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#51 Posted by EcstaticGrace (6904 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_living_tribunal_24: I was just pointing out unrestricted she has the potential to clear. With only physical attacks I don't see it happening.

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#52 Posted by Supermanthor (10715 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: next you should do a thread regarding her travel speed

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#53 Edited by Noone1996 (10833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: No, but you know that he was massively amped in speed already post-Extremis though... He was already hypersonic+ in the classic times. Let alone Extremis.

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#54 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: next you should do a thread regarding her travel speed

I already know that is fast. There is really no need.

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#55 Posted by GilgameshStomps (82 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: from the last handbook I've seen isn't 9 and 10 the same? Or does he have something that puts him close to Pietro's level?

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#56 Posted by Supermanthor (10715 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: can you tell me how fast she is ?compared to the some of the fastest charters in marvel ?

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#57 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: No, but you know that he was massively amped in speed already post-Extremis though... He was already hypersonic+ in the classic times. Let alone Extremis.

  1. My understanding is after fear itself iron man had to give up the bleeding edge armor and no longer has extremis in him. I could be wrong.
  2. I haven't seen any feats from iron man that suggest his combat speed is that of a speedster which it would have to be if he were hypersonic.
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#58 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: from the last handbook I've seen isn't 9 and 10 the same? Or does he have something that puts him close to Pietro's level?

Speed demon is nowhere near as fast as current quicksilver. speed demon used to be slightly faster than him in the classic days but quicksilver has gotten a lot faster over the decades.

@jashro44: can you tell me how fast she is ?compared to the some of the fastest charters in marvel ?

You could just google her respect thread for feats:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/carol-danvers/4005-21561/forums/carol-danvers-aka-misscaptain-marvel-composite-res-1849142/

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#59 Posted by Supermanthor (10715 posts) - - Show Bio
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#60 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio
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#61 Posted by GilgameshStomps (82 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I'm way behind then. But I don't see her tagging before the 10 piece comes through, I'm hard pressed to believe. BUT, even if that's the case 10 is a no-go. So my vote is possible 9 but hardstop 10.

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#62 Edited by EcoBlitz (3770 posts) - - Show Bio

That OP image is just wrong

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#63 Posted by Mooty_Pass (9498 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at 9 or 10

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#64 Posted by Noone1996 (10833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:
  1. My understanding is after fear itself iron man had to give up the bleeding edge armor and no longer has extremis in him. I could be wrong.
  2. I haven't seen any feats from iron man that suggest his combat speed is that of a speedster which it would have to be if he were hypersonic.

Fair enough, he did lose Extremis (although he got it back during the Superior Iron Man run, but then died), but to say that you need to be hypersonic to be a speedster or vice versa is absurd. Also, I only brought up classic Iron Man catching bullets and missiles because his armor had been upgraded LOADS of times since that suit. It's been confirmed that the armor speeds up his reflexes and even the arc reactor does so. As he improves the armors, inevitably, the speed gets improved as well. When you have his third armor doing things like this:

He literally sees the mortar slow enough that after it's fired he is able to move in front of it before Thor is about to hit it (which is even more impressive since it's like a foot away from him):

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Howitzer mortars move at 3,500+ mph. Considering how casually he outspeeds this mortar shell though I'd say he's got reflexes FAR above that speed. Again, this is one of his earliest armors and this is actually BEFORE he adds the arc reactor battery into his body which amplifies his reactions and reflexes:

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I mean he also absolutely clowned Karnak during Civil War II and that guy is fast enough to cut bullets in half:

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#65 Posted by hurricanefunnel (2052 posts) - - Show Bio

ironically stops at 8

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#66 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: If your hypersonic you are a speedster. That is just a fact.

As for your scans just doing some quick research not all mortar shells move at 3500MPH. Some move at much slower speeds than that. Also I think we should be careful with the use of scans from the silver age. The silver age was a crazier time and the writing wasn't always logical. For example on the next page of the scan you posted namor tags iron man with a pellet gun. As for Karnak Black Panther has done the same to Karnak twice and he isn't hypersonic. I'm not doubting iron man is fast but hypersonic seems like a huge stretch.

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#67 Posted by Wrathofthebrad (816 posts) - - Show Bio

Carol stops at 10.

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#68 Posted by Noone1996 (10833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Hypersonic is only Mach 5+... How does that make you a speedster? You're also ignoring the point that he and his armor have upgraded many times and would inevitably be much faster.

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#69 Posted by reaverlation (25546 posts) - - Show Bio

there's some truly unimpressive speed feats from Carol from what I'm seeing if Mach 5 is deemed as impressive. Seems we will have another slowdison on our hands.

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#70 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Hypersonic is only Mach 5+... How does that make you a speedster? You're also ignoring the point that he and his armor have upgraded many times and would inevitably be much faster.

I consider anyone with speed above street level to be a speedster. Being a low level speedster is pretty much the next level from spider-man. Hypersonic speeds means your at the point where you can throw hundreds (or thousands I can't remember) of punches in a second. I don't picture iron man doing anything like that.

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#71 Posted by thebuckaronatr (1720 posts) - - Show Bio

Is Carol really that slow?

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#72 Edited by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

Is Carol really that slow?

I don't know. Honestly I kind of don't think marvel is as good at portraying speed as DC is. I am just genuinely curious how fast Carol is in terms of reflexes.

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#73 Posted by reaverlation (25546 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:
@noone1996 said:

@jashro44: Hypersonic is only Mach 5+... How does that make you a speedster? You're also ignoring the point that he and his armor have upgraded many times and would inevitably be much faster.

I consider anyone with speed above street level to be a speedster. Being a low level speedster is pretty much the next level from spider-man. Hypersonic speeds means your at the point where you can throw hundreds (or thousands I can't remember) of punches in a second. I don't picture iron man doing anything like that.

I suppose the term speedster means differently to people but makes sense since hundreds of hits in a fraction of a second (Speed Demon's feat) is between Mach 5-10 of a bit lower. There's a reason why there's a difference between travel and combat speed

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#74 Posted by Noone1996 (10833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: If you're going to measure it that way then I'm pretty sure Tony could punch or blast at extreme speed in a second:

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Here he displays the ability to fire off his repulsors so fast that there are afterimages and blur motion speeds. He destroys debris so fast at once that it doesn't even get a chance to hit the ground on time. I'm pretty sure that if he ever needed to he could hit at the speeds you describe. He just doesn't really do this in character. It tends to be when it's an emergency.

To be clear, I'm not saying that he did blast debris hundreds or thousands of times per second in the images above, but I'm pretty sure that shows that he possibly could if he ever wanted or needed to. Objects that free fall into our atmosphere crash at re-entry speeds which is mach 25 and scan 4 (posted above) isn't the only time he's ever perceived, kept up with, and reacted to re-entry speed:

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All of the scans I've posted in this reply are pre-Extremis.

Like I said before, his armors only get faster, stronger, and more durable with each upgrade.

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#75 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: Skimming through the scans quickly none of them seem to suggest he can throw hundreds or thousands of punches in a second. There cool and all but street levelers have been drawn the same way. As for reacting to reentry speeds those objects being large makes them easier to track. And in the 4th scan you posted iron man confirms he is moving at the speed of thought, which again is very impressive, but its not faster than wolverine or spider-man.

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#76 Posted by Michaelbn (1918 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil will pressure point her before she realize what is happening.

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#77 Edited by Noone1996 (10833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I did say in my post he wasn't blasting at hundreds/thousands of times in those scans, but he doesn't ever do that in character anyway. Even in the scans I posted he was only moving at speeds faster than debris could fall to save people. He wasn't showing any sign of straining, so the point is if he wanted to go faster I have no doubt that he could have. Like I said though, the situation doesn't ever call for him to blast or punch one hundred times in a second. Also, moving as fast as Stark can think about it is more impressive than the speed of thought considering the fact that he thinks a lot faster than normal people.

Them being large doesn't change the fact that he managed to keep up with such high speeds and didn't miss when he tried touching it. If Galactus punched a character at mach 25 speeds you wouldn't say, "they only dodged that because he's big and easy to see". That makes no sense and it doesn't negate the speed. Or if Ego was flying through the galaxy at FTL speeds and the Silver Surfer managed to perceive, follow, and land on top of him would you say, "he's moon sized so that's not impressive at all"? Is Sentry too physically large for this feat to be impressive too?

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I mean he only perceives, catches up to him, and then grabs and tosses him into the ground. I'm sure you'll shrug this off as "unquantifiable" even though Sentry was in a rush and it was an emergency.

Is the Punisher Robot (which seems to be the size of Wolverine) too big for this feat to be impressive?

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This one, however, is not so unquantifiable as the Punisher Robot flies from the moon to Earth in basically 1-2 pages, yet Stark manages to keep track of the robot and even tags it with tractor beams as it travels at clear massively hypersonic speeds.

I don't even know why we're using that "hundreds of blows" as a measuring stick anyway. Is Speed Demon himself not the one that is a Spider-Man villain? Is he not a guy that Peter regularly avoids and tags? I'm sure he struggles to, but you can lowball him as not being a "speedster" the same way that you're doing with Iron Man. "HERP SPIDURMAN TAG HIM EVEN THO HE PUNCH HUNDREDS OF TYMES IN SECOND". The idea that Iron Man cannot react to hypersonic speeds or that a speedster only needs to be mach 5 in order to be classified as one is just silly.

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#78 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996:

I did say in my post he wasn't blasting at hundreds/thousands of times in those scans, but he doesn't ever do that in character anyway. Even in the scans I posted he was only moving at speeds faster than debris could fall to save people. He wasn't showing any sign of straining, so the point is if he wanted to go faster I have no doubt that he could have. Like I said though, the situation doesn't ever call for him to blast or punch one hundred times in a second. Also, moving as fast as Stark can think about it is more impressive than the speed of thought considering the fact that he thinks a lot faster than normal people.

None of the scans you posted come close to suggesting iron man can throw hundreds or thousands of punches in a second.

Them being large doesn't change the fact that he managed to keep up with such high speeds and didn't miss when he tried touching it. If Galactus punched a character at mach 25 speeds you wouldn't say, "they only dodged that because he's big and easy to see". That makes no sense and it doesn't negate the speed. Or if Ego was flying through the galaxy at FTL speeds and the Silver Surfer managed to perceive, follow, and land on top of him would you say, "he's moon sized so that's not impressive at all"? Is Sentry too physically large for this feat to be impressive too?

Dodging a large strike and intercepting a large object are not the same thing so your galactus example would show combat speed. Even a planet sized object moving at faster than light speeds would take high operational speed to track at the very least. Not sure if the Surfer feat you specified would take high reflexes because it depends how surfer lands or intercepts Ego but it does at least show the ability to perceive faster than light objects which is a form of operational speed. However your scans with iron man do not show high operational speed. Regular people can track meteors through the atmosphere for brief moments.

What iron man is doing in the scans you posted is he is using his travel speed to fly up to them or in front of them and grab onto the objects. That doesn't even show combat reflexes at all. If Iron Man had mach 25 reflexes like your trying to imply he would never get shot with arrows:

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He wouldn't struggle with street levelers and comment on difficulty tagging them:

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And quite frankly if he were able to fight at speeds of mach 25-30 we would probably see feats like this from iron man:

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These feats aren't even mach 25....

Iron man is fast. But saying he has combat speed at mach 25-30 speeds is just pure wank.

I mean he only perceives, catches up to him, and then grabs and tosses him into the ground. I'm sure you'll shrug this off as "unquantifiable" even though Sentry was in a rush and it was an emergency.

Yes I will call it unquantifiable because it is. We've done this debate so many times but it seems like you just don't get it. I don't know maybe you just don't want to listen to me. So maybe its best you read this thread where the concept is explained quite clearly:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/the-speed-of-thor-1849208/

This isn't a hard concept to understand.

This one, however, is not so unquantifiable as the Punisher Robot flies from the moon to Earth in basically 1-2 pages, yet Stark manages to keep track of the robot and even tags it with tractor beams as it travels at clear massively hypersonic speeds.

Its also flying in a straight line.

I don't even know why we're using that "hundreds of blows" as a measuring stick anyway. Is Speed Demon himself not the one that is a Spider-Man villain? Is he not a guy that Peter regularly avoids and tags? I'm sure he struggles to, but you can lowball him as not being a "speedster" the same way that you're doing with Iron Man. "HERP SPIDURMAN TAG HIM EVEN THO HE PUNCH HUNDREDS OF TYMES IN SECOND".

Speed demon clearly has speed feats to be considered a speedster. I don't even know what your talking about.

The idea that Iron Man cannot react to hypersonic speeds or that a speedster only needs to be mach 5 in order to be classified as one is just silly.

So what do you define as a speedster than?

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#79 Posted by SupremeGeneration (10641 posts) - - Show Bio
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#80 Posted by Doctor__Hanlon (303 posts) - - Show Bio

7 because of teleportation, I'd say!

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#81 Posted by reaverlation (25546 posts) - - Show Bio
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#82 Posted by destinyman75 (13349 posts) - - Show Bio

I think she can hang with beast in conbat speed if I remember correctly. Spiderman however is a bit much.

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#83 Posted by blackpantherisb (6641 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Iron Man should be much much higher.

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#84 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio
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#85 Posted by AlphaQ (5927 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996:Just on the feat where Iron Man jumps from a falling satellite, it should be noted that because Iron Man is already perched on the satellite as it is falling it means that his frame of reference is already adjusted for the satellite's motion. If I'm in an elevator moving upwards at ten miles an hour and jump so that I would've been moving upwards at ten miles an hour on a regular floor then I would be moving from a stationary frame of reference at twenty miles an hour, but from the frame of reference of the elevator floor I am only moving at ten miles an hour. If Kid Flash is a hundred miles per hour slower than the Flash and running right behind him, he could actually shoot him with a gun because the bullets would have roughly Kid Flash's speed plus their own speed. In that feat the satellite isn't actually moving that fast from Iron Man's frame of reference because he is already falling at the same speed as he is perched on the satellite, so when he kicks off it he accelerates towards Earth and the satellite debris decelerates (or at least its acceleration decreases momentarily), so it is only Iron Man reacting to the speed differential he created. Now, the spread of the debris might be different as it moves to the side, I don't really know about that.

Also, thanks for covering me on that point about Doomsday's nuke feat being less impressive in a kinetic sense, I meant to come back to that.

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#86 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq said:

@noone1996:Just on the feat where Iron Man jumps from a falling satellite, it should be noted that because Iron Man is already perched on the satellite as it is falling it means that his frame of reference is already adjusted for the satellite's motion. If I'm in an elevator moving upwards at ten miles an hour and jump so that I would've been moving upwards at ten miles an hour on a regular floor then I would be moving from a stationary frame of reference at twenty miles an hour, but from the frame of reference of the elevator floor I am only moving at ten miles an hour. If Kid Flash is a hundred miles per hour slower than the Flash and running right behind him, he could actually shoot him with a gun because the bullets would have roughly Kid Flash's speed plus their own speed. In that feat the satellite isn't actually moving that fast from Iron Man's frame of reference because he is already falling at the same speed as he is perched on the satellite, so when he kicks off it he accelerates towards Earth and the satellite debris decelerates (or at least its acceleration decreases momentarily), so it is only Iron Man reacting to the speed differential he created. Now, the spread of the debris might be different as it moves to the side, I don't really know about that.

Also, thanks for covering me on that point about Doomsday's nuke feat being less impressive in a kinetic sense, I meant to come back to that.

This was well put.

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#87 Posted by blackpantherisb (6641 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Come on mate. He’s also way above Spider-Man, he can react to lightning, consistently outpace explosions, perform complex maneuvers inside of milliseconds, and speed blitz satellites moving at re-entry speeds. He’s massively hypersonic, the idea that Spider-Man is faster is just outright laughable.

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#88 Posted by AlphaQ (5927 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Thanks. It's still pretty crazy agility on Iron Man's part that he can perfectly leap from a falling satellite, turn and react to the pieces. Kinda reminds me of Saitama jumping back to a specific spot on Earth, some unbelievable precision that seems to come out of nowhere.

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#89 Posted by HellionVulcan (6879 posts) - - Show Bio

7 and up are going to be a problem since i don't think she has many quantifiable combat speed feats.

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#90 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Come on mate. He’s also way above Spider-Man, he can react to lightning, consistently outpace explosions, perform complex maneuvers inside of milliseconds, and speed blitz satellites moving at re-entry speeds. He’s massively hypersonic, the idea that Spider-Man is faster is just outright laughable.

Reacting to lightning in comics is pretty common. Spider-man literally does that all the time with electro. Outpacing explosions is a peak human feat unless you mean outrunning explosions in which case your talking about travel speed. You can't "speed blitz satellites".....Speed blitzing is attacking someone before they react.

As for complex maneuvers in miliseconds I am not sure what you mean by that or what your talking about specifically.

@alphaq said:

@jashro44: Thanks. It's still pretty crazy agility on Iron Man's part that he can perfectly leap from a falling satellite, turn and react to the pieces. Kinda reminds me of Saitama jumping back to a specific spot on Earth, some unbelievable precision that seems to come out of nowhere.

This is also a really good point. And no problem.

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#91 Edited by Noone1996 (10833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

None of the scans you posted come close to suggesting iron man can throw hundreds or thousands of punches in a second.

Scan 1: Iron Man blasts over 34 spots on the avalanche nearly at the same time as the next since the light from the beam is still visible and fresh. Not moving nearly as fast as he can. Only moving as fast as he needs to in order outspeed the debris falling. Scan 2: Blasts at falling debris 7 times at once. Again, not moving nearly as fast as he can. Only moving as fast as he needs to in order to outspeed debris falling. Scan 3: Blasts at falling debris 6 times at once. Again, not moving nearly as fast as he can. Only moving as fast as he needs to in order to outspeed debris falling. Scan 4: Blasts satellite debris 8-9 times at the same time as the next since the explosions from the blast are still visible and have not dissipated yet. Again, not moving nearly as fast as he can. Only moving as fast as he can think which is basically like a super computer.

Ultimately, he's moving so fast and tagging the debris in such a fluid motion that everything seemingly is hit at the same time. There is so little time in between the intervals of him blasting the next part, that it appears like he did it all at the same time. He showed no signs of strain or exhaustion which means he wasn't pushing himself to the limit. He could go much faster if necessary.

If Iron Man ever came across satellite debris or meteorites that fell into Earth's atmosphere and they broke up into hundreds or thousands of pieces, I have no doubt that he'd do the same thing that he did in all the images I posted. Although I guess I do agree it'd take a lot longer than 1 second to accomplish that.

Dodging a large strike and intercepting a large object are not the same thing so your galactus example would show combat speed. Even a planet sized object moving at faster than light speeds would take high operational speed to track at the very least. Not sure if the Surfer feat you specified would take high reflexes because it depends how surfer lands or intercepts Ego but it does at least show the ability to perceive faster than light objects which is a form of operational speed. However your scans with iron man do not show high operational speed. Regular people can track meteors through the atmosphere for brief moments.

Those examples are the exact same thing as what you are claiming about re-entry... There's literally no difference... They are large objects moving at above mach 5. Distance is a huge factor for when people are able to see objects entering the atmosphere. There is so much distance in between the ground level of the Earth and the sky that you could see something coming from far away even if it was moving at massively hypersonic speeds. I don't see how this takes away from the feat considering Iron Man catches and flies up to it to touch it. He doesn't watch it from his porch.

What iron man is doing in the scans you posted is he is using his travel speed to fly up to them or in front of them and grab onto the objects. That doesn't even show combat reflexes at all.

What about the faster than thought scan? He wasn't using his travel speed anymore in that instance. He was floating in air and not moving which means a mach 25 satellite and its debris was falling towards him and he blasted it into smitherines. He also stopped another object coming from space and he didn't use his travel speed to fly right next to it here either:

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He flew right in front of it and then tagged it while just floating in air again.

It likely went a lot faster than re-entry speed too considering the fact that it was launched from the moon to Earth within minutes. Pretty sure it took about 10-11 pages to reach Earth. So this would be much different than just using travel speed.

If Iron Man had mach 25 reflexes like your trying to imply he would never get shot with arrows:

Oh you mean arrows he doesn't think will ever hurt him? Why would you dodge something that cannot hurt you? That's like saying Iron Man cannot avoid bullets because he lets himself get hit by bullets... He has arrow timed more than enough times.

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When he knows to avoid them, he does pretty well for himself:

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He wouldn't struggle with street levelers and comment on difficulty tagging them:

When Iron Man ISN'T written by somebody that is trying to wank street levelers at the expense of Stark's suits, he doesn't have much issues with these slow pokes:

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What's really funny about scan 1, 2, 3 and 5 is that they aren't instances where Stark is piloting the armor. Someone far less experienced and skilled in the suit was using it. Scan 2 shows Gambit using an Iron Man armor, which is confirmed to amp speed, and he gets effortlessly tagged by Rhodey (it's stated that the only reason Iron Man even had trouble tagging Gambit is because it was just an empty armor probably running on A.I.). Scan 3 and 5 are Frank Castle who is nowhere near as good in the armor as Tony. The rest shows Tony effortlessly tagging Spider-Man.

And you know what? I could post even more impressive ones like him tagging a speeding Quicksilver or Spectrum. He regularly deals with the Mandarin who is a bullet timer, can slow down time, teleport, and who has a speed ring called "spin" which amplifies his speed to "Quicksilver level speed" according to Tony.

And quite frankly if he were able to fight at speeds of mach 25-30 we would probably see feats like this from iron man:

Iron man is fast. But saying he has combat speed at mach 25-30 speeds is just pure wank.

The funniest part here is that I've been limiting the feats I post to non-Extremis ones, but it seems like you actually think he's not that fast even with Extremis which amped his non-armored body to superhuman levels. With Extremis he was literally perceiving, reacting to, and armoring up to point blank explosions before the heat could even reach him. He was isolating trillions of signals within picoseconds. I'd really like to see any street leveler doing something like that. But the idea that he was slower than a street leveler and then Extremis turned him into a speed savant is absurd.

Yes I will call it unquantifiable because it is. We've done this debate so many times but it seems like you just don't get it. I don't know maybe you just don't want to listen to me. So maybe its best you read this thread where the concept is explained quite clearly:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/the-speed-of-thor-1849208/

This isn't a hard concept to understand.

It's not that I don't understand, it's that I disagree with you and that you're wrong. By saying that this feat is unquantifiable you are implying that it's not impressive, but I'd really like to see a street leveler do what Iron Man did with Sentry right there. You'd probably ignorantly say, "it's possible Spider-Man actually could replicate the feat since we don't know exactly how fast he's flying", but if you understood the context of the story you'd actually know that it'd be really silly to assume he was going less than hypersonic because of the desperation of the circumstances. See, this is why your logic with scaling falls to pieces. You COMPLETELY ignore context. Sentry was in an immense rush to find Cranio and fix the problem with the Confluctor because the VOID might come back and kill everybody. You think he was only flying at a brisk 300 mph when he was dealing with that kind of threat level? You think with that threat he's going to just fly at mach 2 or 3? It's borderline dishonest to an intellectual argument or from a logical standpoint to just shrug this context off... That's not even taking into consideration the fact that Sentry would have had to have been flying TREMENDOUSLY fast in order to instantly break out from a 6 mile deep underground bunker DESIGNED by Stark to contain him. The context alone is enough to prove it's a good feat, but that bunker part is just the icing on the cake.

Its also flying in a straight line.

Doesn't matter. Do you know what kind of speed it takes to travel that quickly from the moon to Earth? The fact that his boot jets could catch him up close enough to even see the Punisher Robot while it's traveling at that level of speed would be enough, but he was actually keeping a really good pace. If he wasn't worried about his power running out, he would have been fine. Not only that, but the bot is actually tagged by Stark's equipment (tractor beam) while traveling at massively hypersonic speeds (MHS is mach 100+). Plus, the bot had a head start. But yeah, Stark is less than hypersonic. Sure.

Speed demon clearly has speed feats to be considered a speedster. I don't even know what your talking about.

I'm saying you clearly came up with this ridiculous idea of someone being a "speedster" if they can throw hundreds of punches in a second based on what Speed Demon has accomplished, but now I'm saying why can't I just shrug him off the same way you did with Karnak failing to tag Iron Man? This guy is a Spider-Man villain and has been both tagged AND avoided by the wall crawler. Several times too, I'm sure. In New Thunderbolts 14 alone he is constantly seen dodging, avoiding, and tagging Speed Demon, yet this guy is your "speedster" measuring stick:

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The only reason he even ultimately comes out on top or tags him is due to team work from Atlas and Radioactive Man.

So what good is the "hundreds of blows in a fraction of a second" measurement of a "hypersonic speedster" is it if they still struggle with Spider-Man? I've got far more scans of Iron Man tagging Spider-Man than you do of him failing to, so by this silly definition of a "speedster" Iron Man is far above him, right?

So what do you define as a speedster than?

Someone that's massively hypersonic and who consistently abuses or at least consistently takes advantage of their speed. Someone like Quicksilver, Spectrum, Silver Surfer, Sentry, etc. You have to be WAY faster than mach 5 to be a speedster. Iron Man would not fit that description because he doesn't consistently use his speed. He usually just tanks hits because he knows he can take them. If he doesn't, he attempts to dodge or parry with force-fields. Plus he's not as fast as them.

The whole point of all of this is that you are basically saying, "Stark can't possibly have mach 5 reactions because that's bad writing. He'd have to be a SPEEDSTER to do that." Then you proceed to shrug off, nitpick, and ignore everything I post because of your preconceived notions of what speed tier Iron Man "should" be in because you personally don't view him as a speedster or mach 5. The problem is, a "speedster" would be MUCH faster than that. So you cannot just shrug off every mach 5 feat a character has and say, "that's not a valid feat because that character isn't a speedster".

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#92 Posted by Kevd4wg (11838 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: Nice post, but I'm curious as to why you included Surfer as a speedster when you said

who consistently abuses or at least consistently takes advantage of their speed

Surfer is certainly meant to be fast as shown time and time again, but he's a super incompetent fighter and almost never abuses or really even uses his speed in combat.

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#93 Posted by Noone1996 (10833 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq: Yeah you bring up good points. It's like if I'm in an airplane moving 500 mph and we crash into another airplane moving at similar speeds. That doesn't necessarily mean that the guy flying the plane can tag or react to a 500 mph object. Makes sense. No problem on the DCEU Doomsday thing.

@alphaq said: Thanks. It's still pretty crazy agility on Iron Man's part that he can perfectly leap from a falling satellite, turn and react to the pieces. Kinda reminds me of Saitama jumping back to a specific spot on Earth, some unbelievable precision that seems to come out of nowhere.

So you agree that the "as fast as I can think about it" satellite tagging feat is basically a reaction/combat speed feat? Because he isn't moving with the satellite at the same speed anymore at that point.

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#94 Posted by Noone1996 (10833 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: I guess he's not that consistent. I suppose I only threw him in there so I didn't have a shortage in my list of speedster names. I'm sure there are more, but those were fast characters off the top of my head.

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#95 Posted by AlphaQ (5927 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996:

So you agree that the "as fast as I can think about it" satellite tagging feat is basically a reaction/combat speed feat? Because he isn't moving with the satellite at the same speed anymore at that point.

I agree that it is a very impressive agility, perception, reaction and combat speed feat, also fighting at the speed of superhumanly enhanced though is no joke, there is no question there.

He isn't moving at the same speed, but when he kicks off from the satellite he is increasing his own momentum and decreasing the momentum of the satellite, but from his frame of reference only the differences in speed between his descent and the satellite's is visible. When he was perched on the satellite the satellite was stationary from his frame of reference, when he jumped off is when the satellite began to move, but only because of his kick. It gets complicated if you want to factor in things like the breaking up of the satellite and air pressure, which is stuff well beyond my knowledge. If Iron Man had simply let go of the satellite he would've fallen at basically the same speed, same way you can jump into the air in a train without moving backwards relative to the train, the satellite would've remained stationary from his FoR. Basically, it doesn't really matter how fast the satellite was falling because Iron Man's kick is what created the difference in momentum that caused the satellite to move in his FoR. It could've been a much slower or faster projectile but in principle I don't think it would matter, he would still be capable of the same maneuver depending on his strength.

If Iron Man was stationary and the satellite debris was coming down it would look much, much faster from his frame of reference. What is interesting is the spread of the debris, how fast they came apart, that might still be very fast from his frame of reference.

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#96 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996:

Scan 1: Iron Man blasts over 34 spots on the avalanche nearly at the same time as the next since the light from the beam is still visible and fresh. Not moving nearly as fast as he can. Only moving as fast as he needs to in order outspeed the debris falling.

  1. This is still far off from throwing hundreds or thousands of punches in a second.
  2. He wouldn't have to blast all those rocks in one second to do what he is doing in that scan. If each panel is a second he blasting 20 boulders in one second.

Scan 2: Blasts at falling debris 7 times at once. Again, not moving nearly as fast as he can. Only moving as fast as he needs to in order to outspeed debris falling. Scan 3: Blasts at falling debris 6 times at once. Again, not moving nearly as fast as he can. Only moving as fast as he needs to in order to outspeed debris falling.Scan 4: Blasts satellite debris 8-9 times at the same time as the next since the explosions from the blast are still visible and have not dissipated yet. Again, not moving nearly as fast as he can. Only moving as fast as he can think which is basically like a super computer.

Pretty far off from hundreds or thousands. I acknowledged iron man was fast. Its just very far off from throwing hundreds or thousands of punches in a second. Its no different than ghost doing this other than iron man firing 3-4 more extra shots:

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Ultimately, he's moving so fast and tagging the debris in such a fluid motion that everything seemingly is hit at the same time. There is so little time in between the intervals of him blasting the next part, that it appears like he did it all at the same time. He showed no signs of strain or exhaustion which means he wasn't pushing himself to the limit. He could go much faster if necessary.

That is still mostly street level speed.

If Iron Man ever came across satellite debris or meteorites that fell into Earth's atmosphere and they broke up into hundreds or thousands of pieces, I have no doubt that he'd do the same thing that he did in all the images I posted. Although I guess I do agree it'd take a lot longer than 1 second to accomplish that.

That's not the only way iron man be depicted as throwing hundreds of punches in a second. Speed demon did it easily enough against spider-man.

If you want to convince me iron man can throw hundreds of punches in a second just post a scan of him doing that. Or throwing hundreds of strikes in a second.

Those examples are the exact same thing as what you are claiming about re-entry... There's literally no difference... They are large objects moving at above mach 5. Distance is a huge factor for when people are able to see objects entering the atmosphere. There is so much distance in between the ground level of the Earth and the sky that you could see something coming from far away even if it was moving at massively hypersonic speeds. I don't see how this takes away from the feat considering Iron Man catches and flies up to it to touch it. He doesn't watch it from his porch.

AlphaQ explained this.

What about the faster than thought scan? He wasn't using his travel speed anymore in that instance. He was floating in air and not moving which means a mach 25 satellite and its debris was falling towards him and he blasted it into smitherines.

The scan debunks itself. Iron man says he is moving at the speed of thought.

He also stopped another object coming from space and he didn't use his travel speed to fly right next to it here either:

It likely went a lot faster than re-entry speed too considering the fact that it was launched from the moon to Earth within minutes. Pretty sure it took about 10-11 pages to reach Earth. So this would be much different than just using travel speed.It likely went a lot faster than re-entry speed too considering the fact that it was launched from the moon to Earth within minutes. Pretty sure it took about 10-11 pages to reach Earth. So this would be much different than just using travel speed.

Not familiar with this comic but at a glance it looks like iron man is already intercepting its path and waiting for it.

Oh you mean arrows he doesn't think will ever hurt him? Why would you dodge something that cannot hurt you? That's like saying Iron Man cannot avoid bullets because he lets himself get hit by bullets... He has arrow timed more than enough times.

In one scan I posted iron man was aware hawkeye's arrows were a threat to him. He also knew that super adaptoid's arrows were a threat to him. Yet he didn't dodge them. He even says he couldn't dodge the super adatpoid's arrow.

What's really funny about scan 1, 2, 3 and 5 is that they aren't instances where Stark is piloting the armor. Someone far less experienced and skilled in the suit was using it. Scan 2 shows Gambit using an Iron Man armor, which is confirmed to amp speed, and he gets effortlessly tagged by Rhodey (it's stated that the only reason Iron Man even had trouble tagging Gambit is because it was just an empty armor probably running on A.I.). Scan 3 and 5 are Frank Castle who is nowhere near as good in the armor as Tony. The rest shows Tony effortlessly tagging Spider-Man.

Let me address the scans in order. But before I do that I want to point out characters have good days and bad days so iron man tagging street levelers doesn't erase instances of them dodging him. I can show instances of spider-man struggling with wolverine's speed and I can show instances of him effortlessly dodging wolverine.

  1. Norman says he is putting his uni-beam in tracking mode. This isn't the result of speed.
  2. I can't really read the dialogue on scan two (the text is to small and I can't zoom in) but it looks like Rhody used an area of effect attack.
  3. I mean this shows Frank in his war machine armor can react to taskmaster....I don't see how this proves iron man is hypersonic? Or takes away from the fact that Tony himself had issues tagging taskmaster in hand to hand? Frank isn't as experienced as Tony when piloting the armor but he doesn't need to be to grab taskmasters sword and punch him in the face. He is probably a better hand to hand fighter and more physically imposing out of armor than Tony. This could just be a case of Frank himself reacting to taskmaster. Even though Frank got his ass kicked during the deadpool vs punisher series by taskmaster he did dodge, block, and land a hit on taskmaster. So its not surprising Frank could do that with the iron man armor.
  4. Iron man grabbed him while he was beating up wolverine, after Logan stabbed him. Peter didn't make an effort to dodge iron man since he was distracted.
  5. Frank has shot spider-man without the iron man armor.
  6. The first panel it actually looks like spider-man dodges a repulsor blast. He tags Peter in the second panel but this isn't an example of iron man showing he can effortlessly tag spider-man. It just shows Tony can in fact tag him but this scan would overall show that Tony isn't hypersonic since spider-man did dodge an attack.
  7. This scan is legit.

The funniest part here is that I've been limiting the feats I post to non-Extremis ones, but it seems like you actually think he's not that fast even with Extremis which amped his non-armored body to superhuman levels. With Extremis he was literally perceiving, reacting to, and armoring up to point blank explosions before the heat could even reach him. He was isolating trillions of signals within picoseconds. I'd really like to see any street leveler doing something like that. But the idea that he was slower than a street leveler and then Extremis turned him into a speed savant is absurd.

I don't think extremis is iron man is hypersonic in combat speed. The feats you referenced for extremis iron man are feats of him operating his armor. Its not surprising iron man with his extremis armor can isolate a signal in a picosecond since his brain became a computer basically. He doesn't fight at those speeds.

It's not that I don't understand, it's that I disagree with you and that you're wrong. By saying that this feat is unquantifiable you are implying that it's not impressive, but I'd really like to see a street leveler do what Iron Man did with Sentry right there. You'd probably ignorantly say, "it's possible Spider-Man actually could replicate the feat since we don't know exactly how fast he's flying", but if you understood the context of the story you'd actually know that it'd be really silly to assume he was going less than hypersonic because of the desperation of the circumstances. See, this is why your logic with scaling falls to pieces. You COMPLETELY ignore context. Sentry was in an immense rush to find Cranio and fix the problem with the Confluctor because the VOID might come back and kill everybody. You think he was only flying at a brisk 300 mph when he was dealing with that kind of threat level? You think with that threat he's going to just fly at mach 2 or 3? It's borderline dishonest to an intellectual argument or from a logical standpoint to just shrug this context off... That's not even taking into consideration the fact that Sentry would have had to have been flying TREMENDOUSLY fast in order to instantly break out from a 6 mile deep underground bunker DESIGNED by Stark to contain him. The context alone is enough to prove it's a good feat, but that bunker part is just the icing on the cake.

We've seen this before. Spider-man outran firelord during there fight.

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The context is firelord wants to kill spider-man. He has no reason to not move at his full speed. Its not like Tom defalco is ignorant as to how fast firelord can travel. He even showed in amazing spider-man 269 firelord is capable of traveling far faster than light. He obviously doesn't think spider-man can run or travel faster than light. He just didn't have firelord chase spider-man at speed greater than light because plot.

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Yes given the context of the circumstances sentry should be moving at top speeds but I don't know if that is what Lemire intended in that scene. Writers ignore basic logic and common sense when there plot needs it.

I could except sentry was moving faster than sound since he ripped up the ground when he flew up. I question if he was moving as fast as he was capable because plot reasons. Sentry was in a rush but flying near his top speeds would cause massive damage to the city. So that is a possible reason for sentry to show restraint if you really need one.

Doesn't matter. Do you know what kind of speed it takes to travel that quickly from the moon to Earth? The fact that his boot jets could catch him up close enough to even see the Punisher Robot while it's traveling at that level of speed would be enough, but he was actually keeping a really good pace. If he wasn't worried about his power running out, he would have been fine. Not only that, but the bot is actually tagged by Stark's equipment (tractor beam) while traveling at massively hypersonic speeds (MHS is mach 100+). But yeah, Stark is less than hypersonic. Sure.

  1. When I say iron man is less than hypersonic I am talking about in terms of combat reflexes. Not travel speed.
  2. This comes down to what AlphaQ said. They were traveling at similar speeds, and iron man used his tractor beams to caught up and fired them in a straight line.

I'm saying you clearly came up with this ridiculous idea of someone being a "speedster" if they can throw hundreds of punches in a second based on what Speed Demon has accomplished, but now I'm saying why can't I just shrug him off the same way you did with Karnak failing to tag Iron Man? This guy is a Spider-Man villain and has been both tagged AND avoided by the wall crawler. Several times too, I'm sure. In New Thunderbolts 14 alone he is constantly seen dodging, avoiding, and tagging Speed Demon, yet this guy is your "speedster" measuring stick:

So what good is the "hundreds of blows in a fraction of a second" measurement of a "hypersonic speedster" is it if they still struggle with Spider-Man? I've got far more scans of Iron Man tagging Spider-Man than you do of him failing to, so by this silly definition of a "speedster" Iron Man is far above him, right?

This is why I said speed demon is the next step up from spider-man. Spider-man was using his spider-sense, agility, leaping, and webs in that fight. He has other instances of doing similar to speed demon like when he was possessed by mister negative but I still wouldn't say he is as fast speed demon.

Regardless speed demon is my bare minimum for being a speedster. I never tried to argue he was so fast someone like spider-man can't react to him at all. Speed demon was moving so fast in that fight that he was actually turning the sand into glass so that isn't a low showing for speed demon, its just a good showing for spider-man. We know how fast speed demon was moving so we can actually quantify that feat.

Your the one that is trying to argue iron man having mach 25-30 combat speed. I'm not trying to argue speed demon being that fast. He's been tagged and reacted to by street levelers, and he is suppose to be a spider-man villain. So I don't see the problem with spider-man reacting to speed demon.

Someone that's massively hypersonic and who consistently abuses or at least consistently takes advantage of their speed. Someone like Quicksilver, Spectrum, Silver Surfer, Sentry, etc. You have to be WAY faster than mach 5 to be a speedster. Iron Man would not fit that description because he doesn't consistently use his speed. He usually just tanks hits because he knows he can take them. If he doesn't, he attempts to dodge or parry with force-fields. Plus he's not as fast as them.

The whole point of all of this is that you are basically saying, "Stark can't possibly have mach 5 reactions because that's bad writing. He'd have to be a SPEEDSTER to do that." Then you proceed to shrug off, nitpick, and ignore everything I post because of your preconceived notions of what speed tier Iron Man "should" be in because you personally don't view him as a speedster or mach 5. The problem is, a "speedster" would be MUCH faster than that. So you cannot just shrug off every mach 5 feat a character has and say, "that's not a valid feat because that character isn't a speedster".

Actually the only scan I said is PIS is the sentry scan. Sentry has flown faster than light in the past. I don't think sentry was flying anywhere near those speeds in that instance.

I explained my reasons for the other feats. Iron man reacting to mach 5 is different than being able to react to mach 25 or actually fighting at mach 5 speeds. I'm saying iron man isn't a speedster because he doesn't have feats like speed demon who is my bare minimum for being a speedster.

I could maybe except iron man catching a mach 5 projectile. I don't think you've shown that. You brought up iron man catching a mortar shell but as I showed not all mortar shells move that fast.

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#97 Posted by Marishtar (2012 posts) - - Show Bio

9 or 10

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#98 Posted by Kevd4wg (11838 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

The scan debunks itself. Iron man says he is moving at the speed of thought.

Why is that a debunk? Sure we've seen plenty of street levelers refer to themselves as moving at the speed of thought, as with mid tiers, and high tiers as well, but IIRC aren't there a few clear cut cases of the speed of thought being like FTL plus in Marvel? From what I've read it just seems to be a vague term that doesn't really mean anything other then "fast" or sometimes a showing of like instinct or skill.

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#99 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg said:

@jashro44:

The scan debunks itself. Iron man says he is moving at the speed of thought.

Why is that a debunk? Sure we've seen plenty of street levelers refer to themselves as moving at the speed of thought, as with mid tiers, and high tiers as well, but IIRC aren't there a few clear cut cases of the speed of thought being like FTL plus in Marvel? From what I've read it just seems to be a vague term that doesn't really mean anything other then "fast" or sometimes a showing of like instinct or skill.

There are instances where some writers have used the speed of thought to be faster than light. However we can actually quantify the speed of thought. According to this site the decision for a sprinter to start running is 150 miliseconds. I'd just dismiss stuff like flash failing to move at the speed of thought as WIS.

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#100 Posted by Kevd4wg (11838 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Yeah, but we've seen Marvel use it for so many different speeds, shouldn't it just kinda be a nothing burger? Especially since something like the Iron Man armor speeds up the speed of thought for Tony. I guess you can quantify it and say anything above it is WIS, but I honestly think that ever instance of the "speed of thought" is WIS, it's just used because it sounds cool.