Captain Marvel runs the Mid/High tier gauntlet

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Cruelrain

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Captain Marvel

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Rules

  • Win By Death, KO or Incap
  • Fight Starts at 50 feets apart
  • Random encounter
  • In character but going all out
  • Carol has her Binary form allowed

Gauntlet

  • War Machine
  • Captain Britain (Brian)
  • Vision
  • Namor (Pre Amp)
  • Ikaris
  • Wonder Man
  • Hercules
  • Hyperion
  • Gladiador
  • Firelord

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deactivated-5fd9371ae7062

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Stops at 7 in a good fight but with her Binary form stops at Firelord

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Hamster555

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WaitOmegaStorm

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Didn't Vision beat her even though she had the backup of several avengers?

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Cruelrain

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@waitomegastorm: i don't know if that's consistent from him since he "beat" Jane Thor in the same comic i believe

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deactivated-6021b09dd509c

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Stops at Hercules.

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deactivated-62bb20d3566c2

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Shouldn’t Firelord be herald tier? I mean..he is a herald.

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deactivated-5fc2ad32ef8ba

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Herc.

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Mooty_Pass

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#9  Edited By Mooty_Pass

I would say she stops at Gladiator.

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deactivated-5fd9371ae7062

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@noobmaster2001:

Binary Carol stalemated him in recent comics but he is herald tier I think


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deactivated-62bb20d3566c2

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Underfire47

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#12  Edited By Underfire47

In binary mode she stops at Herc or WM if he is allowed his Ionic form.

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cosmic_reign

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Probably stops at Ikaris who is misplaced IMO

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Kevd4wg

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#14  Edited By Kevd4wg

Herc should be the 2nd highest but she stops at him

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Cruelrain

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Probably stops at Ikaris who is misplaced IMO

Where would you put him?

from what i saw he stated he's weaker than Thor, got stalemated by Namor and Apocalypse was overpowering him

not seeing him above the likes for Wonder Man or Hercules

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Noone1996

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Stops at 1.

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Even the current/modern Carol, who is getting a huge push as a high tier, couldn't do well against that same suit despite the guy piloting it being inexperienced and holding back.

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deactivated-5fc2ad32ef8ba

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Noone1996

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@ecstaticgrace: Once again, weaker without her Binary form. Every time they talk about her being "weakened" they are comparing her overall power. That includes Binary. But I guess accepting that would ruin the character for you, so keep thinking otherwise.

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Olorun

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8/9/10 imo her binary form is going to carry her.

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ChampionJoe

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Stops at 7.

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deactivated-5f5be9e305ddd

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stops at herc def its gonna be a good fight

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Noone1996

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#26  Edited By Noone1996

^ Frank Castle was holding back, inexperienced, using an obsolete armor, and when he blasted her with his repulsor cannon point blank, after they both free fell, he recovered first xD

@ecstaticgrace said:

The issue there was you were suggesting her breathing in space wasn’t due to overall power. You even suggested she gained additional lungs or something of the sort? For all we know was what you were implying?

Being able to breathe in space has nothing to due with physical strength/durability or stats. I pointed out that her ORIGINAL powers created an invisible energy field that allowed her to breathe in space. Since Cru repaired her powers, maybe then she could activate that old power again. It has nothing to do with an "amp".

That first instance I posted straight up suggest she used energy reserves something she didn’t have to fall back on Post-Cru but even if you want to ignore that Despite energy being what amps her physicals.

Energy reserves which comes from her Binary powers. She uses the Binary ability to amplify herself.

I honestly personally think she’s Iron Man tier in her base form. I’m not trying to suggest she a tier over him in her base form despite ironic portrayals of the recent 10 years between the characters.

If we're going off of consistent showings, she's barely in his tier. She has an awful track record against high tiers, there are more instances of her doing poorly against Iron Man armors than otherwise, and even Rogue's consistent power levels show us what tier Carol is in.

There’s waaaaaay to many instances to just outright ignore between the two. With multiple writers.

Way too much context too.

1. 2019 Kelly Thompson (Tore the suit apart) (In fairness this was in Carol’s home book)

Doesn't really matter. Even here she does poorly against Tony. She couldn't do anything to him until she was amped by his repulsors. Even while partially armored and cheap-shotted, she couldn't damage the suit faster than it was equipped. Hell, it was confirmed that she had just beaten Thor an hour earlier through constant energy absorption for hours (before taking in one big lightning bolt at the end), so she may have actually been STILL amped before fighting Tony.

2. 2019 Dan Slott (She restrained a hacked Iron Man in his own series with Iron Man telling her not to kill him again and her reply she’ll hold back this time) (This was in an Iron Man book as well)

Yet he has his older armors beat her pages later. Really makes you think. I wonder if Kelly Thompson saw that before writing her version of the Iron Man fight since Carol is scared of the army of suits there too. Civil War II was the biggest event in Marvel history, so writers are just going to keep following suit. Just like people follow suit with Civil War I and pretend like Captain America and Iron Man are physical rivals.

3-4. 2016 Brian Michael Bendis against the Marvel which narratively was suppose to be his strongest armor at the time.

I find it hilarious that you even have images of that fight saved. That'd be like if I kept Firelord vs Spider-Man saved and constantly posted it to prove that Peter Parker was a high tier.

5-6. 2013 Peter David (Carol fought a team of Iron Man, Captain America and Magus. The prior two thinking she was a skrull so neither needing to be holding back. The only person that hurt her was Magus and herself with her energy blast)

Iron Man blasted her (which she absorbed) before she floored him. Seeing a pattern yet?

7-8. 2016 Brian Michael Bendis (First scan she cracks his armor with her punches, the second instance before the Marvel Buster fight has Tony suggest he’s done holding back and Carol says the same thing. We know which direction that goes though)

He was repairing faster than she could damage him (kind of like in Thompson's fight), but yeah they were both holding back so I don't see what this proves other than Bendis' idiocy.

War Machine though?

You mean the character that embarrassed Carol twice? Even with Iron Man as backup, she did awfully.

1-3. Jonathan Hickman (I could be wrong with this one but I don’t remember it ever being stated the War Machine Drones were less durable) (Regardless Carol pinches a hole through one)

Those War Machine drones were variations of the Iron Patriot armor which was stolen and mass produced by AIM. Not only was the Iron Patriot missing Stark components/repulsor/arc reactor technology, but it was then mass produced by these guys:

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I've explained why the Iron Patriot is weaker to you before, so I won't go any further. However, Hickman portrayed those drones as complete fodder anyway. Black Panther's energy daggers were one-shotting them, Captain Britain was one-shotting them, Hulk was casually tearing them apart, etc.

4-6. Bendis, Hickman, Ewing (It basically shows War Machine can’t survive a punch from a weakened Thanos) Carol took a cheapshot from Thanos getting knocked out as well in The Ultimates book apparently got his attention and strangled and eye blasted from him

If Carol hadn't been Binary, she would have died too. Not sure why that's a good feat for her in your eyes. Actual high tiers performed much better than her in Infinity. As for the Ultimates book, again she was amped, so I don't see how that shows Carol's superiority by comparison to Rhodey. Hell, even then Thanos didn't even punch her. He just blasted her. When he used his hands, he casually overpowered and choked her with one hand. If anything, it actually doesn't make War Machine look so bad in the grand scheme of things considering how poorly Binary performed against the weakened Thanos.

There was even that instance you use to like bringing up where Punisher was operating the War Machine armor and the writer ignored Carol’s energy absorption and still had Frank decide to run away from Carol. You could even scale War Machine higher than Iron Man off that series if you‘d like too to suggest my Iron Man mentions are irrelevant.

Ignored energy absorption? It literally shows him blasting her, she just stands there with energy glowing around her unphased, and then when she blasts him it finally starts to damage his armor. But anyway, Frank blasted her, recovered first, and then was willing to fight again until she got bored. He didn't want to fight or kill her because she's a hero. This idea that he was scared because he was outclassed is just not true. He wasn't even going all out.

I don’t really lose anything if we pretend like WarBird wasn’t weaker than a modern incarnation of Carol in all honestly. We could pretend like she wasn’t weaker but there’s to many showings to suggest she stops at one especially with access to Binary. She operates at a higher tier at that point.

Yes you do because it makes her current high tier showings massively inconsistent. IIRC, she can't just turn Binary out of nowhere. Doesn't she need to absorb inordinate amounts of energy first?

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Baldur_Odinson

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Could potentially cleear, or she stops anywhere from 7 and above.

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Punyaamrit

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how can she beat vision if she can't touch him? stops at 2

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CaptFalcon725

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I would say she stops at Gladiator.

Presuming confidence you're absolutely correct. That's my vote.

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cosmic_reign

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#32  Edited By cosmic_reign

@cruelrain said:
@cosmic_reign said:

Probably stops at Ikaris who is misplaced IMO

Where would you put him?

from what i saw he stated he's weaker than Thor, got stalemated by Namor and Apocalypse was overpowering him

not seeing him above the likes for Wonder Man or Hercules

Namor held his own, but with help and context:

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Ikaris had already toyed with Herc just before Herc went on his journey to become All-Father..

Based on that direct encounter, I'd place Ikaris after Herc, not sure about Hyperion.

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HellionVulcan

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Could stop at Ikaris all the way up to Hyperion but she'll get dead stopped at Gladiator.

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Racetraxk

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She stops at Ikaris in Regular Form. Ikaris has always been known as that god who can get stuff done but never does, he did got destroyed by Red Hulk but everyone did, and also got massively destroyed by Gilgamesh. if Ikaris was used properly he would be another Thor for the Eternals.

She stops at Hercules in Binary. she couldn't even hurt Hercules with the regular form and i dont see her hurting Hercules in binary also especially since he has tanked hits from Firelord and Ghost Rider she cant hurt him with the blasts but if she decided to go down and try to brawl out with Hercules, she is getting destroyed by Hercules.

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Racetraxk

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#36  Edited By Racetraxk

@ecstaticgrace: do you have any showings of her using her energy? i might probably wrong with Hercules, Carol is a fly and Shoot person like tony if i can get a good glimpse of what her binary can do she probably can take Hercules off

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JOSHN05

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Gonna say that she stops at herc

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Racetraxk

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Hercules Taking a full Blast from Storm
Hercules Taking a full Blast from Storm
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Has taken hits from Hulkbuster Zom, Zom the same being who controlled Dr Strange during WWH Saga
Has taken hits from Hulkbuster Zom, Zom the same being who controlled Dr Strange during WWH Saga

Hercules has a well good showing of Durability feats, it could do something against Carol (Binary), im new at this lol

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green_skaar

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She has the same response I would if Wonder Man said he's as strong as Sentry, uh, okay....

As for the thread, could stop at Vision or Namor, definitely stops at Hercules.

Could she not just absorb his ionic energy?

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TheIncredibleSuperHulk8642

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Base Carol could stop at WM (if WM is Ionic she definitely stops), definitely stops at Herc. Binary could stop at Herc but definitely stops at Hyperion.

Idk enough about Ikaris so I’m not including him in my judgement :$

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Lilbroomstick

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#43  Edited By Lilbroomstick

She might stop at 1 in just base form tbh. With Binary though she could make it to Wonder Man or Hercules.

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Base Carol could stop at WM (if WM is Ionic she definitely stops), definitely stops at Herc. Binary could stop at Herc but definitely stops at Hyperion.

Idk enough about Ikaris so I’m not including him in my judgement :$

I agree with a full stop at Hyperion, I've seen scans with Captain America telling her to use it just to be strong enough to help free Thor from Hyperion and Zarda. She didn't go Binary and got slapped away by Hyperion.

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Noone1996

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I think it's funny that whenever I send an enormously long post, you complain, but then you see no issue with INITIATING these posts to begin with. Haven't even started yet, but I can just tell my post will be long because it will be replying to YOUR long post first.

I’m not trying to do these things we normally do where we do the I show something and you do the lowball the hell out of it so I’ll just point out the fact that this inexperienced War Machine beat Iron Man.

That sounds great to me. You never seem to read my replies anyway since you just spout on and on the same debunked talking points. At this point, I'm more replying for others who might read than for you.

Even if we pretend like he didn't fight Iron Man dirty and in a cheap way to wear him down easier, the War Machine armor is still an Iron Man armor. It's still Stark tech, so arguing that Iron Man lost to the same guy Carol struggled against, isn't a lowball or anti-feat. Wow Iron Man lost to Iron Man. You really got me there! The War Machine armor was built as the next iteration of Iron Man, just so you are aware:

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I find your whole argument even less relevant since we're not even talking about Iron Man either. If you want to pretend like War Machine is a completely separate character from Iron Man or Tony Stark, then why bring him up in a debate between Carol and War Machine? Lol.

You’re not reading what’s in the pages. You pointed our her original powers allowed her to breathe in space by an energy field? No they didn’t. You kept bringing it up not reading the scans you even provided... Her suit at the time allowed her to breathe in space not her powers. You don’t follow context

Her suit isn't connected at all to her powers? Then I guess Rogue must have also stolen her suit with her powers too, then eh? How do you explain her ability to survive in space after Binary decked her to the moon? In fact, it's not until the early 80s (when Carol gets rid of that old suit for the new one made by unstable molecules), that Rogue steals her powers anyway. So you might take that scan as literal as humanly possible, but that doesn't negate the fact that it was clearly connected to her powers before she started having power problems in the first place.

Your saying she taps into Binary to breathe in space? She’s been in space in her base form unable to draw the power to even access Binary Post-Cru. Again not paying attention to what’s provided on the pages

No never said that. The energy reserves thing is connected to Binary. That's what I was referring to. She could always breathe in space before when her powers were fine, but after they broke she was unable to breathe in space. When Cru fixed the Binary problem, it fixed the other problems too. Energy reserves included (which is what you brought up).

The same panel where War Machine was shown getting up it was stated Carol was also getting up. So him getting up first is eh... Carol even being the one the missile explodes in and Frank just being really close when it happens. The writer also ignored the fact Carol has energy absorption which the missile would of made the fight logically even more one sided after that. Maybe that’s why Frank runs away.

“Is she down, Negative she’s getting back up”

No, actually it shows him halfway down the alley as she is in the process of getting up. Frank is already walking away and "she is getting up" which means when they both landed, he got up first and started to walk away. Then he asks the AI if she was down and it said, "no she is getting up now". Meanwhile, Frank is already out of sight. That means he recovered first. As for the writer "ignoring" the fact that she absorbs energy, I don't think she does it automatically. If she is taken by surprise it can still hit/hurt her. Not to mention the fact that she is shown absorbing War Machine's repulsors in this page:

This scan also reminds you that Frank was actively trying not to kill her.
This scan also reminds you that Frank was actively trying not to kill her.

What a coincidence that after he blasted at her and she wasn't shown dodging it, she can suddenly start to damage him. Imagine that.

He ran away, he even stayed out of the air just to avoid being seen by her.

Do you really think it's outside the realm of possibility that he avoided and didn't want to fight her due to the fact that he doesn't like fighting heroes? That he knew it would waste his time and prevent him from hunting HYDRA agents? I love how this isn't a factor at all to you. He just wanted to leave because he was scared and knew he was outclassed? Sure, keep thinking that. How would he even know how "outclassed" he is when he's holding back and knows nothing about the armors durability limits?

The fight against Iron Man visibly showed Iron Man struggling and incapped by a vehicle

Yeah after Frank shot a missile at Tony which collapsed a building/tunnel on top of him, punched him, then blasted him point blank in the helmet HUD. Probably softened Tony up a bit. Especially since, when War Machine did the same thing to Carol with a missile, she was gone for several pages:

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It was about 3-4 pages I believe.

I'll also never understand why people think getting harmed by vehicles is a low showing when someone strong is throwing them. Let's see how Carol deals with a car that Mr. Hyde throws at her:

Does this mean she is less durable than a taxi? No, it's just because of who threw it. The funny thing though is that Iron Man warned Carol and she still grunted/strained while in that same story he caught it just fine.

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But yeah let's pretend like if the Hulk, who can throw thousand ton objects/characters to the moon instantly, threw a car at someone that it wouldn't hurt lol. Same thing applies to an Iron Man armor.

The Thanos Binary got cheapshotted from was during Infinity in 2013 he wasn’t weakened. The Thanos Rhodey got killed by was in CW II in 2019 he was weakened

It's funny that you point out she got cheap-shotted because she also cheap-shotted Proxima Midnight and only knocked her over. Some high tier Binary is. Anyway, I don't see how this compares or relates. The weakened Thanos could probably one-shot Carol too with his punches. Even if he couldn't under Bendis, she was amped. Besides, you do realize that even Rhodey was cheap-shotted too, right? He was focused on She-Hulk and the smoke from the explosion made it hard for him to see Thanos.

Also, I was actually referring to Binary Carol fighting the same Thanos that killed Rhodey here:

We saw just how well Carol could do against the same exact weakened Thanos that one-shotted War Machine, so let's not pretend like Ms. Marvel was not fodder to him. At least Rhodey wasn't amped and only wearing 1980s armor.
We saw just how well Carol could do against the same exact weakened Thanos that one-shotted War Machine, so let's not pretend like Ms. Marvel was not fodder to him. At least Rhodey wasn't amped and only wearing 1980s armor.

The same weakened Thanos that killed Rhodey in CWII Carol knocked out

Yeah, after Spectrum, Blue Marvel, Human Torch, Medusa, War Machine, and She-Hulk hit him repeatedly. In fact, Carol was amped by Thanos' weapon, but sure let's pretend like this comparison works.

Your not paying attention to what I’m typing and worse what’s on the comic pages. You posted a scan trying to suggest originally Carol could survive in space in her own powers which isn’t true. It was thanks to the costume she had at the time.

Even if this was true, it doesn't prove an amp lol. Being able to survive/breathe in space doesn't relate to durability amps. Smh.

Your ignoring the fact Iron Man’s energy blast she consistently just ignores. That’s pretty notable right there. She either tanks them or is slightly if anything bothered. Just because she absorbs energy doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. Yet for some reason Iron Man struggles to harm her

A properly written Iron Man would never even attempt to blast Carol because he would know she's going to absorb it anyway. Even Rhodey would be too smart to blast her. Hell, Parnell Jacobs (the guy piloting the rogue War Machine armor), defeated her without using energy blasts. But it's pretty funny and ironic that you are going to pull the "consistency" card on me.

Scan 1: Deep Sea armor and several other old suits are overwhelming and hurting her with repulsors; Scan 2: Iron Patriot armor, which is confirmed to have lower power yields and cheap repulsor tech, makes her scream out in pain; Scan 3: Moonstone, a character with comparable durability to Carol, is one-shotted by a time displaced individual using Iron Man technology repulsor rays; Scan 4: The shockwave/kickback/brushback from his repulsor rays hitting Doomsday Man makes Carol scream "YOW!"; Scan 5: Even under this shitty writing moment, Iron Man's fodder armors make Carol scream out in pain. I know it's hypocritical to use this scan since those armors were written poorly, but even when they are written in a shitty way, they still harmed Carol; Scan 6: War Machine's energy blasts stalemate Carol's angry blasts (I think we know that Ms. Marvel could hurt herself with photon blasts).

Not even sure why I'm making this argument right now. Iron Man's repulsors were only no-sold in your examples because she absorbed them. That's it. In fact, in the Thompson case, she was probably still amped by Thor's power. So you're wrong.

Compare that to let’s say Thor under the first writer Kelly Thompson

Yes because that's a good comparison. I'm sure Iron Man's absorbed repulsors not hurting Carol is comparable to Thor's absorbed lightning making her grunt in pain.

Or the fact despite Iron Man thinking she was a skrull it was Magus who had to come in and take Carol down.

Irrelevant.

Out of all your comments though in your last post I was most curious about this?

Lmao when did she get beat?

Alright I over exaggerated. Technically, the armors didn't "beat" her, but she was overwhelmed and basically says that she cannot help to take Spymaster down because of how much trouble these suits were giving her. I think the most telling part of that exchange is what Carol says to Tony, "it's up to you".

All of this is irrelevant though given she is allowed to go Binary here and in her current series has been doing it without absorbing energy. Binary would lol-stomp War Machine.

If she's suddenly able to become Binary out of nowhere, then fair enough. She probably wouldn't stop at War Machine, but even Binary's consistent feats are nowhere near high tier. I really don't understand why you like Carol so much lol. Is it the part about her getting overpowered by Colossus? Failing to one-shot Rogue? Getting overpowered by one hand from a weakened Thanos? Getting one-shotted by Thanos in Infinity? Failing to easily defeat Captain Britain? Having a photon blast get stopped by Machine Man's hand?

Yeah, War Machine's REAL outclassed... LOL sure. Oh right, I forgot she caused a chain reaction that killed a planet and fought equally with Firelord, so now she would casually one-shot Iron Man armors and no-sell their punches. Keep thinking that.

Im also curious to where the War Machine drones were suggested to be Iron Patriot armors. You state it but don’t show it.

It's a lot to show, but bear with me.

SHIELD acquired the Iron Patriot suit which was then sold/stolen and then mass produced by AIM:

Okay, so you've got the SHIELD/AIM connection now, right?

Alright well these things became sentient and they needed somebody to talk to them because they were causing problems worldwide. Attacking military bases, killing terrorists, etc. So guess who they send?

They were directionless without AIM and they wanted a leader, so they chose Rhodey.
Under Hickman, he works with SHIELD while still in control of these suits and decides to use them as War Machine armors instead of Iron Patriot ones. He directly controls them here.

Feel free to read the Marvel Wiki entry and see if anything I'm claiming here doesn't match up: https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Iron_Patriot_Armor_Model_2.

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Joca19p

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Stops at Hercules.

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SquadDoubleYou

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likely stops at WW, not getting past Herc

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Noone1996

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The Thanos that was strangling Carol was later on when he escaped the prison he was in. the same attacks that were hurting him when he was fighting against War Machine and the Inhumans, Ultimates, and Human Torch weren't hurting him. So how would that be a point? Carol came off better against Thanos under both writers during the same time period against Thanos than Rhodey did. Id argue the Thanos using the gun was weaker than the Thanos who was strangling Carol with one hand.

You were the one that was mixing showings here and incorrectly comparing War Machine/Carol to Thanos. You said that, in the Civil War II prelude, Carol could punch out and KO the weakened Thanos while War Machine was one-shotted (which is faulty in itself) and then went on to compare how BINARY Carol in The Ultimates withstood an energy beam from that same weakened Thanos. That Ultimates comparison is faulty as well because Thanos didn't one-shot War Machine with his eye beams. He used his raw strength and striking power. When he used that same brute strength on Carol, he overpowered and choked her out with one hand lol. She was amped and modern too while Rhodey wasn't. It was a bad comparison.

This is also ignoring the fact Carol has survived a blindsided punch from Thanos before something Rhodey showed he was incapable of in the War Machine armor.

In Infinity, she was KO'd for awhile (until Avenger backup arrived) and she was amped to Binary levels. Not to mention Rhodey was wearing an outdated suit from the 80s. It's hard for me to argue that Binary is above War Machine based on that showing, but I don't have to because the scenario isn't even remotely the same and that's not what you're arguing. You think even base Carol is above modern War Machine. Those examples don't prove it.

In the War Machine vs Carol fight it legitimately states she got up around the same time, War Machine (Punisher) got up. I don’t get how your going to ignore dialogue.

He was down in the alley before she got up and then she flew away (maybe because she couldn't find him). You can say it was around the same time, but if it was then she wouldn't have flown away or fail to see him going down that alley. Either that blast really hurt her and her confidence so she flew away to get backup or she couldn't find him and flew away for backup so that didn't happen again.

Just because she’s not visibly shown in every page in a book she’s not the main character of. There’s a reason he didn’t go aerial anymore and it’s stated in the comic. Punisher was afraid to confront Carol he wasn’t afraid against Stark. Which is ironic given Tony should be better equipped with the armor than Punisher.

He wasn't afraid of Stark? He literally prepped by planting gasoline, threatened the lives of prisoners/Avengers from a fire, and then collapsed a tunnel and building on top of him in order to avoid fighting him. Then when Tony came back he blasted him in the face (eyes to ruin the sensors) and then attempted to fly away. After Tony grabbed and slammed him, then he decided to fight because he knew he had no choice.

No one suggested Iron Man can’t harm Carol either. His issue of late has been being able to beat her in a one on one fight without prep.

You literally said he struggles to harm her. That she "tanks" it when she absorbs or is at best "slightly bothered". As a result, I showed what his repulsors could do to someone of her durability level. Your point here is that "well, yeah she absorbs his repulsors which explains why they don't work, but if they were actually powerful enough they'd still hurt her despite being absorbed like Thor's lightning (which is infinitely more powerful)". It's not much of a point. It'd be like if a Vision fan said "Sure, Iron Man's repulsors have been no-sold by Vision when he increased his mass and density, but someone like Thor (who is infinitely more powerful) can still hurt him." It's like, okay? Iron Man isn't as powerful as Thor, so why are we using him as a benchmark? It takes someone like Thor and that's supposed to make Tony look bad? Lol. Do you actually think that his repulsors probably still wouldn't do much if she didn't absorb them? Energy absorption makes a difference.

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ChampionJoe

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Stops at Herc at best