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#451 Edited by FinalStar86 (8649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:

" @FinalStar86 said:

" @Static Shock: If you click on any of those minerals, they all lead to wikipedia.  "
LMFAO! "
As I said before, this guy has no credibility, gentlemenrogue is comic relief on this site, I'll start calling him SeSaw 2010/11
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#452 Posted by SystemID (448 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:

"Robin
He poisoned her, recently. Not a physical fight. What does their sparring match mean? It wasn't a real fight. What about the time he was doped up on that drug that gave him superhuman speed? Doesn't count, either...
I don't think she was holding back in this fight though. I could be wrong. I think that's why it can be used as an example.
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#453 Posted by daredevil21134 (15932 posts) - - Show Bio
@FinalStar86 said:
"@Static Shock said:

" @FinalStar86 said:

" @Static Shock: If you click on any of those minerals, they all lead to wikipedia.  "
LMFAO! "
As I said before, this guy has no credibility, gentlemenrogue is comic relief on this site, I'll start calling him SeSaw 2010/11 "

lol
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#454 Posted by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio
@SystemID said:
" I don't think she was holding back in this fight though. I could be wrong. I think that's why it can be used as an example. "
Been a while since I read it, but a sparring match is different from a real fight in a sense that both combatant aren't seriously trying to hurt each other...
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#455 Edited by SystemID (448 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:

" @SystemID said:

" I don't think she was holding back in this fight though. I could be wrong. I think that's why it can be used as an example. "
Been a while since I read it, but a sparring match is different from a real fight in a sense that both combatant aren't seriously trying to hurt each other... "
Yeah but.. Bruce doesn't kill people. For that matter no one in the Bat family kills people. Just because Shiva wasn't trying to kill Drake doesn't necessarily mean she's holding back. I mean..  you wouldn't really ever use the words "holding back" with Bruce. He is pretty straight on to the point in his fights. With class.
 
I don't know. I'm just saying.
 
but yeah.. this was the fight that Robin becomes her superior in staff fighting. She was reeeeally trying if I recall.
 
Anyway. But yeah. w/e
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#456 Posted by thegentlemanrogue (721 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @FinalStar86 said:
" @Static Shock: If you click on any of those minerals, they all lead to wikipedia.  "
LMFAO! "
I'm sorry should I get someone from the Geology department of U of T on the line and gets some quotes on the Mohs scale of hardness? Because I'm sure there is a mass conspiracy on wikipedia to undersell the hardness of calcite. Thank god you caught it!
 
Seriously, google MoHs scale of hardness, they are all the same, this one was just the most in depth and had the nicest layout that wasn't a jpeg.
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#457 Posted by daredevil21134 (15932 posts) - - Show Bio

hmmmmmmmm
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#458 Edited by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio
@SystemID said:

" Yeah but.. Bruce doesn't kill people. For that matter no one in the Bat family kills people. Just because Shiva wasn't trying to kill Drake doesn't necessarily mean she's holding back. I mean..  you wouldn't really ever use the words "holding back" with Bruce. He is pretty straight on to the point in his fights. With class.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Bruce not killing criminals in a real fight where he's trying to hurt them is different from a sparring match in which Shiva isn't trying to kill Tim.
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#459 Posted by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio
@thegentlemanrogue said:
"I'm sorry should I get someone from the Geology department of U of T on the line and gets some quotes on the Mohs scale of hardness? Because I'm sure there is a mass conspiracy on wikipedia to undersell the hardness of calcite. Thank god you caught it!  Seriously, google MoHs scale of hardness, they are all the same, this one was just the most in depth and had the nicest layout that wasn't a jpeg. "
You're addressing me, because....?
 
I didn't say the scale was wrong. It's just I wasn't expecting someone to say the link were all from Wikipedia.
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#460 Edited by thegentlemanrogue (721 posts) - - Show Bio
@FinalStar86 said:


No Caption Provided


No Caption Provided


No Caption Provided
Where does it once state Midnighter would of ended up dead in any of the scenarios?  You think because he asked Apollo to assist him that he couldn't do it by himself?  That is the biggest load of crap.  Did you ever think that maybe it would of just been more convenient for Apollo to help him?   Even if that was the case [and I'm not saying it is] in the first issue of his own series he was tear through tanks and kicking back tank shells, yet you want to pass this showing off as Legit?   It really isn't debateable, you do low ball the hell out of characters you debate against.  Nice scans with Cass, maybe I can show the scans of Cap getting punched out by Crossbones and Brock laughing off his hits?   Right, except that this didn't happen, the last time they fought Bullseye toyed with her and even threw his weapon away.     I see 2 posters commenting on your post, one is Dark King who I've been dealing with on this site for over a year, he is a massive fanboy and what he say is meaningless, he would of said Wolverine regardless of who was debating.  So that leaves 1.    Uh huh, and all I ever see in regards to you is Low balling characters you debate against Overhyping characters you debate for Leaving out important details to further lowball and BS  Go back and check out the Shang and Elektra vs Batgirl and Shiva thread, prime of example of people scoffing at what you say and picking every one of your post apart.  No one takes you seriously on this site, you literally are comic relief. "
Ennis doesn't out right state it, he doesn't need to, it's made abundantly clear would out spelling it out for simpletons, Midnighter boasts, the guy calls him on it, we get a clear panel of Midnighter's face super pissed off, and then we get him asking Apollo for help which includes the line "you'll need to." Apollo refuses to help and Midnighter goes along with it, because it's his only choice.
 
I don't low ball any characters, you just have your balls in vice because I'm informed enough to know that Midnighter kicking a tank shell isn't even remotely in line with the other 99.9% of his appearances, and that throws a real wrench into the fair tales you are trying to perpetuate. I would tell you that you are over hyping the character you are supporting and underselling the opponent... but frankly, I don't think you are knowledgeable enough to be accused of that. You wait for someone who seems like they know what they are talking about to post, and then you cling to their undercarriage like a scavenger.
 
You can post Cap fighting Crossbones if you'd like, but at least he is a credible threat unlike Mr. Fun.
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#461 Posted by SystemID (448 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @SysteimID said:

" Yeah but.. Bruce doesn't kill people. For that matter no one in the Bat family kills people. Just because Shiva wasn't trying to kill Drake doesn't necessarily mean she's holding back. I mean..  you wouldn't really ever use the words "holding back" with Bruce. He is pretty straight on to the point in his fights. With class.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Bruce not killing criminals in a real fight where he's trying to hurt them is different from a sparring match in which Shiva isn't trying to kill Tim. "
Mmmmmmm... I don't know. I'm not so convinced she wasn't necessarily trying to hurt him. Just not kill him. Dude.. people get messed up in sparring matches all the time. Especially in test of the caliber that Shiva would perform. Plus. It was a bo staff fight. A weapon that Tim picked because of it's non-lethality. ...and I'm still pretty sure they were going all out. 
 
Semantics, Sha-mantics.
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#462 Posted by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio
@SystemID said:
" Mmmmmmm... I don't know. I'm not so convinced she wasn't necessarily trying to hurt him. Just not kill him.
The fact remains that it wasn't a real fight, and the fact that she didn't fight to kill him says it all. In all other fights, she fights to the death.   
 
@SystemID said:
" Dude.. people get messed up in sparring matches all the time.
The extensiveness in damage/injury between real fights and sparring matches aren't the same. So, what's your point?
 
@SystemID said:
" Plus. It was a bo staff fight. A weapon that Tim picked because of it's non-lethality. ...and I'm still pretty sure they were going all out
I disagree. I don't know about Tim, but I doubt Shiva was giving it her all.
 
@SystemID said:
" Semantics, Sha-mantics. "
Or, maybe you have a hard time understanding the difference between a fight that's real and fight that isn't. But, whatever. I can't convince everyone.
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#463 Posted by thegentlemanrogue (721 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @thegentlemanrogue said:
" I don't think there is much proof, if any, to suggest that Batgirl is more skilled than Captain America.
Which is why I said 'I think.' I simply stated an opinion.
 
@thegentlemanrogue said:
Outside of that her career has pretty much evolved her losing to Batman (with circumstances but still)
If there were circumstances that allowed Batman to win, why does this even count, not to mention that Batman admitted she was better than him?
 
@thegentlemanrogue said:
"having more trouble with characters like Talia
Talia attacked her from behind after she defeated Catwoman (and didn't even know Talia was there). This doesn't count, either. It's as half-assed as Matches Malone hitting Bronze Tiger over the head with a chair while he wasn't looking (true story). It doesn't count...
 
@thegentlemanrogue said:
" Katana
She easily defeated Katana in their first go around. Shiva went easy on her in the second.
 
@thegentlemanrogue said:
"Robin
He poisoned her, recently. Not a physical fight. What does their sparring match mean? It wasn't a real fight. What about the time he was doped up on that drug that gave him superhuman speed? Doesn't count, either...
 
@thegentlemanrogue said:
"Huntress
I supposed you're referring the fight they had recently, where Shiva was dominating her until Huntress spit her own blood in her eyes. Even then, she didn't even lose the fight. She got right back up and Black Canary interrupted it.
 
@thegentlemanrogue said:
Seriously, what has Shiva done that would make her too skilled for Captain America?
Does Captain America master new fighting styles every year and discard old ones? Shiva does. "
But what is the opinion based on? Batgirl's barely beat Shiva, and there where circumstances behind her victory (nothing as overt as Robin showing up), but circumstances none the less. Why is Batgirl's win over Shiva valid in your mind, but not Batman's? Shiva's own reputation barely stands up on its own weight after scrutiny, it can't support Batgirl's as well.

I never meant to imply those characters could or have beaten Shiva, merely that they have given her more trouble than they should for someone of her reputation. These are all characters of Night Thrasher caliber, characters Cap man handles in mere panels... and yet Shiva has had difficulty with.
 
I suppose it might be difficult for Captain America to learn new styles every year when he has been established on panel to be a master of every known style.
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#464 Posted by staceydillon (59 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap. Fighting Nazi's can make a man pretty tough, you know if you are looking past the super solider serum.

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#465 Posted by thegentlemanrogue (721 posts) - - Show Bio

I brought up Tim beating Shiva in a sparing match to highlight the absurdity of people pretending that Cass "beating" Bruce in a sparing match is relevant. No one in there right mind is going to say that Tim is more skilled than Shiva because he beat he in a sparing match... but some people will in the case of Batgirl and Batman. The teacher never goes all out in a sparing match, they have nothing to prove. Tim has beat Shiva. Natasha has beat Wolverine. Cass has beat Batman. Sparing matches are no indication of a real fight.

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#466 Posted by WarChild (820 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America, FTW

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#467 Posted by SystemID (448 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @SystemID said:
" Mmmmmmm... I don't know. I'm not so convinced she wasn't necessarily trying to hurt him. Just not kill him.
The fact remains that it wasn't a real fight, and the fact that she didn't fight to kill him says it all. In all other fights, she fights to the death.   
 
@SystemID said:
" Dude.. people get messed up in sparring matches all the time.
The extensiveness in damage/injury between real fights and sparring matches aren't the same. So, what's your point?
 
@SystemID said:
" Plus. It was a bo staff fight. A weapon that Tim picked because of it's non-lethality. ...and I'm still pretty sure they were going all out
I disagree. I don't know about Tim, but I doubt Shiva was giving it her all.
 
@SystemID said:
" Semantics, Sha-mantics. "
Or, maybe you have a hard time understanding the difference between a fight that's real and fight that isn't. But, whatever. I can't convince everyone. "
Wow. You found it necessary to break apart my widdle post piece by piece huh? You might be a little too invested in this..
 
Anyway... now that your done insulting me. 
 
Have you ever been in a real fight or a sparring match? Cause I've been in both. I've also seen someone break someone's collar bone in a sparring match just to prove a point to the person he was fighting. And before you ask. I was in the military when this happened not some "karate dojo". So don't talk to me like I don't know what I am talking about. I would appreciate it. Thanks.
 
So basically what you are saying is that Shiva sucks if she isn't trying to kill so you don't want to use that fight. Gotcha.
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#468 Edited by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio
@thegentlemanrogue said:

"Batgirl's barely beat Shiva, and there where circumstances behind her victory (nothing as overt as Robin showing up), but circumstances none the less. Why is Batgirl's win over Shiva valid in your mind, but not Batman's?

Batgirl didn't fight Shiva while Shiva was mind-controlled by Grodd. Batman did. The only 'circumstance' was that Shiva wanted to die in one fight. Doesn't take away from the fact that she was giving it her all.
 
@thegentlemanrogue said:

"I never meant to imply those characters could or have beaten Shiva, merely that they have given her more trouble than they should for someone of her reputation.

There were circumstances to all of the fights you mentioned, some of them aren't even real fights (Talia and Robin, who had massive circumstances). 
 
@thegentlemanrogue said:

"These are all characters of Night Thrasher caliber, characters Cap man handles in mere panels... and yet Shiva has had difficulty with.

I'm pretty positive that if these 'Night Thrasher-caliber characters' had circumstances helping them, Cap would have just as much difficulty. You can't have it both ways.
 
@thegentlemanrogue said:

" I suppose it might be difficult for Captain America to learn new styles every year when he has been established on panel to be a master of every known style. "

The same was said for Shiva, and Batman acknowledged it.
 

No Caption Provided

If this is the case, the new styles she masters are probably unknown forms.
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#469 Edited by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio
@SystemID said:

" Wow. You found it necessary to break apart my widdle post piece by piece huh? You might be a little too invested in this..

Perhaps that's what you think, but is not the case. I always do this. If you don't like it, you don't have to respond to me. Simple.
 

@SystemID

said:

"Anyway... now that your done insulting me.

I'm not sure why you think this is the case, but whatever...
 

@SystemID

said:

" Have you ever been in a real fight or a sparring match? Cause I've been in both. I've also seen someone break someone's collar bone in a sparring match just to prove a point to the person he was fighting. And before you ask. I was in the military when this happened not some "karate dojo". So don't talk to me like I don't know what I am talking about. I would appreciate it. Thanks.

I've been in both, and not only that, I've also seen many of both. The extent of injuries between both real fights and sparring matches are not same, in general (minus that one 'sparring match' you've seen). The fact that you were in the military doesn't really change anything, and on top of that, the issue isn't just limited to karate dojos or the military, anyway. As far as you thinking that I'm talking to you like you don't know what you're talking about or acting as if you've been insulted, it sounds like a personal problem to me. Nobody was talking to down to you just now. But, if you believe it as such, I'm not going to convince you otherwise. Your 'thanks' isn't welcome, for this reason.
 

@SystemID

said:

"So basically what you are saying is that Shiva sucks if she isn't trying to kill so you don't want to use that fight. Gotcha. "

Looks like you find it difficult to understand that 'Shiva wasn't giving it her all, so why does it matter,' either...
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#470 Edited by SystemID (448 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:

" @SystemID said:

" Wow. You found it necessary to break apart my widdle post piece by piece huh? You might be a little too invested in this..

Perhaps that's what you think, but it's not the case. I always do this. If you don't like it, you don't have to respond to me. Simple.
 

@SystemID

said:

"Anyway... now that your done insulting me.

I'm not sure why you think this is the case, but whatever...
 

@SystemID

said:

" Have you ever been in a real fight or a sparring match? Cause I've been in both. I've also seen someone break someone's collar bone in a sparring match just to prove a point to the person he was fighting. And before you ask. I was in the military when this happened not some "karate dojo". So don't talk to me like I don't know what I am talking about. I would appreciate it. Thanks.

I've been in both, and not only that, I've also seen many of both. The extent of injuries between both real fights and sparring matches are not same, in general (minus that one 'sparring match' you've seen). The fact that you were in the military doesn't really change anything, and on top of that, the issue isn't just limited to karate dojos or the military, anyway. As far as you thinking that I'm talking to you like you don't know what you're talking about or acting as if you've being insulted, it sounds like a personal problem to me. Nobody was talking to down to you just now. But, if you believe it as such, I'm not going to convince you otherwise. Your 'thanks' isn't welcome, for this reason.
 

@SystemID

said:

"So basically what you are saying is that Shiva sucks if she isn't trying to kill so you don't want to use that fight. Gotcha. "

Looks like you find it difficult to understand that 'Shiva wasn't giving it her all, so why does it matter,' either... "
Read the issue. Then tell me she wasn't. Simple.
 
And you're continuing to attempt to insult me from a passive aggressive stance... because you know I'm right already. It's cool though. I understand your need to prove something to me. It's okay. I understand. With me and my "one sparring match." lol.
 
I was a paratrooper in the 82nd Airborne's 2/508PIR, Bravo Company. An Infantry regiment. I've been in enough fights/sparring matches both sober and not to say that you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. And it means something because it means that I am clearly a better judge of what "holding back" means because I clearly have more experience with the subject than you do.
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#471 Edited by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio
@SystemID said:

"Read the issue. Then tell me she wasn't. Simple. 

I should be telling you to do the same. After all, you admitted that you 'could be wrong' about the fight on the other page, implying that you aren't exactly sure.
 
@SystemID said:

" And you're continuing to attempt to insult me from a passive aggressive stance... because you know I'm right already. It's cool though. I understand your need to prove something to me. It's okay. I understand. With me and my "one sparring match." lol.

No. You only believe yourself to be right, and the same time, believe yourself to be insulted by me because you're taking what I'm saying a bit too seriously. Try not to act like the one sparring match you've seen actually proves a point. You're typing nothing but a bunch of words on a computer screen. Do you honestly think you're doing better than me by telling me your experience in the military?
 
@SystemID said:

" I was a paratrooper in the 82nd Airborne's 2/508PIR, Bravo Company. An Infantry regiment. I've been in enough fights/sparring matches both sober and not to say that you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. "

I may not be a G.I. Joe like you (now, I'm insulting you, LOL), but I've been training in Shotokan for years now, and I've also been training in Muay Thai lately. I've been in plenty of sparring matches and real fights throughout my life, and in the latter, I've experienced injuries that were more extensive than what I've experienced in sparring matches. Your experience (if it's actually true) just so happens to be different from mine. 
 
Still, not doing better than me, I'm afraid. But, if you desperately want to prove a point by telling me how many wars you've been in, be my guest. 
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#472 Edited by SystemID (448 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:

" @SystemID said:

"Read the issue. Then tell me she wasn't. Simple. 
I should be telling you to do the same. After all, you admitted that you 'could be wrong' about the fight on the other page, implying that you aren't exactly sure.
 
@SystemID said:
" And you're continuing to attempt to insult me from a passive aggressive stance... because you know I'm right already. It's cool though. I understand your need to prove something to me. It's okay. I understand. With me and my "one sparring match." lol.
No. You only believe yourself to be right, and the same time, believe yourself to be insulted by me because you're taking what I'm saying a bit too seriously. Try not to act like the one sparring match you've seen actually proves a point. You're typing nothing but a bunch of words on a computer screen. Do you honestly think you're doing better than me by telling me your experience in the military?
 
@SystemID said:
" I was a paratrooper in the 82nd Airborne's 2/508PIR, Bravo Company. An Infantry regiment. I've been in enough fights/sparring matches both sober and not to say that you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. "
I may not be a G.I. Joe like you (now, I'm insulting you, LOL), but I've been training in Shotokan for years now, and I've also been training in Muay Thai lately. I've been in plenty of sparring matches and real fights throughout my life, and in the latter, I've experienced injuries that were more extensive than what I've experienced in sparring matches. Your experience (if it's actually true) just so happens to be different from mine.   Still, not doing better than me, I'm afraid. But, if you desperately want to prove a point by telling me how many wars you've been in, be me guest.  "
1. Actually. I did read it. I'm just waiting for you to do the same. I don't have scans. I own it.
 
2. You're still doing it. You come off a "holier than thou" ass the way you are talking to me. Anyone with eyes could see that.
 
3. And now you really are insulting me, like you said, because I was in the army. I don't even have words for that. You have no idea why I was in the army. What gives you the right to judge me? What the have you done with your own life that makes you think you can judge me for that? 
 
Kuddos for the Muay Thai. Shotokan is a joke. Just so you know.
 
 I do MMA too. Whoop dee doo. (which is the same thing as "combatives" in the army)
 
I'm not desperately trying to prove anything. I asked you whether or not that could be considered an example. You gave me no valid reasons why it couldn't be and starting insulting me. That's about as far as it went.
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#473 Edited by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio
@SystemID said:

" 1. Actually. I did read it. I'm just waiting for you to do the same. I don't have scans. I own it.

I'll read over it again, once I find the book. 
 

@SystemID

said:

" 2. You're still doing it. You come off a "holier than thou" ass the way you are talking to me. Anyone with eyes could see that.

I wasn't, at first. Judging by this comment, you've obviously a bit too touchy. Your eyes are your own. Try not to speak for others.
 

@SystemID

said:

" 3. And now you really are insulting me, like you said, because I was in the army. I don't even have words for that. You have no idea why I was in the army. What gives you the right to judge me? What the have you done with your own life that makes you think you can judge me for that?

So, you admit that I wasn't insulting you before? Okay. I'm not quite sure what you're reason for joining the military was, and I'm pretty sure that it's a good reason. I was only poking fun because you felt the need to boast about it as if you had something to prove (and even then, and didn't even ask you for all of your military credentials or whatever). It's not like I said that you weren't in the military or anything.
 

@SystemID

said:

"Shotokan is a joke

Heh. Your entitled to your opinion, and despite that, it's helped me in lot a fights. Apparently, it's not for everybody.
 

@SystemID

said:

" And it means something because it means that I am clearly a better judge of what "holding back" means because I clearly have more experience with the subject than you do. "

I just caught this edit. I do remember saying that your experience isn't the same as mine. You're trained to kill with your bare hands in the military (if I'm not mistaken). I've only been trained to fight in a ring for sport and defend myself. I'm pretty sure that your idea of 'holding back' is different from mine, based on that. But, it doesn't make you more right than me. 
 

@SystemID

said:

" I'm not desperately trying to prove anything. I asked you whether or not that could be considered an example. You gave me no valid reasons why it couldn't be and starting insulting me. That's about as far as it went. "

Where did I not give a valid reason as to why it can't be used? I do remember saying that it was a sparring match from very beginning (based on what I remember), thus implying that it can't be used as an example because it's not the same as a real fight. You didn't agree with me, and we took it from there. 
 
Seriously, Black Panther and Captain America once had a sparring match during the Civil War. A match that Black Panther won, and remarked that he could have crushed Steve's head like a grapefruit (by stepping on it). Cap stated that it wouldn't happen in a real fight. Based on that, it obvious that the both of them may not have been giving it their all, especially Cap. 
 
But, you know what, I'll read the book again,  like you suggested.
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#474 Posted by SystemID (448 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: 
 
Okay then.... sweet. You have given me plenty of reasons to not think you are a d-bag anymore (no offense).  The edit I guess was bad timing on my part. I tried to do it quick.
 
Look.. honestly, I'm tired as ****. After you read the issue if you still think she was holding back then fine. I'll drop it. I just don't see it that way. Not only that. But if I remember correctly this fight even establishes Tim as the best staff fighter in the DCU. That's something I'll have to look up but I know I've heard this from more than one person.
 
All I'm saying is.. if Tim is the best bo staff whatever in the DCU and this is the fight that decided that. How can you say she was holding back? That's all I was ever trying to say.
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#475 Posted by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio
@SystemID said:
" @Static Shock: 
 
Okay then.... sweet. You have given me plenty of reasons to not think you are a d-bag anymore (no offense).  The edit I guess was bad timing on my part. I tried to do it quick.
 
Look.. honestly, I'm tired as ****. After you read the issue if you still think she was holding back then fine. I'll drop it. I just don't see it that way. Not only that. But if I remember correctly this fight even establishes Tim as the best staff fighter in the DCU. That's something I'll have to look up but I know I've heard this from more than one person.
 
All I'm saying is.. if Tim is the best bo staff whatever in the DCU and this is the fight that decided that. How can you say she was holding back? That's all I was ever trying to say. "
I get that a lot. Sometimes, I come off as a little too blunt. Force of a habit, I guess. 
 
I'll take another look. Can you tell me the issue number? I have trouble remembering them, most of the time. As far as Tim being the best staff fighter in DCU, it wouldn't doubt, considering it's his weapon of choice among other things.
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#476 Edited by SystemID (448 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:

" @SystemID said:

" @Static Shock: 
 
Okay then.... sweet. You have given me plenty of reasons to not think you are a d-bag anymore (no offense).  The edit I guess was bad timing on my part. I tried to do it quick.
 
Look.. honestly, I'm tired as ****. After you read the issue if you still think she was holding back then fine. I'll drop it. I just don't see it that way. Not only that. But if I remember correctly this fight even establishes Tim as the best staff fighter in the DCU. That's something I'll have to look up but I know I've heard this from more than one person.
 
All I'm saying is.. if Tim is the best bo staff whatever in the DCU and this is the fight that decided that. How can you say she was holding back? That's all I was ever trying to say. "

I get that a lot. Sometimes, I come off as a little too blunt. Force of a habit, I guess.   I'll take another look. Can you tell me the issue number? I have trouble remembering them, most of the time. As far as Tim being the best staff fighter in DCU, it wouldn't doubt, considering it's his weapon of choice among other things. "
 It's at the end of the 1st Robin mini-series. Five issues published in 91.'
 
I have only two of them. =(
 
EDIT: I meant middle of the series. I don't know why I said end. ...I did say I was tired.
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#477 Posted by Cochise (719 posts) - - Show Bio
@thegentlemanrogue said:
" I brought up Tim beating Shiva in a sparing match to highlight the absurdity of people pretending that Cass "beating" Bruce in a sparing match is relevant. No one in there right mind is going to say that Tim is more skilled than Shiva because he beat he in a sparing match... but some people will in the case of Batgirl and Batman. The teacher never goes all out in a sparing match, they have nothing to prove. Tim has beat Shiva. Natasha has beat Wolverine. Cass has beat Batman. Sparing matches are no indication of a real fight. "
Very good point. I've seen the same argument made for Black Canary being better in H2H than Wonder woman - because she scored a single point against her in a sparring match.
 


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#478 Edited by SystemID (448 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cochise said:

" @thegentlemanrogue said:

" I brought up Tim beating Shiva in a sparing match to highlight the absurdity of people pretending that Cass "beating" Bruce in a sparing match is relevant. No one in there right mind is going to say that Tim is more skilled than Shiva because he beat he in a sparing match... but some people will in the case of Batgirl and Batman. The teacher never goes all out in a sparing match, they have nothing to prove. Tim has beat Shiva. Natasha has beat Wolverine. Cass has beat Batman. Sparing matches are no indication of a real fight. "

Very good point. I've seen the same argument made for Black Canary being better in H2H than Wonder woman - because she scored a single point against her in a sparring match.  "
Those are called ignorant people. Black Canary better at h2h than WW? That's absurd. =D
 
Luckily, that's not why I'm talking about the Shiva/Drake fight. =)
 
EDIT: Told you I was tired.
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#479 Posted by Cochise (719 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
" @Cochise:  
I see. 
 
 
So, if you have daredevil who from the beginning had normal durability and no event  has changed that fact, he starts facing bloodlusted characters that have the strength of a 50 or 80 or 100 tons on regular basis and he takes hits from them. Does that mean that is valid? Does that mean that somehow, Daredevil has gained super human durability without a logical explanation? It means that he withstood those hits just for the plot. It's the same with what RLAAMJR said before. Without a logical explanation, feats that exceed the ability of a normal man can not be considered valid. Batgirl's aggregate speed is metahuman, so her feats are valid. Cap dodging bullets after they were fired, it's valid because he is enhanced human and he has the SSS. Logan dodging bullets it's valid because he is enhanced too and constantly taking hits from Hulk it's valid too, because he has adamantium bones. See, there is explanation for everything. But somehow, a man with no super human durability and no explanation or event that prove that he has.... and somehow taking hits from bloodlusted 100 toners constantly, it's still PIS. Consistency is not the only thing that determines PIS. Logic and explanation do too. =] "
We're talking about imaginary characters, not real people. If a comic book character consistently does something over and over, it's safe to assume that this character will be able to do that thing the next time they need to, in a fight or on this board, whether it makes real world sense or not.  Or to put it another way, a hypothesis is a proposed explanation for an observed phenomenon that can be used to predict future outcomes. Going by your hypothesis, a character who does something over and over in the comics WON'T be able to reproduce that here. Does that sound like a sound hypothesis that can be used to predict future events? No, it doesn't. 
 
To use your example, Daredevil can't take a straight-up hit from a Class 100 character, but his skill is great enough that when he does get tagged, he can roll with the blow to survive it. Is this valid in the real world? Of course not. But in comics, it is, and he does this on a regular basis. If you're finding that EVERY time you read a character you're saying "This is PIS!", maybe you should revise your estimate of the character.
 
What I don't get is why you think Daredevil consistently doing something superhuman is PIS, while Cassandra inconsistently doing something isn't. Cassandra has been stated - in her own series, by her creator - to not be a metahuman. You keep saying her "aggregate speed is metahuman" - what does this mean? The vast majority of her showings don't support her moving at speeds faster than a bullet. She's never had anything in her history to support her having superpowers. When she fights Robin, or Batman, or Deathstroke, or Shiva, or Conner, or Shadow Thief, etc. she isn't moving at this level of speed. So why assume she will on the Comic Vine Forum?
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#480 Posted by SystemID (448 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cochise said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @Cochise:  
I see. 
 
 
So, if you have daredevil who from the beginning had normal durability and no event  has changed that fact, he starts facing bloodlusted characters that have the strength of a 50 or 80 or 100 tons on regular basis and he takes hits from them. Does that mean that is valid? Does that mean that somehow, Daredevil has gained super human durability without a logical explanation? It means that he withstood those hits just for the plot. It's the same with what RLAAMJR said before. Without a logical explanation, feats that exceed the ability of a normal man can not be considered valid. Batgirl's aggregate speed is metahuman, so her feats are valid. Cap dodging bullets after they were fired, it's valid because he is enhanced human and he has the SSS. Logan dodging bullets it's valid because he is enhanced too and constantly taking hits from Hulk it's valid too, because he has adamantium bones. See, there is explanation for everything. But somehow, a man with no super human durability and no explanation or event that prove that he has.... and somehow taking hits from bloodlusted 100 toners constantly, it's still PIS. Consistency is not the only thing that determines PIS. Logic and explanation do too. =] "
We're talking about imaginary characters, not real people. If a comic book character consistently does something over and over, it's safe to assume that this character will be able to do that thing the next time they need to, in a fight or on this board, whether it makes real world sense or not.  Or to put it another way, a hypothesis is a proposed explanation for an observed phenomenon that can be used to predict future outcomes. Going by your hypothesis, a character who does something over and over in the comics WON'T be able to reproduce that here. Does that sound like a sound hypothesis that can be used to predict future events? No, it doesn't. 
 
To use your example, Daredevil can't take a straight-up hit from a Class 100 character, but his skill is great enough that when he does get tagged, he can roll with the blow to survive it. Is this valid in the real world? Of course not. But in comics, it is, and he does this on a regular basis. If you're finding that EVERY time you read a character you're saying "This is PIS!", maybe you should revise your estimate of the character.
 
What I don't get is why you think Daredevil consistently doing something superhuman is PIS, while Cassandra inconsistently doing something isn't. Cassandra has been stated - in her own series, by her creator - to not be a metahuman. You keep saying her "aggregate speed is metahuman" - what does this mean? The vast majority of her showings don't support her moving at speeds faster than a bullet. She's never had anything in her history to support her having superpowers. When she fights Robin, or Batman, or Deathstroke, or Shiva, or Conner, or Shadow Thief, etc. she isn't moving at this level of speed. So why assume she will on the Comic Vine Forum? "
Best argument about the actual thread I've read all night/morning. 

Now I must sleep!
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#481 Posted by deathlife (496 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cochise said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @Cochise:  
I see. 
 
 
So, if you have daredevil who from the beginning had normal durability and no event  has changed that fact, he starts facing bloodlusted characters that have the strength of a 50 or 80 or 100 tons on regular basis and he takes hits from them. Does that mean that is valid? Does that mean that somehow, Daredevil has gained super human durability without a logical explanation? It means that he withstood those hits just for the plot. It's the same with what RLAAMJR said before. Without a logical explanation, feats that exceed the ability of a normal man can not be considered valid. Batgirl's aggregate speed is metahuman, so her feats are valid. Cap dodging bullets after they were fired, it's valid because he is enhanced human and he has the SSS. Logan dodging bullets it's valid because he is enhanced too and constantly taking hits from Hulk it's valid too, because he has adamantium bones. See, there is explanation for everything. But somehow, a man with no super human durability and no explanation or event that prove that he has.... and somehow taking hits from bloodlusted 100 toners constantly, it's still PIS. Consistency is not the only thing that determines PIS. Logic and explanation do too. =] "
We're talking about imaginary characters, not real people. If a comic book character consistently does something over and over, it's safe to assume that this character will be able to do that thing the next time they need to, in a fight or on this board, whether it makes real world sense or not.  Or to put it another way, a hypothesis is a proposed explanation for an observed phenomenon that can be used to predict future outcomes. Going by your hypothesis, a character who does something over and over in the comics WON'T be able to reproduce that here. Does that sound like a sound hypothesis that can be used to predict future events? No, it doesn't. 
 
To use your example, Daredevil can't take a straight-up hit from a Class 100 character, but his skill is great enough that when he does get tagged, he can roll with the blow to survive it. Is this valid in the real world? Of course not. But in comics, it is, and he does this on a regular basis. If you're finding that EVERY time you read a character you're saying "This is PIS!", maybe you should revise your estimate of the character.
 
What I don't get is why you think Daredevil consistently doing something superhuman is PIS, while Cassandra inconsistently doing something isn't. Cassandra has been stated - in her own series, by her creator - to not be a metahuman. You keep saying her "aggregate speed is metahuman" - what does this mean? The vast majority of her showings don't support her moving at speeds faster than a bullet. She's never had anything in her history to support her having superpowers. When she fights Robin, or Batman, or Deathstroke, or Shiva, or Conner, or Shadow Thief, etc. she isn't moving at this level of speed. So why assume she will on the Comic Vine Forum? "
 
This.
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#482 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cochise said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @Cochise:  
I see. 
 
 
So, if you have daredevil who from the beginning had normal durability and no event  has changed that fact, he starts facing bloodlusted characters that have the strength of a 50 or 80 or 100 tons on regular basis and he takes hits from them. Does that mean that is valid? Does that mean that somehow, Daredevil has gained super human durability without a logical explanation? It means that he withstood those hits just for the plot. It's the same with what RLAAMJR said before. Without a logical explanation, feats that exceed the ability of a normal man can not be considered valid. Batgirl's aggregate speed is metahuman, so her feats are valid. Cap dodging bullets after they were fired, it's valid because he is enhanced human and he has the SSS. Logan dodging bullets it's valid because he is enhanced too and constantly taking hits from Hulk it's valid too, because he has adamantium bones. See, there is explanation for everything. But somehow, a man with no super human durability and no explanation or event that prove that he has.... and somehow taking hits from bloodlusted 100 toners constantly, it's still PIS. Consistency is not the only thing that determines PIS. Logic and explanation do too. =] "
We're talking about imaginary characters, not real people. If a comic book character consistently does something over and over, it's safe to assume that this character will be able to do that thing the next time they need to, in a fight or on this board, whether it makes real world sense or not.  Or to put it another way, a hypothesis is a proposed explanation for an observed phenomenon that can be used to predict future outcomes. Going by your hypothesis, a character who does something over and over in the comics WON'T be able to reproduce that here. Does that sound like a sound hypothesis that can be used to predict future events? No, it doesn't. 
 
To use your example, Daredevil can't take a straight-up hit from a Class 100 character, but his skill is great enough that when he does get tagged, he can roll with the blow to survive it. Is this valid in the real world? Of course not. But in comics, it is, and he does this on a regular basis. If you're finding that EVERY time you read a character you're saying "This is PIS!", maybe you should revise your estimate of the character.
 
What I don't get is why you think Daredevil consistently doing something superhuman is PIS, while Cassandra inconsistently doing something isn't. Cassandra has been stated - in her own series, by her creator - to not be a metahuman. You keep saying her "aggregate speed is metahuman" - what does this mean? The vast majority of her showings don't support her moving at speeds faster than a bullet. She's never had anything in her history to support her having superpowers. When she fights Robin, or Batman, or Deathstroke, or Shiva, or Conner, or Shadow Thief, etc. she isn't moving at this level of speed. So why assume she will on the Comic Vine Forum? "
OK then, since we are talking about imaginary characters, i'm going to assume that spidey beating Firelord it's valid. Both of them are imaginary so i will accept everything. All are non realistic. By your logic, there is no PIS because in a fake world, everything can happen. 
Daredevil rolling with this kind of hits against BLOODLUSTED super humans, it's obvious PIS. If he rolls with hits of people that holds back or are enhanced or Peak, its not PIS. We actually use logic here. We does not take every consistent thing they give us, if it does not make sense. 
Daredevil consistently doing super human feats, it's PIS because no event has changed the fact that he is NO super human. 
Cassandra is inconsistent? 
Let's see 
 Under 1 SECOND, she was fast enough to move her legs and punches to beat 6 thugs!
 Under 1 SECOND, she was fast enough to move her legs and punches to beat 6 thugs!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  Moving fast enough to make these guys to lose their balance....!  
 

 

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

  She dodges a bullet that it reached almost her head. 
 
 
 Here she outruns a bullet
 Here she outruns a bullet
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Her individual movements are of a normal human. Her aggregate speed is metahuman as it has been stated by an expert. 
She can do many things at once, that humans can not do unless it's only one of those things. 
Yeah, she fights people that has the ability to react to bullets in a way that proves that they can react at faster things. Cap can do the same thing, but he is not aware of Cass' body reading ability. And the only LOGICAL explanation on why some people manage to tag her, it's because they use her ability in their favor. Otherwise, no logical explanation shows how people could tag her. 
=]
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#483 Posted by spidey 15 (17883 posts) - - Show Bio
@thegentlemanrogue said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @thegentlemanrogue said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @thegentlemanrogue: What is this? =] "
Captain America owning Cache, a repository of all of humanities knowledge who knows every fighting style in the world. "
I see. And you posted it because........ =] "
Because that's what will happen to Cass. :D "
lol
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#484 Edited by Cochise (719 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said: 
 
OK then, since we are talking about imaginary characters, i'm going to assume that spidey beating Firelord it's valid. Both of them are imaginary so i will accept everything. All are non realistic. By your logic, there is no PIS because in a fake world, everything can happen.

 
No, you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that PIS doesn't exist. I said that the key to determining what's PIS or not is consistency. I don't care how a character has the ability to do something - being bitten by a spider, rubbing a magic lamp, intense training - as long as they are consistent.  Spider-Man beating a herald of Galactus is inconsistent with Spidey's other showings. You couldn't predict the outcome of a fight between Spidey and, say, Terrax, based on his fight with Firelord. However, Daredevil consistently survives the punches of superstrong people by rolling with them. He does that through skill and training, not by his opponent holding back.
 
We actually use logic here. We does not take every consistent thing they give us, if it does not make sense.

Not sure who "we" is but yes, if something is shown consistently, it should be accepted. "Making sense" is a very vague term in the world of comic books. 
 
Daredevil consistently doing super human feats, it's PIS because no event has changed the fact that he is NO super human.
 
I'm not sure why you're discounting Daredevil's abilities because he's not a superhuman, but at the same time allowing similar abilities to Cassandra, who also isn't a superhuman. If anything, DD is more of a superhuman than Cassandra. DD was bathed in radioactive chemicals and trained with mystic ninjas. Cassandra has no such thing in her history, all she did was train with her dad. She has no metagene. She wasn't exposed to any magic and didn't have any super genes spliced into her DNA, or any other comic book-type source of superpowers.
 
Her individual movements are of a normal human. Her aggregate speed is metahuman as it has been stated by an expert. She can do many things at once, that humans can not do unless it's only one of those things. 
 
 Yes, she's great at multitasking. She can juggle while fighting. This goes along with what is stated in her comic by her creator, who also stated that she wasn't superhuman.
 
And the only LOGICAL explanation on why some people manage to tag her, it's because they use her ability in their favor. 
 
Not sure what you mean here.
 
Again, let me ask you: if Cassandra has the consistent ability to outrun a bullet, why doesn't she use this level of speed when fighting Shiva, Batman, Robin, Deathstroke, Shadow Thief, etc.?  Why was she getting clobbered by Batman when she lost her body reading? If she was truly that fast, she wouldn't have needed her speed to avoid those hits. And before you say, "PIS!", remember that this was a major plot point in her formative issues written by her creator.
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#485 Posted by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America wins.

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#486 Posted by Dark King (4029 posts) - - Show Bio

@ spidey
 
aggregated simply means she is using her combined attributes to the limit of the human body all at the same time.. it was explicitly explained in the comic where you pulled your scan.
 
she isnt meta human it doesnt mean she is meta human.. she is peak in all areas for her size and weight plus training making her better then an olympically trained human.
 
she runs as fast as the fastest human runner, she is as strong as the strongest person of her weight and size, she thinks at the fastest lvl's reaction and when she combines all those she is a beast ,it isnt meta.
 
that doesnt mean she equals Cap physically neither in speed, strength nor kinetic energy.. Batgirl's marvel equivalent is the perfect human specimen which would be the scarlet spider clones.. they were at the pinnicle of human perfection  in physical attributes for weight and size and simply missing the batgirl skills... 
 
Cap isnt the model standard for your peak marvel human... DD is close to being peak himself in various areas, just like kingpin is peak in strength, Punisher is Peak in durability/damage soak and none of them really reach Cap's current standard..
 
if we really expect Batgirl to be equal to Cap she would have to be 3 times as fast as your peak/olympic hero... she would have to be stronger then a man twice her size, inexhaustible stamina and  high end endurance who hauls humvees through desert heat......... she would have to be stronger then cable a techno enhanced hero who admits cap's superiority.... aggregated does not mean double nor triple the abilities of an olympic or peak athlete which Batgirl is not but Cap has bn stated to being.
 
now you said that Batgirl has only bn hit due to certain circumstance... i pulled out my batgirl collection and only had to go to issue 3 to find her get grabbed and slammed into the ground in a fight with a brick thug enforcer,,, she went in elbowed and kicked the guy in the throat jumped over him kneed him in the back of the neck. the guy grabs her leg slams her on the ground... she gets back up hits him 3 more times all nerve hits and ko'es the guy.. she then passes out herself the fight lasted less then 2 minutes only about 6 to 7 hits at most...batman shows up and picks her up... this does not sound like the unhittable fighting machine ppl make her out to be.
the guy she fought was barely superhuman he didnt display any fighting skills or superhuman strength simply barely superhuman durability no more impressive then kingpin/punisher or bane..at best the guys strength was  between 800 to 2 tons...how is she gonna fight someone who has solidified strength speed and fighting skills and doesnt tire when she can barely beat some one like that. granted it was early on but it shows she isnt superhuman herself. and she has limits, limits that can be reached.
 
Captain America wouldnt be that impressed with her at least not to the point that she could beat him.

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#487 Posted by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio

In regards to her ability to outrun a bullet, it was impressive. But, she only did it once. Captain America outran bullets in the Avengers: Red Zone arc (beat them to the target after they were fired to deflect them with his shield). But, it only happened once.
 
I don't think Cap or Cass are really that fast. But, the showing in which she moved so fast that normal human thugs couldn't see her is impressive. She did it more than once. However, that level of speed would only work on the normal, untrained eyes. Against other trained fighters (Shiva, Nightwing, Batman, etc), they wouldn't have a problem with her speed. Captain America, being an enhanced-human being (and claimed that his perceptions/reflexes were enough for him to see faster than bullets can move, allowing him to bullet-time to some effect), wouldn't be overwhelmed by her speed in battle, nor would he lack the ability to see her move like normal thugs would.

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#488 Posted by thegentlemanrogue (721 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" In regards to her ability to outrun a bullet, it was impressive. But, she only did it once. Captain America outran bullets in the Avengers: Red Zone arc (beat them to the target after they were fired to deflect them with his shield). But, it only happened once.
 
I don't think Cap or Cass are really that fast. But, the showing in which she moved so fast that normal human thugs couldn't see her is impressive. She did it more than once. However, that level of speed would only work on the normal, untrained eyes. Against other trained fighters (Shiva, Nightwing, Batman, etc), they wouldn't have a problem with her speed. Captain America, being an enhanced-human being (and claimed that his perceptions/reflexes were enough for him to see faster than bullets can move, allowing him to bullet-time to some effect), wouldn't be overwhelmed by her speed in battle, nor would he lack the ability to see her move like normal thugs would. "
Yeah I would agree with that. If Cap or Cass where to actually physically to out pacing a bullet, it would require speed of upwards of 1000mph, or more depending on the gun. Now Batgirl's feat has a little more wingel room in the believebility department since we don't see her position releitive to shooter as the gun is being fired... but they are both ridiculous impractical  feats. Twitch reflexes and moving a few inches to the left or the right of the bullets hit box is one thing, but actually out running a bullet a completely different.
 
Cap has several of those "too fast for the untrained eye feats," under his belt as well.
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#489 Edited by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:

" In regards to her ability to outrun a bullet, it was impressive. But, she only did it once. Captain America outran bullets in the Avengers: Red Zone arc (beat them to the target after they were fired to deflect them with his shield). But, it only happened once.
 
I don't think Cap or Cass are really that fast. But, the showing in which she moved so fast that normal human thugs couldn't see her is impressive. She did it more than once. However, that level of speed would only work on the normal, untrained eyes. Against other trained fighters (Shiva, Nightwing, Batman, etc), they wouldn't have a problem with her speed. Captain America, being an enhanced-human being (and claimed that his perceptions/reflexes were enough for him to see faster than bullets can move, allowing him to bullet-time to some effect), wouldn't be overwhelmed by her speed in battle, nor would he lack the ability to see her move like normal thugs would. "

Nice. I completely agree. Plus, Cap has zoomed by thugs as well and they had no idea what happened. 
 
Cap has 
-more feats, 
-feats that are just as impressive, 
-and feats that extend beyond anything Cassandra has done. As much PIS as anyone wants to claim, his PIS feats are consistent.
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#490 Posted by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon: Which PIS feats are you referring to? Things like KO'ing the Hulk and other things related don't really make a lick of sense. LOL.
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#491 Posted by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @superdemon: Which PIS feats are you referring to? Things like KO'ing the Hulk and other things related don't really make a lick of sense. LOL. "
I know they don't. But he's done it so many times, it's consistent. Consistency = consistency. Nothing we can do about it except accept it.
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#492 Posted by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon said:
"I know they don't. But he's done it so many times, it's consistent. Consistency = consistency. Nothing we can do about it except accept it. "
Just because something is consistent doesn't mean that it makes sense, though. I can accept Captain America using leverage to fight the Hulk, or others like Starfox or Thunderstrike. But, I can't accept his ability to KO him, when people stronger than Cap have either been unable to do it or had a hard time doing it. At the same time, Captain America actually has more feats that are acceptable for his characters as opposed to the outrageous ones. It would be different if it were Karate Kid, because all his character consists of is PIS. Nothing he does makes sense. It doesn't hold true for Cap.
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#493 Posted by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @superdemon said:
"I know they don't. But he's done it so many times, it's consistent. Consistency = consistency. Nothing we can do about it except accept it. "
Just because something is consistent doesn't mean that it makes sense, though. I can accept Captain America using leverage to fight the Hulk, or others like Starfox or Thunderstrike. But, I can't accept his ability to KO him, when people stronger than Cap have either been unable to do it or had a hard time doing it. At the same time, Captain America actually has more feats that are acceptable for his characters as opposed to the outrageous ones. It would be different if it were Karate Kid, because all his character consists of is PIS. Nothing he does makes sense. It doesn't hold true for Cap. "
As long as it's consistent I, personally, have no choice but to accept it. A one time thing is different.
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#494 Posted by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon: I respect your opinion.
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#495 Edited by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:

" @superdemon: I respect your opinion. "

Technically, I agree with you though. 
 
However, in a world of fiction and things that don't make sense anyway, it's not that far fetched to accept it. Plus, my imagination gets the best of me.
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#496 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio

First of all, the consistency of one feat does not translate to everything else. If Steve regularly has difficulty with street levelers, like Crossbones, Red Skull, Zemo, Black Panther, etc., and he does, then saying that his consistently fighting higher tier characters means nothing. That one feat may be consistent, but when taking all of his other showings into account, it begins to lack consistency. BatMan has fought Despero, Wonder Woman, Triumph, Captain Marvel, etc. His fighting higher tier characters without prep or abusing a weakness is consistent. Does that make it consistent with all of his other showings? No. Why? Because BatMan regularly has trouble with street levelers like Bane, Deathstroke, Ra's al Ghul, etc. So his showings in fighting SuperMan-level+ powerhouses may be consistent, but when in comparison with his showings as a whole, it is not by any means consistent. Second, Batgirl has had run-ins with Supergirl and Superboy. Steve is not the only one who has had PIS or circumstantial fights with powerhouse characters. Third, even if that was the case, Steve fighting Hulk, for instance, is not comparable to fighting Batgirl. The two fights are completely unrelated. There is nothing similar about them, in any way, shape, or form. Fighting Hulk, Steve would have to utilize is speed, agility, and shield to avoid and defend from Hulk's attacks. In a fight with Batgirl, he would have to engage her using his martial prowess, taking the combat disciplines he learned to try to outdo her in a hand to hand fight. 

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#497 Posted by Static Shock (53032 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467: Don't forget Batman's 'uncanny' ability to fight Aquaman hand-to-hand when Deathstroke couldn't even hurt him in a physical fight.
 
LOL.
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#498 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: Haha.  
 
I am still trying to figure out why Cap's fights with Hulk or Namor were even brought up. What does that even have to do with fighting Batgirl anyway, the PIS-ness of the fights aside?
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#499 Edited by superdemon (2326 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:

" @Static Shock: Haha.   I am still trying to figure out why Cap's fights with Hulk or Namor were even brought up. What does that even have to do with fighting Batgirl anyway, the PIS-ness of the fights aside? "

It shows me he's capable of contending with such characters. And such characters would make mince meat of Batgirl.
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#500 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon: @Silver2467 said:
" First of all, the consistency of one feat does not translate to everything else. If Steve regularly has difficulty with street levelers, like Crossbones, Red Skull, Zemo, Black Panther, etc., and he does, then saying that his consistently fighting higher tier characters means nothing. That one feat may be consistent, but when taking all of his other showings into account, it begins to lack consistency. BatMan has fought Despero, Wonder Woman, Triumph, Captain Marvel, etc. His fighting higher tier characters without prep or abusing a weakness is consistent. Does that make it consistent with all of his other showings? No. Why? Because BatMan regularly has trouble with street levelers like Bane, Deathstroke, Ra's al Ghul, etc. So his showings in fighting SuperMan-level+ powerhouses may be consistent, but when in comparison with his showings as a whole, it is not by any means consistent. Second, Batgirl has had run-ins with Supergirl and Superboy. Steve is not the only one who has had PIS or circumstantial fights with powerhouse characters. Third, even if that was the case, Steve fighting Hulk, for instance, is not comparable to fighting Batgirl. The two fights are completely unrelated. There is nothing similar about them, in any way, shape, or form. Fighting Hulk, Steve would have to utilize is speed, agility, and shield to avoid and defend from Hulk's attacks. In a fight with Batgirl, he would have to engage her using his martial prowess, taking the combat disciplines he learned to try to outdo her in a hand to hand fight.  "