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#651 Posted by entropy_aegis (20698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock:
batman has blitzed people in a flash like manner (return of bruce wayne 5)
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#652 Posted by Static Shock (52990 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis: Wasn't Bruce powered up at the time?
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#653 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
" @Static Shock: Sorry Static. I know that you already have a debate with Silver, but i just want to explain, why i believe that Batgirl being tagged so many times and so easy, it does not really make much of a sense. I do believe that cap can tag her, but not as easy as many characters have done. I believe that it will be extremely hard. 
 
Here is my explanation 
 

 Cass has already peak human reflexes seeing from her feats. Those reflexes alone( that are actually DD's level ) are enough for me to know that she will be able to dodge cap( not saying that cap can not react to her hits ). So having the ability to read your opponent on the level that Cass dose is a great bonus for her. Those statements like " the body reading is not a big advantage against top MA " does not make sense. Most people have dodged other character's with their reaction time alone. Cass has equal reaction time but the advantage of having the ability to predict what her opponents will do. So unless they used their knowledge and skills, tagging Cassandra should not make any sense. She has the reaction to dodge them and the ability to predict their moves. 
Unless cap is aware of that ability, i don't see her laying any hand on her. Unless he realized that, before he would be beaten. Then i could see him taking the win.     

=] "
Cap without the SSS was able to defeat Daredevil... And his radar sense would give a similar advantage to her move reading. Just saying...
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#654 Posted by The_Ghostshell (84303 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cochise said:
" @entropy_aegis said:
" @CaptainRodgers: if training matters then cassandra clean sweeps, she was trained by david cain , batman and bronze tiger among others,who was cap trained by?some guy named monroe. "
Cap is as good as or better than any of those people? David Cain? Please. His big claim to fame is that he trained Cassandra. Now proof of Cassandra's skill level is... she was trained by David Cain. Circular logic. Cap would wipe the floor with David Cain. "
David Cain also trained Bruce Wayne, the League of Assassins, and Lady Shiva. He's an old drunk now but even in Cass' second solo mini he was credited with stalemating Deathstroke during an assassination mission. Of course he has very little on panel feats, he's a C-List character at best. But his written exploits put him near the top of the Human Martial Arts/Combat food chain. Cass' training started at birth. As a baby she broke Cain's thumb and at age 8 she killed a man with her bare hands mimicking a technique she was taught by Cain. Even when Cap was training he had a life. He had people to talk to, places to go, etc. Cass simply lived combat. All she did was train. And not just sparring. She was thrown into death matches. Hell, Cain would even sneak up on her and shoot her (or at her) and even when hit she didnt flinch. Thats hardcore.
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#655 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler: I know who has MY vote for father of the year...
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#656 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida: I have never seen anything that suggest that DD's move reading is on the same level of Cass'. And cap beating an opponent, that was supposed to be less skilled than him and he also knew him( how he fights and stuff like that ), it does not mean he can beat Cass. 
=]
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#657 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
" @Ferro Vida: I have never seen anything that suggest that DD's move reading is on the same level of Cass'. And cap beating an opponent, that was supposed to be less skilled than him and he also knew him( how he fights and stuff like that ), it does not mean he can beat Cass. =] "
I was just punching holes in your argument... xD And I would rate DD's radar above her move reading, so a certain extent, since he doesn't have to be looking at Cap for it to work. Also, Daredevil knew how Cap fought as well, and I would again like to stress that he did not have the super soldier serum in him.
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#658 Posted by the human Juggernaut (7279 posts) - - Show Bio
@Torpor said:
" @Static Shock said:
" @Torpor said:
" The Cap has KOed 80 tonners like Rhino in a single move which puts him on a different level than Cain.  "
LOL. "
I'm almost insulted that you would laugh at his feats.  You must really not like the United States or dislike Cap for personal reasons.  Either way he beats your girl easily. "
i didn't realize General Glory posted at comicvine
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#659 Posted by The_Ghostshell (84303 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida said:
" @Gambler: I know who has MY vote for father of the year... "
Ha! Right? Pretty heartless dude.
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#660 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler: I'm guessing that's where Millar took some of his inspiration for Big Daddy and Hit Girl from. 
 
@the human Juggernaut: Not anymore, he doesn't
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#661 Posted by Static Shock (52990 posts) - - Show Bio
@the human Juggernaut: Gambler banned Torpor several months ago. LOL
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#662 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @Ferro Vida: I have never seen anything that suggest that DD's move reading is on the same level of Cass'. And cap beating an opponent, that was supposed to be less skilled than him and he also knew him( how he fights and stuff like that ), it does not mean he can beat Cass. =] "
I was just punching holes in your argument... xD And I would rate DD's radar above her move reading, so a certain extent, since he doesn't have to be looking at Cap for it to work. Also, Daredevil knew how Cap fought as well, and I would again like to stress that he did not have the super soldier serum in him. "
LOL, you asshole...XD 
His radar is above move reading at certain things. His radar has increased his awareness and reaction time at peak levels. OK, you already know these stuff...lol  
But Cass has already peak reflexes with body reading ability, a lot greater than Matt's. Of course Matt does not have to see in order to be aware of things or attacks( Ok, he can not see anyway ), but that does not really put him above Cass. Cass won;t be distracted by anything and for a while he won't be looking at cap. So DD having the advantage of not have to see, it does not put him above Cass. 
Indeed, DD knew cap, but cap was still superior to him, in terms of skills. So a combination of better skills and knowledge, should give him a slight advantage. Also cap was pretty serious during that fight, while DD was not. Also, i think Cap without the SSS, is close to DD physically. 
=]
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#663 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@the human Juggernaut said:
" @Torpor said:
" @Static Shock said:
" @Torpor said:
" The Cap has KOed 80 tonners like Rhino in a single move which puts him on a different level than Cain.  "
LOL. "
I'm almost insulted that you would laugh at his feats.  You must really not like the United States or dislike Cap for personal reasons.  Either way he beats your girl easily. "
i didn't realize General Glory posted at comicvine "
LOL
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#664 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15: Again, I was just messing with you. x)
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#665 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida said:
" @spidey 15: Again, I was just messing with you. x) "
And again, you are an asshole...LOL...XP
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#666 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15: For what it's worth, I only do that to people who I think are among the best. Ask Morpheus, K4tz, Vance, Dane, Static... 
 
You've come a long way and are easily one of the best debaters around now. AND you're not an @sshole.
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#667 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida said:
" @spidey 15: For what it's worth, I only do that to people who I think are among the best. Ask Morpheus, K4tz, Vance, Dane, Static...  You've come a long way and are easily one of the best debaters around now. AND you're not an @sshole. "
Awww, thanks Ferro. Coming from you( one of the best debaters...) means a lot. =D =D =D =D =D =D =D =D =D =D =D =D 
And i was kidding...you are not ans asshole either.... 
=P
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#668 Posted by Supreme Cosmic (914 posts) - - Show Bio

Batsie is deadly! Almost Shiva deadly still Caps will manage to pull off a great - - you know- - - loss

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#669 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15: Thanks :) And I know I am, don't worry xD
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#670 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida said:
" @spidey 15: Thanks :) And I know I am, don't worry xD "
lol
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#671 Posted by entropy_aegis (20698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock:
I dont think so,the hyperadapter only navigated his course throughout the timeline,and now that i think about it i dont even know why i even stated that LOL.
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#672 Posted by Cochise (719 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis said:
" @Cochise: i love how you picked cain but left out bats and bronze tiger. "
Well, in terms of actual time spent training, I'd say Batman had a very minimal effect on Cassandra, since by the time he met her she was almost all grown up. Besides, her fans are always going on about how much better she is than him, so... =}
 
As for Bronze Tiger, we really only see them interact once, when she spars with him. I don't think he trained her for any length of time. Besides, Cap would pwn BT anyway.
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#673 Posted by entropy_aegis (20698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cochise:
I never said those guys would beat cap,someone claimed training matters(i disagree) and they said it as if it favoured cap,bats and tiger would maul the guys who trained cap.
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#674 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said: 

 I don't recall anything stating that she wasn't interesting in fighting. It's not like she tried to restrain Nightwing at the beginning or convince him to not to fight. She was fighting back, and no move reading was present. I don't doubt that she could floor him, but that's not the point I was making, anyway.    

Are we talking about the same instance? Because all I remember was Dick wall jumping toward her, landing a kick to her face, and then Cassandra moved forward and held him by the throat against a wall. Because when you say fighting back, you make it sound as if the fight lasted longer than it actually was. It could be that I am just read too much into your statements, but that was just how it came across to me. 
 
Either way, your point is noted, but that is not to say I agree with that instance. Dick's connecting a kick on her when she could, in actually, beat him relatively easily only carries so much weight, in my opinion. Given the fact that she has held out against Deathstroke, BatMan, beaten Shiva, beaten Ravager, quickly proved superior to Black Canary, etc., Dick's managing to last so well against her was just poor writing, in my opinion. I acknowledge your point, but the example you gave is just lacking in validity for me.
 

In regards to the first statement, I don't see why Captain America cannot tag her since he also possesses comparable physical stats and is highly skilled.   

I actually never said that Steve would be incapable of landing hits on her. As I said during my discussions with Spidey (and as I think I at least alluded to with you), Steve could keep up with her in a fight and land hits. Like I mentioned earlier, Cassandra is not so fast that she will be dancing circles around him in a fight. I can very well see Steve or other characters with similar skill levels and physical traits managing to land blows on her. However, I stand by my assertion that landing a few hits on Cassandra would not necessarily mean he would win. 
 

The fight I was referring to was the one that started in the graveyard, and ended up in the streets.    

Alright. Thanks. 
 

This isn't to say that she can't be tagged if in top physical condition.   

Fair enough. I never meant to insinuate that she was untouchable, but based on her showings against formidable opponents, it should logically require an enemy with a decent degree of combat knowledge/physical stats (which, of course, is the case in a fight with Steve; I was just making a point).
 

I think the fact that he was able to trip her up, on top of the other instances of her being tagged, supports the fact that her move-reading isn't perfect. Low showing? Yes. But, still....   

Alright. I understand the point you were trying to make, but I can only take that fight so seriously. To me, it just seemed like horrible writing on her part. 
 
But alright. 
 

Even if she applies it more consistently, it doesn't mean much for the simple fact that it's mostly applied against normal human targets that lack the fighting skills that she does or any level of reaction time or enhanced perception. It doesn't mean that she can successfully blitz Steve or that her speed would be a deciding factor in this fight for her. 

I can see your point. Actually, it was probably a mistake on my part to use her blitzing opponents as an example since that would show more travel speed than anything else, which is irrelevant in this fight. I also never meant to say that she could blitz Steve. So, my bad for even bringing it up. 
 

As far as her ability to throw strikes faster than a bottle would drop, it is nothing more than a display of striking speed, but it's still only applied against normal humans. I don't think it would matter than much against Steve. Due to the fact that he possesses a considerable level of reaction time and enhanced perception because of the SSS, I don't see a speed advantage, at all. I have never seen Steve blitz anyone to my knowledge, but like her ability to move faster than normal humans can perceive her, he has done the same against normal humans also. So, where is the speed advantage, exactly? "

It matters because she has a combat speed showings that I have never seen Steve replicate. I said this already, but I'm not of the opinion that she would be able to run circles around Steve or dodge every single attack he throws. I am of the impression that her combat speed showings should be weighed in, since I have never seen Steve perform a showing similar to that. He does, of course, have extremely high combat speed, but feat for feat, Cassandra should have a certain advantage in that. You mentioned his reflexes in comparison with her combat speed, but I was never even addressing that. Obviously, both have the reflexive capability to dodge, parry, block, and counterattack each other's strikes, but that fact on its own is not necessarily a sign that her combat speed is annulled or irrelevant because of his reflexes. BatMan could react to some of her strikes, but she is still faster than he is in combat, based on feats. Having said that, I have also said that her speed advantage is not such that it would be the deciding factor in the battle, but based on showings, I do think Cassandra has superior combat speed. Just to repeat to myself to get my point across, again, not to say that Steve would be overwhelmed by her speed or anything like that. He could keep up with her purely hand to hand. But, simply because he can react to her strikes doesn't automatically mean he will. Cassandra has the reflexes enough to avoid his attacks also, but he could still connect blows. Both can and likely will take hits from the other. What I think it comes down to is the fact that Cassandra has a somewhat higher level of combat skill than Steve (being superior to BatMan, beating Shiva, etc.), has a slight combat speed advantage, her body reading is a factor (to some degree at least), and her striking power is enough to cause legitimate injury to Steve.
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#675 Posted by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio

Steve wins for reasons stated many pages back. No argument presented since then is enough to sway my vote.

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#676 Posted by entropy_aegis (20698 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon:
The reasons stated for cassandra were actually much better.
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#677 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon: Cassandra wins for reason stated many pages back. No argument presented since then is enough to sway my vote. 
 
....... 
 
Now if only it worked that way. Present an argument, or leave the thread. Randomly shouting "Cap PWNS!" without supporting it with a case proves nothing. 
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#678 Posted by entropy_aegis (20698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467:
LOL
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#679 Edited by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:

" @superdemon: Cassandra wins for reason stated many pages back. No argument presented since then is enough to sway my vote.  .......  Now if only it worked that way. Present an argument, or leave the thread. Randomly shouting "Cap PWNS!" without supporting it with a case proves nothing.  "

I have present a case - Many pages back. I do not feel the need to repeat myself. No argument that you have presented (or anyone for that matter) is enough to change my mind or even provoke a counter argument. 
 
All of your points have been addressed.  This thread is simply going in circles.
 
Cap wins.
 
@entropy_aegis said:
" @superdemon: The reasons stated for cassandra were actually much better. "
lol. Not in this thread.
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#680 Posted by jasraj (4923 posts) - - Show Bio
Go Spidey15! 
 
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#681 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon said: 
I have present a case - Many pages back. I do not feel the need to repeat myself. No argument that you have presented (or anyone for that matter) is enough to change my mind or even provoke a counter argument. 
 
All of your points have been addressed.  This thread is simply going in circles.
 
Cap wins.   
So, basically, you have it dead-set in your mind that Steve wins, and, as such, you will claim that he wins, no matter what arguments are presented, no matter what scans are posted, no matter what proof is presented? In other words, you are completely disregarding everyone else in the thread for your own Cap fanboyism.
 
Thanks for letting me know. 
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#682 Edited by entropy_aegis (20698 posts) - - Show Bio



 
 

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#683 Edited by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:

" @superdemon said: 

I have present a case - Many pages back. I do not feel the need to repeat myself. No argument that you have presented (or anyone for that matter) is enough to change my mind or even provoke a counter argument. 
 
All of your points have been addressed.  This thread is simply going in circles.
 
Cap wins.   

So, basically, you have it dead-set in your mind that Steve wins, and, as such, you will claim that he wins, no matter what arguments are presented, no matter what scans are posted, no matter what proof is presented? 
 
In other words, you are completely disregarding everyone else in the thread for your own Cap fanboyism. Thanks for letting me know.  "
No, but nice try.  =) It's funny how you answered your own question for me, too. lol.
 
The arguments presented for Cap are better. Plain and simple. If you can provide an argument that will change my mind I will gladly change my mind. However, you have not provided such case. Nor has anyone.
 
Cap wins.
 
@entropy_aegis:  Troll
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#684 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon said: 
No, but nice try.  =)
 
The arguments presented for Cap are better. Plain and simple. If you can provide an argument that will change my mind I will gladly change my mind. However, you have not provided such case. Nor has anyone.   Cap wins.
Then analyze, reiterate, and explain these ever so wonderful arguments for Cap for all of us who are too stupid to present anything legit for Cassandra.  
 
Once again, you disregard everything anyone says for Cassandra for your own Cap fanboyism. Plain and simple. 
 
@entropy_aegis:  Troll "
Stop being immature. Present an argument, or leave the thread. 
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#685 Posted by entropy_aegis (20698 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon:
Is that the best you can do.
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#686 Posted by CaptainRodgers (1658 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
" @CaptainRodgers said:
" @spidey 15: i dont really understand what you said :/ "
You called us stubborns. But, at least we address the points that the guys that think that cap would win, make. We don't just say that Cass will win, without any argument or having an open mind. When i first come to the thread, i thought that Cass was faster than cap. But after seeing some arguments, i have concede that they should be equal. I also thought that Cass would dodge every of his attack. I still believe that she should be able to dodge most of his moves, but not all. So, are we still stubborn? =] "

@spidey 15:  
I address the points too , i understand them all i just doubt Cass is as fast as she will ever be , and if she isn't Cap's faster . 
I conced the feats se's done but Cap's feats are just as impressive. 
Also i'm not calling you in particular stubbrn its the ones who base there entire arguement on Cap not being able to tag her once . 
I think he could and if he gets one clean blow its the fight over. 
But yeah not you in particular , the ones who saw people saying Cass agreed and refuse to sway.
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#687 Edited by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:

" @superdemon said: 

No, but nice try.  =)
 
The arguments presented for Cap are better. Plain and simple. If you can provide an argument that will change my mind I will gladly change my mind. However, you have not provided such case. Nor has anyone.   Cap wins.
Then analyze, reiterate, and explain these ever so wonderful arguments for Cap for all of us who are too stupid to present anything legit for Cassandra.  
 
Once again, you disregard everything anyone says for Cassandra for your own Cap fanboyism. Plain and simple. 
 
@entropy_aegis:  Troll "
Stop being immature. Present an argument, or leave the thread.  "
I already have presented arguments. I've told you this more than once. Comprehend the sentences I type or don't reply to me. You are probably the most stubborn, immature poster on this site that I've come across thus far. If you want to see my arguments, flip through the pages and read them. Quote them, and present a counter argument.  
 
I haven't disregarding anything. You're putting words into my mouth and if you keep it up you'll be receiving a PM from a mod very shortly.
 
Everything you've posted has been addressed by me or other posters.  Deal with it. Your Cass fanboyism shines through your petty attempts at being witty and knowledgeable. Relax, dude. It's a fictional debate. 
 
And me immature? I'm not the one who posts immature images and puts words into other people mouths to try and look good. 
 
lol. Sorry dude. Failure can be avoided. You just need to relax and try harder. Maybe you should leave the thread before you have a stroke or something. Just a thought.
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#688 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon said: 

I already have presented arguments.  I've told you this more than once. Comprehend the sentences I type or don't reply to me. 

Not to me, you haven't. And, no, you did not say that. You said that there was this undeniable proof that Steve wins on the previous pages, supposedly proven over and over again, but none of us could ever accept it. 
 

You are probably the most stubborn, immature poster on this site that I've come across thus far.  

All I asked is that you make an argument. If that it is so hard, then just say so. 
 

I haven't disregarding anything.   

You said yourself that no argument could sway you from your standpoint. That would be prematurely disregarding people's arguments. 
 

You're putting words into my mouth and if you keep it up you'll be receiving a PM from a mod very shortly.   

LOL. Right. 
 

Everything you've posted has been addressed my me or other posters.  Deal with it. Your Cass fanboyism shines through your petty attempts at being witty and knowledgeable. Relax, dude. It's a fictional debate.    

This is a laugh. I like Steve more than I do Cassandra, and at least I can address the arguments presented by other posters. You yourself said that no one's argument could sway you from your view on the matter. That is called fanboyism. 
 

And me immature? I'm not the one who posts immature images and puts words into other people mouths to try and look good.   

You are the one who failed to present an argument when asked for it. It speaks volumes. 
 

lol. Sorry dude. Failure can be avoided. You just need to relax and try harder. Maybe you should leave the thread before you have a stroke or something. Just a thought. "

Or maybe you could present a case for the character you claim wins instead of avoiding the issue and actually stating yourself that nothing could sway you from your position. 
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#689 Posted by jasraj (4923 posts) - - Show Bio
@jasraj said:
"Go Spidey15! 
  "
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#690 Edited by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:

 Not to me, you haven't. And, no, you did not say that. You said that there was this undeniable proof that Steve wins on the previous pages, supposedly proven over and over again, but none of us could ever accept it.

I didn't say that once. Again, you're putting words into my mouth. Stop.  

All I asked is that you make an argument. If that it is so hard, then just say so.

 SMH. I have made an argument. Many times in this thread. Again, search through, find em, and if you want you can reply. 

 This is a laugh. I like Steve more than I do Cassandra, and at least I can address the arguments presented by other posters. You yourself said that no one's argument could sway you from your view on the matter. That is called fanboyism.

Wow. Com-pre-hension. I said this because everything you or anyone else is saying has already been said for Cass. Steve's arguments are better. Unless you can provide something new that turns the tables, then no argument presented THUS FAR will change my vote. 

 You are the one who failed to present an argument when asked for it. It speaks volumes.

Ignoring that fact that I have already presented many arguments and that you are failing to search through and find them speaks volumes as well.

 Or maybe you could present a case for the character you claim wins instead of avoiding the issue and actually stating yourself that nothing could sway you from your position.  

Again - Understand what I'm saying before you reply, please. It really makes you look bad.
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#691 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon said: 

I didn't say that once. Again, you're putting words into my mouth. Stop.     

No argument that you have presented (or anyone for that matter) is enough to change my mind or even provoke a counter argument.      

This is exactly what you said. I respond to it accordingly.  
 

 SMH. I have made an argument. Many times in this thread. Again, search through, find em, and if you want you can reply.    

Present them yourself. I have made arguments for this is in more than one thread, but I never tell anyone else to just go searching for them. I make the argument. And honestly, if the supposed "fact" that Steve wins is as obvious as you say it is, then proving it should be simple. Make an argument. 
 

Wow. Com-pre-hension. I said this because everything you or anyone else is saying has already been said for Cass. Steve's arguments are better. Unless you can provide something new that turns the tables, then no argument presented THUS FAR will change my vote.  

 No argument that you have presented (or anyone for that matter) is enough to change my mind or even provoke a counter argument.    

I defer you back to what you yourself said. 
 
And how would you know whether or not I or anyone else can present an argument that would "turn the tables" anyway? Unless you can address the arguments presented for yourself, discredit them with a response, and thus prove your point, then your insistence on claiming that everything that needs to be proven already has is meaningless.
      

Ignoring that fact that I have already presented many arguments and that you are failing to search through and find them speaks volumes as well.   

Not to me. Present them yourself. I am not asking you to go search for arguments that I made in other threads. Discuss with other users the same way. Make an argument here and now, or at least quote the arguments you presented previously. 
 
I could also address the fact that a few pages, I made an argument against something you said, and you never responded to it. You laughed and ignored it. That speaks volumes about your ability to debate.
 

Again - Understand what I'm saying before you reply, please. It really makes you look bad. "

Present an argument. 
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#692 Edited by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:

I didn't say that once. Again, you're putting words into my mouth. Stop.     

No argument that you have presented (or anyone for that matter) is enough to change my mind or even provoke a counter argument.      

This is exactly what you said. I respond to it accordingly. 
Exactly. "Have presented" is past tense. I never said that "anything anyone will say or ever says will change my vote".  So no, you have not responded accordingly.
 
Stop putting words into my mouth.

 SMH. I have made an argument. Many times in this thread. Again, search through, find em, and if you want you can reply.    

Present them yourself. I have made arguments for this is in more than one thread, but I never tell anyone else to just go searching for them. I make the argument. And honestly, if the supposed "fact" that Steve wins is as obvious as you say it is, then proving it should be simple. Make an argument.
I have presented them. I have presented arguments. What are you not understanding about this. Respect my opinion, or leave the thread. You don't tell people to search for the argument because you're you. I'm me. I've presented arguments for Cap, and I've read all argument for Cass. Cap wins.

Ignoring that fact that I have already presented many arguments and that you are failing to search through and find them speaks volumes as well.   

Not to me. Present them yourself. I am not asking you to go search for arguments that I made in other threads. Discuss with other users the same way. Make an argument here and now, or at least quote the arguments you presented previously. 
 
I could also address the fact that a few pages, I made an argument against something you said, and you never responded to it. You laughed and ignored it. That speaks volumes about your ability to debate.
And who exactly are you? Are you of some noble importance? I couldn't care less if you've read my arguments. If you're that interested, search the thread, find them, and then respond accordingly.  And now you're acknowledging the fact that I've presented arguments? lol. Wow. And yes, I laughed at your response because it was laughable. And on top of that you're no fun to debate with. You ignore facts and basically stick your fingers in your ears. You take the debate way too seriously, especially for fictional characters.

Again - Understand what I'm saying before you reply, please. It really makes you look bad. "

Present an argument.  
Arguments have been presented. Search the thread for them.

 
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#693 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon said: 

Exactly. "Have presented" is past tense. I never said that "anything anyone will say or ever says will change my vote".  So no, you have not responded accordingly.
 
Stop putting words into my mouth.   

No argument that you have presented (or anyone for that matter) is enough to change my mind or even provoke a counter argument. 

You addressed where you stated about what I have already said but not the following. First, you say, "anyone for that matter" also. In other words, you said that no argument anyone presents is enough to change your mind. Second, you specifically say that no argument is enough to even provoke a counter argument. That is dismissive. Why not present a counter argument? If you can never even engage in the debate in the first place, then you have proven nothing.  
 
If I misinterpret this, I apologize, but all I really want you to do is present an argument. I am sorry if I misinterpret what you say, but your dismissive attitude and failure to even present an argument do no favors for your credibility. That said, present an argument.

I have presented them. I have presented arguments. What are you not understanding about this. Respect my opinion, or leave the thread. You don't tell people to search for the argument because you're you. I'm me. I've presented arguments for Cap, and I've read all argument for Cass. Cap wins.  

Why do you continue to dodge this? All I ask is that you make an argument. I could care less whether or not you already have. That is beside the point. I have argued this same issue on other threads, but I am not telling anyone else to go search for my posts because no one would. That is terrible debating. If you have no intention of presenting an argument, then leave the thread. 
 

And who exactly are you? Are you of some noble importance? I couldn't care less if you've read my arguments. If you're that interested, search the thread, find them, and then respond accordingly.    

Make the arguments here. Stop directing people to what you already may have said and present an argument where it was asked. Present an argument. 
 

And now you're acknowledging the fact that I've presented arguments? lol. Wow. And yes, I laughed at your response because it was laughable. And on top of that you're no fun to debate with. You ignore facts and basically stick your fingers in your ears. You take the debate way too seriously, especially for fictional characters.   

So, instead of presenting an argument as I have asked you to do for the last two pages, you just try to be insulting when the fact is that you completely ignored an argument I presented. -_- 
If this is so laughable, then it discrediting it should be easy, right? Prove it wrong. 
   @Silver2467 said: 

" First of all, the consistency of one feat does not translate to everything else. If Steve regularly has difficulty with street levelers, like Crossbones, Red Skull, Zemo, Black Panther, etc., and he does, then saying that his consistently fighting higher tier characters means nothing. That one feat may be consistent, but when taking all of his other showings into account, it begins to lack consistency. BatMan has fought Despero, Wonder Woman, Triumph, Captain Marvel, etc. His fighting higher tier characters without prep or abusing a weakness is consistent. Does that make it consistent with all of his other showings? No. Why? Because BatMan regularly has trouble with street levelers like Bane, Deathstroke, Ra's al Ghul, etc. So his showings in fighting SuperMan-level+ powerhouses may be consistent, but when in comparison with his showings as a whole, it is not by any means consistent. Second, Batgirl has had run-ins with Supergirl and Superboy. Steve is not the only one who has had PIS or circumstantial fights with powerhouse characters. Third, even if that was the case, Steve fighting Hulk, for instance, is not comparable to fighting Batgirl. The two fights are completely unrelated. There is nothing similar about them, in any way, shape, or form. Fighting Hulk, Steve would have to utilize is speed, agility, and shield to avoid and defend from Hulk's attacks. In a fight with Batgirl, he would have to engage her using his martial prowess, taking the combat disciplines he learned to try to outdo her in a hand to hand fight.  "  

Your response: 

 @Silver2467:  lol. No thanks. "    

Stop ignoring it, and address it.

Arguments have been presented. Search the thread for them.   

Present an argument, or leave the thread.
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#694 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassandra Cain for the win.

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#695 Posted by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:

" @superdemon said: 

Exactly. "Have presented" is past tense. I never said that "anything anyone will say or ever says will change my vote".  So no, you have not responded accordingly.
 
Stop putting words into my mouth.   

No argument that you have presented (or anyone for that matter) is enough to change my mind or even provoke a counter argument. 

You addressed where you stated about what I have already said but not the following. First, you say, "anyone for that matter" also. In other words, you said that no argument anyone presents is enough to change your mind. Second, you specifically say that no argument is enough to even provoke a counter argument. That is dismissive. Why not present a counter argument? If you can never even engage in the debate in the first place, then you have proven nothing.  
 
If I misinterpret this, I apologize, but all I really want you to do is present an argument. I am sorry if I misinterpret what you say, but your dismissive attitude and failure to even present an argument do no favors for your credibility. That said, present an argument.
You're taking the last part of my sentence out of context. The first part is a clear example of "past tense" writing. I'll reword it for you. "Nothing that has been presented thus far (for Cassandra) by you or anyone else for that matter, is enough to change my vote or represent the same counter arguments that have already been presented by me, or anyone supporting Steve. 
 
I've already argued for Cap. I'm happy with my decision. Respect that.  
 
And credibility? Seriously? Internet...credibility? And while talking about fictional people? Dude...
 
And I'll say it one more time for you.
 

" First of all, the consistency of one feat does not translate to everything else. If Steve regularly has difficulty with street levelers, like Crossbones, Red Skull, Zemo, Black Panther, etc., and he does, then saying that his consistently fighting higher tier characters means nothing. That one feat may be consistent, but when taking all of his other showings into account, it begins to lack consistency. BatMan has fought Despero, Wonder Woman, Triumph, Captain Marvel, etc. His fighting higher tier characters without prep or abusing a weakness is consistent. Does that make it consistent with all of his other showings? No. Why? Because BatMan regularly has trouble with street levelers like Bane, Deathstroke, Ra's al Ghul, etc. So his showings in fighting SuperMan-level+ powerhouses may be consistent, but when in comparison with his showings as a whole, it is not by any means consistent. Second, Batgirl has had run-ins with Supergirl and Superboy. Steve is not the only one who has had PIS or circumstantial fights with powerhouse characters. Third, even if that was the case, Steve fighting Hulk, for instance, is not comparable to fighting Batgirl. The two fights are completely unrelated. There is nothing similar about them, in any way, shape, or form. Fighting Hulk, Steve would have to utilize is speed, agility, and shield to avoid and defend from Hulk's attacks. In a fight with Batgirl, he would have to engage her using his martial prowess, taking the combat disciplines he learned to try to outdo her in a hand to hand fight.  "

Cap owns people like Crossbones, Red Skull, Zemo. These characters give him trouble because they have devices and schemes. When is comes down to H2H with these guys Cap is clearly the superior. Cap is on par with Black Panther as well. Black Panther, mind you, would wipe the floor with Cassandra. That's for another debate, though. But saying he has trouble with these guys is an overstatement. When Cap has plenty of other consistent feats far above those characters, it tells us he only has "trouble" with these guys for story and plot purposes. Cap is the epitome of Peak Human. He accomplishes the unaccomplished. 
 
Captain America has a helluva lot more high end feats like Beating Namor, etc than Batman and Cassandra do. Batman is regular human with no enhancements. He'd lose to Captain America soundly. Now I'm in no way saying Cap is Namor level, but he'd beat Cassandra Cain in my opinion. Cap is more skilled than Cass in my opinion as well. More showings and feats that trump Cassandra confirm this. Cassandra is not faster either. Cap can dodge bullets, point blank, after the bullet has been fired. Scans have been provided that put him on par with her. If she is faster, it's not enough to make a significant difference here. Her reading ability is being way too over rated as well. Cap can tag Spiderman. Spiderman - who posses true precognition abilities. He doesn't have to "read" Cap - He already knows what Cap's going to do, yet Cap still manages to land blows. Cap is clearly the physical superior in this fight as well. 
 
This is my opinion. There has yet to be an argument that has changed my mind. If someone can step forward and make it clear that Cass wins, I'll concede. Until then, this is my opinion.
 
Until then, I'll state my opinion freely, whenever I want. In whatever thread I want. Telling people to leave the thread because they've stated their opinion is not the welcoming atmosphere I thought this site had.
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#696 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassandra might even take this easily.

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#697 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon said: 
You're taking the last part of my sentence out of context. The first part is a clear example of "past tense" writing. I'll reword it for you. "Nothing that has been presented thus far (for Cassandra) by you or anyone else for that matter, is enough to change my vote or represent the same counter arguments that have already been presented by me, or anyone supporting Steve.    
Alright. 
 
I've already argued for Cap. I'm happy with my decision. Respect that.     
That is not good enough. I have made cases for Cassandra before. It means nothing. Unless an argument is presented in a thread where the argument is asked for, having done so before is irrelevant. 
 
And credibility? Seriously? Internet...credibility? And while talking about fictional people? Dude...  
LOL. You have a lot to learn about debating on this site. 
 
And I'll say it one more time for you.   
<_<  
 
You never said anything in the first place. Your response was "lol, No thanks." -_- 
 
Cap owns people like Crossbones, Red Skull, Zemo. These characters give him trouble because they have devices and schemes. When is comes down to H2H with these guys Cap is clearly the superior.   
All of them have given Steve good fights without prep. This is not even true. 
 
Cap is on par with Black Panther as well. Black Panther, mind you, would wipe the floor with Cassandra. That's for another debate, though. But saying he has trouble with these guys is an overstatement. When Cap has plenty of other consistent feats far above those characters, it tells us he only has "trouble" with these guys for story and plot purposes. Cap is the epitome of Peak Human. He accomplishes the unaccomplished.    
No, when he has difficulty with these characters on a regular basis, it shows that he is not on par with Hulk. If you were to post in a Hulk vs Cap thread, who would you choose? Hulk, or at least you should. Cap fights street levelers because he is a street leveler. He has difficulty with street levelers more consistently than he does higher tier characters.  
 
Captain America has a helluva lot more high end feats like Beating Namor, etc than Batman and Cassandra do.   
No, he does not. BatMan has fought Despero, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, SuperMan, Triumph, Darkseid, etc., often times doing so without prep, and all of whom are on levels well beyond Namor or Hulk. So, no, Cap does not have more high end feats than he does. Even Cassandra has fought Superboy and Supergirl before, but those fights were either circumstantial or purely PIS. She is not on their level, and Steve is not on Hulk or Namor's level. BatMan, Cassandra, and Steve all more consistently have difficulty with street level characters, and they all perform feats that are strictly street level.  
 
Batman is regular human with no enhancements. He'd lose to Captain America soundly.   
Even if BatMan did lose to Steve, it would not be "soundly" by any means. He has physical feats comparable to Cap, even if he is physically inferior to some degree. His combat skill is equal to Steve's, and his strategic and tactical understanding is superior. You could make a case for Steve defeating BatMan. I take no issue with that, but saying that he wins "soundly" is just wrong. 
 
Now I'm in no way saying Cap is Namor level
Then what difference does it make? As I mentioned above, fighting Hulk or Namor is in no way comparable to fighting Cassandra. The characters have completely different capabilities and offer a different battle. This is ABC logic that is not only PIS, but completely irrelevant to the fight. 
 
but he'd beat Cassandra Cain in my opinion. Cap is more skilled than Cass in my opinion as well. More showings and feats that trump Cassandra confirm this.   
Cassandra is a better fighter. Without her body reading ability, she held her own against BatMan, who is just as skilled as Steve. She held her own against Deathstroke, beat Ravager, beat Shiva, proved superior to Black Canary, etc. She is a better fighter. Steve could hold his own against Cassandra, but his skill is not superior. 
 
Cassandra is not faster either. Cap can dodge bullets, point blank, after the bullet has been fired.  
So can Cassandra. 
 
Scans have been provided that put him on par with her. If she is faster, it's not enough to make a significant difference here.  
I can agree that it would not be the major deciding factor in the fight, but she does have some operational speed feats that outweigh his. Her defeating multiple thugs before a bottle can drop, for instance, demonstrates combat speed, which is perfectly relevant to the fight. 
 
Her reading ability is being way too over rated as well. Cap can tag Spiderman. Spiderman - who posses true precognition abilities. He doesn't have to "read" Cap - He already knows what Cap's going to do, yet Cap still manages to land blows. Cap is clearly the physical superior in this fight as well.    
Steve tags SpiderMan because SpiderMan is not a skilled fighter, holds back against physically inferior foes (or else he would have killed Steve with a punch), can be strategically coordinated into positions that play into Cap's favor, etc. He does not possess a body reading ability that allows him to know what exactly what combat techniques his enemy will use before they do it. He has an ability that warns him to an impending danger just before it meets him. It is not a system that informs him what form of attack Steve will use. Besides, Cassandra has tagged characters faster than SpiderMan anyway. So?  
 
This is my opinion. There has yet to be an argument that has changed my mind. If someone can step forward and make it clear that Cass wins, I'll concede. Until then, this is my opinion.  Until then, I'll state my opinion freely, whenever I want. In whatever thread I want. Telling people to leave the thread because they've stated their opinion is not the welcoming atmosphere I thought this site had. "
I asked you to present an argument for your opinion, and it took you two pages of arguing about nothing to do that. I could care less whether you have before. I have as well. It makes no difference. 
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#698 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:
" Cassandra might even take this easily. "
What?
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#699 Posted by Jade1977 (1029 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America would win easily.

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#700 Posted by Andferne (38281 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:
" Cassandra might even take this easily. "
Highly doubt that.