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#701 Posted by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467:  Well, instead of going over everything again, I'm going to disagree and leave it at that. =)
 
I say Cap wins.
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#702 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467: 
I was just being a turd.
 
But Rogers is bereft of his shield for this battle. Strictly H2H. While he is very very good at fighting, he is not the best. He is not even in the top 10. 
 
I just do not see him winning in the final outcome.
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#703 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon said:
" @Silver2467:  Well, instead of going over everything again, I'm going to disagree and leave it at that. =)  I say Cap wins. "
So, it took two pages of arguing with you meaninglessly just to incite an argument out of you, and then once you finally do present an argument and I respond, you decide to leave...... -_-
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#704 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik: I can agree with that. I think Cassandra wins, but I doubt it would be easy. 
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#705 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
" @erik: I can agree with that. I think Cassandra wins, but I doubt it would be easy.  "
Agreed.
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#706 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@Andferne said:
" @erik said:
" Cassandra might even take this easily. "
Highly doubt that. "
Kill joy.
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#707 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@jasraj said:
" Go Spidey15! 
  "
LOL, I don't feel like debating in this thread anymore. I have debated for like 20 pages. I think now it's enough. It seems my point was passed. 
=]
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#708 Edited by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@CaptainRodgers said:

" @spidey 15 said:

" @CaptainRodgers said:

" @spidey 15: i dont really understand what you said :/ "
You called us stubborns. But, at least we address the points that the guys that think that cap would win, make. We don't just say that Cass will win, without any argument or having an open mind. When i first come to the thread, i thought that Cass was faster than cap. But after seeing some arguments, i have concede that they should be equal. I also thought that Cass would dodge every of his attack. I still believe that she should be able to dodge most of his moves, but not all. So, are we still stubborn? =] "
@spidey 15:  I address the points too , i understand them all i just doubt Cass is as fast as she will ever be , and if she isn't Cap's faster . I conced the feats se's done but Cap's feats are just as impressive. Also i'm not calling you in particular stubbrn its the ones who base there entire arguement on Cap not being able to tag her once . I think he could and if he gets one clean blow its the fight over. But yeah not you in particular , the ones who saw people saying Cass agreed and refuse to sway. "
I see. But i don't believe that Cap can KOed her with just one punch. Cap was not be able to KO characters with less durability. It's not in his character.  
Also, Cass striking power is enough to KO cap after some hits and the same counts for Steve too. The difference is that cass has a lot better chances of landing a hit that cap has. 
=] 
 
@Superdemon: 

 Cap can tag Spiderman. Spiderman - who posses true precognition abilities. He doesn't have to "read" Cap - He already knows what Cap's going to do, yet Cap still manages to land blows. Cap is clearly the physical superior in this fight as well.  
   


Damn, i thought i have explained the circumstances of that fight already. Good to know that people ignore me...-___-  
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#709 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15: LOL. I thought you said you were done. :P
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#710 Edited by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:

" @superdemon said:

" @Silver2467:  Well, instead of going over everything again, I'm going to disagree and leave it at that. =)  I say Cap wins. "

So, it took two pages of arguing with you meaninglessly just to incite an argument out of you, and then once you finally do present an argument and I respond, you decide to leave...... -_- "
I'm not leaving. Don't worry. I'm still here. And everything I said  - I had already said before. All you had to do was search. The same counter arguments have been presented previously and I have responded to those as well. 
 
My opinion stands.
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#711 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467: LOL, it's not the first time that i do that. I just can not resist replying...lol
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#712 Posted by CaptainRodgers (1658 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15:
Perhaps not one hit just a little example, if he tags her she is definetly disorientated, and in a dizzy state i think he could land a few more , which would ko her. 
Yes Cass could hit him alot easier , he's a big guy with a lot of room to punch at, and she's great at dodging and reading , but hes an extremely skilled fighter with the greatest reaction time for any normal human  so i think he could at some pont tag her , and if he gets a gd hit , it could be the end of Cass. 
She could hit him to , it would also prove difficult to get a clean hit without a reversal on Cap but it'd take quite a few punches to KO the most durable normal human on earth . 
I'm not 100% but i think cap could hit her and if he does she'll feel it , and that would give him an easier opening for more .
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#713 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon: I have gone over some of these points before also. No one cares. I still addressed your post. 
 
But, not only that, you really expect me to believe that others have made these exact same points? Because even if that were true, simply directing me to another debate you had with someone else is irrelevant to a discussion you may have otherwise have with me. 

All of them have given Steve good fights without prep. This is not even true. 
 
No, when he has difficulty with these characters on a regular basis, it shows that he is not on par with Hulk. If you were to post in a Hulk vs Cap thread, who would you choose? Hulk, or at least you should. Cap fights street levelers because he is a street leveler. He has difficulty with street levelers more consistently than he does higher tier characters.  
 
No, he does not. BatMan has fought Despero, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, SuperMan, Triumph, Darkseid, etc., often times doing so without prep, and all of whom are on levels well beyond Namor or Hulk. So, no, Cap does not have more high end feats than he does. Even Cassandra has fought Superboy and Supergirl before, but those fights were either circumstantial or purely PIS. She is not on their level, and Steve is not on Hulk or Namor's level. BatMan, Cassandra, and Steve all more consistently have difficulty with street level characters, and they all perform feats that are strictly street level.  
 
Even if BatMan did lose to Steve, it would not be "soundly" by any means. He has physical feats comparable to Cap, even if he is physically inferior to some degree. His combat skill is equal to Steve's, and his strategic and tactical understanding is superior. You could make a case for Steve defeating BatMan. I take no issue with that, but saying that he wins "soundly" is just wrong. 
 
Then what difference does it make? As I mentioned above, fighting Hulk or Namor is in no way comparable to fighting Cassandra. The characters have completely different capabilities and offer a different battle. This is ABC logic that is not only PIS, but completely irrelevant to the fight. 
 
Cassandra is a better fighter. Without her body reading ability, she held her own against BatMan, who is just as skilled as Steve. She held her own against Deathstroke, beat Ravager, beat Shiva, proved superior to Black Canary, etc. She is a better fighter. Steve could hold his own against Cassandra, but his skill is not superior. 
 
So can Cassandra. 
 
I can agree that it would not be the major deciding factor in the fight, but she does have some operational speed feats that outweigh his. Her defeating multiple thugs before a bottle can drop, for instance, demonstrates combat speed, which is perfectly relevant to the fight. 
 
Steve tags SpiderMan because SpiderMan is not a skilled fighter, holds back against physically inferior foes (or else he would have killed Steve with a punch), can be strategically coordinated into positions that play into Cap's favor, etc. He does not possess a body reading ability that allows him to know what exactly what combat techniques his enemy will use before they do it. He has an ability that warns him to an impending danger just before it meets him. It is not a system that informs him what form of attack Steve will use. Besides, Cassandra has tagged characters faster than SpiderMan anyway. So?  
 
I asked you to present an argument for your opinion, and it took you two pages of arguing about nothing to do that. I could care less whether you have before. I have as well. It makes no difference.  "    

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#714 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15: Haha. I hear you. 
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#715 Edited by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467:  The thing is - I'm tired of going over the same points over and over. I really don't want to have the same conversation with you, or anyone else, again. I am simply stating my opinion from here on out until someone makes a point that has not been addressed yet. 
 
I am respecting your opinion. Respect mine, or just ignore me. Simple as that.
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#716 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon: 
Cassandra Cain wins.
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#717 Edited by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:

" @superdemon:  Cassandra Cain wins. "

I respect that. But I disagree.
 
And I wonder Why Silver isn't ragging on you for stating your opinion with no reason. lol.
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#718 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon said:

And I wonder Why Silver isn't ragging on you for stating your opinion with no reason. lol. 

Because, one, if I asked Erik for an argument, he would present one without starting a meaningless discussion that lasts two pages, and two, I agree with his consensus anyway. There is no reason for me to ask for an argument. 
 
And your attempts at trying to insult me are failing. 
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#719 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon: 
 
He is free to address it if he wants. But he seems to agree with me and I did put forth an argument many pages ago.
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#720 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
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#721 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
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#722 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik: The funny thing is that Rogers still had his shield in that thread.
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#723 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik: Haha. I think the other thread was better. It had few fanboys in it, for both Steve and Cassandra. 
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#724 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
" @erik: Haha. I think the other thread was better. It had few fanboys in it, for both Steve and Cassandra.  "
Yeah I certainly can agree with both points.
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#725 Edited by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:

" @superdemon said:

And I wonder Why Silver isn't ragging on you for stating your opinion with no reason. lol. 

Because, one, if I asked Erik for an argument, he would present one without starting a meaningless discussion that lasts two pages, and two, I agree with his consensus anyway. There is no reason for me to ask for an argument.  And your attempts at trying to insult me are failing.  "
Insulting you? I fail to see how I've insulted you. 
 
@erik said:

" @superdemon:   He is free to address it if he wants.But he seems to agree with me and I did put forth an argument many pages ago. "

Good man.
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#726 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@CaptainRodgers said:
" @spidey 15: Perhaps not one hit just a little example, if he tags her she is definetly disorientated, and in a dizzy state i think he could land a few more , which would ko her. Yes Cass could hit him alot easier , he's a big guy with a lot of room to punch at, and she's great at dodging and reading , but hes an extremely skilled fighter with the greatest reaction time for any normal human  so i think he could at some pont tag her , and if he gets a gd hit , it could be the end of Cass. She could hit him to , it would also prove difficult to get a clean hit without a reversal on Cap but it'd take quite a few punches to KO the most durable normal human on earth . I'm not 100% but i think cap could hit her and if he does she'll feel it , and that would give him an easier opening for more . "
I don't see any reason why Cass shouldn't be able to roll with the punch. And her additional durability will decrease the damage even more. 
Cap being a huge man has nothing to do with the fact that Cass has better chances of landing any hit. Cap has dodged a lot faster opponents than her. Cassandra is just skilled enough to dodge him. 
I'm not saying than Cap is not skilled enough to tag her, but Cass has the advantage of body reading, something that logically would give to cap an extremely hard time of landing any hit for the most part of the fight. 
Also i can say the same about Cap. Batgirl's striking power is pretty good, she has broken super human sculls before. I don't see why she shouldn't be able to hurt him. But of course cap can roll with the punch too, something that wil decrease the damage. This is the reason on why one punch will not make the difference here. 
=] 
@erik: IIRC, your argument here was, " I'm a Captain America fanboy, when i say Cass wins it's a fact ". 
 
Some of the best arguments ever. 
=]
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#727 Edited by entropy_aegis (20737 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon:
Batman by himself near beat general eiling and funnily he did in a way that could be considered legit,but since you keep on bringing namor ,hulk ,ironamnetc(like most captain america supporters do) i'd like to state that batman kicked spectre,darkseid and made them bleed,he oneshotted wonder woman,choked out lobo,one shotted guy gardener and lots of other stuff which i'm too lazy to write.
and as for the cap is enhanced argument,sorry buddy but it does not work,there is no such thing as the super soldier formula in DC if cap is superior to bats then it will be due to feats,not based on a concept that does not even exist in batmans  universe.
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#728 Posted by Static Shock (52990 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
"Are we talking about the same instance? Because all I remember was Dick wall jumping toward her, landing a kick to her face, and then Cassandra moved forward and held him by the throat against a wall. Because when you say fighting back, you make it sound as if the fight lasted longer than it actually was. It could be that I am just read too much into your statements, but that was just how it came across to me. 
 
Either way, your point is noted, but that is not to say I agree with that instance. Dick's connecting a kick on her when she could, in actually, beat him relatively easily only carries so much weight, in my opinion. Given the fact that she has held out against Deathstroke, BatMan, beaten Shiva, beaten Ravager, quickly proved superior to Black Canary, etc., Dick's managing to last so well against her was just poor writing, in my opinion. I acknowledge your point, but the example you gave is just lacking in validity for me.
If it was in an Outsiders book with both Dick and Cassandra on the cover, then yes. It was more than just a kick, IIRC. They were trading blows after that, before Alfred came and interrupted the fight. Even if she held out against other fighters, it doesn't take away from the fact that Nightwing connected hits on her. It may seem like an invalid example, but it's not like Nightwing defeated her or anything. 
 
@Silver2467 said:
It matters because she has a combat speed showings that I have never seen Steve replicate. I said this already, but I'm not of the opinion that she would be able to run circles around Steve or dodge every single attack he throws. I am of the impression that her combat speed showings should be weighed in, since I have never seen Steve perform a showing similar to that. He does, of course, have extremely high combat speed, but feat for feat, Cassandra should have a certain advantage in that. You mentioned his reflexes in comparison with her combat speed, but I was never even addressing that. Obviously, both have the reflexive capability to dodge, parry, block, and counterattack each other's strikes, but that fact on its own is not necessarily a sign that her combat speed is annulled or irrelevant because of his reflexes. BatMan could react to some of her strikes, but she is still faster than he is in combat, based on feats. Having said that, I have also said that her speed advantage is not such that it would be the deciding factor in the battle, but based on showings, I do think Cassandra has superior combat speed. Just to repeat to myself to get my point across, again, not to say that Steve would be overwhelmed by her speed or anything like that. He could keep up with her purely hand to hand. But, simply because he can react to her strikes doesn't automatically mean he will. Cassandra has the reflexes enough to avoid his attacks also, but he could still connect blows. Both can and likely will take hits from the other. What I think it comes down to is the fact that Cassandra has a somewhat higher level of combat skill than Steve (being superior to BatMan, beating Shiva, etc.), has a slight combat speed advantage, her body reading is a factor (to some degree at least), and her striking power is enough to cause legitimate injury to Steve. "
I understand.
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#729 Posted by entropy_aegis (20737 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock:
If i recall DC was in an anti cassandra mood at that time,in that same series she struggled against green arrow,was one shotted by nightwing in teen titans,and her second mini was far from stellar.and after that she disappeared into limbo.
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#730 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said: 
If it was in an Outsiders book with both Dick and Cassandra on the cover, then yes. It was more than just a kick, IIRC. They were trading blows after that, before Alfred came and interrupted the fight. Even if she held out against other fighters, it doesn't take away from the fact that Nightwing connected hits on her. It may seem like an invalid example, but it's not like Nightwing defeated her or anything.   
I would have to check. Some of the events in that Outsiders series are somewhat of a blur to me. The series it self was interesting, in some ways, but really dry in others. 
   
But, either way, I got your point. I may not necessarily agree with the example you gave, but it makes sense. 
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#731 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15: 
I was thinking of the other thread. Someone already showed me the error.
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#732 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:
" @spidey 15:  I was thinking of the other thread. Someone already showed me the error. "
I know, i was just kidding with my statement. 
=]
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#733 Posted by difficlus (10659 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#734 Posted by PowerHerc (86188 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap wins decisively, but does so as nicely a possible due to her youth and age disadvantages.
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#735 Posted by manx422 (486 posts) - - Show Bio

 Batgirl

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#736 Posted by entropy_aegis (20737 posts) - - Show Bio
@PowerHerc said:
"Cap wins decisively, but does so as nicely a possible due to her youth and age disadvantages. "

???
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#737 Posted by jasraj (4923 posts) - - Show Bio
Cap with his shield=Cap wins 
Cap without his shield=Cass loses
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#738 Posted by Mercy_ (94916 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassandra Cain. 

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#739 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio

Cain. 
 
Bump due to dupe. 

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#740 Posted by comicdude23 (11902 posts) - - Show Bio
@jasraj said:
"Cap with his shield=Cap wins 
Cap without his shield=Cass loses
"
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#741 Posted by PirateKing69 (4235 posts) - - Show Bio

Cass wins this

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#742 Posted by comicdude23 (11902 posts) - - Show Bio

She obviously wins in h2h...

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#743 Posted by Captain_Justice95 (437 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kentaxx said:

"BatgirlEven Deathstroke has admitted that he cant beat her in hand to hand and Deathstroke would destroy Cap "


captain america's shits he takes in the mourning are stronger than batgirl. Captain America wins in 30 seconds 

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#744 Posted by Fresh0133 (534 posts) - - Show Bio

How is she going to win H2H?  Not sure how many folks on here are familiar with the Super Soldier Serum but the SS has evolved Cap's brain as well as his physical abilities, if he can see it he can do it, you don't think he's spent more than a few evenings at home watching  martial arts?  And how to defend against them.  He can see faster than she can move,  you don't think he's going to react in kind?  Cap don't loose and he doesn't loose here.

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#745 Posted by entropy_aegis (20737 posts) - - Show Bio
@Fresh03:
Cap has lost and will lose here too.
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#746 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassandra wins.

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#747 Posted by Fresh0133 (534 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis: 
 To a high end human?  Not likely, Cap is the peak of human, Cassandra is awesome don't get me wrong, but no matter the PIS and WIS she's still human when did she become enhanced human?  Never happened.  Cap is beyond what she's capable of, hell, I'd call this one 10/10 for Cap on one shots, Cassie's quick, but the ain't Cap fast.
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#748 Posted by beatboks1 (9829 posts) - - Show Bio
@Fresh03 said:
" How is she going to win H2H?  Not sure how many folks on here are familiar with the Super Soldier Serum but the SS has evolved Cap's brain as well as his physical abilities, if he can see it he can do it, you don't think he's spent more than a few evenings at home watching  martial arts?  And how to defend against them.  He can see faster than she can move,  you don't think he's going to react in kind?  Cap don't loose and he doesn't loose here. "
Spoken like someone who doesn't know squat about Cassandra.
1. The SSS has given Steve enhancements that are less than those given to Deathstroke by his experimentation. Deathstroke has lost to Cain and admitted he would loose in a straight up fight. Slade uses a higher % of his brain and thinks and reacts 9 to 10 times faster than a normal combatant.
2. Cass was trained by almost the entire cadre of the worlds greatest martial artists and assassins. She was trained since birth and the focus was on combat to the point where in her formative years she was taught combat in loo of even language. It was the sole dedicated thigh taught to her until her teenage years (the reason she can read and acurately predict the movements of others)
3. She can move fast enough to dodge a fired bullet at point blank range, and disarm her assailant before they could cock the trigger again. So I seriously doubt he's going to out move her.
4. Steve has lost to characters that Cassandra would absolutely own, and Cass has defeated characters with better combat abilities and greater enhancements than Steve.
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#749 Posted by PirateKing69 (4235 posts) - - Show Bio
@beatboks1: hey by any chance do you have scans of Cass beating Deathstroke?
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#750 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Fresh03 said:
" @entropy_aegis:   To a high end human?  Not likely, Cap is the peak of human, Cassandra is awesome don't get me wrong, but no matter the PIS and WIS she's still human when did she become enhanced human?  Never happened.  Cap is beyond what she's capable of, hell, I'd call this one 10/10 for Cap on one shots, Cassie's quick, but the ain't Cap fast. "
Cassie is peak too. Her feats and training prove that. 
Not that it matter because her superior skills combined with her physical stats and her body reading ability is enough to beat cap. 
Also, whatever cap has done in terms of speed, cassandra has done as well. Also speed is not as relevant here as you think anyway. 
=]