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#501 Posted by SystemID (448 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon said:
" @Silver2467 said:

" @Static Shock: Haha.   I am still trying to figure out why Cap's fights with Hulk or Namor were even brought up. What does that even have to do with fighting Batgirl anyway, the PIS-ness of the fights aside? "

It shows me he's capable of contending with such characters. And such characters would make mince meat of Batgirl. "
I actually think she could hold her own against Namor.. for awhile. =)
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#502 Edited by Dark King (4029 posts) - - Show Bio

@ Superdemon
 
try to keep it within a window of context. there s no need to go to the extreme end of his feats.
 
Captain America dodging any herald being and giving them a shield bash or punch  has no bearing in the context of this fight, no more the Batman dodging and hitting amazo or supes. DS punching WW and surprising Superman with his Agility... no more then Batgirl hitting superboy on the nose or dodging Supergirl....
 
those feats only work b/c
 
 A) they surprised their opponent with the unexpected...
 
 B) PIS for a human to out react Superhuman's who regularly move at sub sonic and FTL speeds.. 
 
C) Durability lvl that would need krytonite/magic/adamantium to even tickle them which they manage to do with a 1 to 2  maybe 5 ton punch tops...
 
 
D) simply outside factors and out of context point of the story.....

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#503 Edited by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dark King said:

" @ Superdemon  try to keep it within a window of context. there s no need to go to the extreme end of his feats.  Captain America dodging any herald being and giving them a shield bash or punch is has no bearing in the context of this fight, no more the Batman dodging and hitting amazo or supes. DS punching WW and surprising Superman with his Agility... no more then Batgirl hitting superboy on the nose or dodging Supergirl....  those feats only work b/c   A) they surprised their opponent with the unexpected...   B) PIS for a human to out react Superhuman's who regularly move at sub sonic and FTL speeds..   C) Durability lvl that would need krytonite/magic/adamantium to even tickle them which they did with a 1 to 2 punch...   D) simply outside factors and out of context point of the story..... "

I understand. I was just using as a "game winner" as Cap has every thing Cass does, plus the extreme.
 
 @Silver2467:  lol. No thanks.
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#504 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio

Still going eh?
 
Cassandra wins.

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#505 Posted by darth_fletcher (248 posts) - - Show Bio

anybody who backs batgirl for this really needs their head checking !!!

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#506 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio

 No, you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that PIS doesn't exist. I said that the key to determining what's PIS or not is consistency. I don't care how a character has the ability to do something - being bitten by a spider, rubbing a magic lamp, intense training - as long as they are consistent.  Spider-Man beating a herald of Galactus is inconsistent with Spidey's other showings. You couldn't predict the outcome of a fight between Spidey and, say, Terrax, based on his fight with Firelord. However, Daredevil consistently survives the punches of superstrong people by rolling with them. He does that through skill and training, not by his opponent holding back.   
 


You know what PIS means, right? 
It means, Plot Included Stupidity. 
If a normal human at Olympic levels consistently survives super human hits from 100 toners it's stupid as you can understand so it's PIS. If you use your logic, consistency is not the only thing that determines stupidity if these consistent feats are beyond the level of ability of that person. 
So if his opponents are holding back or they are low level physically and DD is rolling with their hits, then it's acceptable. If his opponents are high level physically( 10 tons < ) and they are not holding back, rolling with their hits it's just for the plot so an important hero won't die. It's also stupid, so it's PIS. 
 

 Not sure who "we" is but yes, if something is shown consistently, it should be accepted. "Making sense" is a very vague term in the world of comic books.    
 


Everyone here that is not a troll, uses logic. 
Again, PIS it's Plot Included Stupidity. 
Events that are completely beyond the ability of the level of that character are just for the Plot so it will be interesting and impressive and they don't make sense as well. They are stupid, so as you can see, they are PIS.   
 

 

  I'm not sure why you're discounting Daredevil's abilities because he's not a superhuman, but at the same time allowing similar abilities to Cassandra, who also isn't a superhuman. If anything, DD is more of a superhuman than Cassandra. DD was bathed in radioactive chemicals and trained with mystic ninjas. Cassandra has no such thing in her history, all she did was train with her dad. She has no metagene. She wasn't exposed to any magic and didn't have any super genes spliced into her DNA, or any other comic book-type source of superpowers



 
As you said DD was affected by chemicals. His radar has increased his reaction time at peak levels. This is acceptable. There is an explanation for having that ability. I was mostly talking about his durability that was not stated to be ever super human. 
Cass has been trained at peak conditions IIRC. Yet her ability to multitasking it's mostly mentally IIRC. Certain people can born with mental abilities. Also if i'm not mistaken, her upbringing was relevant too. 
So there are explanations and for Cass' feats. 
 

 

  Yes, she's great at multitasking. She can juggle while fighting. This goes along with what is stated in her comic by her creator, who also stated that she wasn't superhuman.   
   Not sure what you mean here.  
 
Again, let me ask you: if Cassandra has the consistent ability to outrun a bullet, why doesn't she use this level of speed when fighting Shiva, Batman, Robin, Deathstroke, Shadow Thief, etc.?  Why was she getting clobbered by Batman when she lost her body reading? If she was truly that fast, she wouldn't have needed her speed to avoid those hits. And before you say, "PIS!", remember that this was a major plot point in her formative issues written by her creator. 


 
OK, I can agree with you that outrunning a bullet it's too much. I never liked that feat anyway. But i don't like cap's ability to do it either. No one on his level has ever outrun a bullet and no superior has done that as well except if we are talking about speedsters.  
As for your question on why Cass does not fight on the level of speed of a bullet, even she she has that speed and even if she used that level, she does not move faster than most of the people that you named, can see. But as i have agreed, that ability does not really make sense. 
Well, she had trouble with Batman because generally she is a peak human, so no superiority to him. But even if her reflexes allow her to react to him, for most part of her life used to predict movements with her body reading. Losing that ability, can also affect her ability to fight effectively. I hope that explanation makes sense. 
As for what i meant before. The characters that manage to tag her, maybe they used her ability of reading in their favor. That means that make some movements in an attempt to make others moves, so they would tag her. That's the only logical explanation i can see on that. Otherwise, it wouldn't make any sense. 
 =] 
@Dark King:
 Being at peak conditions and cap being at enhanced conditions won't give to cap the win because she is barely inferior physically. She can still read his movements. 
 
Well, as i have understand, she was graped while she was in midair. Can you tell me how easy it;s to avoid while in midair? 
Also, even if she had been hit while in position that she could dodge, then it does not make sense about her abilities. She has peak reflexes as i can understand and she can predict movements. Her feats shows her to has the speed to do many things at once, she can dodge many bullets and beat 6 guys under 1 second. 
  
See? 
=]
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#507 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@darth_fletcher said:
" anybody who backs batgirl for this really needs their head checking !!! "
Even though we uses her feats, we uses her abilities and her skills. All that being taken into account and we still need a head checking....great...
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#508 Edited by FinalStar86 (8649 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:
" Still going eh?  Cassandra wins. "
@spidey 15: I have no idea why this is still going on, Cap is too slow for her and the fight won't last long enough for him to outlast her. 
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#509 Posted by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio
@FinalStar86 said:
"Cap is too slow for her "
Based on what?
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#510 Posted by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @FinalStar86 said:
"Cap is too slow for her "
Based on what? "
There is nothing to base that off of. Cap is equal if not faster than Cass.
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#511 Edited by Dark King (4029 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:

" @FinalStar86 said:

"Cap is too slow for her "
Based on what? "
well, he did get shot in the gut and also by Black widow...(sarcasm)
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#512 Posted by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon: I'm aware. I just want to see what he says.
 
@Dark King:
LOL.
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#513 Posted by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @superdemon: I'm aware. I just want to see what he says.
 
@Dark King: LOL. "
Ah. Good man.
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#514 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@FinalStar86 said:
" @erik said:
" Still going eh?  Cassandra wins. "
@spidey 15: I have no idea why this is still going on, Cap is too slow for her and the fight won't last long enough for him to outlast her.  "
Nah, i don't think he is too slow for her, but i have no doubt that she will be able to dodge most if not all of his hits. 
=]
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#515 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:

" @FinalStar86 said:

" @erik said:
" Still going eh?  Cassandra wins. "
@spidey 15: I have no idea why this is still going on, Cap is too slow for her and the fight won't last long enough for him to outlast her.  "
Nah, i don't think he is too slow for her, but i have no doubt that she will be able to dodge most if not all of his hits. =] "
He is not too slow and should be able to react to some of her attacks. Others with comparable physical attributes have. But I would give Cassandra a certain speed advantage, as she does seem to apply it more consistently and has actually been classified as a metahuman; whereas, Steve is merely enhanced. He is about as close as you can get to being metahuman without actually being one. Her speed feats should speak volumes about her ability to strike at high speeds and react accordingly. She also has at least comparable striking power, as she was able to punch down a concrete wall and break through three inch thick quartz. Not saying this is easy for Cassandra, but as Erik already proved in another thread (I think it was), Cassandra should win.
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#516 Posted by FinalStar86 (8649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @FinalStar86 said:
"Cap is too slow for her "
Based on what? "
I was going to say based on the feats shown in the thread, but I'm not going with that anymore
 

 @spidey 15 said:
" @FinalStar86 said:
" @erik said:
" Still going eh?  Cassandra wins. "
@spidey 15: I have no idea why this is still going on, Cap is too slow for her and the fight won't last long enough for him to outlast her.  "
Nah, i don't think he is too slow for her, but i have no doubt that she will be able to dodge most if not all of his hits. =] "

Yeah, I do think she has an advantage in the speed department on top of her move reading, but I don't think that she's so much faster then Cap can't land any hits on her.  Although to be fair 90% of the time she's been hit, were under circumstances
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#517 Posted by Dark King (4029 posts) - - Show Bio

what circumstances were they?

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#518 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
" @spidey 15 said:

" @FinalStar86 said:

" @erik said:
" Still going eh?  Cassandra wins. "
@spidey 15: I have no idea why this is still going on, Cap is too slow for her and the fight won't last long enough for him to outlast her.  "
Nah, i don't think he is too slow for her, but i have no doubt that she will be able to dodge most if not all of his hits. =] "
He is not too slow and should be able to react to some of her attacks. Others with comparable physical attributes have. But I would give Cassandra a certain speed advantage, as she does seem to apply it more consistently and has actually been classified as a metahuman; whereas, Steve is merely enhanced. He is about as close as you can get to being metahuman without actually being one. Her speed feats should speak volumes about her ability to strike at high speeds and react accordingly. She also has at least comparable striking power, as she was able to punch down a concrete wall and break through three inch thick quartz. Not saying this is easy for Cassandra, but as Erik already proved in another thread (I think it was), Cassandra should win. "
Actually her individual movements are of a normal human level of speed. But she can multi task, she can do many things at once( like punching 6 thugs under one second or dodging 4 bullets after they were fired or beating people before they change the expression that had on their face ) so her aggregate speed is metahuman as it has been stated. 
As i have admitted before, i never liked her feats of outrunning a bullet neither i trust that accomplishment of cap. 
I will mostly put them on the same level of speed, but i give her the advantage due to her body reading. Also characters that she has beaten( like Shiva IIRC ) put her on amazing level of skill. Also, even though it was not a real fight, Batman being unable to land a hit on her, was also impressive feat IMO. 
So yes, Cassie should win after a good fight. 
 
@FinalStar86:  

Yeah, I do think she has an advantage in the speed department on top of her move reading, but I don't think that she's so much faster then Cap can't land any hits on her.  Although to be fair 90% of the time she's been hit, were under circumstances


 
 
As i have said. I would put them on the same level of speed but as you said, her body reading, gives her the advantage. If cap was aware of her body reading, i think he should be able to land hits due to his tactical intellect that would allow him to fight in a way that he should confuse her, IMO. 
=]
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#519 Posted by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio
@FinalStar86 said:
"I was going to say based on the feats shown in the thread, but I'm not going with that anymore
So, how is she faster than him? We know that she can read his moves, but that has nothing to do with speed, in general. We also know that she can bullet time. Cap can do it, too. They both have impressive speed showings against normal humans (to the effect that the humans can't see them move or that they move faster than humans can see them). So, what gives her the edge? 
 
If anything, her combat speed shouldn't be any better than his, and she wouldn't be much faster than he would be able to contend with her.
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#520 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said: 

Actually her individual movements are of a normal human level of speed. But she can multi task, she can do many things at once( like punching 6 thugs under one second or dodging 4 bullets after they were fired or beating people before they change the expression that had on their face ) so her aggregate speed is metahuman as it has been stated. 
As i have admitted before, i never liked her feats of outrunning a bullet neither i trust that accomplishment of cap. 
I will mostly put them on the same level of speed, but i give her the advantage due to her body reading. Also characters that she has beaten( like Shiva IIRC ) put her on amazing level of skill. Also, even though it was not a real fight, Batman being unable to land a hit on her, was also impressive feat IMO. 
So yes, Cassie should win after a good fight.     

I was never referring to the bullet feat though, because I never trust that for her or Steve either. Cap has been stated as being able to sprint at 60MPH, if I remember correctly. That seems much more within the realm of his capabilities than outrunning a bullet. What I was referring to is, as you said, defeating opponents before a bottle could drop (I think she did that more than once) and blitzing thugs before they could react.  
 
But either way, I think this is just semantics.     
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#521 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467: Yup, Cap has been stated to run at 60MPH. Yeah, it's just semantics. 
 
Btw, i think we I can prove that cap's and Cass' feats of outrunning a bullet it's bad writing. Spider-man was barely able to outrun a bullet during the first issue of The Other in the Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-man #1. And he was swinging with his webbing while he outrun them. Everyone knows that while he swings, spider-man can move amazingly fast, yet the bullets were still close to him. It will be very silly to believe that cap or Cass can move as fast as spider-man can swing, right? 
=]
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#522 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15: Not only that, but the feat is by no means consistent. As you said, even some superhumans like SpiderMan can barely outrun bullets, if at all. For someone like Cap, who is just below superhuman, to do that makes no sense. There is also the matter that his speed has been stated and shown at lower levels before, such as the 60MPH instance. It also would be illogical given that it would virtually eliminate the need for him to even engage in hand to hand fights if he can blitz at the speed of a bullet. For Cassandra, even though she is a metahuman, the same principal applies. The showing is inconsistent and, if she really can do that, illogical given that she fights hand to hand. I can buy her blitzing thugs, but outrunning a bullet is overdoing it. 
 
The showing is inconsistent and just illogical, really. 
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#523 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
" @spidey 15: Not only that, but the feat is by no means consistent. As you said, even some superhumans like SpiderMan can barely outrun bullets, if at all. For someone like Cap, who is just below superhuman, to do that makes no sense. There is also the matter that his speed has been stated and shown at lower levels before, such as the 60MPH instance. It also would be illogical given that it would virtually eliminate the need for him to even engage in hand to hand fights if he can blitz at the speed of a bullet. For Cassandra, even though she is a metahuman, the same principal applies. The showing is inconsistent and, if she really can do that, illogical given that she fights hand to hand. I can buy her blitzing thugs, but outrunning a bullet is overdoing it.  The showing is inconsistent and just illogical, really.  "
Totally agree with you. 
=]
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#524 Posted by thegentlemanrogue (721 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
I will mostly put them on the same level of speed, but i give her the advantage due to her body reading. Also characters that she has beaten( like Shiva IIRC ) put her on amazing level of skill. Also, even though it was not a real fight, Batman being unable to land a hit on her, was also impressive feat IMO. 
So yes, Cassie should win after a good fight. 

But why do you feel that her body reading will be an notable advantage against Cap? Sure there was a time when she as able to completely avoid Nightwing, but that had more to due where Nightwing as at as fighter than it did Batgirl's ability anyway. Around the same time Batman himself had shown that Nightwing couldn't lay a finger on him in fight if he wanted to, and the didn't have Cass's ability to read body language... anyway that time has long since passed.
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#525 Posted by Dark King (4029 posts) - - Show Bio
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#526 Edited by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@thegentlemanrogue: Wait, that was Nightwing? Wasn't he Bruce? I was talking about the time when Shiva reteach her the ability to read body language. 
 
Also, i think her body language can give her the advantage, because she can predict Cap's movements for the most part and unless cap will be aware of her ability, i don't really see him landing any hit on him. Shiva used to have trouble landing hits as well. Also her peak reflexes( reflexes on a level that allows you to react to bullets ) combined with that kind of language( body reading ) it's an amazing advantage IMO. 
And since she was skilled enough to take on Shiva, i'm pretty sure she can take on Cap too. 
=]
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#527 Posted by Band Lone (1819 posts) - - Show Bio

Batgirl

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#528 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dark King said:
" ppl keep throwing the aggregated term around as it means something and only post the one scan out of context and not the follow up so here, enjoy.
 
batgirl's analyzes by the scientist. "
So, i have stated that phrase like a million of times. She can multi task. She has the ability to do many things at once. Look at her feats. She beats 6 thugs under 1 second. She beats thugs before the expression they had on their face could change.  
I don't see the reason on why you post that. 
=]
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#529 Posted by deactivated-57a74e8944aa0 (2 posts) - - Show Bio
@bumnut: Batgirl all the way. 

 Cassandra Cain was too legit to quit.

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#530 Edited by Dark King (4029 posts) - - Show Bio

so ppl can see what is being talked about and not just take ppl's opinion and interpretation..
 
Batgirl isnt anything special in her fights with Lady shiva she was getting hit both exhausted themselves and beat one another...
 
When she fought batman in the cemetery, batman explicitly stated he didnt want to hurt and was holding back.... then he eventually started fighting back after batgirl told him to hurt her if he could... they then fought and chased each other both dodging and countering even tacking her into traffic... both playing cat and mouse...
 
this does not sound like some one who can defeat captain america let alone believe that her body reading gives her an advantage or that her mother and her are superior to cap physically or mentally. 
 
not when cap is running with the SSS in his body and the little feat of Batgirl hitting a guy in under a second from a bottle drop is no more impressive and even less when  cap is taking down cape killers and jumping through a window on to a jet flying bye. 
 
bunch of thugs <<<< Cape Killer shield soldiers weapons out and Cap out reacting everyone in the room..

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#531 Edited by thegentlemanrogue (721 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:

" @thegentlemanrogue: Wait, that was Nightwing? Wasn't he Bruce? I was talking about the time when Shiva reteach her the ability to read body language.  Also, i think her body language can give her the advantage, because she can predict Cap's movements for the most part and unless cap will be aware of her ability, i don't really see him landing any hit on him. Shiva used to have trouble landing hits as well. Also her peak reflexes( reflexes on a level that allows you to react to bullets ) combined with that kind of language( body reading ) it's an amazing advantage IMO. And since she was skilled enough to take on Shiva, i'm pretty sure she can take on Cap too. =] "

The instance you are thinking about was Batman, but it wasn't a fight so it doesn't matter. I was referring to completely different incident.
 
It just seems very odd to me. Shiva has fought Batman three times and lost three times. Batman has said, maybe she is better than him, and maybe she could eventually win a long fight... but she hasn't shown herself to be skilled enough to actually get a conclusive win over Batman. So what? Cass is too much for Captain America, because she barely edged out Shiva? Really? It isn't like Shiva is Karate Kid, she has done nothing that would suggest she is too much for Captain America, so why does barely beating her elevate Batgirl so high in your mind? On that same token, Batman is would be too much for Captain America. And seriously, you don't see Captain America landing a hit on her? Even though Batman, Shiva, Cain and even Nightwing have all done it without difficulty? Her ability to read bodies is a huge advantage, against thugs and fodder, but it diminishes greatly as the person in creases in skill. At best it is a marginal advantage against someone of Captain America or Batman's caliber.
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#532 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio

Batgirl's fight with Lady Shiva, one of the most skilled characters that can read y body language as well. 
Cassandra at first was reacting to her attacks, then both of the start hitting each other until they were KOed. 
Do not only see the outcome of the fight. Try to see what happened to the fight. You need knowledge of your opponent and skills in order to tag him when one of his best abilities is to predict your moves. 
Cap has the skill but not the knowledge that will allow him to tag her. 
 
As fort the Batman occasion, i was talking about that. Batman was not aware that Shiva taught her the body language, Cass asked him to hit her. He threw like 4 hits, none of them was landed on Cass. 
 
It was not 1 guy. It was 6 guys and all of them were taken down under one second. What is more impressive than that? 
 
It does not matter what were the opponents, what it matters is what happened to the opponents and in what time. Or now you are just going to say that she won't be able to beat 6 cape killers because...... 
 
@thegentlemanrogue:  

The instance you are thinking about was Batman, but it wasn't a fight so it doesn't matter. I was referring to completely different incident.
 
It just seems very odd to me. Shiva has fought Batman three times and lost three times. Batman has said,  maybe  she is better than him, and  maybe  she could eventually win a long fight... but she hasn't shown herself to be skilled enough to actually get a conclusive win over Batman. So what? Cass is too much for Captain America, because she barely edged out Shiva? Really? It isn't like Shiva is Karate Kid, she has done nothing that would suggest she is too much for Captain America, so why does barely beating her elevate Batgirl so high in your mind? On that same token, Batman is would be too much for Captain America. And seriously, you don't see Captain America landing a hit on her? Even though Batman, Shiva, Cain and even Nightwing have all done it without difficulty? Her ability to read bodies is a huge advantage, against thugs and fodder, but it diminishes greatly as the person in creases in skill. At best it is a marginal advantage against someone of Captain America or Batman's caliber. 


 
Actually that instance it helps my case. 
Cass asked Batman to hit her. Batman did that. But he was not aware that Shiva retaught her the ability to read body moves. So he didn't try to tag her in a way that he will confuse her. He didn't have the knowledge that would allow him to make the difference. Same can happen here. Cap is not aware of her ability, he won't be able to hit her. Unless you are saying that someone who logically should not be faster than a bullet can tag a bullet timer with the ability to predict moves as well. I mean there are so many advantages for Cass. She is a bullet timer, one of the best with the ability to predict moves and the feats that suggest she can dodge cap. What else do you need? 
I never said that Cass, is more skilled than cap. But she is skilled enough to take on him like Crossbones and Black Panther did and good enough to dodge him. Cass having trouble with skilled characters that have great knowledge on her, it does not mean she will lose here. Also as far as i know, Batman has only stalemated Shiva! 
='
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#533 Posted by thegentlemanrogue (721 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:

 Actually that instance it helps my case. Cass asked Batman to hit her. Batman did that. But he was not aware that Shiva retaught her the ability to read body moves. So he didn't try to tag her in a way that he will confuse her. He didn't have the knowledge that would allow him to make the difference. Same can happen here. Cap is not aware of her ability, he won't be able to hit her. I mean there are so many advantages for Cass. She is a bullet timer, one of the best with the ability to predict moves and the feats that suggest she can dodge cap. What else do you need? I never said that Cass, is more skilled than cap. But she is skilled enough to take on him like Crossbones and Black Panther did and good enough to dodge him. Cass having trouble with skilled characters that have great knowledge on her, it does not mean she will lose here. Also as far as i know, Batman has only stalemated Shiva! =' "

Yes Batgirl avoided Batman in a sparing match when he wasn't aware that she had regained her ability to read body language. He was testing her like he had been for weeks. He didn't think she was even capable of paroling in her condition. He was holding back. It wasn't a fight. It was nothing of relevance. Batman wasn't unable to hit her because he was surprised by her ability, he was unable to hit her because he was wearing his kid gloves.
 
" Unless you are saying that someone who logically should not be faster than a bullet can tag a bullet timer with the ability to predict moves as well. "
 
Um... What are you talking about? Logically Batgirl shouldn't be faster than a bullet either. So, what? You are going liberally apply logic to Captain America and ignore his bullet time feats, but just give Batgirl free reign? How does that seem objective to you? I think Captain America is going to hit her because he has better or equal speed feats, and outside of bogus training matches and spars skilled Batman has done it would out much difficulty.
 
Black Panther beat Batman in a sparing match. Captain America was so out of it when Crossbones beat him, that Crossbones felt cheated of his victory and left. Don't ignore context.
 
Batman has fought Shiva three times. The first two times they were evenly matched until Robin showed up and Batman promptly beat her. The third time he one shot'ed her... but she may have been mind controlled.
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#534 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@thegentlemanrogue:  
 

  Yes Batgirl avoided Batman in a sparing match when he wasn't aware that she had regained her ability to read body language. He was testing her like he had been for weeks. He didn't think she was even capable of paroling in her condition. He was holding back. It wasn't a fight. It was nothing of relevance. Batman wasn't unable to hit her because he was surprised by her ability, he was unable to hit her because he was wearing his kid gloves.


  
 
Cass asked him to hit her. So in what way he held back, he didn't use his full speed or he didn't use his full strength? 
The point is not if the fight was real or not. The point is that she asked him to hit her, Bruce did not refused. Cass has predicted his moves and he avoided them. 
I don't see any difference with Cap. Cap is not aware of her ability. Cass will predict his moves and her reflexes would allow her to dodge him. Simple. 
 

 Um... What are you talking about? Logically Batgirl shouldn't be faster than a bullet either. So, what? You are going liberally apply logic to Captain America and ignore his bullet time feats, but just give Batgirl free reign? How does that seem objective to you? I think Captain America is going to hit her because he has better or equal speed feats, and outside of bogus training matches and spars skilled Batman has done it would out much difficulty.   


 
I knew that would make that point. So let me tell you that like every skilled opponents that has tagged cap, they have accomplished that due to skill and knowledge that allow them to land a hit in a way that can not be dodged ease. Let's take as an example current DD's fight with Iron Fist. Didn't Danny blocked 2 hits from DD? But then DD manage to tag him. The obvious reason it was because he was skilled enough to do it. That's why Danny commented on his skills after their fight. I have not doubt that cap can react to her. But i'm sure that she has a lot better chances on landing a hit than cap has. 
 I don't think cap is superior in terms of speed. I have not seen anything that proves that. As i have stated before, IMO they are equals. 
The only logical reason i have seen batman doing it, it's because he knows Cass and her abilities, otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. 
 

   Black Panther beat Batman in a sparing match. Captain America was so out of it when Crossbones beat him, that Crossbones felt cheated of his victory and left. Don't ignore context.   
 


I'm not taking anything out of context. I just mentioned those guys to prove that cap is not much better than Cass when he could not doge guys skills with her. Also Cap had more fights with Cross. My point is not that he lost but he has been hit. 
 

 Batman has fought Shiva three times. The first two times they were evenly matched until Robin showed up and Batman promptly beat her. The third time he one shot'ed her... but she may have been mind controlled.  
 


I see. Batman is very skilled character. He has mastered all the styles of the world and he is physically perfect in terms of humans limits. I think those matters a lot in a fight. But it does not seem good writing to me one shotting her. Unless the mind control affect her fighting skills. 
=] 
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#535 Posted by thegentlemanrogue (721 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
 Cass asked him to hit her. So in what way he held back, he didn't use his full speed or he didn't use his full strength? 
The point is not if the fight was real or not. The point is that she asked him to hit her, Bruce did not refused. Cass has predicted his moves and he avoided them. 
I don't see any difference with Cap. Cap is not aware of her ability. Cass will predict his moves and her reflexes would allow her to dodge him. Simple. 
 
I knew that would make that point. So let me tell you that like every skilled opponents that has tagged cap, they have accomplished that due to skill and knowledge that allow them to land a hit in a way that can not be dodged ease. Let's take as an example current DD's fight with Iron Fist. Didn't Danny blocked 2 hits from DD? But then DD manage to tag him. The obvious reason it was because he was skilled enough to do it. That's why Danny commented on his skills after their fight. I have not doubt that cap can react to her. But i'm sure that she has a lot better chances on landing a hit than cap has. 
 I don't think cap is superior in terms of speed. I have not seen anything that proves that. As i have stated before, IMO they are equals. 
The only logical reason i have seen batman doing it, it's because he knows Cass and her abilities, otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. 
 
I'm not taking anything out of context. I just mentioned those guys to prove that cap is not much better than Cass when he could not doge guys skills with her. Also Cap had more fights with Cross. My point is not that he lost but he has been hit. 
 

He held back in every possible way. Strength. Speed. You name it. Like you said yourself, Batman didn't know he had her abilities back. Batman thought that she still was missing her ability, he was retraining her to be capable of fighting criminals, not to beat Batman. He wasn't hold back. There has never, not once, in any of her fights with a MA been a dialog bubble or narrative box stating "I can hit you because I know you can read my moves!" No they hit her because her ability simply isn't that much of an advantage. All MAs can read body language to a certain degree, and they are all trained not to telegraph there movements. Cass' ability is a huge boon against fodder, it is a nothing but a slight advantage against someone as skilled as Batman... which is why so many top MAs have hit her without difficulty.
 
I don't know what the point of the DD / Iron Fist point is, or how it pertains to this match. 
 
Crossbones is an extremely skilled peak human fighter. Black Panther is a low level superhuman, extremely skilled fighter. They would both it Batgirl without too much difficulty also.
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#536 Posted by FinalStar86 (8649 posts) - - Show Bio

Crossbones beating Batgirl...wow...just want I thought your credibility couldn't sink any lower....

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#537 Posted by thegentlemanrogue (721 posts) - - Show Bio

No Caption Provided


No Caption Provided
In the first page Batman dodges Batgirl's strike, blocks her kick with his forearm and then tags her with a pressure point. In the second page he decks her and then kicks her into a car. There is more in between those pages, but it is mostly Batman trying to avoid Cass and her chasing at after him while he the throws flash bombs and batarangs. It is the closest thing to a fight a real fight between Batgirl and Batman. They are both under the effects of a drug, and Batman really doesn't want to fight her, but still he has no trouble tagging her or dodging her attacks even though he isn't goingg all out. She lands punches of her own and dodges some of Batman's attacks, but no more than any top tier MA would. Cass isn't Judomaster, her ability to ready body language doesn't make her untouchable, and against the best Martial Artists in DC it doesn't seem to afford her much of an advantage at all.
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#538 Edited by thegentlemanrogue (721 posts) - - Show Bio
@FinalStar86 said:

" Crossbones beating Batgirl...wow...just want I thought your credibility couldn't sink any lower.... "

I meant the could hit her. 
 
Since we are on the subject of credibility, I'm still waiting on that proof that Deathstroke was depowered when Batman kicked his ass.
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#539 Posted by Dark King (4029 posts) - - Show Bio

i am also waiting on Deathstroke scan stating he controls his bodies molecules..
 
 also the link to the rest of the batman vs batgirl fight so ppl can see and interpret the scans themselves. it also has Batgirl fighting other ppl one including her mother and showing that she gets exhausted and isnt unhittable
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/nightwing-vs-batgirl-vs-azrael/33029/?page=5  
 
pls note that it is a comicvine link hopefully the comic scans will have more credibility since it came from here and not another site...(sarcasm)

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#540 Edited by thegentlemanrogue (721 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dark King said:

" i am also waiting on Deathstroke scan stating he controls his bodies molecules..
 
 also the link to the rest of the batman vs batgirl fight so ppl can see and interpret the scans themselves. it also has Batgirl fighting other ppl one including her mother and showing that she gets exhausted and isnt unhittable
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/nightwing-vs-batgirl-vs-azrael/33029/?page=5    pls note that it is a comicvine link hopefully the comic scans will have more credibility since it came from here and not another site...(sarcasm) "

He said that he can control his molecules in the Faces of Evil one shot. Pretty sure it is hyperbole though. Slade has never demonstrated anything other than standard control over all his organs / bodily functions like Bullseye. Control over his molecules would give him shape shifting and the ability to alter density and a whole slew of abilities which he doesn't have.
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#541 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio

 He held back in every possible way. Strength. Speed. You name it. Like you said yourself, Batman didn't know he had her abilities back. Batman thought that she still was missing her ability, he was retraining her to be capable of fighting criminals, not to beat Batman. He wasn't hold back. There has never, not once, in any of her fights with a MA been a dialog bubble or narrative box stating "I can hit you because I know you can read my moves!" No they hit her because her ability simply isn't that much of an advantage. All MAs can read body language to a certain degree, and they are all trained not to telegraph there movements. Cass' ability is a huge boon against fodder, it is a nothing but a slight advantage against someone as skilled as Batman... which is why so many top MAs have hit her without difficulty. 
   


So, even if Bruce wat at full speed, you think she can not react to him? You think that the girl that dodged bullets that almost reach her head could not react to Bruce's full speed? 
Neither there was a dialog or narrative box that suggest that Batman was holding back, but it's still obvious that he was holding back. Tagging a character that it's first language is reading the movements of a body and predicting them and also has peak human reflexes can only be accepted if the character that tagged her is skilled and knowledgeable enough to do it. Otherwise it would not make much of a sense. Unless you want to give a logical explanation. 
Cass ability was enough to dodge Shiva for the most part of her fight. 
Cass has predicted the moves 
of Batman before actually batman could move at all 
Look at the scan 

No Caption Provided
She could see every of his muscle, bone, breath.... 
She could predict the move that he would do, combined with her peak reflexes and logically even if batman is at his best, he should not ever lay a hand on her, unless he is using his skills to a way that he would confuse her. 
 
So every time that she has been hit, unless there is a logical explanation of skills, it would not make sense. Saying that she is not good enough to do it, it does not prove much though. 
 

 I don't know what the point of the DD / Iron Fist point is, or how it pertains to this match.    
 


I brought that to show you that people can react to hits unless the other fighter use his skills to tag him. 
 

   Crossbones is an extremely skilled peak human fighter. Black Panther is a low level superhuman, extremely skilled fighter. They would both it Batgirl without too much difficulty also. 
 


I could see that happening if they knew about her ability. 
=]
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#542 Posted by Dark King (4029 posts) - - Show Bio
@thegentlemanrogue said:
" @Dark King said:
" i am also waiting on Deathstroke scan stating he controls his bodies molecules..
 
 also the link to the rest of the batman vs batgirl fight so ppl can see and interpret the scans themselves. it also has Batgirl fighting other ppl one including her mother and showing that she gets exhausted and isnt unhittable
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/nightwing-vs-batgirl-vs-azrael/33029/?page=5    pls note that it is a comicvine link hopefully the comic scans will have more credibility since it came from here and not another site...(sarcasm) "
He said that he can control his molecules in the Faces of Evil one shot. Pretty sure it is hyperbole though. "
interesting, very well then. for hyperbole that is a big exaggeration on his part... i doubt that if he could it wouldnt be a deciding factor for batgirl since she never commented on it...
she has simply stated DS is faster, stronger and smarter then her.. the choir comment i attribute to simply  being more fluid faster and just being enhanced.
 
after all its never really effected the outcomes in his fights with other Ma'ers whether its Batgirl, Batman or Nightwing.. everyone has tagged him some looking better doing it then other.
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#543 Posted by FinalStar86 (8649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dark King said:
" @thegentlemanrogue said:
" @Dark King said:
" i am also waiting on Deathstroke scan stating he controls his bodies molecules..
 
 also the link to the rest of the batman vs batgirl fight so ppl can see and interpret the scans themselves. it also has Batgirl fighting other ppl one including her mother and showing that she gets exhausted and isnt unhittable
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/nightwing-vs-batgirl-vs-azrael/33029/?page=5    pls note that it is a comicvine link hopefully the comic scans will have more credibility since it came from here and not another site...(sarcasm) "
He said that he can control his molecules in the Faces of Evil one shot. Pretty sure it is hyperbole though. "
interesting, very well then. for hyperbole that is a big exaggeration on his part... i doubt that if he could it wouldnt be a deciding factor for batgirl since she never commented on it... she has simply stated DS is faster, stronger and smarter then her.. the choir comment i attribute to simply  being more fluid faster and just being enhanced.  after all its never really effected the outcomes in his fights with other Ma'ers whether its Batgirl, Batman or Nightwing.. everyone has tagged him some looking better doing it then other. "
She never stated that DS was faster or stronger then her. 
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#544 Posted by Dark King (4029 posts) - - Show Bio

why would he need to know her ability ?
 
Cap didnt know DD when he 1st fought him, he didnt know taskmaster's ability.. a trained fighter will be changing/learning and analyzing his or her opponent.. 
 
Her power doesnt give her an edge over cap that he cant compensate.. batman has hit her, nightwing has hit, DS has hit her shiva has hit her a random thug meta hit her, Gemini grabbed her...
 
the scans of their fight is conclusive she can and will be hit, she has bn hit by less and Bats isnt Cap... which makes it an even more likely that Cap will be landing far more hit on her then batman,,
 
simply stating Bat's shouldnt be able to hit her doesnt change the fact that he can and has.... and in this fight we go by history of the character and their feats encountering similar opponents and gauge how well they will do against some one else.

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#545 Posted by FinalStar86 (8649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dark King said:
" why would he need to know her ability ?  Cap didnt know DD when he 1st fought him, he didnt know taskmaster's ability.. a trained fighter will be changing/learning and analyzing his or her opponent..   Her power doesnt give her an edge over cap that he cant compensate.. batman has hit her, nightwing has hit, DS has hit her shiva has hit her a random thug meta hit her, Gemini grabbed her...  the scans of their fight is conclusive she can and will be hit, she has bn hit by less and Bats isnt Cap... which makes it an even more likely that Cap will be landing far more hit on her then batman,,  simply stating Bat's shouldnt be able to hit her doesnt change the fact that he can and has.... and in this fight we go by history of the character and their feats encountering similar opponents and gauge how well they will do against some one else. "
It's good to see that you never read any comics with Batgirl in them
Batman hit her when she lost her ability
Nightwing hit her when she was holding back and didn't want to fight
Deathstroke hit her once in all of their fights and that was because he played mind games
Shiva has the same ability that Batgirl has
 
You fail
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#546 Posted by Dark King (4029 posts) - - Show Bio
@FinalStar86 said:

" @Dark King said:

interesting, very well then. for hyperbole that is a big exaggeration on his part... i doubt that if he could it wouldnt be a deciding factor for batgirl since she never commented on it... she has simply stated DS is faster, stronger and smarter then her.. the choir comment i attribute to simply  being more fluid faster and just being enhanced.  after all its never really effected the outcomes in his fights with other Ma'ers whether its Batgirl, Batman or Nightwing.. everyone has tagged him some looking better doing it then other. "
She never stated that DS was faster or stronger then her.  "
here you go.
its not from this site, so you might not find it that credible.
 straight from her own thought narration box.
 http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/5563/bgds108jb.jpg
 
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#547 Posted by The_Ghostshell (84303 posts) - - Show Bio
@FinalStar86 said:
" She never stated that DS was faster or stronger then her.  "

No Caption Provided
 
 @Dark King: To be fair though, in her second mini series Deathstroke himself stated that there are really only Two ways to beat Batgirl. From a distance, and/or by getting inside her head.
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#548 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't Raveger lost to batgirl btw? 
=]

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#549 Posted by thegentlemanrogue (721 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
So, even if Bruce wat at full speed, you think she can not react to him? You think that the girl that dodged bullets that almost reach her head could not react to Bruce's full speed? 
Neither there was a dialog or narrative box that suggest that Batman was holding back, but it's still obvious that he was holding back. Tagging a character that it's first language is reading the movements of a body and predicting them and also has peak human reflexes can only be accepted if the character that tagged her is skilled and knowledgeable enough to do it. Otherwise it would not make much of a sense. Unless you want to give a logical explanation. 
Cass ability was enough to dodge Shiva for the most part of her fight. 
Cass has predicted the moves 
of Batman before actually batman could move at all 
Look at the scan
She could see every of his muscle, bone, breath.... 
She could predict the move that he would do, combined with her peak reflexes and logically even if batman is at his best, he should not ever lay a hand on her, unless he is using his skills to a way that he would confuse her. 
 
So every time that she has been hit, unless there is a logical explanation of skills, it would not make sense. Saying that she is not good enough to do it, it does not prove much though. 
 
I brought that to show you that people can react to hits unless the other fighter use his skills to tag him. 
 
I could see that happening if they knew about her ability. =] "
Is English your first language? What is it with this "you think she can not react to him" stuff you keep saying? I've said that her ability is only a mild advantage and she is in the same boat as any top tier MA... how do you see "she can not react to Batman," anywhere in there.
 
I could tell you straight to your face, "I am going to punch you in 3 seconds," but that doesn't mean that the heads up is going to allow you to avoid it. Batman is a skilled fighter, he is fast and he is strong, he is trained not to telegraph his movements and capitalize when his opponent is telegraphing their own. Batgirl's ability requires that their is enough time between her reading a signal for her to carry out an effective counter... and do it again for whatever her opponents fallow up is once he is insider her hit box.... and again after that. Against a normal person she can pretty much act with complete immunity and not even worry about getting hit... but then again so can Batman and Captain America. Against a skilled fighter who is masking his intentions until the last possible moment and striking like greased lightening, her ability to read body language has never shown itself to be overtly effective. The best person it worked on has been Nightwing, and that was years ago when Nightwing couldn't even land an unwanted hand on Batman.
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#550 Posted by thegentlemanrogue (721 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler said:
" @FinalStar86 said:
" She never stated that DS was faster or stronger then her.  "

No Caption Provided
 
 @Dark King: To be fair though, in her second mini series Deathstroke himself stated that there are really only Two ways to beat Batgirl. From a distance, and/or by getting inside her head. "
He said the same thing about his Daughter and we've all seen him tool Ravanger.