morrison - Whats behind the Source Wall? The Bleedspace. Nobody but a Nil Monitor can contain it.

Snyder - Whats behind the Source Wall? Nobody knows, but it imprisoned Perpetua and in the former cosmology there are only one set of things that can contain whats behind the Source Wall.

Morrison - Barbatos doesn't exist yet.

Snyder - Barbatos and the story of the Monitor brothers is the primary core plot point.

Morrison - Mandrakk looks upon COIE and is unbothered by it.

Snyder - Mandrakk drops through the over monitor and lands in the Dark Multiverse and is chained up by Barbatos because Mandrakk lost all his power in the fall.

Nil Monitors deleted themselves and they are not related to Perpetua or her sons. Mandrakk speaking about events in the past cosmology in the new cosmology is the most insane feat in DC history. The Monitor brothers have no idea what the past Cosmology was or that there even was one. The Nil Monitor knows all about it because he was actually there.

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#53 Posted by BaneCapital (1157 posts) - - Show Bio
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#54 Posted by IG-88B (131 posts) - - Show Bio

@banecapital: All I said was that abstract battles are boring, why did you tag me?

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#55 Edited by MichaelJulius (1117 posts) - - Show Bio

@banecapital: The Cosmic Armor is overkill and not interesting to debate. Mr. Mxyzptlk vs team 2 is an actual debate with some merit. Again, we are talking about an entity that was made by the literal comic page itself that contains fictions on it vs characters who are reality warpers at best. Not only is the Cosmic Armor Meta, and the residents of Team 2 are not Meta in the slightest, but the Cosmic Armor has on panel infinite adaption to anything power and also Narrative Control override of the authors of the comic book.

Just ask yourself, can Abraxus or Mikaboshi reach into the real world and remove the Meta Marvel Encylopedia before that author ever wrote it in our actual real world? Nil Monitors did that and The Cosmic Armor can one shot kill them. Of course not, Abraxus and Mikaboshi aren't Meta at all. The Deadpool argument is not valid, thats parody and meant to be a jest.

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Further, can they survive being retconned? Here, Mandrakk talks about his fight with Cosmic Armor and being flung into the Over Monitor, where at the time, the Morrison Cosmology and origin of Monitors was completely different than the actual issue this appears in. The Snyder Cosmology has different origins for Monitors and other characters that conflict with the Morrison cosmology during the Cosmic Armor vs Mandrakk fight in Final Crisis. So here is Mandrakk talking about being put into the Over Monitor during the Morrison Cosmology and landing later elsewhere in the Snyder Cosmology.

Barbatos could hardly chain Mandrakk after his fall and without any of his powers. Barbatos was burning the Dreaming and also killed The Forger, who Mr. Mxyzptlk cant comprehend let alone battle.

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This is an absolute slaughter in favor of Team 1. And also a spite of biblical proportions. He is talking about two different cosmologies that have completely different explanations.

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#56 Posted by Jmarshmallow (13919 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaeljulius: Nah, if the basis of your argument is "Fourth-wall breaking = Comic Book Meta Omnipotence," then you can't just handwave Deadpool. Either we count it, or we don't.

CAS is strong, but featwise he just doesn't compete with some of the other combatants in this fight, because his only real impressive fight was, IIRC, against Mandrakk.

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#57 Edited by Jmarshmallow (13919 posts) - - Show Bio

@banecapital: IMO after some thought CAS and Abraxas is a pretty good fight, and after seeing some of @MichaelJulius points I can see CAS taking the win there.

Mikaboshi and Mxy are on a different level though. And in that fight, I'd probably give it to Mxy.

So I guess I change my mind, Team 1 win.

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#58 Edited by y3kthunder (1265 posts) - - Show Bio

@jmarshmallow: thank you been trying to get that nonsense outta here for a bit cause a look of people can "hop out of the literal comic book itself" he trys to put cas and the monitors on a level in which they dont belong

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#59 Posted by MorbusGrav (1652 posts) - - Show Bio
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#60 Edited by norsewinter (129 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaeljulius: the problem with meta feats is that you can literally imagine and make up how meta powers work as you go to suit an argument with your imagination. this counts, but this doesnt count. its a flexible subjective series of plays that allows one to slither around its definition. thats why it is not preferred.

and i was guilty of something similar.

you can make yourself "win" an argument. but thats only because you say meta this, because meta that and that, and you decide the criteria conveniently honed to your narratives and interpretation of things as you go along.

you can continue doing this, but this is no longer "discussing" that is why your crusade last year, utterly didnt work out. and you would instead push more debaters outside of your perspective.

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#61 Posted by MichaelJulius (1117 posts) - - Show Bio

@jmarshmallow: Not really. One is parody and jest, the others are serious. There are plenty of beings in DC comics that know they are comic book characters and stuck in a fiction.

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#62 Edited by MichaelJulius (1117 posts) - - Show Bio

@norsewinter: That is what the narrative states. None of this is my opinion. This is objective, factual validated information.

Again, CAS is the entity birthed by the sentient comic book, it was made by a Meta thing. The others on Team 2 are just stories of ink and text inside the Over Monitor. And yes, as bad as it sounds, Marvel is cited directly as a megaverse on the Over Monitor.

You cannot beat the Meta concept of ultimate goodness, who ignores the author and who also is immune to retcon, who tanks Creation level impacts without even a scratch on it, the beings that can reach into the real world here and rip out Grant's unwritten as of yet DC guidebook and toss it back in the Fiction for others to use as a guide on how to beat The Empty Hand when he comes around later. These characters are Meta. The Infinite Power of Imagination is just that...infinite.

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This infinite power of Imagination that has no limits to what it can do with physics, can unwrite the comic book story if it wants to. Mxyzptlk was undrawing DC comics here. This power of Imagination, is nothing compared to the 6th Dimensions power of Impossibility. Imps cant even understand it and cannot go there. The power of normal classic Monitors is this dimension above the 5th Dimension.

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The 6th Dimension is the monitor sphere. It is not Nil. The Monitor Sphere of the 6th Dimension is Impossiblity incarnate. It is where Impossible things can happen. It makes no sense. If you can try to make sense of it, you've misunderstood what it is about. There aren't any physics here. There is no time here. Nothing physical actually happens there. It is a place beyond Physics and understanding.

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Nil is above this dimension. Alden Quench and Neon die and fall out of it and land in the cosmic forge of the 6th Dimension. Nil is a higher entity than The Monitor Sphere.

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Again. Not opinions here. Not my therories. These are facts and data that is only countered with favoritism arguments. The infinite power of Imagination is overriden in authority by the 6th dimensions power of impossibility and I say so therefore it is regardless of what you say or do powers.

The 6th Dimensions Monitor Sphere powers of Impossibility is overriden by the authority of Meta Narrative control of the comic book itself, the powers only Nil Monitors have.

CAS and Mandrakk one shot kill those Nil Monitors. There are multi-tiers infinite layers and tiers above the 5th Dimension to the 6th Dimension. And the realm of Nil is even more absurd than the 6th Dimension in power.

That is where CAS and Mandrakk are at by comparison to everyone else and why they are the alphas. Nobody even comes close in DC or Marvel. This is an open and shut case. Mr. Mxyzptlk alone is enough to effortlessly remove Abraxus and Mikaboshi from existence.

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#63 Posted by AnnamalHouse (429 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone who uses a meta argument or even writer/editor argument for characters is talking nonsense.

Only person that could be used for that is a true TOAA character because he can be considered god of comics and are world where the writer is just a vessel to his thoughts at times.

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#64 Edited by MichaelJulius (1117 posts) - - Show Bio

@annamalhouse: Thankfully, none of this is even my opinion on the subject and it is taken right off interviews of the author. Death of the Author isn't a valid argument, which is now proceeded by Death of the Text Panel argument, which simply means "Nuh uh, I don't care what the text in the comic says, I dislike these characters so I believe otherwise and will fully ignore any factual information."

Both are nonsense arguments that only a select few take seriously. The Plot Bot has narrative control and was made by the sentient comic book page itself. It looms on a plane of existence where not even impossibility and infinite Imagination can contend with.

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#65 Edited by Itachus17 (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

CAS and Mxy lolstomp.

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#66 Posted by AnnamalHouse (429 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaeljulius:

Death of the author can indeed be a valid argument esp. when dealing with author statements outside of said comic book which alot of times can even contradict own stories or is just plain not how it was shown. Esp also when bringing up metaphorical statements or subjective narrative to try to match up things to the actual real world.

If you have to go to author statements outside of comic book to make a point, u already lost.

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#67 Edited by MichaelJulius (1117 posts) - - Show Bio

"I don't care what the author says" and "I dont care what the comic text says" are not valid arguments. This is their story, they own it. We just read it and don't actually get to dictate what the author has said or not said. That is called fanfiction when you disregard the author and make up your own version of events. When the author is fully ignored, it becomes subjective fantheory. When Death of the Author is used, that side never really wins. It is the last ditch effort to justify a personal opinion because they have no factual data left to offer.

@annamalhouse said:

@michaeljulius:

Death of the author can indeed be a valid argument esp. when dealing with author statements outside of said comic book which alot of times can even contradict own stories or is just plain not how it was shown. Esp also when bringing up metaphorical statements or subjective narrative to try to match up things to the actual real world.

If you have to go to author statements outside of comic book to make a point, u already lost.

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#68 Posted by AnnamalHouse (429 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaeljulius:

You misunderstanding my point I think, the actual text does matter along with whatever author put into said comic.

I'm talking about author statements outside said comic.

I don't need to the writer to tell me what he means or this or that. We can decipher that on are own just fine and if we can't then he did a shit show jump within said comic and then bringing up up "oh this is what I meant" even though it's not like in said comic should straight up be ignored.

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#69 Posted by Jmarshmallow (13919 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaeljulius: The motivation behind them doesn't matter. If they're on panel, then they're legitimate feats.

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#70 Posted by ThisIsAUsername (164 posts) - - Show Bio

Mxy solos

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#71 Edited by norsewinter (129 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaeljulius: @annamalhouse:

there is nothing morally wrong with going with either the death to the author or not death to the author route.

the problem is that people are not consistent about it. people in vsbattles only use death to the author when it suits their narrative.

if you are going to use every statement of a writer's statement, you have to actually believe all of it and never be selective. same for the other way around.

if you think author statements are bad, you should never use it. maybe not even writer notes on the back of a comic book as well.

otherwise, its a repeat of last year.

thats why spacebattles is far more professional because although their rules might be dumb, they are consistent about it.

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#72 Posted by BaneCapital (1157 posts) - - Show Bio

@jmarshmallow: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/michael-demiurgos-and-lucifer-morningstar-vs-thoug-2000188/

Mikaboshi and Abraxas are officially labelled as multiversal entities in Marvel just like Mxyzptlk is in DC. But none of them is as powerful as Spectre, Monitor, Fulcrum or Living Tribunal. The above thread might convince everyone that CAS could keep up with the other participants in this abstract entity tag team battle, even if Michael and Lucifer would be too much had they not been too inconsistent or vaguely described as a result of not being as active in the storylines of other characters as Mxy or Mandrakk.

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#73 Edited by MichaelJulius (1117 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm respectful of the DoTA argument, I think it is silly beyond belief though. As mentioned, we've come to a point in this debate where the location and traits of Nil and The Monitor Sphere are largely ignored. Statements like "the heat of 10 billion suns" somehow hurting the narrative of Superman in a Hyperstory that exists in a place beyond Imagination and Physics is somehow still widely used. It isn't interpretation when there are multiple scans in the same comic that state that realm is beyond Physics and nothing physical happens there. It is silly debates like these that are so warped, that I was absolutely shocked by them when I came back here a few weeks ago. All that does is show either favoritism or that user didnt read the comic they are debating.

I agree with the idea of listening to the author word for word and sticking to it. I am pro-Author when it comes to issues fans are having trouble with in debates. Writers arent perfect and editors often screw up the writers processes in finalized edits. Take Morrison's work in the early days, DC just wouldn't give the guy a break and his editors were changing some things in the final edits of the property that he didnt have control over. Is it his fault? No.

Scott Synder's DK: Metal series, for example, made a huge error with its editor when it said Classic Monitor was The Over Monitor from Final Crisis. Despite the first panel of Final Crisis's Beyond Story and the entire Multiversity saying the Over Monitor caused Classic Monitor and Anti Monitor to come to be, simply because Over Monitor named itself Over Void/Over Monitor. These are just errors in writing that go largely abused by editors. Vsbattles owners have lost all sense of logic lately. They put (and yes its funny) the angry video game nerd as a tier 0 recently.

@norsewinter said:

@michaeljulius: @annamalhouse:

there is nothing morally wrong with going with either the death to the author or not death to the author route.

the problem is that people are not consistent about it. people in vsbattles only use death to the author when it suits their narrative.

if you are going to use every statement of a writer's statement, you have to actually believe all of it and never be selective. same for the other way around.

if you think author statements are bad, you should never use it. maybe not even writer notes on the back of a comic book as well.

otherwise, its a repeat of last year.

thats why spacebattles is far more professional because although their rules might be dumb, they are consistent about it.

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#74 Edited by BaneCapital (1157 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaeljulius: Just for everyone to know, CAS is 1-B at vsbattles wiki while Mxy is high 2-A, Abraxas is at least 2-C and Chaos King is 2-C to high 1-B so CAS may be overrated but I don't think on such degree than he would be below the other three participants in this tag team battle as many people apparently claim according to their comments.

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#75 Edited by MichaelJulius (1117 posts) - - Show Bio

@banecapital: Yea. You can't listen to VsBattles as a trust worthy source. I mentioned above that The Empty Hand is rated absurdly low at 4-B/10-C. That is beyond silly.

The comic of Final Crisis and Superman Beyond goes out of its way to make sure you know that Nil and the Monitor Sphere is so far past Physics, that even the place retcons go (Limbo) cannot fully grasp it. Captain Allen learns from the Over Monitor how to become one with everything in DC-U and even then, he still feels the Cosmic Armor is the only chance they have. Literal infinite physics power was nothing to the Cosmic Armor and Mandrakk.

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In the new cosmology, The Monitor Sphere is explained more and is stated to be so far past infinite Imagination, that Imagination itself cannot understand it. It doesn't matter which continuity is being argued, the Cosmic Armor is the alpha of DC. It quite literally enveloped the entire infinite DC-Orrery. I feel like most readers forgot this. The Cosmic Armor is "bigger" than infinity and housed all of DC like a barrier.

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#76 Edited by BaneCapital (1157 posts) - - Show Bio