Avatar image for deactivated-5ab1ccc482197
#601 Posted by deactivated-5ab1ccc482197 (3669 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15:  Would you like me to speculate on this part?
"OK, so commenting that he has not realized that until the moment that they fight, means nothing to you?"
Because I can, but it would just be speculation on personal experience as to why.
 
Going back to the original debate we started on this topic. I have not speculated on the scan. While you have continued to read into things hoping for speculation to stick. All I have done is mentioned facts pertaining to the fight.
Avatar image for spidey_15
#602 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Alurvelve said:
" @spidey 15:  Would you like me to speculate on this part?
"OK, so commenting that he has not realized that until the moment that they fight, means nothing to you?"
Because I can, but it would just be speculation on personal experience as to why.  Going back to the original debate we started on this topic. I have not speculated on the scan. While you have continued to read into things hoping for speculation to stick. All I have done is mentioned facts pertaining to the fight. "
OK, then why don't you explained my why he realized that, the moment that they had the fight and he saw cap's using his skills against him. 
This is where i base my opinion that what WE said it's only speculation. 
Spidey realized that while they were fighting. That MOMENT.he realized that cap's style was one move etc.... 
Why didn't he realized that while he was studying him? While he was seeing his regular style? 
=]
Avatar image for deactivated-5ab1ccc482197
#603 Posted by deactivated-5ab1ccc482197 (3669 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
"Why didn't he realized that while he was studying him? While he was seeing his regular style? =] "
Why? well speculating there can be several reasons. For starters it just clicked. There are times you can watch someone doing something over and over. Study it and try it and still not 'get it'. And then one day it just clicks, you have a sudden realization so to speak. Now it's something you look at and can't believe you didn't catch on to earlier. If you are a fighter watching old fights (or other peoples if you don't fight) you see things you missed the first time, second time. Even when you know you should of known better. The same thing can be applied to Kata (martial arts forms, a set of moves against imaginary opponents). The routine could stump you no matter how many times someone tells you the moves, or you see it done. But until you get out there and do it yourself it will always feel different. The same can be said for tricking. Learning flips, spins, etc. Just like I said a bit earlier about having to get out there and do it yourself. That definitely applies to fighting. You can watch a fighter all day long, hundreds of times. But until you get in there and throw down it is always different. 
 
But again this would just be speculation on my part from personal experience. While the things I have said before this post have all been facts derived from the scan.
Avatar image for spidey_15
#604 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Alurvelve: See, you said it yourself. The answer comes down to speculation. And the facts that you have shown, have already been addressed by the questions i have made. So, they don't really seem like a fact. 
=]
Avatar image for deactivated-5ab1ccc482197
#605 Posted by deactivated-5ab1ccc482197 (3669 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15: No as all of that is purely speculation. If that is what the writer has wanted us to immediately think. Then there would of been some sort of comment on how he had changed things. Not that he now realizes what he had previously missed.
Avatar image for sherlock
#606 Posted by Sherlock (7491 posts) - - Show Bio

This is still going on?Really?

Avatar image for spidey_15
#607 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Alurvelve said:
" @spidey 15: No as all of that is purely speculation. If that is what the writer has wanted us to immediately think. Then there would of been some sort of comment on how he had changed things. Not that he now realizes what he had previously missed. "
Shouldn't also be a comment on how Spider-man was holding back against him? Also when Batman was trying to hit Cass, shouldn't be a comment on he was holding back too? 
Shouldn't also be a comment on how Daredevil has tagged bullet timers because he was skilled enough to do it? 
No, there are no comments, but these are obvious things that does not have to be stated. 
Maybe cap's style being different, it's not obvious, but it does not need a comment in order to assume that. 
=]
Avatar image for systemid
#608 Edited by SystemID (448 posts) - - Show Bio
@Alurvelve:@spidey 15: 
 
I hope you guys know what's going on here. This thread has been circling itself for awhile now.
 
Cap has more evidence in his favor for a victory. I'm sorry, he does. Read the thread and re-read it if you have to but it's pretty stacked. All you guys are doing is repeatedly trying to dumb down one another characters feats at this point and it's going nowhere. It's clear no one wants to back down and I respect that. ...but you have to see the patterns going on here.
 
Spidey15, dude, I really respect you. You have fought tooth and nail with some very good stuff.. but come on. If you read the thread it's like you guys are purposely just making this go on for no reason.
Avatar image for spideybat
#609 Posted by spideybat (153 posts) - - Show Bio

CAP PUNCHIES HER LIGHTS OUT
Avatar image for static_shock
#610 Edited by Static Shock (53020 posts) - - Show Bio

I used to look at Cassandra's move-reading as something that couldn't be beaten. But, to be honest, it's never shown to be perfect. It looks as if it works better against unskilled fighters. Many skilled fighters have shown to tag her before, and even then, it appears as if it works based on her physical condition. Nightwing stalemated her, blow for blow, in Outsiders and she wasn't reading moves there. Batman was able to tag her as well, while she was able to read moves (before she lost them). Dog was able to tag her, and her ability to read moves didn't appear to work there. She was also fatigued and malnourished there, as well. Then, there's the fight with Mr. Fun, and many other examples...
 
I think that in this fight, as tactical a fighter as Captain America is, there's no reason to think that he wouldn't be able to tag her. She might be able to read some of his moves and respond accordingly, but that's it. Cap is clearly the superior of the two (strength and durability). While Cassie has considerable feats of strength via striking (breaking though stone walls and quartz), Captain America has some as well (breaking through steel and the like), but has shown strength feats in other areas (lifting, breaking chains, etc) that Cass hasn't shown. As far as durability goes, he's survived a lot more punishment than she has (this isn't to say that she cannot hurt him, though). I'm only bringing it up because people seem to think that Cassie can easily when this, and that isn't the case. Speed in battle is a debatable between the both of them. Both can bullet-time. Both have moved faster than normal humans can see them. Both have outraced bullets (once, though; could be a case of PIS for both showings). No reason to think Cassie is faster than Cap or vice versa. 
 
I think that Cap could win 6/10 times... If Cap had his shield, the fight would be more in his favor.

Avatar image for deactivated-5ab1ccc482197
#611 Posted by deactivated-5ab1ccc482197 (3669 posts) - - Show Bio
@SystemID:
@Sherlock:  Spidey and I are in agreement that Cass wins the majority here. That has never been the question.
imo Cass Vs Cap (without his shield as this match is set up) wins 7 possible 8 out of 10 times.
Our discussion has to do with something completely different.
 
@spidey 15:
Or it could also be that those things you mentioned were not commented on because they are previously established traits for the character. Either way we are just running around in circles. So this is my last reply. Turkey is about finished.
Avatar image for systemid
#612 Edited by SystemID (448 posts) - - Show Bio
@Alurvelve said: Spidey and I are in agreement that Cass wins the majority here. That has never been the question.  
 
 
 
You know, based on your own arguments. I would ask you how you could say that...
 
...but I really don't care anymore.
 
Either way this thread has been going in circles.
Avatar image for captainrodgers
#613 Posted by CaptainRodgers (1658 posts) - - Show Bio

This is getting pretty long , in the end i think Cap takes it , he outlasts her , and a clean strie from him could end the fight .  
I'm done with this one, but  thnk Cap' takes it the majorityof the time and if he had his sheild it would be an even easier fight.
Avatar image for spidey_15
#614 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@SystemID: Thank you SystemID. I respect you too. But the most part of this thread has been fulled of low end showings for Cass and not feats of cap that is supposed to be superior and capable of beating her. These low-end showings have been addressed though, so i still don't see how cap could win. I actually i do see cap winning, but not the majority. As Alurvelve said, i would give her a 7/10 at the very best. 8 seems to much though. 
 
@Alurvelve: Maybe, but Daredevil or any other skilled fighter tagging a bullet timer, a reason for that has never been established as far as i know, but a logical assumption for that, is because his skills allowed him to do it.  
Same can bee said for spidey vs cap fight. Cap had studied him, so there is a big possibility of reforming his style to counter spidey's advantages. Spidey commented on his style the last moment when they actually fought. I know this is speculation, but according to these points, your opinion is speculation too. So, i really don't believe there is point continuing this. 
Have a good day. Nice debating with you. 
 =]
Avatar image for diamondsandpearls
#615 Posted by DiamondsandPearls (227 posts) - - Show Bio

A guy would no better then to hit a lady. Batgirl wins.
Avatar image for mercy_
#616 Posted by Mercy_ (94916 posts) - - Show Bio
@DiamondsandPearls said:
"
A guy would no better then to hit a lady. Batgirl wins. "
Yeah, that's not quite how battles work. 
Avatar image for fist_of_mandalore
#617 Posted by Fist_of_Mandalore (1906 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress said:
" @DiamondsandPearls said:
"
A guy would no better then to hit a lady. Batgirl wins. "
Yeah, that's not quite how battles work.  "
Lol
Avatar image for zakman55719
#618 Posted by zakman55719 (195 posts) - - Show Bio

lol kill this thread

Avatar image for finalstar86
#619 Posted by FinalStar86 (8649 posts) - - Show Bio
@CaptainRodgers said:
"

@FinalStar86:  how exactly does she do this ?
1. cap is faster than her , he is peak human , where as Cass' has never been stated that . 
2. cap has done just as outstanding feats as her , and more 
3.Cap has far more experience taking on foes much bigger than cass 
4.Cap is stronger so she doesn't beat him there. 
5.Cap has had more training than her bein much older. 
6.Cap is equal if not better H2H combatant than her .

"
1. Cap may be peak, Cass ha metahuman level speed, she's faster and has better speed feats, and she also can read all of his moves
2. Not where it matters though
3. Cap also has losses against characters under her.  Daredevil Crossbones Taskmaster
4.  He can lift more, but she can hit just hard if not harder
5. Doesn't matter
6. Doubt it, both Cap and Cass are incredibly overrated as a fighters
Avatar image for static_shock
#620 Posted by Static Shock (53020 posts) - - Show Bio
@FinalStar86 said:
"1. Cap may be peak, Cass ha metahuman level speed, she's faster and has better speed feats.
Cap is much greater than peak-human, and all of his feats support that. For Cassandra's 'meta-human' speed, it's only worked on normal humans, so it's not like her display of speed against them would work against Cap. What feats does she have that makes her faster than Cap? I asked you this before but never got an answer.
Avatar image for spidey_15
#621 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap is enhanced human in terms of speed. 
Also neither Cass' metahuman speed neither cap's enhanced speed are what will allow them to tag the other. Skill is the key here. 
=]

Avatar image for static_shock
#622 Posted by Static Shock (53020 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15: Agreed.
Avatar image for diamondsandpearls
#623 Posted by DiamondsandPearls (227 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress said:
" @DiamondsandPearls said:
"
A guy would no better then to hit a lady. Batgirl wins. "
Yeah, that's not quite how battles work.  "

Then Cap wins.
Avatar image for cochise
#624 Posted by Cochise (719 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
"Cap is enhanced human in terms of speed. Also neither Cass' metahuman speed neither cap's enhanced speed are what will allow them to tag the other. Skill is the key here. =] "

But Cap is more skilled than Cassandra, so...
Avatar image for spidey_15
#625 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cochise said:
" @spidey 15 said:
"Cap is enhanced human in terms of speed. Also neither Cass' metahuman speed neither cap's enhanced speed are what will allow them to tag the other. Skill is the key here. =] "
But Cap is more skilled than Cassandra, so... "
It does not matter who is more skilled.  
Cass has more chances of landing a hit because she does not have the problem that his opponent has. Cass can predict cap's moves.Cap can not. 
This will give the advantage on Cass. And unless cap will realize what Cass is capable of and try to mask his intentions until the last moment, i don't see him landing any hit. If we use logic. 
=]
Avatar image for entropy_aegis
#626 Posted by entropy_aegis (20771 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cochise said:
"@spidey 15 said:
"Cap is enhanced human in terms of speed. Also neither Cass' metahuman speed neither cap's enhanced speed are what will allow them to tag the other. Skill is the key here. =] "
But Cap is more skilled than Cassandra, so... "

cap isnt more skilled than cassandra.

Avatar image for manchine
#627 Posted by Manchine (6328 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap, better hand to hand and more skilled.  There is no doubt it will be a hard fight but the best fighter (Cap for those that aren't keeping up) is kinda obvious.
Avatar image for captainrodgers
#628 Posted by CaptainRodgers (1658 posts) - - Show Bio
@FinalStar86 said:
" @CaptainRodgers said:
"

@FinalStar86:  how exactly does she do this ?
1. cap is faster than her , he is peak human , where as Cass' has never been stated that . 
2. cap has done just as outstanding feats as her , and more 
3.Cap has far more experience taking on foes much bigger than cass 
4.Cap is stronger so she doesn't beat him there. 
5.Cap has had more training than her bein much older. 
6.Cap is equal if not better H2H combatant than her .

"
1. Cap may be peak, Cass ha metahuman level speed, she's faster and has better speed feats, and she also can read all of his moves 2. Not where it matters though 3. Cap also has losses against characters under her.  Daredevil Crossbones Taskmaster 4.  He can lift more, but she can hit just hard if not harder 5. Doesn't matter 6. Doubt it, both Cap and Cass are incredibly overrated as a fighters "

@FinalStar86:  
Cass isn't meta human thats never been stated , and feat wise caps done just as much. 
ABC logic doesn't work , and Cass has lost under people of cap's skill. 
she cannot hit harder than cap  
how does training not matter :S , if cass had never had training who would win ? if cap had nevver had training who would win ? training definetly matters. 
 
Cap wins , he beats her over most if not all aspects of the fight . Nobosdy reply to this , im done with this thread , you guys are far too stubborn. 
CAP FTW !
Avatar image for entropy_aegis
#629 Posted by entropy_aegis (20771 posts) - - Show Bio
@CaptainRodgers:
if training matters then cassandra clean sweeps, she was trained by david cain , batman and bronze tiger among others,who was cap trained by?some guy named monroe.
Avatar image for cochise
#630 Posted by Cochise (719 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis said:
" @CaptainRodgers: if training matters then cassandra clean sweeps, she was trained by david cain , batman and bronze tiger among others,who was cap trained by?some guy named monroe. "
Cap is as good as or better than any of those people? David Cain? Please. His big claim to fame is that he trained Cassandra. Now proof of Cassandra's skill level is... she was trained by David Cain. Circular logic. Cap would wipe the floor with David Cain.
Avatar image for silver2467
#631 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:

" I used to look at Cassandra's move-reading as something that couldn't be beaten. But, to be honest, it's never shown to be perfect. It looks as if it works better against unskilled fighters. Many skilled fighters have shown to tag her before, and even then, it appears as if it works based on her physical condition. Nightwing stalemated her, blow for blow, in Outsiders and she wasn't reading moves there.   

If I remember correctly, she was never even interested in the fight, the fight itself was short-lived, and once Cassandra decided to fight seriously she still managed to pin him against the wall. If she actually wanted to fight Dick, she would floor him fairly quickly. 
 

Batman was able to tag her as well, while she was able to read moves (before she lost them).   

I only remember BatMan tagging her without her body reading ability, but regardless, BatMan is a character of some comparable physical stats and extremely high order combat expertise. Not to mention, he and others have acknowledged that Cassandra is a superior fighter to BatMan. His landing hits on her is not necessarily a sign that he would gain any threshold against her in a hand to hand fight. Her combat skill is superior, her speed is superior, her striking power is comparable, and her body reading is a legitimate factor. 
 

Dog was able to tag her, and her ability to read moves didn't appear to work there. She was also fatigued and malnourished there, as well.   

Not sure I remember the circumstances surrounding this, but if she was in as weakened a state as you suggest, I could very well understand her being tagged. 
 

Then, there's the fight with Mr. Fun, and many other examples...    

Ah, come on, Static. LOL. Her fight with Mr. Fun was just awful. The fact that he was able to trip her up and then, afterward, attack her with Nightwing's gadgets while she just stood there should tell you something. Her reflexes were given no consideration in that fight, whatsoever. That was terrible writing.  
 

I think that in this fight, as tactical a fighter as Captain America is, there's no reason to think that he wouldn't be able to tag her. She might be able to read some of his moves and respond accordingly, but that's it.   

I never doubted that Steve could land hits on her, as others with comparable physicality have, but landing hits is not a guarantee for a victory. The outcome may still land in her favor, despite his ability to tag her in a fight.
 

Cap is clearly the superior of the two (strength and durability). While Cassie has considerable feats of strength via striking (breaking though stone walls and quartz), Captain America has some as well (breaking through steel and the like), but has shown strength feats in other areas (lifting, breaking chains, etc) that Cass hasn't shown.   

To be honest, lifting feats only prove so much in this type of fight. Striking power is much more important, and Cassandra's striking power feats are on the same level as Steve's. If they were to lock arms and attempt to simply push through by brute force until one or the other gives out, resulting in the superior one's leverage, then lifting, pushing, pulling, applying leverage, etc. feats would play to Steve's advantage. But under the circumstances where the two are fighting in a swift, fluid martial arts form (as that would be more likely how they would combat each other), it only bears so much relevance. Now, of course, the fact that Steve has greater lifting feats is important in that it does show that he has greater strength. That said, supposing that Cassandra had more impressive striking power feats than he did (which is not true; this is simply a hypothetical), but Steve had greater lifting feats, I could see that playing in as a factor. If he supersedes her in showings demonstrating his lifting strength, I could see a case being made that, although he may not have performed a certain striking power feat, he could still accomplish it, if that makes sense. However, considering the fact that her striking power feats are arguably roughly equal to his, lifting feats may not be needed to weigh in as much. (If any clarification is needed on that, I could offer it. Trying to explain my point as clearly as I can.) 
 

As far as durability goes, he's survived a lot more punishment than she has (this isn't to say that she cannot hurt him, though). I'm only bringing it up because people seem to think that Cassie can easily when this, and that isn't the case. 

Durability would only amount to so much of a deciding factor when your opponent can break through quartz. Both can withstand hits from the other, but under the circumstances where Cassandra has withstood blows from characters with similar striking power to Steve, the difference is not so significant that it would be the end-all in what the battle would come down to. I understand your point about others implying she could win easily, when I doubt that would be the case either, but as you said, her striking power is such that she could cause injury to him with a generic strike and very possibly defeat him given a certain number more. The same applies to Cassandra. 
 

Speed in battle is a debatable between the both of them. Both can bullet-time. Both have moved faster than normal humans can see them. Both have outraced bullets (once, though; could be a case of PIS for both showings). No reason to think Cassie is faster than Cap or vice versa.    

The outracing bullets instances were PIS for both, in my opinion. Regardless, Cassandra applies speed more consistently than Steve does, I would say. Her blitzing opponents at speeds too fast for them to see and downing multiple opponents before a bottle could drop, for instance, both demonstrate her capability. I have never seen Steve show operational speed at levels equivalent to her, not to say that his combat speed is not top notch though. As I said above, this superiority is not so substantial that Cap would be incapable of landing hits on her or that she would dance circles around him or anything of the like. My only point is that Cassandra does have showings that give credence to the idea that she has a speed advantage. 
 

I think that Cap could win 6/10 times... If Cap had his shield, the fight would be more in his favor. "

I would give Cassandra the majority, honestly. 
Avatar image for spidey_15
#632 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@CaptainRodgers:  

you guys are far too stubborn.  
 


Yeah, this is like was constantly say that Cass will win, without addressing the points that have been made from those that think otherwise.... 
 
-_____-
Avatar image for captainrodgers
#633 Posted by CaptainRodgers (1658 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15:
i dont really understand what you said :/
Avatar image for systemid
#634 Posted by SystemID (448 posts) - - Show Bio

This is what comes to mind when I read this thread...
 
  

  Everybody wants to be this guy.
Avatar image for captainrodgers
#635 Posted by CaptainRodgers (1658 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15:
Also,  im not entirely sure which side your on :S . 
I did read Cass' arguement , its a fair arguement but i see more sufficient evidence and logic for cap's side beatin her in pysicality , training ,experience and others. 
Also did you not read my post :L "noone reply to this" :L
Avatar image for spidey_15
#636 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@CaptainRodgers said:
" @spidey 15: i dont really understand what you said :/ "
You called us stubborns. 
But, at least we address the points that the guys that think that cap would win, make. 
We don't just say that Cass will win, without any argument or having an open mind. 
When i first come to the thread, i thought that Cass was faster than cap. But after seeing some arguments, i have concede that they should be equal. 
I also thought that Cass would dodge every of his attack. I still believe that she should be able to dodge most of his moves, but not all. 
So, are we still stubborn? 
=]
Avatar image for silver2467
#637 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
When i first come to the thread, i thought that Cass was faster than cap. But after seeing some arguments, i have concede that they should be equal.  
Actually, in certain areas, I think she would be faster. 
Avatar image for spidey_15
#638 Edited by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@CaptainRodgers said:

" @spidey 15: Also,  im not entirely sure which side your on :S . I did read Cass' arguement , its a fair arguement but i see more sufficient evidence and logic for cap's side beatin her in pysicality , training ,experience and others. Also did you not read my post :L "noone reply to this" :L "

I'm on Cass' side. 
Sorry, i could not resist replying to your statement...=P 
 Physicality: I have not seen anything from cap that would suggest he is faster or stronger than her. In terms of striking power and speed, i believe they are equals. But has the advantage of predicting his moves and reacting with peak level reflexes. Something that cap SHOULD only counter if he was aware of her ability. 
Training: Cass has been trained from child by her father. She has also been trained by Batman, Bronze tiger and others. And when she lost her body reading ability, she has been trained by Lady Shiva in order to gain it back. I think she has good training. Also she has some good knowledge on nerve strikes, she shew good skills with a sword when she was fighting Raveger and she holds her own against characters, physically superior to her.  
I still don't see cap being so much superior to her. Her body reading is what will give her the advantage and the fact that cap does not have his shield and no knowledge on her abilities. 
 
@Silver2467 said:

" @spidey 15 said:

When i first come to the thread, i thought that Cass was faster than cap. But after seeing some arguments, i have concede that they should be equal.  
Actually, in certain areas, I think she would be faster.  "
I'm  not really sure about that to be honest. 
=]
Avatar image for silver2467
#639 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said: 

@Silver2467 said:

" @spidey 15 said:
When i first come to the thread, i thought that Cass was faster than cap. But after seeing some arguments, i have concede that they should be equal.  
Actually, in certain areas, I think she would be faster.  "
I'm  not really sure about that to be honest. =] "
In reaction time, I may put them on the same level. In travel speed, just for the sake of argument, I would put them on the same level. Operational speed is where I would give Cassandra a minor superiority, based on showings and based on physical status, his being enhanced, hers being metahuman. 
Avatar image for spidey_15
#640 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
" @spidey 15 said: 

@Silver2467 said:

" @spidey 15 said:
When i first come to the thread, i thought that Cass was faster than cap. But after seeing some arguments, i have concede that they should be equal.  
Actually, in certain areas, I think she would be faster.  "
I'm  not really sure about that to be honest. =] "
In reaction time, I may put them on the same level. In travel speed, just for the sake of argument, I would put them on the same level. Operational speed is where I would give Cassandra a minor superiority, based on showings and based on physical status, his being enhanced, hers being metahuman.  "
I actually agree with whole of it except reaction time. Her reaction time is peak, while his, is enhanced. Based on feats, they seem equal but i think cap performs his own feats in a slightly more impressive way IMO. 
But i think Cass, has a lot better chances of dodging hits due to the ability to predict moves and react at levels that allows her to dodge bullets. 
=]
Avatar image for crabtree
#641 Posted by crabtree (1706 posts) - - Show Bio

cap wins easily 

Avatar image for silver2467
#642 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
" @Silver2467 said:
" @spidey 15 said: 

@Silver2467 said:

" @spidey 15 said:
When i first come to the thread, i thought that Cass was faster than cap. But after seeing some arguments, i have concede that they should be equal.  
Actually, in certain areas, I think she would be faster.  "
I'm  not really sure about that to be honest. =] "
In reaction time, I may put them on the same level. In travel speed, just for the sake of argument, I would put them on the same level. Operational speed is where I would give Cassandra a minor superiority, based on showings and based on physical status, his being enhanced, hers being metahuman.  "
I actually agree with whole of it except reaction time. Her reaction time is peak, while his, is enhanced. Based on feats, they seem equal but i think cap performs his own feats in a slightly more impressive way IMO. But i think Cass, has a lot better chances of dodging hits due to the ability to predict moves and react at levels that allows her to dodge bullets. =] "
Cassandra has been stated specifically as having super speed before, actually, in addition to the classification as metahuman. So Steve's having superiority in reaction time is definitely questionable, especially when you consider her operational speed feats. Naturally, your reflexes will be superior to your ability to operate at high speeds. So, on top of her reaction time feats, which are already comparable to Cap's, her operational speed should be evidence to her reactions as well, and understanding how fast she has been able to operate in a fight, not simply blitzing, I see no real difference in reflexes between the two. The body reading is important also, but Cassandra's innate speed is just as significant. 
Avatar image for spidey_15
#643 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467: Yeah, that makes sense. 
=]
Avatar image for silver2467
#644 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15: Just to make my intention clear though, my point was never to say that Cassandra has this incredible speed advantage that would spell instant death for Steve or anything like that. My only point is that I think she should have a certain superiority but not so much that he would be completely incapable of landing hits on her or keeping up with her in the fight. 
Avatar image for spidey_15
#645 Edited by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:

" @spidey 15: Just to make my intention clear though, my point was never to say that Cassandra has this incredible speed advantage that would spell instant death for Steve or anything like that. My only point is that I think she should have a certain superiority but not so much that he would be completely incapable of landing hits on her or keeping up with her in the fight.  "

Of course. We know. 
Indeed, her speed won't be much of a factor here since under logical writing, she is not faster than a bullet. So, cap can and will react to her hits like many other characters have done. 
=]
Avatar image for silver2467
#646 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15: Makes sense. 
Avatar image for saiyan_earthling
#647 Posted by saiyan_earthling (5902 posts) - - Show Bio

I remember sayin Steve before, but I changed my vote to CC. Steve may be physically enhanced, but CC's H2H and her understanding of body language gives her the advantage.

Avatar image for static_shock
#648 Posted by Static Shock (53020 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
" If I remember correctly, she was never even interested in the fight, the fight itself was short-lived, and once Cassandra decided to fight seriously she still managed to pin him against the wall. If she actually wanted to fight Dick, she would floor him fairly quickly. 
 I don't recall anything stating that she wasn't interesting in fighting. It's not like she tried to restrain Nightwing at the beginning or convince him to not to fight. She was fighting back, and no move reading was present. I don't doubt that she could floor him, but that's not the point I was making, anyway. 
 
@Silver2467 said:
"I only remember BatMan tagging her without her body reading ability, but regardless, BatMan is a character of some comparable physical stats and extremely high order combat expertise. Not to mention, he and others have acknowledged that Cassandra is a superior fighter to BatMan. His landing hits on her is not necessarily a sign that he would gain any threshold against her in a hand to hand fight. Her combat skill is superior, her speed is superior, her striking power is comparable, and her body reading is a legitimate factor. 
In regards to the first statement, I don't see why Captain America cannot tag her since he also possesses comparable physical stats and is highly skilled.
 
The fight I was referring to was the one that started in the graveyard, and ended up in the streets. 

  @Silver2467 said:
"Not sure I remember the circumstances surrounding this, but if she was in as weakened a state as you suggest, I could very well understand her being tagged.
This isn't to say that she can't be tagged if in top physical condition.
 
@Silver2467 said:
"Ah, come on, Static. LOL. Her fight with Mr. Fun was just awful. The fact that he was able to trip her up and then, afterward, attack her with Nightwing's gadgets while she just stood there should tell you something. Her reflexes were given no consideration in that fight, whatsoever. That was terrible writing.  
I think the fact that he was able to trip her up, on top of the other instances of her being tagged, supports the fact that her move-reading isn't perfect. Low showing? Yes. But, still....
 
@Silver2467 said:
" To be honest, lifting feats only prove so much in this type of fight. Striking power is much more important, and Cassandra's striking power feats are on the same level as Steve's. If they were to lock arms and attempt to simply push through by brute force until one or the other gives out, resulting in the superior one's leverage, then lifting, pushing, pulling, applying leverage, etc. feats would play to Steve's advantage. But under the circumstances where the two are fighting in a swift, fluid martial arts form (as that would be more likely how they would combat each other), it only bears so much relevance. Now, of course, the fact that Steve has greater lifting feats is important in that it does show that he has greater strength. That said, supposing that Cassandra had more impressive striking power feats than he did (which is not true; this is simply a hypothetical), but Steve had greater lifting feats, I could see that playing in as a factor. If he supersedes her in showings demonstrating his lifting strength, I could see a case being made that, although he may not have performed a certain striking power feat, he could still accomplish it, if that makes sense. However, considering the fact that her striking power feats are arguably roughly equal to his, lifting feats may not be needed to weigh in as much. (If any clarification is needed on that, I could offer it. Trying to explain my point as clearly as I can.) 

I understand.
 
@Silver2467 said:
"Durability would only amount to so much of a deciding factor when your opponent can break through quartz. Both can withstand hits from the other, but under the circumstances where Cassandra has withstood blows from characters with similar striking power to Steve, the difference is not so significant that it would be the end-all in what the battle would come down to. I understand your point about others implying she could win easily, when I doubt that would be the case either, but as you said, her striking power is such that she could cause injury to him with a generic strike and very possibly defeat him given a certain number more. The same applies to Cassandra. 

Fair enough.
 
@Silver2467 said:
" The outracing bullets instances were PIS for both, in my opinion. Regardless, Cassandra applies speed more consistently than Steve does, I would say. Her blitzing opponents at speeds too fast for them to see and downing multiple opponents before a bottle could drop, for instance, both demonstrate her capability. I have never seen Steve show operational speed at levels equivalent to her, not to say that his combat speed is not top notch though. As I said above, this superiority is not so substantial that Cap would be incapable of landing hits on her or that she would dance circles around him or anything of the like. My only point is that Cassandra does have showings that give credence to the idea that she has a speed advantage. 

Even if she applies it more consistently, it doesn't mean much for the simple fact that it's mostly applied against normal human targets that lack the fighting skills that she does or any level of reaction time or enhanced perception. It doesn't mean that she can successfully blitz Steve or that her speed would be a deciding factor in this fight for her. As far as her ability to throw strikes faster than a bottle would drop, it is nothing more than a display of striking speed, but it's still only applied against normal humans. I don't think it would matter than much against Steve. Due to the fact that he possesses a considerable level of reaction time and enhanced perception because of the SSS, I don't see a speed advantage, at all. I have never seen Steve blitz anyone to my knowledge, but like her ability to move faster than normal humans can perceive her, he has done the same against normal humans also. So, where is the speed advantage, exactly?
Avatar image for spidey_15
#649 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: Sorry Static. I know that you already have a debate with Silver, but i just want to explain, why i believe that Batgirl being tagged so many times and so easy, it does not really make much of a sense. I do believe that cap can tag her, but not as easy as many characters have done. I believe that it will be extremely hard. 
 
Here is my explanation 
 

 Cass has already peak human reflexes seeing from her feats. Those reflexes alone( that are actually DD's level ) are enough for me to know that she will be able to dodge cap( not saying that cap can not react to her hits ). So having the ability to read your opponent on the level that Cass dose is a great bonus for her. Those statements like " the body reading is not a big advantage against top MA " does not make sense. Most people have dodged other character's with their reaction time alone. Cass has equal reaction time but the advantage of having the ability to predict what her opponents will do. So unless they used their knowledge and skills, tagging Cassandra should not make any sense. She has the reaction to dodge them and the ability to predict their moves. 
Unless cap is aware of that ability, i don't see her laying any hand on her. Unless he realized that, before he would be beaten. Then i could see him taking the win.     

=]
Avatar image for entropy_aegis
#650 Posted by entropy_aegis (20771 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cochise:
i love how you picked cain but left out bats and bronze tiger.