Carl Johnson (CJ) vs Jason Bourne

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Zazam

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Years after taking over most of San Andreas, Carl Johnson is contacted by Mike Toreno with one last little favor -- assassinate rogue agent Jason Bourne.

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Bourne is in hiding in Los Santos, and has been manipulated by Toreno into attacking Carl's businesses, under the impression that they are fronts used by the CIA to track him down. Having successfully turned Carl and Bourne on each other, Toreno leaves, with Carl begrudgingly suiting up for a fight.

He confronts Bourne in the middle of the Grove Street cul-de-sac in the dead of night. Carl is alone.

  • Each fighter has an assault rifle, a sniper rifle, a knife, and a sidearm
  • They both have cars nearby in case one decides to run, in which case this will turn into a drive-by race
  • No interference

Tried to make an interesting, original battle for once. Playing GTA SA Carl has done some incredible stuff, I figured Bourne would be a good starting opponent.

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Jimmy_Rustler

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#2  Edited By Jimmy_Rustler

CJ

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renamed040924

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CJ's abilities weren't just impressive, they were stupid. The guy could do anything. Not just fight, but anything. He's the best low-rider in Los Santos on his first try, he can make any girl fall in love with him after three minutes of dancing, his friends make fun of his driving style but then it turns out he's the best street racer in San Andreas, he's suddenly a master ninja who can infiltrate military complexes and assassinate everyone who gets in his way, he's a world-class sniper capable of making incredible shots at incredible speeds, he can handle just about any weapon on his first try like a professional hitman, he can run successful businesses, plan major heists, manage a rap star, fly planes and helicopters with very minimalistic training, pick up a katana and suddenly wield it like a samurai, and he can act like a doofus while he does all of it.

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Star_Knight

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Jason Bourne kills CJ, Mike Torino, and all gangs in Los Santos in less than 24h

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The_Kidd

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Lol,

O.G. Carl Johnson.

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renamed040924

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Bump?

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AllStarSuperman

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CJ, I've beaten San Andres like 10 times lol.

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Deathstroke02

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CJ would get killed, sent to the hospital and return to Bourne, just to be killed and sent to the hospital again. This happens forever.

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AllStarSuperman

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@nickzambuto: my favorite mission is when he steals the jetpack from a secluded military base.

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MonsterStomp

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#11  Edited By MonsterStomp

Feats for C.J?

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MidnightFreeze

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#12  Edited By MidnightFreeze

CJ wins

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akzarr

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If we go discount game mechanics, then Bourne murders him with just the knife.

If we allow for game mechanics, then CJ tears Bourne's head off then goes off

to bang some chicks whom he just met

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AllStarSuperman

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@monsterstomp: soloing a 3 story warehouse full of balas gang members. Fighting both to get up and then back down. Roughly 50+ guys.

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MonsterStomp

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transcendence

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CJ apparently.

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AllStarSuperman

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#17  Edited By AllStarSuperman

@monsterstomp: no its a mission. But its canon to the story so I don't see how that matters. Truth be told I'm not always sure how to judge what a "game mechanic" is.

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MonsterStomp

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@allstarsuperman: Cutscenes are canon in regards to feats. But without limitations to gameplay, judging feats is very broad as most of the times we don't know the context. Could you pull up the video?

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AllStarSuperman

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MonsterStomp

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@allstarsuperman: Eh, I saw like 10 minutes of spray and pray - run and gun. Nothing impressive, in my honest opinion. CJ was shot by bullets way too many times to survive, which suggest that in actuality he was never shot. So either the copious amount of fodder he was up against were just terrible shooters or CJ is tactically superior to everyone he went up against. Just like the many shooters out there, the quantity of foes they're put up against is exaggerated and primarily built for entertainment. Like reading descriptive words in a book, I don't take them too literal.

With that said, I'm inclined to agree with akzar.

@akzar said:

If we go discount game mechanics, then Bourne murders him with just the knife.

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AllStarSuperman

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@monsterstomp: that is gameplay your talking about though. In the cut scenes after the warehouse explodes he obviously isn't shot. So it implies that he took everyone out tactically. We obviously can't take gameplay durability as actual stats.

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MonsterStomp

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@monsterstomp: that is gameplay your talking about though. In the cut scenes after the warehouse explodes he obviously isn't shot. So it implies that he took everyone out tactically. We obviously can't take gameplay durability as actual stats.

Thank you for repeating what I just said, in a shortened post.

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AllStarSuperman

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@monsterstomp: okay lol. I gotta question though. If there's two ways to do a mission. Take splinter cell double agent for an example. Were you get to choose whether to fail missions on purpose to save people, or let Lambert die , rather then cover for him. Which one is really canon? How do you know?

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MonsterStomp

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@allstarsuperman: I don't think anyone knows. Lol. Sam killed Lambert to maintain his cover (confirmed in Conviction, IIRC), and if he's willing to kill his own boss, I don't think its far fetched to assume that he chose the options which gained the trust of the JBA. But still, its up in the air as far as I know.

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AllStarSuperman

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renamed040924

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@monsterstomp: It's complicated. Don't think of it as gameplay vs cutscenes, think of it more as canon vs not canon. CJ taking down the Ballas HQ is without a question of doubt; canon. His ability to soak up bullets and then regenerate by running into a giant floating heart obviously can't be taken into consideration on a battle forum, but the fact remains that in canon he was skilled enough to basically take down the whole Ballas gang by himself, among other things. For a game like Grand Theft Auto, I would ask that we be a little bit loose with the gameplay feats, because it isn't a very cinematic game like, say, Metal Gear Solid. The feats of the characters are in the gameplay, so if you don't accept that, then we don't have a debate. I'm fine with admitting that, if we were to only take what is explicitly shown in cutscenes into consideration, CJ doesn't even stand a chance against someone like Bourne, but then it would be nice if you (and everyone else) looked at things a bit more... generally so to speak, just for the sake of debate, because I do think CJ makes a great match for Bourne.

I mean the guy is nothing but a hood rat really. He has very little training, yet his natural talent is unbelievable. When the game starts, Carl is just arriving back in Los Santos with nothing, and his old gang is in ruins. Crack dealers litter the streets and have turned almost everyone into junkies, and in the first act of the game it's up to Carl to almost singlehandedly clean things up. His gang has very little power and resources left, but Carl fixes this by stealing a verifiable arsenal of weaponry from the military throughout the course of various missions, giving his gang the opportunity to make a comeback. In a very short time, Carl was able to wage gang wars singlehandedly and steal back the majority of hood in Los Santos from the Ballas, and Sweet even makes mention of Carl practically turning the Grove back around all by himself. But then his friends betray him, his brother is shot and jailed, and CJ is only saved when a group of crooked cops want to use him for their dirty work. But even when he's reduced back to nothing, Carl plans to rise back to power and make money with various heists, and slowly he pulls himself back up until he's running several successful businesses and operating as an unstoppable hitman for the mafia and whoever else is asking. His skills are so immense that a Government agent named Mike Toreno ends up offering Carl a deal -- perform several impossible missions for my agency, and I will get your brother out of jail. And of course Carl succeeds in all of it, no one can stop him, not the army, not aliens, no one. Once his brother is finally released, they once again go back to the Grove, and once again Carl almost singlehandedly cleans up the hood and makes Grove Street the most powerful gang in the city by literally wiping out every rival gang, before storming their HQ, killing their leader who used to be his friend who betrayed him, killing the crooked cop voiced by Samuel L. Jackson who was the source of all his problems, then the game ends with Carl being a rich and successful business man.

Here's a list of CJ's feats, everything I mention is canon, it just doesn't happen in a cutscene. So we can't pull specific feats like "CJ landed 10 headshots on everyone in the room in quick succession before they could shoot him", but I think the fact that we KNOW he killed everyone in that room without getting shot gives us enough to go on. Anyway, here's a list off the top of my head of Carl's feats in driving, shooting, close quarters, and stealth.

Driving/Piloting-

  • In the very first mission "Big Smoke", Carl is attacked by a car full of angry Ballas all shooting at him with automatic weapons, and he is able to outrace and evade them without getting shot on a bike (not a motorcycle, a bike).
  • In the mission "Cesar Vialpando" Carl won a lowrider tournament against the Varrios Los Aztecas (Mexican gang and professional lowriders) despite never lowriding before (not in anyway combat related but it shows how talented he is in picking up challenging skills quickly).
  • The various Catalina missions involve robbing a bank and a betting shop, among other things, and Carl is forced to escape more-or-less the entire police force of Whetstone.
  • The mission "Farewell My Love" is a large street race, where Carl beats Cesar Vialpando (leader of the Varrios Los Aztecas and probably the second best driver in San Andreas), Wu Zi Mu (a blind Triad leader blessed with incredible luck that allows him to fight and drive using just his other senses) and Claude Speed (the protagonist of GTA3 with a plethora of feats in his own right) all at once among other canon fodder drivers.
  • In "Back to School" Carl completes the Advanced Driving School, which involves him pulling off several death defying stunts and learning various advanced maneuvers (flips, rolls, wheelies, driving with popped tires) and the final lesson requires him to drive to one end of San Fierro and back in under two minutes without crashing.
  • In "Monster" Carl is tasked with completing a time trial where he has to drive a monster truck up mountains and through rigorous terrain in a short time. Presumably Toreno did this to test his skills before giving him any real missions.
  • In "Learning to Fly" Carl completes Flying School in record time and becomes an ace pilot of various aircrafts.

Shooting-

  • In the mission "Just Business" Carl's friend Big Smoke was meeting with the Russian Mafia to make a deal, only for it to be revealed that the Russians were planning to assassinate him and had the whole building filled with heavily armed hitmen. Carl and Smoke were able to fight their way through the Atrium by killing every Russian who got in their way, then while making their escape via motorcycle, Carl hung off the back with a gun and was able to take out every pursuing vehicle and clear out every roadblock in their path.
  • In the mission "Robbing Uncle Sam" Carl and Ryder broke into a National Guard base with limited equipment, and fought all the soldiers long enough to steal their stockpile of weapons.
  • In the mission "Reuniting The Families", Carl's brother Sweet meets with another faction of the Grove Street Family in order to negotiate reuniting, but the meeting is busted by the S.W.A.T. team who raid the hotel and kill almost everyone in a matter of seconds. Carl grabs a shotgun and bursts into the hotel, fighting his way through an army of heavily armed S.W.A.T. agents until he finally finds his brother, and together the two get back outside and escape in a getaway car, with Carl hanging out the roof and using an AK to carve themselves a path and gun down any pursuer until eventually the S.W.A.T. team loses them.
  • In the mission "The Green Sabre", Sweet and the rest of Grove plan a largescale ambush on the Ballas home turf in order to take back Los Santos, but right before the battle commences CJ finds out that the whole thing was a set-up, and Grove Street are the ones getting ambushed. He races to the scene to find his brother shot and most of Grove dead, and in an angry frenzy, he challenges every Balla there by proclaiming he's going to take them all down, before doing exactly that until eventually the police show up and arrest him.
  • The various Catalina missions involve robbing a bank and a betting shop, among other things, and Carl and Catalina more or less take on the entire police force of Whetstone.
  • In the mission "Air Raid" Carl wields a gatling gun with his bare hands and uses it to accurately take down a whole battalion of tiny remote-controlled airplanes threatening to destroy Zero's transmitter towers.
  • In the mission "Interdiction" Carl uses an RPG to shoot down a whole fleet of agency helicopters in order to protect the one helicopter under Toreno's command.
  • In the mission "Black Project", after sneaking into Area 69, Carl rampages through the military base and kills every soldier who gets in his way, successfully stealing the government's biggest project -- a 60 million dollar jetpack -- with nobody being able to stop him.
  • Towards the end of the game, when Grove Street has zero influence in Los Santos, Carl manages to singlehandedly wipe out the majority of every rival gang and reinstate Grove as the strongest family.

Close quarters-

  • As soon as the game begins Carl is already a professional criminal with years of experience on the streets of Los Santos and Liberty City, two of the most dangerous cities in the country (with Liberty taking the edge). He has no training, but he's a talented street fighter and fully capable of casually killing two Ballas who got in his way during the mission "Tagging Up Turf" with just his bare hands, and in the mission "Cleaning The Hood" he raided a crack den and killed everyone inside with a baseball bat (he had help from Ryder but that guy can spend the whole mission fighting one guy).
  • In the mission "Catalyst" Carl was strong enough to throw military weapon crates dozens of feet into the back of Ryder's truck, despite the fact that they must have weighed dozens or even hundreds of pounds.
  • After training in the gym and reaching maximum muscle, Carl is able to bench-press 320 pounds effortlessly.
  • Across San Andreas are three gyms, each led by one master. If Carl challenges them and defeats them using his current fighting style, they will train him in their techniques. By the end of the game Carl has mastered boxing, taekwondo, and his most powerful style, kick-boxing.
  • In the mission "Stowaway", Carl infiltrates an agency plane and is forced to fight his way through half a dozen government agents who may-or-may-not-have-been-aliens in order to plant a bomb.

Stealth-

  • In the mission "Madd Dogg's Rhymes", CJ, armed with a knife, broke into superstar-rapper Madd Dogg's heavily guarded mansion, and made his way through while assassinating every bodyguard one-by-one until he found the rapper's precious rhymes book, which he stole and then escaped with, without ever raising a peep.
  • In the mission "The Da Nang Thang" Carl survives a helicopter crash into the ocean, but loses all of his gear except for his knife, whereas his enemies all have machine guns. He sneaks aboard a heavily guarded Triad freighter ship, and assassinates everyone on board and even frees some imprisoned refugees.
  • In "Black Project" Carl infiltrates Area 69, a black military site that's not even on the map where secret research is conducted.
  • In the mission "Vertical Bird" Carl sneaks aboard a military aircraft carrier and manages to steal a fighter jet right from under their noses.

Again, the only problem is that there are no cutscenes, so we just have to take everything at face value. But even then, I'm pretty sure CJ has the edge on Bourne.

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renamed040924

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AllStarSuperman

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@nickzambuto: you can also teach CJ to fight dirty at "below the belt gym". Its in the island that resembles Las Vegas.

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renamed040924

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@allstarsuperman: Also i forgot to mention in the mission where he sneaks aboard the Triad freighter ship, he confronts their leader the Snakehead, a Japanese samurai who tosses Carl a katana and challenges him. The Snakehead was ancient and experienced, but Carl beat him.

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AllStarSuperman

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#30  Edited By AllStarSuperman

@nickzambuto: nice, I remember that mission but I must have skipped the cut scene.

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MonsterStomp

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#32  Edited By MonsterStomp

@nickzambuto: I had a post up in regards to accepting these out of context and practically off-panel feats of simple run n gunning and hand-to-hand, but looking over these feats, primarily the relevant feats, I'm not convinced CJ takes it anyway.

You just stated what merely happened and left out the "how" CJ dealt with them in actuality. I stand by my point that run n gunning isn't impressive. Starting distance is close, if CJ engages Bourne in hand-to-hand, he's finished.

After training in the gym and reaching maximum muscle, Carl is able to bench-press 320 pounds effortlessly.

Across San Andreas are three gyms, each led by one master. If Carl challenges them and defeats them using his current fighting style, they will train him in their techniques. By the end of the game Carl has mastered boxing, taekwondo, and his most powerful style, kick-boxing.

If these feats are optional to the player, then they aren't canon. Or at least they can be argued to being non-canon.

Carls best hand-to-hand feat is defeating a plane of government agents, pretty much off panel. Bourne defeated government agents with ease and enhanced Treadstone operatives in all three films. Bourne was pulled up at an airport in Naples and took out an officer who drew on him, and the man behind him before both men could react. In Ultimatum, Bourne took out 4 government agents to protect Ross in roughly 22 seconds. Lets not forget the copious amounts of showings of him improvising throughout a fight. In the films, he's constantly on the run from Treadstone assets and fighting them.

If they want to gun brawl, they'll both have nothing but empty guns and bullet holes in their cars. If anything, I'd wager Bourne whipping something up due to his keen improvisational skills. The lack of context behind CJ's feats are as ridiculous as the feats themselves.

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renamed040924

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#33  Edited By renamed040924

@nickzambuto: I had a post up in regards to accepting these out of context and practically off-panel feats of simple run n gunning and hand-to-hand, but looking over these feats, primarily the relevant feats, I'm not convinced CJ takes it anyway.

You just stated what merely happened and left out the "how" CJ dealt with them in actuality. I stand by my point that run n gunning isn't impressive. Starting distance is close, if CJ engages Bourne in hand-to-hand, he's finished.

After training in the gym and reaching maximum muscle, Carl is able to bench-press 320 pounds effortlessly.

Across San Andreas are three gyms, each led by one master. If Carl challenges them and defeats them using his current fighting style, they will train him in their techniques. By the end of the game Carl has mastered boxing, taekwondo, and his most powerful style, kick-boxing.

If these feats are optional to the player, then they aren't canon. Or at least they can be argued to being non-canon.

Carls best hand-to-hand feat is defeating a plane of government agents, pretty much off panel. Bourne defeated government agents with ease and enhanced Treadstone operatives in all three films. Bourne was pulled up at an airport in Naples and took out an officer who drew on him, and the man behind him before both men could react. In Ultimatum, Bourne took out 4 government agents to protect Ross in roughly 22 seconds. Lets not forget the copious amounts of showings of him improvising throughout a fight. In the films, he's constantly on the run from Treadstone assets and fighting them.

If they want to gun brawl, they'll both have nothing but empty guns and bullet holes in their cars. If anything, I'd wager Bourne whipping something up due to his keen improvisational skills. The lack of context behind CJ's feats are as ridiculous as the feats themselves.

Good point, but your post doesn't really mean anything though because CJ wouldn't engage Bourne in H2H combat. If you're holding a rifle, you'd have to be an idiot to think fist fighting was a better solution. CJ is just going to raise his gun and shoot, while presumably running for some cover. And he's definitely a far more dangerous gunman than Bourne is, unless you think that Bourne could raid a black-site military base filled with heavily armed soldiers and carve his way to the center of the facility and then steal their most heavily guarded project, or dismantle the strongest gang in a gang-run city singlehandedly. I mean yeah they don't happen in cutscenes, but they really don't need to. I mean what would be the difference if we saw CJ running and shooting people in a cutscene? What would that actually change? And what do you mean by "out of context and practically off-panel feats"? You haven't even played the game so how could you possibly know that?

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RandomSid82

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#34  Edited By RandomSid82

Bourne. Sorry but CJ doesn't impress me much so far based on what I have read here.

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MonsterStomp

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Good point, but your post doesn't really mean anything though because CJ wouldn't engage Bourne in H2H combat. If you're holding a rifle, you'd have to be an idiot to think fist fighting was a better solution. CJ is just going to raise his gun and shoot, while presumably running for some cover. And he's definitely a far more dangerous gunman than Bourne is, unless you think that Bourne could raid a black-site military base filled with heavily armed soldiers and carve his way to the center of the facility and then steal their most heavily guarded project, or dismantle the strongest gang in a gang-run city singlehandedly.

Hmm. I didn't assume both CJ and Bourne were holding an assault rifle, a sniper rifle, a knife and a sidearm. Seems like CJ would have trouble raising a gun if he's holding all of his weapons. What makes you think Bourne wouldn't do the same thing anyway? Shoot and run for cover? Seems like a pretty simple tactic. So I reiterate my post about gun brawling.

If they want to gun brawl, they'll both have nothing but empty guns and bullet holes in their cars. If anything, I'd wager Bourne whipping something up due to his keen improvisational skills.

As for the feat you listed. If you're willing to downplay an NPC like Ryder in "Cleaning The Hood", then downplay all NPC's. Any number of copious fodder that CJ took were brain dead just to entertain the player. Even you must admit that a mere "hood rat" with "little training" shouldn't be able to outshine a base of military soldiers in sheer tactics.

I mean what would be the difference if we saw CJ running and shooting people in a cutscene? What would that actually change?

If the NPC's behaved as they do in gameplay the same way in a cutscene, yeah, that'd actually prove that the fodder CJ went up against were in fact brain dead test dummies. Seriously, were is the logic in that feat?

And what do you mean by "out of context and practically off-panel feats"? You haven't even played the game so how could you possibly know that?

They're practically off-panel, because you didn't even need to pull up any videos of CJ performing this stuff. And there's no need. They're just statements. There's no actual context in the feats as its all gameplay with little to no limitations (which are indications of context).

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renamed040924

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@nickzambuto said:

Good point, but your post doesn't really mean anything though because CJ wouldn't engage Bourne in H2H combat. If you're holding a rifle, you'd have to be an idiot to think fist fighting was a better solution. CJ is just going to raise his gun and shoot, while presumably running for some cover. And he's definitely a far more dangerous gunman than Bourne is, unless you think that Bourne could raid a black-site military base filled with heavily armed soldiers and carve his way to the center of the facility and then steal their most heavily guarded project, or dismantle the strongest gang in a gang-run city singlehandedly.

Hmm. I didn't assume both CJ and Bourne were holding an assault rifle, a sniper rifle, a knife and a sidearm. Seems like CJ would have trouble raising a gun if he's holding all of his weapons. What makes you think Bourne wouldn't do the same thing anyway? Shoot and run for cover? Seems like a pretty simple tactic. So I reiterate my post about gun brawling.

If they want to gun brawl, they'll both have nothing but empty guns and bullet holes in their cars. If anything, I'd wager Bourne whipping something up due to his keen improvisational skills.

As for the feat you listed. If you're willing to downplay an NPC like Ryder in "Cleaning The Hood", then downplay all NPC's. Any number of copious fodder that CJ took were brain dead just to entertain the player. Even you must admit that a mere "hood rat" with "little training" shouldn't be able to outshine a base of military soldiers in sheer tactics.

I mean what would be the difference if we saw CJ running and shooting people in a cutscene? What would that actually change?

If the NPC's behaved as they do in gameplay the same way in a cutscene, yeah, that'd actually prove that the fodder CJ went up against were in fact brain dead test dummies. Seriously, were is the logic in that feat?

And what do you mean by "out of context and practically off-panel feats"? You haven't even played the game so how could you possibly know that?

They're practically off-panel, because you didn't even need to pull up any videos of CJ performing this stuff. And there's no need. They're just statements. There's no actual context in the feats as its all gameplay with little to no limitations (which are indications of context).

I don't understand your logic. Ryder isn't CJ, he's just a regular gangster, so it makes sense he's only on par with other regular gangsters. CJ on the other hand is a verifiable one man army, Ryder, Sweet, Smoke, and the rest of Grove Street had five years to get their gang out of the gutter and only succeeded in digging it deeper, but then CJ comes back to town and has Grove back on top within a matter of weeks, Sweet even states this. So why should NPCs be downplayed? They are canon fodder, nothing more, nothing less.

And why would a gun battle end with both of them having empty clips? If Carl is the more skilled gunmen, he would win the battle and shoot Bourne. And you can't downplay CJ just because he has no training, that's the whole point. He's just a hood rat - a rather dumb hood rat sometimes - but then it turns out he's an unstoppable war machine and master hitman. Toreno even jokes after a few missions that he's starting to wonder if Carl is actually a double agent.

I'd also like to point out that the policeman in San Andreas pull moves like shooting while hanging upside down, duel wielding guns with accuracy, and jumping from speeding motorbikes onto the cars they're chasing to try and punch Carl out. Everything points to them in fact NOT being brain dead, rather the whole city is just over-the-top, with CJ being the biggest badass out of them all.

In this mission, Carl is using a handheld Gatling Gun to shoot down a battalion of RC planes. That kind of weapon is the opposite of accurate, it's heavy and cumbersome and has to be wielded from the hip, it's impossible to actually use one that isn't mounted IRL. Not to mention the planes were small, moving, and high in the air. That takes a LOT of skill to accurately shoot them all down before any of them could damage the transmitters.

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It doesn't happen in a cutscene but it doesn't need to, we know what happens. Do you think Bourne is that accurate? Does he have any feats that put him anywhere near that level of skill? I mean let's be real, shooting down all those planes with a rifle would be unlikely in real life, let alone a weapon that's impossible to actually wield. Again, the whole game is over the top, but that doesn't take away from Carl's feats.

In this mission Carl is tasked with protecting a REAL helicopter from a fleet of enemy helicopters, so he uses a rocket launcher to shoot them all down. Again he's using an extremely inaccurate and cumbersome weapon to accurately bring down difficult far away and moving targets. Does Bourne have any feats to say he's skilled enough to even fire an RPG accurately? Let alone just as accurately as anyone in the real world would fire a rifle?

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And that's just raw accuracy on Carl's part. For overall combat ability, he has the aforementioned feats of fighting the army and bringing down the Ballas.

Carl also has the stealth advantage on Bourne, what with sneaking into several black military sites among other things.

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#37  Edited By MonsterStomp

@nickzambuto:

And why would a gun battle end with both of them having empty clips? If Carl is the more skilled gunmen, he would win the battle and shoot Bourne.

Because everyone CJ fought jobbed to a ridiculous extent just to entertain players. Jason Bourne isn't a jobber and the people he fought actually gave him a fight, whereas CJ beat fodder who were designed to be beat. Unless CJ wants to try and outflank someone of Bourne's calibre of intellect/battlefield awareness and improvisational skill, he's getting shot right in the forehead.

Seriously, Carl takes out a MILITARY BASE and the reason that his turf isn't constantly under military surveillance/war speaks volumes of the context of his feats. Controlled by a game mechanic that gets rid of "heat" over time. There is no logic/context in his feats. Everything he does is pretty much game mechanics, which is his protective aura. Hence forth, it will be my argument.

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@nickzambuto: I'm sorry, I can't help but laugh at that second vid. First, he missed many many times. Second the Helicopters were not very far away. And lastly no rocket launcher reloads that fast. He was able to fire so many times in a row it was just ridiculous.

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@nickzambuto:

And why would a gun battle end with both of them having empty clips? If Carl is the more skilled gunmen, he would win the battle and shoot Bourne.

Because everyone CJ fought jobbed to a ridiculous extent just to entertain players. Jason Bourne isn't a jobber and the people he fought actually gave him a fight, whereas CJ beat fodder who were designed to be beat. Unless CJ wants to try and outflank someone of Bourne's calibre of intellect/battlefield awareness and improvisational skill, he's getting shot right in the forehead.

Seriously, Carl takes out a MILITARY BASE and the reason that his turf isn't constantly under military surveillance/war speaks volumes of the context of his feats. There is no logic in his feats. Everything he does is pretty much game mechanics. Which will hence forth be my argument.

Weak argument. Everyone Bourne fought jobbed to a ridiculous extent just to entertain moviegoers. Carl Johnson isn't a jobber and the people he fought actually gave him a fight, whereas Bourne beat fodder who were designed to be beat.

Admittedly Carl didn't fight many people with feats of their own, but as far as I know neither did Bourne. Do you actually have a response to Carl's showings of inhuman accuracy in those clips? Because from what I already know, I'm pretty sure Bourne isn't on that level. Why don't you just admit Carl has the better feats? There's nothing wrong with that when it's so clear. Your whole argument now is just saying that the fodder CJ fought were stupid, but can you actually prove that? What separates the soldiers CJ fought from the agents Bourne fought, besides the colossal numbers difference?

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@nickzambuto: I'm sorry, I can't help but laugh at that second vid. First, he missed many many times. Second the Helicopters were not very far away. And lastly no rocket launcher reloads that fast. He was able to fire so many times in a row it was just ridiculous.

You need to separate game mechanics from canon. Yes no rocket launcher reloads that fast, nor would the helicopter he was protecting have lasted that long, meaning Carl likely didn't miss at all.

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@randomsid said:

@nickzambuto: I'm sorry, I can't help but laugh at that second vid. First, he missed many many times. Second the Helicopters were not very far away. And lastly no rocket launcher reloads that fast. He was able to fire so many times in a row it was just ridiculous.

You need to separate game mechanics from canon. Yes no rocket launcher reloads that fast, nor would the helicopter he was protecting have lasted that long, meaning Carl likely didn't miss at all.

Seeing as how many Helicopters there were, he wouldn't have been able to do it without an autoreloading rocket launcher. You are using game mechanics to say he is better than someone else. Sorry, but he is just a street thug. Bourne is a highly trained operative that took on MUCH higher trained people that CJ ever even thought about taking on.

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#42  Edited By MonsterStomp

@nickzambuto said:

Weak argument. Everyone Bourne fought jobbed to a ridiculous extent just to entertain moviegoers. Carl Johnson isn't a jobber and the people he fought actually gave him a fight, whereas Bourne beat fodder who were designed to be beat.

Admittedly Carl didn't fight many people with feats of their own, but as far as I know neither did Bourne. Do you actually have a response to Carl's showings of inhuman accuracy in those clips? Because from what I already know, I'm pretty sure Bourne isn't on that level. Why don't you just admit Carl has the better feats? There's nothing wrong with that when it's so clear. Your whole argument now is just saying that the fodder CJ fought were stupid, but can you actually prove that? What separates the soldiers CJ fought from the agents Bourne fought, besides the colossal numbers difference?

It doesn't work when you flip the script. Its a fact that Bourne is a multimillion dollar weapon, trained for the primary reason to kill for the government. Training so vividly imprinted into his mind and muscle memory that even with amnesia, the man is the most dangerous thing that his agency has ever produced. Carl hasn't fought anyone who has tested his level of skill and the majority of his feats are grossly exaggerated for the purpose of entertainment. Like I said, Carl is protected by game mechanics (refer to my thoughts on his military soloing feat). Whereas, there are moments where Bourne barely scrapes out of a situation.

Take away game mechanics. Carl can't compete with Bourne in any fathomable way. Nothing in the GTA universe should be taken seriously, which is what makes it such an addictive game. You can basically do anything and everything because everything is game mechanics.

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@nickzambuto said:

Weak argument. Everyone Bourne fought jobbed to a ridiculous extent just to entertain moviegoers. Carl Johnson isn't a jobber and the people he fought actually gave him a fight, whereas Bourne beat fodder who were designed to be beat.

Admittedly Carl didn't fight many people with feats of their own, but as far as I know neither did Bourne. Do you actually have a response to Carl's showings of inhuman accuracy in those clips? Because from what I already know, I'm pretty sure Bourne isn't on that level. Why don't you just admit Carl has the better feats? There's nothing wrong with that when it's so clear. Your whole argument now is just saying that the fodder CJ fought were stupid, but can you actually prove that? What separates the soldiers CJ fought from the agents Bourne fought, besides the colossal numbers difference?

It doesn't work when you flip the script. Its a fact that Bourne is a multimillion dollar weapon, trained for the primary reason to kill for the government. Training so vividly imprinted into his mind and muscle memory that even with amnesia, the man is the most dangerous thing that his agency has ever produced. Carl hasn't fought anyone who has tested his level of skill and the majority of his feats are grossly exaggerated for the purpose of entertainment. Like I said, Carl is protected by game mechanics (refer to my thoughts on his military soloing feat). Whereas, there are moments where Bourne barely scrapes out of a situation.

Take away game mechanics. Carl can't compete with Bourne in any fathomable way. Nothing in the GTA universe should be taken seriously, which is what makes it such an addictive game. You can basically do anything and everything because everything is game mechanics.

You can't just blame everything Carl did on game mechanics, that's weak debating. It isn't even debating, it's a cop out. Everything I mentioned in this thread is 100% completely irrefutably canon; Carl DID break into Area 69 and steal a 60 million dollar jetpack while slaughtering every soldier who got in his way. Just because we don't know specifically where he shot each soldier and when he took cover and which foot he placed in front of the other from a cutscene doesn't change that. Bourne's training is good, but training only serves to further feats. Despite his training Bourne is not capable of being a one-man-army like CJ is. CJ has the better feats, he can do things Bourne can't and is just better, that's the end of it.

And what does Bourne having a hard time have to do with anything? I would think a character coasting through their battles without an issue would be more impressive, but regardless, it's not like Carl never had a hard time and never faced anyone who could match him. T-Bone Mendez, Big Smoke, Pulaski, Claude, and of course Tenpenny, all notable characters who nearly killed Carl. Believe me, CJ was fully aware throughout the game that the things he was doing were insane. This is his reaction to Toreno forcing him to sneak into a military aircraft carrier and steal a fighter jet to use to destroy a bunch of spy ships and then a team of other fighter jets who came after him. He had no experience or training in that environment and was ill equipped, things like the pressure and G force must have been horrible for him, and he admitted that.

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Nick is right on this one. CJ wins. That his feats don't happen in cutscenes or are ridiculous doesn't change the fact that they are canon.

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#45  Edited By renamed040924

Nick is right on this one. CJ wins. That his feats don't happen in cutscenes or are ridiculous doesn't change the fact that they are canon.

That's what I'm trying to say. The point is he did these things. We don't need to know exactly how he went about it (although the gameplay should give us a good enough idea regardless) because Bourne isn't capable of replicating these feats anyway.

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@nickzambuto: Indeed. Not to mention canon parts of the story and game itself such as dialogue, i.e "CJ, shoot down those helicopters!" usually help to clarify the nature of a feat further.

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@nickzambuto: Indeed. Not to mention canon parts of the story and game itself such as dialogue, i.e "CJ, shoot down those helicopters!" usually help to clarify the nature of a feat further.

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@i_like_swords: @nickzambuto: What was the highest quaility of fodder that CJ took on? Most of it was street gang thugs correct? I saw mention of a military installation he took down, so maybe some low level army brats also?

How does that compare to a guy that is literally a billion dollar killing machine trained in multiple martial arts, multiple gun usage, stealth, assassination, and many many other things taking on other billion dollar killing machines and winning every time? I'm sorry, but NOTHING that CJ took on comes close to what Bourne took on and beat.

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#49  Edited By MonsterStomp

@nickzambuto:

You can't just blame everything Carl did on game mechanics, that's weak debating. It isn't even debating, it's a cop out.

You can't just call it weak debating every time someone factually has you at a checkmate. I don't see you even countering my questioning of the validity of the feats you've put forth. If I call it game mechanics, give a reason why I think so, and you don't argue why it isn't game mechanics, then I win.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I can accept the fact that CJ's feats are canon, in the sense of plot, but the context of his feats are never explained (off panel), in the sense that a canon fight between Scorpion and Sub Zero is. How many military levelling feats do these hood rats do without it coming back to bite them in the ass? Everyone in the GTA universe is protected by game mechanics.

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@randomsid: My favourite part was "low level army brats", haha. You're doing a good job but my advice would be not to target experienced trolls. I can kind of see through it all since I have been on your side of the fence as well. Still, keep doing what you're doing and you'll inevitably find success somewhere.